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    Day 28 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

    Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 11.2)

        1996 I. No. 113
      2  Royal Courts of Justice
      3  Strand, London
      4  Wednesday, 1st March 2000
      6  Before:
    10  Claimant -and-
    13  Defendants
    14  The Claimant appeared in person
    15  MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
    16  Second Defendants
    17  MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
    18  MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
    19  the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
    21  (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
         & Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
    22  Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
    23  (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
         Counsell & Company)
    .           P-1

      1  (10.30 a.m.)
      2  < Professor Funke, recalled.
      3  < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Irving?
      5  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have put two small bundles in front of
      6  your Lordship. One is a bundle of photographs which I do
      7  not propose to dwell very much on. I think I will spend
      8  10 seconds looking at each one with the witness. They are
      9  photographs of German meetings. They are minor points to
    10  be made possibly on each of the photographs. Some of he
    11  meetings we are familiar with, and some not.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    13  MR IRVING:  The second bundle, my Lord, I have yesterday taken
    14  the Eichmann papers, which is what I am now holding in my
    15  hand. I have converted them to hard copy. I would be
    16  quite happy to make that available to the Defence. I have
    17  extracted five or six pages already, which are the only
    18  pages I have found with a word search for “Fuhrer” or
    19  “Hitler” in any substance. They may help the Defence,
    20  they may help me, I have not really looked at them, but
    21  I have put them there in case there is any need for
    22  immediate action on them.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you are not going to deal with them
    24  with this witness anyway?
    25  MR IRVING:  No, my Lord.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So we will put that on one side.
    .           P-2

      1  MR IRVING:  Except that lower down on the same bundle there are
      2  one or two things that I probably will draw the witness’s
      3  attention to.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, do we have a list of the alleged
      5  extremists?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, we do.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was thinking it might be helpful to have it
      8  at this stage.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. So, it is a list of the alleged extremists,
    10  it is a list of the important ones for this part of the
    11  case. There is an “Others” category which really does not
    12  directly concern Professor Funke.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right. Yes, Professor?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I add three remarks from yesterday?
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, if you wish to.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: When?
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, now.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK, good. I rethought the coverage of 9th November ’91 in
    19  Halle and, to my best knowledge, the NB, the National
    20  Bloc, is not as I said from the Ruhr area, but from
    21  Bavaria under the leader of Manfred Eichmann. This is the
    22  first.
    23  The second, I did not get the protocol of
    24  yesterday, so — the minutes of yesterday, so I do not
    25  know if I got special question of David Irving right. So
    26  in the case I did not I want just to state that in those
    .           P-3

      1  pictures we saw he did not allude to direct forms of
      2  anti-Semitism, but that does not mean that he did not do
      3  this in the German, you know, appearances, and also if you
      4  see the whole text of the speech in Munich, I would claim
      5  this has anti-Semitic sentiments in it. The second one.
      6  MR IRVING:  Which speech in Munich are you referring to?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yours.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well I spoke in Munich about 30 or 40 times probably.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The one we saw on the video, I imagine.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Can I intervene at that stage, to point something
    11  out, and it is this. If we are talking about the first
    12  Munich meeting, the one which has “Wahrheit macht frei”
    13  and David Irving’s name on the placard underneath it. Our
    14  understanding from the diary of Mr Irving, first of all,
    15  is that he spoke twice at that meeting, once before the
    16  interval and once after.
    17  The second thing, we learned from his reply,
    18  that he spoke altogether for about an hour, and that he
    19  said he was going to rely on the text of what he said at
    20  the trial of this action.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have not had anything?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I have never had the tape or a transcript of it.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Mr Irving, what about that?
    24  MR IRVING:  My Lord, obviously, at one time I had anticipated
    25  that I had a tape of it. In fact, I think there is
    26  correspondence indicating that I believed I did have a
    .           P-4

      1  tape of it, but I have disclosed all my tapes and
      2  cassettes to the defence in this matter, nothing has been
      3  withheld. I had no idea what was on the video cassettes
      4  because I did not have a video player.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the light of that, Mr Rampton, I think it
      6  has to be left to cross-examination.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  Well, I think it will. There are some other
      8  things I want to raise in relation to discovery in
      9  cross-examination. I am a little concerned, however,
    10  about the time-scale, because the cross-examination of
    11  Mr Irving by me, which might last a day, or a day and a
    12  bit, I hope we will be finished this week.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So do I.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  That will be the last of the evidence. I cannot
    15  say any more than that.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, obviously, I am not going to cut off
    17  Mr Irving. I have given an indication that I think the
    18  scope of cross-examination of this witness is relatively
    19  limited. You have, if I may say so, taken hints in the
    20  past, but you must take your own course, this is not a
    21  direction of any sort.
    22  MR IRVING:  Next week, of course, I will have some submissions
    23  to make.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course. You both will. Anyway, shall we
    25  press on? Is there anything else?
    26  MR RAMPTON:  Is it appropriate to say something about, if we
    .           P-5

      1  are talking about closing speeches, about timing, at this
      2  juncture?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we wait until after we have dealt with
      4  (if I may so put it that way) Professor Funke?
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It is only this, that there are a number of people
      6  here, and I do not shrink from saying, including me —-
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Oh, I see, you mean how long an interval? Is
      8  that what you are getting at?
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, because there are “social” is the wrong word,
    10  but there are what one might call arrangements which have
    11  to be made. I have been talking earnestly with
    12  Miss Rogers, as I often do, and we are very anxious
    13  because of what might happen here after in another place,
    14  as the lawyers call it, that we leave no stone unturned to
    15  make sure that your Lordship has as much material as we
    16  would like you to have. Of course, I say without any kind
    17  of sycophancy, that I am confident that the case is in
    18  place already, but I cannot actually, in my client’s
    19  interests, take that risk. Therefore, we want to do a
    20  long rather than a short job. I can do a short job. I
    21  can probably do it from memory, but I do not want to do
    22  that. It did seem to us we would need at least a week to
    23  get the thing properly in place. I am strongly of the
    24  view, as an advocate, I do remember, like your Lordship,
    25  in those days being of similar view, I think that it is
    26  not desirable that the Defendant makes a speech before a
    .           P-6

      1  weekend and the Claimant or Plaintiff after the weekend.
      2  Both should come in the same week.
      3  My proposal is that I should start on Monday
      4  13th, which is a week from the coming Monday and that
      5  Mr Irving should have as much time as he likes thereafter,
      6  subject, obviously, to case control.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, do you have any views about that?
      8  MR IRVING:  Whether it would be Monday 13th or not I think is
      9  in the stars, because if Mr Rampton wishes to have a clear
    10  week, presumably, that clear week starts running from the
    11  end of the time I have put in documents and so on by way
    12  of submission, which may take more than a day.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, well, what I would be inclined to think
    14  in terms of, and we might have to revise this, is to have
    15  the whole of next week for preparing speeches, and if we
    16  do not finish the evidence by close of play on Thursday,
    17  then I think perhaps we can nibble into the week, because
    18  it seems to me that Monday the 13th would be a good day to
    19  have as a target for the start of closing speeches.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  I would rather nibble into Friday if it came to
    21  it.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do not dispute that at all.
    23  MR IRVING:  I am afraid I do, because there is a German saying
    24  (German spoken) which means that a lot of dogs spell death
    25  to the hare, and there is a lot of dogs on the other side
    26  with no disrespect and there is one hare on this side.
    .           P-7

      1  I am carrying the ball entirely myself.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow that.
      3  MR IRVING:  I cherish every day that I have for preparation.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I tell you what I propose to deal with that,
      5  is for you to have the opportunity to indicate during the
      6  course of that week, the week prior to 13th March, that
      7  you falling behind or whatever, if you really need more
      8  time, I do not myself think you will because you have a
      9  great capacity for getting through the material, but if
    10  you are finding it difficult then obviously I would be
    11  very sympathetic to further time.
    12  MR IRVING:  I do not necessarily see the reason why it has to
    13  be a Monday Mr Rampton has to start unless he intends to
    14  speak for three whole days.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I doubt he will speak for three whole days but he
    16  might speak for the best part of one whole day.
    17  MR IRVING:  That will allow both speeches to come within of
    18  compass of one week.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. I do not mind, I was not (to use a bit of
    20  Latin) I was not trying to fix Monday, 13th, as a terminus
    21  post quo nome, but as a terminus quo nome, if I can put it
    22  like that, meaning to say that I do not mind when it is,
    23  but I do not want it before Monday 13th.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are thinking in broadly the same
    25  terms.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  I would only make other observation, it is not
    .           P-8

      1  right for Mr Irving to talk about dogs and hares when
      2  after all it is a pack of hares that is being chased by
      3  one dog.
      4  MR IRVING:  Rabbits.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Professor Funke, you have something
      6  else to say? You did only mention two, yes.
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. It relates to the Congress of 21st April ’90 in
      8  Munich. I read the diary again and there is clearly
      9  described how and what form it was illegal, and that was
    10  the reference I had also to write it in my report. It was
    11  illegal demonstration after the Congress, and it is stated
    12  very clearly. The other thing I have to mention that to
    13  my best assessment the diary and the video converts to
    14  that, that at a given period of time he was with
    15  marching.
    16  THE INTERPRETER:  Marching along with?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Along with Kuhnen and the others towards the Vertherren
    18  Halle. I think it is very clear if you put these things
    19  together and also the letters Mr Irving gave us yesterday
    20  in the bundle J.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for
    22  those three points. Mr Irving?
    23  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach
    24  much attention to whether other members of the audience
    25  went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not.
    26  I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to
    .           P-9

      1  have a look at page 11 of the little bundle.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This new one or the old one.
      3  MR IRVING:  It is today’s bundle.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Today’s bundle? OK.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is the bundle beginning with some German pages. If you
      6  look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April
      7  21st 1990, is that correct?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I have here —-
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, not photographs. It is another bundle.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. It is a new bundle of yesterday?
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Of today.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Today, OK, good.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 11. Is this the diary entry to which you have just
    14  referred?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems to, yes, in a different written form.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: A different format, yes?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, format.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry
    19  out, of course, but I would just invite this witness —-
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in
    21  RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry,
    22  April 21st.
    23  MS ROGERS:  If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages
    24  19 to 20.
    25  MR IRVING:  My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this
    26  morning’s bundle is the entire diary entry. I am not sure
    .           P-10

      1  how far the entry has been redacted, if at all, in RW—-
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on with it.

    Part II: Irving Resumes Cross-Examination of Dr. Funke (11.3-151.25)

    Section 11.3 to 21.17

      3  MR IRVING:  Would you just run your eye down those two pages
      4  which I have given you?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Beginning with the first page, page 11, the second
      7  paragraph?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Beginning with the phrase: “The audience stormed out into
    10  the streets”?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Taking about half an hour to assemble outside, I remained
    13  inside”, does it say that?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: How could I have joined a demonstration if I remained
    16  inside?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Look —-
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Selling books, pack —-
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — look further down to your own diary.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then it says: “Job finished. The driver suggested he
    21  drive me to the Hotel Dreilogen?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Via the route”, in other words, “driving by the route
    24  taken by this spontaneous demonstration”?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: So I was not part of the demonstration; I was driving past
    .           P-11

      1  it to see what the fuss was because there had been police
      2  flashing lights, and so on? Right?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I see it.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: “I got out of the car” — this is four lines from the
      5  bottom “because I sighted my dinner guests. Crossed to
      6  say hello to them. There was some annoyance on the part
      7  of the demonstrators that I had not been with them”. Did
      8  you see that? Why did you not quote that?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, right.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: I was not part of the demonstration. I do not really
    11  want, unless you wish to draw attention to any other parts
    12  of that diary entry?
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suspect he wants to read on to the bottom
    14  of the page, is that right?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Shall I read it to the court?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: No. Read the bits of it that you rely on.
    17  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So, “I sighted Uschi who had invited me to dinner. Got
    19  out of car after Daniel Hecht”, I think, “crossed to say
    20  hello to them. Some annoyance on the 250’s part that
    21  I had not been with them. I explained I had to pack
    22  things up. Two minutes later police trucks arrived with
    23  reinforcements. Announced over loud speakers, ‘Dieses ist
    24  ein angemieldete Sammlung, es ist verbotten. Sie haben
    25  alle nach Hausen zugehen'”. “This is an illegal
    26  demonstration”. I can translate it shortly. If you want
    .           P-12

      1  it precise, do it, yes.
      2  THE INTERPRETER:  “This is a translation (sic) which no notice
      3  has been given of. It is forbidden. You are all
      4  requested to go home”?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. And I refer to this being “forbidden” in my
      6  report —-
      7  THE INTERPRETER:  Ordered to go home?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — or words to that effect.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He adds, so then: “Road cordons were thrown across the
    11  street ahead of us and we were told to filter through
    12  single and disperse. I found myself in an embarrassing
    13  position, unwilling to desert audience, but equally
    14  unwilling to end up being coshed by a policeman”.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Coshed by a policeman?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. “I filtered forwards and after minutes hold up I was
    17  allowed through by the cordons. 30 seconds later I was
    18  arrested by a small Italian-looking moustached police
    19  officer aged perhaps 35 who declared me to be a
    20  versammlungsleiter”.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: We do not need the rest.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is the point. If you take this part and see the
    23  video, there is the moustached and so forth officer and
    24  you see before, you know, a march route of a given
    25  people. In the front Mr Irving, behind Michael Kuhnen.
    26  So, of course, it was some minutes, but you were asked by
    .           P-13

      1  the crowd to enter and you did.
      2  MR IRVING:  You say some minutes. Can I ask you about the
      3  time-scale?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know the time-scale. I just saw the video and
      5  I saw your diary and I saw another clip of Althans given
      6  to Zundel or by Zundel presenting the case further down in
      7  this document.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I draw your attention to the second line of that
      9  second paragraph on page 11: “I remained inside selling
    10  the books, packaging them up and supervising their loading
    11  into the two cars”. How long do you think that took?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: £2,000 worth of books had to be packaged into boxes, the
    14  boxes sealed, loaded into two cars — three quarters of an
    15  hour, an hour?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have no problem with that. I did not say you went all
    17  along, I do not know, maybe. There is, by the way, if
    18  I may add this, there is a longer version of this video,
    19  and if it is necessary, if this is a decisive point for
    20  the assessment, if I may add —-
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not strike me as a decisive point. I
    22  think we can move on.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Then I would ask to get this to the court, but it is very
    24  difficult because it is in the hands of Michael Schmidt
    25  and I have to figure out where he is.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know what the issue is.
    .           P-14

      1  MR IRVING:  One more question and this is will you accept,
      2  because I asked you this question two or three times
      3  yesterday, the video shows clearly that these rather
      4  bestraggled demonstrators are actually returning from the
      5  demonstration they had been off to at the time I joined
      6  them and they are heading north —-
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That does not fit.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Excuse me, they are heading north at the time I joined
      9  them, in other words, it is all over — and do you
    10  remember me asking you these questions yesterday?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you made out that you could not recognize the victory
    13  monument behind them and so on?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is no probability for that. You know, it fits so
    15  well with what you are writing in the diary and what is
    16  shown in the video that I cannot say “yes” to this
    17  question.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: So you do not accept that it took me one hour to load the
    19  boxes of books into the car and to drive off to the hotel
    20  and then come back and find the demonstrators walking back
    21  from their demonstration at this time this misfortune
    22  happened?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean, you had a lot of books to sell, but you need not
    24  an hour. I do not know how long it took.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. Would you now just have a brief look at
    26  photographs, please? The second bundle of photographs.
    .           P-15

      1  We will go through these very quickly. Photographs 1 and
      2  2 are photographs of a meeting of the DVU. Can you see
      3  their flag around the podium?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not with this coverage, I mean.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: All right.
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot see.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you look at the people sitting in the audience there,
      8  can you see any skinheads or bovver boots?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot see. It is so dark, you see, your Lordship. I
    10  cannot see it. Maybe —-
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Look at page 2. It is better.
    12  MR IRVING:  Perhaps you can borrow mine a second.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is better, excuse me.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you see any skinheads or bovver boots or musclemen?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say yes or no, because, you know, in the first,
    16  in the first lines they are all with ties and, you know,
    17  as DVU presents itself.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the next photograph is a bit clearer?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But I cannot say yes to your question because afterwards
    20  it is totally unclear and I know that DVU has this kind of
    21  skinhead appearances.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is that photograph.
    23  MR IRVING:  Can you see any banners around the hall with
    24  anti-Semitic slogans or Holocaust slogans or anything at
    25  all?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    .           P-16

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: No banners at all?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: The next photograph, page 3, please?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 3?
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does this appear to be police protecting a rather pleasant
      6  country building against a number of young people?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems to.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What is it?
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is in Cologne. I will have to tell you, you will have
    11  to just take my word for where these places are. The
    12  places are not important really. The next photograph,
    13  photograph 5 — we will just go through them very quickly
    14  — is the Congress Centre in Hamburg?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you see again a line of police protecting the building
    17  against, no doubt, unfriendly people outside?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say unfriendly, I just see police caps.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Shoulder to shoulder, massed against — protecting the
    20  entrance to the building?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say anything else because it is unclear. I do
    22  not know where and when, so…
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You may say.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you like to have a look at photograph No. 9,
    26  please? This is the Palace of Culture from Dresden which
    .           P-17

      1  is one of the lectures you refer to, 13th February 1990,
      2  I think. There are no kinds of banners or placards or
      3  anything anywhere, are there?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems not. There is a picture, you know, I think you
      5  are speaking there, and —-
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: And a picture of myself on the podium?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, seems to, but I do not know what is written around,
      8  above and…
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, we cannot read that.
    10  MR IRVING:  Photograph No. 10 is obviously some years earlier?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does it look as though I am addressing members of the
    13  German Bundeswehr that this is obviously a function —-
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, seems to, at least the uniforms they are wearing.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Photograph No. 11 is the Leuchter press conference to
    16  which you refer. It is a sparsely attended press
    17  conference?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it?
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you got photograph No. 11?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, but where?
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is in my home in London.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Photograph 12, another typical speech that I address in
    24  Germany?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it?
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is somewhere in Battenwurtenburg, Singlfingen,
    .           P-18

      1  I think?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Is it Dria?
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it does not really matter, does it?
      5  I am not sure these photographs are helping all that much,
      6  Mr Irving.
      7  MR IRVING:  There are no placards, no skinheads. No. 14,
      8  I think you probably have my labels now?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, Hagenau you say?
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: No. 14 is Hagenau.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you see any of your suspects in that photograph?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What are you saying?
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Any of your suspects, like Remer or Kussel or any of these
    15  names you are talking about? Are they in that photograph
    16  or the next one?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to put up this…
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: These photographs were all available for discovery, my
    19  Lord, and not used. Photograph No. 16 —-
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Wait, wait. I have to see the people. Excuse me. It is
    21  not so easy. You know better. It is just 10 faces to 10
    22  faces, right, to see and whatever 80, I cannot see.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you say it is a very extremist just by the look of
    24  it?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you cannot possibly answer from the
    26  backs of people’s heads whether they are extremist.
    .           P-19

      1  MR IRVING:  Precisely. Your Lordship has made exactly the
      2  point I was hoping that the witness would make.
      3  Photograph 16, is that the Lowebrau Bierhall in Munich?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know, maybe.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Obviously dressed up for some kind of function, listening
      6  to me speak?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it? When is it?
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: In Munich.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: When is it?
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Probably about 1984, thereabouts, 1989. That again is the
    11  kind of audience — they do not look particularly extreme
    12  or violent?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In ’94 you were in Germany?
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, ’84. No. 17, there is a meeting to which you refer.
    15  Is it not a demonstration, photograph No. 17?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: German historians, liars and cowards?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Who is the left person?
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is Mr Pedro Varela. Do you recognise him?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Does he look like a violent person or extreme?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, again….
    23  MR IRVING:  The point is it is difficult to judge by
    24  appearances. I mean, I might be violent or extreme. The
    25  point I am trying to make, witness, and would you agree
    26  with, is, it is difficult to tell when you look at an
    .           P-20

      1  audience who the people are? We do not know who is in
      2  this court room, we might have John George Hague, the acid
      3  bath murderer. He might be one of these members of the
      4  public or someone like that and we do not know, do we?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, the case against you is not that
      6  these people look like extremists, but that they have a
      7  track record of extremism and that you associated with
      8  them. So I do not think we want to spend terribly long on
      9  their physical appearance.
    10  MR IRVING:  Yes. But unless I am mistaken also the case
    11  against me is in part that these extremist organisations
    12  that I have been addressing, you would have expected all
    13  the trappings, “bovva boots”, skinheads and flags —
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow that point.
    15  MR IRVING:  And the rest of it. These, on the face of it,
    16  these meetings appear to be respectable, middle-class,
    17  rather boring lectures.

    Section 21.18 to 59.9

    18  (To the Witness) Now I would like to return to
    19  your report, please, page 39.
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: You refer to the NPD, can I ask you the simple question;
    22  is the NPD illegal or banned?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second. What page?
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 39 of your report.
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So be it.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is the NPD — it is a political party in Germany, is it
    .           P-21

      1  not?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it illegal or banned?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is not banned.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: So there is no reason why one should not address if one
      6  was invited to a function organized by NPD, or is there?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I stated yesterday it is formally not legal, but it is
      8  perceived by the social sciences, as well as by the
      9  official institutions as a hardcore, right-wing extremist.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, well, we know how much weight we have attach to that,
    11  I think.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, we are different on that.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but the left wing —
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, do not argue about it, we have the
    15  evidence.
    16  MR IRVING:  You mention Franz Schonhuber, I am not going to
    17  dwell upon him, but he was a popular Bavarian television
    18  host?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which is how I first came to know him. I was on his show,
    21  is that correct?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not —
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: So that is how I first came to know him. Lower down that
    24  page you refer to a man at 4.1.3, a man, Gottfried Kussel,
    25  do you have any evidence at all that I have any kind of
    26  contacts with Mr Kussel?
    .           P-22

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — you were at the same demonstration, for example.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Being in the same room, that kind of thing?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I alluded to that, that that is different and the Halle
      4  demonstration, he was at the top of this demonstration and
      5  that shows something for this kind of demonstration. It
      6  is not like a, you know, anarchist way, they are this and
      7  they are the others, he was at the top of the
      8  demonstration.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: You mean at the front —
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He represented, at the head of it, yes, and he represented
    11  the new leadership of the Kuhnen connection where you
    12  spoke to.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: — yes.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To whom you spoke.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not want to interrupt you, but we certainly do not
    16  want to view that video again unless his Lordship orders,
    17  but you are not suggesting in any of those shots showing
    18  Mr Kussel I was also visible?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The shots we did not see shows the hotel hall in the
    20  longer version and I saw it several times, and there the
    21  people went out and in, and you were asked you if you
    22  would — so far as I recall, but we have to see it then
    23  again, if you will also meet Kussel and you said something
    24  I cannot recall. So it was — you were aware somehow, and
    25  you drove to Halle I think three hours or more from
    26  Hamburg with Uschi or Ursula Worch, one of the leaders of
    .           P-23

      1  this Kuhnen connection at that time, so you may have
      2  known, and if not it seems, for me at least, you are
      3  responsible not to whom you speak to.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: So to boil down what you are saying, what you are saying
      5  is I was in the same large city as Kussel and that he was
      6  at the head of the demonstration on shots of film we have
      7  seen but I am not in those shots and that you say there
      8  are other shots of film — are you saying that I am
      9  together with him in those shots of film?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. But you were together at the meeting,
    11  he — if we go very carefully through the video again
    12  I think you will see him at the spot where you spoke. So
    13  you cannot deny, you cannot deny that this is a
    14  Kussel/Kuhnen connection, demonstration to whom you
    15  spoke. This is a clear cut case. You know it.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now you are bringing in Michael Kuhnen. We have already
    17  established that I have no contact whatsoever with Michael
    18  Kuhnen —
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It does not matter, we refer — we agreed even to call
    20  these groups “the Kuhnen crew” or “the Kuhnen connection”,
    21  we can also say “Sinnungsgemeinschaft”. So I know what
    22  I am speaking about. These groups at that very meeting at
    23  9th November ’91 met. These were clear cut neo-Nazi
    24  groups organized by Christian Worch, by Uschi Worch and
    25  you were invited by Uschi Worch the other day in the
    26  evening, according to a diary, to meet this demonstration
    .           P-24

      1  and to talk to them.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, this is getting a bit repetitive, if
      3  I may say so, I have the evidence about Kussel. I think
      4  he can move on now.
      5  MR IRVING:  Yes. Footnote 117 on that page, 39, we find
      6  Deckert, how many meetings do you think that the
      7  schoolteacher, Dr Deckert, organized for me as chairman?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — I do not know, you know better.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Two meetings; is that right?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: One in Stuttgart and one in Weinhart?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Could be, yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Both reputable bodies?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Both reputable bodies, the one in Stuttgart was to a
    16  veterans association, the one in Weinheim was to some
    17  other little splinter group?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know, you know better. But I know what you spoke
    19  to and who Deckert is, and for the Lordship I just want to
    20  remind you that this is very famous and influential member
    21  of the NPD at that time, and got a bit later the
    22  leadership of this same NPD, and in which in that time the
    23  NPD radicalized with respect to hardcore revisionism, and
    24  with respect, and this is even for my assessment more
    25  important, radicalized in organizing these groupings we
    26  are talking — we talk just a minute — we talked just a
    .           P-25

      1  minute about — no, we talked about just a minute ago, for
      2  example, in Halle.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: These groupings came after they were banned
      5  in ’92, ’93, ’94, ’95, all the more to this NPD organized
      6  and led by this Deckert, so a you have good friend.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are talking ’92, ’93, ’94, it is getting rather vague
      8  now, because from ’93 onwards I was never in Germany?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, no, I can be very precise. I said bans were sent to
    10  these groups from ’92 onwards.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I make it very simple for you —
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You were there, or you could go into the country, and you
    13  did up to the end of ’93.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: — 9th November 1993. Let me make simple for you,
    15  Dr Funke, and ask outright, do you know of any occasion
    16  when I addressed a meeting to an organization which was at
    17  that time illegal or banned in Germany?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I know you do not address a meeting that was
    19  banned — of a group that was banned at that time.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That was not my point at all.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: You say you have seen the correspondence between myself
    23  and Gunther Deckert who is one of names on the list?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Your footnote on page 39.
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, OK.
    .           P-26

