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    Day 15 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

    Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 4.9)

    1996 I. No. 113
    2  Royal Courts of Justice
    3  Strand, London
    4  Thursday, 3rd February 2000
    6  Before:
    10  Claimant -and-
    13  Defendants
    14  The Claimant appeared in person
    15  MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
    16  Second Defendants
    17  MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
    18  MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
    19  the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
    21  (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
    &Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
    22  Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
    23  (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)

    .           P-1

      1  <Day 15 Thursday, 3rd February 2000
      2  (10.30 a.m.)
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, really not for
      4  either of your benefit but for the benefit of members of
      5  the public who are following the trial, we are not sitting
      6  tomorrow and that is going to be the pattern, generally
      7  speaking, for the future. That is just to save anyone a
      8  wasted journey.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship may wish to consider what happens
    10  next week because Monday, everything being equal, it will
    11  be Professor Browning. I do not know how long he will be.
    12  After that will be Professor Evans. Your Lordship has
    13  said that Mr Irving may have time, I do not know however
    14  long your Lordship thinks is needed, perhaps a day or
    15  whatever, to prepare cross-examination for Professor
    16  Evans. It may, therefore be that we shall be taking a day
    17  off before Friday next week.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. We will deal with that if and when it
    19  arises. I am anxious that Mr Irving should be given ample
    20  opportunity to prepare, because it must be exhausting, the
    21  burden that you are bearing at the moment.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I quite agree.
    23  MR IRVING:  I have indicated that I would want one extra day
    24  between Professor Browning and Professor Evans.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is certainly reasonable. If you need
    26  more, say so.

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      1  MR IRVING:  Monday I will be pretty well prepared, but to save
      2  the court time actually in session it will be better if
      3  I come well prepared.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is true too, yes.
      5  MR IRVING:  My Lord, at sometime this morning I will be calling
      6  a witness who has not arrived yet, Mr Peter Millar, on the
      7  Moscow matter. I do not anticipate we will need more than
      8  one hour with him so, with Mr Rampton’s consent, I would
      9  propose that we continue with the cross-examination of
    10  myself until my witness arrives, and that we then find a
    11  suitable point to interrupt and slot my witness in.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, I was being badgered. Is that
    13  today?.
    14  MR IRVING:  Peter Millar.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Is that today?
    16  MR IRVING:  That is this morning.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Any time.
    18  MR IRVING:  Yes. My Lord, the only other thing I want to say
    19  is that we mentioned yesterday the book by Gerald
    20  Fleming. It is right that I should say that I have now
    21  looked at the book and I have seen that I have marked it
    22  up in part. And I will give your Lordship a copy of book
    23  to see, which you can then pass to Mr Rampton. You will
    24  see that I have read, obviously, the first 22 pages of it
    25  from the annotations in the margin on one occasion, and
    26  then on another occasion I read into it specifically

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      1  concerning the Bruns episode.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will take what you have just said as
      3  evidence.
      4  MR IRVING:  Perhaps I should repeat it from the box.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, do not bother because we have a
      6  transcript. I will take it as your evidence because it
      7  does arise out of your cross-examination and it is
      8  something that Mr Rampton can pursue as and when he wants
      9  to.

    Part II: David Irving Cross-examined by Richard Rampton, continued (4.10-38.19)

    Section 4.10 to 18.1

    10  < Mr David Irving, recalled
    11  < Further cross-examined by Mr Rampton QC.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I will not take time with that now, my Lord.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: They have, obviously had the book already in discovery.
    14  MR IRVING:  Not the actual book?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the actual book. Those are their flags still
    16  stuck to the pages, and you will see that there are
    17  annotations that I made presumably about five or 10 years
    18  ago for the first 22 pages, pages five to 27, indicating
    19  that I have read into it for 22 pages, and then I went
    20  back at a later time, which is the second set of stickers
    21  and I looked just specifically at the Bruns episode, as
    22  I remembered yesterday.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  We will look at it in due course. Thank you,
    24  Mr Irving.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Give it to your side, as it were.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I shall also be writing to the solicitors of the

    .           P-4

      1  Defendants to suggest that I wish to have more information
      2  about the provenance of that document of August 1st.
      3  Having seen it, it is a document I would like to know more
      4  about.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Also one other point the transcript we were reading
      7  yesterday of the speech I made in Bow, it is wrong by one
      8  year. It is May 1993. It should be 1993.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is dated ’92 at the moment.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: It is dated 1992 at the moment. I have checked the famous
    11  diary and it is May 1993, by which time, of course, many
    12  things had happened to justify the remarks I made in my
    13  diary.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Rampton?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  One small point first, MR IRVING: do you remember
    16  the discussion, I think on Tuesday, that is two days ago,
    17  1st February, about the Nuremberg document PS 3051?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is at any rate one version of a telex from Heydrich at
    20  1.20 a.m. on the morning of 10th November 1938.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You in court would not accept that your reference to that
    23  document as 3052 was wrong and that, indeed, you were
    24  referring to 3051. Do you remember that?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I was referring to two documents in my source reference.
    26  The other one, if you remember, was Karl Wolff. I have

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      1  now checked with all versions of the manuscript — it went
      2  through five or six different versions — to see how the
      3  error occurred in the digit because obviously I want to
      4  track something like that down. The actual reference is
      5  to Karl Wolff as Karl Wolff quoting Werner Best, who was a
      6  Gestapo official.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, please, can we try today to stick to the
      8  point? I am going to read you something which appeared on
      9  your web site — this is so as to remove a point of
    10  controversy from the case entirely — yesterday or this
    11  morning. You print reports of your own version of what
    12  goes on in court.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: The “Radical’s Diary”, yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You write this. I am not entering into the argy-bargy at
    15  all. It is full of comments and I am leaving that out.
    16  “In ‘Goebbels Mastermind of the Third Reich’ I have
    17  muddled one source note identified there as PS 3052, thus
    18  Karl Wolff (it should have been 3051)”.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  3051 is the one that was produced in court
    21  which has, as it were, nothing to do with it?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: The diary just says that I identified it as P 3052 plus
    23  Karl Wolff. You rather swallowed the word “plus”. It
    24  should have been 3051 instead of 3052.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I now would like you, in view of the
    26  answers you gave about the National Alliance yesterday ,

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      1  notwithstanding the tape that we showed, to look at one
      2  very short part of the same tape. We will pause it still
      3  when we get to the right place. Then I shall ask you
      4  whether you still adhere to the position you took
      5  yesterday.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Which position are we talking about? Be specific.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think this is the October 1995 visit to Tampa. This
      8  is ’96, sorry.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Can you specify what position you are referring to when
    10  you say I am still referring to the same position?
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You took the position that You had no idea who the
    12  National Alliance were, that it was a meeting organized by
    13  them, or anything of that kind.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, we will look at this.
    16  (Excerpt of video was played)
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does it get any clearer?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I can see what you are pointing to.
    19  (Excerpt of video was played)
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is not —-
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is rather unfortunate they show that bit, is it not,
    22  because I am accused of being a Holocaust denier.
    23  (Excerpt of video was played)
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There. Now, Mr Irving, you see that picture?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it has its back to me apparently.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It has not got its back to you.

    .           P-7

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: It has.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is there by your left shoulder.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. If I see something like that in a hall, I would not
      4  know from Adam was that is. Would you know what it was if
      5  you went into a hall and you saw that?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, if I was speaking on a platform and that was part of
      7  my paraphernalia.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not actually a platform.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And pictures put up by the organizer, of course I would
    10  know, Mr Irving. That is enough of that, thank you.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not enough of that because there is one—-
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Turn it off now will you, please?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes because it might show some more unfortunate denials
    14  that I am a denier, would it not? Can I just make a
    15  statement, so to speak, in re-examination there and say
    16  that I will point out that you have had my entire
    17  correspondence with all organizations to whom I ever
    18  spoke. You have had my entire private diaries. Professor
    19  Evans himself says in his report that he has found no
    20  reference to the National Alliance in my private diaries.
    21  You have not so far produced to this court one single item
    22  of correspondence between me and the National Alliance.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I just want to ask you two more questions, Mr Irving.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: I take it you accept what I have just said?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you have said it to me. I have
    26  taken it on board but you do not need to get Mr Rampton to

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      1  answer your evidence.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It is an opportunity for Mr Rampton to cross-examine on
      3  that point.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  No, Mr Irving, it was re-examination. You said so
      5  yourself. I do not butt in when people are re-examining.
      6  I let people do it to themselves.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: You took away about 40 boxes of all my private files and
      8  papers and not one single letter between me and the
      9  National Alliance have you produced to this court.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have the point.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  We changed the date on this. My Lord, I am going
    12  back to the little clip of utterances, page 37 in the
    13  clip, my Lord, file K4, tab 4, page 3.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have lost the clip.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Your clip, my Lord, has been put in the front of
    16  K4, apparently.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Page 3, my Lord. This is Bow 1993, I think you
    19  tell us now. Is that right?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: That is right yes.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  Page 3 of the transcript, my Lord, and page 37 of
    23  the clip. I am going to start a little bit before the
    24  clip extract begins. If Mr Irving wants to read on or
    25  have more, than he must do it himself, the whole text is
    26  there. I am going to read, Mr Irving, from the sixth line

    .           P-9

      1  in the middle of the page after the words “our national
      2  heritage”, where you say this:
      3  “When people ask me about racism I say ‘would
      4  you mind explaining to me what is the difference between
      5  racism and patriotism’? Journalists, television
      6  interviewers, I’ve had a great deal of these in the last 2
      7  or 3 weeks, you won’t notice this of course, because I’ve
      8  been going to the television studios here or in Camden
      9  town or in Isleworth, speaking by satellite live on prime
    10  time Australian television, 3 or 4 times last week. New
    11  Zealand television as well because New Zealand always
    12  picks up what their big brothers do in Australia, and the
    13  journalist has said ‘Mr Irving, we read in today’s
    14  newspapers that you told the ABC radio” — that is an
    15  Australian radio, is it not, Mr Irving, ABC radio?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “‘That you feel queasy about the immigration disaster
    18  that’s happened to Britain. Is that your opinion’?
    19  And I said well yes, I have admit to being born in England
    20  in 1938, which was totally different England, I feel
    21  queasy when I look and see what has happened to our
    22  country, nobody has stood up and objected to it’ and he
    23  says, ‘well what do you think about black people on the
    24  Australian, on the British cricket team then? How do you
    25  feel about that then, the black cricketers’? So I said,
    26  ‘that makes me even more queasy,”. Pause there, please,

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      1  Mr Irving.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to read on. Why does it make you feel queasy
      4  that black Englishmen should play cricket for England?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: What is left out here is what is also stated in the
      6  interview that he then said exactly same question as you
      7  and my reply to him on air was, what a pity it is that we
      8  have to have blacks on the team and that they are better
      9  than our whites.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why is that a pity?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a pity because I am English.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Are they not English too?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, English or British, are you saying?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am saying that they are English. Most of them are born
    15  here, just as all the Jews in England were born here, most
    16  of them.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Are we talking about blacks or Jews now?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It does not matter. They are all English.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: The England I was born into it, if you had read earlier,
    20  the England I was born into, which is the England I come
    21  from and probably the England you come from, although
    22  probably a few years after mine, was different from the
    23  England that exists now.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, thank goodness.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: When I talk about English, I am talking about the England
    26  I came from.

