Day 27 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial
Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 9.5)
1 IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION
2 Royal Courts of Justice
3 Strand, London
4 Tuesday, 29th February 2000
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY
9 B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10 Claimant -and-
11 (1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12 (2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14 The Claimant appeared in person
15 MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16 Second Defendants
17 MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18 MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19 the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21 (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22 Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23 (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell & Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS – DAY TWENTY-SEVEN
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 MR RAMPTON: I think Mr Irving has something to say, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I understand that today I am going to be
5 cross-examining Professor Funke, which is after he has
6 been presented to the court. There are two things I want
7 to mention first. First of all, I understand from today’s
8 Israeli newspapers and yesterday’s Washington Post that
9 the Defence now have the Eichmann papers. In other words,
10 they are going to bring in the Battleship Eichmann in a
11 frantic attempt to rescue their position.
12 I would be very grateful if I had the chance to
13 read them as early as possible rather than just being
14 presented with them piecemeal.
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. We have not read them yet. If
16 they contain relevant material, those relevant parts will
17 be disclosed at once.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that enough?
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, do they not now become discoverable now
20 that they are in their custody?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, not unless they are relevant.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know quite what we are talking about
23 is it a diary?
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not know. I have not seen it. It has come
25 on e-mail. It is about 600 pages of memoirs. That is all
26 I know. If they contain relevant material, then the
1 relevant material, plus context of course, will be
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a slightly unconventional approach,
4 is it not? Normally, it would be a document which would
5 be discoverable if it contained any relevant material.
6 You would not normally redact the non-relevant material.
7 MR RAMPTON: You are allowed to redact that is the case of
8 Guardian v. GRE.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only for good reasons, in my recollection.
10 MR RAMPTON: No, if it is irrelevant. I do not really mind as
11 it is in the public domain anyway.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it?
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It will be from tomorrow morning. The
14 Israeli government are going to release it to the public
15 at large, so I do not really mind. But I do not want to
16 lumber the proceedings with a great fat document if it
17 does not contain anything relevant.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor do I. It just seems to me, in terms of
19 what Mr Irving should see, he probably ought to see for
20 himself and judge for himself.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is not a problem. It is just that we
22 have not looked at it ourselves yet. It is not even in
23 readable form at the moment.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may feature in your cross-examination of
25 Mr Irving, I suppose.
26 MR RAMPTON: It may well do. I will know by the end of the day
1 whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of
3 business today really, ought he not?
4 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically
7 discoverable now that it is within their custody,
8 possession and power?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.
10 MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document
11 rather than a redacted version.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come
13 through in e-mail and has been put into readable form.
14 Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is
15 something the matter with the electronics.
16 MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh.
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am
18 completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to
19 surrender to others.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am
21 told that it is electronically impossible to comply with
22 it, is that you should be provided with a copy.
23 MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the
25 Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean,
26 let us say, 5 p.m. today.
1 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point
2 concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made
3 for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is
4 going to be shown. It may well be that I would have
5 objections to make to the videos for the reasons that
6 I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos
7 that have been edited in some way or prepared for
8 broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles,
9 which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest
10 of it. I see the equipment is there. I certainly have a
11 day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today
12 and I think that I should be told in advance what the
13 videos are and be given a chance to make representations.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that.
15 MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to
16 lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it
17 is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just
18 like that, by asking him. Your Lordship will know that at
19 the back of his report there is an appendix containing a
20 list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to
21 go through the important characters in that list, to
22 expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to
23 ask him how far he is aware that those people have had
24 contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had
25 access to Mr Irving’s diary correspondence and so on, and
26 to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to
1 us, for example, and the extent of them. That I hope is a
2 short cut through what is a very voluminous and in some
3 senses rather intricate report. Then I propose to show
4 the videos which, as far as possible, we have stripped of
5 editorial content. Most of them simply show people
6 speaking, including, to a large extent, Mr Irving himself
7 on a number —-
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not a jury and I am quite capable,
9 I hope, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
10 MR RAMPTON: Precisely — on a limited number of occasions in
11 Germany in the 1990s. What Professor Funke will do is to
12 identify Mr Irving’s fellow travellers, if I can call them
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will he also identify in advance what film is
15 going to be shown so that, if Mr Irving has an objection,
16 he can make it.
17 MR RAMPTON: He or I or Miss Rogers will do that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the video going to take?
19 MR RAMPTON: They can be very short. One of them is really
20 quite long, but I do not believe it needs to have the
21 whole of it shown. Most of them are really quite short.
22 One is about 10 seconds.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The total?
24 MR RAMPTON: Total about an hour.
25 MR RAMPTON: The long one I spoke of is about 70 minutes, but
26 there is an awful lot of, if I may use the word, ranting,
1 not by Mr Irving alone, in the course of that video and
2 one does not want to see the whole of it, necessarily.
3 One merely needs to whiz forwards so that Professor Funke
4 can say who the people are. That is 70 minutes but one
5 does not need to watch the whole of it. The rest in total
6 are about 45 minutes. If I said an hour for the videos
7 and about three quarters of an hour in preparation, that
8 will then set the scene for cross-examination.
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, if it is purely, as I understand it, what
10 Muller would have called visual materials, then I have no
11 objection to them being shown. But if in any attention is
12 paid to the content of what is alleged to be said, or the
13 extracts taken, then of course I would want advance notice
14 of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave it like this. You are going to
16 get some idea from Mr Funke’s evidence what these clips
17 are going to be. If you want to raise an objection when
18 you know what you are going to be presented with, then do
19 so. Shall we leave it like that?
20 MR RAMPTON: I will tell Mr Irving now what the meetings are.
21 There is one on at Agonou in Azas on 12th November 1989
22 organised by Mr Christophersen. There is a meeting in
23 Munich under the legend or heading “Vaheit macht Frey” on
24 21st April 1990. There is a meeting at Passau under the
25 aegis of the DVU and Mr Gerhard Frey on 16th February
26 1991. There is what is called the Leuchter Congress,
1 which is the long tape, on 23rd March 1991, again in
2 Munich, and that is one in which a number of names which
3 will be familiar to your Lordship, if not now, certainly
4 by end of this exercise, feature. Then finally there is
5 what is, in some ways we would suppose, perhaps the most
6 striking, which is an outdoor rally in a place called
7 Halle in what used to be East Germany but by 9th November
8 1991 was in the reunited Germany.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
10 MR IRVING: I think I will only have problems with the Halle
11 one because that particular piece of film has been very
12 heavily chopped around, cutting out very important parts
13 of what I said. So, as I said before, if this is purely a
14 rogues gallery, I have no objection to the court being
15 shown it at this stage.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got a transcript of what you said at
18 MR IRVING: We have made a transcript of as much as is on the
19 film as far as we possibly can.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just what is on the film? That is your
22 MR RAMPTON: I have not got that.
23 MR IRVING: It has been on my website for the last year.
24 MR RAMPTON: That is a peculiar way of making disclosure. Oh,
25 it is not.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has probably been disclosed as well.
1 Anyway, that is the one you may be objecting to?
2 MR IRVING: Purely to the text of the film rather than the
3 rogues gallery pictures of these alleged sleezy friends of
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6 MR RAMPTON: Now the Professor needs to be sworn.
Part II: Rampton Questions Dr. Hajo Funke (9.6 to 85.21)
Section 9.6 to 48.6
7 < Professor Funke, affirmed.
8 < Examined by Mr Rampton QC
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Herr Funke, do sit down.
10 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, have you made a report for the
11 purposes of this case?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I did.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]: So far as it contains statements of fact, are you
14 satisfied that they are as true as they can be?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And, so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are
17 you satisfied that those opinions are fair?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: My Lord, Professor Funke’s English is not quite as good as
20 Dr Longerich’s was. The subject with which he is dealing
21 is in some senses quite subtle and in other senses quite
22 technical. I am going to invite him at any stage, if he
23 feels uncomfortable in English, to go into German. He
24 must go slowly because otherwise the interpreter will not
25 be able to keep up.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can manage in English, Professor, it
2 makes life easier.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I try my best.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a bit quicker but, if you feel
5 difficulties, then have resort to the interpreter.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you.
7 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, could you please be given your
8 report? Have you got your report there?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: At the back of your report there are two appendices.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could you go to the appendix two, please?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which you have entitled “Biographies”. Have you got the
15 appendix there?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We do not need the actual report, I hope, at all, at any
18 rate as far as I am concerned. You heard what I said to
19 his Lordship before you were sworn to give evidence, that
20 I am going to go through some of the names in this
21 appendix and ask you who they are and what they stand
22 for, what their ideologies and policies are. Do you
23 remember my saying that?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going also to ask you in respect of each person
26 whether you are able to give us in summary form an account
1 of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man
2 who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or
3 was Michael Kuhnen?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists
5 in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of ’91, when
6 he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of
7 ’33 to ’45.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What we now call the Nazi party?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. So he did a lot together with others
10 internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization
11 of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups
12 within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the
13 stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated
14 perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the
15 neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add
16 that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to
17 overflow the liberal democracy. He agitated very much
18 against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan
19 race based state.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Give me again the year that he died?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: April 91.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]: April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in
23 Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr
24 Kuhnen’s direct heirs or successors?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There are some, especially I have to say there is a person
26 called Christian Worch and there is another person called
1 Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close
2 links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United
3 States. These are the three most important — there are
4 others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg,
5 Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each
9 stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had
10 any contact with these names.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is stage 2.
12 MR RAMPTON: Be patient, please.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to
15 MR RAMPTON: Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is
16 in this grouping or not?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of
18 these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called
19 ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth,
20 and then a group that is of importance for the period in
21 the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a
22 group of the like-minded of the new front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who do we find in that — have we got an abbreviation for
24 that because I cannot say it each time?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]: All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social
2 scientists reports “the Kuhnen crew”.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Nowadays?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes– no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we
6 find in the —-
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it
8 was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also
9 Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they
11 inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi
12 ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that
13 was propounded by Kuhnen before he died?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as
15 they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know,
16 changes but of lower degree. If I may add, nowadays means
17 this year and some of them are still active like the
18 Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing
19 extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of
20 the 90s to a more radical strategy.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and
22 around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen’s
23 death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial
24 become illegal?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were in the middle of the ’80s several laws set
26 through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement
1 of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed
2 people. So in the middle of the ’80s, there was a
3 strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is
4 forbidden and again in ’94, and so there was again renewal
5 of this, of this law.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned —
7 I am going to take them in turn — you have had access,
8 have you not, to Mr Irving’s correspondence, his diary and
9 material of that kind, have you not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I did.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]: First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did —-
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For
13 the transcribers’ benefit, shall we just spell the names
14 that we are really concerned with?
15 MR RAMPTON: K-U-H-N-E-N.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
17 MR RAMPTON: “Michael”. Can you tell us whether or not
18 Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so,
19 to what extent?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he
21 saw him once, at least — I have to be very precise —
22 they were at the same meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In 1990 and so far I recall in ’90 — no, in ’90,
25 especially in ’90, and in late ’89. They were at the same
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many meetings?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April
3 of ’90 and — no, this is it, yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
5 MR IRVING: Could the witness be specific about what he means
6 by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that
7 Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to
9 MR RAMPTON: That is a good question.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a fair question, yes.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Exactly. He was in the audience and —-
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving
13 was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is quite important which actually?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the,
17 you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st
18 April ’90.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, then what about Ewald Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is very different. Mr Irving had close contacts —-
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald
22 is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry.
23 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that
24 I have given to the transcriber.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize that.
26 MR IRVING: She will be able to find them eventually, but they
1 are in the sequence of my questions rather than your
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful, Mr Irving.
4 MR RAMPTON: Tell us now about the relationship, if there is
5 one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far
7 I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited
8 source, but also by the disclosures and by other social
9 scientists, researchers. Althans was very active in that
10 period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the
11 Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was
12 a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst
13 Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene.
14 MR RAMPTON: If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it
15 means that something you have said has prompted another
16 question? We will come back to Althans in a moment.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I will look at you.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Otto Ernst Remer, right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who was he? Is he still alive?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, he died in the middle, in the later ’90s.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell us first who he was.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down
1 of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the
2 Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the
3 Berlin battalions to crush the coup d’etat attempt down
4 and since then, after ’45, he was perceived.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he
6 crushed the 20th July plot?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it
8 up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below
9 the General level.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the
11 same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve
12 after he had crushed the coup?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue
15 with his place, please in this scenario which you are
16 painting for us.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish
18 this —-
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, then we will go back to Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — for that period of time. He was then very active in
21 one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after ’45. So he was
22 with founder of the Sozialistische
23 Reichspartei — cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist
24 Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people
25 who tried to renew National Socialism. If you may imagine
26 that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of
1 the population in Germany, and because of that but also
2 by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was
3 forbidden in ’52.
4 So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the
5 Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state
6 side against court —-
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Action?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — procedure against Remer statements in the early ’50s.
9 So there was really something to him. Then he stayed
10 course, if I may say so, throughout the ’50, ’60s, ’70s
11 and got some resonance again in the ’80s and especially in
12 the ’90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course
13 of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little
14 magazine, kind of magazine.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]: You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]: How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As a young boy, Althans is in the ’30s still, of 14 or 16,
20 he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer’s
21 convictions, and he referred himself in several
22 statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer
23 like convictions and he said that they came from him to a
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some
26 of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the
1 Worchs and Kussel?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They were at the period that is of interest, in the period
3 that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they
4 had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare
5 revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to
6 widen their influence to the new free zone for influence,
7 that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a
8 very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.
9 Immediately after that —-
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful
11 field for the activities of these people.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all
13 sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian
14 regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very
15 sure. So a lot of various youngster groups spread and
16 came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of
17 the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former
18 authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing
19 skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out
20 of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since
21 86 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very
22 brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they
23 were there without a control in 89 and early 90. This was
24 the situation in which the far right groups, and
25 especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK
26 this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to
1 steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement
2 of that kind.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion
4 as you have described with lots of these young skinheads
5 took place at Halle in November 91, did it not?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is right, but also before and after.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in
8 this court!
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to
10 Berlin in East Germany former GDR.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]: In the former GDR?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the
14 extent of Mr Irving’s connections with the likes of Otto
15 Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer:
16 Is there a connection alleged.
17 MR RAMPTON: I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do
18 not want to take too long. At the same time I do not want
19 to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not
20 Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so. During the meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I pass from Althans to somebody called — I will take them
26 out of order because I want to stick with what you have
1 just told us, but I am coming back to some other names
2 afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian?
3 Where does he stand in this? What is his position?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant
5 successors of the Kuhnen crew, the
6 Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was
7 the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a
8 third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch,
9 I come to him in a minute.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: All right.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this
12 kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was
13 eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called
14 Wehrsportgruppe — can you translate that?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Military exercise groups, military style
16 support groups.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So he was very active in that, it was his part.
18 MR RAMPTON: Dressing up in battle dress with guns?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Marching around in the woods?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And using old weapons they found from the Second World War
22 or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using
23 weapons of especially the army of Austria.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you take that kind of activity seriously?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89
26 there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over
1 as social scientists, but since they got some influence
2 and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you
3 may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence
4 against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three
5 years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes I understand that.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come
9 down? I should know.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we
11 are coming to.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The
13 9th November is an anniversary of something else, is it
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are a bit elliptical at this stage.
20 MR RAMPTON: The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Hitler’s birthday, if I may add, is 20th April.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell us about the 9th November.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was a coup d’etat of Hitler and his comrades at the
25 9th November 1923, the so-called —-
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Putsch?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here.
2 MR RAMPTON: Tell me about that.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the
4 so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken
5 glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the
6 way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use
7 this as a kind of national anniversary date.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. As you said, it is a bit loaded. Do you know whether
9 Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if
11 I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same
12 meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far
13 as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But
14 the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like.
15 So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly
17 often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his
18 wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David
21 Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they
22 were with Ewald Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Characterize, if you will.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the
25 disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of
26 David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction
1 between others and David Irving and the Worches.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Others such as whom?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person
4 in this network.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as
7 I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the
8 period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore,
9 so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is he still active?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the
13 29th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin,
14 against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust,
15 a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very —-
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this? Are you saying that
17 Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, very much so. Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and
20 Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the
21 most intense interactions at that time.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says
23 I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that was Karl Philipp
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, that was Christian Worch.
1 MR IRVING: If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it
2 would be useful just to telephone —-
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to, up to a point.
4 MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am anxious to get the broad picture at the
6 moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions
7 or contacts?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
9 sides, to be invited. So, for example, at the 3rd March
10 of ’90 David Irving was invited to the group. He
11 especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called
12 nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he
13 was invited to give one of David Irving’s speeches there,
14 and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of
15 this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in
16 Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans
17 around the new built other group like the Deutsche
18 Alternative. So just to say the minimum that groups of
19 the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new
20 organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear
21 David Irving at the 3rd March of ’90. This kind of
22 interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The
23 same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the
24 event of the 9th November ’91, in Halle. This Halle event
25 was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing
26 of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to
1 combine their groupings and you will see it on the video.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we just pause there?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton]: These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an
5 illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we
6 take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could
7 the witness please be given that? Could you turn please,
8 Professor, to the second page in the summary which you
9 will find at the beginning of that tab? It has a (ii) at
10 the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]: The second page of the summary at the beginning.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me
17 to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue
18 down to the end of 9th November ’91 on the following page.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. (Pause for reading).
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on
21 corresponding with each other through until June 1993.
22 Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January
23 1992? It is the middle of page (iii).
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your
26 evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,
1 using the informal address “du”. What does that signify
2 in German if one addresses people in that form?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It signifies a close relation, that they know each other
4 by private level.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made,
6 that these Worch people were just informal slight
7 acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. They are of central importance. You let me read the
10 page before, and it is stated that they met not only at
11 the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch
12 together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized
13 something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April,
14 the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint
15 organization. It is very interesting that you have
16 joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of
17 clear cut neo-Nazis. Then they met again the next morning
18 with Wilhelm Staglich, another —-
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a
20 moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been
21 present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is several times the case. For example, at the second
25 so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March ’91 and
26 again at the 9th November ’91, and so far, yes, these are
2 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
4 meeting. This is very important for this scene. The
5 Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
6 death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving
7 did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not
8 want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
9 Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
10 person. This is Christian Worch.
11 MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by
12 taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
14 MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it
15 quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add — no,
18 I should not. I see. Go on.
19 MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
21 Rudolf Hess.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April
23 1990 please?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving’s diary records that he had breakfast on the
26 morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with
1 Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in
4 these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
5 man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
7 Holocaust denial?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is often the case, and with him it is.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton]: With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names
10 now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that
11 you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
13 Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is
14 doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel,
15 so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the
16 German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Hoax of the 20th century”?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say
19 that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
20 November 89.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are going to have a look at that.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
23 differentiated in trying to make this cause.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
25 Staglich or Walendy?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their
1 revisionists meetings.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
4 I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
5 people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
6 networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to
7 look it up.
8 MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and
9 perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has
10 had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.
11 We get that from his own diary, do we not?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
13 MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions
14 it, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was there around, you know. He was there often
16 around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know,
17 on the day before he was there too, and you too.
18 MR IRVING: In the audience.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know
20 Mr Staglich, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe I should spell it for the court?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: No?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes
25 the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Go ahead.
2 MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
4 Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
5 tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause
6 along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive
7 NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall,
8 in ’91. The success of these events were modest.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Did you say events or event?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and
12 your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the
13 effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
15 MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies
16 individually of each of these individuals. You said there
17 is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the
18 heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism
19 xenophobia. Yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, very much so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
23 differentiations because they have to stick to their card
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these
26 neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a
1 policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see
4 any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
5 that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation,
6 ideology, world view. No, not any person of this
7 I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got
8 the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a
9 kind of same world view.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp
11 or not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have.
13 MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you
14 know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist
16 camp, and also politically very active.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think we are going to see him in one or other of these
18 tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East
21 Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this
22 cause after ’89. He changed his views and parties, but he
23 was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz
25 Galinski died?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
5 whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this
6 Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to
9 which —-
10 MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.
11 I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not
13 one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
14 MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is
15 partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in
16 the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
18 importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if
20 may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving
22 MR IRVING: Thank you.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe
24 very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian
25 Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
26 MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will get your chance, Mr Irving. We must
2 not make this too conversational.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You heard him. He spoke before you spoke.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, can we keep some sort of form to
5 this? We have a system here. It is Mr Rampton
6 questioning at the moment, so do not start conversations
7 with Mr Irving.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. Maybe I should add something to Thomas
9 Dienel? Excuse me. I rely on your questions.
10 MR IRVING: I am sorry, I interrupted. Perhaps we ought to
11 carry on.
12 MR RAMPTON: We can read on page 142 of the appendix what sort
13 of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account. Is he one of
14 those that we shall see on the film of the rally at Halle?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I alluded to that just before. He was the one of the
16 organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian
17 Worch. It was a joint action and at that time, to my best
18 knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National
19 Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint effort,
20 the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD.