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was there anything extremist about that correspondence?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We go into the correspondence.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, if we must, yes, but —
      4  MR IRVING:  Can I ask you if there was any anti-Semitism
      5  expressed in that correspondence?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to go into — you know, piece by piece and then we
      7  can decide.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  RWE 2, tab 8.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 2, tab 8, excuse me, I am not familiar with this (Pause).
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, did I tell you the wrong one, it
    11  is my fault, maybe it is 9, RWE tab 9.
    12  MR IRVING:  I am not sure this is the right way to do this, my
    13  Lord.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, this is not really your fault. I think
    15  this is not going to be a productive exercise. If you do
    16  not object, Mr Irving, do you mind me asking Mr Rampton,
    17  he may not be able to help off the top of his head, but is
    18  there anything you particularly rely on in the Deckert
    19  correspondence as being extremist? I have looked through
    20  the index and there does not appear to be anything.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  Not as being explicitly extremist, no.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Otherwise, we will spend half an hour
    23  trawling through for no purpose.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  I quite agree. If I should find something —
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can re-examine.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  Then I shall include it in some submissions later.
    .           P-27

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Or re-examination.
      2  MR IRVING:  Let me ask, Dr Funke —
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second, can I just go through 30 seconds more?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, if you find some extremist references.
      5  MR IRVING:  That will be very helpful.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  I would not expect to find it in the
      7  correspondence anyway.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Nor would I , which is why I wonder what the
      9  purpose of this is.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — oh, yes.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I would, would I?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, you would, I have one, but I want to use my 20
    13  seconds.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You might extend that briefly.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not — I refer to the following, it is II, it is at
    16  the beginning of No. One, tape 8, and the second page,
    17  12th May ’91, right. Do you have it? II.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes.
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There in the middle it is stated, but I have to check what
    20  are the references, the audio cassette and what have you,
    21  “in three/four years, at the latest, these legends will
    22  no longer hold water the legend will be over and then the
    23  tables will be turned and the whole” and so forth drowned
    24  out in past. This statement, if this is included in what
    25  you referring to here, we have to go to the sentence
    26  before and after, so far I see it can be referring to the
    .           P-28

      1  Holocaust thing. If so, then of course it fits in my
      2  perception of what is extremist.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
      4  MR IRVING:  He organized a meeting for me in Weinheim on
      5  September 3rd 1990, did he not, nearly ten years ago now;
      6  is that right?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is the time that is of interest.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, he has been in prison for seven years for being
      9  chairman of that meeting, has he not?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not think so, seven years, but —
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: He is still in prison now?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — but several times, for a quite lot of time, right.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    14  MR IRVING:  Paragraph — do you approve of the imprisonment of
    15  people for chairing meetings where historians speak?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I do not think that is helpful.
    17  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.2.6 on page 42, you mention —
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK, just a second I have to, it is not so wide this
    19  space. 42, you say?
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: — page 42, paragraph 44.2.6.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: You mention Worch, Christian Worch and his wife Uschi?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: You rightly say that I am close friends or was close
    25  friends with that family. Worch is a trained lawyer, is
    26  he not?
    .           P-29

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know that he is a trained lawyer, but he was a
      2  kind of assistant to a lawyer, and in that function he
      3  acted also in his political.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Had he not studied law?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I know he was in the lawyer — as a lawyer’s firm
      6  as an assistant. He did not study law so far as I know.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: At the time —
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To my best knowledge.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: — at all material times had he a criminal record?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: At all the material times that I was dealing with him had
    12  he a criminal record, to your knowledge?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, there was — he was sentenced, yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: What, under German laws for suppression of free speech or
    15  under regular criminal…
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean under regular German law that includes some limits
    17  to freedom of expression. You know that.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well —
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point was, it was put in a slightly
    20  tendentious way, but were these conviction for speaking
    21  about the Nazi era?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — yes, I have to look up. It was in the —-
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, did he have any convictions which were for petty
    24  theft or burglary?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because of his activities, yes, definitely.
    26  MR IRVING:  He is another politically incorrect friend of mine?
    .           P-30

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You say so.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, that is the question, as viewed from the left, he is
      3  politically incorrect?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I only refer to letters, that includes the German law and
      5  you may call this “political correctness” what the German
      6  laws are doing, fine with you.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not want to have too long answers to this, but under
      8  German —
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Very short —
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: — under the German constitution freedom of speech is
    11  protected, is it not?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I know what the position is.
    13  MR IRVING:  But except for one exception.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think we need any questions and
    15  answers about it.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — no, there are more than one exception.
    17  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.2.14, page 45.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: You mentioned here on line 5 a lunatic, in my view, called
    20  Gary Lauck?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What line?
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Line five, you mention a American gentleman of
    23  questionable mental stability, in my view, called Gary
    24  Lauck?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not on the list.
    .           P-31

      1  MR IRVING:  Is he not on the list? Am I not going to be
      2  questioned about Lauck?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he is not on list and I am therefore
      4  assuming he is not one of those who is relied on by the
      5  Defendants as a right-wing extremist associate.
      6  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.4.1, this is not one of the people that
      7  is a reference to the Leuchter report, Anthony Zundel. It
      8  is accepted, of course, that I know Zundel and I have had
      9  contact with Zundel, right? You state in paragraph 4.4.1
    10  in line 4 that “he was found guilty of peddling
    11  anti-Semitic propaganda”; was that the actual charge?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to look. Can you translate this sentence to be
    13  very precise.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Line 4?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To my best knowledge, but maybe there is more to it.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, he was not actually convicted of peddling
    17  anti-Semitic propaganda, the charge was spreading false
    18  information?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, but this kind of false information, I would call it,
    20  that is in the realm of anti-Semitism, so it is my
    21  judgment, or my assessment to that.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you accept that that is not actually what he was
    23  charged with or convicted —
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No problem with it.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: — you also accept the conviction was subsequently
    26  overturned by Canada’s Supreme Court?
    .           P-32

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I know.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: And that he has no convictions, he is free of any
      3  conviction?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know if he is now free of any conviction.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me put that the other way round, are you aware of any
      6  conviction against him which has been upheld?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know, I have to say I do not know.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: If no conviction against Ernst Zundel has been upheld he
      9  is less of a convict than I am?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think the point is whether these
    11  people have convictions, Mr Irving, it is what they say
    12  and do, not whether they are found to be guilty of some
    13  local law.
    14  MR IRVING:  It is a question of degree, my Lord. People like
    15  Anthony Eden or Lord Halifax, as we know, made
    16  anti-Semitic remakes in private and other people go around
    17  smearing swastikas on synagogue. One end of the scale is a
    18  criminal conviction, other end of the scale is people’s
    19  rather tasteless private rights to freedom of speech.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point I am trying to make is what they do
    21  and say, not whether they are convicted or whether they
    22  are not.
    23  MR IRVING:  The fact they are convicted or not is a useful
    24  indicator for us as to the severity of the anti-Semitism
    25  which has been a component of their actions, in my view.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    .           P-33

      1  MR IRVING:  Or a possible one.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  So then are Mr Irving’s convictions going to stand
      3  here in this court as evidence of his guilt of
      4  anti-Semitism?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand the intervention, but the answer
      6  is “no”.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  Quite.
      8  MR IRVING:  Not a very helpful interruption. 448, I am sorry
      9  still stay on paragraph 4.4.1.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: You refer there to the Leuchter report?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Towards the end of it you say you the report was not
    14  accepted by the court. Are you aware that under Canadian
    15  rules of evidence engineering reports like that are
    16  accepted only if both parties agree in advance, so it had
    17  nothing to do with the quality of the report?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think this witness can possibly
    19  answer that.
    20  MR IRVING:  No, my Lord. He has stated broadly it was not
    21  accepted —
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it was not ever put in evidence in the
    23  Canadian proceedings.
    24  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I will make submissions when the time
    25  comes.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, but not through this witness,
    .           P-34

      1  I think.
      2  MR IRVING:  4.4.8, that was just little bit of advertising that
      3  I will be making submissions when the time comes on that,
      4  my Lord.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
      6  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 4.4.8, you are refer to a body called
      7  GdNF, not for the first time.
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: What is the GdNF? I had lost track of it by this time —
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The Kuhnen connection, we spoke at length yesterday about
    11  it.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: — well, then I can ask this simple question as it has
    13  involved Mr Kuhnen, is there any evidence in any of my
    14  diaries or private correspondence to which you had
    15  complete access of my knowledge of a body called GdNF?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, you have been blank interaction with Christian
    17  Worch. He is one of main activists.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is not my question, my question was is there any
    19  reference whatsoever to GdNF, which frankly I have seen
    20  for first —
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is my shortening, GdNF. It is the shortening of the
    22  OPC. In Germany you may call different.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have not realized it is the
    24  Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
    25  MR IRVING:  The way he put it in his acronym I assumed it was
    26  something like NATO, which is not a figment of
    .           P-35

      1  imagination, this is a figment of the witness’s
      2  imagination and need to be recognised as such, in the
      3  transcript in my view.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — it is the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. We talked about that
      5  and we know what the body of it —
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, we know about that.
      7  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 5.1.4, back to our friend Mr Althans.
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — 5.1.4, yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: You rightly say that in my diary I refer to him as being a
    10  bit of a Nazi, that is at first blush, having just first
    11  met him, right?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. So at least one of the first meetings right, a bit
    13  of Nazi but helpful.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: A bit of Nazi but helpful. I do not want to ride too much
    15  on that paragraph. Would you imply that if you read that
    16  I regard being a bit of a Nazi as being a negative factor
    17  rather than a positive factor?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Here you write as if it is a bit of a negative factor.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: In my private diary?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But on the same token, in the same sentence you say: He is
    21  though helpful.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You are weighing one then against other the other
    23  rather like Schroder, Hitler’s private secretary, she was
    24  probably a bit of a Nazi , but she was very helpful,
    25  too —-
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You say a bit later again something like that, “in
    .           P-36

      1  November ’89 he was still a bit of a Nazi. He is a very
      2  useful young man, 23 but looks older and tougher”.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Or you refer to him in November driving to Strasbourg with
      5  Althans and his skinhead friend to attend Christopher’s
      6  meeting in Hagenau.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: If I say I am driving to Strasbourg with somebody’s
      8  skinhead friend does that imply that I am raising my
      9  eyebrows slightly or that I am jolly happy that this guy
    10  is a skinhead?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You met them. You shared their car. You went to Hagenau,
    12  to very hardcore revisionist, anti-Jewish meeting in
    13  Hagenau with this Zundel Juden pack statements. You were
    14  then — you got a dinner. You were invited by this “bit
    15  of a Nazi but helpful Althans” to a dinner before the
    16  Wahrheit macht frei Congress with Philip Deckert —
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we take this in sequence, please.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — of course, again —
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was the skinhead, so he was there, he is still
    20  around?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you say from your knowledge of my private diaries that
    23  my original impression of Althans, this man who has been
    24  to Israel, my impression was very favourable —
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You did not say that he has connections at that time in
    26  your diary. I read it yesterday night. You said it at the
    .           P-37

      1  end, in ’97 or so, so this is why it came to surprise to
      2  me. I never have known about that, because he was from 14
      3  years old and on with Remer, you know, this very — even
      4  you want — did not want to be aligned with him, person.
      5  So it is a total surprise. I know this organization very
      6  good, and to be very personal I like this organization.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: — the actual zunnerzeit?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, right.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you not seen the correspondence back in early 1990 or
    10  late 1989 where I received a letter from somebody who told
    11  me about Althans’s visit to Israel?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The visit seems to my recollection, but not to
    13  zunnerseiten, because that I would have —
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Registered?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Registered, because I know this organization. It is a
    16  Berlin based organization and that is why I know it.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: — just the general overview of my diaries over the three
    18  years of this unfortunate association with Mr Althans, my
    19  initial impression of him were favourable because he was
    20  young and full of initiative?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: But I rapidly became disillusioned with him; is that
    23  right?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Rapidly — but you know in early 1990s, in 1991 it
    25  starts — and even in ’90 you were a bit disgusted by his
    26  hotheadedness, as you would put it.
    .           P-38

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: There were various reasons, but you agree finally my
      2  impressions of him were highly unfavourable and I warned
      3  everyone against him?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At what time are you suggesting that
      5  happened, Mr Irving?
      6  MR IRVING:  Over a period of three years, two years probably
      7  because by 1993 I was out. I had had no dealings with him
      8  for long time by then.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So your disillusionment started when?
    10  MR IRVING:  I am just about to put to this witness a number of
    11  diary entries on Althans which may help to flesh that out,
    12  very brief entries and I have to put them to you in the
    13  form of putting them to you and I will show them to if you
    14  wish and you may well have them in front of you. On
    15  September 30th 1989, two lines, “Althans phoned the hotel”
    16  that is in Berlin “he said he would phone again” —
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: ’89 you say?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: — yes. I stayed in for this, but he did not call back
    19  poor manners, poor manners?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is not your best point, Mr Irving.
    21  MR IRVING:  November 6th.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Move on to the next one.
    23  MR IRVING:  November 6th 1989, I learn that he spent ten days
    24  in jail for a technical offence involving the president
    25  von Weisecker (?); do you have that entry?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-39

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then on November 18th 1989, I note he makes a very good
      2  impression, be is businesslike and ambitious, keen and
      3  organized —
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: — he has learned a lot already. He appears to be coming
      6  up to speed.
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean he even spoke instead of you, taking your notice in
      8  a given moment. So it was quite close, although his
      9  manner, as you would put it, are lacking some of the
    10  Prussian, you know, style of organizations.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: February 5th 1990, I am sorry, February 3rd 1990, I
    12  express annoyance that Althans has made no attempt to
    13  contact me in two and a half months, and I add that was
    14  very unprofessional?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it went like it. You see it.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, I think this is important, because his Lordship is
    17  interested in the closeness of the contact. If I note on
    18  February 3rd 1990, I expressed annoyance that Althans and
    19  made no attempt to contact me in two and a half months,
    20  that is very unprofessional. He is supposed to be setting
    21  up things in Dresden and so on?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But, again, he made this furious event in Dresden at the
    23  13th February ’90, and.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: — did he —
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You describe it. So I would just, if I may, I would just
    26  say it is a back and forth. It is in waves, right, but
    .           P-40

      1  very intense at that time.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: — why do you say —
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because of the Zundel connections he had and the
      4  Philipp — and all the bunch of people you referred at
      5  that time.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: — why do you describe the event in Dresden as being
      7  curious —
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say “curious”, furious. It was a furious
      9  success for you in your own perception.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Furious?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Great, big, big success.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: — on the diary of January 28th 1990 shows he organized it
    13  with the “cultur director”, the cultur manager of the city
    14  of Dresden, did he not?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which is what I would expect a young man do for me, to act
    17  as my kind of manager and go out and organize these
    18  meetings, and he was organizing meetings with the
    19  municipal authority of Dresden. But he is not dealing
    20  with skinhead organizations, or extreme right-wing groups,
    21  he is dealing with the proper authorities?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He did it both.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: But eventually we fell out, did we not, for a whole number
    24  of reasons?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Reasons for honesty and so on, I do not want to go into
    .           P-41

      1  the details?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but when?
      3  MR IRVING:  I would have to look at the diaries and see. Let
      4  me read on.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  According to the diary entries we have here,
      6  certainly not until towards the end of 1994.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is my impression.
      8  MR IRVING:  1991, in March 23rd 1991, do you have that entry?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: This again shows that Althans lied to us. He dos not care
    11  if we get arrested. This was the famous Leuchter
    12  congress. He had made arrangements. He lied us to us
    13  about what we were permitted to do under the law. What
    14  arrangements he made with the police. He was negotiating
    15  the whole time with the police, was he not, in Germany?
    16  The whole time? He was doing things in a legal way?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But, again, see the context.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: See the context. I mean this was quite an event of
    20  hardcore revisionists, including some of the worst we have
    21  in Europe, Peter Varela.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Mr —-
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Mr Ahmed Remer.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: — Althans had rented the Deutsches Museum. Is that a
    25  very prestigious building in Munich?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, and the problems became not because he has rented as
    .           P-42

      1  a person for scientific Congress, but because of the scope
      2  and of the content of this so-called Leuchter, Fred
      3  Leuchter Congress.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So the authorities said this cannot be, it is not in line
      6  with the law that forbids Holocaust denier to state, to
      7  stage as was done.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: How did the authorities know what was going to be said?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did they decide in advance to ban meetings because they
    11  are frightened that people may come out with politically
    12  incorrect views or what?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think the Munich authorities at that time knew a lot
    14  because of the experience of the year before.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you agree that Althans was trying to do things in a
    16  responsible way? He had rented one of the most
    17  prestigious lecture theatres in Munich. He organised
    18  speakers to come along. The lecture theatre then violated
    19  the contract, is that correct, forcing the meeting to be
    20  held outside in the open air on the steps with the
    21  permission of the police, is that a correct summary?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. I do not see — no, I would disagree with
    23  that.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which part do you disagree with? I cannot allow you to
    25  disagree without asking you why.
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The whole perception of this scenery you described in your
    .           P-43

      1  sentences, I cannot go with it. I know that, according to
      2  your diary, he, Althans, was not careful enough to
      3  circumvent this kind of interaction with the police and
      4  then this ban to speak there and the decision of the
      5  Museum to speak there because they knew what will come.
      6  So, if I may say, if I would have, if I would have done it
      7  I would have been in the same problems, technical
      8  problems, Althans went into because of the content of it.
      9  Believe me, it is not, it is a technical problem that he
    10  cannot do it. It is not, the real problem is that the
    11  whole Leuchter Congress was so disgusting and so against
    12  the law we had and we have that it could not work by any
    13  means.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: These are the laws for suppression of free speech in
    15  Germany, is that correct? It is not against any kind of
    16  regular laws as accepted, for example, in the United
    17  States or in England?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think when you asked almost
    19  exactly the same question about 45 minutes ago, I said
    20  I do not think that helps, so it is not going to help now.
    21  MR IRVING:  Let me try to explain what I am trying to get at.
    22  If Mr Althans tries to do things the proper way, he rents
    23  the most prestigious lecture theatre, he organizes
    24  speakers like myself to come and speak on Churchill and
    25  Pearl Harbour, that was my topic, was it not? Was that my
    26  topic that day?
    .           P-44

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far you said it and according to the video.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: And does the correspondence not also show that that is my
      3  topic that day, my prearranged topic?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The topic of the Congress was the hardcore Holocaust
      5  denials meeting in Munich and to changing, as Althans put
      6  it, very politically in his views, in his views, “We will
      7  stop with kind of defence revisionism. Now it is time to
      8  umdenken, to think anew” —-
      9  THE INTERPRETER:  To rethink?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — “to rethink for the revolution”, so this is something.
    11  MR IRVING:  But now?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again I have just to remind you and with, if I may, your
    13  Lordship, just two sentences about the again and again
    14  posed question. It is not just a freedom of expression,
    15  but you have the constitution.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, I totally understand what
    17  Mr Irving is suggesting and what your response is on that,
    18  so I think we must move on because this is getting —-
    19  MR IRVING:  The position I am trying to get the witness to
    20  understand, and your Lordship has not yet received this
    21  and it will now come. In view of the fact that the
    22  contract was violated, we were, therefore, the organizers
    23  were forced in conformity with the police to move the
    24  meeting to the outside which is a more extreme position,
    25  is it not? They are no longer meeting in the comfort of a
    26  lecture theatre but they are out on the street?
    .           P-45

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Under police protection. So sometimes the extremism is
      3  forced upon them, if I can put it like that?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If you go out, you are extreme?
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, standing on the back of a truck holding a microphone
      6  in your hand looks more extreme than standing in a podium
      7  in a lecture theatre, is that right?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again I would refer to the content. It is not the
      9  appearance as such, the content, the content of the
    10  speeches, the content of the reasons to invite a
    11  demonstration like in Halle. The content matters.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am moving on. March 25th 1991. “Then to a new press
    13  conference by Althans (who was missing)”?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Wait. Where are we at?
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: March 25th 1991, the diary?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Ah, OK.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is substantially before 1994, is it not?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: “New press conference organised by Althans (who was
    20  missing). Further shambles”. Then two days later, no,
    21  yes, one day later, March 26th: “Althans told the press
    22  I was at the April 21st 1990 march (untrue)”. Have you
    23  noticed that and why did you not refer to that?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to go to the letter itself, right?
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, it is the diary. March 26th 1991.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I do not think we need to look at the
    .           P-46

      1  letter.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where do I get…
      3  MR IRVING:  The diary, March 26th 1991. Do you have extracts
      4  from the diary there, my diary?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But maybe you just quote it.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Just the first line, that is March 26th 1991.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “The text from BFP, want me to speak May 10th, DVU,
    10  Althans told press I was at 21st April march (untrue)”.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is this demonstration, the illegal demonstration?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: I put in my diary that Althans is telling the press that
    14  I was on it and this is untrue.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You say? Yes, you say.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Why would I lie to my own diary?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: April 14th 1992, which is two years before 1994, “I am
    18  getting fed up with Althans. It is impossible to make
    19  dates”. April 29th 1992, “Faxes from Althans”.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am getting really puzzled by this,
    21  Mr Irving. You have just referred to an entry —-
    22  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — where you said it was untrue that you had
    24  been at a meeting on 21st April.
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: On the march after.
    26  MR IRVING:  On the march?
    .           P-47

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Afterwards, you know.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On the march, I see.
      3  MR IRVING:  On this march afterwards, yes, the famous march to
      4  the Vertherren Halle?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: One of the things.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I follow. I am sorry. I did not
      7  realise it was the march, not the meeting.
      8  MR IRVING:  Precisely, my Lord. In my private diary I make
      9  quite plain that this is untrue and these diaries, of
    10  course, have been available to the Defence and yet they
    11  are still persisting in their contention that I was on it.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. If I may say so, Mr Irving, I have got
    13  the diary entries. Of course, if there is some missing
    14  diary entry that you want to rely on, put it to Professor
    15  Funke, but I do not really find it very helpful just going
    16  through odd entries. Could you not put your case in
    17  relation to Althans more broadly? I mean, it may be you
    18  have put it effectively already.
    19  MR IRVING:  I did put it broadly, my Lord. Althans is one of
    20  the major figures, in my view.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know.
    22  MR IRVING:  And I have three more one line episodes to put to
    23  this witness which again emphasise the fact that relations
    24  had broken down very early on.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right. Remember it is the wood that I need
    26  to look at rather than the trees. I mean, that is the
    .           P-48

      1  point really. I can see the correspondence goes on
      2  between you until 1993 into 1994. So odd entries are not
      3  necessarily going to help enormously — ’95.
      4  MR IRVING:  If your Lordship has seen the odd entries, my Lord,
      5  and one example of the entries you have noticed is the one
      6  about the demonstration.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  It is right to point out (and everybody should be
      8  aware of it) that these, I do not know quite what, the
      9  abstracts at the front of each section in the RWE files
    10  are not, I think I have said it before, exhaustive. That
    11  can cut both ways.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I appreciate they are a selection, yes.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  They are a selection. There is a huge amount of
    14  material on the cutting room floors, as Miss Rogers puts
    15  it.
    16  MR IRVING:  And they are not agreed bundles either, my Lord, in
    17  this respect.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I agree. I have just said, I take
    19  Mr Rampton’s point, that you are perfectly at liberty to
    20  say that you have left out a particular entry is
    21  significant for one reason or another, but I have the
    22  picture from the selected extracts and all I am asking you
    23  to do is to —-
    24  MR IRVING:  Speed things up.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — help on the overall association rather
    26  than go through individual diary entries.
    .           P-49

      1  MR IRVING:  We have one more specific episode here, April 29th
      2  1992, there is a fax from Althans, and I say —-
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: April 19th?
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: ’92?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, 19th.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: April 29th 1992.
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Fax from Althans with an horrendously tasteless
      9  invitation to my Tuesday press conference”?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then on May 4th, from the diary again, 1992 —-
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: “The Manager of the Bahlscheroff has cancelled the booking
    14  because of Althans’ horrendous invitation leaflet”?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: So to turn to my original question which his Lordship
    17  wishes me to ask you, it is clear that relations with
    18  Althans were brittle?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would say yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But intense.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: So although you quite rightly say there were contacts
    23  between myself and Althans, and his Lordship has seen an
    24  ongoing correspondence —-
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But very intense.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  The witness was cut off he said intense, brittle
    .           P-50

      1  but intense, is that right.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
      3  MR IRVING:  Well, in the sense that our relations with Adolf
      4  Hitler during World War II were brittle but intense, is
      5  that correct?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This comparison does not hold.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, do not dealt with it at length because I
      8  do not think it helps either.
      9  MR IRVING:  Paragraph —-
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because may I add that I not caught into a wrong
    11  perception of my answer, it was intense co-operation based
    12  on the interaction with Zundel and others, and also, as
    13  I said, the Kuhnen connection, with which Althans has also
    14  very intense relationships at that time. So they often
    15  came twice, like both of these groups or persons, to the
    16  same meetings where you attended. So I see this
    17  collection of references that show that you have problems
    18  with him more on a tactical basis, you know. You said he
    19  is unprofessional, he did wrong invitations. So…
    20  MR IRVING:  Horrendous?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Or he messed the things up. So, with respect to your
    22  efficiency to put your things down to the German audience,
    23  yes, he was not efficient, but because of the contents you
    24  shared it was at the beginning and in the coming year, you
    25  know, at the beginning, a very helpful and very intense
    26  relationship and co-operation.
    .           P-51

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Until one learns more about the man and then you tend to
      2  break away from someone, would that be possible?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. In paragraph 5.1.5, you mentioned once again there
      5  incidentally, Professor Funke, the name of “Kuhnen”. You
      6  do accept that I have never met Kuhnen, never had a single
      7  word exchanged with him and never written to him?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He has already accepted that.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to even question this because I do not know, but
    10  there are hints that, for example, but, you know — your
    11  Lordship, am I allowed just to do —-
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We dealt with this yesterday.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have the impression that you accept you
    15  have got no evidence that Mr Irving has met Kuhnen or
    16  corresponded with Kuhnen?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They were at the same march. That is not getting
    18  slippery. He was on the same march, maybe only two or 20
    19  minutes, you know, you do not know —-
    20  MR IRVING:  Which march was this?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — he was in the same meeting of the march to the
    22  Vertherren Halle, the famous, the second famous, as you
    23  say, and he was, so far the records are there, he was —
    24  Kuhnen was at the 3rd March ’90. But as long as we do
    25  not — it is, you know, these groups are conspiracy.
    26  MR IRVING:  Conspiratorial.
    .           P-52

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Conspiratorial. These groups, the Kuhnen connection, one
      2  of their main points is to act conspiratorially. So they
      3  use you as a kind of the most political outsider, as
      4  Christian Worch told it in the letter in June ’90, so
      5  there was a special interaction. So this conspiratorial
      6  things, you even are not in their perception allowed to
      7  talk about this event, what really happened at 3rd
      8  March ’90. So you even from their perspective had to
      9  sanitize your diary. There is nothing about the whole
    10  event at 3rd March of ’90, and the lie. So there is,
    11  I just have to say it, I have just to say that there are
    12  sources that said Kuhnen, Worch and Mr Irving were there,
    13  but, you know, as long as we have not the —-
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are going to look at the sources later.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — definitive proof, I have to be cautious at that.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he is not on the list.
    17  MR IRVING:  Kuhnen?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not know.
    20  MR IRVING:  Is Kuhnen not —-
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was on the list.
    22  MR IRVING:  He was on the list yesterday, I believe.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  That is a mistake. I mean, I will have in the end
    24  to be guided by the evidence of the witness. If the
    25  witness, under pressure from Mr Irving, refuses to concede
    26  that the link between Althans and Kuhnen is illusory,
    .           P-53