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      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: When did the Irvings arrive on these shores, Mr Irving?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: King Robert the Bruce, I think. We can go back as far as
      3  that.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where did they come from?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Scotland.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. The Bruces came from France. They were Normans,
      7  beastly foreigners.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: The Bruces came from France?
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Robert the Bruce was a Norman princeling, if you like.
    10  Where did the Irvings come from?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: What do you mean, where did the Irvings come from? How
    12  far back are we going to go?
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is the point, is it not? How far back do you have to
    14  go? Does it matter, Mr Irving?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: It does. You see, what I am saying in this entire
    16  paragraph is this. Somebody born in England of 1938, with
    17  all the values that I grew up in, grew to respect and
    18  admire and love, I regret what has happened to our country
    19  now. Sometimes I wish I could go Heathrow Airport and get
    20  on a 747 and take a ten hour flight and land back in
    21  England as it was, as it used to be. That is what this
    22  paragraph is saying.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, it is. It is saying that England has changed in this
    24  regrettable respect, that now we have all these black
    25  people in England.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: One wonderful thing about England, Mr Rampton, you may

    .           P-12

      1  disprove of it, is that privately you are allowed to have
      2  your own private thoughts about the way things go, what
      3  you would call a state of mind, and my state of mind is
      4  that I regret what has happened to the England I grew up
      5  in.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That, I am afraid, Mr Irving, is characteristic of people
      7  that one may properly and legitimately call racist, is it
      8  not?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Or patriotic. Patriotism is literally respecting the
    10  country that has been handed to you by your fathers, by
    11  your parents.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You are proposing —-
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I wish you would not interrupt me when I am speaking.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Finish your answer.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, I had not thought you had anything
    16  more to say, I am bound to say.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: You interrupt my flow of oratory.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Carry on.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think there is anything despicable or
    20  disreputable about patriotism. You wish to call it racism,
    21  that is your choice. I call it patriotism. Respect and
    22  love of the country that I grew up, the England I was born
    23  into.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we just go back to the cricketers? Is
    25  the regret you feel about them playing for England or
    26  wherever because of the colour of their skin?

    .           P-13

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: No, it is, I think — I feel sorry that my England was
      2  unable to provide enough good cricketers, if I can put it
      3  like that.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  So the answer to his Lordship’s question is yes,
      5  is it not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: No, it was not.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You regret the fact —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: The answer was as I stated it.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Don’t you interrupt either, please, Mr Irving. You regret
    10  the fact, do you not, that there are not enough good white
    11  cricketers to keep out the black cricketers?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, again this is probably a tendential answer, but I am
    13  not very well up on cricket and I am not a great
    14  cricketing fan. This is an example that I am not very
    15  positive about.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you ever watch the English football team or any of the
    17  English clubs play football?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: If I do not watch cricket, I certainly do not watch
    19  football.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you propose that the numerous black people who play for
    21  first class football clubs and for England in this country
    22  are not patriotic, Mr Irving?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: What I am probably saying is this, is that it is
    24  regrettable that blacks and people of certain races are
    25  superior athletes to whites. Now, if this is a racist
    26  attitude, then so be it. It is a recognition that some

    .           P-14

      1  people are better at different things. And perhaps you
      2  may wish to legislate that state of affairs away, you may
      3  wish to describe it as despicable, but it is a recognition
      4  and it is an objective statement about the way things
      5  are. They run faster, they jump higher and there is no
      6  disputing that fact.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why is it regrettable?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it is regrettable in as much as it is now described
      9  as being a racist attitude, and there is disreputable to
    10  point out that there are differences between the species.
    11  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You would like it to be the position, would you not, as
    12  with the National Alliance, that this country was a pure
    13  white Aryan race of people who went back at least as far
    14  as Robert the Bruce, for what difference it makes, would
    15  you not?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you heard what I said about taking off in that 747
    17  and landing back in England as it was, the England of the
    18  blue lamp and Jack Warner and when there was no chewing
    19  gum on the pavements, and all the rest of it.
    20  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I will just finish.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is just an old fashioned attitude, I think. You will
    22  probably find that 90 per cent of Englishmen born at the
    23  same time as me think the same. That is what democracy is
    24  about.
    25  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I am sure you have not been standing with a clipboard in
    26  Oxford Street either, Mr Irving?

    .           P-15

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: You will have heard the word “probably”, on the balance of
      2  probabilities.
      3  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I will just finish this, if I may, and then I want to pass
      4  to one more. Where was I? “‘How do you feel about that
      5  then, the black cricketers?’ So I said, ‘That makes me
      6  even more queasy …’ and so he says right, and I say,
      7  ‘No, hang on, it makes me feel queasy but I would like to
      8  think we’ve got white cricketers who are as good as the
      9  black ones’ and he couldn’t climb out of that, you see”?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: There you are. That is precisely what I just said.
    11  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, Mr Irving, but I do not myself see — perhaps you can
    12  enlighten me — why the journalist should have anything to
    13  climb out of.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Because he was wanting me to express an attitude that the
    15  blacks are in some way inferior to us. They are different
    16  from us but not inferior.
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Then he says, you see, he has rather not had anything to
    18  climb out of, he has picked up on what you said, he says:
    19  “‘So what you’re advocating then is a kind of race
    20  hatred’.” He was absolutely right, was he not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, he obviously had his agenda of questions. He
    22  probably had them written down on his clipboard in front
    23  of him, “Ask him about race hatred. Use the word ‘race’.
    24  Keep calling him a racist’. This is the way journalists
    25  keep their jobs, is it not? They are politically
    26  correct. They know the questions to ask and nobody fires

    .           P-16

      1  them. I have never been politically correct and I am not
      2  ashamed of it.
      3  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: “So I said, ‘Before I answer your questions, would you
      4  tell me what you believe in, as a journalist, an
      5  Australian journalist. Do you believe in mixing up all
      6  God’s races into one super, kind of mixed up race? Are
      7  you in favour of racial intermarriage and racial mixing?’
      8  and he said, ‘Well, I believe in multi-culturalism’.” Do
      9  you believe, Mr Irving, in intermarriage between races, as
    10  you call it?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I have precisely the same attitude about this as the
    12  Second Defendant does.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tell us what your attitude is.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Tell us what her attitude then is.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, or yours.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I believe in God keeping the races the way he built them.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I see.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: And I will be putting evidence about the Second
    19  Defendant’s position on this in court later on.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Although he is remorselessly —-
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, although he is remorselessly pursuing his Final
    23  Solution to kill off all the blacks in Africa?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: In his infinite wisdom.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In his infinite wisdom.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: That is not exactly what I said in the previous diary

    .           P-17

      1  passage. That is a total manipulation of that passage.

    Section 18.2-38.14

      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One more and then we can pass on to Moscow, Mr Irving.
      3  There is a tab 3A in this file, K4. Your Lordship will
      4  find this, I hope, on page 37A of the clip. This is, I
      5  think, the Clarendon Club speech?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  My clip does not have a 37A.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  It has not got a 37A? It is a very short
      8  passage. I have mine at 37A. May I ask your Lordship to
      9  use the file which has got a tab 3A — at least mine has.
    10  Your Lordship has a 3A tab.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  A tab, yes, but not in the clip.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  No, I am sorry, that is my fault. I have made my
    13  own new number?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I say here, of course, that when the tables are turned
    15  and it is my turn to cross-examine, I shall be putting in
    16  any amount of evidence which completely refutes the notion
    17  that I have racist attitudes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a perfectly proper thing to say.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: The reason I say that, of course is —-
    20  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You will have your turn, Mr Irving, of course.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but in the meantime, the world turns and newspapers
    22  appear.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  That is too complicated for me. I cannot follow
    24  that. Could you turn to — this is the Clarendon Club in
    25  1990?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-18

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The numbers of the pages are at the top right-hand
      2  corner. There are 12 pages in all. Can you turn to page
      3  9 of 12, please? I am going to read the whole of this.
      4  This block in the first half of the page, leaving aside
      5  the interesting historical comment in bold type. You say:
      6  “Thus, we follow this tangled thread. At the end of the
      7  war in 1945, the British Empire was at its greatest ever
      8  extent in history. Our armies straddled the globe. We
      9  were beginning to get back the territories that we had
    10  lost in the Far East through Churchill’s foolish military
    11  and naval strategy. And suddenly the Empire went.
    12  Groping around in the darkness, we look for”, capital G,
    13  “Guilty”, capital M, “Men. Partly I think that we must
    14  blame sins of omission. If we look back from where
    15  Britain is now, with just a handful of people of true
    16  English, Irish, Scots and Welsh stock – apprehensive,
    17  furtively meeting in dinners like this, exchanging our own
    18  shared sensations and sorrows – then we can see where some
    19  of the worst errors have been made.
    20  “In 1958, for example, we find Lord Hailsham
    21  saying at a Cabinet meeting, ‘I do not think this Coloured
    22  Immigration is going to be much of a problem in Britain.
    23  We only have 100,000 of these immigrants so far, and I do
    24  not think the numbers are likely to grow much beyond
    25  that! So on chance I am against having any restrictions
    26  imposed”. It might be “on balance”, is it?

    .           P-19

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: It should be “on balance”, yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think it should. Then you close the quote from Lord
      3  Hailsham and you say: “Traitor No. 1 to the British
      4  cause”. What do you mean by that?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Lord Hailsham, these were records that were in 1988 just
      6  released from the Public Record Office, Cabinet records,
      7  and they reveal Lord Hailsham, who later became a Lord
      8  Chancellor, I believe, having said at a Cabinet meeting in
      9  1958 in a totally negligent manner that he did not think
    10  that immigration into Britain was going to be a problem
    11  and that so far only 100,000 had arrived, and he thought
    12  it would not go to more than that.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And why does that make him a traitor, No. 1 traitor?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Because it is the duty of the custodians of government in
    15  this country to look ahead and to try to ward off any kind
    16  of misfortunes and tragedies that may otherwise befall the
    17  country which is put into their guardianship.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So what you are really saying is they have an overriding
    19  obligation to safeguard the racial purity of the mixed bag
    20  of mongrels of Anglo Saxons, French, Celts, Irish and
    21  goodness knows what all that you call “English”, is that
    22  right?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not sure that the British or English would be very
    24  flattered by the “mongrels” that you have called them. If
    25  I were to use language like that, I could be rightly and
    26  justifiably accused of vilification, of defamation and

    .           P-20

      1  possibly even of racism.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Some of us, Mr Irving —-
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you calling the English half breeds then?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly, one of your favourite terms, “half breeds”.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you called them “mongrels”. If I had used the word
      6  “mongrel” in my diary, then I would have been the subject
      7  of massive obloquy.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Some people, Mr Irving, leaving aside yourself and some of
      9  your friends from the Third Reich, do not mind having
    10  mixed ancestry. Does that baffle you? Do you find that
    11  shocking?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I have explained to you what my notion of patriotism
    13  is. Patriotism is pride in the country that has been
    14  handed down to you by your parents and by their parents
    15  before them.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will carry on with the text, if I may? There is not
    17  much more. I should like to think there is somebody
    18  somewhere doing what Gilbert and Sullivan would have done
    19  had Mikado do which is making up a little list of named
    20  people”, to be executed is the allusion, is it not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: That is a childish remark, frankly.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, that is right, is it not? Who is childish, me or
    23  you?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: To suggest that a little list, there is a little list of
    25  people to be executed in some kind of Fourth Reich what
    26  is, no doubt, what you will have said next.