21 But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new clear
22 cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP. It is maybe not of such an
23 interest, but the point is that he was one of them at that
24 period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites.
25 He, after the death of the famous Jewish representative
26 Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who in
1 a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I may
2 say so. I knew him very well. An effort at that city
3 where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an action
4 at the 20th July ’92, following the death of this leader,
5 Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs’ heads
6 were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with
7 labels that read “Every pig dies, you too Heinz”. That
8 means Heinz Galinski. In ’92, Dienel was found saying
9 unfortunately the younger generation has not yet killed
10 any Jews.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What age of man is this Thomas Dienel?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is in the 40s, I think.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still, if I may say so, unsure on what
14 basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a
15 connection between —-
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say connection.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with the
18 Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak at
19 the Halle rally?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Then I said you can call it connection. It is a
21 connection for that given invitation and action.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting Irving
23 to speak? Where do you get that from?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. It is more precise. The demonstration in Halle, the
25 Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from two
26 persons, or two groups represented by these two persons.
1 This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is very
2 public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch. The
3 diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of David
4 Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by Ursula
5 Worch —-
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is what I was getting at.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — To come to this rally. So it was a kind of conflation
8 of invitations, and by this he was in the scene. You know
9 that David Irving is a very good understander of German
10 language. So he knew him by hearing him, by participating
11 at that demonstration and at a very prominent level. That
12 is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do anything
13 more in the report.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that
17 MR RAMPTON: We go now to man called Gunter Deckert. Before
18 I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any
19 connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By his website.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: How do you mean? That, to me, is a slightly Delphic
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They have a long interaction by communicating and
24 referring to each other. He, Deckert, invited David
25 Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time, the
26 early ’90s, I think, in ’90. So there was a clear cut
1 each other knowledge of what they have stood for and that
2 they stand for.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on
4 the website?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to
6 read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that
7 I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court
8 things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim.
9 Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in
10 early, in the early ’90s, I think in ’91. So David Irving
11 is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this
13 MR IRVING: It is actually an appeal for funds for the family
14 of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave
17 it to you to cross-examine later. It seems that Deckert
18 is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with.
19 MR IRVING: No problem with that one at all.
20 MR RAMPTON: Well, then is this no problem about the contact?
21 Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his
22 views, please?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore
24 revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in ’91 to ’95, and
25 he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period
26 of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in
1 Germany because of the scenery, especially in East
2 Germany, he radicalized the NPD. This is, if I may say
3 so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very
4 interesting, you know, change at that period of time,
5 because that means in the following years that the
6 interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew. And
7 finally after all this neo-Nazi — no, after a bunch of
8 these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German
9 authorities in ’92 and ’93 and ’94 and ’95, the NPD was
10 the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing
11 extremist party who took over, and organized this little
12 tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp.
13 So we have the interesting thing, just to finish
14 it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we
15 had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp
16 on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating
17 in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof
18 Gate against the attempt of a memorial.
19 MR IRVING: What year was that? 29th January what year?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation
21 took place.
22 MR RAMPTON: Good. I have only three others on my list at the
23 moment. We may have to ask further questions when we look
24 at the tapes, Professor. A man called Thies
25 Christophersen, tell us about him. Tell us, first,
26 whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Very much so because Thies Christophersen is one of the
2 networkers who is on the very radical side of the clear
3 cut Holocaust denier. He has some resonance in these
4 groups by having been in Auschwitz as a kind of lower
5 officer in the kind of garden area near to the camps. So
6 he pretend to know all about Auschwitz, and he wrote one
7 of these famous books “Die Auschwitz-Luge”, “The Auschwitz
8 Lie”. So he organized that he was very sharp in
9 presenting his case. So he was caught, he was attacked by
10 the judicial authorities, so he had to leave Germany.
11 He resided in — he lived in Kolant in Denmark
12 for a period of time and, to make it very clear, he is one
13 of those who combined this radical revisionists with the
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, so, in other words, he makes a bridge or link?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, he is one of the bridges the linkers.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: The neo-Nazis on the one side?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the Holocaust deniers on the other?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. So he was also responsible for this Hagenau meeting
21 to a degree and the revisionists’ meetings at that time.
22 He died then in the ’90s.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, when we look at the Hagenau meeting which is the
24 first one we will look at, it is quite short, that was
25 organized by Christophersen, is that right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I recall, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And I think we are going to see, but you will tell us
2 whether we are right, Arthur Butts?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We do not see him, but it is said that, according to the
4 sources, that he is there.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: OK, yes. Christian Worch whom you can identify?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Karl Philipp you think?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think. The sources says it, but we cannot see him in
9 that meeting. I think we will see him in another meeting.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. Wilhelm Staglich?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall, he could — you could see him.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]: If Worch and Staglich are both there, then, on the one
13 hand, you have a neo-Nazi Worch and, on the other hand,
14 you have a denier in Staglich?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a
16 kind interaction to say the minimum between this kind of
17 revisionists and this kind of neoNazis, that has, of
18 course, something to do with the ideas behind. So there
19 was a conflation. And to say in one sentence more about
20 that, especially in Germany and Austria, if in any sense
21 neo-Nazis can get some success, political success, they
22 have to do as the first thing to by any means try to
23 rehabilitate National Socialism as far as it is possible.
24 This is the crucial point. By denying, by relativizing,
25 by blaming the Jews as those who made it up or who did it
26 or who let it do, so by all various kinds of rhetorics,
1 agitations, to downplay this Nazi period, to restore, you
2 know, the kind of proud of the extreme Aryan racist
3 anti-Semitic nation. This is the bottom line of it. So
4 they conflate one and again, once and again.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do I understand what you have just said to involve, I hope
6 you do not mind a little piece of colloquial English, that
7 you are telling us that your familiarity with neo-Nazi and
8 denialist publications, utterances, speeches, and so on
9 and so forth, one of their themes is that the Jews had it
10 coming to them and brought it on themselves?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this is one of the most, if I may say personally,
12 most striking things, that it is said that in the course
13 of centuries or, to quote David Irving, of 3,000 years in
14 one of his quotations, the Jews are responsible because
15 they are disliked. Whether — and the direction is that
16 the Jews are the reasons for being disliked because of
17 their various behaviour, alleged behaviours, and so they
18 are responsible, they are so to speak —-
19 THE INTERPRETER: They carry part of the guilt.
20 MR RAMPTON: Sorry?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They carry part of the guilt or the whole guilt that they
22 were murdered, and in a quite illogical, irrational way,
23 this is then changed by saying, “OK, but the Holocaust did
24 not happen, at least not to the degree” so you have a
25 double —-
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]: One might —-
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — double standard —-
2 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — double meaning, a kind of controversial in itself, but
4 this can only be solved by the distance and even hatred
5 against the Jews in that camp.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can I stick with what I was on? We have seen the passage
7 and other passages from Mr Irving’s utterances that you
8 speak of, my question is this. Is that thought, really it
9 is all the Jews’ own fault, if it did happen, which it did
10 not, they deserved it or they brought it on themselves”,
11 is that a common theme amongst the denialist and neo-Nazi
12 publications with which you are familiar in Germany?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It comes always to the fore. If you see Hagenau, you see
14 all of a sudden Mr Zundel rousing his voice and saying,
15 “This Juden pack”.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does that mean?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
18 THE INTERPRETER: “Pack of Jews”.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: A pack.
20 MR RAMPTON: A pack of Jews?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a very negative connotation.
22 MR RAMPTON: What, as though the were dogs or something?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a kind of bunch of people who are doing this dirty,
24 ugly thing. It is a kind of slogan we know in Germany,
25 “Juden pack”, these people who are doing this bad things.
26 THE INTERPRETER: “Pack” meaning low people with low
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So just a representation of aggression, of very aggression
3 and humiliating the Jews.
4 MR RAMPTON: This is the famous Ernst Zundel from Canada, is
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
7 MR RAMPTON: Goodness me!
8 MR IRVING: There is no suggestion that I had used words like
10 MR RAMPTON: There is a suggestion that Mr Irving was at this
11 meeting and made a speech, is there not, to this audience?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]: People like Mr Zundel?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At Hagenau, yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe he did not hear him, but he was there.
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes. Hagenau is in Alsace, is it not? It is in
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, in Alsace.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then two others, finally, who are not on my list — there
20 may be others when we look at the tape — Professor, one
21 is a Spanish man, I think, called Pedro Verala, who is he?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is again one of the — you know, he is the successor of
23 a bunch of neo-Nazis who fled to Spain because, as you may
24 know, the Franco Spain was a kind of resort area for
25 National Socialists.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. He is what? He is a neo-Nazi or revisionist? What
1 is he?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Both.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Both. Finally, then, a somewhat curious figure amongst
4 all these Aryans, somebody Ahmed Rami. Who is he?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is a wide anti-Semite, to say the minimum.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where does he come from?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Stockholm, but original descent from Morocco. He is
8 talking in the second Leuchter Congress, you will see it
9 if you decide to.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: He speaks in French?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He speaks in French. He is always talking about the
12 Zionist Mafia who lead the world and this kind of, 20
13 minutes in this video, so you will see how long you will
14 view it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you propose any further connection between Mr Irving
16 and — I have lost his name?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Spaniard.
18 MR RAMPTON: Verala and Rami, other than that they appeared at
19 this meeting in Munich together on 21st?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I know, but I have to check again in various
21 revisionists meetings — no, excuse me, no. David Irving
22 was invited by this camp in Spain and spoke.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh, really? Do you know when?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: When?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In that same, I have lost it, I have to check it, but in
1 the late 80s, early 90s. I read the diaries from 1989 to
2 ’93 and there he was in Spain. But it must have been
3 quite successful, but I have to recall when it was.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Invited by?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Give me a minute, so I will say to you in a minute.
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Invited by Verala, is that what you are saying?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, so they know each other. You know, it is a little
8 tiny group who interacted between each other on various
9 levels and various levels of intensity, so sometimes I get
10 mixed up but not on the basic things.
11 MR RAMPTON: Looking at the whole spread of material,
12 Professor, looking at the whole spread of material which
13 you have been through in detail, so far as Mr Irving’s
14 connections with these various people and groups are
15 concerned, how deep would you say that his involvement in
16 these affairs is?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think very — he was involved very much in this whole
18 affairs. Not to get mixed up, I did a show picture to see
19 this —-
20 THE INTERPRETER: A graph.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — a graph to represent this interactions, and you have,
22 you know, the whole bench of revisionists from Tony
23 Hancock, Peter Verala, Staglich, Valendi, Otto Ernst
24 Remer, Ahmed Rami, Zundel, Zundel as one of the main
25 persons, together with Christophersen and Mark Rebo of IHR
26 in California, on the one hand, then you have an
1 interconnecting person, Karl Philipp, then you have, on
2 the other hand, the Althans group and the person himself
3 especially, and then you have some Austrians, by the way,
4 very famous right-wing extremists, like Rephandel in
5 Skrinski, who are known to David Irving, then you have the
6 DVU connection we did not talk about in the ’80s.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Gerhard Frey?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Gerhard Frey, this not legalized extremist party, then you
9 have the interaction we talked about, the Gunter Deckert
10 of NPD then in the ’90s radicalized NPD, and you have the
11 neo-Nazis we spoke about at the beginning. So you have a
12 whole, you know, if you want to centre Irving, you can do
13 so. You know, they are the revisionists, if I may say so,
14 they are the neoNazis, they are the Austrians, not so
15 intense, intense, the DVU Frey, the Deckert NPD, the
16 Althans, the Philipp person as person transmitters and,
17 you know, organizers. Then there is another bunch of
18 people out of the late ’70s and early ’80s of the then
19 active network of right-wing extremists — just I could
20 name some of them.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We will stay with what we have at the moment because it is
22 already rather indigestible. Could we have a look at that
23 beautiful document? When did you make it?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the last days.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I have not seen it before.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because to get, you know —-
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could I have a look at it because if it looks impressive,
2 we had better have it copied. Mr Irving will see it too
3 in a moment. It is slightly untidy, Professor.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I know. My writing is limited to the degree of being
5 very clear, clean.
6 MR IRVING: Perhaps you could wait until we see how many names
7 we can knock off this before he makes the —-
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not particularly enthusiastic about
10 MR RAMPTON: Right. Give the drawing back to the Professor
11 then. I can tell your Lordship this, that there are diary
12 entries in Mr Irving’s diary for November 1989 which
13 describe a speaking tour of Spain starting on — it is a
14 very short one, two days, three days.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I recall.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Four days. That is not short. I could not speak for four
17 days. Four days starting on November 17th 1989 seems to
18 have been organized by Verala?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is what I meant.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is what you meant, yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]: There is also a Rami section, my Lord, in the RWE files in
23 the second one at tab 18. Thank you very much.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got a tab 18. I did look for Rami
25 and I —-
26 MR RAMPTON: He is right at the back.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not in the index, but at the back. You
2 are quite right.
3 MR RAMPTON: He is not in the index, but he is at the back.
4 There is not an awful lot on him. I think seven
5 entries —-
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
Section 48.7 to 85.1
7 MR RAMPTON: — involving Mr Irving. Thank you, Professor,
8 for the moment. We will need your help because I am now
9 going to show these tapes. Miss Rogers, my Lord, before
10 we start looking at the films, has prepared a
11 chronological, not exhaustive, list of Mr Irving’s
12 speeches starting in January 1983 and ending in November
13 1988 upon which your Lordship will find or in which your
14 Lordship will find the three or four that we are going to
15 look at now.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Where shall we put
18 MR RAMPTON: In front of RWE1, I should have thought. One for
19 the witness, I think. Who is going to control this —-
20 MR IRVING: This is not an exhaustive list of speeches, is it?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, I said it was not.
22 MR IRVING: It is a very selective list. I mean, in some years
23 I spoke 190 times in one year.
24 MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. When Mr Irving is speaking to the
25 East Grinstead RSPCA I have not put in a —-
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is selective.
1 MR RAMPTON: It is selective indeed. I would like to show the
2 tapes. Where are the tapes, is the first question?
3 I think, my Lord, the safest way of dealing with this, if
4 I may suggest it, is if Miss Rogers is allowed to stand up
5 there, do you mind doing that, and with help stop it at
6 the right places.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, when it comes to the speech upon Halle,
8 I would to like to know whether it is the raw, uncut
9 footage they are going to show.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we pause before Halle? Is Halle the
11 last one? I have the impression it was.
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes, Halle is the last one. I cannot answer
13 Mr Irving’s question on that, I am afraid, I just do not
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but he can make his objection to it then.
16 Is there a transcript of Halle?
17 MR RAMPTON: There is not a transcript of any of them.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But it is a disclosure of — he is on the website.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but I would like to see the transcript
20 all the same. I suspect in the end, Mr Irving, I am
21 probably going to have to see it and then form a view
22 about your objections, if there is no transcript.
23 MR IRVING: Precisely. Your Lordship will be familiar from the
24 inter partes correspondence that there was a major dispute
25 about the Halle tape.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am not conscious of that at all.
1 MR IRVING: It was concealed from me in discovery and I had to
2 conduct several interlocutory actions under the rules of
3 discovery to force the — it was accidently discovered to
4 me, the raw tapes.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, you got it in the end.
6 MR IRVING: And we had a lot of trouble over it.
7 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I sit while this is going on.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, please.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is in Hagenau, if I may say.
10 MR RAMPTON: It seems to be a still.
11 (The video tape was played)
12 MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there, please? Who is that speaking
13 in the middle?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This person to the left — maybe David Irving can help us.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not sure that is quite the way to
16 conduct this.
17 MR IRVING: I would be happy to assist if I recognize him.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will not ask you to, let us just
19 see what the witness can say.
20 MR IRVING: It is not Valendi, as far as I know.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not sure. That is why — but I heard that he
22 organized the debate.
23 MR RAMPTON: Who is the one in the middle with the stripy tie?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Now, in the back not seeing is Ernst Zundel, to the right
25 it is Faurisson.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it is Faurisson — can we just go back a couple of
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Ernst Zundel in the back.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, I see. That is Faurisson on the right with the
4 stripe with the white shirt, is it?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: On the right side.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you.
7 (The video continued to be played)
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “I would have given a gift to him when I realized that he
9 was here”. That is the gist. “So this devil lie that
10 this Juden pack that the Jews gave to us Germans”. That
11 is a reference to the so-called Holocaust lie. This was a
12 last sentence.
13 MR IRVING: I was not aware we were going to be shown edited
14 gobbets like this. We have no idea what that little piece
15 or snatch of conversation was, whether he was quoting from
16 a book or quoting from something that was said or what.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think he is was quoting from a
18 book. I think, Mr Irving, I understand your concern
19 but —-
20 MR IRVING: If we are just looking at a rogues gallery, that is
21 perfectly proper use of this footage.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in the end what is going to have to
23 happen is that I see all this material because it is
24 impossible for me to form a view because I do not know
25 what is coming next. We have not seen you at all but I
26 know you were there, so I expect we are going to see you.
1 MR IRVING: Well, we do not know if I am actually there at the
2 time these people were there or whether they are saying
3 that or not.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait and see when you feature.
5 MR IRVING: It has been heavily edited there, of course.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There to the back, if I may say so, this is the person in
7 the middle now, Christian Worch.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The young one?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The young one, right, in the middle, right in the middle.
10 This was just a second back, if I may ask you — now go
11 further — this person, so far I can identify him, of
12 course it is with limits, as you can imagine, on the right
13 side, seems to be Staglich.
14 MR RAMPTON: With his head by the window?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Stop there, please. What is Mr Irving talking about in
17 that extract?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know the reference is he is referring to the alleged
19 excesses of eyewitnesses with respect to the Holocaust
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pause please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And then —-
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, pause. When you said “excesses”, do you mean that
24 there are more survivors than there should be?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think exaggerations I think is the
1 MR RAMPTON: Exaggerations, that is why I interrupted you.
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, and with this he very cynically, I would say, says
3 OK, “There was one, there was just one”, that is the gist
4 of it, so far as I read it. Maybe there can be more
5 correct translations of these wordings. “There is one man
6 gas chamber there, you know, a kind of Sedan chair and
7 soldiers carried that around the landscape and then, like
8 a telephone cell, you have a ring and the soldier says,
9 ‘OK, it is for you, Jew'”. So this is the gist of it so
10 far I read it but —-
11 MR IRVING: Excuse me.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — of course Mr Irving said it so he may —-
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — translate it more precisely.
15 MR IRVING: The word was not “excuse you”, “it is for you,
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we are going to get into a frightful
18 tangle if we are going to go through the films having
19 simultaneous translations.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, no, not simultaneous translations, but it
21 would be a false exercise on my part if Mr Irving were
22 talking about the wild flowers in Alsace at that point.
23 One has to know what the gist of these meetings were
24 about —-
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I quite agree. No, I am just thinking it is
26 better —-
1 MR RAMPTON: — for them to have any point at all.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Don’t let us all talk at once it would be
3 better if we had a translation.
4 MR RAMPTON: It would be much better if we had a translation.
5 Before we close the case we will get translations and
6 transcripts, I expect. I will do my very best, but at the
7 moment, I am sorry, we do not have them.
8 THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate phrase by phrase,
9 this passage.
10 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I cannot hear.
11 THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate this passage phrase
12 by phrase.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will take a very long time.
14 MR RAMPTON: Don’t let us do that now.
15 MR IRVING: The other point I would ask in cross-examination of
16 this particular passage is that we have seen me speaking,
17 we have heard me speaking and now we see instantly picture
18 cross-cuts to a laughing audience, and we have no way of
19 knowing, for they have only got one camera there, and it
20 is done by clever editing. We do not know what they are
21 laughing at.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand that point. Whether it is a
23 good one or not, I am not so sure, but I understand the
24 point you are making.
25 MR IRVING: It is the editing point again, my Lord. Your
26 Lordship would not allow the introduction of an edited
1 document in which bits have been put in and bits have been
2 taken out. This is a document.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I entirely understand the point. Mr Rampton,
4 can you tell me this, and I should have asked before you
5 started playing it, who actually made this film? —-
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That was done by those who organized the conference.
7 MR RAMPTON: I see.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was then given to Michael Schmidt. Michael Schmidt was
9 the person who was in this revisionist and the other scene
10 for quite a period of time, and then had four days of
11 videos. He was given this video by one of the main
12 organizers, so far as I recall, and by Ernst Zundel
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, let us carry on.
15 MR RAMPTON: I just want to chase that up. Did Schmidt then
16 make a documentary film using this material?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, he did so, but the basic clips, of whatever he had of
18 ours, of course, documented by the documenter of this
19 conference, so we have again a problem of documents.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: So far as we can tell, that is original film of the
21 meeting at which we saw Mr Irving.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Organized by themselves.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who did the editing, that is the point?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course, Michael Schmidt did the editing. He shortened
25 it and, of course, they had a longer version given by the
26 organizers of this conference, that is to say, by Zundel
1 or Christopherson, so far as s I recall, by Zundel.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say Schmidt is a Revisionist himself?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. Michael Schmidt did ask to film the scene, and that
4 caused, later on, a lot of problems for Schmidt and the
5 scene. They got in an argument, but he managed to make a
6 long film.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But is Schmidt a right-wing extremist?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, he is not.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far, he presents himself in the public and buys
12 MR IRVING: He has written a book, has he not?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
14 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think the question that you are really
15 asking is who has edited this film that is in the machine.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I was not asking that.