      1  well, then he has to go on the list.
      2  MR IRVING:  It is the link between me and Kuhnen that we are
      3  interested in.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  I do not find that very difficult either, I have
      5  to say.
      6  MR IRVING:  My Lord, on a point of law, I would like to be
      7  reminded of here, if a grave allegation is made in libel,
      8  do we have to expect an enhanced degree of proof and it is
      9  not just the balance of probabilities.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not quite sure why you raise that point
    11  now, but the answer is yes.
    12  MR IRVING:  I just wanted to remind myself, in other words,
    13  what I can now be confident your Lordship is paying
    14  attention to.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At the moment it seems to me that the link
    16  with Kuhnen is extremely tenuous and if there are not
    17  better fish to fry, if I can put it that way, then I am
    18  not impressed. I really think we must move on.
    19  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 5.15, we have Remer who is one of the
    20  people on the list. Will you accept just in two lines or
    21  one line that this July 22nd meeting with General Remer on
    22  the evidence which has been before the court, do you have
    23  it, Professor Funke? It is on page 53.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: At this meeting with Remer at Flotto was a conversation
    26  with him for the purpose of interviewing him for my
    .           P-54

      1  Goebbels biography.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it seems so, yes, and you did attend later on as
      3  I see.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and although we have seen evidence that he may have
      5  been in the audience of some meetings I addressed, there
      6  is no other evidence of contact between us?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I see, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 5.1.5, when I in line 2 of that describe
      9  somebody as being a bit of a right-wing friend of someone,
    10  a rather right-wing friend, does that —-
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it?
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Line 2 of paragraph 5.1.5.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: If I described somebody as being a rather right-wing
    15  friend of somebody, does that tell you something about my
    16  attitude to right-wingers?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: It does not? Does it not imply that I hold right-wingers
    19  at arm’s length slightly?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. There are other statements that you describe yourself
    21  as a right-winger, but we come to that later.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: 5.1.6, this demonstration, this little
    23  demonstration, which organize rather wickedly outside the
    24  German Sender Freies Berlin —-
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: — television station, of which we have seen the
    .           P-55

      1  photograph, Pedro Varela was there, was he not?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. This is photograph, yes, then he was
      3  there.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: He was next to me holding a placard calling German
      5  historians liars and cowards?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, right, yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: How do you know that it was because of the repugnance of
      8  my views that the historians refused to debate with me,
      9  Jaeckel and the other historians who have been invited on
    10  to this panel?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I know it is because of your radicalization of your
    12  revisionist viewpoints since you endorse the so-called
    13  Fred Leuchter report.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Like the Second Defendant in this case, all these
    15  historians refuse to debate with people who have different
    16  opinions?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, say it again.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: These historians refuse to debate with people who hold
    19  different opinions to themselves?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not at all, not at all. They are very informed and
    21  debatable, debating scholars, like Jaeckel, for example.
    22  I know him very well.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is a footnote on the previous page 53, 158, you
    24  refer to a letter that I say that I am brushing up my
    25  Holocaust vocabulary?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is on?
    .           P-56

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 53, because I am about to go to Spain, am I not, and
      2  go on a lecture tour organized by Mr Varela? This is
      3  footnote 158.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: In the meantime, I will freshen up my Holocaust
      6  vocabulary?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you were going to make a lecture tour in Spain, in
      9  Spanish, would you also want to know how to translate
    10  words —-
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: — and you would make sure you have the correct words?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is what that refers to, in other words?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: There was nothing sinister about it. Paragraph 5.1.7,
    17  this is still about the Berlin demonstration, and I say
    18  that some of the people who are turning up on our behalf
    19  are some quite rough in my private diary, is it not?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: What was the political situation in Berlin at that time?
    22  Was there a violent left-wing scene? I mean, the
    23  anarchists, were they an extremely violent gang of thugs
    24  who went around brutalising people?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That period of time I was in Berkeley, California.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, Berkeley was much the same, was it not?
    .           P-57

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not, at that point of history.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: It was when I spoke there.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: But in Berlin?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So I do not feel, you know, endangered by this.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am sure you do not, but, well —-
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As a normal person —-
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: What is the word —-
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — and also my friend.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: What does the word “Chaoten” mean to you? It is
    11  C-H-A-O-T-E-N?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Chaoten? You want a good translation?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, I just want to know what image does it conjure up?
    14  It is frequently used by the press, is it not, to describe
    15  people to breaking up demonstrations?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. They bring up demonstrations and doing it too often,
    17  this is a kind of subtext of it.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: So if you were organizing any kind of demonstration, even
    19  on the smallest scale in Berlin, you would want to go
    20  along and make sure that you were not going to be beaten
    21  to a pulp, you would have people there who were able to
    22  protect your suit or whatever?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you have lost me completely.
    24  I just do not know what point you are seeking to make.
    25  MR IRVING:  The witness has referred to the fact that,
    26  obviously, I made a note in my diary that some of the
    .           P-58

      1  people who were coming along to our demonstration that
      2  night were rough necks, some quite rough, I think are the
      3  words, and I am just pointing out there was obviously a
      4  reason why we were glad to have one or two people with
      5  shoulder muscles there.
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Was there a kind of violent interaction?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, Professor Funke —-
      8  MR IRVING:  We have moved on.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — don’t let us spend time.

    Section 59.10 to 68.1

    10  MR IRVING:  Paragraph 5.1.8, please? “Irving told
    11  journalists”, towards the end of that paragraph, “‘The
    12  result of this report is final. There was no mass murder
    13  with poison gas'”?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you accept that this was not a verbatim transcript of
    16  that particular press conference
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was not a what?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Verbatim transcript, it is not a worlaut protokol?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was no mass murder with poison gas. “Es gab keine
    20  Massentotung durch Giftgas”.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but you accept that this is not necessarily a
    22  verbatim protocol of my actual words as spoken at that
    23  press conference
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is a summary, it seems to.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: A summary?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And it shows by the way, if I may say, how link you with
    .           P-59

      1  Karl Philipp and to the radical revisionist cause.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Do you agree that my position at this trial has
      3  always been that at Auschwitz there was no mass murder,
      4  and I emphasise the word “mass” with poison gas?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know that you endorse the Fred Leuchter report and this
      6  is at the basic of the difficulty for the German, for the
      7  German authorities, because it hurts the people who
      8  survived the Holocaust at the very place.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, 5.1.10 — I am sorry.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry. One skips as usual, one has leapt
    11  over the difficult bit without booking beneath one’s feet
    12  as one has gone. At the top of page 55 there is some
    13  dialogue between Mr Irving and a journalist which has been
    14  translated into English, fortunately. I draw attention to
    15  Mr Irving’s last answer and the last sentence of that last
    16  answer and to the plural which he uses.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want to ask a question about that,
    18  Mr Irving?
    19  MR IRVING:  I have already asked the question which is does the
    20  witness accept this was not a verbatim transcript, my
    21  Lord, and that being so —-
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is verbatim now.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please, Professor Funke, that really is not
    24  an answer, is it? Either you are correctly quoted or you
    25  are incorrectly quoted. What you are quoted as having
    26  said is that “It is the defamation of the German people if
    .           P-60

      1  one talks of extermination camps or death camps”. Now,
      2  you either said that or you did not. If your case is that
      3  you did not say it, I think you ought to put it.
      4  MR IRVING:  I will put it another way round. Professor Funke,
      5  was this press conference held in English or in German, in
      6  your opinion?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Normally, these press conferences to get a better audience
      8  are held in German.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: So this is a translation by somebody into English, and we
    10  have no way really of knowing exactly what words I used.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But I can —-
    12  MR RAMPTON:  The German is quoted in footnote 175.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. It is stated there.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  It is in the plural — even I know that — in
    15  German.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just want to quote it now.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is no need because I have read it out
    18  in English and Mr Irving is suggesting it is a
    19  mistranslation, he can say so. Mr Irving, are you
    20  suggesting there is a mistranslation there?
    21  MR IRVING:  There clearly is. “Todesfabriken” is not “death
    22  camps”.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it is “death factories”.
    24  MR IRVING:  “Factories of death” which is precisely the
    25  position I have adopted.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the difference?
    .           P-61

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Plural or singular?
      2  MR IRVING:  My Lord, this is crematorium No. (ii) and we have
      3  gone over that in some detail already.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Now, come on, let us get to grips with this.
      5  Are you saying that you have either been misquoted or that
      6  what you said has been mistranslated in a significant way
      7  beyond what you have just pointed out, Mr Irving? I think
      8  you must come clean and put your case on this.
      9  MR IRVING:  I think it is a misquotation. I am not prepared to
    10  accept this is a genuine quotation of what I said. It
    11  partially represents my position. The “Todesfabriken” is
    12  correct. “Vernichtungslagern” is not correct. If the
    13  Defence wishes to produce a verbatim transcript of that
    14  press conference, then it is up to them to do so.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is an invitation that might be
    16  taken up because it, presumably, does exist, there must be
    17  a transcript.
    18  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you help about that, Professor Funke? Do
    20  you know what you are quoting from derives?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Just a second. The middle of page 52, just a second
    22  it is from Code. This is a right-wing extremist magazine
    23  that quotes this interaction. It is either Franker
    24  Griesch or Karl Philipp, maybe, so one of, just to have a
    25  look at it a minute, if you allow, your Lordship? Yes, it
    26  is a publishing of the press conference content by Code,
    .           P-62

      1  C-O-D-E, and this again is done by Karl Philipp. So he
      2  may be responsible for this kind of translation, what
      3  shows that he goes very — he is a close co-operative
      4  person to Irving, knows or was also there at the press
      5  conference in London and he was there in the press
      6  conference in Berlin. So, the sense, the gist of it,
      7  I think he knows very well and, if I may say again, the
      8  translation of this German sentence is —-
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not worry about the translation. It was
    10  really a simple question by me where it came from.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I have the source here. We will provide, I think
    12  it only right, if your Lordship agrees, the article from
    13  which it is taken.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  By Karl Philipp?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Bundle No.?
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. It is bundle No. 5.1(i), H5.(i)?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And then (i).
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, (i).
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  May I suggest we leave this to re-examination
    20  when copies are available for everybody because they will
    21  not be at the moment, unless you think that is an
    22  undesirable course?
    23  MR RAMPTON:  They are.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, if they are, have you got H5.(i)?
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it is page 324 stamped at the bottom. In my
    26  file it is after a blue tab.
    .           P-63

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, I see.
      2  MR IRVING:  I will ask the witness further questions on this
      3  passage, obviously.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  I can tell your Lordship that the words in
      7  question, well, one of the words in question, one of the
      8  groups, [German – document not provided] is in the second
      9  column at the top, at the end of the first block of
    10  Irving, and the exchange between Irving and the journalist
    11  where Irving says that there were no Vernichtungslagern or
    12  Todesfabriken is in the second column. It is the second
    13  Irving quote, the first half of that second Irving quote,
    14  the question having been, whatever it was [German –
    15  document not provided].
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So it is clearly related to Todesfabriken, and that means
    17  death fabrics or death camps, death factories, and this is
    18  cannot be only the Auschwitz camp or the crematorium (ii)
    19  or whatever you are referring just a minute ago, it is a
    20  very general statement that you deny the essence of
    21  Holocaust.
    22  MR IRVING:  Let me ask you two or three questions about that
    23  passage at the top of page 55. As Mr Rampton is
    24  obviously —-
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: — hanging his coat on it.
    .           P-64

      1  MR RAMPTON:  One of my many coats.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Ask the question, leave aside Mr Rampton.
      3  MR IRVING:  Is the entire exchange, the five-line exchange:
      4  “Journalist Irving, journalist Irving” concerning
      5  Auschwitz, are his two questions about Auschwitz and am I
      6  replying to two questions about Auschwitz?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The sentences before, yes. But the last sentence is a
      8  general observation. The last sentence, I quote it
      9  again: “Es ist eine Verleumdung des deutschen Volkes,
    10  wenn man von Vernichtungslagern und Todesfabriken
    11  spricht”. This is clearly a general statement on the
    12  essence of the Holocaust you are denying towards the
    13  German public.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: “In bezug auf Auschwitz” – with regard to Auschwitz. That
    15  is what was his question was about, is that correct?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The question was, so I quote it again, first in German,
    17  “(Journalist) Warum heisst Auschwitz denn
    18  Vernichtungslager? (Irving) Nicht bei mir. Nur bei Ihnen
    19  und bei den deutschen Historikern. Und dann” —- then
    20  there is the sentence I quoted before, it is — it is
    21  there stated so I want to take this. It is a defamation
    22  of the German people, if one talks of extermination camps
    23  or death camps. So it is clearly a general statement.
    24  You know, you began by answering a question to Auschwitz,
    25  and then you extended it to the whole Holocaust, or
    26  however you say, this bit about the murdering of nearly 6
    .           P-65

      1  million people Jews.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is the sense of my final answer there that it is a
      3  defamation of the German people if one talks of
      4  extermination camps or death camps not, in fact, the
      5  following: “Is it the defamation of German people when you
      6  ask why Auschwitz is called an extermination camp, if you
      7  talk about extermination camps or death camps”? Do you
      8  understand what I am saying?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not want you to, because you have
    11  interpolated some words that are not there.
    12  MR IRVING:  I am interpolating his question to which I am
    13  responding, my Lord, to make it quite plain that this is
    14  —-
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  For my part, I think this debate has gone on
    16  long enough. I have the words that you have recorded as
    17  having said and I hear what you put and I hear what the
    18  witness answers.
    19  MR IRVING:  The words that I am quoted as having said rather
    20  than recorded as having said is the first point I make.
    21  The second point is I would say, what the correction
    22  translation for “Todesfabriken”?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think that “death camps” is the more used translation,
    24  but the sense of it is the general observation that you
    25  denied the Holocaust, that is to say, the killing of 5 to
    26  6 million Jewish people.
    .           P-66

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are aware, of course, that I have always said that
      2  there is no evidence that Auschwitz was purpose designed
      3  as a Vernichtungslager or a factory of death. Are you
      4  aware of that point?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think you waived on that before 1989 and since 1989, you
      6  were very firm on that line.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is since 1989; this is late 1989, is that correct?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: So, if this has always been my position, then this is
    10  clearly all that I am saying in that paragraph. Do not
    11  come to me with talk about extermination camps and death
    12  camps, Auschwitz and so on.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But you have criticise then Karl Philipp.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Then you have to criticise Karl Philipp and you did not do
    16  so.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, I am criticising the person first of all who
    18  translated “Todesfabriken” as death camps.
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And you did not do so.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am just criticising him now. I am also criticising the
    21  person who is not capable of seeing that this a response
    22  directly to the previous question.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So —-
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am not going to take it any further.
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So, again I have to state —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, we were passing on now, Professor Funke.
    .           P-67

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.

    Section 68.2 to 95.7

      2  MR IRVING:  You refer in your footnote 172, to the point that
      3  has already been raised, but here you make it more
      4  clearly, you say here that “Wahrheit macht Frei” is a
      5  tasteless pun, a “Wortspiel”, on the inscription set over
      6  the gates at Auschwitz “Arbeit macht Frei”. Is it not the
      7  other way round?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me, where is it?
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Footnote 172.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, excuse me.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it not the other way round that the quotation from the
    12  scriptures, no doubt, comes 2,000 years before the SS so
    13  that the SS with the inscription over the gates with the
    14  tasteless pun —-?
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, we had this precise point
    16  yesterday, and you say that there is no connection between
    17  “Arbeit macht Frei” and what one sees at this meeting.
    18  MR IRVING:  My Lord, here he is making the point in his
    19  footnote which he did not make yesterday. Your
    20  Lordship made the connection, but he did not.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I did not make the connection; I observed
    22  that you deny that there is one.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If I recall, the last speech of Raymund Bachman, in the
    24  second Leuchter Congress in 30, 23rd March 1991, before
    25  the Museum, he raised his voice and even shouted that we
    26  should not be suppressed by the police agencies and so
    .           P-68

      1  forth, and that freedom of expression should not be
      2  suppressed. What he meant was the ideas of these
      3  Holocaust deniers to be spread out and to say these denial
      4  things. Then he shouted to the public, and I would invite
      5  to see this, the Bachman, the Austrian speaker:
      6  “Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz”, and the whole people
      7  reacted to that. So, the more I realise what these
      8  congresses are about, the more there is an allusion of
      9  “Arbeit macht Frei”, in the sense that this was a cynical
    10  description of destruction by work and this “Wahrheit
    11  macht Frei”, the more I think about it, the more it is
    12  related to each other.
    13  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I have to say that I have no recollection
    14  of having seen that man shout “Auschwitz” three times on
    15  the video and I do not know if your Lordship saw it?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I think the point is whether “Arbeit
    17  macht Frei” is or is not connected with “Wahrheit macht
    18  Frei”. I really do not think we can debate this any
    19  longer.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  No, we cannot, but we may as well if we throw it
    21  away with some ease because, in Mr Irving’s diary for
    22  October 3rd 1989 when he was in West Berlin, he writes
    23  this: “At 11 am, a well attended press conference at the
    24  Kampinski (which I believe is some kind of hotel), around
    25  20 writers, six or seven genuine journalists told them
    26  (I will read it but I do not know what it means): Zeit:
    .           P-69

      1  11 Uhr heute Morgen wird zuruckgeschossen, and closed with
      2  my new slogan Wahrheit macht Frei. The lefty journalists
      3  got the allusions”.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, thank you. Mr Irving, you are in person
      5  and I appreciate the difficulties and you, again, have
      6  been confronted with an extremely long and detailed
      7  report, but, in the end, I think it is important to
      8  remember —-
      9  MR IRVING:  It is the names.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — what it is that this witness is telling
    11  me that really matters. He has identified a number of
    12  individuals who he says are right-wing extremist with whom
    13  he says you have close associations or associations
    14  anyway. That is what I am going to get from this witness,
    15  if I get anything, and—-
    16  MR IRVING:  We will come to them.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — we are darting around looking at the odd
    18  footnote here and there and, as I have said so many times
    19  before, it is really the big picture that you must tackle,
    20  not whether particular footnotes are accurate or not. So
    21  can you please bear that in mind because I just do not
    22  think that we are making progress at all.
    23  MR IRVING:  It is just that I can feel the sharks over there.
    24  They will leap on anything that I have not traversed.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Try to ignore them and concentrate on asking
    26  the questions which I want to hear the answers to.
    .           P-70

      1  MR IRVING:  In late 1989, Dr Funke, I conducted a tour of
      2  Austria, did I not?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did I arrange the tour or was it arranged by somebody
      5  else?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was arranged by Althans and Philipp and maybe some
      7  others, but these both —-
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: These are two of the people on the list, are they not,
      9  Althans and Philipp? Can I ask you to look at document 14
    10  in the little bundle that I gave you this morning?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is too packed here, excuse me.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is no need to read it out, just read it to yourself
    13  quickly.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: And then I will ask you two questions on it. (Pause for
    16  reading.) “I am writing to the head of the security
    17  police in Korinthier which is a province of Austria”, is
    18  that right?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: “In anticipation of the tour and I am asking him to
    21  effectively give me guidelines so that I can stay within
    22  the law”?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this a responsible thing to do?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does it indicate any extremist intentions on my part or on
    .           P-71

      1  the part of the organisers?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The letter alludes to your topics. I quote: [German –
      3  document not provided].
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Do you have any comments on that?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe I should translate it or maybe you can translate it
      6  for me?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would not, Professor Funke, if I were you,
      8  spend very long on it. You have been asked whether you
      9  regard that as a responsible letter?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And it is —-
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I do not.
    13  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: All right, you do not.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not because of that sentence.
    15  MR IRVING:  It is considered an irresponsible letter?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not think it is going to be productive, my Lord, to
    18  ask questions on this, unless your Lordship wishes to?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not really. I did try to give you a
    20  steer a moment ago to what I think is helpful.
    21  MR IRVING:  Yes, exactly. That is precisely how I am moving on
    22  not because I do not want to ask further questions. You
    23  referred in paragraph 5.1.11, and this very briefly, to a
    24  visit which I made to a man called Walter Storff who is an
    25  old Nazi SS friend of someone, right?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-72

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you accept that if you write books about Nazis, you
      2  have to visit them sometimes?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: In 5.1.12, we come to Mr Christopherson who is one of the
      5  people on the list. Is there correspondence between me
      6  and Mr Christopherson that you have read?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To a degree.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did I ever write back to him approving of the book that he
      9  sent me?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall, no.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: No. In 5.1.13, there is reference to a magazine that he
    12  published called Bauenschaft. Have you seen in all the
    13  papers, or my diary, or the files of correspondences which
    14  have been made available to you any indication that
    15  I ordered it, or read it, or acknowledged it or thanked
    16  him for it?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot recall — I have to go through these letters to
    18  be sure that you did not.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, let me phrase it another way. Can you recall having
    20  seen any such letters indicating that I —-
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were, there were a lot of quests of Christopherson
    22  to come to his meetings and you sometimes said no, and
    23  sometimes you attended like the Hagenau meeting, in so far
    24  as it is also prepared by Christopherson. So this is what
    25  I recall.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: To give his Lordship an indication of the intensity, to
    .           P-73

      1  use that word, my relations with Mr Christopherson, how
      2  many meetings, in your opinion, did Christopherson
      3  organise that I spoke at?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Only a few.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: One?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Only a few.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you think of any more apart from Hagenau?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to look at the Christopherson file for a minute.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Tab 15, my Lord.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I am looking at it.
    11  (Pause for reading).
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think there are any other meetings
    13  that are referred to.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  There is possibly one between 12th and 17th
    15  September, actually.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: September of what year?
    17  MR RAMPTON:  1989, sorry. We do not have the recording in the
    18  diary of what took place.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see what you mean.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Die Bauenschaft’s annual meeting.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
    22  MR IRVING:  Moving on from Mr Christopherson, in 5.3.8, is
    23  Dieter Munier one of the names on the list? I am not
    24  sure.
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: A publisher Arndt Verlag. Is he a publisher?
    .           P-74

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Has he published books of mine?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is one of the books a history of the Vorschungsamt, the
      5  German intelligence code-breaking organisation?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That may be, I am not aware, but you published it with the
      7  Arndt publisher.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: With Arndt Verlag, yes. Are you aware that this book was
      9  highly praised by Professor Watt in the witness box where
    10  you are now sitting?
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think he is on the list.
    12  MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not on the list.
    14  MR IRVING:  He is not on the list. Very well, in that case,
    15  let us move on. In paragraph 5.3.9, and to this I do
    16  attach importance, my Lord, the indented passage on page
    17  62, now the question is, if you read the indented passage,
    18  Christian Worch is complaining about what I put into my
    19  speeches.
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is he complaining because I have rubbed the noses of these
    22  right-wing audiences in the atrocities committed by the
    23  SS?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To a degree.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: To a degree. I have read out to you the entire Bruns
    26  Report. Is that evident from that letter?
    .           P-75

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems to.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you think that was only occasion that I did this, or
      3  did I make a habit of doing that to every single
      4  right-wing audience I spoke to?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems that you not only did it in Hagenau, so far as
      6  I recall.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: There were frequent protests from these right-wingers,
      8  these extremists, of the fact I rubbed their noses in the
      9  crimes committed by the Nazis and the SS, and that this is
    10  documented in a way that we do not have to rely on a
    11  consensus of opinion, or the opinion of the social
    12  sciences. We have documents showing that I rubbed their
    13  noses in these crimes.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, especially from Christopherson, I may add.
    15  Christopherson said not to do this, do not refer.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and did I carry on doing it?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is right.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: In paragraph 5.3.13, this is a meeting at which
    19  I addressed in Hamburg and then, I am sorry, paragraph
    20  5.3.12. You are referring to a meeting that I addressed
    21  in Hamburg and then, in 5.3.13, you purport to put in what
    22  I said at that meeting. Is that transcript, in fact, from
    23  Hamburg or is it from another meeting?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Wait a minute. I think I did a mistake but I have to look
    25  at it more precisely.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  I think, in fact, it is the Moers meeting. It has
    .           P-76

      1  somehow been transposed.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I have to admit that —-
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is two months later, is it not?
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it is two months later, in fact.
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By the way, the Moers meeting was not in your diary. It
      6  was stated sometime, it was on the 5th, but so far
      7  I reconstructed it was at the 9th March.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  It was the ninth Moers of —-
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of 9th March.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  — 5.3.19. That is the one meeting of which we
    11  do have a full transcript.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I referred to that, your Lordship, at the beginning of my
    13  three remarks today in the morning.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    15  MR IRVING:  You made references on these pages to the NL. That
    16  is the Nationale Liste, is that right?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was that banned at that time?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: In 5.3.14 – I am going to come back to the Hamburg meeting
    21  in a second – you had me saying there: “We are always
    22  running the danger that we will be arrested…” This is
    23  Moers meeting from the transcript, is it not?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am lost.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: 5.3.14?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 5.3.14?
    .           P-77

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      3  MR IRVING:  It all sounds rather conspiratorial, me telling an
      4  audience there that we are running the danger, that we are
      5  going to be arrested. Was the situation, at that time in
      6  Germany, really dangerous for dissident historians, that
      7  there was danger of being arrested because of what you
      8  said?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is in early 1990, right? Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are people still serving prison sentences in Germany today
    11  for things they said in 1990, to your knowledge, Gunther
    12  Deckert?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not for dissenting historians, but for hardcore denialists
    14  sometimes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, the really wicked ones? Are you aware that the
    16  German government applied for my extradition last year
    17  because of something I said in September 1990?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, Mr Irving, I think we did at an earlier
    19  stage agree that what governments do or do not do is
    20  really not going to be helpful.
    21  MR IRVING:  I am proud to live in England and not in Germany,
    22  my Lord. 5.3.15.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would like to comment on this.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
    25  MR IRVING:  This is an important one. 5.3.15, when you state
    26  that I arrived with Kuhnen, which is obviously an
    .           P-78

      1  important point, the journalist Michael Schmidt, who is
      2  one of your favourite sources, says that Irving arrived
      3  with Michael Kuhnen at this meeting in Hamburg.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: You had before you my diary?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you check with the diary to see if there is any
      8  indication that I arrived with Michael Kuhnen?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. No, of course not. That is why I am raising this
    10  point.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, either it is worth checking if something is likely
    12  or not. Can I take you to pages 13 and 14 of the bundle,
    13  please, I am sorry page 13.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of the bundle?
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is complicated and I am not going to read it all out.
    18  I want you to run your eye down it and I will ask you in
    19  advance the questions I am going to ask. Is it evident
    20  from at that my daughter Paloma was with me on this tour
    21  of Hamburg, tour of Germany, and that she was with me in
    22  the car and that she came with me to the function?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: And that I spoke later that evening at another function to
    25  university students?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was
    .           P-79