    .           P-21

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not suggesting —-
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: That we have democratic processes in this country where
      3  lists of people get regularly fired by the electorate,
      4  but, unfortunately, we did not know in 1958 that Lord
      5  Hailsham had taken this wicked decision.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not suggesting you wanted Lord Hailsham executed,
      7  though may be you did —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: That is precisely the innuendo you placed on that phrase.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But the little list in your book, if you are the Mikado,
    10  is a list of traitors and the nature of their treachery is
    11  to allow large numbers of people who are not of pure
    12  mongrel English stock into this country, is it not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: That is precisely what I did not say. What I did say, he
    14  is a traitor because he has not had Britain’s interests,
    15  the interests of the British people at heart. He has
    16  failed to see ahead to the tragedy which massive
    17  immigration would inflict on this country.
    18  This country was existing in a relative state of
    19  peace. If you ask the family of Steven Laurence, you will
    20  see the kind of tragedy that has been inflicted on an
    21  individual scale by massive immigration into a foreign
    22  country.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So people like the Laurences, rather like your remarks
    24  about the Jews, have brought it on themselves, is that the
    25  theory?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, really! If this is the level of your advocacy —-

    .           P-22

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, what do you mean?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: — this morning, then perhaps we ought to take a break.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What do you mean, Mr Irving?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Shall I spell it out?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, please.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I will repeat what I just said. In the 1950s, Britain was
      7  a country at peace. We had defeated a major world power.
      8  We were licking our wounds and recovering and, for no
      9  perceptible reason, we then through the folly and
    10  negligence of the government that we had voted into power,
    11  as we now see, through their total negligence, through
    12  their ignorance, we inflicted on this country a body wound
    13  which only began at that time, the kind of wound which has
    14  led to 100,000 cases of the Stephen Laurence tragedy
    15  occurring on one level, and it could have been avoided.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Those tragedies —-
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: It was a tragedy inflicted on the immigrants whom we
    18  imported as slaves, as cheap labour into this country, and
    19  it was a tragedy on this country.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and the reason why people like Stephen Laurence or
    21  Stephen Laurence, if you like, was killed was because he
    22  was black, was it not?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I think you are absolutely right. Of course, we do not
    24  know because there has been no formal finding in that
    25  matter.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And who is to blame for the fact that Stephen Laurence was

    .           P-23

      1  killed because he was black?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I do not want to sound legalistic, but until there
      3  is a proper legal enquiry into the matter and the guilt is
      4  apportioned and we find out exactly what happened, it
      5  would be wrong to kind of prejudge that issue, but we can
      6  talk in theoretical terms and say who is to blame if a
      7  black is killed by racist white thugs.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, who is to blame?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: The racist white thugs are to blame.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you very much. Now we go on, please: “Even if we
    11  all pull together jointly and severally for the next 10,
    12  20, or 30 years and manage to put the clock back, say,
    13  half an hour of its time, the really”, capital G,
    14  “Guilty”, capital P, “People” will have passed on
    15  commemorated only by the bronze plaques and the statues
    16  and memorials scattered around our capital. We can go
    17  around and efface those monuments; but it is going to be
    18  a damned sight harder to put Britain back where it was.
    19  I don’t think Mrs Thatcher or her like are going to be the
    20  people to do it. Even less do I think the Socialist Party
    21  are going to be the people to do it. Nothing makes me —
    22  Mr David Irving — shudder —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I just explain the phrase Guilty People, why it is in
    24  capital letters?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We have had all that earlier on.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Say what you want to say about it and then we

    .           P-24

      1  will come back.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a reference of course to a very famous book by
      3  Michael Foot in 1938 about the appeasers.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  In this context it means the politicians who
      5  allowed all these black, brown and Jewish people into this
      6  country, does it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think we are talking about specific categories of
      8  people. We are talking about the appeasers, who have
      9  kowtowed to the Buddha of political correctness.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Whatever.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: And have ruined their own country in the process.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, please. Sometimes your interpretation of your
    13  own words is, to say the least, bewildering. In this
    14  context, it must be, must it not, that one of the
    15  principal guilty people, in fact possibly the most guilty
    16  because he is traitor number 1, was, for example, Lord
    17  Hailsham?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: And cabinet ministers like him, quite clearly. I have
    19  simply taken him as an example because that record has
    20  just come into the public domain at that time, but we
    21  presume that there are others like him, Harold Macmillan
    22  and others of that ilk.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Anybody who, at the very least, acquiesced in the
    24  admission to this country of large numbers of immigrants?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Of whatever colour. It would have made no difference if
    26  they had acquiesced in the immigration into Britain of

    .           P-25

      1  huge numbers of, shall we say, Slovaks or Poles or people
      2  of whatever colour. If you import people, whatever
      3  colour, into a country on that massive scale, it
      4  introduces social unrest and economic unrest. There is no
      5  reference in this passage, what you have read, from which
      6  one can deduce that I am referring in that passage only to
      7  people of colour, let alone the Jews or anybody else that
      8  you are trying to shoehorn into it.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do not worry about that. We have just seen a reference in
    10  the Hailsham passage to coloured immigration.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: That is what was happening at that time. Lord Hailsham
    12  referred specifically in cabinet to the coloured
    13  immigration.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Capital C, capital I, Coloured Immigration. Now we are
    15  going to see exactly what you talking about in the next
    16  sentence, if you will just let me read it:
    17  “Nothing makes me shudder more than two or
    18  three months, working on a new manuscript, and I arrive
    19  back at Heathrow Airport – where of course, my passport is
    20  checked by a Pakistani immigration officer (Laughter).
    21  Isn’t that a humiliation for us English? (Applause)”.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we continue, please, and we will see what makes me
    23  shudder.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. We will come to the rest of it in a
    25  moment.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the parenthesis. He has read the parenthesis as

    .           P-26

      1  though that is what makes me shudder, and of course that
      2  is not what makes me shudder.
      3  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You are going to be asked a question about that particular
      4  sentence now.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we read the whole sentence in context?
      6  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You can see what comes later in a moment. Just answer
      7  Mr Rampton’s question first.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: He has paused at the wrong place.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  No, Mr Irving. I want to know what is the matter
    10  with your passport stamp being put, or whatever it is, put
    11  on by a Pakistani.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Checked by”.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  Checked by a Pakistani immigration official,
    14  officer, which caused great laughter amongst the audience
    15  apparently, or the laughter anyway, and why you should be
    16  applauded for saying that such an experience is an
    17  “humiliation for us English”?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, presumably, if he is a Pakistani and he is working
    19  there, he has less right to check my passport than an
    20  Englishman who is working there. I would expect an
    21  Englishman to be better in control of immigration into
    22  England than somebody who has born outside the country,
    23  which is why that remark is made.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is as maybe. Mr Rampton’s question is
    25  why is it humiliating?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: That is bound up in my answer to the question, my Lord,

    .           P-27

      1  that I would have expected English people to be checking
      2  the immigration. If you go to Germany, you do not have,
      3  for example, Jamaicans, or you do not have Kosovans, or
      4  you do not have Russians checking the passports going into
      5  the country. You expect to have people of the country
      6  concerned who are checking the passports of the people
      7  going in and specifically at immigration control.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  There might be a problem if you have had an
      9  immigration officer newly brought from, let us say, the
    10  north west provinces of China who did not speak English.
    11  Beyond that I simply do not understand what you are
    12  saying, I am afraid.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I think I have explained it relatively well. On the
    14  balance of probabilities at the time that I am talking
    15  about, these people have not been born in England. You
    16  were referring specifically to these people, these people
    17  that you have referred to. They have not been born in
    18  England, but they have been granted jobs in the Customs
    19  and Immigration service, and we find that they are
    20  checking our right to come back into the country in which
    21  we have been born, which strikes me as being paradoxical.
    22  This is what I am trying to convey to the readers.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you have any idea, Mr Irving? I do not, but I can
    24  easily find out if it is necessary. Do you any idea,
    25  Mr Irving, how many of the so-called coloured minorities,
    26  minority peoples, in this country have been born here?

    .           P-28

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you going to lead evidence on this?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I want to know if you know.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I have no idea whatsoever that I can state here on
      4  oath, no.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then what is the basis for your remark that on a balance
      6  of probabilities that chap at the airport not been born
      7  here?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: That is why I used the phrase “on the balance of
      9  probabilities”.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is your basis for thinking there is a balance of
    11  probabilities?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Because we know of the rate at which immigration occurred
    13  within the last ten years, within last 15 years, at the
    14  time this speech had been, so on the balance of
    15  probabilities these are recent arrivals, which is why
    16  I stated that. Now can we have the rest of that
    17  sentence?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, by all means.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Nothing makes me shudder more than arriving “and I go
    20  outside the Terminal building and there is an Evening
    21  Standard placard saying, ‘Kinnock in fresh Wedgwood Benn
    22  row'”. That is what made me shudder. You tried to
    23  pretend it was a Pakistani immigration official that made
    24  me shudder. That is what I call manipulation.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Oh, really? Mr Irving, I am afraid I reverse that
    26  arrow and throw it straight back at you, because it is

    .           P-29

      1  exactly what you have just done. What you were telling
      2  your audience, which is why you got laughter and applause,
      3  is that there was a humiliating experience of having your
      4  passport checked by some dreadful little brown man who had
      5  no business to be here that made you shudder.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: No. It is having it checked by a foreigner that made me
      7  shudder. You yourself adduced the fact that he was
      8  brown. Pakistanis of course are not necessarily
      9  brown. It is perfectly possible to be Pakistani and
    10  white, but you are the one who has the racist attitude and
    11  you automatically assume that the Pakistani is brown.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There are some, very few we know but, Mr Irving, do
    13  not—-
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I know a number of very interesting cases of English
    15  people who are born in Pakistan and found difficulties
    16  getting back into England.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, this passage in your speech is all about
    18  coloured immigrants.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not. It is about immigration, of which the major
    20  element is coloured immigration, of course, at that time.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and so that is why you chose—-
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Now of course we have other immigration which is causing
    23  problems. I would deliver exactly the same speech now
    24  about immigration from central Europe which is not a
    25  coloured immigration problem.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is why you chose the Pakistan instead of somebody