17 MR IRVING: It has been re-edited by the Defence solicitors, of
19 MR RAMPTON: No.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, can you just remain silent for a
21 moment. Has it been re-edited by your team?
22 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but it has been re-edited in such a way —
23 yes, is the answer, I think. Can I just find out what
24 actually did happen, because I was not there. (Pause for
25 consultation). Yes, now I do have the full story. That is
26 taken from Schmidt’s film, my Lord, which was broadcast on
1 Dispatches in this country. The commentary is in English
2 with a German accent, as one can hear. What Miss Rogers
3 and the solicitors did was to take out as much editorial
4 content as they possibly could, including emotive stuff
5 like music, if it has not an original place in the
6 programme, and as much commentary as possible.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, If that were true, of course, there would
8 be English subtitles as well, but there are not any. How
9 would the English Dispatches audience have understood what
10 David Irving was saying in German.
11 MR RAMPTON: Because the commentary is in English in a German
13 MR IRVING: We have listened to it ourselves. It is me
14 speaking in German, it is Zundel speaking in German and
15 there are no subtitles at all.
16 MR RAMPTON: That is not commentary; that is original speech
17 about putting Jews into telephone boxes so as to kill
19 MR IRVING: It has been twice edited and is a totally
20 unsatisfactory document.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems really to have been edited three
22 times, probably originally by the people who organized
23 Hagenau, then by Schmidt and then by your team.
24 MR RAMPTON: It matters not the slightest. If Mr Irving
25 disputes that that is him speaking those words in that
26 company with those other people there, by all means let
1 him do so but, once he accepts that that is an authentic
2 record, not a complete record but an authentic record of
3 what happened, then it becomes admissible evidence. What
4 weight is attached to it is another question.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is right as far as the identity of
6 other people are concerned. I am not happy with using
7 what they said in the absence of a —-
8 MR IRVING: Complete transcription.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: — of at least a translation. So shall we
10 carry on for the moment? We can come back to these films
11 when there is a translation available, but shall we carry
12 on for the moment just using them to illustrate who was
13 present at these meetings who Professor Funke is able to
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, the volume control will solve the
16 problem. If the sound was turned down —-
17 MR RAMPTON: No. When Mr Irving is speaking, I want his words
19 MR IRVING: These are the redacted words as selected by the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am going to say is that we will
22 certainly use these films to see who was at the various
23 meetings. If reliance is placed on what Mr Irving said at
24 the meetings, then there must be a translation made rather
25 than have it translated in the way that it is at the
1 MR RAMPTON: There will be.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So, shall we proceed on that basis?
3 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
4 (The video taped continued).
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who is the man in the middle clapping?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is again Ernst Zundel to the right of the middle and
7 to the left is Staglich.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. Sitting next to each other?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is that one I think.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Hagenau.
12 MR RAMPTON: Now comes Munich, I think, in April 1990, does it
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 20th – 22nd April, is that right?
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The 21st.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Again, this is taken from the Dispatches programme.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Your Lordship, the 21st.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is altogether a bigger event.
20 (The video tape continued).
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pause there, please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the middle to the left, this is Raymund Bachman.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who is he?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is an Austrian right-wing extremist who is perceived as
25 a very good speaker. Then to the right of the middle,
26 this is the Althans.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: In the middle?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the middle to the right, the right to Mr Bachman, the
3 next is Ewald Althans and the third person is also active
4 in this scene, but I cannot recall the name. I can check
5 it if I have a bit of time.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does the rest of the banner above the hand say?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “Wahrheit macht frei” David Irving and the like, I do not
9 MR IRVING: “Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands”.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands”, thank you,
11 Mr Irving.
12 MR RAMPTON: We know, but what is the message of “Wahrheit
13 macht frei” in this context?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It means basically that truth produces freedom and relief,
15 and that truth is related to a rechange of the Holocaust
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does is have any resonance with some language used during
18 the Nazi period?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we all know.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It has resonance to “Arbeit macht frei”.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which we find where?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In the concentration camps but, of course, I do not know
23 if this is directly related to it but it has
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: You can leave that guesswork to us, thank you, Professor.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 (The video tape continued).
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Michael Kuhnen. This man in the middle now, you
3 see him.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: With the dark hair.
5 MR RAMPTON: Without the glasses.
6 MR IRVING: Which one?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dark hair, without the glasses.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right to the person with the glasses. You see it?
9 MR RAMPTON: That one?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This one, right, excuse me. This is — excuse me.
11 MR IRVING: That is Remer.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Staglich?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, to the right one. This is, in the middle, Otto Ernst
15 (Video continues.)
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This speaker says that Michael Kuhnen is in the meeting
17 and also Manfred Roeder. Manfred Roeder was convicted by
18 a court of having done terrorist activities against asylum
19 seekers. He got out of prison some time before this
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What terrible things did he do to asylum seekers?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He arsoned their house.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Arsoned?
24 MR IRVING: Set fire to it.
25 MR RAMPTON: Yes, set fire to it.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Set fire, thank you.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Were the people inside?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Two people were killed.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: You say he is welcomed to this meeting?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
5 MR IRVING: He was a lawyer, was he not?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, will you get your chance. I do
7 not really think we can make this too conversational.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But I may state that Manfred Roeder is not Jurgen Rieger –
11 this is a very famous right-wing extremist lawyer.
12 (The video tape continued).
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we pause there. Do you recognise that
15 MR IRVING: It’s Anthony Hancock.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: Who is Anthony Hancock? We will not have evidence
18 from Mr Irving at this stage.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do not have want Dispatches conclusions
20 after that.
21 MR RAMPTON: What?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do not want Dispatches conclusions after
23 their detective work; we want this there witness to
25 MR RAMPTON: No, I want to know what this witness says. I do
26 not want to hear Mr Irving says either.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, you said Hancock?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Tony or Anthony Hancock, it is put differently. He is one
3 of the very active British revisionists, active also in a
4 political sense, and in close connection to David Irving,
5 very close.
6 (The video continues.)
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we pause there. I am not understanding
8 what this is being used for.
9 MR RAMPTON: That is Mr Hancock lying about his name and his
10 reason for being there.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what, if I may say so?
12 MR RAMPTON: Well, it is there; it does no do any harm.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think it possibly does. All I am
14 concerned to get out of this, as I understand it, is who
15 was present at the meetings at which Mr Irving either
16 spoke or was himself present.
17 MR RAMPTON: This is such a person.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well fine, but we have established that he
19 was there. Why do we have him being evasive on camera,
20 because that seems to me to be prejudicial without being
22 MR RAMPTON: It may be so, but the fact is this witness has
23 told your Lordship that this man has a close connection
24 with Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine, but the fact he is lying
26 presumably out of Mr Irving’s hearing seems me to be
1 stretching this all too far.
2 MR RAMPTON: No. If he has a reason to lie, it may be inferred
3 in this context what it is.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we fast forward to the next bit which
5 identifies somebody else as having being present.
6 (The video continues.)
7 MR RAMPTON: I think we do need to see those gentlemen. Who
8 are they?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: These are Munich skinheads, staging something – it is
10 difficult do explain —-
11 MR IRVING: It is a stunt.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is very simple, on the other hand. They are staging a
13 thing that was already staged in 1978. It is a repetition
15 MR RAMPTON: Right.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Where Christian Worch, the same Christian Worch, and
17 Michael Kuhnen said similar things. Here it is said:
18 “I ass believe still what is told to me”. It is a clear
19 reference to the so-called Auschwitz lie.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]: You mean: “I am an ass because I believe that Auschwitz
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, “I just believe everything I am told”.
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes, including Auschwitz, is that right?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a clear-cut reference to the ideas of the Holocaust
26 denier, that it did not happen but: “I, ass, believe that
1 it was told that Holocaust happened”.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, is this something that was
3 done on stage, as it were, at the meeting in Munich on the
4 21st April?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was on stage during this Congress, 21st April, in
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: On 21st April?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 1990.
9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: On stage, as it were?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: On stage.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, that photograph is not actually on the
12 stage. It is somewhere in the audience or in the
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. You are right. He is right. It is not on
15 stage, but it is staged.
16 (The video continued)
17 They are singing the first verse of the national anthem
18 that is, since 45, forbidden. It refers to the Reich in
19 the space of the Reich (German). That is a clear cut —-
20 THE INTERPRETER: From the river Mars to the River Memel.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: One river is in Belgium. The other river is north to East
22 Prussia. Because of that and the first beginning of this
23 first verse, Deutschland uberalles, Germany above all, the
24 first verse of the national anthem is forbidden since
25 decades, so this is a clear cut attempt to attack it.
26 MR RAMPTON: Do you mean it is forbidden by law?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is forbidden by law.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And has been since 1945?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not 1945, but early on in the Federal Republic
4 (The video continued)
5 You see again both, to the left Ewald Althans and on the
6 right Christian Worch. This is, I would interpret, a
7 telling picture of the organizational activities and
8 activists. I think this person — excuse me — but I am
9 not totally —-
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are not totally sure I do not think
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not totally sure. This is again Staglich and then the
13 next, it is Karl Philipps, this one, so far. I know but,
14 because I do not know him personally and I have just some
15 photos, I am very cautious, but I think, as this is told
16 in the TV, this is Thomas Heinke, the chief of a skinhead
17 faction, very violent activists group in Beiderfeld, this
18 is in north west Germany.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know it is Heinke?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is said by different sources, and by those who did the
21 Michael Schmidt film, who helped to do the Michael Schmidt
22 film, so one of the best experts I had, I must say.
23 (The video continued).
24 MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there please? Do you know what is
25 taking place here? This looks like a march?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. This is a debated march to the Feltan Halle of the
1 21st April Congress, and it was then later on cut by
2 police intervention.
3 MR IRVING: Can I ask you if you —-
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you will have your chance, Mr Irving.
5 MR IRVING: It is important we should know if they are marching
6 northwards or southwards, my Lord.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You mean to or from the conference hall? Do
8 you know the answer to that.
9 MR IRVING: Is that the Vienna Strasse in Munich.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you know whether they are going to the
11 conference or away from it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They go away from the conference, but I do not know to
13 what direction, north, south, because I am not familiar
14 with Munich.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Let us get on with this.
16 (The video continued)
17 Here, stop, please. Back a bit, if I may ask that.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is again Michael Kuhnen, so you see here both of
19 them. We are talking about twenty minutes or an hour ago,
20 on the one hand David Irving and here Michael Kuhnen.
21 MR IRVING: Can I ask you again, can you recognize whether
22 I was walking northwards up Vienna Strasse from the
23 background there?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As I said, I am not familiar with—-
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you will have your chance. Can
26 you just sit patiently.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Here you see the Reichskriegsflagge.
2 MR RAMPTON: You will have to explain Reichskriegsflagge,
3 strictly speaking, because this is an English court.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Shall I do it now?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes because we are going to see it again. Pause. Down in
6 the bottom left hand corner of the picture there is a flag
7 with an eagle in it. Right?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. Right.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. It is easy for you now. Reichskriegsflagge is what?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is a flag that was used by nationalists before the
11 First World War, and during the Weimer republic, but it is
12 here, you see there Michael Kuhnen, and there the
13 Reichskriegsflagge. Michael Kuhnen, for example, said
14 that we use this flag as long as we cannot use the
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just so that we get it right, a Reichskriegsflagge is a
17 Reichs war flag, is that right?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you very much.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know the German Nationalists, before the National
21 Socialists came to influence in the late 20s, they were
22 very anti-democratic in their own ideas, to a degree
23 anti-Semitic too, and of course, especially before the
24 First World War, very much war mongering. So this is a
25 kind of reference to these kind of ideas.
26 (The video continued).
1 MR IRVING: That again does not appear to come from the
2 Dispatches programme, my Lord. There was no commentary of
3 any kind. It appears to have been just glued together
4 from various odd bits and pieces.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that right?
6 MR RAMPTON: No. I did not do it, but I am bound to say I find
7 these repeated attacks on the integrity of my junior and
8 my solicitors perfectly absurd.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is attack on anyone’s
11 MR RAMPTON: Of course it is.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If your instructions are, or you are told by
13 Miss Rogers that that does come from Dispatches, for my
14 part, I would accept it straightaway.
15 MR RAMPTON: I am told it is all part of the same occasion and
16 this is what the Professor says.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all part of the Dispatches programme?
18 That is the point.
19 MR RAMPTON: Is it? Somebody must know the answer. I did not
20 do it.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know. Can I say?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You had better wait and see.
23 MR RAMPTON: It is partly from the actual programme and it is
24 partly from what I think are called the rushes, the uncut
25 material taken on the same occasion. If Mr Irving says
26 this is not Munich on 21st April 1990, let him say so.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Dispatches material, but it was but
2 not actually part of the broadcast?
3 MR RAMPTON: It was stuff that was not transmitted, yes.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, of course, the point I am making is that,
5 if there is cross cutting to indicate there are people
6 over there and I am over there, and there is subsequent,
7 quite clearly from the quality of the film footage, they
8 are taken on different cameras.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what I have said is that these
10 films are going to be admitted for the purpose of
11 demonstrating, if they do demonstrate it, who was present
12 at meetings at which you spoke or were present yourself.
13 MR IRVING: I am aware of that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that should be the limit of it. Are
15 we finished with Munich?
16 MR RAMPTON: I think we are finished with Munich. I use
17 Mr Irving’s words in a minute. There is an aspect of this
18 on which I also rely. It is not simply who else was
19 there, and I have said this before, and what was said by
20 the various people, including Mr Irving, which is
21 obviously important because we are talking about groups of
22 like minded people, it is, to use Mr Irving’s phrase, the
23 rabble rousing element of it, which one will see very
24 clearly when one comes to Halle.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When Mr Irving can be seen to be present and
26 involved, yes.
1 MR RAMPTON: Rabble rousing.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Otherwise no. I think that must be the
4 MR RAMPTON: You will see the rabble. When you get to Halle,
5 you will see the skinhead rabble and then you will see
6 Mr Irving standing on a scaffold rousing the rabble.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
8 MR RAMPTON: This is a film made by Mr Irving himself,
9 I think. It comes from his own video, my Lord, called
10 “Ich komme wieder”. It has probably been edited out of
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is this?
13 MR RAMPTON: Passau. This is No. 3, Passau DVU. It is very
15 (The video continued
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Gerhard Frey, this person.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is Gerhard Frey.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, this person in the middle here. Left to the — no,
19 right from here, right to David Irving, there you see
20 David Irving and on the right you see next to the middle
21 Gerhard Frey, the DVU chief, the chief of the German
22 Volksunion, of the Deutsche Volksunion, the leader.
23 (The video continued)
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is it.
25 MR RAMPTON: That is it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Passau in ’87 or?
1 MR RAMPTON: Yes?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not in ’87.
3 MR RAMPTON: ’91?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In ’91.
5 MR RAMPTON: The next one, my Lord, is the long one, the
6 Leuchter Congress. I would like the people in charge of
7 the machine to zip through — I do not want a whole lot of
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I agree.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: A whole lot of speeches from this group, just to know who
11 they are and get a flavour of the occasion.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Ewald Althans. It is before the museum in Munich.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the date of this?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 23rd March ’91.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
16 MR RAMPTON: Can you pause there a moment? I would like to
17 tell his Lordship or I will ask a question, who made this
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is shown in the beginning, it is Samisdart(?). This is
20 the name of the Samisdart publisher, Ernst Zundel, in
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Zundel?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Zundel.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Commercially made, was it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was — it was remade for publishing.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So it was cut and there are written things on it, so if
2 you are interested we can go into details, but…
3 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Excuse me, this is a film made by Mr Zundel for his own
4 purposes, professionally made, so it has been cut and
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Exactly.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: And was it to be sold and distributed to the world at
8 large or whoever wanted it?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not sure if it is only for limited purposes, of
10 limited audiences and publics, I do not know.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]: But the important thing about this is it is Zundel’s
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Exactly.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]: It was disclosed by Mr Irving and so far — you have seen
15 it before.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: The Defendants have not tampered with it?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The Defendants?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tampered, fiddled?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, it is just by Zundel.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is an entire Zundel document?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you very much.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Mrs Von Tonningen. This is a person from the
25 Netherlands, a networker of high skills, very identified
26 with the National Socialist cause. This is the famous
1 Ahmed Rami with his very anti-Semitic speech. This is the
2 translator. It is Bouffeur from France who is also active
3 in the revisionist scene.
4 This is another translator, Fritz Becker from
5 Einshaus. Henry Rock, he is a stated, he is an author, a
6 Gerstein expert and editor of the French Zeitschift Review
7 D’histoire Revisionist.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I draw your attention to say that so
9 far we have not seen my face once on the screen yet.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was looking out for you.
11 MR IRVING: Yes. You will recognise me when I come.
12 (The video continued)
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I —-
14 THE INTERPRETER: Since we are playing the sound, would you
15 like a running translation of it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think we are not going to do it that
18 MR RAMPTON: No. We will get it transcribed and translated in
19 each case.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is the right way.
21 MR RAMPTON: We might have had enough of this.
22 MR IRVING: I was enjoying that!
23 MR RAMPTON: Could we fast forward, please, since we do not
24 know what he is saying?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think, from what I could gather,
26 there was very much that was of any particular materiality
1 it is a chronicle of the —-
2 MR RAMPTON: On this occasion it may be more a question of who
3 else was there.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is the point, is it not?
5 MR RAMPTON: And what they were saying.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is he?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Is this Staglich again?
8 MR RAMPTON: It is the same old faces.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is one person there —-
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you go back a bit?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — who will speak later, Peter Verala to the right, just
12 to the right. This is Pedro Verala. He stood all the
13 time in the back of the stage. This is Paul Knutsen a
14 Danish activist of the same scene, both revisionists and
15 right wing extremist activities involved. This is now
16 Pedro Verala speaking and having a tape of the Haute Lyons
17 D’Egrelle(?). That was the Lyons D’Egrelle.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Althans?
19 MR RAMPTON: Althans in the —-
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Althans again, right.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I thought so.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is now Ditlieb Felderer, a Swedish activist of the
24 MR RAMPTON: Is it a man or a woman — oh, it is a man.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There is Christian Worch, organizer of the security aspect
26 of this conference, with his troopers, if I may say so.
1 This is again Raymund Bachman of Austria. To the left you
2 see Christian Worch. They sing again the first verse of
3 the National Anthem that is forbidden. This is a
4 reference to the berkhof(?) of Hitler, so far as I see
5 it. This is it.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship will have noticed that apart
7 from my actual appearance, there is no appearance of
8 myself in that video, if you see what I am saying?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have an opportunity to say whether
10 you were or were not there for the whole of it.
11 MR IRVING: While the images were fresh in your Lordship’s
12 memory, I wished to…
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right, well, that is fair enough.
14 MR RAMPTON: How long is this one?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is a rally in Halle.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this the last one, Halle?
17 MR RAMPTON: The last one.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we try to deal with it?
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes. We will deal with it, if your Lordship will
20 permit, by the same means.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have actually got a transcript of
23 MR RAMPTON: Have we?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 11?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Gottfried Kussel.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this Halle already?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Just pause a second. I do not know whether it is — at
3 least I assume it is the same tab 11 in D2(iii)?
4 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship is miles ahead of me, D2(iii).
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it November 9th 1991, Professor Funke?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is 9th November of ’91.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is the same one.
8 MR RAMPTON: That is absolutely right, my Lord.
9 MR IRVING: Can we establish whether this is from Dispatches or
10 the raw uncut footage, please?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a proper enquiry.
12 MR RAMPTON: Of course it is. I do not know the answer. That
13 is all. It is taken from This Week, not Dispatches, and
14 it is such footage as we have.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we are getting the whole lot, in other
17 MR RAMPTON: Yes, but again I suggest that we do not need to —
18 we identify Kussel.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, if I can just ask you to pause for a
20 moment? There are three video tapes. There is the “This
21 Week” programme as broadcast and there are two video tapes
22 which fell into our hands by accident, containing the raw
23 uncut footage of this programme. The “This Week”
24 programme is heavily edited and, as a matter of interest,
25 I would just like to know what the court is going to be
26 shown now, whether it is the raw, uncut footage.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: “This Week”, I think, is what is being shown
2 and the whole of “This Week”, as I understand it.
3 MR IRVING: I understood Miss Rogers to say it was such footage
4 as they had.