      1  going to be present.
      2  MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was
      4  going to be present.
      5  MR IRVING:  Did I say that I would not come if he was going to
      6  be present, that this has caused problems? This evoked
      7  consternation and I said I was not going to come. The
      8  question I am going to ask you is, is there any evidence
      9  from the diary entry that I had Michael Kuhnen in the car
    10  with me and would I not have mentioned it?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the car?
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: In my car, yes.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not know.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: So you will accept, will you, that he was not with me and
    15  I did not arrive with him?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is just the diary.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you accept once more that I have never met Michael
    18  Kuhnen knowingly in my life?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As a responsible scientist I have to at least notify that
    20  there are other hints and eyewitnesses, so to speak, who
    21  say differently.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: You have one, Michael Schmidt, you are familiar source,
    23  Michael Schmidt?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is a very important source, because he is one of
    25  the few who is not in the right-wing camp, and could
    26  manage it for a time of some years to interact with them
    .           P-80

      1  and even film it, and all the video material is from him.
      2  So of course it is an important source. It is a worldwide
      3  important source for this kind of camp.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: But contrasting, shall we say, the postwar memoirs of
      5  Michael Schmidt, this left-wing journalist on the one
      6  hand, and his recollection that he seemed to think that
      7  I arrive with Michael Kuhnen with my diary which shows
      8  clearly that I am with my daughter and there is no
      9  reference to Michael Kuhnen arriving with me at all, or
    10  even being with me, in fact there is no reason why he
    11  would have been because I came from a totally different
    12  part of Germany, you have to admit that, on balance of
    13  probabilities, it is unlikely?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say yes or no to that. I read your diary. I was
    15  very cautious, but I have to mention that there are other,
    16  you know, eyewitnesses of that meeting.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: One?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Can I take you now to 5.3.16? We have moved on from
    20  Michael Kuhnen. One of your other sources, a Miss
    21  Benedict, is it, or Mrs Benedict?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Says that I received applause from the older members of
    24  the audiences, especially SS veterans. How on earth does
    25  she know they were SS veterans?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: She stated so.
    .           P-81

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this not indicative of the kind of things your sources
      2  are writing? Were they in uniform? Did they hold up
      3  party cards?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I quote this person and I do not know more.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you not critical about the sources you use when you
      6  write these reports?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes I am very, and Benedict is one of the sources
      8  I met often, and she is one of those who knew the scene as
      9  intense and differentiated as, for example, Wagner. The
    10  problem is with these sources of course —-
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is she one of your social scientists that you refer to?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is she one of your social scientists you refer to as being
    14  a reliable source?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I thought so.
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is more out of an observational perspective, and she is
    18  one of the persons out of East Germany who knew the scene
    19  from before ’89. So she knew the persons they interacted
    20  in the definitive phase between ’85 and ’90. So she is a
    21  very reasonable source.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 5.2 —-
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought we had got beyond that.
    24  MR IRVING:  We had got beyond that and I was just going to
    25  reassure myself once again, my Lord, this is headed “OPC
    26  Observations”, that paragraph, it is on page 58, your
    .           P-82

      1  Lordship is paying little heed to OPC observations
      2  I trust.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well —-
      4  MR IRVING:  That is the German Office of the Protection of the
      5  Constitution.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I follow that. We went through this
      7  yesterday and it seems to me I make up my mind about these
      8  organizations on the basis of what Professor Funke tells
      9  me.
    10  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And not what the OPC says.
    12  MR IRVING:  We did have a discussion about it yesterday, and
    13  the impression I got was that your Lordship would attach
    14  little weight to what these —-
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I said yesterday was exactly what I said
    16  just now.
    17  MR IRVING:  I will have to read transcript. 5.3.2, Mr Zundel,
    18  footnote 198, there is a reference to Zundel’s Maulkorb
    19  which is a —-
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 598?
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry, footnote 198. There is a reference to a
    22  Maulkorb having been put on Zundel, a dog, what is the
    23  word for it —-
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not see it.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is probably not important then.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a classic example of what I did invite
    .           P-83

      1  you not to do, which is to go to some rather obscure
      2  footnote and completely fail to put your case in relation
      3  to your association or otherwise with Mr Zundel.
      4  I thought you accepted that Zundel was somebody with whom
      5  you had a close association?
      6  MR IRVING:  Yes, indeed, but it is just a trivial point I was
      7  just going to ask him if he knew why this Maulkorb, this
      8  gag, had been applied on Zundel, was it just a legal gag.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is a trivial point let us, please, not
    10  bother with it.
    11  MR IRVING:  Yes. 5.3.26, please, this is Mr Althans who is
    12  organizing my tour for me in Dresden and elsewhere. It
    13  states that the turnover did not apply, the Umsatz
    14  entfallt. Do you know why that was? Are you familiar
    15  from the correspondence that I had agreed to donate the
    16  entire proceedings for the rebuilding of the Church of our
    17  Lady in Dresden?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall, yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. So there is nothing sinister about that particular
    20  arrangement?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it seems not.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 5.3.7, I am sorry my numbering has gone slightly
    23  astray, 5.3.7, you have: “In his report on Irving’s court
    24  appearance”, and you give as a footnote there 218. Is the
    25  source you give for that —-
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is 218?
    .           P-84

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Footnote 218, would I be right in describing that book
      2  that you are using there as being an anti-fascist kind of
      3  source?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again? Where you are, please?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have now gone back to paragraph 5.3.7.
      6  MR IRVING:  Footnote 218 about Karl Philipp?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 5.3.7.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am just commenting on your evidently using what I would
      9  call anti-fascist sources. It is footnote 218. The
    10  question is purely, is that book you quote there what you
    11  would call an anti-fascist source?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Exactly.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You accept such sources quite uncritically, do you?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I stated yesterday that I do it for a special purpose in a
    15  special situation where these sources seem to be very
    16  valid. Of course I have to do it in the case of the
    17  Michael Schmidt video, and this is a kind of rewriting of
    18  the whole video material Michael Schmidt put to these
    19  people. That is why, otherwise I would not, because
    20  I have to check again and again, but I could check,
    21  especially these sources, by seeing the videos and seeing
    22  what it means and what not.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would it not have been preferable to have used the
    24  original sources rather than other people’s —-
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you challenging the
    26  correctness of what Mr Philipp wrote, because if you are
    .           P-85

      1  not, why are we spending a long time discussing whether
      2  the source for it is reliable?
      3  MR IRVING:  We will spend no further time. Paragraph 5.3.19,
      4  Professor Funke. We are now on page 66. We are back at
      5  the Moers meeting?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: At 5.3.17 before that, you describe the speech I made at
      8  Moers as being demagogic or I describe it as being
      9  demagogic?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you object, demagogic, if you remember the little
    12  speech I made at the Leuchter Congress, was that
    13  demagogic, although all I was saying was that I am not
    14  allowed to speak?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It refers to your diary.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but, I mean, there is nothing reprehensible about
    17  making a demagogic speech inherently or is there?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: All right.
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: My perception of demagogic is not so good as yours.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: 5.3.19, we are now actually going on to the content of the
    22  Moers speech?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: The Moers speech was organized by Mr Althans, was it?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: And here I am quoted as saying by the transcript: “Then
    .           P-86

      1  I believed these gentlemen [German historians] who said
      2  that something happened at Auschwitz. Now I no longer
      3  believe this story at all. Today I say the following:
      4  there were no gassings in Auschwitz”. Stop there, do you
      5  know the difference between Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you read either in these court documents or before or
      8  since an article published in L’Expresse, a French news
      9  magazine of repute, in January 1995 which established that
    10  the gas chamber at Auschwitz which is shown to the
    11  tourists is fake and that they admit it?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Give me the evidence, but it was debated very much in this
    13  court.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, we have been through that several
    15  times. It has nothing to do with this witness’s
    16  evidence.
    17  MR IRVING:  It is my way just of reminding the court.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, please accept that I remember what you
    19  say about the dummies at Dachau and Auschwitz.
    20  MR IRVING:  The court did interrupt me when I was trying
    21  to cross-examine van Pelt about this matter.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Only because you had previously
    23  cross-examined him about it. So don’t let us spend time
    24  with Professor Funke on it.
    25  MR IRVING:  The topics mentioned in paragraph 5.3.23?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-87

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is over the page actually, at the top of page 68, there
      2  are several topics mentioned there, are any of those
      3  topics Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism or are they just
      4  plain revisionism?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just have to read the sentence. No, it seems not.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is Mr Althans who was organizing this particular tour
      7  with these topics?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 69, half way down the page, the letter was headed
    10  with a quote from Irving, the question is what evidence do
    11  you have that there was ever such a quote from me?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To what line are you referring to, please?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Effectively, the second half of that page beginning with
    14  “The letter was headed”?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 69? Yes, I have it.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is a letter issued by some organization with an
    17  invitation to a speech by me and then it is headed with
    18  what is said to be a quotation from me?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are saying that is something you never
    20  said?
    21  MR IRVING:  That is what I am putting to this witness, my Lord,
    22  yes. Have you seen any evidence that that quotation
    23  actually comes from anything I wrote or said?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know that to a degree you referred to that kind of
    25  ideas, that is quoted there, that I know by the bundle of
    26  excerpts on anti-Semitism that Mr Rampton brought to the
    .           P-88

      1  court. Yes. But I do not know now, I have to look at the
      2  bundles to see.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I do not want to dwell too long on organizations,
      4  but there are two or three bodies that you mentioned in
      5  that paragraph, 5.3.27, are any of them banned or
      6  right-wing extremists to your knowledge?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 5.3.27?
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. The Arbeitskreis Deutsche Wahrheit or the
      9  Forderverein Junges Deutschland?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to look up, I do not know.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you heard of them before?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not at that point, not at that point, it seems to, not at
    13  that point in time.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But have you ever heard of them?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, but I do not know if they are banned. I have to look
    16  up later on.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But it is not of interest …
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you just say that they are right wing extremists,
    20  although you obviously do not know very much about them?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is the point you want to make?
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Then I have to look up more precise than…
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, unless his Lordship attaches importance here,
    25  I think we will move on.
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK, good.
    .           P-89

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: The impression I had was that you are relatively
      2  unfamiliar with these bodies and that you were willing to
      3  express an opinion on them, nonetheless?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So what did I say? So now come to the point, please.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: When I asked you were you familiar with them you said,
      6  well —-
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: — yes and no.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What did I say on these groups, little groups? What did
    10  I say? What did I say to present them? What did I say?
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Mr Irving said you said was that you had
    12  said that they were right-wing extremist organizations,
    13  but I am not quite sure where you are supposed to have
    14  said that.
    15  MR IRVING:  I asked if they were, my Lord, and he said, yes, he
    16  thought they were, but this was after he had said he did
    17  not know very much about them.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is right. They are listed in this hundreds of
    19  groups of right-wing extremist tiny groups, and it is of
    20  interest that you spoke there and that they are perceived
    21  as right-wing extremists. I can look it up, I mean, of
    22  course if you want, so I looked it up but I have to
    23  refresh my memory. I think this is valid to do.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are going back to the consensus, are you? Are you
    25  going to have another look at the consensus of all the
    26  social sciences?
    .           P-90

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was you who asked the question, Mr Irving?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Whatever you call it, I do not care.
      3  MR IRVING:  I am quite happy to abandon this question
      4  because —-
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, I want to know it.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you not say on 5.3.32 that they were fictitious
      7  organizations, 5.3.32?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They will not be in your book if they were
      9  fictitious, I suspect.
    10  MR IRVING:  I am trying to speed things up.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: I will be quite happy to move on.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, whilst the witness, he is
    14  obviously very keen to look up and I understand why.
    15  I think you have been —-
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is one of this little group without —-
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, can you just pause a moment
    18  because I just want to say something to Mr Irving.
    19  Mr Irving, I think you have been cross-examining for
    20  nearly a day now. I have to tell you that I am not much
    21  the wiser as to what your case is in regard to what this
    22  witness has said, namely that there are these individuals
    23  with whom you have a close association and they are all on
    24  the extreme right-wing fringe. I cannot let the
    25  cross-examination go on. I keep asking you to focus on
    26  what matters.
    .           P-91

      1  MR IRVING:  On individuals.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And you are continuing to go through
      3  footnotes and trivial points. I think the point has come
      4  where, unless Mr Rampton discourages me, I must say to you
      5  you must at 2 o’clock put your case in relation to these
      6  individuals and the organizations so that I understand
      7  what it is, because I do not think it is right for me to
      8  let the court’s time be taken up with cross-examination
      9  which seems to me to achieving virtually nothing.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Can I add to that?
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would like to hear Mr Rampton on this
    12  because I do not want to be over strict.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  No, I embrace that because I have no idea what
    14  Mr Irving says about these people’s political attitudes,
    15  (a) what their political attitudes are, and (b) whether he
    16  knows what they are. That is essential. What is also
    17  essential is that he should say yeah or nay, does he
    18  propose that these meetings which he attended were in
    19  their content entirely innocent?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it has to be done.
    21  MR IRVING:  That is for cross-examination.
    22  MR IRVING:  No, it is not; I do not know what Mr Irving’s case
    23  is.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I want to make every allowance for the fact
    25  that you are in person and you have had an appalling task
    26  cross-examining witness after witness, expert witness
    .           P-92

      1  after expert witness, and there is an enormous volume of
      2  material you are having to deal with. But, in the end
      3  what matters is these individuals and the associations
      4  that they had or did not have with you. You must do it.
      5  MR IRVING:  Well, I believed I was working through this report
      6  name by name and, effectively, devaluing the quality of
      7  the evidence that had been given to suggest, except for a
      8  number of key names which we are all familiar with.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, what you are not doing, it is perfectly
    10  true that you pick up the odd name like Karl Philipp, or
    11  whatever it may be, and you make one or two —–
    12  MR IRVING:  That is the way the report has been written.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You ask one or two questions by reference to
    14  individual diary entries, but you are missing the wood for
    15  the trees again. What I need to have you put to this
    16  witness is, “I did not ever meet with Karl Philipp or
    17  I may have spoken at meetings at which he was present, but
    18  I did not know it” or “Yes, we used to associate quite
    19  regularly together, but there is nothing particularly
    20  right-wing about him”. Put your case.
    21  MR IRVING:  I can do that in 15 minutes, my Lord.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do not want you to telescope it too
    23  much, but what has taken place this morning has really
    24  not, I think, advanced your case on this aspect of this
    25  trial at all.
    26  MR IRVING:  Well, I hoped that I was shaking your Lordship’s
    .           P-93

      1  confidence in page after page after page of this report,
      2  which is initially impressive, but then once we take out
      3  the OPC reports, it becomes very much thinner. Once we
      4  take out the names of people I have never even met or
      5  heard of it becomes frequently sparse and fragmentary.
      6  Now we can deal with the people whose names I have heard
      7  of and deal with them in short order. For that reason I
      8  will go to the appendix and look at the names that we have
      9  highlighted, the people on the list, and put the
    10  propositions directly to the witness —-
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    12  MR IRVING:  — that your Lordship is suggesting.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I think that is the right way to do it,
    14  but do not feel confined — when you are on a relevant
    15  topic, I do not want you to cut your cross-examination
    16  short.
    17  MR IRVING:  There are matters like the Adolf Hitler toast that
    18  was organized by Ewald Althans and things like that, and
    19  I would hate to let that go by the board.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  No, that should not be let go because that is a
    21  point I seek to be of some importance.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I mean, I cannot dictate the way you
    23  cross-examined, but if I had been doing this instead of
    24  you, I would have taken the individuals, I think I would
    25  have taken them one by one, and I would have gone through
    26  the alleged association to see how much of it there really
    .           P-94

      1  was.
      2  MR IRVING:  My Lord, you have considerable more experience than
      3  I do in cross-examination and some of your clients have
      4  ended up in prison and some of them, no doubt, have been
      5  acquitted and have been awarded large sums in damages.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is kind of you to put it like that. Now
      7  let us get on with the cross-examination.

    Section 95.8 to 125.1

      8  MR IRVING:  I am totally ignorant in the manner of how to deal
      9  with these things. I will certainly take the 5.3.35, we
    10  will deal with 5.3.35. My Lord, I do feel we have
    11  achieved things this morning, for example, establishing
    12  agreement that at most of these meetings I have rubbed
    13  their noses in the Bruns Report, things like that, which
    14  I hope your Lordship will not overlook when the time
    15  comes.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have that answer, yes, certainly.
    17  THE WITNESS: Can I just answer the question?
    18  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What about those three organizations?
    20  MR IRVING:  Very briefly.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The [German] quotation in the bundle No. 2, bundle H5.(i),
    22  No. (ii) or 2, I do not know, (ii) I think — no, it is 2,
    23  right. Page on the bottom, 562, this is the leaflet and
    24  this leaflet is very sharp in criticising in the same line
    25  of Holocaust denial calling one of the most hideous
    26  sentences of Mr Irving. So the document itself shows me
    .           P-95

      1  this, that this is a very Holocaust denialist group that
      2  invites Mr Irving to state things. The signatures are of
      3  Steffan Rahber Forderverein Junges Deutschland and of
      4  Manfried Angeford, [German]. They met together to invite
      5  him in early ’90, in March ’90, it is in the Ruhe area in
      6  the munster, in the north rural area, and then there is —
      7  the next does not deal with this group. It is an
      8  invitation by Valendi in 56, on the bottom of the line
      9  564. I can go on and describe the content of the leaflet,
    10  it is very clear, but if you want I can allude to this at
    11  length, your Lordship.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No I think that probably will be sufficient.
    13  MR IRVING:  Will you go to please to paragraph 5.3.35 of your
    14  report at page 72?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 5.3?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: 35.
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now on reading my diary of April 20th — what day is April
    19  20th in the German calendar, political calendar?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was a Friday.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, he is referring to the birthday of Adolf Hitler.
    23  MR IRVING:  It was Friday and Hitler’s birthday in that order.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you would do well to have with you,
    25  Professor Funke, RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
    26  MR IRVING:  My Lord, what page?
    .           P-96

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  RWE 2, tab 9, page 44.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: On the right side, the page number. Yes, OK, I have it.
      3  MR IRVING:  This is a dinner organized, firstly, this is a page
      4  from my private diary dated April 20th 1990?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: And there is a reference in the paragraph beginning with
      7  the word “Dosed” to a dinner organized by Mr Althans in
      8  the hotel?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Drielogen Hotel was a reputable Hotel in Munich, is it
    11  not?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is a very reputable hotel in the city centre of Munich,
    14  is it not?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems to, yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the people who were present, they are listed at the
    17  bottom?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: I found a list from which I have written down the names?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: The list says that those present are Staglich, Althans and
    22  a number of others. Do you recognize any English people
    23  there?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Mr Hancock?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    .           P-97

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: And at this dinner party Althans offered a toast to Adolf
      2  Hitler, is that right?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: “All rose and toasted”, right?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: From the diary entry, is it evident that I joined in or
      7  I did not join in this very tasteless toast?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I quote, “It ended with a drinkspruch spoken by him to a
      9  certain statesman whose 101st birthday” —-
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you answer the question?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — “falls today. All rose, toasted. I had no glass as
    12  I do not drink”.
    13  MR IRVING:  Yes. So is it evident from that that I did not
    14  join in the toast?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but there is nothing in the diary about —-
    16  MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton, will you allow the witness to answer,
    17  please.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  No, no, no. The witness —-
    19  MR IRVING:  I would grateful if you did not interrupt until he
    20  has finished his reply.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it is an objection which is not a valid
    22  one, then I will obviously reject it.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Of course, as has not happened yet in this case,
    24  but has happened to me often enough in the past, Mr Irving
    25  should not lard his questions with interpretations like
    26  “this very tasteless event”. There is nothing in the
    .           P-98

      1  diary about that.
      2  MR IRVING:  Let me start off, before answering this question,
      3  would you consider it to be very tasteless for a German to
      4  offer a toast to Adolf Hitler in the presence of two
      5  English people? Yes or no? Would you offer a toast to
      6  Adolf Hitler in the presence of two English people?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would not do it anyway.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you consider it to be a matter of dubious taste?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know I would say —-
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you answer?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I answer, just now I am answering.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He did answer. He said he would not think it
    13  was very — he thought it would be rather tasteless in any
    14  event, whether there were English people present or not.
    15  MR IRVING:  In other words, the word “tasteless” was
    16  appropriate. Thank you, my Lord.
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And if —-
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, no, let us move on.
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If I regard these two, no, excuse me, my Lord. If
    20  I regard the two persons who were there, and I would have
    21  been Althans if I can, then I would not have the problem
    22  to do this toast.
    23  MR IRVING:  Right, now will you answer?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This tasteless toast.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you now answer my previous question? Is it evident
    26  from the diary that I did not join in the toast?
    .           P-99

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is not evident. “All rose, toasted. I had no glass as
      2  I do not drink”. I do not know.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: If one has no glass and one does not drink, how can one
      4  toast someone? Will you now answer my question? Is it
      5  evident from the diary that I did not join in the toast?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I really cannot say.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: OK. You cannot say or you will not say?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, that is unnecessary.
      9  MR IRVING:  Will you accept that it is likely that by virtue of
    10  the fact that I recorded this incident in my diary I found
    11  it distasteful?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You did not say, you did not write it, and you are an
    13  admirer, to a degree, of Adolf Hitler and Tony Hancock,
    14  the same. We saw the video where he had this accruals(?)
    15  of Adolf Hitler, so why not for you?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: The video of the accruals of Adolf Hitler, what is this?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the video we saw Tony Hancock distributing or showing
    18  accruals of Adolf Hitler, and we know of his record that
    19  he is somehow dealing with National Socialism. He was
    20  there, you both English persons were there, and I can
    21  allude to the others there, Ingrid Weckert, a very
    22  anti-Semitic, you know, person. By the way, Ingrid
    23  Weckert should have been on this list because she was very
    24  active in the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, just to mention
    25  that.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it evident from this list that I have written down that
    .           P-100

      1  most of the name are unknown to me and that I wrote it
      2  down as a curiosity to know who was present at this
      3  dinner?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know Ingrid Weckert, it was shown by the —-
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was that the question that I asked?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — cross-examinations — yes. It is part of the answer
      7  that you know a lot of these people.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do I know all of the people?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That I do not know.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us go through them.
    11  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Through them.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Staglich.
    14  MR IRVING:  Are you suggesting that the fact that I wrote down
    15  this name on the list is evidence that I knew Mr Staglich?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think you may have known Staglich at that period. You
    17  know Althans. You know Philipp. You know Huffgoes very
    18  much. This we viewed of your cassette. You know Ingrid
    19  Weckert. You alluded to this during the cross-examination
    20  of Professor Evans. You know Professor Schracker.
    21  Schracker, I have to say did —-
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: On what basis do you think I know Professor Schracker?
    23  Have you seen any —-
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because he did a brilliant book on him, on David Irving,
    25  the later days, and he was there in the audience where you
    26  were there the next day.
    .           P-101

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: When did Professor Schracker write this book on me?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, you do not know?
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, when was this?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: A praising book to you — in the last years. Oh,
      5  wonderful! I give it to you.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am flattered to know this, but are you suggesting that
      7  at this time or at any time I have had any correspondence
      8  or dealings with Professor Schracker at all?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You met in the same Congress. He did a piece, he did a
    10  statement so far all the sources shows me at this very
    11  meeting the other day and Franco Griesch is the —-
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let us stay with Schracker for a moment. Have you seen
    13  any correspondence between me and Schracker?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, not correspondence.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is he mentioned in my diary apart from this list?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Arnold Freulich, have you seen any correspondence between
    18  me and him?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Daniel Konekt, have you seen any correspondence between me
    21  and him?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, he is the buddy of, if I may say so, of Althans.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but have you seen any correspondence between me and
    24  him?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: The fact —-
    .           P-102

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You mentioned Daniel Konekt a lot of times in your diary.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Leota Fontiss — in what connection have I mentioned
      3  him, having contact with him or —-
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, with Daniel, you did the same tour to Strasbourg.
      5  That was before.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: What is Daniel Konekt? Is he a chauffeur or what? I do
      7  not know.
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Look at your diaries.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are the expert. You are telling us these people
    10  are —-
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I say look at your diaries, you know.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you remember at the beginning of this cross-examination
    13  I showed you a list of 6,500 names?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I figured out three of them as noted in this, with
    15  respect to these whole endeavour. We can go to this list.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Loeta Fontiss, do you —-
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: H Forster?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, most of the people on this list I have no
    21  idea who they are, do you agree?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: You do agree?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot, so how many are on this list, it is 18 and half
    25  of them you know, Staglich, Althans, Philipp,
    26  Huffgoes —-
    .           P-103

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Don’t let us go through them all over again.
      2  MR IRVING:  No, no.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — Weckert, Schracker, Franco Grietsch, Hancock, that is
      4  eight, nine, and Daniel Konekt, so —-
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you turn to page 46 and you see the diary entry for
      6  April 22: “Headache all day, aspirin at breakfast. I
      7  had fixed at his request an interview over breakfast with
      8  Judge Staglich”. Does this imply to you that I do not
      9  know who Judge Staglich is, and this is probably my first
    10  ever meeting with him, my only ever meeting with him? And
    11  I say, “I can fit you in at breakfast”?
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I do not understand that because if they had
    13  dinner on the 20th, it was not the first time they had met
    14  two days later at breakfast. I do not follow it.
    15  MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, do you appreciate (which
    16  Mr Rampton apparently does not) the difference between
    17  meeting somebody at a dinner when somebody is 24 seats
    18  away down the table and shaking hands with them and having
    19  an earnest discussion with them? Is there a difference,
    20  in your opinion?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving —–
    22  MR IRVING:  I am trying to get answers from this witness but
    23  with —-
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — the picture of 24 people at dinner
    25  sitting in a line seems to me to be rather illustrative of
    26  the way in which you are approaching this.
    .           P-104

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Particularly since it is only 19 and not 24.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it says 24 actually.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Does it? Oh.
      4  MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, have you attended large dinner
      5  parties where you have not the faintest notion who the
      6  rest of the guests are, yes or no?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: This breakfast invitation with Staglich, who is one of the
      9  people on the list, on April 22, is that an indication
    10  that I have fitted him in at breakfast and said, “Well,
    11  come and see me at breakfast” and that I never saw him
    12  again?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not get your point.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Judge or not. I mean, we are trying to establish how
    15  intense, to use the word, my connections with this judge
    16  or ex judge were.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, again this is a good example. Put your
    18  case. Are you really saying that you only encountered
    19  Staglich —-
    20  MR IRVING:  On this one occasion.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — once at a dinner party when you did not
    22  know he was there and on a second occasion when you fitted
    23  him in for an interview over breakfast?
    24  MR IRVING:  Let me put it like this to the witness.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that your case? If it is your case, fine.
    26  MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, will you agree that the evidence
    .           P-105