    .           P-30

      1  else of, say, German ancestry, is it not?.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It is unlikely there would be a German checking our
      3  passports at Passport Control. I think that probably
      4  everyone would draw the line at that.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why do you not say, “What makes me shudder, it is so
      6  humiliating, when I get back to London I too often find
      7  that the immigration officer is an Australian”?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: You are manipulating this again. What made me shudder was
      9  the placard outside reading, “Kinnock in fresh row with
    10  Wedgwood Benn” and you know you are back in England again.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It speaks for itself, does it not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: He is manipulating again, and trying to tell the public
    13  gallery that I shuddered at arriving and finding a
    14  Pakistani checking my passport.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Now, my Lord, I propose to pass from racism —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: That is precisely the kind of manipulation that I am
    17  accused of.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I propose to pass from racism — I have said enough about
    19  that, I believe — to Moscow.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we then in at that case please call my witness first?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but just before you do that, I want to
    22  get something straight. I have got a clip, which
    23  I suppose consists of, I do not know, 30/40 speeches or
    24  extracts from the speeches.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It seems to me that on this aspect of the

    .           P-31

      1  case the position is somewhat different. The mere fact
      2  you have not cross-examined on these other speeches.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  I should have said that.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That does not, it seems to me, mean that they
      5  are not part of the case and, Mr Irving, you should be
      6  clear that that is the way in which I am approaching this
      7  part of the case. Do you follow what I am saying?.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: In other words, you intend to take into account the other
      9  ones on which he has not cross-examined?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I think that must be right on this part
    11  of the case, that being the criticism, because you have
    12  explained very clearly, if I may say so, what your views
    13  are on the topic of alleged racism.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes or whatever, patriotism.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I think I am entitled therefore to look at the totality of
    16  all this.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well I would have preferred that they would have marked
    18  those passages in the full text of the speeches.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  They are.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They are. That is what has been done, you
    21  see. I have the full context..
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: And that you would have looked at the full text so you
    23  could have seen the full context.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  I would invite your Lordship — I should have said
    25  it. I did sort of indicate it when I started, by saying,
    26  if we went through every single one, we would be here

    .           P-32

      1  until Christmas, which we would have been.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wanted to spell it out and have it on the
      3  transcript.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  I am very grateful. I do urge your Lordship, as
      5  far as your Lordship wishes to do, it is entirely a matter
      6  for yourself, to read as much of the whole of the speeches
      7  as is relevant, which are not necessarily just the
      8  passages marked.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have been through quite a lot of it before
    10  we even started.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  That is not excellent. That is really not for my
    12  sake but for Mr Irving’s sake. My Lord, can I say
    13  something before Mr Millar is called, and tell your
    14  Lordship our proposal in relation to what I might call
    15  Mr Irving’s right-wing associations. I mean that at the
    16  moment in a neutral sense. The relevant documents, which
    17  consist of letters, diary entries, and so on and so forth,
    18  are spread across 14 files. Cross-examination making
    19  reference to 14 different files is, we believe, simply not
    20  practical. What we — I say “we”, I mean Miss Rogers —
    21  is actually going to do is to produce a single file, as we
    22  have for Moscow and for Dresden and for this topic that we
    23  are have been dealing with, which shall have — this is
    24  not necessarily written in stone — but documents
    25  relating to the IHR, and these will all be the plaintiffs
    26  documents, sorry Mr Irving’s documents, correspondence

    .           P-33

      1  with Zundel, correspondence with German right-wing
      2  persons, the DVU, somebody called Woch, Kristofferson,
      3  Altsans and Karl Philip. Then there will be some diary
      4  entries as well relating to all over the world, but they
      5  will be in sequence. Whether we divide them up by
      6  country, I do not know.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is fine by me. I am anxious that it
      8  does not prejudice Mr Irving. I do not think it will,
      9  will it, Mr Irving?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Once again, as we have frequently seen in the past when
    11  they have done this kind of selection exercise, they have
    12  left out sometimes replies which are germane to the issue,
    13  and they have left out other letters which tend to
    14  neutralize the effect of the first. And, of course, I am
    15  also preparing a very extensive selection of extracts from
    16  the diaries which neutralise their extraction from the
    17  diaries.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do know how you want deal with that
    19  physically because it is a problem. You are perfectly
    20  entitled, if a document is put to you, to say, well, that
    21  is fine but you must also have available the reply,
    22  whatever it may be.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: At present we are intending to come back with our counter
    24  attack when we have the chance of cross-examining each
    25  witness concerned, Professor Funke and the others.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the context of this case I think that is

    .           P-34

      1  probably a reasonable way of dealing with it.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It makes more sense, but of course it is going to produce
      3  a very lopsided effect to start with and I would ask your
      4  Lordship to bear that in mind.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  What will also be in the file, my Lord, is the
      6  statement of case on this part of the case, which will be
      7  cross-referenced to the contents of the file, and also the
      8  relevant request for information and Mr Irving’s
      9  responses. Mr Irving will necessarily and obviously get a
    10  copy of the file. I hope he will get one before your
    11  Lordship sees it. If he has any objection to it, aside
    12  from the fact that he may want your Lordship to see other
    13  stuff, then no doubt he will say so.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When are you thinking we are going to embark
    15  on this? We are going get that when? On Monday?
    16  MR RAMPTON:  It will be ready by Monday, yes, but at the moment
    17  my sense of direction if I can use that, tells me that,
    18  unless your Lordship thinks it right that I should do so,
    19  or unless we have a change of heart overnight, it may not
    20  be necessary for me to cross-examine on that topic at all.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is entirely a matter for you.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I know it is. What I am not proposing at the
    23  moment is that the file should be produced on Monday and
    24  that I should carry on cross-examining Mr Irving. If,
    25  when everybody has digested the contents of the file,
    26  I would have to have your Lordship’s permission if

    .           P-35

      1  I wanted to cross-examine, your Lordship could ask me to
      2  do so, and I would do so, if asked, or Mr Irving might
      3  want me to.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will have to wait and see what is in the
      5  file. Mr Irving may have a view about this as well.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Of course. I add this. For fairly obvious
      7  reasons, the one witness on this that we are going to call
      8  is Dr Funke from Berlin, who is an expert in this area in
      9  academic life in Germany, and he will be called as a
    10  witness.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then I think it has to be put.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: In view of the undertones in that remark, can I ask what
    13  other witnesses they do not intend calling, because we
    14  have prepared very extensively for cross-examination of
    15  Professor Levin, and Professor Eatwell.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  He is not coming.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: This is news, of course.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It will help Mr Irving if he knows what he
    19  does not have to deal with.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  He does not have to bother with Professor Eatwell
    21  or Professor Levin.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: This is news which I am hearing for the first time. We
    23  have spent many weeks preparing documents for the purpose
    24  of cross-examination of those two witnesses, and this is
    25  not the way that a case should be conducted.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it would be helpful if, to the extent

    .           P-36

      1  that witnesses are not going to be called, that Mr Irving
      2  should be, as it were, the first to hear.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  He is.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In this case that is quite important.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It is a decision that I made, I think probably
      6  yesterday.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  The reasons for it I am certainly not going to go
      9  into. I do not have to at all.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  What Mr Irving knows, because I think I have told
    12  him before in open court, my Lord, is this. If there is
    13  material which in his eyes undermines or affects the
    14  credibility of witnesses who are not to be called as live
    15  witnesses, he is entitled to put those materials before
    16  the court.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: You are not telling me anything I do not know, of course.
    18  I am perfectly entitled to do that under the
    19  circumstances.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, we are trying to be constructive
    21  about this and I am actually trying to save you some—-
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I deeply regret this because we have informed the
    23  defence at every stage which witnesses we are calling and
    24  which we are not calling.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I have just said to Mr Rampton what you
    26  heard me say, and I am sure he will let you know if and

    .           P-37

      1  when he is abandoning any other witnesses. But if
      2  Professor Funke is going to be called, then surely what he
      3  has to say, for whatever it may be worth, ought to be put.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  If your Lordship pleases. That is what I said.
      5  I might do it in very broad outline only.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a matter for you, but something has
      7  to be put to give Mr Irving the opportunity to deal with
      8  it.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: It makes it very difficult for me to put in a rebuttal
    10  document unless these witnesses are there to put them to,
    11  which may very well be why they have adopted this tactic.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we see how much of a problem that
    13  proves to be? I think less than perhaps you think.
    14  Having cleared the decks in that way, shall we now have
    15  your Mr Millar? Do you need to speak to him before he
    16  goes into the box?
    17  MR IRVING:  No.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know which file his witness statement is
    19  in, I am afraid. C4, my Lord, tab 3.  < (The witness stood down)

    Part III: Peter Millar (38.20-59.11)

    Section 38.20-49.9

    20  < Mr Peter Millar, sworn.
    21  Examined by Mr Irving.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Mr Millar, do you have a copy of your witness statement
    23  with you?
    24  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No I do not.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Your Lordship will find it in —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have got it.