5 MR RAMPTON: It is not edited. You can see that from the
6 timing —-
7 MR IRVING: So this is the raw, uncut footage?
8 MR RAMPTON: — thing. That is why it is rather long and, I
9 am afraid, it is very “samey”, but the sameness is rather
10 striking so perhaps we should continue in fast forward for
11 a bit.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Exactly the same basis as before. Yes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As I said, this is Gottfried Kussel marching at the top so
14 representing that he is the successor of —-
15 MR RAMPTON: Excuse me. When you get to Kussel being
16 interviewed, could you stop it, please, because I want to
17 hear —-
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: By the way, this is the main transparent — banner, thank
19 you, showing that, you know, Reiner Sonntag, Rudolf Hess
20 and a third person. These are the matters of the Reich.
21 This matter of the Reich, you see it down.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Matters of —-
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Matters of the Reich, Rudolf Hess in the middle, Reiner
24 Sonntag to the left and Michael Kuhnen to the right. I
25 have to say that Reiner Sonntag was a neo-Nazi activist in
26 Dresden of the same camp, of the neo-Nazi camp, and was
1 killed by non-political reasons, as far as the record is
2 there. Michael Kuhnen died by disease in April ’91.
3 MR RAMPTON: Right, thank you.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Deutsche TV. You see now all the political little
5 tiny important for them and for the scene groups, and here
6 this is the political arm of the Kuhnen crew or the
7 Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. So a group that is described by
8 all sources, including the official ones in Germany as
9 neo-National Socialists.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What significance are the colours black, white and red, if
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is again schwarz, weiss, rot, black, white —-
13 THE INTERPRETER: Black, white and red?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — and red, reference to the Nationalistic cause to as
15 long as they are not allowed to use swastikas, swastika
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Carry on.
18 (The video continued)
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a bit quick. I cannot identify the persons by this
20 speed. Here again you —-
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Continue with the —-
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is the Reichskriegsflagge again. The police
23 sheltering the demonstration. Ah, maybe you go a bit
24 back, if I may ask you? OK, now with tone, with sound.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Stop there, what?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This, OK.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: What are they shouting first of all?
2 THE INTERPRETER: “We’ll get you all”?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: “Alle wir kriegen Euch”?
5 THE INTERPRETER: “We’ll get you all”.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “Wir kriegen Euch alle”. “We get you all”.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who is “all”, who is “you”?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is a slogan that is used by this very aggressive
9 demonstrations and attack attempts on asylum seekers home
10 in the early 1990s, so I did book on the Rostock event
11 where this kind of attack of assylum seeker home where
12 this again was shouted. So, it is a very aggressive, “We
13 get you all”.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but it is xenophobia, it is not
15 specifically anti-Semitic?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, but it can turn because often they are both and they
17 were asked to be both, anti-Semitic destroying cemeteries
18 of Jews, and be against foreigners. This is Deutsche
19 Hessen, German Hesser, and there to the right you have one
20 of the other main active neo-Nazis leaders thinks Heinz
21 Reisz, R-E-I-S-Z. He is one of the active persons in
22 Hesser. This is a run down region of —-
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you pause there a moment? Professor, have you tried
24 to estimate or do you know how many people were at this
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was estimated by various sources around 5 to 600.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton]: The pictures we have seen so far are mostly, not entirely,
2 are of what one might call skinheads wearing what the
3 English call “bovver” boots. To what extent were they
4 characteristic of the audience?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They are very characteristic. You have here a clear cut
6 sign or picture, better to say, of several, you know,
7 groupings coming together. The basis of them are these
8 often without hair, you know —-
9 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Skinheads?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — short hair, dressed and boots of this kind where you
11 can do this kind of marching things, using this
12 Reichskriegsflagge as described, wearing special jackets.
13 They are the core of the skinhead, the violent skinhead,
14 scene. This is the one level. The other level is that
15 all the little tiny groups of the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
16 of the Kuhnen crew, after his death, the Kuhnen crew, of
17 course, with Worch and others are there joining, and also
18 those who are a bit of distance, you can see it a bit
19 later, coming to join because there is a joint effort to
20 go to the next step of this strategy.
21 The third dimension, the third level, so to
22 speak, is that also the NPD, the normal right-wing
23 extremists, if I may say so, not so violent, not so
24 neoNazi orientated, come to a degree also and are invited
25 by this already mentioned to Thomas Dienel, the chief of
26 the NPD of Tourignia, Tourignia at that point, at that
1 time, and the second chief or one of the second chiefs of
2 the Federal level of the NPD.
3 So you have an attempt to join on the very
4 radical level the whole scenery to make the next
5 strategical step. You have to recall, if I may say this
6 as a last sentence, that in the period between ’89 and
7 this very day since the fall of the Wall, two years were
8 gone, and in this they could establish this kind of
9 movement of male youngsters to be as furious against
10 foreigners as anti-Semitic and for Aryan race based state.
11 Last sentence again, the amount of violence, you
12 know, were more intense in ’91 than in ’90, and again
13 in ’92. So they are at a juncture of spreading their
14 influence in the violent youngsters’ scene, especially in
15 East Germany.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we see Mr Irving on the way in —-
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: We will see.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — as it were, to the meeting? We will see him, will
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not know if we see him on the march.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]: We certainly see him on the scaffold in due course?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was really wondering. Yes,
24 I see.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is — you can go on. This is another Krubrich is the
26 name, another activist. Can you go a bit back, if I may
1 ask you? You see there the Leipzig(?) grouping come and
2 join to, tried to join.
3 (The video continued)
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: With sound, please?
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Can you stop there, please? What are they shouting?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot hear it.
7 THE INTERPRETER: A moment ago they shouted “Aus lande aus” and
8 the last bit was unintelligible, so “Foreigners out” they
9 shouted before.
10 MR IRVING: Would you comment or can you see red flags there in
11 the background?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. These are not flags of, if I may interpret it, if
13 you allow?
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: These are not red flags of leftists, as you may think.
16 These are flags of the national bloc. This is very much
17 to the hardcore right-wing extremists of the neo-Nazi
18 scene. Again, a kind of revolutionary, representing a
19 kind of national socialist revolutionary strategy of
20 strasse faction way back to the early ’30s, and they are
21 of the rural area, this group. “Rotfront verrecke” was
22 shouted. “Rotfront verrecke”.
23 THE INTERPRETER: “Red front, go and die”.
24 MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did not hear that, what?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This to the right in the middle is Thomas Dienel, the
26 already mentioned Thomas Dienel. In the middle you have
1 Christian Worch. So the both organizers, as I alluded to
2 before, and to the left, this is so far as I know, an
3 activist of the region of Halle.
4 (The video continued)
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is, excuse me, this flag is the flag of Christian
6 Worch’s group of Hamburg, the nationalist NL.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which flag is that at the back?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This black, white.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, thank you.
10 (The video continued)
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is Worch has spoken.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I pause a moment? My Lord, I do not
13 think you were looking, but there was a cut between the
14 introductory passage where your Lordship starting marking
15 and then the camera moved its position. I think it would
16 have taken him probably five, 10 or 15 seconds to move to
17 a new position during which you missed, obviously, 15
18 seconds of intervening text.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long did you speak for?
20 MR IRVING: I was a guest appearance of five minutes, I think,
21 altogether. I arrived. I spoke for five minutes and
22 I immediately left.
23 MR RAMPTON: The diary says for the appropriate date that he
24 made a “rabble rousing 10 or 15 minutes”.
25 MR IRVING: 10 or 15 minutes, and if you could just run it back
26 just a few seconds, then you will see where the actual
1 break occurs.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right. I was reading but I was
3 following it.
4 MR IRVING: There.
5 (The video continued)
6 MR IRVING: Another cut there.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You see “Sieg Heil” shouting. Christian Worch is
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there much more of this?
10 MR RAMPTON: That is about it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not a criticism; it is just that I see
12 the time.
13 MR RAMPTON: No, I know. We can look at it again at the end of
14 the case, if necessary. One sees what one sees and hears
15 what one hears.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Five past two.
17 (Luncheon Adjournment).
18 (2.05 p.m.)
19 MR RAMPTON: My examination in chief of Professor Funke has
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it probably was, Mr Irving.
Part III: David Irving Cross-Examines Funke on Video Evidence 85.22 to 183.6
Section 85.2 to 125.5
22 < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
23 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, good afternoon. Before we start
24 looking at your report, I think it makes sense for me to
25 take up some points of what has been said in the
26 examination-in-chief while it is still fresh in our
1 memory, and particularly some of the things that we have
2 seen on the videos. The very last video we saw was the
3 events in Halle on November 9th 1991. Is that is correct?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you studied the events of that day in any particular
6 detail, looked at the press clippings or other footage
7 than we have seen on television?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I tried the best I can.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Am I right in saying that the world’s television
10 news commentators were there, all the big names, Martin
11 Bell, the equivalent of the German television stations
12 were there?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was a lot of coverage about this demonstration, this
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you familiar with the fact that German television
16 newsreel teams, in order to spice the footage of what they
17 are filming, sometimes bribe people in the audience to do
18 illegal acts, committing illegal acts?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know about it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you heard of episodes where, for example, a Frankfurt
21 television producer was prosecuted for arranging for
22 skinheads to give Hitler salutes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If you give me evidence, it would be fine to see it and to
24 react on this.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: That is a perfectly proper answer.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If this is the case, of course it has to be criticised.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Did you see on the footage that we just saw, when
2 these irresponsible shouts from the audience of Siegheil,
3 — which is a Hitler salute, is it not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you see me put up my hand to tell them to stop?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. At least, you did a kind of gesture, not instigating
7 it but —-
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: To indicate that it was not welcome?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In a way, yes. I would say so. It is a guess, though, it
10 is an interpretation, but definitely you did not —-
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not encourage it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — go with these kind of shoutings at that given moment.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you hear from anyone, or did you see any other film
14 footage which suggested that in the first part that was
15 missing I had said to the audience, you are a
16 predominantly youthful audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Please repeat the question, if I may ask.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: In the first passage that was omitted from that, did you
19 see any other footage, or hear any tapes, or read any
20 suggestions that in that part that was cut out, to which
21 I drew his Lordship’s attention, I said to the audience
22 “You are young people” effectively?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What I recall very vividly is that you referred to the
24 future of Germany and alluding to these youngsters there,
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: That I said “You are Germany’s future”?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Something like this.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: And that “No-one can accuse you of war crimes”?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Something like this, but now we have to get your website
4 on the desk so I can interpret it with you together.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you hear on the video that we saw me saying in German,
6 as they gave the skinheads the Siegheil salute, did you
7 hear me saying, “You should not be coming with the slogans
8 of Germany’s past”?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Something like this sense. The complete wording I am not
10 aware of.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Should not always be thinking about the
13 MR IRVING: Well —-
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Same thing.
15 MR IRVING: I was asking for the actual words that I used,
16 which were, “You should not be using the slogans of the
17 past when I have just described you as being Germany’s
18 future”. Another couple of general questions. Did you
19 see the pictures of me standing in my rain coat watching
20 this crowd of people coming down the street?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you get the impression from my demeanour that I was
23 overjoyed and very happy at what was going on? Or did
24 I look rather — would you describe me — well, how would
25 you describe me? I cannot lead.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot answer this question precisely, but maybe extend
1 to two or three further sentences that include my
2 picture. That is that you came into the hall, as the
3 video showed, the hotel hall, saw the people there, a lot
4 of them who were then in the demonstration. You came
5 supposedly with Uschi Worch. So you knew, Mr Irving,
6 about the character of this whole event, as I said it just
7 before the break. The Christian Worch and Uschi Worch
8 groupings came into this demonstration. I would think
9 that, because of this shouting throughout the
10 demonstration — your Lordship, you saw just a bit of
11 it — there was steadily this kind of “aus aus lande aus”
12 shouting, again and again “Siegheil”, not only at that
14 THE INTERPRETER: Foreigners out.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: “Out out foreigners out”, and this shouting alike, so the
16 character of the demonstration would have been very clear
17 for you.
18 MR IRVING: Now my question again. Did I look shocked when
19 I was standing there in my rain coat?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say. I really cannot say.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: Was I waving my arms enthusiastically, or was I standing
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You did not shout “Siegheil”, and you did not make these
24 gestures of the Nazi period. I did not see that. This is
25 all what I can say.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: This takes me to another question, which may well interest
1 his Lordship. Was there any manifestation of Holocaust
2 denial on that day in Halle? Do you understand the
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To me? Excuse me.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it was to you.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. I understood.
7 MR IRVING: Or was it just —
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was a rousing speech afterwards, of too much
9 Dienel. That was very, very aggressive and I have to
10 recall — maybe you will see the typewritten version or
11 you will see the video. It was very aggressive against
12 foreigners, but Holocaust denial things I did not hear.
13 MR IRVING: Yes. This leads to another question. Were there
14 any expressions of anti-Semitism during the functions or
15 on the video tapes that you have seen of that particular
16 function, not just xenophobia, not just “aus lande aus.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I got your point.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: Explicit anti-Semitism? Are these useful questions, my
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely.
21 MR IRVING: Yes.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, they were concentrated on this hatred against
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you see any pictures in that film footage we saw of me
25 with this gentleman, Thomas Dienel, together?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: On the stage.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Together?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know he was around. We have to look on the video.
3 You know on the stage there were Christian Worch and you
4 and —-
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: It was the back of a lorry, in fact.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Skinhead guys, so far as I know, of the region. Then you
7 came before this both, you came and then you left. This
8 is what I saw. You are right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: In fact, have you read my diary and do you get the
10 impression from my diary in doing so that I arrived,
11 I spoke and I left immediately and headed back to West
12 Germany within ten minutes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think you would not make it in ten minutes to West
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, I stayed around for ten minutes to make my speech
16 and left immediately. Was that the impression you got?
17 Or did you get the impression that I stayed there the
18 whole day, applauding every speaker?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The diary shows no further inclination with the procedures
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: The diary refers to my making a rabble rousing speech,
22 does it not, which Mr Rampton read out this morning?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen any references in my diary to my making a
25 rabble rousing speech to my third daughter, Paloma, when
26 she misbehaved one day and I made a rabble rousing —-
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You have to give me evidence.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I think I would not pursue as a question
3 because it will involve about ten minutes of explanation.
4 MR IRVING: Yes. I think I have established the main points.
5 Just let me ask you once again. Do you specifically
6 recall seeing any image of me on that film footage on the
7 back of that truck next to or talking to Thomas Dienel?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not see it on the video, no.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: No. The Leuchter Congress, which is the film that was
10 shown just before that, March 23rd 1991, his Lordship
11 invited you not to translate what I said in my remarks,
12 but would it be right to say that I just told the
13 audience, “I have to tell you that I cannot tell you
14 anything, the police have ruled that we cannot talk about
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did I then continue to say that my topic was going to be a
18 lecture on Winston Churchhill and the United States entry
19 into World War II? Was that going to be the topic?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: It was not going to be Holocaust denial or it was not
22 going to be an anti-Semitic talk, to your knowledge?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: The Munich lecture of April 1990, this was the Wahrheit
25 Macht Frei lecture that we saw, the one that cost me so
26 much, those few words, Wahrheit Macht Frei is “the truth
1 shall set you free”. Is that an appropriate translation
2 of that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think so.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that not in fact a quotation from the Bible, the
5 scriptures, from John 8.32?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. I am not so Biblefest, as we say in
8 THE INTERPRETER: Not as well versed in the Bible.
9 MR IRVING: It had nothing to do with whatever private
10 obsessions Mr Rampton may have with that phrase? It has
11 nothing to do with anybody’s — in other words there are
12 other possible explanations why that is a popular phrase
13 in Germany?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The question of Richard Rampton was quite valid. It came
15 into my mind in the subconscious.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: The resonance?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The resonance and the reference to the Nazi period,
18 because of the aggressive outlet of the whole event in
19 April 90 as set out by Mr Althans in saying, this is the
20 end of the defence revisionists and now we have to think
22 THE INTERPRETER: We have to change our thinking.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And then, according to the sense, for a new political
24 revolution or the like. I have to find the exact quote.
25 So there is a surrounding atmosphere that can lead to
26 these kinds of sensitivity that can allude to this Nazi
1 period slogans.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: Still dwelling on the Munich events, have you seen any
3 reference in my diary to my criticising Althans for the
4 appearance at that function?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: For what at the function?
6 MR IRVING: The appearance, the way it was staged, the staging
7 of it.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall with respect to the 1st April ’90
9 Congress, you said two things, except the skinheads and
10 the flags, or so in your diary.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I did not like the skinheads and I did not like the
12 flags and I told Althans that.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I add something?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do. I was just looking up the diary
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course it is of interest to see you again meeting these
17 skinheads in Halle and elsewhere.
18 MR IRVING: Confronting them, or having them imposed upon me?
19 Would that be the right way to say it?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say yes to that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: It is not impossible, of course, that these skinheads have
22 been bribed to come along and shout those slogans for the
23 benefit of the newsreel cameras?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No way, because I looked very exactly to the surrounding
25 conditions and I laid this out before the break, and
26 I could extend it to hours, what this special meeting in
1 early November ’91 meant, especially for the two levels of
2 the three I mentioned, that is the neo-Nazi reorganizing
3 attempts and the reference and the organizational capacity
4 they want to extend to the violent skinheads scenery in
5 East Germany.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: Of course, you agree that, if I had no connection with
7 anybody at that Halle function, apart from the invitation
8 from Mrs Worch to come and deliver a five-minute talk,
9 then what the infrastructure may have been is not
10 necessarily something that I will have heard about?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a kind of denying, if I may say so. This whole
12 circumstance, this political revisionist, the like,
13 circumstances, you took side, you cooperated for a period
14 of time with 26, you know, mentioning of the interaction
15 between the Worches and so forth, the Ewald Althans
16 interaction was even more intense, the Karl Philipp
17 interaction. So, if I may draw the attention to the whole
18 picture you will get if you see Mr Irving throughout these
19 years interacting with these groups, and he again and
20 again had to face this, and all the way long he reiterated
21 his quest to speak before these audiences, and was there.
22 So in that sense, I will draw a different picture than
23 this is alluded in the question of Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: You talk about getting the global picture. Well, today
25 and I suppose now tomorrow as well, we will be getting the
26 global picture, which is everything I was doing at that
1 time and not just these one or two episodes that have been
2 selected. Do you agree with that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not everything, oh no.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: There is a much wider picture.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I just pinpoint these things that are of importance for
6 the libel act, having extremist views, are you a dangerous
7 Holocaust denier. You know, the Holocaust denier thing is
8 somehow embedded in these political years, and that may
9 cause a judgment to be dangerous, and this is up to of
10 course the court and not to me. But there is something
11 that conflates the two levels of activities — conflate,
12 coming together.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Converge?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Converge, excuse me.
15 MR IRVING: Yes. You have picked altogether on, I think we
16 will find we end up with about half a dozen names that
17 mean anything, because most of these people, you will
18 probably agree, I have never met or heard of before. So,
19 if we end up with half a dozen or a dozen names.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is too broad to be answerable.
21 MR IRVING: There is a question that actual follows. That was
22 a comma there. The question now follows. Professor
23 Funke, will you now please have a look at the little
24 bundle of documents I gave you, so we can give it a kind
25 of scale of proportion.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Is this the bundle J?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
2 MR IRVING: Yes, it is. Professor Funke, if you just look at
3 pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, I do not want you to read them, just
4 look at the numbers at the top of each of those pages.
5 Will you agree with me that those are the title pages of
6 five of my address lists on my computer, and that they
7 show respectively totals of addresses of 571, 1169, 966,
8 2000, 158, 1662 records? All told about 6,500
9 acquaintances that I have, just from these five address
10 lists. You have picked on six or 12 or of that order of
11 magnitude. I have contacts with all of these 6,500
12 people. That is the global picture. You have picked on
13 just these few. Would you agree that therefore possibly
14 the poisonous extremism which you think you have found in
15 David Irving is possibly diluted when it is dropped into
16 the larger ocean of all these worldwide contacts, many of
17 whom are left wing liberals, for example?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is not my duty to judge the 6,000 plus addresses and to
19 look after them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was my duty to refer to the cause of the libel act, and
22 so far I have to reiterate that the bunch of people we
23 discussed before the break are so decisive in making up a
24 very violent movement, that of course there is a question
25 how far, Mr Irving, if I may say so, you are interacted
26 with them, or not. My judgment is that you were in the
1 course of these years.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: In your opinion, yes. I will be looking at a lot of these
3 names in detail as we go through your report but I am
4 going to ask general questions now. You had complete
5 access to all my private diaries, although I noticed in
6 your report there is a reservation about whether it was
7 complete access or not. You had complete access to all my
8 telephone logs. Did you notice that in my private diaries
9 at the beginning of every year there were pasted lists of
10 people who received Christmas cards from me, or from whom
11 I received Christmas cards, just as one thermometer, so to
12 speak, of personal friendships? Did you notice these
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I saw some of them and, of course, I did not address it
15 because it is not to the interests of the public court
16 I let of course out all the very private things, and this
17 is due to my personal understanding, and I think also to
18 the rules of the court.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: But, Professor Funke, you would certainly have mentioned
20 in your report if you had noticed that I had received
21 regularly Christmas cards from the Worch family or from
22 your Thomas Dienel, or any one of these other people, you
23 would have mentioned it, would you not, or if I had sent
24 them? It would have indicated a closer degree of intimacy
25 than just being telephoned by these people?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This question presses me to go in further detail to what
1 I realized with respect to both Worch, and again I have to
2 restrict myself, but what I can say definitely and we can
3 have further detailing of that, that there was a very,
4 very intense relationship, cooperation, and what-have-you,
5 between David Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch. This
6 is for sure.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but we were on Christmas cards. You do
8 not need to repeat what you have said already, if I may
9 say so, Professor.