      1  is that I had only one meaningful encounter with
      2  Dr Staglich or Judge Staglich when I fitted him in for a
      3  breakfast appointment on this day, on April 22nd, and that
      4  you have not seen any evidence to the contrary?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. It is not a question of whether he has
      6  seen any evidence; it is a question of what you say the
      7  position is, Mr Irving. There is a difference. Are you
      8  saying that there were just those two occasions when you
      9  even spoke to the man?
    10  MR IRVING:  Yes, of course. That is precisely what I am
    11  putting to the witness. I appreciate the witness is very
    12  tired, but I would like answers.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the answer Professor Funke? Only saw
    14  him twice?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I see what I see, and these are the references.
    16  MR IRVING:  A meaningful encounter?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And I saw the videos and there was Staglich in Hagenau and
    18  this was way before and, of course, there were 80 people
    19  in Hagenau or 100, and the literature shows that all the
    20  late 80s, Staglich was one of the prominent along with Uda
    21  Valendi, so there is a high probability that you know him.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: From this same consensus of opinion of the social
    23  scientists, is that where this probability comes from or
    24  is it from any documents that you have seen?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not answer this question.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry?
    .           P-106

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not answering the question and I am not
      2  going to say he must.
      3  MR IRVING:  In other words, there is no evidence.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving —-
      5  MR RAMPTON:  No, I am sorry.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Rampton?
      7  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, it just will not do. There is a long
      8  entry, for example, for December ’89 — this is not from
      9  the red RWE files but from the diary files — of a letter
    10  from Mr Irving to Staglich dated, the diary entry, I am
    11  sorry, I do not know the date, it must be the last day of
    12  November, in fact, or something like that.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It had better wait re-examination so that we
    14  know what the date is.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  It is villainous, in my submission — I use that
    16  word deliberately — for Mr Irving to propose that he has
    17  had no meaningful contact with Staglich in order to
    18  mislead the witness and, perhaps, indirectly the court
    19  when I see from his diary a long German letter to
    20  Dr Staglich a whole year earlier.
    21  MR IRVING:  Saying precisely what?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It may be, Mr Rampton, if I may suggest it,
    23  that Staglich might be an example of somebody who it would
    24  be, in the light of the way Mr Irving puts his case, who
    25  might be added as another of the sections in one of these
    26  RWE files.
    .           P-107

      1  MR RAMPTON:  He might be, it might be that it is difficult. To
      2  trawl a haystack like that is quite hard.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you must be appreciating that
      4  I must have you put your case in relation to these
      5  witnesses —-
      6  MR IRVING:  I thought I had put it more clearly than I did,
      7  that I had had no meaningful contacts with Mr Staglich.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You did eventually, yes, and I would like you
      9  to do that with the others and not take time, I think, on
    10  individual paragraphs of the report, although there may be
    11  some important ones.
    12  MR IRVING:  I guarantee we will finish within 30 minutes from
    13  2 o’clock, I will have finished with all the other
    14  numbers, all the other names, and this is the way to do
    15  it.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Very well. 2 o’clock.
    17  (Luncheon adjournment)
    18  (2.00 p.m.)
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Irving.
    20  MR IRVING:  Thank you, my Lord. I asked the defence to show me
    21  the Staglich letter on which they are going to rely and
    22  they refused. They said they would have it translated.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  No, I have not had it translated. It is in the
    24  original German in Mr Irving’s diary. We had but the one
    25  copy in court. We have more now if Mr Irving would like
    26  to have one.
    .           P-108

      1  MR IRVING:  I will show it to the witness. (Same handed).
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: It begins three lines on the bottom of the page. Have you
      4  read it?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: So I just ask you two or three questions based on that
      7  letter, is there any indication from this letter that
      8  there had been any meetings between myself and Staglich
      9  prior to that letter?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there any indication that I had written to him? Is he
    12  responding to a letter of mine, or is he in fact just
    13  writing out of the blue to me?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know if he is writing out of the blue, but he did
    15  write to you.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does he reference a letter from me there, does he say in
    17  reply to your letter of?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, from the 28th of supposedly November.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  We do not have the rest of the correspondence
    20  because it has not been disclosed.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just referred to the letter and stated here 28th
    22  November.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I know, we do not have the earlier
    24  correspondence.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, can you translate the first
    26  sentence of the second paragraph of the letter?
    .           P-109

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The second paragraph?
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I was surprised that the facsimile publisher, for you it
      4  is not a concept still. It is a very small, very
      5  aggressive, yes, publication.
      6  THE INTERPRETER:  Publishing house.
      7  THE WITNESS:  [Dr Hajo Funke]: That absolutely is in our sense according to our
      8  lines.
      9  MR IRVING:  Are you familiar with the facsimile, they publish
    10  historical facsimiles?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I do not.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, we are all interested in facsimiles, we
    13  are all interested in accurate representations of
    14  documents?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can you say the name of this facsimile firm?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can you say the name of this facsimile?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is called facsimile for law?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK, good.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you accept that the reference to being “in our sense”
    21  is that they are interested in accurate reproductions of
    22  documents as facsimiles?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think it meant — the “our” means — the our it is an
    24  our sense means more than just being interested in
    25  documentation, then, for example, I would be included in
    26  that, and why.
    .           P-110

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, in other words, from this correspondence or on this
      2  letter from me to Dr Staglich, I am replying to him and he
      3  is asking me for advice on publishing something?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, and you are replying and saying, OK, it is absolutely
      5  in the like minded, you know, direction of publishing
      6  things.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Sinne” means thought or mind, does it?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Sinne” means thought or mind?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    12  THE INTERPRETER:  Is a whole figure of speech?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is in our, you know, joint effort.
    14  THE INTERPRETER:  “Along our lines” is a better translation.
    15  MR IRVING:  I will leave that, the Staglich letter, unless your
    16  Lordship wishes to ask me any further questions.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
    18  MR IRVING:  Go briefly to page 74, which is one more item
    19  referring to Wahrheit macht frei meeting in Munich?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 5.3.40.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: I have a little chicken to break with you, I think we say
    24  in German, do we not (German spoken)?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Go ahead.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: You say some members of the audience wore donkey masks and
    .           P-111

      1  hung notices around their neck? My Lord, you remember
      2  the —
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do.
      4  MR IRVING:  The text which you put here is “I still believe in
      5  Holocaust, the ass that I am”; is that the text that was
      6  actually on the photograph we saw on the video?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it was a reference to it, and I have to admit this, if
      8  there is not no other showing of 21st August ’90, then it
      9  was a mistake. But, you know, the sense of it again was,
    10  as you know, the 78 presentation of this ugly reference to
    11  the Holocaust denying.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: But there is a major difference?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By Boris and Kuhnen.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But there is a major difference between the text that you
    15  have said in your expert report was on that notice and
    16  what we actually saw with our own eyes?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is a mistake.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: The source of your mistake is that book in source 285,
    19  which is one your anti-fascist sources.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you any doubt, Professor Funke, that the
    21  caption which I think was along the lines of, “some people
    22  believe everything they are told”.
    23  MR IRVING:  That is right.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you in any doubt about what that is
    25  really referring to?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am without any doubt that this is referring to this very
    .           P-112

      1  quotation of 1978.
      2  MR IRVING:  Well, I do not think that is the question his
      3  Lordship was actually asking.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me —
      5  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it was.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was.
      7  MR IRVING:  I think what his Lordship really wished to ask you
      8  if I may be so bold and impertinent is.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you ask what you think I wish to ask.
    10  MR IRVING:  This is what David Irving would wish to ask, you
    11  would associate that only with the Holocaust lie, would
    12  you?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: That particular, yes?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And you?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I was going to thank his Lordship for having opened this
    17  avenue of question. Over all the talks that I delivered
    18  in Germany, speaking to these groups that you consider to
    19  be right-wing extremists, was the Holocaust ever or the
    20  only topic that I talked about?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was the topic, it was not the only one.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it fair to say that there was a whole quiverful? A
    23  whole package?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Package, yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Of topics on which I talked, about 20 different topics?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-113

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: There was the Nuremberg trials —
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: — Churchill, there was Pearl Harbour, there was a
      4  whole —
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Dresden.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: — Dresden. The expulsion of the Germans from the Eastern
      7  territories, there was the Eastern frontiers —
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Hungary thing —
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: — the Hungary uprising. Rommel, you remember —
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — Rommel.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: — so, what I am going to put to you is the fact that that
    12  these revisionists lectures, which were held around
    13  Germany, to which, in fact, that placard refers, refers
    14  not just to Holocaust revisionism, but to the whole
    15  revisionism scene, which includes everything about history
    16  that needing revising?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh no, there is a difference between the revisionist — to
    18  revise history and this package of persons, or package of
    19  literature, that is referring to this revisionism we are
    20  talking yesterday and today about, that came to the fore
    21  in the German public, especially since ’89 and with you.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you agree that I spoke to these bands of incorrigible
    23  young Germans, constantly improving their mind on history
    24  from my viewpoint as a revisionist historian giving them
    25  an alternative viewpoint on history, not just about the
    26  Holocaust, but about many other topics?
    .           P-114

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It depends on the subject. You know the debate on
      2  Dresden, for example, has its own tone and has an own
      3  message, we can go into that, compared to that of course
      4  it goes to the peak of this, in this sense, revisionists
      5  who really dispute the amount, and even the content of the
      6  Holocaust. So of course there are different levels, but,
      7  yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: The answer is, yes, I did speak on different topics to
      9  different groups?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No question.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not change the cut of my jib. I did not change —
    12  I am not trying to be deliberately obtuse. I did not
    13  change the content of my talk depending on whom I was
    14  talking to?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, I heard the translation, that you are leaning to the
    16  public, right.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not change the content. It was always the same, the
    18  same record that every audience got, whether it was
    19  generals or right-wing extremists?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, you changed, of course. That is your reversal, your
    21  conversion, if I may say so, you had during the court
    22  procedures in Toronto and since then —
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not think you quite understood the question.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — I did not get —
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not adapt the meeting, I did not adapt the content
    26  of my talk to the audience that was in front of me?
    .           P-115

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — I do not know. You said in — I read a lot of your
      2  letters, you see. In one of your letters you said you
      3  know what a populist is, you have to give to the people
      4  and I am good populist.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is a familiar saying, is it not, the good
      6  politician —
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean you said it.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: — the good politician says what the public want to hear.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, you said you will do it there, you are good.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is not a very extreme viewpoint, it is, it is more
    11  centrist.
    12  I am making much quicker progress forwards now,
    13  if I may, 1979, paragraph 5.3.3, the son of Rudolf Hess,
    14  is what you hold against the son of Rudolf Hess the fact
    15  that he is the son of Rudolf Hess, is there not a German
    16  word for that called “zibenhuft” (?)
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, come on, I do not —
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: You mention —
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — I do not rely on “zibenhuft”. I see the son and the
    20  son of the son each different, of course.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: — you mention the fact that he is in your little list,
    22  you mention the fact he is the son of the famous Rudolf
    23  Hess, the martyr?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think he is in the little list, if
    25  you referring to the list of associates.
    26  MR IRVING:  Page 143, my Lord, he is on the little list.
    .           P-116

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But if you remember we went through that
      2  list, and we have selected, or rather the Defendants have
      3  selected?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, but —-
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Those whom they rely on.
      6  MR IRVING:  They are not going to rely on Rudolf Hess.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not in the list.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  I do not rely on Rudolf Hess. He has been long
      9  dead, I think.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is Rudiger.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I have a theory which I am going to ask about in a
    12  re-examination in the light of recent questions that —
    13  MR IRVING:  Down goes another one then.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  There is a tendency to glorify what might one call
    15  “Nazi war heroes”, but I will come back to that point.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a different point.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  That is a different point.
    18  MR IRVING:  I am quite happy to be accused of glorifying Rudolf
    19  Hess. Very happy and not at all ashamed.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think we need to spend very long on
    21  Rudiger Hess.
    22  MR IRVING:  No. Turn to page 81, you mention on paragraph
    23  5.5.10, I think completely gratuitously, Michael Kuhnen
    24  died of a certain illness?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there any reason why you mention that in this report?
    .           P-117

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was said in the whole publication of these groups that
      2  it was because of AIDS and he was reduced in his
      3  capacities and believe me I do not rely on this specifics.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to ignore that paragraph
      5  completely.
      6  MR IRVING:  Very good. Page 85, the final footnote on the
      7  page, please, there is a letter to Ernst Zundel that you
      8  may find significant about Althans. Always interesting to
      9  read what one —
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What note?
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: — the final footnote on the page. Interesting to read
    12  what one extremist writes to another about a third one, is
    13  it not, here I am saying that Althans is damaging the
    14  “Bewegung”?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you accept that the “Bewegung” I am referring to is
    17  the revisionist movement?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to read it, otherwise — here at the top, at the
    19  bottom, yes, decide what to do with who is damaging the
    20  Bewegung by his antics in his close contacts to the media.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: And my question is, the word “bewegung” is a reference
    22  purely to the revisionist movement?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe this is true, and by this you are saying what you
    24  alluded to a minute ago, that there is a difference
    25  between revised history, and in that sense revisionism,
    26  and the revisionist movement.
    .           P-118

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the reason I am writing a German word is because Mr
      2  Zundel is German, is he not, sometimes you get a better
      3  nuance using a German word?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To be honest, I am not sure what is all is included if you
      5  say “bewegung”.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: If it is the revisionist movement then, of course, it is
      7  not just Holocaustism, it is about Dresden, about
      8  Nuremberg, about Rommel. It is the whole of all the talks
      9  I delivered to any of these organizations with the
    10  revisionist theme?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The revisionist theme, revisionist movement means so far
    12  I got it especially to revise German history.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In a special direction.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Over the page, if you look at the sentence beginning
    16  with the words “needless to say” —
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it, excuse me?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: — on page 86.
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 86?
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: A letter I am writing to Ernst Zundel at the beginning of
    21  the fourth sentence down “is needless to say”; does that
    22  paragraph imply to you that I am determined to keep within
    23  the law of whatever country I am in?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just have read it, excuse me.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Even in private I am warning these people I will not do
    26  anything that infringes the law of my host country.
    .           P-119

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: According to the — where is it stated?
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where is it stated, in the middle?
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: The third paragraph on page 86: “Needless to say I have
      5  the utmost faith in you. You are a professional. You know
      6  the law in both Canada and Germany and keep within it so
      7  far as I can judge”?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: I have respect for the law.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is true. You, in this letter you try to, you
    11  present, observe the law, right, and you did it often in
    12  these kind of letters, yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: And this is not a letter that has been written for window
    14  dressing, is it? It is not a self-serving letter in your
    15  opinion?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What is self-serving?
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Just for the purpose?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is difficult to assess, because it is of course for
    19  the windows, that is to say for the lawyers and that makes
    20  sense.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is your opinion.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And you ask about my opinion, and on the other hand it
    23  make sure of your own purpose.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that I am determined that nobody should even think of
    25  doing something that would infringe the law; is that fair?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The letter shows that.
    .           P-120

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 90, moving on rapidly, there are references there to
      2  a meeting organized for me by a Dr Drayher (?) who was a
      3  very prominent member, as you say, of the Christian
      4  Democratic Party; is that one of the ruling parties in
      5  Germany?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: It was. So he is not an extremist, is he?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, as a member of the party, but with respect to his own
      9  convictions and visions we have to look, we have to have a
    10  closer look on his wording. I did.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, he may have had political incorrect
    12  thoughts in the privacy of his own home in Germany, which
    13  is a problem, is it?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is your language.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Germany, you agree is a much more sensitive area than the
    16  free world like England and the United States?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, by reason, because of we —
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have been into this. I have stopped that
    19  question twice today.
    20  MR IRVING:  Well, very well.
    21  Page 93, please, paragraph 5.72, here you begin
    22  paragraph, quite rightly, by saying: “In an unusual move
    23  Irving took the initiative in his own hands in attempting
    24  to organise the years’ tours”; does that not tell you that
    25  as of 1st January 1992 Althans was finished as far as
    26  I was concerned? I no longer built on him?
    .           P-121

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To put it differently you very angry very often about the
      2  behaviour of Althans, yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, page 98, the first paragraph, you quote a newspaper
      4  there, The Independent, which says that I spoke in Poland?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you are aware, of course, that I have never been to
      7  Poland in my life. So this is the problem we have with
      8  sources that we use, is it not? Sources sometimes can be
      9  very wrong?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, I was very cautious, I just said the journalist
    11  for The Independent suggested that Irving spoke in Poland
    12  instead.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is it. We have to at least put it to the court that
    15  there are other, you know, sayings, and I so far I see
    16  I have to check it again, that I did not take side with,
    17  I did not take side to this.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 01, please, the first paragraph, several names here,
    19  Althans, I am speaking at various meetings; can you see
    20  from that paragraph what the topic is? Is it
    21  anti-Semitism? Is it the Holocaust, or is it a scientific
    22  lecture on the Goebbels diaries which I just retrieved
    23  from Moscow, and is it also a talk on the Nuremberg
    24  trials? Organized by these extremists, according to the
    25  Defence?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is a reference to Nuremberg.
    .           P-122

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is a Goebbels reference here, but if you say
      3  I believe. The other thing is what you are saying when
      4  you were referring to Goebbels, and there we come to
      5  another point.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but that is one of the other experts.
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 127, please.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: The last paragraph beginning “although”.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Would you be so kind just to show it to me, because I put
    12  it out, I do not know why.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: 127.
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I have not it here.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are quoting from the Munich City authorities decision
    16  to ban me from the German Reich.
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: From the what?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: From the German Reich, this is the ban imposed on me by
    19  the Munich City authorities, was it not?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: The last paragraph beginning with the word “although”,
    22  I draw your attention to the second and their lines in
    23  square brackets. I am going to ask you, you are not
    24  implying that I am in any way connected with the
    25  terrorists attacks or attacks on foreigners’ hostels or
    26  anything contained in those square brackets?
    .           P-123

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not see how anyone can possibly think
      2  that he was.
      3  MR IRVING:  If he just says “no” that will resolve the matter.
      4  He puts it in his report that “his extremism in its most
      5  extreme form”?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not by any means, in any sense of this whole report
      7  rely you personally directly to this kind of atrocities.
      8  But what has to be —
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Relate.
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — relate, excuse me. But I just quote the decision of
    11  the authority and the authorities said, OK, this kind of
    12  talking, this kind of — and I can put it wordly (sic),
    13  this kind of rhetoric is in the special moment of our
    14  history, in the early 1990s, very dangerous, because of
    15  the widespread of this violence, of these thugs in Rostock
    16  and where else. They did not use the word “thugs”, but
    17  you know activists of right-wing extremists and skinheads
    18  and others who did this violent attacks against
    19  foreigners.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I put it to you that the fact that a visiting British
    21  lecturer is talking to groups about Goebbels diaries or
    22  Nuremberg or Dresden is not in the least bit connected
    23  with what happened in Rostock and it is very, very
    24  far-fetched for anybody to suggest the opposite?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course, but I want to remind you to the Halle,
    26  speaking in the surrounding things of Halle.
    .           P-124

    Section 125.2 to 151.25

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Can I take you now to page 130, paragraph 7.3, the
      2  second indented paragraph, beginning: “In the coming
      3  weeks”, this is the letter that I have written to
      4  Mr Wiesal?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Film will be supplied from England to avoid problems with
      7  our traditional enemies”, namely in Germany. Right?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now to whom do you take the phrase “our traditional
    10  enemies” to be referring there? The enemies of free
    11  speech? The international Jewish conspiracy or whom, if
    12  I can put it like that? My Lord, this has nothing to do
    13  with the extremist topic, but it is to do with the meaning
    14  of the words “traditional enemies”?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean —
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can it possibly be taken as meaning Jews?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — it can be, yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: In what way?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You did it in the speeches and I —
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: In this letter?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — I do not know. I have to read it carefully. Just a
    22  second.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: The position of the Defence is that I used the phrase “our
    24  traditional enemies” as being coterminous with the Jews.
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again, we should go to this video. This is of special
    26  importance, but of course it is not a direct — what is
    .           P-125

      1  it? Reference.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Quite clearly —
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To a special group, but often it is the case and I cannot
      4  say it is the case here, that you are referring to —
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: — the reference here is —
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — to the international Jewry.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: — international authorities or the German postal
      8  authorities or somebody like that, is it not? Which is
      9  why it has been distributed from England and not from
    10  Germany?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. I cannot say.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: But to repeat my question, in this particular case it
    13  cannot be a reference to the Jews, can it, the answer is
    14  “no”?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I think you are right.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, thank you.
    17  My Lord, we are now coming very briefly to the
    18  list at the end, the appendix —
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving I am sorry.
    20  MR IRVING:  I have done it wrong again, have I?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. You asked several questions about the
    22  way in which this film was going to be supplied to
    23  Germany. I understand why you did, but you have wholly
    24  omitted to ask anything about what Professor Funke says
    25  were the contents of this video, which I notice has you
    26  saying, and I think you ought it challenge this if you
    .           P-126

      1  disagree with it, that the death factories did not exist.
      2  And whoever claims to the contrary puts up a blood lie
      3  against the German people. Surely that is the nub of the
      4  case that is being made against you in relation to the
      5  video; not how you manage it convey it to Germany.
      6  MR IRVING:  Well, it is two part piece of proof here, my Lord.
      7  The reason I asked the questions I just have is to
      8  establish in your Lordship’s mind firmly the fact that the
      9  phrase traditional enemies of the truth, or the
    10  traditional enemies did not refer, as Mr Rampton quite
    11  properly suggests to your Lordship, that it refers only to
    12  the Jewish community.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think he was talking about the use of that
    14  phrase in a different context.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I do not say it is coterminous, all I say is that
    16  it is very often used by Mr Irving to indicate something
    17  that is apparently called the “international Jewish
    18  conspiracy”.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but leave that on one side. If you want
    20  my view you are plainly not referring to the Jews when you
    21  talk of traditional enemies, in that context, but the
    22  reason I have intervened is that I am puzzled by your not
    23  having tackled Professor Funke —
    24  MR IRVING:  The particular sentence —
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — About what you are said to have said in
    26  the video. I do not know whether you did or you did not
    .           P-127

      1  because I have not seen the video but that he is what he
      2  is claiming in paragraph 7.7.
      3  MR IRVING:  The sting of that particular sentence but the death
      4  factories did not exist.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, well, I mean if you not challenging it,
      6  fine.
      7  MR IRVING:  If the reference is to Auschwitz, which it probably
      8  is probably is although we cannot tell from this excerpt,
      9  then that has been my position all long. The second
    10  sentence merely puts icing on the cake, if I can put it
    11  like that, does not add or subtract anything to it, to the
    12  sting. The sting is the death factories did not exist.
    13  This is a reference to Auschwitz. We are talking about
    14  Auschwitz, that is crematorium No. (ii), and I have not
    15  the slightest doubt that in my summing up, my closing
    16  speech, I shall establish that case beyond peradventure.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I do not know whether we have the
    18  transcript of the video?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, we have parts of the video transcribed.
    20  MR IRVING:  Let me put this question to the witness; have you
    21  seen the video, or have you read the transcript?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I saw parts of the video also, but I am not sure if I saw
    23  all, and I do not know if I got the whole text.
    24  MR IRVING:  Am I right in saying that video called “I Shall
    25  Return”, is an overview of the historical revisionist
    26  challenges? For example, we have film footage of Dresden
    .           P-128

      1  in it, do you remember that? And film footage of
      2  Dr Goebbels speaking, so it covers more than just the
      3  Holocaust, does it not?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Also the coverage of Dresden, I do not know if this is in
      5  this case, often as Mr Evans puts it, as references to the
      6  whole procedure of the Second World War and in the top, at
      7  the top of it to the Holocaust.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me move to the question from his Lordship when we are
      9  dealing with Holocaust-related matters, am I only
    10  referring to Auschwitz or am I referring to other camps,
    11  like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course you are referring to others also, of course.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is your opinion or can you remember clearly or is
    14  that just —-
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, you referred to others also, of course.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I think we will have to ask to see the transcript or have
    17  the transcript put to me when the time comes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have got it. It is in the German.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  It is a full transcript.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a free-standing sentence referring to
    21  death camps and death factories generally. I simply do
    22  not at the moment understand why you are suggesting it is
    23  limited to Auschwitz.
    24  MR IRVING:  Because this video is 90 minutes long, my Lord, and
    25  not just five lines long. The part from which this is
    26  taken (and I know it very clearly) is an exposition of all
    .           P-129

      1  the arguments on Auschwitz, the decodes, the crematoria,
      2  coke combustion logistics and all the other matters like
      3  that. We are only dealing with that camp, and that is
      4  quite plain from the context. That is probably why only
      5  this part has been quoted.
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So if I have to answer very seriously, then I have to have
      7  this video or the text.
      8  MR IRVING:  I think it will be properly put to me in
      9  cross-examination by Mr Rampton if he is confident in the
    10  other direction.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I am perfectly confident. It is not the only such
    12  statement either by any manner of means, but may I tell
    13  your Lordship that the whole of that video tape, whose
    14  authorship Mr Irving is in no position to dispute, is
    15  being translated this afternoon, and that will be ready by
    16  tomorrow.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving?
    18  MR IRVING:  So on that video tape, just to ask the question
    19  again, you cannot be certain one way or the other whether
    20  I was talking only about Auschwitz or any other camps, you
    21  cannot remember?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again I have to go at least to some —-
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well…
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It does not work. I mean, I have to see the video in such
    25  or the text and I will not answer that.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, there is no need for this. I am going to
    .           P-130

      1  show some examples in re-examination, so the witness need
      2  not worry about it at the moment.
      3  MR IRVING:  That is far more satisfactory. Page 141, we are
      4  looking now at Thies Christopherson, just drawing a line
      5  under him. You have agreed, have you not, that my
      6  relationship with Thies Christopherson has been tenuous.
      7  There have been, I think you said, one or two meetings
      8  that he organized at which I spoke, Professor Funke?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me, I have to… I reorganized the things, so just
    10  a second. Yes?
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, you agree that Professor Christopherson organized one
    12  or perhaps two meetings at which I spoke, and that there
    13  is no other real meaningful contact between us?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would not say so with respect to these meetings, it is
    15  the case, but, you know, Christopherson was one of this
    16  little group of people who are actively enacting this kind
    17  of, as you call it, revisionist movement. So he was at a
    18  given moment of time very important together with Philipp
    19  and some others.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: But my specific question was his actual meaningful
    21  contacts with me have been limited purely to the two
    22  meetings that he organized at long range, and I turned up
    23  and spoke and left, is that right?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There are a lot of references in your diaries and
    25  interactions that is shown in the bundle.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: The references are him inviting me to address meetings
    .           P-131