    .           P-38

      1  MR IRVING:  Mr Millar, when was the last time we met?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Several years ago.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: About eight years ago?
      4  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: About eight years ago, yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: We have not rehearsed today’s discussion in any way?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: In no way at all.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: No way at all. I just take you very rapidly through your
      8  witness statement. In the third paragraph you say that
      9  the Russian archives were in a very dilapidated building
    10  and that the filing system extremely archaic. Is that
    11  correct?
    12  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Absolutely.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: In a minute or two I will be taking you through the
    14  diary which I wrote, one entry, one day’s entry,
    15  concerning our discussion with the Russian archivists. Is
    16  it correct to say that, as you say in your witness
    17  statement, no written agreement was made, everything was
    18  arranged verbally?
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Absolutely.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you turn back to the first page in your witness
    21  statement, please, at the bottom of that paragraph, “After
    22  Mr Irving was allowed access, he told me that the boxes of
    23  microfiches were stored in a very bad condition, in weak
    24  cardboard boxes, with the individual boxes over filled and
    25  no kind of special packaging to protect them”. Can the
    26  witness be given a bundle of photographs, five photographs

    .           P-39

      1  showing the boxes, or a number of boxes, and a number of
      2  microfiches, the glass plates, and a number of photographs
      3  made on those microfiches?
      4  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: (Same handed) Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are those the boxes that, as far as you can recall —-
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Indeed, I remember them very well. I remember noticing in
      7  particular the contemporary 1940s packaging.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, these were the original 50 year old boxes
      9  that the glass plates were still stored in?
    10  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Oh, yes, quite clearly.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you gain the impression that the Russian archivists, I
    12  am going by your statement again, were unfamiliar with the
    13  concept of outsiders having access to their material?
    14  I lived in the Soviet Union for three years and Russian
    15  archivists are completely unused to anyone having access
    16  to anything.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: So a research room is something they are not familiar
    18  with?
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: They would not even have ones to cope with.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did they facilities for reading these glass plates?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Not at the time, no.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: So they had no microfilm reader?
    23  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: There was no microfilm reader.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Nothing at all? How did I manage to read them, then, to
    25  your recollection?
    26  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I am not actually — we looked at them at the time. They

    .           P-40

      1  were not full script. You had a magnifying glass, and
      2  possibly a light source behind.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: When I went to Moscow, had the Sunday Times provided me
      4  with a list of episodes to look specifically for?
      5  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: We had certainly at the Sunday Times, and I advising them,
      6  looked at certain episodes that we were particularly
      7  interest in, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was I going to be there only for a limited space of time?
      9  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: As far as we knew.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would it therefore have been practicable for me to have
    11  browsed at length in the diaries for passages which were
    12  not on the list?
    13  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I do not think so.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I just want to ask you once again. There was no
    15  written agreement between us and the Russians?
    16  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: There was no written agreement that I was aware of.
    17  Whether or not anything else had been arranged between the
    18  legal department of the Sunday Times I have no idea. That
    19  was not my capacity.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: There was no verbal agreement between us and the Russians
    21  to your recollection or, if there was an agreement, what
    22  nature did the agreement have, to your best recollection?
    23  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: My best recollection was verbal agreement that we would
    24  have access to the plates, that we would look at them and
    25  eventually this would be with a view to publishing some of
    26  the contents.

    .           P-41

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You say to publishing some of the contents. Was
      2  that restricted to a book or any kind of publication that
      3  we desired?
      4  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I do not recall that being discussed.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did they limit in it in any way?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I do not recall them doing so.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: On the third page of your witness statement you say that
      8  you double checked some of the transcriptions that I had
      9  made, and the translations. Did you find any reason to
    10  criticise the work that I had done?
    11  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Certainly the translations — I am a fluent German speaker
    12  and the translations were excellent. The transcripts
    13  I had some difficulty because the archaic Gothic script is
    14  difficult to decipher, but in those stretches where
    15  I could make out words it seemed to be accurate.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Moving rapidly on, the final matter on your witness
    17  statement is that you have visited me on several occasions
    18  in my office in London, in my study.
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: At the time when we were negotiating over the Goebbels
    20  diaries, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was 1992, is that correct?
    22  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is correct.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you see hanging over my desk or anywhere in that
    24  office an Adolf Hitler portrait?
    25  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No. I would have noticed that.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was there an Adolf Hitler signature on the desk in a frame

    .           P-42

      1  or anything like that?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: There was, as I refer to in the statement, a water colour
      3  which I was extremely interested in, and you said that it
      4  had been painted by Adolf Hitler and I said it was rather
      5  better than my mother-in-law’s.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was it an original or a duplicate?
      7  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: It was, as far as I was aware, an original. I asked you
      8  that and you told me it was.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Your mother-in-law has got a picture by
    10  Hitler as well?
    11  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: My mother-in-law does water colours, sir.
    12  MR IRVING:  Finally, Mr Millar, would you turn to the little
    13  bundle of the diary? Is it lying around there somewhere?
    14  Otherwise, I will hand one up to you. I would ask you to
    15  just to go to one entry of June 9th 1992.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you have a copy for me, Mr Irving, or have
    17  you handed it up before?
    18  MR IRVING:  It has been handed up before about four or five
    19  days ago with a green corner on it. I have one here.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I will have it here. Is the first
    21  line “invitation needed”?
    22  MR IRVING:  Almost certainly, my Lord. It looks like a diary.
    23  There are obviously many entries referring to Mr Millar,
    24  but I think we will stick with the one day in Moscow when
    25  we negotiated with the Russians, June 9th 1992, Tuesday.
    26  Does your Lordship have it?

    .           P-43

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got there yet but I think I have.
      2  MR IRVING:  This is the famous diary. There are no little
      3  racist ditties in it, I am afraid.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us stick to the task in hand.
      5  MR IRVING:  “9.30 a.m. collected Millar at Metropole”. That is
      6  the hotel. I would ask Mr Millar, would you read rapidly
      7  through those two paragraphs?
      8  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, I have read them.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not so can you give me a moment?
    10  (Pause for reading).
    11  MR IRVING:  In fact, I am going to ask you to read the first
    12  four paragraphs down to the words “Left at 5 p.m.”
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  (Pause for reading) Yes.
    14  MR IRVING:  Very well. I think there is no need to read them
    15  out in court is there, my Lord?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is really a matter for you. There is
    17  certainly no need to.
    18  MR IRVING:  I would just ask him to paraphrase it. Am I
    19  correct in saying this shows us arriving at the archives,
    20  dealing with a man called Dr Bondarev?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Who was Dr Bondarev to your recollection?
    23  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: He was curator in charge of the archives. Certainly he
    24  was the man who controlled access.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was he in overall charge of the Russian archive system?
    26  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, only of that particular building.

    .           P-44

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Who was in overall charge of the Russian Federation
      2  archive system?
      3  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: The man whom we had to contact to gain access was
      4  Bevininski at the Russian Federation Archives building.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Who?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Sorry, Tarasov. I am confusing the two.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor Tarasov. You negotiated with him in Russian?
      8  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is right.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: And I talked with him in English and German?
    10  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is correct.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: And eventually he lifted the telephone and he telephoned
    12  Bondarev.
    13  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, he did.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: What kind of directions did he give to Bondarev in general
    15  terms?
    16  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: He confirmed — we had already seen Bondarev — that we
    17  were to be allowed to see the plates and to work with
    18  them.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Was any kind of restriction placed on that access in
    20  that telephone call, do you remember?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, certainly not in that telephone call.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was there any kind of written paper passed between myself
    23  and Bondarev and Tarasov on that occasion?
    24  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: I only have one other point I wish to examine you on,
    26  Mr Millar, and that is as follows. Two or three days

    .           P-45

      1  later, I borrowed two of the glass plates from the
      2  archives without permission.
      3  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is correct. Did I put the plates back to the best of
      5  your knowledge on the following day?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: At my insistence.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was there any indication that I was intending not to put
      8  them back?
      9  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, there was not.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: What did we do with those plates on the night that they
    11  had their night out, so to speak?
    12  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: What was done with those plates was that you took them
    13  and, using two pieces of cardboard, left them outside the
    14  archive building.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but what did we do with them?
    16  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: They were then shown to the Sunday Times representative.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did we have prints made on that night by a man called
    18  Sacha?
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is right. They were taken away and used to take a
    20  photographic copy.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: You expressed your disapproval of this technique?
    22  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I expressed my disapproval of the fact that they had been
    23  removed from the archive because I thought it was
    24  jeopardising the chances of our continued access.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Quite right. On the following day, did the archive allow
    26  us to remove plates with permission?

    .           P-46

      1  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: After some discussion with them, yes, that is right.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: And this permission was granted on more than one occasion?
      3  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: To the best of my knowledge, it may have been, but my
      4  memory is very vague on that part.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. Did we take two plates, or did I take two
      6  plates, back to England by the same method for the purpose
      7  of evaluation?
      8  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I am not sure what you mean by “the same method”.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, without permission?
    10  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: There was some question of whether or not permission had
    11  been granted at that stage. Certainly two plates were
    12  taken back to England and were copied and as soon as
    13  valuation — primarily because at the time we were very
    14  concerned about the authenticity. The Sunday Times had
    15  been caught with its pants down over the Hitler diaries.
    16  It did not want to repeat the same thing with Mr Goebbels.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I should really have identified you formally at the
    18  beginning of this examination-in-chief by saying you were
    19  acting on behalf of the Sunday Times at all times on this
    20  occasion?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is correct, yes — in a freelance capacity.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: In a freelance capacity, but you were the go-between
    23  between myself and Mr Andrew Neil?
    24  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, after you had initially made the contact with him,
    25  yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the Sunday Times quite properly insisted on having the

    .           P-47

      1  plates authenticated?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Very much so. That was our major concern at that stage,
      3  to make sure that these were genuine.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. To the best of your knowledge, did we have these
      5  plates tested by a glass company, a glass laboratory?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes. I remember quite clearly that they were tested.
      7  I think possibly it was Pilkingtons. They were tested to
      8  make sure that they were of an age and manufacture that
      9  they purported to be.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did we have the emulsion of those photographic plates or
    11  did the Sunday Times emulsion of those photographic
    12  plates?
    13  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Every possible test was done with a great concern about
    14  the authenticity, and at no stage did we want to be seen
    15  that we had got diaries that could be called into question
    16  as to their genuine nature.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you at any time see me handing the plates in a way
    18  that might have caused severe damage to them?
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Certainly not handling, apart from the occasion when they
    20  were removed. You did not handle them in any way, but
    21  I do think that the treatment on that night was perhaps
    22  unwise, to say the least.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, the elicit nature of the removal?
    24  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Sorry?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can I ask this, did Mr Irving
    26  explain to you why he brought two of the plates, or

    .           P-48

      1  whatever it was, back to England?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes. It was clearly understood at the time that was for
      3  the purposes of establishing the authenticity and, as I
      4  say, it was part of the whole agreement that every check
      5  had to be made to be certain that these were genuine 1940s
      6  microfiche plates.
      7  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Did you know in advance that he was going to do that?
      8  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
      9  MR IRVING:  I have no further questions, my Lord.

    Section 49.10-59.11

    10  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I have very few. Mr Millar, can we just look at
    12  your witness statement, please? It is probably best if
    13  Mr Millar is given the Moscow file.
    14  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Sorry, could I ask you to speak up slightly?
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, I am sorry. It sounds very discourteous, I was
    16  trying enquire — your Lordship has a Moscow file,
    17  I think?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not know. Has Mr Irving had this?
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes. On Tuesday, I think.
    20  MR IRVING:  What document are you going to refer to?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I am, first of all, going to refer to Mr Millar’s
    22  witness statement which is tab 3 of C4 — not that one,
    23  Mr Millar, I am sorry. I want you to have both. It is
    24  not your fault at all. There should be a file there
    25  marked C4 containing witness statements.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is not, so can he have a C4? It is

    .           P-49

      1  blue, I think.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  It is tab 3, I think, of that witness statement.
      3  This is very confusing, Mr Millar. It is certainly not
      4  your fault. That is your witness statement?
      5  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I have that anyway, yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have that anyway? There we go. You did not need the
      7  file at all. Can you turn to the second page of your
      8  witness statement, please? In the middle of the page
      9  there is a paragraph which begins “On one occasion”, do
    10  you see that?
    11  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to read it. “On one occasion, after the
    13  archives for the day, to my extreme annoyance, Mr Irving
    14  told me that he had secretly removed two plates from the
    15  archives to show to Andrew Neil, the Sunday Times editor
    16  who was also in Moscow at the time. These plates he had
    17  concealed in a James Bond-style fashion outside the
    18  Institute. I told him this was foolish and risked
    19  jeopardising the whole agreement – an opinion he thought
    20  to be rather ‘wimpish’. I insisted they be replaced the
    21  next day, which, to the best of my knowledge, they duly
    22  were.”
    23  Then if you skip a paragraph you see that, so as
    24  far as you were aware, you were not, I do not think, a
    25  party to this directly, the same thing seems to have
    26  happened with two more plates; is that right?