10 MR IRVING: The answer is no, I think, is it not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is that if you had
12 discovered there were Christmas cards being exchanged with
13 the Worchs regularly, you probably would have said so?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
15 MR IRVING: Another general question: in the exchanges that
16 passed between myself and the Worchs, is there any element
17 of Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism to your memory?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: In the exchanges, the contacts, between myself and Worch,
20 Mrs or Mr Worch, was there any element of Holocaust denial
21 or any element of anti-Semitism?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean, the very fact that Mr & Mr Worch was a key
23 organizer of this very Holocaust denier Congress in Munich
24 is an indication that, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Mr Worch was an organizer of the Leuchter Congress, in
26 your opinion?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, of the first Congress in 21st April ’90.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: On what?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was there and he was there again.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: On what evidence do you base that statement?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If I may add, he was there again in late March, as you
6 could see just a minute ago.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: You say he was there, but how many people do you estimate
8 were there Lowenbraukeller in Munich on 21st April 1990,
9 2,000 people?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. It was said that there were 800 or so.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: So being there is not enough. What evidence do you base
12 your statement that Worch was an organizer of that
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because he prepared it together with others. He was —-
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: What evidence?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He was responsible for the so-called security thing.
17 I said deliberately that this picture, we are both of
18 these various persons stood together, that is Althans, on
19 the one hand — he was, of course, the more important —
20 and Christian Worch, on the other hand, showed something
21 about the degree in which they were interacting by
22 preparation and enacting the Congress.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: So your statement is based purely on that visual image we
24 have of Althans standing next to —-
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, also the references in what you got, I think, of the
26 whole, of the whole letters from you to them and back and
1 so forth.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not want to hold you up, but if you can find evidence
3 that Worch was involved in the organization of the
4 Lowenbraukeller meeting, then perhaps you can present it
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, is the Lowenbraukeller meeting —-
7 MR IRVING: April 21 1990, my Lord. That was the second video
8 that was shown to us today. (To the witness): You
9 estimate there were 800 people in the audience?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say. I was not there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: And all people that were drawn to our attention, the
12 person you identified as Michael Kuhnen craning his neck,
13 the one without glasses, and Otto Ernst Remer and Manfried
14 Reuder, these are the names of people you picked out, they
15 were all sitting halfway down the audience, were they, or
16 in the middle of the audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: They were not wearing nameplates or anything? They had no
19 name tags on, did they?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I saw, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: These may seem silly questions to you, but I have to ask
22 them for obvious reasons. It was the same on the first
23 video that was shown at Hagenau. You identified there
24 Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel and Mr Worch and somebody you said
25 seemed to be Staglich?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: And do you agree that I was not visible on any of those
2 shots in which those people were visible. Therefore,
3 there is no indication that I was in the room at the time
4 that they were there or when mr Zundel was making his
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not by this video.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: Not on this video?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I cannot see because you spoke at the given time and
9 the video is not the last proof if you are at this given
10 moment you were in the room, and there is no way to
11 identify it 100 per cent.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I beg your pardon for interrupting. Are we
13 on the April 1990?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, he went back to Hagenau.
15 MR IRVING: This is Hagenau, the first video, my Lord,
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: The people pointed out to us were Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel,
19 Mr Worch and somebody who “seems to be Staglich”. Those
20 are the only comments I have to make on the videos which
21 were, as I understand it, only introduced or accepted for
22 identification, rogues gallery purposes, on this
23 occasion. Unless your Lordship has any questions to ask?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do one, yes, is Worch’s first name is
26 MR IRVING: “Christian=”.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There are two Worchs.
2 MR IRVING: And his wife is Ursula.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is Uschi?
4 MR IRVING: His wife, Ursula.
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a shortening or a kind of nickname of Ursula.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not sure whether you are
7 putting this, are you suggesting you were not there for
8 the whole of the Halle meeting?
9 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord. I am suggesting that I arrived two
10 or three minutes before it all began. I got on the back
11 of truck, made my 10 minute brief statement to the young
12 Germans, got back in my car and got out of it as fast as I
13 could being thoroughly aggravated by the whole episode.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I say something to that?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You said two or three minutes before you staged your
18 MR IRVING: A few minutes before, two or three minutes.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to pinpoint to the fact that it is shown in the
20 whole scope of the video, of one of the videos I saw —
21 I saw several versions — that you already met, that
22 Mr Irving already met, let us say, half an hour or more
23 before a lot of these people who are organizing or with
24 organizing who are the main participants of this
25 demonstration in the hotel hall where Uschi or Ursula
26 Worch and David Irving arrived.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, are we talking about Hagenau or Halle?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So the whole event has to be taken into account and not
3 only the five or 10 minutes speech during the
4 demonstration. It has also to be taken into consideration
5 the surrounding minutes before Mr Irving spoke.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Are you talking about Halle now?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I thought so.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Excuse me. 9th November ’91.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I am bound to say, I do not know whether you looked at the
11 diary entry, did you?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Because that appears to show Mr Irving arriving at 2 p.m.
14 and leaving at 5 p.m.?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
16 MR IRVING: 2.00 and 5.00, yes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not 10 minutes.
18 MR IRVING: Let me put this question.
19 MR RAMPTON: Three hours.
20 MR IRVING: Well, I was talking actually about the meeting
21 place which is a different part of the town. Perhaps I
22 can be more specific by cross-examination. The hotel that
23 you referred to where these meetings apparently took
24 place, was that one or two miles away from where the truck
25 was parked, if I can put it like that, where the speech
26 was made?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That can be. I am not informed about the site. It is
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that I think explains that, my Lord, that I arrived
4 at the hotel. I remember meeting Martin Bell there and
5 people like that, and I then went over shortly before the
6 speech, made the speech and then got out of it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not want to get bogged down on one diary
8 entry, but that is not, perhaps, the way it reads to me.
9 It says: “Arrived at 2 p.m. I spoke first”.
10 MR IRVING: Yes, as is visible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: “10 or 15 minutes”. That takes you to 2.20,
12 2.15, 2.20, and you left at 5 p.m.
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, what I said is not incompatible with the
14 diary entry, but probably cross-examination by Mr Rampton
15 is a proper place to bring that out —-
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be right actually.
17 MR IRVING: — if I can be so bold as to say that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Anyway, you press on.
19 MR IRVING: But I have an answer for everything, if I can say
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would not put it quite that way.
22 MR IRVING: (To the witness): I am now going to deal with some
23 of the names that you mentioned, and I am now taking them
24 out of sequence out of your report purely because you
25 brought these names to the front in the
26 examination-in-chief this morning. You say that I had a
1 very close relationship with Ewald Althans?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: This is correct, is it not, you said that?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: And it is also —-
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At a given time.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: — not something that will be denied, but I want to ask
8 you a few questions about Ewald Althans. To your
9 knowledge, when did I first get to know him?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think —-
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: In what year?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think —-
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, may I interrupt again because you
14 said something this morning which slightly worried me
15 which was that you were not allowed to ask leading
16 questions. That is true in strict theory, but in practice
17 you can ask leading questions when you are
19 MR IRVING: In cross-examination I can, my Lord, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you did realize that? You said something
21 this morning which made me think you did not realize.
22 MR IRVING: But the situation this morning was not exactly
23 cross-examination; it was more interrupting Mr Rampton.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, no, you said it in the course of
25 cross-examination. I mean, for example, with Althans, it
26 will save time if you say you did not meet him until such
1 and such a date, just say.
2 MR IRVING: Thank you very much, my Lord, yes
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: “Do you accept that I did not meet him until
4 whenever it was?”
5 MR IRVING: (To the witness): In that case, Professor Funke, you
6 accept that I first may have met Mr Althans in Canada in
7 March 1989?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: It is possible that this is the Ewald that I met,
10 according to my diary, is that right?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: But that I first really got to know him in October 1989?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is very probably.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: From your knowledge —-
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Very likely.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: From your knowledge of Ewald Althans and his rise and
17 fall, was he a very bright student, a very bright person?
18 Was he very gifted and intelligent in many ways?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say this. I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But you said something in the diaries to the account of
22 very energetic, and so in any case, whatever the personal
23 judgment may be, you co-operated with him.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, let us see who the person was that I co-operated
25 with and what he became, shall we? Am I right in saying
26 that he spent six months or a year of his life in Israel
1 for an operation called Operation Atonement, Aktion
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not know that?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. I did not — I have to say I read it if it is stated
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you surprised to hear that?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is totally new for me.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: What kind of young man would go to Israel voluntarily on a
10 atonement mission for six months or a year of his life
11 aged about 20, as he then was, and seek to make amends for
12 what the Nazi had done? Would that be inclined to impress
13 you, that kind of young man?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again I am surprised.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: I am asking not about Mr Althans now, but about any young
16 man —-
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: — if he did that. It would tell you something about
19 what kind of character he was?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, definitely. I think so.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: But you accept that people can later on go off the rails,
22 they can be led astray, they fall into bad company.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This can happen.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Later on, of course, he did fall into bad company,
25 did he not? He made a lot of neo-Nazi acquaintances and
26 he undoubtedly turned into a right-wing extremist for a
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At least he turned to a right-wing extremist and, as you
3 say, neo-Nazi.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Now, when he was finally put on trial in Berlin for
5 having taken part in a film, he was sentenced to three and
6 a half years in jail, is that right?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At least to a big amount and I cannot recall how many
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Do you remember what one element of his defence at
10 that trial was which rather surprised the press?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was, as far as I recall, but correct me or others may
12 correct me, that he may took side of the State Secret
13 authorities of the verwaschungsschultz.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did he not claim credibly to have been in the pay of the
15 German Security Services for a substantial part of the
16 latter part of his political career, that he had been
17 acting as an agent for them?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not very familiar with it, so it would be better
19 I have evidence because it is very debated, and I really
20 did not get it through what really was at stake and what
21 the real, you know, state of affairs in this period, let
22 us say, ’93, ’94 was, so…
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me take it in stages then.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to react on your question very vague.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me take it in stages then. You did hear the newspaper
26 reports that Althans had made this very surprising claim?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I saw it, yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you any indication or can you remember how long he
3 was taking money from the Security Services?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: He offered to supply —-
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I even do not know if this is the case.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Would he be likely to have made a claim in a court
8 in Berlin that could easily have been refuted by the
9 Public Prosecutor if it was untrue?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was very debated so I cannot comment on that without
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. So, in other words, he is a very mysterious
13 character, Mr Althans, towards the end of his political
15 MR RAMPTON: I think it would be important to have a date for
16 this particular event because if it occurs after the end
17 or near the end of Mr Irving’s association with him, with
18 Althans, then it, of course, is of no relevance
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The trial was in ’94, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes, precisely. Unless Mr Irving knew at the time
22 when he was in close association with Ewald Althans that
23 he was, in effect, a government spy, it is of no relevance
25 MR IRVING: Then let me put this question to the witness.
26 Dr Funke, have you seen correspondence between myself and
1 Dr Fry in which Dr Fry warned me that Althans was a very
2 suspect character?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I read this.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When is that? I mean, I am not quite sure
5 where it is taking us.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is in the early time when David Irving and Ewald
7 Althans did this very intense cooperation.
8 MR IRVING: In other words, it was at the material times to
9 which Mr Rampton is referring I did receive already an
10 advanced warning that there was something fishy about
11 Mr Althans?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But may I add something to that?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14 MR IRVING: Of course.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know, it has to be taken into account that the DVU was
16 a Congress organization on the right extremist —-
17 THE INTERPRETER: A competitor?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: A competitor on the right, right-wing extremist side. So
19 they feared, so far I recall the diaries and the letters
20 and so forth, that the action Althans is proposing to
21 David Irving may hurt his reputation as accepted in this
22 right-wing extremist circles around the DVU as accepted
23 speaker, because Althans was more far right, as I said, as
24 a neo-Nazi, and may endanger this special, you know,
25 interaction between the right-wing extremists around the
26 DVU, on the one hand, and David Irving on the other
2 So there are several causes that this warning
3 came, and it did not allude to the fact that he may be a
4 member of the Secret Service. If I am allowed to, I would
5 then question also why David Irving took sides with this,
6 you know, dangerous, or whatever, mysterious character at
7 that time for that period of time, but this is a question
8 that may be valued by others.
9 MR IRVING: Certainly it is a question for Mr Rampton to
10 consider when his turn comes along, but the fact remains
11 that if Mr Althans was working for the German Government
12 security agencies, it is possible that he had been given
13 the task of framing me, is it not — if you can understand
14 that question?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can you translate it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I do not.
17 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I do not. Of entrapping you?
19 MR IRVING: [German]. Entrapping, yes.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot answer that. I cannot answer that.
21 MR IRVING: Are you an expert on the verwaschungsschultz, on
22 the German security agencies?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I know it a bit, but I am not an expert on that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you familiar with any other instances where they had
25 used these kinds of methods?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, of course.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, thank you. You made reference to the
2 Wehrsportgruppe, the military exercise units, and
3 Mr Rampton rightly asked you, rather like the Americans
4 who go running around pooping off guns at each other in
5 World War II uniforms, there is that kind of comparison,
6 is there not? The same kind of thing happens in the
7 United States?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am shy to compare these different, you know, political
9 cultures, but there are some to a limit some comparable
10 things there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: There is no suggestion, is there, that I have any
12 connection with one particular group, the Hoffmann group,
13 which you mention in your report?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I did not mention it in relation to David Irving.
15 I did mention it in relation to, and this was an
16 interesting, you know, action, with respect to the DVU and
17 its leader, Gerhard Frey, who so eagerly tried to be legal
18 and said in the letters to David Irving again and again:
19 “Don’t mention Jews, don’t mention Hitler, just because
20 to be not illegalized as an extremist party”. So it was
21 — I wondered very much that this could happen in the
22 late ’70s with Gerhard Frey —-
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: But there was no reason why —-
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — and Hoffmann.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: — you are not implying that I had any connection with
26 that group?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, not at all. It shows, you know, the extent in
2 which right-wing extremism, although legal, tried to
3 extend their behaviour.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: Now you say that in March 1991 it was planned to invite me
5 to Wansiedel?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: To speak on Rudolf Hess. Are you familiar with the fact
8 that I am an expert on Rudolf Hess and that I have
9 published a book on Rudolf Hess?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know that you published a book on Rudolf Hess.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. So would I be a natural speaker to invite to a
12 function like that?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to put it differently to answer it correctly
14 according to my knowledge, and to my judgments, of course,
15 that goes with it, the invitation to speak there was
16 multifaceted. It was also how you present Rudolf Hess to
17 a given audience, so they knew whom they want to invite
18 and have there speaking, and the letters back and forth
19 are very interesting in that respect. As I mentioned
20 earlier, you did not answer positively because of the
21 appearance of —-
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, this is the next question.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask the questions in sequence, please? The book
25 that I wrote about Rudolf Hess would have told them what
26 they needed to know, would it not, what my attitude on
1 that man was?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: The book that I wrote about Rudolf Hess would have told
4 them what my attitude on that man was?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: Was that attitude reprehensible, in your view?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I say, I just say that in combination of the book and how
8 you present the Rudolf Hess case in your speeches in
9 Germany makes it valid for these neo-Nazis to invite you.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there any difference between the hypotheses that I set
11 in my book on Rudolf Hess and the content of my speeches
12 on Rudolf Hess which have been printed several times?
13 There is no distinction?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again I would pinpoint to the context, the political
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: You accept that the book on Rudolf Hess was published by
17 Macmillan & Company in this country which is one of our
18 most prestigious companies?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far I know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: And that they would be unlikely to publish a neo-Nazi or
21 Holocaust denial book or an anti-Semitic book on Rudolf
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: The reason that — we now come to the point you are about
25 to make — I finally rejected the invitation to spoke at
26 Wansiedel, do you know what that reason was?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I got a clue by the diaries and the letters
2 between Worch and you and others.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: Tell the court what the reason was, so far as you know?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You did not want to be on a demonstration or an event
5 where also Michael Kuhnen would be there.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, I refused to be in the same place as Michael Kuhnen.
7 Does that tell you anything about my contact, to use that
8 word, with Mr Michael Kuhnen?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say that you cooperated with Michael Kuhnen, but
10 with the main successors and cooperators of Michael
11 Kuhnen. So with the person you did not do a lot so far as
12 the data are there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I just ask you to look quickly at the little bundle of
14 documents? It should be page 9 or page 8. It is a letter
15 from me to the Der Spiegel?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, it is 8.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 8 or 9, is it?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is 8.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this a letter in which in the second paragraph I am
20 telling Der Spiegel and their readers: “It is not
21 accurate to say that in August I will speak at a function
22 of Mr Kuhnen in Wansiedel in connection with a memorial
23 function for Rudolf Hess”?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, as you said before.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Then when Der Spiegel refused to publish the letter,
26 because they had said exactly the opposite, that on
1 February 17th 1991, if you will turn to the next page,
2 please, I then wrote to my lawyer — I am sorry, this is
3 not the right letter at all. Do we have the right letter?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe it is my report.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it is. I am sorry. It is page 30. Page 30 of that
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What bundle? Your bundle, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: It is either page 29 or page 39, probably page 30. It is
9 headed “Discovery 12.8.9”?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 29 is a sheet of paper with nothing.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: It should be headed “Discovery 12.8.9”?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe it is before, I do not know. No, it is blank.
13 Maybe I get yours for a minute. Thank you.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I asking my Munich lawyer from Sprade, who is a
15 reputable firm of lawyers, to take action to force
16 Der Spiegel to publish this dissociation of any contact
17 between myself and Mr Kuhnen?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to read it. May I read the passage that is of
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Quotation — no, Kuhnen had been identified in the
22 previous paragraph as follows. Then quotation: “Also”,
23 that refers Der Spiegel, quotation, “Also, neo-Nazis like
24 the self-proclaimed Fuhrer of the West German Brown
25 movement, Michael Kuhnen, 34, intend to use Irving
26 increasingly as a figure head. They plan=”, quotation,
1 ‘close collaboration'” quotation end, then quotation
2 “with respectable person like this”, quotation end,
3 “Kuhnen hopes we will also reach circles that otherwise
4 give us a wide berth”.
5 MR IRVING: Yes. Let me ask you a question on that now.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So it is right again that you did not take sides with
7 Kuhnen himself, but you took sides with the Kuhnen
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: In fact, I made it quite plain to Der Spiegel that I have
10 not the slightest intention of allowing them to use me.
11 Is that right?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You were very clear on that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: And can you suggest any reason why a magazine like Der
14 Spiegel would print the opposite story? Would there be an
15 intention to defame me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is neither here nor there and anyway, he
17 cannot possibly say.
18 MR IRVING: While you have the bundle in front of you, can
19 I ask you to look at page 28?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is blank. There is nothing there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 27?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, there is something.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Discovery 10.96?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there a letter translated from one of Germany’s leading
26 publishing houses, Robot Publishing House, to myself dated
1 July 2nd 1985?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is right.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: It is a letter from somebody called Dr Michael Naumand.
4 Does that name mean anything to you?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: What is Dr Michael Naumand now, please?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Minister of Culture.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: At that time he was the Chief Editor of Robot Publishing
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: Here he is writing a letter, “Dear Mr Irving, Mr Hochhut
12 has drawn my attention=” — who is Rolf Hochhut, do you
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is a playwriter in Germany, for example, on Pious
15 12th’s relation to the Nazi period.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is he a left wing liberal?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not quite sure what this goes
18 to but Mr Naumand is expressing an interest in your
19 forthcoming biography of Winston Churchill. Where do we
20 go from there, as it were, especially with this witness?
21 MR IRVING: It is very difficult to do this with any other
22 witness, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have done it with me. For what it is
24 worth, I have got the point. I think you have better
25 weapons in your armoury on this point.
26 MR IRVING: I am being accused of having the whole rogues
1 gallery, to use Mr Rampton’s phrase, of sleezy right-wing
2 extremist friends and in fact I have a”du” friendship with
3 Rolf Hochhut, who is one of Germany’s leading left wing
4 liberal playwright since February 1965. This was the
5 point I hoped to bring out, I had hoped, in about ten
6 seconds of cross-examination.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. Ask the question.