      1  which I then did not accept?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, this is included, of course.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there anything else you wish to say about
      4  Mr Christopherson?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to look at the bundle that was given, just a
      6  second. Christopherson, yes, as I said before, more
      7  Christopherson letters to the Plaintiff than the other
      8  way.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Can I without interrupting you now take you to 143,
    10  please, Dietler Felderer? We have not dealt with him. He
    11  was the one who Mr Rampton rightly said you could not tell
    12  whether he was a man or woman. Am I right in saying there
    13  has been no contact between Mr Felderer and myself
    14  whatsoever?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You were both on this Leuchter Congress and, aside of
    16  that, I do not know.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I shall rephrase it. Has there been any meaningful
    18  contact between myself and Mr Felderer whatsoever?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I think not, so far I know, I know the sources.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: When I asked you yesterday about Mr Gottfried Kussel who
    21  is on page 144 and next on our list, I asked if you knew
    22  of any contacts between Mr Gottfried Kussel and your reply
    23  was, “I do not know”?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is no mention in the diaries, right?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Then I have to be more precise.
    .           P-132

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is what you said yesterday.
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again?
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is what you said yesterday. Your answer was, “I do
      4  not know”.
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To what question?
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Had you any information or any evidence that there had
      7  been any contacts between me whatsoever between myself and
      8  Mr Gottfried Kussel?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Then I have to, then I was a bit tired. To be more
    10  precise, the kind of context that you have in meetings,
    11  and I again stated it, I think, today in the morning or
    12  yesterday that it is of importance that you joined the
    13  demonstration in Halle, for example, where he was leading
    14  the demonstration.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: What you are saying is that because he was in Halle on the
    16  same day that I was and that he was within one
    17  geographical mile of where I was, this is a meaningful
    18  contact between me and this rather unpleasant person?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I have to restate it.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: You have no evidence for any other kind of contact?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to restate that this whole organization done and
    22  prepared by Christian Worch was part of the activities of
    23  the so-called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft that includes at the
    24  top of this Gesinnungsgemeinschaft of this organization of
    25  neo-Nazis, Kussel, Worch and one and two or two others.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: So this is rather like saying that because somebody else
    .           P-133

      1  is member of the AA and you are a member of the AA,
      2  therefore, you are connected to that man?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What is AA?
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that what you are saying?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If you describe your revisionist movement as an automobile
      6  club, I would say yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, it is the same kind of argument, is it not?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is not. You are invited —-
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that good as it gets?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, this is not. It is a total distortion of what all the
    11  people in the court, of the court, could have seen
    12  yesterday, and what we described at length.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: But —-
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That you were invited by one of the leading members of the
    15  Kuhnen connection, that is by Uschi Worch, to make a
    16  rabble rousing, as you quote yourself, rabble rousing
    17  speech to them, in a special moment of reshuffling and
    18  widening the influence of this very group.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: That does not answer the question, does it, as to whether
    20  you have any evidence of contact meaningfully between
    21  myself and Mr Kussel himself in person which is what this
    22  is about?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again, I cannot say, I cannot answer this in the way you
    24  question because you cannot separate — maybe others can,
    25  I cannot — you cannot separate a person from a special
    26  movement and you are referring to another movement with
    .           P-134

      1  that is very similar. So a movement is a movement in
      2  which given persons has a special importance and
      3  especially in the parallel organization leading persons
      4  have special importance, and within this parallel
      5  organization it was Worch and Kussel and one or two
      6  others, and Worch, both Worchs, organized the meeting
      7  together with the DNP or NPD leader of this region,
      8  Dienel, and they asked you to talk at the first, as the
      9  first and most important of this whole rally. This is
    10  something different as compared to whatever, AA.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is getting very tedious. You say they asked me.
    12  What evidence do you have for that statement, they asked
    13  me to speak at this meeting in Halle?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again one of the central persons asked you.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: One of the people?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course, yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I now take you to page 146, please? This is
    18  Mr Jurigen Riga — this is going to be very brief, I hope
    19  — you answer in one line, is there any evidence
    20  whatsoever of the slightest contact between myself and
    21  Mr Jurigen Riga, meaningful contact?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not on the list actually, so you need
    24  not really trouble.
    25  MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not on the list, I do not think.
    .           P-135

      1  MR IRVING:  Is he not on our list?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  No. Do ask about him, I do not mind.
      4  MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton did ask about him yesterday.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  No. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. I
      6  think I was told, without having asked a question, that he
      7  was the lawyer, he was the wicked neo-Nazi lawyer or
      8  something, but I am not sure my memory is right.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is one of the right-wing extremist lawyers, yes, you
    10  are right.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway he is not on the list.
    12  MR IRVING:  Not on the list. Very well. Page 147, Wilhelm
    13  Staglich, but the question I am going to ask is going to
    14  be for a totally different reason that his Lordship will
    15  now appreciate. Your first line says: “Previous to 1945,
    16  the end of World War II, Staglich was part of a flak
    17  battery stationed for several months in Auschwitz”. Will
    18  you explain what a flak battery is? Is it an
    19  anti-aircraft gun battery? Is it as part of the air
    20  defence system of a site?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was Auschwitz exposed to air raids?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does this mean to say that at some time previous to 1945
    25  air defence precautions had been taken at Auschwitz?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-136

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are the building of air raid shelters part of air raid
      2  precautions?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know but, yes, yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you very much. Michael Schwierzak, that is the next
      5  name on the list on the same page, how would you describe
      6  my contacts so far as they are known to you apart from
      7  anti-fascist literature with Mr Michael Schwierzak?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He, I think, by the intermediation of Mr Worch invited you
      9  to speak before his little tiny group, National Offensive,
    10  down in the southern Germany. This group is part of the
    11  Kuhnen connection.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, the invitation came from Althans and not
    13  from Schwierzak? Is that what you are saying by this
    14  complicated phrase, by the intervention of Mr Althans?
    15  What did you mean by that?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I thought it was Worch, but correct me.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well —-
    18  MR IRVING:  Well, I do not think it is very important.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — Mr Irving, I think it would be much more
    20  helpful if you put what you say were your contacts, if
    21  any, with Mr Schwierzak.
    22  MR IRVING:  Well, I thought it would just be helpful if I got a
    23  straight no from him that this is no evidence of any
    24  contact between me and Mr Schwierzak.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, there is. There is plenty. That is
    26  why I am suggesting that you put your case as to whether
    .           P-137

      1  you did or did not have an association with him, and if
      2  you did what it consisted of.
      3  MR IRVING:  Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, it is helpful to know
      4  what questions we need answers for, I think, in this
      5  case. Will you, please, therefore, answer the question
      6  suggested by his Lordship, what meaningful contacts did
      7  I have with Mr Schwierzak, to your knowledge? I insert
      8  the word “meaningful” as a means of slimming the answer
      9  down.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I do not think I have got my
    11  message across at all. The burden of Professor Funke’s
    12  evidence — I have said this many times — is that you had
    13  associations with a number of individuals, including
    14  Schwierzak, and that those individuals are —-
    15  MR IRVING:  Extremists.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — in one way or another extremists.
    17  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is his case. Mr Schwierzak is on this
    19  famous list. He is said to be connected with the National
    20  Offensive. I do think that it is for you to put to this
    21  witness what your case is. You know what contacts you had
    22  or whether you had any contacts with Schwierzak and I,
    23  therefore, think it is not exactly candid of you to ask
    24  him what evidence he has got.
    25  MR IRVING:  Well —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The evidence is set out in tab 13. I know
    .           P-138

      1  what the evidence is, you know what the evidence is, but
      2  what is your case? That is what the object of
      3  cross-examination is.
      4  MR IRVING:  My Lord, we are looking at events that happened 11
      5  or 12 years ago. These names mean nothing whatsoever to
      6  me for the most part.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So you are not conscious of having had any
      8  communication with Schwierzak at all?
      9  MR IRVING:  And I am perfectly prepared to be educated to the
    10  contrary if this expert witness knows quite simply off the
    11  top of his head, “Mr Schwierzak organized 20 meetings for
    12  you in Munich, do you not remember?”
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is stated here, I mean.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But he just given an answer which I would have found quite
    15  acceptable that, apparently, Mr Schwierzak was involved in
    16  organizing one meeting for a very tiny group called the NO
    17  which was not an illegal body, had not been banned, am
    18  I right?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But what is your case, Mr Irving?
    20  MR IRVING:  That is the case.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it you cannot remember the man and do not
    22  know him from Adam or not?
    23  MR IRVING:  That is quite clearly the case.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is? Well, I am afraid I am probably the
    25  only one in court who did not realize, but I did not
    26  realise that you were saying that you had no idea who this
    .           P-139

      1  man is.
      2  MR IRVING:  My Lord, at the beginning of yesterday’s evidence,
      3  your Lordship will remember that I showed the witness a
      4  list of 6,500 names of people with whom I have had
      5  meaningful contacts over the last, well, since 1993, if I
      6  can put it like that, and to remember one single name out
      7  of that is a fluke, particularly if I have only had one
      8  meeting organized by him and I was speaking at this time
      9  at 160 meetings per year. I will just ask this question.
    10  You say that the NO was a relatively small organization or
    11  diminutively small organization?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was it illegal at that time?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Had I any way of knowing that it might sometime be banned?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, you could have.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I really do not see the point of wasting time on
    18  Mr Schwierzak.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you corresponded with Mr Schwierzak.
    20  That is what puzzles me.
    21  MR IRVING:  Maybe I should look at bundle E sometime and
    22  refresh my memory.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean we can do it now. It is stated here.
    24  MR IRVING:  But, I mean, when these bundles are dropped on me
    25  from a great height as they were on a weekend —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  With that, of course, I am sympathetic.
    .           P-140

      1  MR IRVING:  I am preparing my cross-examination simultaneously
      2  and running a family and a business.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is stated in the report, it is in your diary, and here
      4  just you can, it is one page, it is a shortening, a letter
      5  to Althans stating something about Schwarzik, so you did
      6  not know the right name at that moment. But then a
      7  circular by Plaintiff addressed, amongst others, to
      8  Michael Schwierzak, again in January ’92. Then the letter
      9  Worch to Plaintiff suggesting to Plaintiff that Schwierzak
    10  might be able to provide two dates in South Germany on
    11  Plaintiff’s tour. Letter, Worch to Plaintiff, assuring
    12  Plaintiff that Schwierzak can provide two dates outside
    13  Frauberg. Letter Schwierzak to Plaintiff. Plaintiff
    14  records speaking at NO meeting outside Stuttgart in
    15  Singlfingen. Then letter, Plaintiff to Ernst Zundel,
    16  complaining about NO with good reasons I have to say.
    17  Then Schwierzak to Plaintiff. That Schwierzak to
    18  Plaintiff.
    19  So it is all out of your disclosure, letters
    20  Schwierzak to Plaintiff enclosing an article that will
    21  surely interest you in ’95. So it is between ’91 and ’95
    22  and it will refresh your memory if you read it.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor Funke, if somebody is receiving sometimes 100
    24  letters a day, right, and if somebody is writing 50
    25  letters a day, is he likely to remember 10 years later the
    26  names if the people with whom he has corresponded?
    .           P-141

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is why we refresh your memory.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: All right. Can I suggest that if I asked that question,
      3  Mr Schwierzak is a man who played no part whatsoever in my
      4  political horizon, is that likely, and then I will ask you
      5  a bit about his alleged extremism which is also going to
      6  be useful. In other words, let me phrase the question
      7  differently. If cannot remember the man’s name 10 years
      8  after the event, is it likely he was very important to me
      9  or to anybody else?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It depends on the structure of your memory, I have to say.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: All right.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. Of course, it can be that you lost the
    13  memory about this person because —-
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you tell us what you know about this man’s
    15  extremism? On what do you base the suggestion that he is
    16  an extremist in the sense as used in this trial?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The National Offensive is quite of the same political
    18  structure and to have the same ideas like the NL, the
    19  Nationalist in Hamburg. It is a southern part of this
    20  neoNational Socialist cadre organizational stuff in the
    21  early ’90ss. You have NO there, you have the NB nearby in
    22  Bavaria, you have the National Bloc, you have the
    23  Nationalist, you have the GA, the German Alternative, the
    24  Deutsche Alternative. These are the various, you know, in
    25  their language gau.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Gau?
    .           P-142

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, gau. Yes, it is really the National Socialist, what
      2  we are talking about.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: What is the evidence that himself had extreme opinions,
      4  apart from the opinion of your consensus and the social
      5  sciences, is there any evidence? Did he engage in any
      6  extremist acts? Did he publish any extreme literature?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes, he did so. Yes, he did so.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did he write any extremist books? Did he throw pigs into
      9  other people’s gardens or do any of those other extreme
    10  things?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He did something together with his whole bunch of people,
    12  and I have to go to the details in looking up what he else
    13  did aside of this group. But then it cost some time.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you not remember what he did? Was he not very
    15  important in your memory either?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is as important as — you know, Schwierzak was —-
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Totally unimportant, in other words?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As important as Worch, aside of the leading position he
    19  got after the death of Kuhnen, as important as Thomas
    20  Dienel. So they were not important for me because before
    21  ’89 whatsoever were not important, but since they got
    22  this influence in East Germany to lead violent skinheads
    23  and took part in the revisionist movement, they got
    24  important and influenced the people to a high degree. So
    25  that in the course of these years the death rate of
    26  foreign peoples rose, the destroying of Jewish cemeteries
    .           P-143

      1  rose, the criminal acts against of right-wing extremists
      2  rose to a height of 88,000.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was he prosecuted for any of these actions?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, they organized that in this cadre, in this way of
      5  right-wing extremist cadres are doing it —-
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you do not mention this in your report?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Propagating ideas of extreme nationalist sort and the
      8  like.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not mention any of these prosecutions of
    10  Mr Schwierzak in your report, do you? You say that he was
    11  given a suspended sentence for trying to revive an
    12  organization he had previously set up and which had been
    13  banned, which appears to be a pretty mild kind of offence
    14  to me.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I referred, I know, I do not know what I am referring,
    16  what is in the report, I referred, I know that the NO
    17  because of this National Socialist ideas was banned in the
    18  same year, in ’92, right, so there is a record on that.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but you tried to give the impression in response to
    20  my question as to what extremist acts he had committed or
    21  thoughts he had expressed, you start talking about violent
    22  acts and murders and so on, and yet when I ask you in
    23  detail was he prosecuted, then the answer is no?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is, no, I did not say this. It is the very
    25  organizational capacity of this NO, tiny as it is, it
    26  instigated hatred against foreigners, it instigated
    .           P-144

      1  anti-Semitism and fuelled these kinds of activities of
      2  skinheads in that area where he was active.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: What evidence do you have for these statements or are you
      4  just saying it for the court at present? Do you have any
      5  evidence to back up these allegations?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is the reasoning of the Minister of Interior to
      7  ban this group, it is the reasoning —-
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that the Federal Ministry for the Interior or the
      9  Bavarian Ministry of the Interior?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is the Federal Minister of Interiors, so far I recall.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that a Socialist Minister?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I think it was at that time Manfred Kanter who was a
    13  more right-winger within the central political scenery.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: So in response to my question as to whether you know
    15  anything in detail that Mr Schwierzak has done, you come
    16  up with just vague stories about what the NO or the
    17  right-wing groups to which the NO was associated has done?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is very decisive.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He founded the NO, so it is not unreasonable
    20  to suppose that there was a link between what the NO did
    21  and Mr Dienel — and Mr —-
    22  MR IRVING:  Was the NO to which I spoke at any time an illegal
    23  or banned organization? We have had that.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The NO, yes, it was, it get banned end of ’92, as I said.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: When did I speak to it, Professor Funke?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Before.
    .           P-145

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: The year before that, right?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know that and I said it. I did not say anything
      3  different.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I right in saying that you find difficulty in
      5  remembering any details at all about Mr Schwierzak, any
      6  concrete, meaningful details apart from vague
      7  associations?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is not a vague association to know that he is the
      9  leading person of this association, NO.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: But never prosecuted for any illegal acts?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not personally so far.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, thank you. My Lord, he is the last person on the
    13  list with whom I have not dealt. We have knocked out all
    14  the names, effectively, except for some of the bigger
    15  names. Karl Philipp who is very little on —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, do not make a speech now. I mean, if
    17  that concludes your cross-examination?
    18  MR IRVING:  I only want to say one more thing in winding up.
    19  Am I right in saying the situation in Germany is far more
    20  sensitive than it is in other countries as a result of the
    21  Second World War and the Holocaust, the political
    22  situation is more sensitive, is it not?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because of several reasons, if I may answer that in that
    24  way? The main reason for the given period that is of
    25  interest with respect to the libel act is that at that
    26  period some groupings converted, and in the same period we
    .           P-146

      1  had converted, came nearer to each other, converged —
      2  excuse me, I got it wrong yesterday, converged — and this
      3  is especially the case for parts of the revisionist
      4  movement and parts of the neoNational Socialist movement
      5  and parts of the old traditional right-wing extremist
      6  movement, and this took place in a sensitive moment of
      7  history of postwar Germany in which the East German part
      8  has to be included, integrated, what-have-you, and in that
      9  period of time there was a lot of rage, a lot of vacuum of
    10  political order, so they could spread their influence, and
    11  because of that it was very sensitive, especially also to
    12  the authorities that were led at that time by the central,
    13  by the CDU FDP led government, and —-
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now let me ask you this question —-
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — this is one dimension of the sensitivity. The other
    16  is, of course, you refer to the renewal, the necessity of
    17  the renewal, of the liberal democracy and the
    18  constitutional law system, after the total distortion of
    19  all the laws we had during the Nazi period.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now, we did not have these problems in the non-Germany
    21  countries, did we?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the?
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Outside Germany, we did not have these sensitive problems,
    24  did we?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In different ways, of course, but not in that way.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me explain what I am getting at.
    .           P-147

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is always a specific to it and this is the
      2  specificity with respect to Germany.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would I be right, therefore, in saying that something
      4  described or defined as right-wing extremism in a
      5  sensitive country like Germany would merely be shrugged
      6  off in England and the United States where we are much
      7  more robust?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not, I would not say this, because if you would have
      9  a situation, let us say, in a given country where within
    10  three years 70 people were murdered by right-wing
    11  extremists at their activities, then there would be a
    12  sensitive situation for any liberal democracy in the
    13  world, I think.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But we do not have that situation outside Germany, do we?
    15  We do not have that situation?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We have that situation, yes, of course, in the course of
    17  this century, of course.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: But not in England? In England we do not have — if
    19  somebody is described as a right-wing extremist in
    20  Germany, it has a definite kind of echo or resonance.
    21  People are more likely to be described as right-wing
    22  extremists in Germany where the situation is so sensitive
    23  than in England or America where we do not have this
    24  sensitivity?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not so, I have not the same expertise on the English
    26  situation, but what I know is that there were not 70
    .           P-148

      1  people in the early ’90s murdered, and the Libel Act is
      2  referring to the dangerousness of Holocaust deniers in a
      3  given moment of time in a given country. So in that sense
      4  it is specific, but it would have been also specific for a
      5  country that had this same amount of violence.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you. No further questions.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I ask you one question before, if I may,
      8  Mr Rampton? It is about Thomas Dienel, because I do not
      9  remember any evidence about why you say there was an
    10  association between him and Mr Irving. Can you remember
    11  off the top of your head?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, just, please, I may remind you to the Halle event,
    13  where Thomas Dienel was one of the main organizer, aside
    14  from Christian Worch, this blond haired —
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Young —
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — middle aged, 40, let us say, young, person, who was on
    17  the podium and shouted after the — so far as I recall,
    18  yes, after the end of the speech of David Irving, against,
    19  you know, criminal foreigners.
    20  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — I know. Yes, thank you, I am afraid I had —
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I think he was there at least once.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Beginning and the end, I think.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was before, also, if you look closely in end.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: He spoke?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He spoke before and after.
    .           P-149

      1  MR IRVING:  Can I just ask two questions?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course, you can.
      3  MR IRVING:  That is your only evidence for Mr Dienel being
      4  involved in organizing the Halle function, is it not, that
      5  he was there and that he spoke; do you have any
      6  documentary evidence? Did he sign any posters or
      7  anything?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: How was it to be signed? It was said in the letters that
      9  went around to prepare this and to organize this meeting
    10  that Dienel was the core organizer, yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which letters are these?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We have to look in my report, it is stated there.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Were any of these letters sent to me before the meeting?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I said it yesterday already that you got the
    15  invitation by Uschi Worch.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: On the evening before?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. This is clear because you had, according to your
    18  diary, the idea to go to a different place.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you accept that none of the video footage we saw, none
    20  of the visual material that we saw shows me at any time
    21  together with Mr Dienel?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean —
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes or no?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — the video did not show you. It did not show that,
    25  because Dienel went downstage just so far as the video is
    26  concerned, when you went up, but you have heard him, I am
    .           P-150

      1  sure, because you could not leave the scene without air
      2  flight as quick as he started his speech.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, so I am clear what your case is,
      4  you are putting to this witness that the only connection
      5  with Dienel is that one meeting at Halle and you have no
      6  idea he was going to be there, and otherwise you have
      7  never had any dealings with him face to face, or in
      8  writing or anything of that kind?
      9  MR IRVING:  Very definitely, my Lord, and in this case your
    10  Lordship will see my reaction yesterday, I was totally
    11  astonished at any suggestion to the opposite.
    12  THE WITNESS:  [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I believe that.
    13  MR IRVING:  I think it is similar to the Thistle case (?)
    14  because I am in the same city, on the same day therefore I
    15  must have known them, shaken hands and given them a bear
    16  hug.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is very clear, thank you.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, in fact the correct running order was, my
    19  Lord, Worch introduces Irving, Irving mounts the podium
    20  and join Dienel and Worch, speaks for a page. Worch then
    21  speaks for quarter a page and introduces Dienel, who then
    22  does his bit.
    23  MR IRVING:  We might have to see that video again.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  I am sure we shall have to see to again, no
    25  question. I shall show it again in closing this case.

    Part III: Rampton Re-Examines Dr. Funke 151.26 to 195.25

    26  < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON Q.C.
    .           P-151

      1  Can I ask you to expand on some of the last
      2  evidence you gave, Professor Funke, can I put my question
      3  in this way. You have spoken of the danger of right-wing,
      4  extreme, or neo-fascist, neo-Nazi rabble rousers going and
      5  speaking in some areas of Germany, particularly those that
      6  have a sensitive economic and social context, like former
      7  East Germany. If I am a rabble rouser, and I go to a poor
      8  district of a place like Halle, and I address an audience
      9  of skinheads, let us say, or partly of skinheads, on, for
    10  example, I am not saying this happened on this occasion,
    11  Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism; does that have any
    12  impact, in your judgment, from your knowledge of this area
    13  of life in Germany? Does that have any forward impact on
    14  attitudes generally towards, for example, auslander?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There are insider reports from people who were in this
    16  scene and then left the scene that showed very decisively
    17  exactly that, that they need a kind of encouragement, if
    18  I may say so, to this direction, and that they have
    19  to encourage each other, to do the deeds they are doing
    20  there.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We can be fairly banal, trite about this, can we not,
    22  would you describe Hitler or Goebbels as rabble rousers
    23  when they spoke?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So far as you know, did they ever wield a club or a gun
    26  themselves?
    .           P-152

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, they wore nice clothes, for example. Sometimes they
      2  also appeared in various kinds of Nazi, like Nazis
      3  uniforms, so it depends on the occasion.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But they did not stand on the edge of pits in the East and
      5  machine gun Jews, did they, Hitler and Goebbels
      6  themselves?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can you translate that.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think there was a misunderstanding. You
      9  asked about clubs or guns and you got an answer about
    10  clothing.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I think it was an answer, yes, they had nice
    12  uniforms, but, no, they did not shoot people.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It could have been an answer.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Is that right?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, they had nice uniforms, but, no, they did not
    17  shoot people?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not in this period, in this stagings, of course, not.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I mean themselves personally? They shot themselves at the
    20  end, I know that?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far we know not.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So far as we know.
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we go back a bit, please, and do you have your report
    25  there? I want to deal, if I may, with Mr Irving’s
    26  repeated suggestion that he has never spoken of the
    .           P-153

      1  non-existence of gas chambers except in terms of
      2  Auschwitz, and Auschwitz alone. So I would like you to
      3  look at some material. At the top of page 55 you quote in
      4  English from an interview with Mr Irving reported in a
      5  magazine called Code for December 1989, yes?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think we find that article in H5.1(i) if you like at
      8  page 324?
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is the one we looked at before.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but I want to ask about a different part.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: H5 and then?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: H5(i).
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I would like you to look at the bottom of the first
    15  column, page 324, sorry, you are quite right.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 54 of the actual magazine.
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have got it. Under the heading (German spoken) yes?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Excuse my German. Now, could you just read to yourself,
    22  not out loud, from “journalist” down to the end of first
    23  quote for Mr Irving?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Again, with the word (German spoken) and tell us what it
    26  means.
    .           P-154

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The journalist refers to eyewitnesses, that especially in
      2  the last days of war there should have been the gassing
      3  very intense before the liberation of the camp. Irving
      4  answers according to the official version of history, in
      5  October 1944, the gassing ended and then he adds: But why
      6  scientific researches are not taken into account of
      7  “laborisgeschaft” (?).
      8  MR IRVING:  Forensic?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Forensic, right, and then the next sentence is: The result
    10  of this forensic research is clear. There were no mass —
    11  MR RAMPTON:  Killings?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — killings by poison gas.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. You take that to be a general statement or
    14  specific to Auschwitz?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is related, so far I gather it, to the forensic
    16  researches, but the sentence itself says as (German
    17  spoken), there were no mass killings by poison gas.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it might be related to the forensic, so-called forensic
    19  examinations, done by Professor Leuchter at Auschwitz
    20  might it, do you think?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, thank you. Now I want you to look at another one.
    23  Pages 63 to 64.
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of my report?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, please. This recites as we realized as we were going
    26  through it, paragraph 5.3.13.
    .           P-155

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Recites something that Mr Irving said at a place called
      3  Moers; where is Moers?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is in the western part of Germany.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: On 9th March 1990, could the witness see, well, let me
      6  please just first read how you translate it at the bottom
      7  of page 63 and the top of page 64. There is a reference
      8  to Auschwitz, Mr Irving says: But the dummies are still
      9  standing in Auschwitz because the German government has no
    10  sway there and understandably that is a problem for you,
    11  that you have a government in Bonn that allows its own
    12  people to be defamed by all countries of the world,
    13  although in the meantime it has cried out that these
    14  things in Auschwitz and probably in Mydanik, Treblinka and
    15  in other so-called extermination camps in the East are all
    16  dummies”; who made that translation? Who made that
    17  translation? The German is at the bottom of the page,
    18  footnote 229, do you know who made that translation?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, can you look at the German at the bottom of the page
    21  in footnote 229. It is a video cassette.
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, video cassette, 187, David Irving in Moers.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There cannot be any dispute about the German unless it has
    24  been mistranscribed. The sentence begins (German spoken)
    25  have you got that in a footnote?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    .           P-156