    .           P-50

      1  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is correct.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I only want to ask you two questions about that
      3  paragraph that I read out. First of all, are its contents
      4  true?
      5  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have to say “yes” because of the microphone.
      7  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: I am sorry, yes, they are true.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is a recording microphone. Thank you. The only other
      9  question is this. What do you mean when you write,
    10  “These plates he had concealed in a James Bond-style
    11  fashion outside the Institute”?
    12  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: He had, to the best of my recollection, prepared two
    13  postcards which were slightly larger than the glass
    14  plates, or of cardboard material, one of which certainly
    15  had a postcard picture on it, had wrapped the plates in
    16  these and left them on a piece of waste ground about 100
    17  yards from the Institute.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it was clear to you that he knew that he should not be
    19  taking the plates?
    20  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Quite.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then only one other thing: now will you please take the
    22  other file, the one you were first given, which is that
    23  one, and turn in it to I think it is page A37? It is in
    24  the front tab of the file. At A36 you see what the
    25  document is. It looks like a document from a memo from
    26  you and John Witheroe to the Editor of the Sunday Times.

    .           P-51

      1  It is dated 2nd July ’92. Do you have that?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you turn over to the second page, which is A37, and
      4  look at paragraph 10: “We have also carried out our own
      5  handwriting and forensic tests on the glass plates and
      6  microfilm. These are not conclusive, but all indicate
      7  that the plates are not recently made and that the writing
      8  is that of Goebbels, although one of the tests seemed to
      9  indicate that they could have been copies. (We have not
    10  been able to do all tests because this would have meant
    11  destroying or severely damaging the plates. See below in
    12  case this becomes an issue).
    13  “Asked how we got hold of two of the plates for
    14  tests, I suggest we fudge it by saying we have been
    15  supplied with two plates and that they are now safely back
    16  in the archives”.
    17  I am not criticising you for anything, Mr Millar
    18  — apart from anything else, you are not a party to this
    19  action — but what was it that suggested to you the need
    20  to fudge?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: There was nothing that suggested that we need to fudge it.
    22  If you see, it was hypothetical. The question is if we
    23  are asked. The point was that the Times, as I repeat, the
    24  Sunday Times was very concerned about authenticity of
    25  these plates because of the Hitler’s Diaries fiasco and,
    26  therefore, there was some concern that we should be seen

    .           P-52

      1  to avoid any mistake again, and the question was whether
      2  and how we had got hold of these, we were obviously very
      3  concerned at this time nothing had been made known about
      4  the diaries. We did not want any other newspapers to get
      5  wind of what we were doing.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In particular, you did not want it to be known that these
      7  two plates which you brought back to this country via
      8  Munich to be tested for authenticity that they had been
      9  nicked — I know they were returned — if I may use a
    10  common expression?
    11  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, actually. I am going to disagree. As far as I know,
    12  the two plates that were nicked, as you put it, were those
    13  that were put on the piece of waste land overnight.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What about the next two?
    15  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Those were nicked and returned, and that had nothing to do
    16  with these — we are talking about two separate plates
    17  here and, as you will see from my witness statement, I was
    18  not present at the time the second two plates were taken
    19  back to the UK. I do not know the exact circumstances,
    20  I did assume that they were with permission.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You assumed they were with permission?
    22  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, I did.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Look back at your witness statement, will you, the second
    24  page? I will put it this way: do you know now,
    25  Mr Millar, that they were not taken with permission?
    26  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Sorry, was that a question?

    .           P-53

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, it was. I am sorry. It is difficult when I
      2  am asking you a question and somebody else answers it.
      3  Mr Millar, you do know now, do you not, that those two
      4  plates that were brought back to England were not taken
      5  with permission?
      6  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, I do not actually. I do not know that.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am grateful to Miss Rogers. In the Moscow file,
      8  Mr Millar, could you look, in the light of that last
      9  answer, at page A28 in the front section of the file?
    10  There is a document whose format is not familiar to me,
    11  but I expect you will recognize it. What is it exactly?
    12  It is headed: “Catch gubby” — is it some kind of
    13  computer print out?
    14  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Sorry?
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is it some kind of computer print out?
    16  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, oh, it is. I recognize it. Yes, it is —-
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You do recognize it?
    18  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: It is — yes, I do recognize it. Indeed, it is an
    19  internal print out on the Old News International printer.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it is a Sunday Times document?
    21  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: It is.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and do you know who wrote it?
    23  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: It tells me at the top. It was, without looking at in
    24  great detail, if you would like me to take a minute I can
    25  do that, but it appears to have been done on Susan
    26  Douglas’s computer.

    .           P-54

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Maybe it was done on her computer, but where would
      2  show get her information from?
      3  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Would you like me to spend a few minutes just reading the
      4  document?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes of course, do.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Well, look, just let us hurry up because I do not
      7  want to detain you longer than you need be here. Can you
      8  just read the third paragraph?
      9  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Actually, I would like to read the whole thing if we are
    10  going to talk about it.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: OK.
    12  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes, I am not familiar with it and, in fact, it is a memo
    13  that was composed by myself and Susan Douglas jointly for
    14  submission to Andrew Neil.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So may I now read the third paragraph on page A28?
    16  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Irving has taken liberties in our name in Moscow
    18  ‘borrowing’ two plates and taking them out of the country
    19  and will shamelessly take more. I would be very wary, as
    20  I am sure would John and Matthew, of giving any impression
    21  over there that Irving represents us in any way except in
    22  this affair. He is not above trading on our reputation
    23  for his own profit”. Now, are those your thoughts?
    24  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: They are the thoughts of Susan and myself combined, yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you were — I do not blame you for getting in a muddle
    26  — then that the second two plates which were brought

    .           P-55

      1  back here were also nicked?
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: At the time it certainly appears that I was, yes.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Thank you, Mr Millar.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I, before you re-examine, Mr Irving, just
      5  ask one question?
      6  Looking at what you know Mr Irving did, do you
      7  take the view that he did break an agreement? You used
      8  the term “borrow”, in inverted commas, but do you take the
      9  position that he was breaking an agreement with the
    10  Russians?
    11  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No agreement that we made specifically touched on the
    12  terms of whether or not the plates should be taken out of
    13  the archive. It may have been and it could have been
    14  understood, certainly, that they were not to be taken out,
    15  but there was no formal agreement.
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Could have been understood?
    17  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: It could have been understood, yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Thank you. Mr Irving, you have a right to re-examine.
    19  < Re-examined by MR IRVING
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: By the use by Mr Rampton of the word “nicked”, do you
    21  understand “stolen”?
    22  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes. I understood he was using it in inverted commas and
    23  I used the same verbal inverted commas around them on the
    24  way back.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: And do you understood by the word “stolen” the permanent
    26  depriving of somebody else of their rightful property?

    .           P-56

      1  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Yes.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am bound to say, Mr Irving, I did not
      3  really understand Mr Rampton’s use of the word “nicked” to
      4  mean that, but perhaps he would clarify that.
      5  MR IRVING:  Well, your Lordship moves in different circles from
      6  myself.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  No, no, not only did I put the word “nicked” in
      8  inverted commas, but I actually said to the witness,”And,
      9  of course, I do not mean stolen because they were taken
    10  back”, and I knew it.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That was my understanding.
    12  MR IRVING:  His final words were that “Mr Irving nicked these
    13  plates”, and the circles that I move in the word “nicked”
    14  certainly means permanently depriving somebody of their
    15  rightful property which is stealing.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is why I invited him to clarify and he
    17  has now done so.
    18  MR IRVING:  We have now clarified. Thank you very much.
    19  (To the witness): So there can no doubt on two matters,
    20  Mr Millar, at no time have I permanently deprived the
    21  Russian archives of their property?
    22  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Not to my knowledge.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Not to your knowledge. You inadvertently stated that,
    24  “the plates on the waste ground were left there
    25  overnight, in my view”. Is it not true that, in fact, the
    26  plates were removed from the archives for a couple of

    .           P-57

      1  hours, left in the cardboard protecting container there
      2  behind the wall on the waste ground until the close of the
      3  archives and then handed to the photographer so they were
      4  not —-
      5  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That is correct, indeed true. The intention was to
      6  present them to Andrew Neil the next morning, and, as I
      7  recall, we went back to the archive, you should me where
      8  they were. I expressed horror and at that stage we said,
      9  “Let us take these now the archive is closed”. I asked
    10  if we should take them back immediately, but the archive
    11  was then closed, so, I said, “Right, we will take them to
    12  show to the editor and, hopefully, they can be replaced
    13  first thing in the morning without anyone noticing they
    14  have ever been gone”.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Precisely, and this, of course, had been the subject of a
    16  formal admission by myself. Once more, Mr Millar, did you
    17  or I or the Sunday Times at any time by our actions
    18  endanger these plates?
    19  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: With the exception of having left them for those few hours
    20  on the piece of waste ground, no.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you very much. No further questions.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I ask you one further question,
    23  Mr Millar? Did the Sunday Times pay Mr Irving the agreed
    24  fee?
    25  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: That I think you will find is the subject of a separate
    26  legal action. There was —-

    .           P-58

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: It does not stop you answering the question.
      2  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: No, there was certainly a fee agreed, but at some stage a
      3  technical argument arose (to which I am not fully privy)
      4  about whether or not Mr Irving was in breach of that
      5  contract, and a lengthy, certainly a legal case was begun
      6  (and eventually settled) as to whether or not he should be
      7  paid any or all of the sums owing to him.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, well, I will not pursue that. Thank you very. You
      9  are free to go.
    10  A. [Mr Peter Millar]: Thank you.
    11  < (The witness stood down)

    Part IV: David Irving Cross-examined by Richard Rampton, continued (59.12-88.21)

    Section 59.12 to 75.25

    12  < MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
    13  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want a break, Mr Irving?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: No, sir, I will go straight on — unless your Lordship
    16  wishes a five-minutes adjournment or Mr Rampton?
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I am going to abbreviate this as far as
    18  I sensibly can.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: We are on Moscow now, right?
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, I am only on Moscow and then I finish. Mr Irving,
    21  you had heard of the existence of these microfiches at
    22  Moscow, I do not know when, but some time early in ’92,
    23  was it?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Around about May 6th 1992.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You thought you had a deal with Macmillan to publish them
    26  if you could, as it were, get your hands on them?