8 MR IRVING: Well, do you know who Rolf Hochhut is? Is he a
9 left wing liberal German playwright?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is a play writer, who attacked in his plays very harsh
11 the silence of Pope Pious the 12th on the issue of the
12 Holocaust during the Nazi period.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: So he is the opposite of a Holocaust denier, then?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would say so, and he is a belover —
15 THE INTERPRETER: An admirer.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: An admirer of Hans Junge, who is on the right, so I cannot
17 say if he is a left liberal or right. He is a playwright.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. He is a playwright.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: A famous playwright.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen about 5,000 items of correspondence between
21 me and Mr Hochhut in the discovery?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not see 5,000 or whatever, but I saw in the diary
23 that you met him in a very friendly manner.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, thank you very much. You mentioned that Mr Staglich,
25 the late Mr Staglich, was a former judge. Did he retire?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Oh this case, I am not very —-
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not know the answer to that?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not very informed about that whole biography of
3 Mr Staglich.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not know if he retired?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There were quarrels because of his denialist or so books
6 and, if I get a minute, I can answer a bit better than
7 just now.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving puts to you that he lost his
9 job, is that right, because of his right-wing views?
10 MR IRVING: That he was dismissed from his position for
11 his views on German history.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is my recollection, but I was not sure, so I am
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Does this often happen in German? Are judges frequently
15 relieved of their position by the Ministry of Justice for
16 having incorrect—-
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: That is seldom. It is related to this, especially — for
18 example, to other things also — to the Holocaust denier
19 things because of the state of laws in Germany.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you know how difficult it is to remove an English judge
21 from their position?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are straying a bit. That was not
23 said defensively or anything like that! But let us move
24 on. We are slowing down.
25 MR IRVING: The point is I was about to come on to Gunter
26 Deckert. Did the same thing happen in the case of Gunter
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: You mentioned the case of Gunter Deckert, who is
4 admittedly a friend of mine. He has been in prison now
5 for seven years. What happened originally? Was he
6 acquitted by two judges?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: There was back and forth decision processes in Manheim and
8 on higher levels of various courts, because of this
9 denialist thing, and this leads to the whole issue how the
10 German, after 45 for public, deals with this kind of
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: Incitement to hatred?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And hatred and insult.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Defaming the memory of the dead?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Insult of dead people, defamation, right. Thank you.
16 This is a very decisive, very important thing in the whole
17 debate between the judicial system and political and
18 law-making processes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: All rather unpleasant. Can you confirm that the two
20 judges in the Court of Appeal said unanimously that they
21 found that Gunter Deckert was an outstanding teacher and a
22 patriot who had done what he considered to be best for his
23 country and they acquitted him on that ground?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to see the events. I do not know.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you know what happened thereupon to those two judges,
26 Judge Ortlett and another?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Give me the evidence, to be sure.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did it not make great headlines in Germany about three or
3 four years ago when the two judges were dismissed and sent
4 to early retirement for having come up with the wrong
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: This was a decision of the Ministry of Justice in Germany
8 for the judges that come up with an undesirable verdict?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Give me the evidence. Then I can look. But now you are
10 not interested in the overall picture.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: I am interested in whether Gunter Deckert is somebody of
12 with whose friendship one can be comfortable, namely
13 somebody who has been acquitted by two judges before they
14 themselves are penalised, or whether in fact he is the
15 kind of neo-Nazi extremist that is of interest in this
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the point that the Professor has made
18 is that he was leader of the NPD from 1991 to 1995.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, we will come on to the character of the
20 NPD in the course of the more regular cross-examination on
21 the basis of his report, but I was looking at the person
22 of Dr Gunter Deckert himself, which was touched upon in
23 the little preview given by Mr Rampton this morning.
24 Mr Rampton took you briefly through the matter of whether
25 the Jews had themselves to blame. I do not want to dwell
26 on that in great detail because it is not a part of your
1 expert report, but in fact it is a matter which has caused
2 I think, inflamed passions here in the courtroom. I was
3 going to ask you if, in your answers, you would agree
4 there is a difference between something being explicable
5 and something being excusable? If I can put it in a
6 totally non-Jewish context, I can say that what happened
7 to Dresden was explicable, but not excusable?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I understand the differentiation you are opting to do with
9 these two words.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You understand there is a difference? Can you say
11 that perhaps what happened to the Jews in the Baltic
12 states was explicable but of course not in the least bit
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think this is done in the court procedures with various
15 historians, and I am not an expert on that. With respect
16 to the prejudices against Jews, I have to say that, if the
17 dimension of explicability and excusability comes
18 together, are linked, then we get a problem. I would say
19 that some of the statements you made, for example, and are
20 made, generally spoken, of those who are against Jewry,
21 who are anti-Semites, exactly make this problem, that
22 these persons say, OK, they are the disliked, it is caused
23 by them, so they have a kind of partial or full guilt of
24 what happened with them, and this is at the core of a
25 very, very intense anti-Semitism, at the time in the 30s,
26 and again in the 90s, throughout to this century.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: You have read all my diaries, have you not?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not all. No, not possible.
Section 125.6 to 157.4
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: They have been made available to you. Have you found any
4 examples of anti-Semitism in my diaries that you can
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not in the diaries, so far as I recall. Maybe there are
7 some exceptions, but it is not dominant.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: By anti-Semitism, of course, we are not referring just to
9 somebody saying a critical remark about a Jew in
10 particular, or about a particular group, we are talking
11 about a visceral unreasoning blind hatred?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, and I was here in the courtroom when Richard
13 Rampton asked you about a bundle of quotations of speeches
14 and statements and interviews that you gave. My personal
15 judgment was he quoted racist and anti-Semitic statements,
16 a lot of them, so I was really shocked at that minute in
17 the courtroom.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: We are all shocked. I was shocked too but of course, when
19 you put things in these contexts sometimes, the shock
20 factor diminishes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I add —-
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not going to stop you —
23 forgive me, Professor.
24 MR IRVING: I have his report now open, my Lord.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It just seems to me that, in a way, I know
26 what the Defendants rely on and it is for me to make up my
1 mind whether the charge of anti-Semitism —-
2 MR IRVING: As soon as the witness used the words “in his
3 judgment” I could hear bristling coming from the bench.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Anyway, you have said you are going to
5 his report, and I think that is a good thing.
6 MR IRVING: I want to ask you a few general questions first.
7 The first question is that it is quite obvious from your
8 expert report, Professor Funke, that you do not like
9 right-wingers, do you?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am asked to define right-wing extremism, and to do
11 research how far you are connected with them, or said
12 extremist views. That was my duty.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, I think it is a fair question,
14 though. He is asking you really your own personal
15 opinion. I think that is legitimate.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: OK, but I have to separate it with respect to the report.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Of course, but I think he is entitled to ask the question
18 even so.
19 MR IRVING: I can say straightaway that I do not think he is
20 biased, my Lord. There is certainly no bias here that
21 I would detect.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you are not entitled to ask the
23 question. The only relevance to the question was to
24 suggest that he is biased. If you are not suggesting
25 that, then you do not need to ask the question. I think
26 that must be right. Tell me if I am wrong.
1 MR IRVING: How far right of centre does this dislike start?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: How far right of centre line would this dislike of the
4 right-wingers start? It would have to be very extreme
5 right-wing before Professor Funke starts disliking him, or
6 Mrs Thatcherish, or Helmut Kohlish?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The problem is the same your Lordship raised, so I am a
8 bit in a problem.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I try and clarify it because maybe I have
10 not understood Mr Irving correctly. Professor Funke’s
11 personal political position seems to me to be relevant if
12 and only if you are making the suggestion that he has been
13 influenced in his report by his own political leanings.
14 MR IRVING: If I can put —-
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are suggesting that, then I understand
16 the line of questions. If you are not —-
17 MR IRVING: I am. Would I be right, Professor, in suggesting
18 that your report can be summarized under the title of a
19 hostile view of the right-wing as viewed from the far
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I cannot agree. What I did, if I may answer in two or
22 three sentences, is to refer to the state of research, and
23 to the state of social sciences and to the definitions of
24 the offices for the protection of the constitution, where
25 right-wing extremism is defined. You could read it and it
26 was a kind of sober account, to my judgment. Then
1 I looked through these various developments and political
2 organizations through the course of the Federal Republic
3 from 45 onwards to the early ’90s, and especially for that
4 period that is of interest for the court.
5 So this is the layer and the criteria of this
6 definition I set out in the first pages. It is related to
7 how far these right-wing extremists attacking the core of
8 the institutions of the liberal democracy of the 45 period
9 of Federal Republic, how far they are striving, acting,
10 going for authoritarian state, how far this is linked with
11 anti-Semitism, is this linked with foreign hatred, and
12 within the right-wing extremism how far it is clear cut
13 for the re-establishment, or the establishment, to put it
14 differently, of a pure Aryan race based state. So a
15 Fuhrerstadt and so forth. These are the definitions that
16 are laid out in the social sciences, and you may say these
17 social sciences I quote are hostile to whatever.
18 MR IRVING: Yes. That takes me to my next question which is,
19 if I have understood your report correctly, your major
20 basis for your statements, apart from my own discovery,
21 are either the reports of the office for the protection of
22 the constitution, which you describe as the OPC, or the
23 consensus of opinion of social scientists, if I put it
24 like that. You refer to the opinions of the social
25 sciences. So we are up against now the consensus problem,
26 that is all you social scientists who are saying
1 right-wing extremism is that, plus the opinion of the
2 government security agency, and you rely on that
3 definition, do you, of right-wing extremism?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I put it my way.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Those are the two sources?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is a kind of distorting of my presentation of the first
7 20 pages.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: I am going to be asking you in a minute to look at the
9 offices of the protection of the constitution, and what
10 kind of body it is, but I want to take you through one or
11 two other matters first. First of all, a simple question
12 that I have asked all the other witnesses. Are you under
13 any kind of contract to Yad Vashem? Do you owe them any
14 kind of money? Do you have any kind of outstanding
15 obligations to them at all?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To Yad Vashem?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would like, but I have not.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: On page 6 of your report — we are actually digging into
20 it now — first line, Hajo Funke (that is you) has written
21 a book or an article called “The Republicans” in a book
22 called “The Brown Danger”. That is a reference to the
23 Nazis, is it not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You can say so, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Does not the title “The Brown Danger” imply that it is a
26 kind of a left wing book, a left wing look at things?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, let us press on. I do not
2 think that is an appropriate question.
3 MR IRVING: You have also written an article on Martin Walser
4 and Ignatz Bubis in the General Jewish Weekly, the
5 Allgemeine Judische Wochenzeitung?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: What was the problem about Martin Walser and Ignatz Bubis,
8 if you can summarize it in three lines? Martin Walser is
9 a German novelist, a very famous novelist, is he?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did he find fault with something about Ignatz Bubis?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe, if it is of value for —-
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it really is helpful, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Not helpful? Right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a question of priorities really, is it
16 not? I think you have to tackle the —-
17 MR IRVING: The people, yes. If you look now at the second
18 paragraph from the bottom which you have numbered 14, we
19 have something here about Ewald Althans.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: You say that a man called Althans sells and distributes
22 books, videos and cassettes of mine. Now, as of today,
23 1,430 shops deal directly with me, selling my books,
24 videos and cassettes, and large numbers of major
25 distribution companies do, too. So do you rely very
26 heavily on the fact that this man Althans sold books of
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It is in the context of your interaction with Ewald
3 Althans. It is not only this kind of selling.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: You do not attach much importance that he was a book
5 seller. In paragraph 15, the next paragraph, you refer to
6 the fact that I have been deported from Austria, and you
7 make something of that. I do not blame you. That was
8 June 26th 1984, was it not?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, so far as I recall.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: That I was complemented out of the country, as they say.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes. You were then in November ’89 and you had to leave.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we remain with the 1984 one?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell the court what was the role of the Austrian
15 Minister of the Interior, Karl Blecher, in that? Did he
16 do that personally?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know exactly. I read it, but it did not go into
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you know the role of the Austrian documentation archive
20 of the Wiedestant in securing my deportation, of the
21 resistance archive?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I know the archive, but I do not know the role.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you characterize this Austrian resistance archive,
24 what its politics are? Has it got strong communist
25 leanings? Is it known as a communist body?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask you to look at the first item in the bundle of
2 documents I gave you? It is a letter from me to The Times
3 dated July 11th 1986.
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Page 1.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I complaining to The Times that, having reported my
6 deportation from Austria, they have not reported with one
7 line the fact that the deportation has been ruled illegal
8 and the Minister has been ordered to pay compensation?
9 You will see on the following page The Times item that
10 reports this little victory.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems so.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: The final paragraph of page 3, The Times item, says: “The
13 spokesman for the Ministry of Justice said Mr Irving will
14 be bringing a case for wrongful arrest against the
15 officials involved later this year”. So it is not just as
16 cut and dried as you said, is it, deported from Austria?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Just it occurred and so I refer to it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: It occurred and you refer to it. But you then say in the
19 two lines from the bottom that he is banned from entering
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, can I interrupt you again? Do
22 forgive me for doing so. I am not remotely —-
23 MR IRVING: Interested.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: “Impressed” is the word I was going to use,
25 or will be influenced by the fact that you have been
26 banned and deported from these various countries. It
1 seems to me I have to make up my own mind.
2 MR IRVING: It very marginally goes to the accuracy of this
4 MR RAMPTON: No. Anyway, Mr Irving was reading from the
5 pleadings and not from Professor Funke’s report. I make
6 no capital out of the fact that he is banned. Your
7 Lordship is obliged as a matter of comity not to comment
8 on the deportations, but I much prefer that we make up our
9 own minds, or your Lordship makes up your own mind, in
10 this court whether Mr Irving deserved to be banned, which
11 is quite a separate question.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is entirely the way I intend to approach
13 it. I can see you resent it, but I think you can forget
14 about it, or forget about them, the deportations, for the
15 purposes of this case.
16 MR IRVING: I will say in one line what I would have said about
17 Australia and Canada, my Lord. Banned from Australia is
18 because the labour Prime Minister said I was a bad
19 character. They changed the immigration law to make it
20 possible. Banned from Canada was because of a technical
21 infringement of the Immigration Act. It was nothing to do
22 with the Holocaust denial views. That was what I had
23 hoped to elicits in this particular piece of
25 In paragraph 1.3.2, on page 9, five lines from
26 the bottom, you suggest that my diaries have been
1 sanitized for other readers. This is quite a serious
2 suggestion to make in view of the fact that the diaries
3 are before the court. What justification do you have for
4 the allegation that I sanitized the diaries, 20 million
5 words of them, before making them available to the court?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Of course, this is a judgment, or a value statement, an
7 assessment. There are important phases I did not see,
8 I mean periods of time I did not see. Maybe you did not
9 put something in your diary, and of course, and this is
10 the main point, the things we figured out by other sources
11 with respect to the letter and to the events are not
12 stated there as intense as private things that I am not
13 interested in. So I had to read and make up my own mind
14 by other sources. So in that sense it gives not a full
15 picture of your interaction so far as they are important
16 for the case that is at stake in the court.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I see whether there is a misunderstanding
18 because there may be. Are you, by the use of the
19 word “sanitized”, suggesting that Mr Irving has
20 manipulated or redacted, and I am not sure what the
21 redacted is, the diaries? “Redact” is a very curious
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would say of course all diaries are redacted in the mind
24 of the people and, with respect to what is at stake here,
25 they are of course, I would say, redacted. Look at the
26 Halle event, so you see a full scale different picture.
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I follow that. What I am trying to get at, and I cannot
2 quite think of the right term, is are you suggesting that
3 Mr Irving has deliberately altered the diaries after the
4 event in order to present a different picture from what
5 would originally have been given?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I did not say this.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that perhaps was a misunderstanding.
8 MR IRVING: I could not let that pass, my Lord. I had to draw
9 attention to it, and also the following phrase that I have
10 to draw attention to is four lines from the bottom: “As
11 will be set out below important passages in Irving’s
12 diaries have not been released to the defence”. What
13 basis do you have for making that allegation that implies
14 that I have withheld documents on discovery?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It implies that you did your diary, and all of a sudden
16 interrupted your diary. Because of this assumption, there
17 are left out very interesting phases in the course of your
18 activities in Germany and Austria. In Germany.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: You do accept that the way either you have expressed
20 yourself or the way it has been translated into English,
21 it gives the impression that I have had these pages of
22 diaries and that I have taken them out of the file.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot say this.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: I have said I am not going to give them to the defence
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I cannot say this. I cannot say that you did
1 something deliberately against —-
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: Because that would actually be a contempt of court and, if
3 I was to do that, I would be culpable.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not suggested.
5 MR IRVING: Not suggested. On the following page, two lines
6 down, you make the same suspicion that I have not
7 disclosed crucial speeches. Are you just saying again
8 that I did not transcribe them, or that I did transcribe
9 them, or I did have tapes and did not make them available
10 to the lawyers? It is the same question.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again, it is not a deliberate assumption, assumption of
12 deliberativeness, that it was done deliberately. I cannot
13 say this because I have no proof of it, so I will not.
14 But, of course, there are crucial speeches not there. One
15 of them we will get in the next hour or so.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, because, of course, if I had edited the diaries or
17 the speeches, then I would have taken out the little
18 racist ditty that Mr Rampton thinks I should be horse
19 whipped for.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not suggested you have doctored them.
21 MR IRVING: You refer in paragraph 1.3.3, which is page 10, and
22 I think this is a useful place to take it on, to the
23 German Office for the Protection of the Constitution,
24 which has been busy monitoring extremist organizations, as
25 you describe. Now, can you explain to the court what the
26 structure of the OPC is? There is an overall Federal
1 body, is there not?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: And each of provinces has its own provincial OPC. Is it a
4 political body?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is a state institution on the Federal level and on
6 the provincial or state level the like. They have their
7 duty, according to the constitutional law and to various
8 laws that were given by the parliament, to observe
9 extremism of my kind, to monitor, and this is the main
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but it is a body that in each case, both at Federal
12 level and at provincial level, is subordinated to the
13 Minister of the Interior, who is a political animal, is he
14 not? He has the say?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have to reiterate what I said. It is not a political
16 body. They have to stick to the rules. I do not know, it
17 goes with the idea, and to a degree realized idea,
18 that state officials stick to the rules, stick to the
19 laws, and are not politicisable.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am wondering whether this is not
21 in a way a bit similar to courts in foreign countries
22 making decisions that you be deported and banned and so
23 on. I do not think I am really very concerned, am I, with
24 the views or activities of the OPC?
25 MR IRVING: You are, my Lord, if I may respectfully say so,
26 because much of his report depends on the reports provided
1 by the OPCs. He quotes them extensively as though they
2 are the word of God. If I can establish to the court’s
3 satisfaction that the OPCs are political animals created,
4 run and generated as propaganda instruments by the
5 government agencies and the government ministers
6 concerned, which is why they never criticise the activity
7 of the established parties, even when they are
8 unconstitutional, and demonstrably so, then this would
9 devalue whatever these people have to say about
10 unfortunate people who come under their magnifying glass.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I suppose that is right.
12 MR IRVING: Let me just put to you, Professor Funke, a decision
13 of the constitutional court in Germany, that, when the OPC
14 ruled that a party was right-wing radical or right-wing
15 extreme, or was an enemy of freedom, and I will give you
16 the German in a moment, and a danger for the liberal
17 democratic basic order, then this was a value judgment
18 which the Federal Minister of the Interior was uttering in
19 pursuance of his constitutional duty to protect the
20 liberal democratic basic order. I will say it to you in
21 German now (German read from document not provided). In
22 other words, this is a statement of the Supreme Court in
23 Karlsruhe, which states that it is purely the opinion of
24 the minister when he decides that a party is right-wing
25 extreme or not.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Can I see it?
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: It gives the actual source. I have highlighted it in
2 yellow for you. The footnote is the source.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Thank you.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: The point is that such statements defining people as
5 right-wing extreme are the opinion of the minister, a
6 value judgment and not a statement of fact.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Things are a bit more complicated. That is why I do not
8 know, this is also important for this context, I do not
9 know the context of what is said here. So there are
10 different levels of decision-making processes of the
11 BundesVerfassungsgerichte, the highest court in Germany.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I really do feel, I am sorry again to
13 interrupt you, Professor Funke, this is not going to
14 help. We are getting terribly —-
15 MR IRVING: Into detail.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, on the contrary. I think what counts is
17 really what these individuals and parties have said and
18 done. I take your point, which is why I did not stop you,
19 that the views expressed by the OPC probably do not count
20 for a huge amount, but I do not think we want to go into a
21 detailed analysis of what the German Supreme Court has
22 said about the way in which the OPC performs its
23 function. That is what I am really getting at.
24 MR IRVING: I would hope that you would attach more value to
25 the opinion of the German Supreme Court than to myself in
26 this matter.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that really either in a sense
2 is particularly material. That is no criticism,
3 obviously, of either of you.
4 MR IRVING: As long as your Lordship bears this in mind when we
5 come to judgments on these bodies and people uttered by
6 the OPCs and I may remind you of it.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am more interested in Professor Funke’s own
8 view rather than a reflection of somebody else’s.