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you read the German, please, to yourself?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: To the end of sentence.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And tell me whether you think, or perhaps with the help of
      6  the interpreter, tell me whether you think that that is a
      7  fair — what the English says is a fair version of what
      8  the German says.
      9  THE INTERPRETER:  We are just comparing the two.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, please.
    11  THE INTERPRETER:  I would say it should be added “they are all
    12  nothing but dummies”.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Nothing but?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is not translated literally.
    15  MR IRVING:  All just dummies.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Just dummies?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And the things —
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: All just dummies?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — yes, the things in Auschwitz and probably you also in
    20  Mydanik Treblinka and in the other death camps.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, extermination camps?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So-called.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So-called?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the East, all just dummies.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mock ups, fakes, dummies. Thank you very much.
    26  Then we go back to page 61, if we may, paragraph
    .           P-157

      1  5.3.7, in his report on Irving’s court appearance Philip
      2  wrote: In his statement the researcher of contemporary
      3  history, Irving, when into the Leuchter report and
      4  reaffirmed his view according to which it was not
      5  possible to there to have been gas chambers for killing
      6  people in Auschwitz, Birkenhau or Mydarnik”.
      7  Mr Irving was invited by the judge to challenge
      8  that statement, the question he did not. The question I
      9  have of you, have you any reason to doubt that that is an
    10  accurate report of what Mr Irving said?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have no question about that.
    12  MR IRVING:  My Lord, your Lordship’s invitation did not refer
    13  to that statement, it was to another one.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Could the witness please be given file K3.
    15  MR IRVING:  My Lord, is it accepted that was not a statement
    16  that was challenged?
    17  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, we certainly looked at that, and to be
    19  honest I actually cannot remember.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  No, I cannot either, but that was my note.
    21  MR IRVING:  I do not want it to go in the transcript that I
    22  allowed that — specifically allowed —
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Well, we can see from the transcript whether it
    24  was or it was not.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The transcript will tell us what has happened
    26  anyway.
    .           P-158

      1  MR IRVING:  There is a difference between my, for various
      2  reasons not having wanted to slow up the
      3  cross-examination, picking on paragraph after paragraph,
      4  and specifically to declining an invitation to comment on
      5  a paragraph.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Does your Lordship have K3 in court?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  Tab 12, please.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you. Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you look at the beginning of tab 12, this is an
    11  interview in English between somebody called Roley Levin.
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And Mr Irving, unedited this interview, so we need not
    14  worry about that, dated 28th November ’91, and Mr Levin
    15  starts off by saying: You made a very powerful speech
    16  tonight, what is the message you are trying to get
    17  across? I am sorry, what is the message you are trying to
    18  get across to an audience of Germans like this”. So it
    19  looks as though, does it not, it is a reference to some
    20  speech that has been made in Germany. Do you happen to
    21  know which speech it was that it is referring to at this
    22  date? I could not trace it in the —
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — in the material I have got.
    25  MR IRVING:  Could I have a copy of this while we are doing
    26  this?
    .           P-159

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you not got K3? You have not brought it
      2  with you.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Certainly, you should have that.
      4  MR IRVING:  What is the reference again?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  K3, tab 12. It is a television programme, is
      6  it, that is the date of the television programme?
      7  MR RAMPTON:  That is the date of the interview perhaps or
      8  television programme, but what Miss Rogers is suggesting,
      9  I bet she is right, the film crew apparently followed
    10  Mr Irving round during the Halle period, which was on the
    11  9th, and probably did an interview with him that same day.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The problem with that is the speech was
    13  not —
    14  MR RAMPTON:  (Pause while counsel confer) She knows far more
    15  than I do.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Halle was in the middle of the day, was it
    17  not.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, that is right, and apparently his speech was
    19  on 6th and 7th November as well.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right, well, it may not matter anyway.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  It may not matter very much, but what I am anxious
    22  to —-
    23  THE WITNESS:  [Dr Hajo Funke]: The NPD meeting in Hamburg of the 7th November?
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, that is right, that is it?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe that is it.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: All I am anxious to establish is that this is a reference
    .           P-160

      1  to what Mr Irving said in Germany, which apparently it is,
      2  now can you turn to page 5, you will find that in small
      3  print at the top right hand corner of the page.
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will start, if I may, with the second quote from
      6  Mr Levin it is: One of your themes when you talk to an
      7  audience like this is that the Holocaust never happened,
      8  that the gas chambers were a fiction. Can we pause
      9  there. Assuming that records the theme, or one of the
    10  themes that Mr Irving dealt with on this occasion in
    11  Hamburg, do you have any knowledge of the content of that
    12  speech beyond what we find in this interview?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. Irving: Well, those are two separate things.
    15  I mean by the Holocaust, do you mean the gas chambers? If
    16  by the Holocaust, which is this rather unpleasant kind of
    17  Madison Avenue image that the Jewish community have
    18  developed, the Holocaust with a capital H, you imagine
    19  that you are going to see the letter R after it as kind
    20  registered trademark. I am not allowed to use the word
    21  Holocaust in my books to describe any other tragedy. Now
    22  my editors say, no, that is reserved for what happened to
    23  the Jews.
    24  Levin: But you told your audience tonight that
    25  the gas chambers [plural], were a fiction:
    26  Irving: Oh, yes, the gas chambers are a very
    .           P-161

      1  clear piece of propaganda, that we British very cunningly,
      2  cunningly cannived at and contrived during World War II
      3  and that is my considered opinion as a British historian
      4  and I think in two, two or three years people will accept
      5  you I am right again.
      6  Levin: The idea of the gas chambers was invented
      7  by the British during the war, and then the so-called gas
      8  chambers at — again he uses the plural that perhaps not
      9  his fault at Auschwitz were built by the Poles after the
    10  war in order to deceive people.
    11  MR IRVING:  Can you read the next paragraph, please.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I am going to read the next three paragraphs,
    13  actually: “Certainly the gas chamber [single] that is
    14  shown to tourists in Poland now in Auschwitz is built by
    15  the Polish government after the war and the director of
    16  the Auschwitz museum and director of Auschwitz museum
    17  archives, Dr Piegel (?), has admitted this in private
    18  talks with other historians that it is in fact a fake.”
    19  I am not sure that quite fair on Dr Piegel.
    20  MR IRVING:  Just leave it as it is without any interspersed
    21  remarks.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Quite right.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  “Levin: It is important to you to get across to a
    24  German audience like this that people are told lies about
    25  the gas chambers [plural] or they never really happened.
    26  I prefer, says David Irving, I prefer the word legends.
    .           P-162

      1  In fact, it is in fact a lie. Propaganda is basically
      2  lying. What is is now going around is not a lie, it is a
      3  legend. There is a difference. A legend is something
      4  that people, innocent and ordinary people believe and in
      5  turn retell to other innocent and ordinary people.”
      6  Professor Funke, are you aware of any evidence
      7  that the whole gas chamber story, the gas chambers,
      8  plural, were nothing more then a clever piece of
      9  propaganda that the British invented?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is no evidence for that.
    11  MR IRVING:  Can he be asked if he is aware of any evidence that
    12  what is shown to the tourists is a fake or
    13  reconstruction?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  That is common ground, Mr Irving, we all know that
    15  it is a reconstruction, the Stammlager gas chamber at
    16  Auschwitz, that never been in contention.
    17  MR IRVING:  Never been in contention?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Never been in contention, the only only
    19  question is whether —
    20  MR RAMPTON:  If Mr Irving had read Professor van Pelt’s report
    21  properly he would have understood that it was never in
    22  contention —
    23  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I was fined $20,000 for saying that, that
    24  is the contention in my book.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Honestly, I attach no importance, I am
    26  afraid, it must be painful for you, but it is not relevant
    .           P-163

      1  to my task that you were fined, and I know perfectly well
      2  what was constructed at Auschwitz, and, personally, as
      3  I have told you before, and I will say it again, I see
      4  nothing remotely objectionable. But to say that they are
      5  all dummies seems to me to be different matter altogther.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Yes and all invention of British propaganda, that
      7  is what Mr Rampton —
      8  MR IRVING:  I am answering in terms here, one gas chamber —
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can make that comment later on, this is
    10  re-examination, so do not —
    11  MR IRVING:  If I can comment later on.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, please.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  Now one of the things that you were cross-examined
    14  about, Professor Funke, is to be found at page 69 of your
    15  report. Again, I do not remember offhand whether or not
    16  this was challenged, in paragraph 5.3.27.
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a second.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So sorry, you will need to keep that file K3 for just a
    19  moment. We need page 69 of your report.
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes I have both. Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Before you go to the indented quotation there is some
    22  German in square brackets (German spoken); yes?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Above that you it is translated at: “The letter was
    25  headed with a quote from Irving, hundreds of millions of
    26  honest, intelligent people are being duped by extremely
    .           P-164

      1  financially strong and brilliantly made postwar
      2  propaganda”.
      3  Can you turn, please, back to tab 5 of K3 and to
      4  page 20, I think it is.
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: K3?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Same blue file.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  K3 tab 5, it is the speech in Moers and this time
      9  it is in English?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, just a second.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tab 5, page 20, the bottom of the page. Bearing in mind
    12  as you look at this what we just read in your report on
    13  page 69, which you attributed Mr Irving, we see this, and
    14  this is Mr Irving speaking, this is his speech at Moers on
    15  9th March 1990.
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In the middle of the page there is a line which
    18  begins “and this Holocaust religion”; do you see that?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He says this: “In this Holocaust religion is gaining
    21  credence in the meantime, has hundreds of millions of
    22  credible and decent people, millions of Jews amongst them,
    23  firmly believing that 6 million of their co-religionists
    24  were murdered and no one is asking them the important
    25  question: How come there are so many millions of Jews
    26  again if so many millions of them are exterminated? No
    .           P-165

      1  one asks themselves that question because you simply do
      2  not question a religion, it is a sort of blasphemy.” Do
      3  you see any resonance or similarity between what Mr Irving
      4  there said and what he said in the middle of page 69 of
      5  your report?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes. It is a kind of attacking what he calls a
      7  legend, or what he may call also a lie, that became a
      8  religion, so-called religion, of millions of honest
      9  people. So it is a kind of way of thinking that because
    10  he says the essence of the Holocaust is a lie, and the
    11  people do not believe that it is a lie, but it is the
    12  truth, this truth is a religion.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The whole story?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The whole story.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The whole story —
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The whole history of the Holocaust is a religion. They
    17  believe in, although it is not true in the essence, and
    18  this goes with a lot of — and to say this is a kind of
    19  blasphemy is, of course, a very cynical reference, cynical
    20  sentence to those who really survived, and still are
    21  living, and, of course, to those who died by this mass
    22  killings.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — it is that, that sort of sentiment, is it, which German
    24  law does not permit, the expression of that kind of
    25  sentiment in public which German law forbids?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is right. It was done again, and again it was a
    .           P-166

      1  bit sharpened in the 1980s. It was a bit changed in the
      2  middle of 1990s because of the experience of late 1990s
      3  and the early 1990s, and the people in Germany, the
      4  authorities in Germany, are very aware of what these kinds
      5  of sayings meant to people who still or have lived at that
      6  periods of time as survivors. One of them is the famous
      7  Heinz Kaminsky of the Jewish community in Berlin, who
      8  asked, because of this kind of sorrow, because of this
      9  kind of cynicism that they, the Jews in Germany after 1945
    10  experienced, to sharpen a bit these laws, as a kind of
    11  acknowledgment that it happened.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, carry on.
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As a kind of acknowledgment, recognition.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To these people that had happened, that the German people,
    16  the German public, is aware that this is done by German
    17  authorities between 1933 and 1945, and what you can call
    18  is a kind of second anti-Semitism is exactly to attack
    19  this experience of those who survived. This is again a
    20  very aggressive behaviour to those.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that one that I think you told us when you first
    22  started giving evidence, that one is one of the strands or
    23  elements in right-wing neo-Nazi policy, ideology,
    24  statement in Germany?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is at the core. For example, at even DVU
    26  presentation of Otto Butz, Hoax of the Century, that with
    .           P-167

      1  this presentation it goes very aggressive behaviour in
      2  this newspapers against all representatives, all sorts,
      3  all kinds of representatives of the Jewish community in
      4  these days. So we have a combination of this kind of
      5  denial of the memory, not only the denial of the Holocaust
      6  itself, but the memory of those survived, with the alleged
      7  financial and political mysterious strategies of the
      8  Jewish community after 1945. So you have a combination of
      9  the old racist anti-Semitism of the years before 1945,
    10  used now as a kind of second anti-Semitism, to attack the
    11  people who survived in Germany and who are, as Jewish
    12  community or Jewish individuals still, you know, nowadays
    13  in the public.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, well, now Mr Irving in this connection, and what
    15  I have to ask next flows directly from your last answer,
    16  Mr Irving put it to you that he did not break the law when
    17  he was in Germany. He went out of his way to keep on the
    18  right side of the law, I am paraphrasing; do you remember
    19  that?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you look at at page 106 of your report, please?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You write in the third line: “In Canada in October 1991
    24  Irving told his audience that the Bavarian Ministry of
    25  Justice whom Irving described in the same speech as
    26  the ‘extended arm” of ‘you know who'”, and then Funke puts
    .           P-168

      1  in brackets, “i.e. the Jewish people”. Do you have any
      2  reason to revise that parenthesis Professor Funke, the
      3  Jewish people?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I have not.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. Then comes: “Wanted to talk to me about certain
      6  things I have done and said in Germany. Well, what I do
      7  and say in Germany unfortunately does violate the law in
      8  Germany. I am well aware of that, and I go round from
      9  meeting place to meeting place in Germany now quite
    10  voluntarily sticking my neck out, because Germany is one
    11  of the most difficult places in the world to speak now”.
    12  Professor Funke, speak about what, is my
    13  question? About what is it difficult to speak in Germany
    14  now?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, especially about his revised version of the Holocaust
    16  Nazi period.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One small point in passing. Mr Irving was putting it to
    18  you that the Munich city authorities had done something or
    19  other, and he used the form of words: “The Munich city
    20  authorities of the German Reich”?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I heard that.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I know you did and you showed some surprise. You said “of
    23  what?”, and he said, “of the German Reich”. Now why did
    24  you show surprise?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because the German Reich is a clear defined term in
    26  post-Nazi Germany, to the Nazi Reich, not to any sort
    .           P-169

      1  of —-
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There has never been a fourth Reich?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Up to now not.
      4  MR IRVING:  The actual quotation was that the Munich city
      5  authorities have succeeded in getting my banned from the
      6  entire German Reich.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I think you are slightly missing —
      8  well, I doubt whether they put it that way — I think you
      9  are missing the point. I did notice that Professor Funke
    10  was surprised.
    11  MR IRVING:  It was meant to be sarcastic of course.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was it right?
    13  MR RAMPTON:  Oh was it? Very well. I will leave it in that
    14  condition, if I may.
    15  MR IRVING:  I thought an expert in sarcasm would recognise
    16  that.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We will move on.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  I have to say I thought it a slip of the tongue.
    19  It leads to my next question, which is this. It is a
    20  series of questions, Professor Funke. You have told us
    21  that these neo-Nazi groups, right-wing extremists, there
    22  was a convergence in the late 80s, early 90s?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of which the Wahrheit macht Frei event at Munich in 1990
    25  was a notable sort of a marker. Have I got that right?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    .           P-170

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You told us that anti-Semitism is one of the notable
      2  features of this convergence?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of which obviously a feature is Holocaust denial. You
      5  have explained that too. Mr Irving said, and you agreed
      6  with him, that when he goes to Germany he does not talk
      7  only about Holocaust denial, yes?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can I ask you whether any of the following things form
    10  any, from your knowledge of this topic, this field, any of
    11  the following things form any part of right-wing extreme
    12  or neo-Nazi policy or ideology. First, to try to
    13  absolve — do you know that word, excuse — excuse the
    14  Nazis of blame for the outbreak of the Second World War,
    15  is that part of it or not?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is the question of so-called allein Schuld.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which is?
    20  THE INTERPRETER:  Exclusive guilt.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  Do they have a tendency at all to try to blame
    23  Winston Churchill for the outbreak of war?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, can I interrupt because I am not
    25  quite sure what you are asking. You are asking about
    26  topics which do not come within the umbrella of Holocaust
    .           P-171

      1  denial.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  It has an end result.
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Yes, of course they questioned the role of Churchill
      4  to degree that they attack the role of, you know, reacting
      5  to the aggression that was done by the Hitler regime in
      6  39.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do they tend in any way to focus rather on so-called
      8  allied atrocities or war crimes such as the bombing of
      9  Dresden?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is often the case that there is a kind of
    11  counterbalance.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, they try to make a balance?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To minimise the own atrocities.
    14  THE INTERPRETER:  They are setting one off against the other.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  What I in this court have called a false
    17  equivalence?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is criticised, this kind of revisionists
    19  historians are criticised exactly with this kind of
    20  assessment.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do they have any tendency to glorify what they see as Nazi
    22  war heroes?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is very much the case, if I go through the 70s
    24  already and the 80s you have always this kind of appraisal
    25  of war heroes, of Judet, of Ruddell, of Dall, of Rommel,
    26  those who are identified with the Nazi cause and those who
    .           P-172

      1  are not identified but.
      2  THE INTERPRETER:  “Praise” rather than “appraisal”.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Do they include General Remer in this galaxy of
      4  stars?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is one of the most accepted heroes in that camp,
      6  because, as you may recall, of his courage to crush down
      7  the coup, the attempt of the resistance fighters within
      8  the Army of 20th July, 44, around Stuffenberg, Gurdella
      9  and others.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do they ever speak of the prospects of establishing a
    11  greater Germany?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course we did not tackle that too much. This is of
    13  course the centre of their belief system, that they have
    14  to renew a greater Germany. We more addressed the
    15  attention to the so-called second revolution of the Kuhnen
    16  connection, but the broader perspective is of course to
    17  build a new or greater Germany that extends the borders of
    18  Germany now that are internationally accepted.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do they propose what the ethnic or racial composition of
    20  this greater Germany will be?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They include normally so-called ethnic Germans, Germans by
    22  ethnic dissent, or they even say by Aryan race dissent, if
    23  it is possible to say by Aryan race dissent.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In which geographical direction do they tend to see this
    25  expansion, Westwards, Eastwards, South, North?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Especially to the East, to the Northeast, to the East and
    .           P-173

      1  to a degree to the Southeast.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: To include what, for example, the parts of the Reich that
      3  were formed after the invasion of Poland?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is the main cause. This has always have been
      5  the cause in the right-wing circles and beyond in the
      6  right-wing extremist circles to attack the borderline in
      7  the —-
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The Odanisa(?) Line we call it.
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: How do you call it?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The Odanisa line.
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Finally this. Do they ever make a claim or a proposal
    13  that the Germans should be compensated, for example, by
    14  the Poles, for the land which the Poles have occupied
    15  since the end of the war?
    16  MR IRVING:  I cannot really see the point of all this.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  You will in a moment.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it is fair.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  You will in a moment.
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, they say this is almost not so densely populated
    21  areas, so they can move or they try to rebuild German
    22  ethnic circles, and one of these people we are talking
    23  about were very active to do so in the Kalingrad area, for
    24  example, but also in the Baltic states, and especially in
    25  Silesia and in West Prussia, in former Silesia I have to
    26  say, in the West part of Poland.
    .           P-174

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Thank you very much. Now I think I would like you
      2  to look at a document, will you please. My Lord, this is
      3  in RWE at tab 7, page 81. It is part of the Frey
      4  section. What I am going to do, if I may, is hand up a
      5  clip containing the German and an English translation of
      6  the relevant part, the first part of the German.
      7  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not sure this is proper material for
      8  re-examination.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not know what it is yet.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  This is an Irving document.
    11  MR IRVING:  That does not make it necessarily proper material
    12  for re-examination.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is true. Let us hear what it is and
    14  then we can make up —-
    15  MR RAMPTON:  It arises directly out of Mr Irving’s suggestion
    16  that he does not talk only about Holocaust denial when he
    17  is Germany.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If it does that seems to me to be legitimate.
    19  MR IRVING:  I have no objection.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Of course your Lordship will remember that our
    21  case is not simply that Mr Irving is a racist and an
    22  anti-Semite, but that he is a right-wing extremist with
    23  sympathies, deep sympathies for the Nazi regime. This is
    24  directly relevant to that. Have you seen this before,
    25  Professor Funke? Look at the German document.
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes I saw.
    .           P-175

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it the top page a translation of what
      2  comes later?
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, the top page takes us down to — I must use
      4  my own copy otherwise I get lost.
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is a red line somewhere.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The red line is mine. Can I have mine back. Does the
      7  English, Dr Funke, take us down to the words on the first
      8  page of the German: (German spoken – document not
      9  provided)?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. I will read the entire —-
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Your red line.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My read line, yes. That is right. First of all, please,
    14  it is sent by in Irving from Keywest in Florida to Dr Frey
    15  and to his lawyer, Dr Von Spranger, yes?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One sees that it is dated 30th January 1991.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Frey is the publisher, is that right?
    19  MR RAMPTON:  It is what?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is Frey publisher?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  No, Frey is the head of the DVU.
    22  MR IRVING:  He is also a publisher.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  He may also be a publisher but that is by the way
    24  for present purposes. Dr Spranger I think is lawyer both
    25  for Mr Irving and for Christian Worch.
    26  MR IRVING:  My Lord, will you let me re-cross on this?
    .           P-176

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a new document and I will, yes.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. Is there any significance in the date, do
      3  you think, Professor Funke, of 30th January?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the circumstances of the court issue, of course, it is
      5  a day when Adolf Hitler got into power in 1933.
      6  MR IRVING:  I do not see the date. Where is the date?
      7  MR RAMPTON:  The 30th January 1991.
      8  MR IRVING:  The letter is dated?
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, 30th January 1991. The temperature, in which
    10  we may be interested, was 28 degrees centigrade or
    11  Celsius, perhaps that does not matter. We have left that
    12  off the translation.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, you have not, you have just put it on the
    14  next line.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Sorry. I do not know what the message was to
    16  which this was a reply, but plainly, you may think,
    17  Dr Funke, it is what one might call a scenario draft,
    18  whatever you call it, for a speech, because what the third
    19  line says in English is, or an article it might be, I do
    20  not know: “The topic will be Germany’s new role as great
    21  power”, is that right?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you want to follow in German, please do, beginning:
    24  “I come late but honestly. Furthermore, I intend” —
    25  this is not supposed to be literary, so Mr Irving may not
    26  like it — “Furthermore, I intend initially to point to my
    .           P-177

      1  prophecy of 3.10.89!” Why, in your view, Dr Funke, the
      2  exclamation mark behind the date?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because a year later there was a formal unification act at
      4  3rd October ’90. Maybe this is the reason.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Am I right that Adolf Hitler made a speech in the
      6  Reichstag, a rather famous speech, on 30th January 1939?
      7  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And did he in that speech repeat what he had said on the
      9  3rd October 1989 — I mean —-
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh, yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, let us start again. In 1938?
    12  MR IRVING:  I hope it gets better than this.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, Mr Irving.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Well, I think it does, if I may say so.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I hope so.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Start again. There was a famous speech by Adolf
    17  Hitler on 30th January 1939 in the Reichstag?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did he in that speech repeat something he had said on 3rd
    20  October 1938?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He referred to if there is a war then this will cause much
    22  damage to the Jews.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is it unfair in the light of these dates to see Mr Irving
    24  standing in one of those smart Nazi uniforms while he
    25  makes this prophecy?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we will move on.
    .           P-178

      1  MR RAMPTON:  I will go on. I want to be serious now.
      2  MR IRVING:  In view of the fact that I have hurried through my
      3  own cross-examination in order to make space for
      4  re-examination, I am beginning to regret it.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on anyway.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  “Made at a press conference in Berlin, namely that
      7  Germany would be reunited within 12 months”, and that is a
      8  prophecy which came true. “My reputation as prophet being
      9  confirmed, I will allow myself some prognoses for the
    10  coming five, ten, fifteen years. Within these I see the
    11  possibility of a conversion of the Austrian economy to
    12  German marks, a political drawing together of the German
    13  speaking peoples of Europa” or Europe?
    14  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Europe.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “The emergence of a German economic community with an
    16  incredible potential for the German mark within the next
    17  ten years, with the possibility of gradually outplaying
    18  the EEC. Germany would use this economic power in order
    19  to help the backward countries in the East of Europe,
    20  therefore expand a kind of German empire”, “imperium”
    21  I think is the word?
    22  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “In the East. The German economic hegemony would then, in
    24  the course of ten to twenty years, extend to Poland, the
    25  Ukraine, White Russia and the original German sphere of
    26  interest the Baltic States. Within the framework of a
    .           P-179

      1  just settlement with Warsaw, in which the partial
      2  repayment of the Polish debts should play a not
      3  insignificant role, it would result in a return of the
      4  German Eastern territories, only sparsely settled by Poles
      5  anyway. In the framework of a partnership with the Russia
      6  people, but mind you not the criminal Soviet
      7  government” — January 1991? Well, never mind. “It would
      8  also result in a blossoming of the Russian economy and a
      9  return of Kalingrad and Northeast Prussia to Germany. In
    10  this context the events in Latvia play a role that can
    11  barely be overestimated”.
    12  Assume, if you will, Dr Funke for the moment
    13  that that was going to form the topic of an article or a
    14  speech amongst one of these right-wing groups in Germany,
    15  how do you calculate its likely popularity?
    16  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean because of the subtle strategical tone in this
    17  piece, it may be perceived as a kind of authoritative
    18  speech to this audience, because what is done in this
    19  piece is to take the economic strategies, the economic
    20  widening of the influence of the German mark area, to get
    21  to a political resettling of borders and this is the point
    22  that people of that kind of camp are interested in, you
    23  know, to re-arrange the borders in Eastern and near
    24  Eastern, central East Europe, and using conflicts between
    25  the ethnics, different ethnics with respect to the German
    26  ethnic interests or resettling aspects. So this is to the
    .           P-180