    .           P-59

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You did not?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, what is the truth?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I was writing a biography on Dr Joseph Goebbels which was
      6  under contract with Macmillan Limited at that time.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And what happened to that contract with Macmillan?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: In September 1992 I wrote them a letter asking if I could
      9  buy the rights back from them because I was not happy with
    10  them as a publisher.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am sorry. You are going to have to be a little
    12  bit more, what shall we say, less opaque about this in a
    13  minute. We will use the file, if we may. Can you turn to
    14  page A1? It is not the first page. It is about the tenth
    15  page. A1 in the first section of that file?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Is this the one called “Background Information”?
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It should be a facsimile from you to the Editor of the
    18  Sunday Times dated 26th May 1992 marked “confidential”,
    19  eight pages in.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Eight pages in?
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The numbers to look for, though they sometimes look like
    22  4s, are called A1, etc., in a black circle at the bottom
    23  right-hand corner of the page. I am sorry, as with all
    24  the other documents, there is even one called 007 which is
    25  interesting in the context.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I have my A01 begins “Background Information”, is that

    .           P-60

      1  correct?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, that is 01. I am sorry. It is a complete muddle. If
      3  you could find A1 without the O?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: How could I be so stupid? Right, now I have it.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In strictest confidence to Andrew Neil. “Dear Mr Neil” —
      6  this is your document, is it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “I have just had an important deal collapse under my feet,
      9  thanks to the prissiness of my New York publishers who
    10  felt it was unethical”. Now, is that a reference to your
    11  Macmillan deal?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is it a reference to?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: On May 6th — I will be very brief — or approximately May
    15  6th, I was informed in Munich by a personal friend of the
    16  existence of the glass plates in the Moscow archives.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: This friend suggested that I should go to Moscow and if
    19  I took 10 or $20,000 in cash I could buy these glass
    20  plates from the archivists. I contacted the American
    21  publishers of my Goebbels biography and asked if they
    22  would increase the advance on the book to provide the
    23  dollars necessary for this adventure. For four or five
    24  days the American publishers were very excited.
    25  I arranged the trip to Moscow, or I began arranging it,
    26  and when I was far advanced, suddenly the American

    .           P-61

      1  publishers decided that the idea of buying glass plates
      2  from the Moscow archives looked unethical and they were
      3  not prepared to get involved with it.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, and you say that those American publishers were not
      5  called Macmillan?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: That Goebbels book went through so many hands, I would
      7  have remind myself.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: When you said Macmillan, of course, I am assuming that you
    10  are referring to the English Macmillan publisher who did
    11  have the rights in the book.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am sorry. I did not know they were different.
    13  I am awfully sorry. I am sure that they are related —
    14  they would have to be, would they not?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: They were not related. They spell themselves differently
    16  too.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They were not, oddly enough, no. I think
    18  that is right.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Were not? Oh, well, that is my ignorance. I am
    20  sorry. Let us turn —-
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I know the Editor concerned was Don Fehr, but he also
    22  meant from — that is F-E-H-R —–
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is a perfectly natural confusion on your part brought
    24  about by my ignorance. Can we turn to your diaries,
    25  please, your diary entries, section B of this file?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-62

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: On page B2 is your entry for 26th May.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: “Macmillan Incorporated”, that is correct, yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Rose 6.45 a.m., ran round Mayfair 97 per cent hot.”
      6  Never mind the next bit. “A hectic day from which Telecom
      7  much profited with calls to and from Moscow, New
      8  York, … (reading to the words) … Frohlich. Susie
      9  Terplar was the person that actually typed the entries.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: She was my assistant, yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “The fuss was engendered first by attempts to get the
    12  Moscow invitation needed, then tickets, then visas.
    13  Finally, at 5 p.m. came a totally unexpected fax from
    14  Macmillan Inc”. So you were, sort of, preparing to go on
    15  behalf of Macmillan at this stage if I have understood —
    16  Macmillan Inc?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: On behalf of myself as the author, but I was obviously
    18  raising the funds by hook or by crook.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, plainly. “Refusing [to] put up the funds after all,
    20  as they could not be party to a ‘bribe’!”
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That was their position?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you have seen all the correspondence in discovery.
    24  Their message said, “It looks like we are trying to bribe
    25  a Russian official” —-
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.

    .           P-63

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: — “and this looks unethical to us”.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, whereas — I am not taking any point on this — your
      3  position was that you might need to pay for the right to
      4  use them?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: In two lines: The Soviet Union had collapsed. The
      6  archive system was in total disarray. They could not even
      7  afford to pay their own wages. We were doing the
      8  archivist a favour by bringing him $20,000 in cash.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do not think any criticism is being
    10  made or could be made.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, well, having been publicly flogged for the last three
    12  or four days, I always assumed that was going to be —-
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but you are not being at the moment.
    14  That is the point I am trying to make.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I deliberately read that so that everybody should
    16  know that you put the word “bribe” in quotes and then put
    17  an exclamation mark after it.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Whatever your publishers might have thought, it was not
    20  something you agreed with?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: No. It was not. The Hoover Library, the Stamford
    22  University, very many major American institutions had
    23  already bought large parts of the Russian archives over
    24  the previous weeks. There was a major sale going on.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: As I say, I really do want to rattle through the periphery
    26  of this as quickly as I can. I know you suspect me and

    .           P-64

      1  I understand why, but you must not always be suspicious.
      2  Is it right that you were also concerned, and again I say
      3  quite properly concerned, as an historian and an author
      4  that the people in Munich might get there first?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And spoil your coup, your scoop, whatever you would like
      7  to call it?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do historians take perfectly natural pride in being the
    10  first there?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now I want to whiz on, if I may? Did you eventually enter
    13  into a contract with the Sunday Times?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: After — it was a contract in two stages. There was a
    15  letter of agreement that they would fund the first
    16  exploratory trip which I made with Mr Millar to Moscow in
    17  mid June 1992 —-
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: — when we would establish whether this was feasible,
    20  whether the plates were there, whether they were genuine,
    21  what their contents were, and whether the Russians were
    22  open to a piece of horse trading; and then after I came
    23  back from Moscow and we established to the satisfaction of
    24  the Sunday Times that I had obtained the material, or was
    25  in the process of obtaining it, then a contract was drawn
    26  up in a proper legal manner.

    .           P-65

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And I know that you fell out in some way (and I am not
      2  interested in why unless you want to tell his Lordship in
      3  re-examination) you fell out with them for some reason and
      4  they did not actually pay you, the contract —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the reason is, of course, material to this case —
      6  we will find that later — but the deal was they would pay
      7  me £75,000 plus VAT for the particular —-
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did they ever pay any of that?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: They paid one-third of it, yes, and they welshed on the
    10  rest.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Did you say it was not material?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: The reasons why they welshed on the deal is evident from
    13  the discovery. They came under immense world wide
    14  pressure. Andrew Neil said he had never experienced
    15  anything like it.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Oh, you mean we are back at the traditional enemy,
    17  sort of thing, are we?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, if you wish to encapsulate it in that phrase —-
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am trying to use shorthand.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: — but you have seen the discovery, you have seen the
    21  documents.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But none of them from anybody who is a Defendant in this
    23  case, I hope?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then I do not see that it is material. Mr Irving, so you
    26  had two incentives to make this exercise a success?

    .           P-66

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Three incentives.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One was that you would then, as I say, quite properly get
      3  the —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Kudos.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — kudos for having the job which, I have no doubt, you
      6  properly did when you had done it?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the second incentive was financial because you had a
      9  good contract?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the third incentive was that I wanted the material
    11  for my biography of Dr Goebbels.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Right, that is three very sensible (and I make no
    13  criticism) three strong incentives to be the first there?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: That is right, and the people you call the traditional
    15  enemy had precisely the same incentives for stopping me.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You knew, however, that the Sunday Times — this is after
    17  the Hitler diaries fiasco, was it not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: The Hitler diary fiasco in April 1993.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly. So you knew that the Sunday Times would be very
    20  wary, and no doubt they told you so, of getting their
    21  fingers burned a second time?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Andrew Neil sad to me, “We are very wary about this here
    23  in the office, as soon as we hear the word Nazis and
    24  everybody gets very nervous”, and my response was,
    25  “Andrew, this is the chance, I am giving the Sunday Times
    26  a chance to rehabilitate themselves”.

    .           P-67

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One of the conditions, therefore, of this deal was no
      2  doubt that the Sunday Times had to be satisfied of the
      3  authenticity of the plates?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: At some stage, either before or after the first trip, they
      5  made a contractual condition that I should obtained the
      6  opinion of experts on the content of the diaries, and that
      7  they should have other means of verifying of the integrity
      8  of the actual material.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And that in due is what happened, was it not?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You will see have seen from this trial that I attach
    11  great importance to the integrity of the document.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you turn in the same tab of the same file to page B7
    13  to your diary entry of 10th June 1992?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Rose 7.45 a.m. wretched breakfast at Cosmo”, is that an
    16  anagram of Moscow or a misprint?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: I think it is “Cosmos”.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Cosmos, is it?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: To looks to me like an anagram of Moscow, but never mind.
    21  “With dried salami”, etc., yes, I sympathise with you.
    22  “At 10 a.m. at the archives continued methodically
    23  reading the microfiches and flagging in catalogue. It was
    24  drizzling with rain. I illicitly borrowed the fiche we
    25  had found covering the weeks before the war broke out, and
    26  took it out of the archives at lunch for copying (in case

    .           P-68

      1  the Germans managed to prevent this)”.
      2  Will you explain exactly what that means?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I knew from my contact in Munich that the head of the
      4  German Federal Archive System, Professor Karlenburg, was
      5  due to visit Moscow a few days later, and he was coming
      6  effectively with a large empty suitcase to pick up all the
      7  looted Nazis’ documents, and my experience then was that
      8  when these documents get back into German archives they
      9  vanish for several years and are unable to the
    10  international community for historians. This has happened
    11  again and again and again. So it was important on the
    12  basis of what you have is what you have got, by hook or by
    13  crook to get these vital materials out of the KGB archives
    14  and make them available to the world of historians, which
    15  is what I did.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, whether or not you had a written agreement with
    17  the Russians, which I understand you did not have, you
    18  describe to your own diary your conduct in taking this
    19  fiche as illicit?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Totally illicit. I am deeply ashamed to have done that.
    21  You do not normally go into archives and remove materials,
    22  even though of course they are going to put them back the
    23  next day, but desperate situations call for desperate
    24  remedies. This was an archive with no copying
    25  facilities. It had no microfiche reader. There was no
    26  means of reading the materials they had. They did not