9 MR IRVING: (To the witness): Professor Funke, lower down on
10 page 10, paragraph 1.3.4, you say that some of your
11 sources are what I would consider anti-fascist?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is a very interesting point.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, briefly, please?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, briefly. I had to rely for the insider report that
15 was done after the Michael Schmidt film on a source that
16 was given by an anti-fascist so-called, self-described
17 anti-fascist group, and that is because these groups, and
18 I met them personally to be sure that I get the data
19 right, these groups are near to this right-wing extremist
20 scenery. So, in a given moment, for a special question,
21 I had, for example, to identify one of these persons,
22 I had to go to these sources, but I never, by each person
23 are restrained to these sources. So I checked them double
24 or triple to make a good judgment.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26 MR IRVING: So there are occasions when you can use tainted
1 sources, am I right, and still establish the truth using
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not say that they are tainted sources as sources.
4 They are very valid and I can prove it ditch by ditch or
5 centimetre by centimetre.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, if you go to page 12 where we have the OPC defining
7 what it means by the word “extremist”?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 2.6?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]: This is the Office for the Protection of the Constitution
12 “defines as extremist all endeavours aimed at abusing,
13 fully or in part, constitutional law and all efforts to
14 replace it with a totalitarian nationalistic system”.
15 Now, this is your own words, and I am going to have to ask
16 you when we come to these various people and figures and
17 organisations whether they fit that criterion; somebody
18 like Ewald Althans, was he trying to overthrow
19 constitutional law and replace with a totalitarian system,
20 in your view?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As joining a neo-Nazi Party — a neo-Nazi grouping, of
22 course, of course.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is the core of it. I mean, read the text of Michael
25 Kuhnen. I quote at length about the second revolution.
26 It is the second revolution in the course of the Nazi
1 groupings around strasse, and he rephrased it a bit and
2 even sharpened it, so saying that Hitler is the hero of
3 the Aryan race and so forth. So this is something.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is the PDS an extremist body in the opinion of the OPC?
5 What is the PDS?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The PDS is a party that came out of the former Communist
7 SED, changed the name, changed by the course of the last
8 10 years parts of the ideas, parts of the electorate,
9 parts of the membership, and I would describe this
10 grouping, this party, as a kind of post socialistic,
11 partially authoritarian sticking to the democratic liberal
12 rules party. So it is a mixture, very interesting to
13 observe but not by the OPC observed party.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Why does the OPC not scrutinize this left wing Communist
15 party successor then which appears to fulfil the criteria?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, no, this is debated, so this is a kind of tricky
17 decision they have to make, if the dominant groupings in
18 the party in the PDS really can be described as
19 anti-constitutional or not. So this is debated, and there
20 are sources that say that this is not the case and other
21 sources say it is the case.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: It appears to be a bit elastic then, the way they define
23 the word “extremist”?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In that sense they have to because it is clear from the
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think, honestly, we have taken this far
1 enough. We are not going to get into examinations of
2 totalitarian socialism. We are dealing with totalitarian
4 MR IRVING: If we now look back at the right-wing end of the
5 spectrum, again the Republicans, Franz Schonhuber’s Party,
6 you have linked me with them, have you not?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You had some connections, some interactions, in the early
8 phase of ’89 and follows with them.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Where they defined by the OPC as extremist?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: To a degree, it depends again because this again is a case
11 not identical with the PDS, on the other side, but after a
12 period of discussions and looking through the internal
13 structure and ideologies of the Party, they decided to a
14 degree to observe them, but, compared to the other
15 parties, the NPD and the DVU, it is, you know, of lower
16 intensity because of the kind of vague
17 self-definition —-
18 Q. [Mr Irving]: Before we —-
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — of the Party.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Before we leave the Republicans, is it right, in fact,
21 that the Republicans fought a High Court battle in the
22 Supreme Court against the Office of Protection of the
23 Constitution and had the watchdogs taken off them, if
24 I can put it like that?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is only the case for one State.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: For one State?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: For Berlin.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not know that. So effectively —-
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And maybe some other States. I know it from Berlin, but
4 it is not true for the Federal level.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you saying that the Republicans are extremists or
6 not? Are you still saying they are extremists in the
7 meaning —-
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I personally, in my judgment, because I did a piece on
9 that, I would say they are extremists because of the
10 anti-Semitic rhetoric of especially the then, the then,
11 leader of the Party, Franz Schonhuber, and the furious
12 hatred against foreigners he spread and leanings to
13 authoritarian state likewise. So I can go into detail if
14 it is necessary.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: Then this brings up again your own political opinion,
16 though, if you state that your personal view of Schonhuber
17 or your personal view of the Republicans —-
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it is a personal scientific opinion based on an
19 analysis of this party at length. My personal views are
20 not of interest except your Lordship are interested in
21 that, so I, of course, would be able to say something
22 about my personal opinions.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Even the OPC has been ordered to take off the watchdogs in
24 Berlin anyway, then this implies that they —-
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I said —-
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: — are very borderline.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had that —-
2 MR IRVING: They are very borderline, are they?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: — and we are not spending long on the OPC,
4 I hope?
5 MR IRVING: I am using them as a north, a kind of pole star to
6 steer the court by. What entitles you to describe the
7 German people’s union as being a right-wing extremist
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You mean DVU?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, the DVU. Have you ever read their manifesto, so to
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I read a bunch of papers of them.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are they anti-Semitic?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I have even the newspapers of these days here, but maybe
15 it is not of interest —-
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we deal with the manifestos first? Are there
17 manifestos, did they have a Holocaust denial element?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I referred to the Holocaust denial publications of the
19 central paper, newspaper, of this Party, the Deutche
20 [German] where at length over months the [German]
21 presentation of the hoax of the 20th century was
22 distributed to the people who were reading this Party
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: A Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, to a degree, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: Has the DVU ever been prosecuted for Holocaust denial or
1 have any of its newspapers ever been prosecuted for
2 Holocaust denial, and it would be a useful standard to
3 judge by, would it not?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think they could have done but they did not.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: The answer is no?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is up to the authorities to do if there is no
7 [German] —-
8 THE INTERPRETER: If there is no one claiming, no one bringing
9 a court case.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If there is no one claiming this case to the court, like
11 as long as there is no institution claiming the DVU was an
12 unlegal party, illegal party, so it is formally legal, but
13 because of the content and of the strategy, according to
14 the OPC and to the social sciences right-wing extremist.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: We are dealing with the Holocaust denial element at
16 present. I did not quite understand your answer. Are you
17 saying that nobody prosecuted them for Holocaust denial
18 because nobody complained, did I understand that?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: At that period.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: But you know as well as I do, do you not, Professor Funke,
21 that under German law, as it relates to Holocaust denial,
22 specifically nobody has to complain? The Public
23 Prosecutor can start a prosecution even without a
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was in the ’70s and it was not in the centre of
26 interest and public interest is important, as you know,
1 familiar with the liberal democracy.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: But at all material times for this case they have not been
3 prosecuted and at any time the Public Prosecutor could
4 have prosecuted the DVU if they had engaged in Holocaust
5 denial within the meaning of the law?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They could have, yes, yes, they could have, definitely.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and the same goes for anti-Semitism. Have they ever
8 been prosecuted for anti-Semitic remarks?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I am not sure —-
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: In any of their publications?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — that there are not some cases, so I have to restrict
12 my knowledge, my answering on the — restrict on the
13 knowledge of — restrict to the knowledge I have about
14 this kind of relation between the Party and the judicial
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: I have to say the correct answer is not to your knowledge
17 they have not been prosecuted?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not to your knowledge, thank you.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 15, the first two or three lines?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 15?
21 MR IRVING: Page 15, the first two or three lines. You are
22 saying: “Right-wing extremism is often connected with an
23 ideology and/or a practical tendency towards violence,
24 militancy and terror”. In calling me a right-wing
25 extremist, are you saying that I am a violent, militant
26 and terrorizing person, is that what you are trying
1 to —-
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, you have a militant rhetoric with respect to Jews.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: With respect to Jews?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: And with respect to so-called other races, but you are
5 not, you did not, you did not say violent things so far
6 I saw it or, you know, applausing violence or instigating
7 that, but you joined groups who, like the neo-Nazi groups,
8 I said, I described before the break that are utterly for
9 violent acts to get the second revolution done.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: If these groups that you say I joined were committing
11 these illegal acts, would they not have been prosecuted or
12 declared illegal at the material times or have been
13 declared illegal?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: If these groups that you say that I joined had been
16 committing these illegal acts under German law, would they
17 not have been prosecuted or put out of business?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: They are, they were.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: At the time I allegedly joined them?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was nearly in the same time, so let us talk about the
21 NO invitation, the National Offensive invitation in ’92,
22 of Swerzik, we had it. These, the groups around the
23 Michael Kuhnen crew, or let us say the
24 Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, were banned to a degree in the
25 same year. So Deutsche Alternative, National Offensive,
26 others, were banned because of the instigation of racial
1 hatred and instigation of violence against foreigners.
2 This was the reason why they were banned.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: I have to hold you to this now because the question I have
4 to ask you is at the time I spoke, if I spoke to any of
5 the bodies that you have mentioned, were they banned or
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not, of course.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and how could I have anticipated that at some time in
9 the future in a country where there had been no bans,
10 these bodies that I have been speaking to would suddenly
11 find themselves banned?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: As an intelligent man who knows Germany, you could have
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Oh, yes. Can I take you back to the previous remark which
15 I cannot allow it to go unchallenged where you say that
16 I used militant language against the Jews, do you have any
17 particular passage in mind or was this a throw-away line
18 rather like the —-
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, I do not do this throw-away lines. We have 40 pages
20 during the —-
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are back now to where we were about 25
22 minutes ago.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, but —-
24 MR IRVING: Very well.
25 MR RAMPTON: May I intervene? I think what Professor Funke is
26 trying to say is that he has read my cross-examination of
1 Mr Irving on that topic.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I was going to say the same thing
3 in a slightly different way. We have got the allegedly
4 anti-Semitic speeches and so on that you made. Professor
5 Funke, no doubt, could give evidence about it, but I
6 just do not think it is a worthwhile use of the court’s
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, in my ignorance, I thought it important
9 not to allow that remark to go unchallenged in case
10 Mr Rampton a week from now says, “This was stated and he
11 did not challenge it”.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If he did, I would not listen to him.
13 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, would you look at paragraph 2.2.5,
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may say so, Mr Irving, whilst I am
16 interrupting again and apologies for doing so.
17 MR IRVING: Slow progress?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all very — not much, I am bound to
19 say. Again we are spending a lot of time on what we might
20 call the preliminaries, whereas I read this report when he
21 really is getting down to make the case he seeks to make
22 against you and your connections with these various
23 right-wing extremists, that really comes a good deal
24 further on and —-
25 MR IRVING: Well, he is throwing in names the whole time.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know he is and we have had this sort of
1 problem before, but what I would find helpful is if you
2 could cross-examine about the specific instances that are
3 relied on of your being associated with individuals who he
4 treats as right-wing extremists or with organizations, and
5 that comes really from my reading as from about 38
7 MR IRVING: Well, I would say it comes from 19 onwards, my
8 Lord, which is the right-wing extremist DVU.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I can stop you because all of
10 this material is there.
11 MR IRVING: At 3.1.1 you say that Mr Irving had spoken to
12 bodies and organizations like banks, bookshops, student
13 fraternities, the US Army Corps and so on. You are aware
14 that I also spoke at universities like Harvard, Cambridge,
15 Oxford and Bonn and Geeson and Marburg, are you?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I recall Bonn, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: At 3.1.2 you criticise publishers that I deal with as
18 publishing former NS, in other words National Socialist
19 figures, and suggest that makes them right-wing
20 extremists. Are you not familiar with the publishers who
21 publish the memoirs of Albert Spear, who is another top
22 Nazi? Does that make them right wing extremists? What is
23 the special chemical element that turns a publisher into a
24 right-wing extremist?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Good question. It is again that they did it by a special
26 purpose, to present the right-wing extremist cause, as the
1 GFP, the Society for Free Communication. That is part of
2 the network after 45, after the ban of the clear cut
3 neo-national Socialist party of Remer. Then this
4 networking was a kind of replacement in the early 60s with
5 Gert Sudholt and the Deutsche Kulturwerk and all this
6 groupings Dietmar Munier of the Arndt-Verlag. So they
7 tried to make the cause, although the whole political
8 scenery is not fostering these kinds of groupings.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Would they not have been prosecuted if they had been
10 publishing politically incorrect materials or illegal
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, and this is the case for some of them at least.
13 I value it. It is the case, if the things are very, very
14 intense, repeatedly, and going to the direction of
15 hardcore right-wing extremist or neo-Nazi extremism or are
16 related to violence, and of course the Holocaust denial,
17 you know, groupings. These are the four dimensions in
18 which official institutions intervene more than in other
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: The Germans clamp down quite a bit on publishing, do they
21 not? They burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
22 they not?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: The Germans burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
25 they not?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I cannot answer this question. You allude to the burning
1 of the books in 33.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: You have an index, do you not, of banned books in Germany?
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well Mr Irving —-.
4 MR IRVING: The follow up question was, to your knowledge, have
5 any of my books ever been banned in Germany on any of the
6 indexes or lists? The answer is no, right?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. At paragraph 3.2.1 you now bring in the Socialist
9 Reich Party. Do you allege that I had any contacts with
10 this Socialist Reich Party?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: Then why do you mention it?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No. If I may say so, you misread it. I just wanted to
14 give an overview for the court that there was something,
15 as I did now to the court verbatim, that there are groups
16 in the early 50s of a special importance. Then it went
17 down to a degree and it came in the mid or late 80s more
18 to the fore and even was perceived as the danger for some
19 liberal democracy basics. So this was an overview, and it
20 does not mean, and I did not say, that you are related to
21 these groups. You are were 14 years old when the group
22 was banned, so there is no way.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: This is a report on my extremist activities so-called.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is a misreading. If it is mistaken, then I have to
25 say, no, you as a 14 years old boy was not interacting
26 with the then banned SRP.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we must get on. We are really
2 make no progress at all.
3 MR IRVING: Am going to ask a general question. In other
4 words, you do mention an awful lot of names in this report
5 without my having had any contact with them whatsoever, is
6 that right? It is a total kaleidoscope of German politics
7 of the last half century and I have had no contact with
8 any of those names.
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I need not defend my report.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer to that is yes. When
11 I read it, which was a long time ago now, I got the
12 impression that there was an awful lot of initials and
13 names of organisations that I am not in the end going to
14 have to be concerned with. Is that fair?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I disagree.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was hoping you would agree.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: But to make a point.
18 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship might like to look at it, or think
19 about looking at it, in the way that I do. I am
20 principally concerned obviously with Mr Irving’s immediate
21 and intimate contacts, who organizes the meeting, what is
22 said at those meetings in particular by Mr Irving and
23 those immediate contacts. However, those immediate
24 contacts do have a genealogy, and that, it seems to
25 me, having read the report again, is how the names, what
26 I might call the outer circle of names, come into the
1 picture. Whether they matter very much at the end of it
2 all is a separate question.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Your Lordship, can I say something to you both?
4 MR RAMPTON: Include me as well.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Please do.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I thought I did a favour to the court and to the debate to
7 try to bring this genealogy, to get a sense of this
8 different political culture after 45. They have to renew
9 a democracy, then they have to fight those who tried to go
10 back. So I have to at least mention them, and especially
11 then these persons often are the same that came to the
12 fore in the late 80s, in the case of the SNP with respect
13 to the founder Remer. Then I thought, OK, it is too many
14 names for all of you, for all three of you, so to speak,
15 and I did a short paper of 22 pages. I delivered it the
16 other week to the solicitors, and I hope you will get it
17 and you have it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As a matter of fact, I have not got it.
19 MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did mention it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you did.
21 MR RAMPTON: I have got it. If, when this evidence is
22 finished, your Lordship would like it, it is a convenient
23 summary, but we frankly took the view that your Lordship
24 is so already burdened with paper that, if we gave another
25 23 pages summarizing what is already in the report, it
26 might not go down all that well.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we see when the evidence is finished?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Your Lordship I tried to minimize the names to a degree
3 that I, from my social science perspective, said it is
4 unbearable, just to make the point.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So it is a kind of —-
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try and be practical about it.
8 Mr Irving, I think what Professor Funke is saying is that
9 he is a social scientist. He therefore felt that he had
10 an obligation in a way to explain really the political
11 pressures and counter pressures that have been operating
12 in Germany really ever since the end of the war.
13 MR IRVING: It is frightfully interesting, and I read it with
14 great interest.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all very interesting and it is
16 extremely scholarly, but in the end what I am concerned
17 with, and he is not really implicating you specifically in
18 that, save to the extent that the background of the
19 organizations may have some bearing on your willingness to
20 associate with them, but in the end what I am concerned
21 with is your contacts with this quite limited number of
23 MR IRVING: I agree.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I was saying to you a while back is that
25 I think you should concentrate on that, not get, if I may
26 say so, bogged down in the social science aspects of
1 Professor Funke’s report.
2 MR IRVING: I agree.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think you lose anything by taking
4 that course.
Section 157.5 to 182.10
5 MR IRVING: The risk we have, my Lord, is that we spoke
6 yesterday of the rogues gallery that we were going to
7 enter. We find ourselves in the rogues gallery with
8 thousands of little photographs and now we are being told,
9 well, ignore all these photographs, just pay attention to
10 the six down in the bottom right hand corner. I am quite
11 happy to do that as long as Mr Rampton does not later on
12 say that Mr Irving has ignored all these other gangsters.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to take the Defendants’ case as
14 really in the end coming down to maybe a dozen
16 MR IRVING: Six.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who have been identified by Mr Rampton this
19 MR RAMPTON: It may be rather more than six.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I said a dozen. It may be more but they have
21 been identified and their organizations have been
22 identified, and I think, with due respect of course to
23 Professor Funke, that that is what I am concerned with and
24 that is all I am concerned with.
25 MR RAMPTON: To be fair, it is actually what the guts of the
26 report is concerned with. It is a chronological account
1 of Mr Irving’s neo-fascist contacts in Germany.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not criticising Professor Funke at
3 all, or indeed Mr Irving, but I just think that we all
4 need to focus on what matters, and not get sidetracked.
5 MR IRVING: Of course, the serious problem there for me is that
6 I do not know what dozen names Mr Rampton is thinking
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do. We heard them this morning. Indeed
9 overnight, if it would help, I suspect it would take five
10 minutes for Mr Rampton or Miss Rogers to write them out on
11 a piece of paper.
12 MR IRVING: That would be extremely helpful.
13 MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether Mr Irving is still getting
14 the daily transcript. If he is, they will be in there.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whether he is or he is not, I think it is
16 something that would not be unreasonable to invite you to
18 MR RAMPTON: I will do, but I will have to see the transcript
19 myself first because my memory is fallible.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have actually been highlighting the ones
21 that I think have been mentioned.
22 MR IRVING: Some are obvious but some are less obvious, if I
23 can put it like that.
24 MR RAMPTON: Most of them are in the index to the two bundles
25 apart from Rami and Verala that I mentioned.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are not relying on all the ones in the
1 index. There are an awful lot who have not been featured
2 at all.
3 MR RAMPTON: I do not know about that. Is that right?
4 MR IRVING: If we can strike out all but a dozen, then I am
5 sure that your Lordship would be very happy and so would
6 I. I am prepared to carry on with what I am doing at
7 present, if your Lordship would indicate where I should
8 resume the cross-examination from.
9 MR RAMPTON: Would Mr Irving just restrain his youthful
10 enthusiasm for a moment.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why do we not do it now? Can I tell you what
12 my impression is? Tell me if I have it wrong, Mr
13 Rampton. If we start at the appendix, page 140?
14 MR RAMPTON: I am probably in the wrong page.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe I am in the wrong bit. I think 140 is
17 MR RAMPTON: I see. I am sorry.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe you have a better reference.
19 MR RAMPTON: That one?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: I was going to use the two main bundles, but one
22 can start with Althans.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have highlighted the names that
24 Mr Rampton referred to this morning.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us go through them so that we all know
26 where we are. Althans, yes.
1 MR IRVING: Christophersen, yes.
2 MR RAMPTON: Yes. I will do it, if you do not mind, Mr
3 Irving. Deckert yes. Dienel, yes, although there may be
4 a tenuousness about the contact. It was one of the ones
5 I mentioned. Felderer on page 143. Rudiger Hess
6 I mentioned but I think only in passing, at the bottom of
7 that page. Gottfried Kussel in the middle of the next
9 MR IRVING: Philipp.
10 MR RAMPTON: Karl Philipp on page 145. Ernst Otto or it may be
11 Otto Ernst Remer at the bottom of 145. I do not remember
12 whether I asked about Jurgen Rieger. He was mentioned by
13 the Professor in evidence. Then we get to page 148 where
14 we find Staglich, Swierczek, Walendy, and over the page
15 the Worches. I do not think I mentioned Ingrid Weckert.