      1  core of those activism of right-wingers in the early 90s.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then I will in the light of that answer show you, if
      3  I may, the Halle transcript. I am afraid here we have not
      4  had time to transcribe the German, but we have translated
      5  it directly off the tape on to the page, which clever
      6  people can do.
      7  MR IRVING:  Is this my transcript or your transcript?
      8  MR RAMPTON:  No, this is one we did last night directly from
      9  the tape. I have already said.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are we going to put this, Mr Rampton?
    11  MR RAMPTON:  It maybe could go no the Worch section of RWE 2
    12  which is section 11 I think.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If somebody can provide the page?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  26A and B.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  26A, yes.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  I would like you, Dr Funke, it is was done very
    17  quickly, I know, we have not got the German, but I would
    18  like you to look at the bottom of the page seven lines up,
    19  at the end of line he says: “I as an Englishman”, have
    20  you got that?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “I as an Englishman must say I am really jealous of what
    23  will happen to Germany in the next five or ten or fifteen
    24  years”, remember those figures?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then in brackets applause?
    .           P-181

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does the applause in this context for these sorts of
      3  words, does the applause surprise you or not?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Does it?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does the applause surprise you or not?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “In the next ten years you will get back the
      8  (unintelligible word) Eastern areas which today
      9  (unintelligible phrase). You will probably gain the
    10  financial, the economic hegemony over all the previously
    11  lost countries of the former Soviet empire. The
    12  Germans … apparent cut, there you have to be careful
    13  because then the foreign countries, then the western
    14  powers, will do everything to prevent this happening, even
    15  when today the Federal Chancellor Kohl speaks about
    16  apparent cut, the future of England can only be secured in
    17  common friendship with the new Germany. In this sense
    18  I stand by the parole, we might say the phrase, Germany
    19  first, cheers and shouts of sieg heil”.
    20  MR IRVING:  “First” is wrong. It is “forward”.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  “Germany forwards”. Are you reading on? Then
    22  Worch makes an appreciative speech. How do you
    23  characterize, Professor Funke, those kinds of sentiments
    24  to an audience of this nature?
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It plays with this greater Germany feelings of that kind
    26  of people. Clearly it refers before to the matter of the
    .           P-182

      1  Third Reich, the so-called matter of the Third Reich, to
      2  Rudolf Hess, a man of peace, who did the peace, according
      3  to Irving, with England, so then there is a reference to
      4  the joint, you know, venture he is up to between the white
      5  England and the white dominated or what have you Germany
      6  to have a hegemony over the always criticised East, the
      7  Bolshevik and post-Bolshevik East. It is alluding to the
      8  former critics to the Soviet empire. There you have again
      9  these kind of ideas how to manage it to have this greater
    10  Germany. It includes a kind of implication that this
    11  cannot be without very intense conflicts with the western
    12  Allies or Western nations in the whole. So this is a
    13  phrase that also you have again and again, that there will
    14  be some kind of conflict, even war, be it internally or be
    15  it internationally, and here you have a kind of subtle
    16  hint that they will do it, the bigger Germany, the greater
    17  German activists will do it, and it will cause conflicts
    18  with the Western nations. I have to say as a political
    19  scientist that of course the border thing in Europe of 89
    20  follows, is one of the most debated and dangerous things
    21  we have, and this is true, as you know, also for the last
    22  century. Gottfried Kussel, for example, said in this very
    23  Halle, you know, meeting just before this event happened
    24  that, if it is necessary, I do not want it, but if it is
    25  necessary, we will have an internal war; we will have a
    26  civil war in these countries, and as an Austrian he refers
    .           P-183

      1  to Germany and Austria.
      2  So you have this kind of war-mongering or at
      3  least implicationing of wars in this whole right-wing
      4  extremist utterances.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. There is only one other thing about this
      6  script or transcript, translation. On the second page it
      7  says: “The future of England can only be secured in common
      8  friendship with the new Germany.” You talked about the
      9  white England. Am I right, correct me if my history is
    10  wrong, did Hitler have an idea that England was the
    11  repository of some kind of pure Aryan race with whom he
    12  would like to be friends?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it was always his wavering not to be faced with a war
    14  with Great Britain, and in that sense these kind of white
    15  Aryan feelings are widespread also during the Nazi period
    16  and especially Hitler himself.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just before we leave this document which representing
    18  Mr Irving’s words we think in Halle in 1991, just look at
    19  the top of the page. In the light of the answers you gave
    20  earlier, well, we start at the top of Mr Irving’s speech:
    21  “My dear Germans, I have known you for 30 years since
    22  I worked here for a year as steelworker in West Germany,
    23  and I as the first historian in the world wrote a book
    24  about the destruction of the German city, the middle
    25  German city Dresden, therefore, I have no fear to write
    26  the truth about what we, the English, committed against
    .           P-184

      1  the German people in terms of war crimes during the Second
      2  World War. I welcome it.” Then there is applause and
      3  cheers. Does that surprise you, Professor Funke?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not at all. It shows, especially for these people, a
      5  clear identification with this kind of greater Germany
      6  thing, this kind of Nazi past, the past of heroic things,
      7  whereas, so to speak, those who realize the reasons of the
      8  more political and military defeat of national socialism,
      9  they in a way say in different forms, that of course this
    10  Second World War by Churchill and the Americans, and even
    11  the Soviets, had to be done to crush Adolf Hitler down.
    12  This is, so to speak, the alternative level consensus of
    13  postwar Germany.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you.
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Only because of that, just to put another sentence to it,
    16  only because of this defeat there was a chance to rebuild
    17  democracy, and that means especially the recognition of
    18  human dignity of the basic human rights.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. There is one other document and it is my last
    20  topic in re-examination, Professor Funke, that I want you
    21  to look at. You remember that there was quite a lot of
    22  cross-examination about the meeting in what I call Hagenau
    23  because it is a French town but what Mr Irving calls
    24  Hagenau, I would like to show you, if I may, a part
    25  transcript and part translation, I say “part transcript
    26  and part translation” because that is all there is we can
    .           P-185

      1  intelligently transcribe. The date of this I think is
      2  sometime in November 1989 or something like that, 12th
      3  November 1989, that is right.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is it going to go?
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It had better go in tab 15 of the second volume,
      6  my Lord, 18A.
      7  MR IRVING:  My Lord, these heavily redacted excerpts of dubious
      8  provenance.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  They not dubious. They were done by the lady who
    10  is the interpreter over there. There is nothing the least
    11  bit dubious about it.
    12  MR IRVING:  It is the redaction that I am worried about and the
    13  editing of the cuts.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  We can take that up later.
    15  MR IRVING:  I think this is the time it should be taken up.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think that is right.
    17  MR IRVING:  We do not know what use Mr Rampton is going to make
    18  of them.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  If I may ask the Interpreter, this will clear this
    20  up. Is there anything on the tape which is not in this
    21  paper?
    22  THE INTERPRETER:  This is a full transcript and translation of
    23  anything that was on the tape and that was audible and
    24  identifiable.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see. At the end we have the whole of the
    26  tape in German, is that right?
    .           P-186

      1  THE INTERPRETER:  The parts in italics are transcription and
      2  the non-italic text is the translation of those passages.
      3  MR IRVING:  My Lord, this is the transcript of the thrice
      4  redacted tape about which your Lordship was already raised
      5  eyebrows.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think what I am going to do is let
      7  Mr Rampton carry on, because I suspect it would be
      8  desirable that Professor Funke’s evidence is concludeed
      9  this evening.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Exactly.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you think you have been taken out of
    12  context, you can revert to this without the need for a
    13  witness. All right.
    14  MR IRVING:  With your Lordship’s leave I shall remain standing
    15  in case I wish to object.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think you need to take that course.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  I will carry on.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Carry on, on that footing that Mr Irving can
    19  come back.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  If there is anything he thinks is fishy about this
    21  or there is more he wants by all means.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not fish. It is just we have not got
    23  the whole of it.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  I know.
    25  MR IRVING:  My Lord, because you rightly objected to the
    26  introduction of this heavily edited tape yesterday in that
    .           P-187

      1  form, and we agreed to use it on the basis of a rogues
      2  gallery, and now through the back door they are trying to
      3  slide this transcript under the door to us —-
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am actually giving you give a bit of an
      5  indulgence, because I am saying you can come back to this
      6  if you need to, not this evening, I mean whenever it is
      7  convenient to you, with the rest that is missing that has
      8  been redacted.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Anything he likes. If I had the whole recording
    10  of that meeting, nobody would be more delighted than
    11  I, but I have not. There is no doubt that these people
    12  are who they are, and there is no doubt that this, amongst
    13  other things, is what they say either, so far as I know.
    14  MR IRVING:  The implication is given of course that I am
    15  present while all these things are being said and putting
    16  up with it.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Most of what is said here is said by Mr Irving and
    18  it is upon what Mr Irving says —-
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Lets press on. Mr Irving —-
    20  MR RAMPTON:  — that I chiefly rely.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — if you would just bear with Mr Rampton.
    22  He is going to go through it. You can come back to this
    23  later if you think it is appropriate. Yes, Mr Rampton.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  Then there is something about Zundel on the top
    25  part of the page: “Surprised to encounter my very special
    26  friend Ernest Zundel”, I do know who that was, something
    .           P-188

      1  in French. Translator: “If I had known I was going to
      2  find Zundel here I would have brought him a present”.
      3  Cut. Then we get speaker and I can tell your Lordship
      4  this is Zundel. Then the German is transcribed and it is
      5  then translated as follows. Please, Professor, follow the
      6  translation by looking at the German, if you will.
      7  “We decent Germans, wallowing in this dirt”,
      8  yes?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Pigsty”?
    11  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, right.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sow stall. “Und fullen” is wallowing, is it?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “This base lie against our people”, yes?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Folk, people, yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Which this Jewish rabble”, Judenpack “has been spreading,
    17  I have had it up to here”?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that a good translation, in your view?
    20  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, definitely.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. Then we get Mr Irving speaking in German, and
    22  translated on the next page.
    23  MR IRVING:  We have had all this put to us in the video
    24  yesterday, my Lord. Why is he having a second bite of the
    25  cherry?
    26  MR RAMPTON:  Because I am going to ask —-
    .           P-189

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have not got the question yet.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  We had not had the transcript yesterday. We had
      3  the tape and now I want to look at the words. Then I will
      4  ask a question. “And it was once again a one-man gas
      5  chamber, a one-man gas chamber carried around through the
      6  Polish countryside by two soldiers looking for the odd
      7  Jew, literally for individual Jews. This one-man gas
      8  chamber looked somewhat like sadan chair, I believe, but
      9  it was camouflaged as a telephone box, and one asks
    10  oneself: How did they get the poor soul of a victim to
    11  enter this one-man gas chamber voluntarily? Answer: There
    12  was probably a telephone bell inside it and it rang and
    13  the soldiers told him: “I think that’s for you”. Cut to
    14  laughing audience.
    15  MR IRVING:  My Lord, cut to laughing audience implies that the
    16  audience was laughing at that, and it was just a piece of
    17  laughing audience sliced in there. So I object to the
    18  phrase “cut to”.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Professor Funke, we know that at this meeting,
    20  because we saw them on the screen were Mr Faurisson, nice
    21  Mr Zundel, Christian Worch, Judge Staglich, Mr Irving of
    22  course, and we were not sure but we thought maybe Arthur
    23  Butz and Karl Philipp, do you remember?
    24  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If remarks of that kind, one might call it a joke in the
    26  very worst possible taste, I do not know, if a joke of
    .           P-190

      1  that kind were made in that company and others of like
      2  mind, would you expect laughter from people like that or
      3  not?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, a special laughter, identifying —-
      5  MR IRVING:  Why did Mr Rampton describe this as a joke?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, it is not helpful really for you
      7  to keep interrupting. You might even give me the wrong
      8  impression by your continued interruptions. Those words
      9  were spoken by you.
    10  MR IRVING:  As a quotation from a document, yes, and for
    11  Mr Rampton to describe it as being a joke by me is
    12  offensive.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say there was probably a telephone
    14  bell inside and it rang and the soldiers told him,
    15  “I think that’s for you”, what was —-
    16  MR RAMPTON:  What is the document? May we have it, my Lord?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry?
    18  MR RAMPTON:  I was wondering whether this document should be
    19  disclosed. I have never seen it, a quotation from a
    20  document. It may be the draft of Mr Irving’s speech.
    21  I do not know.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have this now. Do not let us chase that.
    23  I am conscious of slight constraints of time.
    24  MR IRVING:  I will not interrupt again but I find it repugnant
    25  that he should have two bites of the cherry like this.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  It may be, my Lord, that others in this room,
    .           P-191

      1  including your Lordship, most particularly your Lordship,
      2  find if repugnant that Mr Irving should have said anything
      3  of this kind at all ever in his whole life.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That as maybe. I am not, Mr Irving, giving
      5  Mr Rampton two bites of the cherry. If you remember what
      6  happened yesterday, I decided that it was wrong to have
      7  the German translated by Professor Funke as we went along,
      8  and I therefore said that the video should be relied only
      9  for who they showed you in company with. I invited, this
    10  is my recollection, Mr Rampton if he wanted to rely on
    11  what you had said to prepare a translation and then we
    12  could do it properly. I think that is exactly what
    13  Mr Rampton is doing.
    14  MR IRVING:  These are heavily edited excerpts which are
    15  produced for a rogues’ gallery purpose which are now being
    16  used for their excerpt value which is unfair to me.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have given you permission, Mr Irving, later
    18  on to tell me in what way the context can affect what you
    19  said about one man gas chambers being taken around the
    20  Polish countryside by two soldiers.
    21  MR IRVING:  Your Lordship is familiar with the —-
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you are able to produce anything that
    23  affects the meaning, then please do so, but not now.
    24  MR IRVING:  Your Lordship is familiar with the context,
    25  I think.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Rampton, would you like to —-
    .           P-192

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving has the advantage of me, I have to say.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — press on?
      3  MR RAMPTON:  I will. Then we cut to Irving again and then we
      4  have some more German. Lots of question marks because the
      5  poor old translator, I dare say, could not pick up what
      6  the Hitler pick up what the words were. Anyhow, let us
      7  read the fragment that we have got, may we? “Now, to
      8  solve the enigma of the Auschwitz gas chambers, last
      9  October the Vatigan established that, according to carbon
    10  dating, the something or other probably without
    11  doubt”, literally in German without objection, “dates from
    12  the years between 12.60 and 13.90, but some scientists
    13  argue that the wholly energy [blank] a body [blank] during
    14  resurrection the [blank] would have lifted up [blank]”.
    15  Do you follow that? If you would like to look at the
    16  German, do you follow the drift of that thought, Professor
    17  Funke?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems, but help me, that it is referring to.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Turin Shroud I should think, is it, or
    20  not?
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To the shrine, right.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  That is right, but transferring if I could —-
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure that it is really a matter of
    24  evidence, this, I think it is a matter of —-
    25  MR RAMPTON:  No, it is a matter of what it says, I agree. It
    26  is matter of comment and it is a matter in the end for
    .           P-193

      1  your Lordship what its drift is.
      2  My final question is this, having regard
      3  Professor Funke, to the content of those little extracts
      4  that we have from the meeting at Hagenau, yes? According
      5  to your knowledge of right-wing extremism and neo-Naziism
      6  in Germany, are these sorts of things which are said here,
      7  whether by Mr Irving or by Mr Zundel, are they in any way
      8  characteristic of the views and attitudes of neofascists
      9  in Germany?
    10  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to give a differentiated answer. It is in that
    11  intensity of radical racist anti-Semitism, not a common
    12  language of all right-wingers. Parts of the right-wing
    13  extremists are more soft alluding to some aspects of what
    14  I said is a second anti-Semitism. So they criticise
    15  Galinski and nowadays Jewish leaders.
    16  So this kind of openly rage-based anti-Semitism,
    17  this full scale of contempt like in the word Juden Pack,
    18  this absolutely cynicism with which Irving is referring to
    19  the most deep causing sorrows of the people of the Jewish
    20  descent, this kind of extreme radical racist, post
    21  Holocaust anti-Semitism is more at the core of these
    22  groups that I call neo-National Socialists and those who
    23  are influenced as skinheads, as youngsters by these
    24  groupings, and what I have to say, according to social
    25  sciences surveys that are done in the Institute of anti-,
    26  to analyse anti-Semitism in Berlin is that this kind of
    .           P-194

      1  radical anti-Semitism, let us say where it is researched
      2  in the Branbuch area around Berlin is widespread within
      3  these circles. So you have on different levels,
      4  especially among male youngsters of middle education, you
      5  have this kind of anti-Semitism widespread. This is the
      6  very reason that the amount of destroying Jewish
      7  cemeteries, for example, the very well-known Wiesensee
      8  Cemetery or the grave, is it right, the grave of Heinz
      9  Galinski by a bomb attack, that this is caused by this
    10  kind of widespreading new kind of aggressive anti-Semitism
    11  within these circles.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  Thank you very much indeed, Professor.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that should go, just so that we know
    14  where it is, in tab 15 of RWE 2, page?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, page 18A and B but only the Hagenau bit
    16  because attached to it is some Munich, I think. The
    17  Leuchter conference — well, that is Munich. Oh, a
    18  different Leuchter. It is not the Leuchter Congress. It
    19  is the Leuchter Conference.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    21  MR IRVING:  My Lord, may I question for five minutes, please?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course. One of the documents was the
    23  letter to Dr Frey?
    24  MR IRVING:  Yes, on each of those documents, but in reverse
    25  order. I think that is the most helpful.

    Part IV: Dr. Funke further Cross-Examined by Irving 195.26 to 204.18

    26  < Further Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
    .           P-195

      1  MR IRVING:  Professor Funke, you said that these kinds of
      2  remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters are liable
      3  to lead to attacks on synagogues and so on, is that
      4  the —-
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again. Excuse me.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Referring to my remarks at Hagenau (which I will discuss
      7  with you in a moment) “addressed to skinheads and
      8  youngsters”, that was your phrase, would be liable to
      9  cause the kind of circumstances you referred to there,
    10  like tombstones being overthrown, synagogues attacked, and
    11  so on?
    12  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This kind of rhetoric, yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask you just to have a look at the photograph,
    14  please, on page 15 of the bundle of photographs which is
    15  the audience at Hagenau and tell me how many skinheads and
    16  youngsters you can see in it?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well…
    18  MR IRVING:  My Lord, he said, it is a hypothetical thing, “If
    19  these remarks had been addressed to skinheads and
    20  youngsters, that would have been the outcome”.
    21  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is researched. It is researched. It is the
    22  [German] research — you may know it — about the
    23  widespreading of anti-Semites within male youngsters who
    24  are often the same token very violent.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Answering Mr Rampton’s question, you said that these
    26  remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters would have
    .           P-196

      1  these undesirable effects and you are probably right. But
      2  if you look at the audience who were listening —-
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course, the audience is different.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Middle aged?
      5  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, with the exception of Christian Worch and his gang.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Right. I am only going to refer briefly to the one man
      7  gas chamber. If I am lecturing an audience on the
      8  improbabilities of aspects of the Holocaust legend and, as
      9  this court well knows, I criticise the quality of a lot of
    10  the eyewitness evidence, and if one of the eyewitnesses,
    11  and we know there is a lot of lurid eyewitness evidence
    12  that we can discard, has described this rather improbable
    13  contraption, would that fit the description of what I have
    14  described in that speech?
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What you are doing here is that you pretend that the
    16  eyewitnesses are excessing —-
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Exaggerating?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — exaggerating and producing legends, but I have to be
    19  now very personal. I did a book of those, it is called
    20  “Other Memory” of those who left Germany because of the
    21  pressure and later on the torture by the Nazi
    22  authorities. Social scientists, like Eric Ericson,
    23  Zaufriedlende, and what I learned as the essence of this
    24  encounter in the late ’80s and at the time we are talking
    25  about, is, and I quote Zaufriedlende of the historian, the
    26  famous, that all those, excuse me —-
    .           P-197

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you just answer the question about this being a piece
      2  of lurid eyewitness evidence?
      3  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That all those — I do — that all those who went through
      4  this horror —-
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: The trauma?
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — the trauma — right, thank you — cannot do this kind
      7  of research just as an objective historian. They have to
      8  do the objectivity and, on the other hand, they have to
      9  always rely to the experiences they themselves or their
    10  families went through. So, in other words, I would say no
    11  to all those who discard eyewitnesses. That does not say
    12  that the reconstruction of the Auschwitz horror, the
    13  cosmos of death — if you go there you would see, you
    14  would sense it even today — that the essence of this
    15  trauma and terror done by these Jews there, the mass
    16  gassing included, that this has been reconstructed by
    17  various means, and I think Peter Longerich did an awful
    18  good witness statement and paper to that, together with
    19  Mr Van Pelt. And so it is very clear that you cannot only
    20  count on the description of the eyewitnesses, although it
    21  is especially for the subjectivity what they went through
    22  very decisive.
    23  So to quote your reference to Dresden, the
    24  Dresden thing are horror for a lot of people and you refer
    25  to the ashes of Dresden, but you cannot do it only — you
    26  can do it only if you refer in the same token to the ashes
    .           P-198

      1  of Auschwitz.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Right, but now let me put it like this. If in a speech
      3  I make a number of references to the appalling horrors
      4  undoubtedly suffered by the victims of Auschwitz, and
      5  I have never made any attempt to minimize them and I
      6  have referred to the shootings in Russia, I have quoted
      7  the Bruns report, and, on the other hand, I then mock the
      8  eyewitnesses who have obviously lied for whatever reason
      9  and dreamed up these totally ludicrous stories about the
    10  one man portable gas chamber, is it not dishonest, in your
    11  view, for somebody to take just that passage out and put
    12  that as a representation of my entire speech?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is, what you are doing is again and again. Look at the
    14  40 pages that was with the help of our assistant, Thomas
    15  Robins and Dunn, on the anti-Semitic or the rhetoric you
    16  did on this issue. So I recall just another quotation of
    17  you. So if it would be one time, we can cross over, but
    18  you did it again and again, and you just minutes ago
    19  referred that mass gassings did not happen. So if this,
    20  as long as this is the case, I cannot say yes to any of
    21  this kind of cynicism that you put to the public. Let me
    22  just recall this other quotation.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: If it is relevant, please?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is relevant to the question —-
    25  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — but we do not want a lot of speeches?
    .           P-199

      1  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is very short. It is like that you say, OK, this kind
      2  of survivors of the Holocaust, and you put it up in the
      3  way that you can quote it as “assholes”. This cannot be.
      4  If you honestly, if you seriously, are saying that you
      5  realize the trauma of those who went through, if they
      6  survived.
      7  MR IRVING:  Can I now take you to the letter dated 30th January
      8  1991 which has been introduced by Mr Rampton?
      9  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Firstly, the question of the date. I do not know whether
    11  Mr Rampton meant it seriously or not, but as he said it
    12  I have to comment on it, if the letter is dated 30th
    13  January 1991, and if you look at the very top line, it
    14  is —-
    15  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me, I missed it. 9th November or?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: 30th January?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  30th January 1991, Dr Frey?
    18  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    19  MR IRVING:  Yes. If you look at the very top line, the fax
    20  line, it was faxed at 1.13 p.m. on the following day.
    21  Then the letter was probably written on January 30th,
    22  right?
    23  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: OK. If you turn the page, please, do you see I describe
    25  there that a number of great Germans I intend to talk
    26  about, the Nobel Prize winner, Otto Hahn and
    .           P-200

      1  Wernerheisenbger?
      2  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: They are not leading Nazis, are they?
      4  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the great —-
      6  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Although some of them I partially —-
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not leading Nazis, the answer is no?
      8  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not leading Nazis, right. Excuse me.
      9  MR IRVING:  The final sentence of the letter above the
    10  signature, I say: “Of course, as always at DVU functions,
    11  I am not going to mention the Jews or the concentration or
    12  extermination camps with one word”?
    13  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then the final sentence of the PS is: “I will most
    15  painfully keep within the laws of Germany, the Federal
    16  Republic”?
    17  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes?
    19  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: On the general matter, the proposition raised by
    21  Mr Rampton, that it is right-wingest to look to reunify
    22  Germany and all the rest of the things that he said, can
    23  I remind you of what the German constitution says every
    24  German citizen is beholden to do? Do you know the passage
    25  I am referring to?
    26  A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Tell me. I have the constitution here. What do you
    .           P-201

      1  mean?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not think we need to…
      3  MR IRVING:  Is not every German citizen held to strive for the
      4  reunification of the German territories?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are not doing justice to
      6  Mr Rampton’s point. He was not just talking about
      7  the reunification of Germany.
      8  MR IRVING:  I was once again dealing with it piecemeal.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know it is difficult.
    10  MR IRVING:  And I am sorry that that was not appreciated.
    11  THE WITNESS:  [Dr Hajo Funke]: It never meant unification includes parts of
    12  Poland, it never meant.
    13  MR IRVING:  Thank you very much, Professor.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. Professor Funke, that completes
    15  your evidence. Thank you very much.
    16  < (The witness withdrew)
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, can I just mention
    18  that, in addition to the remaining cross-examination,
    19  there are several other outstanding things. I am sure you
    20  have them in mind. There is an argument about whether the
    21  expert reports of Eatwell and Levin can go in.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  No, I do not want them.
    23  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I was about to make the opposite
    24  concession.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  I do not mind. I do not want them.
    26  MR IRVING:  My friend said that if Mr Rampton had argued on the
    .           P-202

      1  basis of those authorities that he was entitled to, then
      2  who were we to argue against him?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is kind, but if he does not want to,
      4  then the question ends. I have feeling there are some
      5  loose ends on Civil Evidence Act Notices in relation to
      6  Moscow?
      7  MR RAMPTON:  No, I do not think so. I think all the Moscow
      8  evidence I need has come from Mr Irving actually probably.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  It is only the American factual witnesses and they
    11  are in proper condition because they have had Civil
    12  Evidence Act Notices.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We need to at any rate identify those
    14  and —-
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I need them for the underlying material in due
    16  course, but whether I do any cross-examination is a
    17  different matter.
    18  MR IRVING:  At what stage can I make submissions on the
    19  American factual witnesses, my Lord?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You do not, I think, have much of a legal
    21  submission you could make. They are overseas. You have
    22  had a notice, but I am not saying do not, but at the
    23  moment I do not quite see how you can keep those
    24  statements out.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  What Mr Irving is entitled to —-
    26  MR IRVING:  I do not want to keep the statements out, but I
    .           P-203

      1  want to make certain representations about the quality of
      2  their evidence, their criminal records and the rest of it.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, I think, is a matter for you to deal
      4  with in your evidence. It is not a ground for objecting
      5  to the statements going in under the Act.
      6  MR IRVING:  I mean I wanted to put it in by way of submission.
      7  That is what I suppose I was trying to say.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will not prevent you doing that, whatever
      9  the form is.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  That is what I was going to say. There is a
    11  provision that allows where a witness is not being called
    12  under the Civil Evidence Act for what one might call
    13  rebuttal material to be put in and, of course, and comment
    14  that can be made about the internal condition —-
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The reliability of the evidence.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Exactly.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Quite. Good. So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
    18  (The court adjourned until the following day)
    .           P-204