16 I am not much interested in her.
17 MR IRVING: Thomas Wulff.
18 MR RAMPTON: I did not mention him, the Professor did.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, may be quite a useful
21 MR IRVING: As long I am not penalised for not cross-examining
22 on others.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will not be.
24 MR RAMPTON: Can I say something else as well? Mr Irving is
25 not going to be penalised, or I am not going to attempt to
26 get your Lordship to penalise him, for not having put
1 this, that or the other contradiction about this, that or
2 the other figure. Where, however, the central case, as in
3 some of the historical stuff, is not dealt with, I think
4 I am entitled to make the assumption, maybe a provisional
5 assumption or a rebuttable assumption, that the case is
6 not really contested. For example, Mr Irving has already
7 said that he accepts that he had a long, or whatever the
8 word is, association with Althans and that Gunter Deckert
9 was a friend of his. Now, if there is total silence, for
10 example, in relation to the Worches, then I shall draw
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree with that and I think, Mr Irving,
13 that you can take it that I will only concern myself with
14 the alleged association you have with the individuals
15 whose names we have just gone through, and with any
16 organizations which it can be shown by the Defendants
17 those individuals are directly connected with.
18 MR IRVING: I was about to mention the organizations, my Lord,
19 because we have looked at individuals, but I am also
20 accused of associating with organisations, both in Germany
21 and elsewhere.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only through these individuals, I think it is
23 fair to say.
24 MR RAMPTON: And this is Germany only at the moment. The other
25 people that have come have drifted in through, well,
26 Zundel is actually a bit more than the side of the
1 picture; other people have come from France, Spain,
2 Austria and America, and they of course do count in their
3 own landscaped.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are only about four altogether.
5 MR RAMPTON: But Zundel is separate. He must not be
6 forgotten. He after all was the cause of Mr Leuchter’s
7 martyrdom in Toronto.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think a list would be helpful. We have it
9 on the transcript, Mr Rampton, at some stage, in fact
10 I think overnight, if you would, a list of those things,
11 plus any non-Germans.
12 MR RAMPTON: All right.
13 MR IRVING: I will cross-examine just on those tomorrow, my
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: I do not think, well, I do not know. I do not say
17 any more about that at the moment. We will see.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, certainly. I am encouraging you I think
19 to make a start, if you would, this evening.
20 MR IRVING: Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have a bit more time.
22 MR RAMPTON: If Mr Irving is in difficulty, there are some
23 things I should like to mention while he finds his place,
24 as it were. I now have the disk of the Eichmann memoirs,
25 which I will hand to Mr Irving at the close of play, but
26 on this condition for the time being. The copyright in
1 this version belongs to the Israeli Government. They have
2 consented that it should be used for the purposes of this
3 case, but rather like the daily transcripts it cannot go
4 on to Mr Irving’s website.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it is a question of copyright
6 so far as I am concerned. It is more a question of the
7 implied obligation in relation to —-
8 MR RAMPTON: I have given them an undertaking personally that
9 it will not be used for any purpose —-
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but I think it is a confidentiality
11 point so far as these court proceedings are concerned, and
12 not a copyright point.
13 MR RAMPTON: Except that they have got the copyright on these.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure they have, but I am not so much
15 concerned with that as with the fact you are disclosing it
16 and it this is therefore subject to the implied
18 MR RAMPTON: Not to use it for any other purpose.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: At all events, until it is used.
20 MR RAMPTON: It will become public knowledge in due course, in
21 which case it can go on anybody’s website, but for the
22 present — there are terrible lawyer words about
23 undertakings being muttered in my ear.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is implied undertaking.
25 MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I am sure you know.
1 MR IRVING: The implied undertaking evaporates. Once it has
2 been mentioned in open court, my Lord, the implied
3 undertaking is destroyed.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wondered whether that point would —-
5 MR RAMPTON: No. No, that is completely wrong. Mr Irving’s
6 law is pretty poor in many respects and it is completely
7 wrong in this respect. The implied undertaking lasts
8 until the court has read the document or it has been read
9 in court.
10 MR IRVING: Mentioned.
11 MR RAMPTON: No.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is an argument that I am hoping I will
13 not have to resolve, because I am not sure it is quite as
14 simple as that.
15 MR RAMPTON: I will not hand it over without the undertaking.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you prepared to give me your
18 MR IRVING: I will give the undertaking not to make any
19 untoward use of it, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, not good enough. Are you prepared to
21 give me your undertaking until we can resolve this
22 question, and we can set aside a little time to argue it
23 if needs be, that you will not make use of this tape you
24 are being handed otherwise than for the purposes of these
25 proceedings and, in particular, will not put it on your
1 MR IRVING: For the purposes of this litigation, indeed, my
2 Lord, yes, I give the undertaking.
3 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much. What in fact the Israelis
4 have told us is that the version which will be made
5 available to the public will not be this electronic
6 version; it will be a printed version.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine. That can be handed over.
8 MR RAMPTON: Very well.
9 MR IRVING: Thank you.
10 MR RAMPTON: I think I am wrong about what I just said about
11 the law. My apologies to Mr Irving.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are wrong too, but I did not like
13 to say so!
14 MR IRVING: So who was right then?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you were, Mr Irving. It is an unusual
16 and rather curious position, but I think you are right.
17 MR IRVING: I have been in trouble about this before, that is
18 why I am familiar with it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, let us press on. Can you make a
20 start on what we have all agreed now is really the guts of
21 Professor Funke’s report?
22 MR IRVING: Yes. I think I am right in saying, my Lord, there
23 were actually three more names than those listed in their
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. One is Zundel. One is the Spaniard.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Verala.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
2 MR IRVING: There is Michael Kuhnen.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Kuhnen is in the list already.
4 MR IRVING: He is not in the list.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right.
6 MR IRVING: Gary Lauck.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Lauck.
8 MR RAMPTON: I did not mention Lauck, but if Lauck is important
9 let us have him.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get a list of names tomorrow
12 MR IRVING: Is Dr Frey included in the list?
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes, Dr Frey was mentioned. He is in a slightly
14 different category because he is DVU, but the Professor
15 has explained why he puts DVU in, what shall I call, a
16 slightly milder version of the radically neo-Nazi, other
18 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, Dr Frey is the Chairman of the
19 DVU, is he not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is the DVU a democratically organized body?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, not at all.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Not at all?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not at all to the gazettes, the law of the parties, that
25 includes inner party democracy, democratic procedures
26 within the party system. This is ruled by special laws
1 that are of interest in the public in these months in
2 Germany. So it is very clear what the law said, and it is
3 very clear that the DVU in its internal organization
4 failed to apply to this law.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but of course the main established political parties
6 also do not comply with a lot of the laws?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I alluded to that.
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, Chancellor Kohl has been in trouble recently, has he
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
11 MR IRVING: If I draw your attention to paragraph 3 —-
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: He is not the Chancellor any more.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Ex-chancellor. 3.2.5, you refer to the disparagement of
14 democratic institutions and persons, which is an element
15 of right-wing extremism.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 3?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 22, I am over the page. It is line 5.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Line 5.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I right in saying, and this is confirmed by paragraph
20 4.3.1 on page 46, that the DVU has fought countless
21 election battles under the normal election rules, has it
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is neither here nor there, Mr Irving.
25 Come on.
26 MR IRVING: It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary
1 means, has it?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Say it again?
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary means of
4 conducting politics?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not as the party, but in the party, as I said, there were
6 leanings to skinheads, violent skinheads, there were
7 leanings and associations and actions by DVU members to
8 this kind of violence against foreigners. There was this
9 kind of support of the Wehrsportgruppe Hofmann, a very
10 violent group in the early 80s or in the late 70s.
11 Hofmann was then fined. So not in the centre, they were
12 very cautious to circumvent any illegalising procedures.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Was politics for a time in Germany very violent when the
14 East Germans Stazi were providing funds?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know what time you are referring to.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, were there violent demonstrations in Germany which
17 required meetings to be protected?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving —-
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: What time are you referring to?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: — I thought we had agreed we were going to
21 get on to the positive case that is made against you, and
22 discussing whether there was violence in German politics
23 when the Stazi was financing it is, I think, just too
24 nebulous for the purposes of these proceedings.
25 MR IRVING: Well, the witness mentioned the use of paramilitary
26 people to protect the meetings, and that was invited by
1 that. On 3.2.24, paragraph 3.2.24, you mention my keeping
2 company with Rudel and Remer: David Irving was keeping
3 company with Nazis like Otto Ernst Remer and Hans Ulrich
4 Rudel. We are not interested in Rudel, he is not on the
5 list, but you say that I have kept company with General
6 Remer. Have you seen any documents in my private diaries
7 or elsewhere showing me keeping company with Remer?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I refer here to the data of the Schleswig-Holstein in ’82,
9 and that is it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. So you rely entirely in making that statement on a
11 report of the OPC?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: In that respect, right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Of the OPC, and his Lordship is not going to pay any
14 attention to what the OPC says. Are you aware from the
15 proceedings of this trial that I have produced a one-page
16 diary entry showing me interviewing General Remer for the
17 purpose of the Goebbels book and this was the only meeting
18 I had with him?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: If you say so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen any other entries in my diaries indicating
21 meetings with General Otto Ernst Remer, apart from
22 occasions when I have spoken and he has been one of many
23 faces in the audience? You have not seen any other
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems that this quotation of the OPC, of
26 Schleswig-Holstein, is an overstatement.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: An overstatement, yes.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I help you, Mr Irving, by saying that
3 this seems to me precisely the sort of way in which it is
4 helpful to cross-examine.
5 MR IRVING: Yes.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really intended by way of guidance.
7 MR IRVING: So, effectively, notwithstanding what we have seen
8 on the video tapes of General Remer being present at
9 meetings which I have spoken at, you would not say that
10 I have had close contacts with him?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I would not say.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. 3.2.25 when I address the DVU rally, one of Dr
13 Frey’s rallies on freedom for Rudolf Hess, you object to
14 my use of the word “martyrdom” or “martyr” for Rudolf
15 Hess? I think we can leave that. It is not really
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I can allude to this, I can explain it, if it is of
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 3.3.2, at page 32, you say the OPC report of
20 1993, you are quoting that. What year does that refer to,
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The second —-
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this one of Dr Frey’s newspapers that is being referred
24 to there?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: And it published anti-Semitic articles according to the
1 OPC report of 1993?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: A lot.
3 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Had I left Germany by that time?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: When was I deported from Germany?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: End of ’93.
7 Q. [Mr Irving]: End of 93.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You recall that?
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: It cites two examples of anti-Semitic articles. One is a
10 criticism of the Edgar Miles-Bronfman, well, I do not
11 think this is sufficiently important.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean I can read it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: 3.3.11, please?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Maybe I can just say, you know: “The German Weekly, the
15 DNZ’s sister papers in the Frey press imperium, presented
16 one Hungarian-born son of a Jewish lawyer as the ‘finance
17 guru of the world’, a master of financial speculation, who
18 through his dealings undermines the German mark, the DWZ
19 made the point that they economic recovery central Germany
20 was jeopardised by Jewish restitution claims.” So these
21 kinds of things.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: You consider that to be anti-Semitic?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, and I can prove this by going into the sentences, if
24 you want.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Paragraph 3.3.11, please, page 35. This is describing the
26 events we saw on the video, April 21st 1990.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: 3.3.11. Thank you.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: 3.3.11.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: This is the event that led to my being put in the police
5 van. You describe it as an “illegal demonstration=”. Why
6 do you call it an illegal demonstration?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It was —-
8 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you any proof that it was illegal, that there were
9 any arrests made for it? Was anybody fined for conducting
10 illegal demonstration? What I am asking you is why do you
11 call the demonstration that I was seen in illegal? You
12 have no proof, right?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: No. 3.3.12 —-
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean I can allude to that bit further. It was the
16 intervention of the police, you could see. So there were
17 some calls in the administration to say, “this goes too
18 far”, because of the whole thing, of the whole
19 conference. It went out. It was not asked for by the
20 police, institutions. So in that sense it was illegal.
21 Excuse me that I had to wait a minute to realize what it
22 was about.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me just ask you one more question and this concerns
24 the position of the police president in German life.
25 Unlike England, the police president in Germany is a
26 political appointment, is he not?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It depends.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: In each city?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No, it depends. The police president is, as I alluded to
4 before, is a Staatsbeamter.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: A Civil Servant?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Civil servant, and the civil servants, as I said, have to
7 stick to the laws and nothing else, whereas the
8 politicians can do their own cause, be it a mayor of a
9 city or so. So there is a different ruling and a
10 different structure. Of course it happens that, this is
11 in democracies like ours is the case, I do not know how it
12 is in other countries, but, you know, they appoint a
13 person of a given party or near to a given party and so
14 forth. But once the position is established they have to
15 shy away of these political affiliations and have to stick
16 to the laws.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: He is appointed by the —-
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So it does not make a point if you say it is a politicized
19 system, and so they are not, you know, whatever allowed to
20 do this or that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]: But the city administration of Munich is socialist, is it
22 not, it is left-wing?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It depended. I mean —-
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: At this material time.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So as far as I recall, yes, but there was a time when
26 there was a big debate, whatever.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I think this might be a useful time to stop.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wondered whether you did not want to get to
3 the end of paragraph 3, because that that all seems to me
4 to stick together, and then there is a rather new chapter
5 beginning at 4 or maybe you have not got any questions on
6 the remainder of paragraph 3.
7 MR IRVING: Section 3.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, section 3 is a better word.
9 MR IRVING: Yes, I have one page of questions. Page 3.3.12 or
10 paragraph 3.3.12, you refer to a leaflet put out by Ewald
11 Althans containing the phrase: “300 participants joined
12 David Irving in spontaneous demonstration to the
13 Feldherrenhalle after our event”, which is a reference to
14 that demonstration we saw on the video, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Right, no, it is — yes, right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you have any evidence that I was actually on the
17 demonstration that went to Feldherrenhalle, apart from
18 that leaflet issued by Althans?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that you did not, Mr Irving?
20 MR IRVING: I am saying I did not, yes, my Lord. In that case
21 I will put to the witness the letter from Mrs Worch which
22 is page 9. Can I ask you to look at page 9 in the
23 documents, it is either page 9 or 10.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, 9.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this a letter from Ursula Worch and her husband
26 Christian Worch written to my lawyer February 17th 1991?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving]: If I summarize it very quickly, the actual letter is two
3 pages later on page 11 probably in German. If you look at
4 the German version, if I summarize it quickly, she is
5 saying that after the end of the function in the
6 Lowenbraukeller there was a spontaneous public
7 demonstration: “We joined in that. We lost sight of Mr
8 Irving who remained in the hall”, right, “before we could
9 make a firm appointment. About an hour later, shortly
10 before the police broke up this demonstration, we met
11 Mr Irving in the street where he had been looking for us”,
12 right? So the scene we saw on the video, would that be
13 consistent with the crowd being ushered back to the hall
14 by the police who then, for some reason, started making
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean the whole thing is inconsistent. On the one hand
17 you have these letters of this couple, Worch, and of
18 course it has the function for, you know, for the lawyer
19 and so forth, and on the other hand you have the video and
20 you have the Althans presentation you just quoted. So
21 there is a lot of probability that this video is more
22 correct than the letter.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor Funke, do you remember me asking you to look at
24 the video and tell the court which way this little band of
25 forlorn stragglers was moving, being ushered across the
26 Viennastrasse and you could not tell?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: All the evidence I have by Michael Schmidt, and especially
2 Michael Schmidt who was there at the time and in his book
3 and four days long, you know, whole videos of that, this
4 is a short version we saw, I would say that in my overall
5 cautious judgment I cannot say yes to your implication.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: Since we are talking about this demonstration, I had
7 £2,000 worth of books on the book table at that function.
8 Would I have left them unattended with 800 people in the
9 hall in order to join a demonstration?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You joined this going, and all the sources I had says,
11 including Althans, that this was going to the
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you read my diary covering that particular episode?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, I read.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you read the police statements that were taken
16 describing what had happened in the file which was made
17 available by discovery?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You know, I think I did it also in the report, I read this
19 and I came to the conclusion that there are more reasons
20 for the case I state that you joined for a given period of
21 time this march.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: You think I would have just left £2,000 worth of books
23 unattended on a book table in a beer hall with 800
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I do not know. There are other possibilities to take care
26 and maybe you did and you joined. I do not know.
1 Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you remember the police statements that were made at
2 the time?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I read the things that are of interest all around this
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: But my question was, do you remember the police statements
6 that were made covering this particular event, the
7 demonstration and the reason that I was taken in and so
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think I recall, but help me.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Well, if you have not read them there is not much
11 point in my putting it to you.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I think I had.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you aware that Michael Schmidt who took the videos and
14 on whom you rely is a paid police informer?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: No.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, are you aware that this emerges from the police
17 dossier which is in my files which were provided by way of
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Michael Schmidt was not a police informer.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: Where did the police obtain the video from on the basis of
21 which they prosecuted me?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: But I have no evidence that he sided police functions, no
23 evidence whatsoever.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you read in the police dossier the words, “Michael
25 Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video
26 which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: This is a different, this a different, you know, what is
2 it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or
3 whatever integrated in this secret or police system.
4 Q. [Mr Irving]: You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that
5 in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it
6 was stated in writing that I would not talk about the
7 Holocaust in any of my talks?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have
9 had reasons. I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be,
11 possible reasons?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the
13 other is that you may depart from it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the
15 German climate, that even though neither of us intended,
16 neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it
17 would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we
18 wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was
19 not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it
20 was fixed every time in writing between us?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems —-
22 Q. [Mr Irving]: So we could not be tricked.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It seems the case.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability,
25 your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the
26 more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence
1 as you have read it?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are all agreed. It was a
5 precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and
6 indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted.
7 MR IRVING: It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can
8 I add another question as rider? Have you seen any
9 reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU
10 meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke
11 Holocaust denial?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving
13 with respect to the other activities you took at that
14 period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to
15 quote, “Hitler and Jews” thing. So this made him
16 concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving,
17 so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak
18 freely in Germany and he lost.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it
20 is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in
21 my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that,
22 that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or
23 Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned
24 me to speak at?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I recall not, no.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]: And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did
1 not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other
4 circumstances very different.
5 Q. [Mr Irving]: We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph
6 3.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a
7 main speaker for the DVU?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving]: Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was
10 speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that
11 I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: You were a star speaker used by the political party for
13 political aims.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]: Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same
15 paragraph, an agitator?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Because of that.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning,
18 “The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against
19 foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence”?
20 Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you
21 just throw these things in there?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you
23 did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe
24 this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the
25 law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself
26 is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their
1 cause or its cause as an anti-Semitic, right-wing
2 extremist, and often denialist, as you can see in the
3 newspapers and as are referred to by the articles thing.
4 So it is a kind of mutual interaction with often very
5 cautious tactic lines.
6 Q. [Mr Irving]: But, Professor Funke, each of those activities or
7 agitation factors that you list there, propagating hatred
8 against foreigners, anti-Semitism, inciting violence, each
9 of those would be an illegal activity if it was true. So
10 why was the DVU never prosecuted, as you say it was not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You asked that before.
12 MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord, but I wanted to underlined the point,
13 if the DVU is accused in that sentence of conducting these
14 activities, it seems highly improbable given that they
15 were never prosecuted.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: Again, Mr Irving took sides with this extremist party, and
17 I can go into details of how intense anti-Semitic party
18 members and the newspapers are. There is no doubt about
20 Q. [Mr Irving]: But not in the extreme form.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: The other part of the answer is that that does not mean
22 that this party is illegal, because of the special
23 importance parties, as parties, were given by the
24 constitutional law as a reaction to the period before, and
25 that includes that the political party has a special —-
26 THE INTERPRETER: A right to participate.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]: — stated by the constitutional law directly. So it is
2 very difficult to push aside parties when they not only
3 claim but by their structure are parties, although they
4 may not be in the internal structure democratic ones.
5 This is why at the beginning it was so extended to
6 describe the specifics of the German political system and
7 the right-wing extremist cause they have to fight.
8 MR IRVING: I think it would be easier to deal with
9 personalities tomorrow, my Lord, because the organizations
10 are clearly problem.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I have some idea of the timing, how
12 much cross-examination?
13 MR IRVING: I have one more day at this rate, less than a day.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: A day of cross-examination of Professor
16 MR IRVING: I think so, yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your original estimate was half a day.
18 MR IRVING: I will abbreviate it then.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not do it because I say that.
20 MR IRVING: Your Lordship is excellent at brooming me along and
21 making me scrap hours of work.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you to take whatever
23 course you think.
24 MR IRVING: If I know your Lordship is not going to pay
25 attention to those matters —-
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have give you a very, very clear
1 indication I hope of what I would be paying attention to.
2 MR IRVING: Had I had that indication last night —-
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree, but I did not know what you were
4 going to be asking about. 10.30 tomorrow.
5 < (The witness withdrew
6 (The court adjourned until the following day)