    .           P-69

      1  know what they had.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: When you took it outside, and I do not know what Mr Millar
      3  really meant, I did not really understand it, but he put
      4  it in some kind of envelope when he took it outside
      5  disguised as something, that is why he said “James Bond”?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it was not disguised as something. Obviously these
      7  were glass plates.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not interested in that.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: You just mentioned this. I just said they were properly
    10  packaged.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I am not suggesting they were not. You took it
    12  out. You say: “I tucked the envelope with the glass plate
    13  into a hiding place before re-entering”?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What sort of a hiding place?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Behind a wall.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Was it still raining?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: No. Certainly I would not have left it standing in the
    19  rain obviously. It was very well wrapped in plastic and
    20  cardboard.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I see. We can take this quite shortly now I think?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, I am not following. What was the
    23  point of tucking the envelope into a hiding place before
    24  re-entering?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I took it out at the lunch break, concealed it, noting
    26  where I concealed it, and I would come out then at the end

    .           P-70

      1  of the archive closing, pick it up, take it to the
      2  photographers, the Sunday Times office, have all pictures,
      3  the images printed.
      4  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: It was prior to taking it back to England?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: No, my Lord. This was in the middle of my visit to
      6  Moscow. We then had these glass plates printed up in
      7  Moscow and took them back the first thing the next morning
      8  and put them back in the box. That same day the archivist
      9  said, “Sure, borrow some more”, and he allowed us to
    10  borrow more and we did the same again.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  Can you turn over page to your entry of 11th June
    12  which is B8. Can I start at 10.30 because I think we have
    13  had enough of your breakfasts in Moscow: “10.30 a.m. taxi
    14  to the archives. I return the borrow August 1939 fiche”,
    15  that is the one we were talking about, is it not?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Why.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it had stayed out overnight, had it not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but not out in the open.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I understand that.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: It had gone walkies.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Millar was wrong in saying it was returned the same
    22  day?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think he did say that.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then I misunderstood. “I returned the borrowed August
    25  1939 fiche and borrowed two by the same means”, that means
    26  illicitly, does it not?

    .           P-71

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is March, June, September 1934, that is the night of
      3  the long knives period?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: A vitally important period in Nazi history. It has been
      5  concealed from the world for 55 years up to that point and
      6  I found it.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Including the Rome purge”?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “I was overjoyed to find these two fiches. That clinches
    10  the importance of this stay”. Over the page, please: “We
    11  left the archives at 5 p.m. I passed the hidden plates”,
    12  is it?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “To Peter Millar to get it”, it must be “them” “printed up
    15  tonight”?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then you took them via —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Actually it looks like one plate rather than two.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I know. Never mind. It was in fact I think two because
    20  we know from the documents that two plates were brought
    21  back for testing.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, these obviously were not the ones brought back
    23  because we had them printed up that night and, therefore,
    24  put back the next morning.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you borrow one illicitly put it back and then two more
    26  and put them back, but the two that came to England, I do

    .           P-72

      1  not really mind which they were, the two that came to
      2  England were also taken illicitly?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I have to halt you there and say that this is now
      4  June 11th which is the day before I returned to England.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I do think that these ones were borrowed illicitly,
      7  because certainly on that first trip Dr Bondarev allowed
      8  us, he permitted us to take some plates out and have them
      9  printed up overnight. So that may be these two.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. The two that went back to London via Munich were
    11  taken illicitly, were they not? There were five in all.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but if Peter Millar had them printed up overnight
    13  I would not have had to take them back to England to get
    14  printed. The ones that I took out, which would have been,
    15  I would have taken them out on June 12th —-
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I do not know what time you —-
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Presumably.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not think you went back to the institute of whatever
    19  it was before you left for Munich. We had better look at
    20  the diary.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am not going to argue about this, because of
    22  course I have made a total admission in writing to you on
    23  the question we of which ones were taken out and which
    24  ones were left.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I know. I will finish now with one question. For the
    26  sake of your good name and good standing as an historian,

    .           P-73

      1  for the sake of £75,000, for the sake of beating the
      2  Munich Institute to the line and for the sake of your
      3  Goebbels book, on two occasions at least you illicitly
      4  took valuable slides out of this Institute and on one of
      5  those occasions you transferred them via aeroplane to
      6  London?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Are you proud of yourself?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I said earlier, no, I am not. It is not kind of thing one
    10  wants to do as an historian. But when you are dealing
    11  with the Russian archives which at any moment may seal up
    12  again, as they have in the meantime, so these plates are
    13  no longer available and the Germans are sitting on the
    14  plates too, they are just beginning to publish them now
    15  eight years after I was there. I think I did a valuable
    16  service to the community. Every single plate that I had
    17  copied I gave copies of the prints that I made to both
    18  German archives, both in Koblenz and also to the Goebbels’
    19  archives at his home town. So I made them immediately
    20  available to the world of historians. So I did a service.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The end may have been worthy. The result may have been
    22  desirable, but the means that you used, perhaps you would
    23  agree, were, morally speaking, I am not interested in the
    24  legality —-
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: They were illicit.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Illicit and would you accept the word rather shabby?

    .           P-74

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I just want to be clear about
      3  this. Shabby, something not to be proud of, but is it the
      4  case that is put to Mr Irving that he broke an agreement?
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It must be, if he uses the word “illicitly”, it
      6  must be that he knows impliedly he does not have
      7  permission, which is a breach of an agreement.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we ask Mr Irving that. Did you know that
      9  what you were doing amounted to breach of an
    10  agreement —-
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I disagree in view of the fact —-
    12  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — with the archivists?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: — in view of the act that they allowed us to borrow the
    14  plates anyway, it was obviously neither here nor there to
    15  them, and there was certainly no agreement either verbal
    16  or written.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  There is no written or verbal agreement, but —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: On the contrary.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — as I think you told us earlier, no self-respecting
    20  historian would deliberately remove such valuable material
    21  from an archive without the permission of the archivist in
    22  the ordinary way?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think that I damaged the world of historians one
    24  bit. In fact I think I benefited them by having done it
    25  the way I did.

    Section 75.26 to 88.21

    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is not an answer to my question, but it really does

    .           P-75

      1  not matter. Are you quite certain in your own mind that
      2  at no stage during the trip of these plates illicitly
      3  taking plates from Moscow to London, they were in any
      4  danger of being damaged en route?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: You should have seen the packaging I put them in.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where did you put them, in a suitcase or your hand
      7  luggage?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: They were put into this hard suitcase down there. They
      9  were heavily wrapped in foam packaging and with layers of
    10  cardboard. They were safer with me than they had been for
    11  55 years in the Russian archives.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Hand luggage?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Hand luggage, and they were safer with me than they had
    14  been in those flimsy boxes for 55 years with the Russians
    15  boxes, in which boxes many of the plates were already
    16  broken.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Had you any idea what means might be used to test the
    18  plates for authenticity when you got home?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It was obvious they were going to test the plates
    20  glass by probably spectroscopy or by similar non-invasive
    21  methods, and similarly also the emulsion. They would have
    22  chosen the part of the emulsion that was not written upon,
    23  so to speak.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, in the event the emulsion test was not done for fear
    25  of damage, that is right, is it not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: If you say so.

    .           P-76

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am only telling you what the Sunday Times tells me on a
      2  piece of paper.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: We produced the reports in discovery from Pilkington and
      4  from the laboratories, the photographic laboratories. We
      5  carried out the appropriate or rather the Sunday Times
      6  carried out the appropriate test.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You broke your journey I think in Munich, did you not?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: The flight to Moscow was made from Munich because there
      9  were —-
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, but did you not break your journey and go to Rome?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: On June 9th?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. That was from Moscow?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: No. On June 9th I flew from Munich to Rome and back.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think it was 13th. If we look at the diary page
    15  B10 —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — I think you went on 13th from Munich to Rome and back
    18  again?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where were the plates when you went to Rome?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: They were with me at all times. No, I am sorry. I am
    22  sorry, they were not. When I went to Rome I carried just
    23  a very small bag with me containing not even my
    24  typewriter. It contained just my overnight things for the
    25  stay in the university and then to come back to Munich,
    26  and I left that case in the hotel safe.

    .           P-77

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: With the plates in it?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You were not concerned there might be a fire or something
      4  of that kind or are the safes fireproof?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, that thought did not cross my mind admittedly.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: While you were in Munich, can you turn the page to B11,
      7  four paragraphs down —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — you say that you phoned Susie, that is Susie Terplar,
    10  from airport?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Book me into … room 727. 7 p.m. back down to her and
    13  phoned Altans.” Who is Altans?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: He is a young German hot head.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What do you mean by a “hot head”?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He turned out to be a hot head.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is a hot head in this context?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: A typical — a political hot head. He started off pretty
    19  level and respectable, but he gradually flaked out.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In which direction does his hot headedness lead him?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, over the map really. He was right-winger, he was a
    22  left-winger. He went to Israel. He ended up in the pay
    23  of the German Intelligence services. It is difficult to
    24  fix him on the map at all.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Was he on the right at this stage in history?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know what you would call the right.

    .           P-78

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If he is arranging a big meeting for Ernst
      2  Zundel, it is fair to say he is not on the left.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Put it this way, anything —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: I think he was a revisionist. I think that is a fair word
      5  to pin on him.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Certainly I would accept that he was a revisionist. By
      7  “on the right” I mean somebody who would not approve of
      8  coloured immigration into Germany or anywhere else in
      9  Europe.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think he would actively advocate it.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “He is delighted to hear my voice. Has arranged a big
    12  meeting for Ernst Zundel.” That is our old friend from
    13  Toronto, is it not?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot see any reference in this paragraph to coloured
    15  immigration.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I ask you a question. You have answered it. “Has
    17  arranged a big meeting for Ernst Zundel”?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is our old friend from Toronto, is it not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “To address this evening at the Zunfthouse restaurant.
    22  Would I come and speak too. Answer: Provided you take
    23  three boxes of my books along to sell”, and then you add
    24  the wry note, “All’s well that ends well.”
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did Mr Zundel speak at this meeting?

    .           P-79

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why? You were there.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I have a record or a habit of not bothering to
      4  attend other people’s speeches if I can possibly avoid it,
      5  and if I have had an exhausting day flying down to Rome
      6  and back I would not have hung around to listen to
      7  somebody speaking.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not sure I can really accept that answer, I am
      9  afraid.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: You were not listening what I just said. I had had an
    11  exhausting flight down to Rome and back under the
    12  circumstances you are familiar with and I was not likely
    13  to hang around to listen to somebody speak.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sorry, what time in the evening does Zundel speak
    15  then or do you not even know that?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Why should I know after eight years?
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will tell you. Look at the bottom of the page: “8 p.m.
    18  taxi Zunfthouse, around 120 people packed into the
    19  restaurant, much applause, Zundel spoke”?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on Goebbels’
    22  plans”?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You were then when Zundel was speaking?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I was certainly in the restaurant, but that does not mean
    26  to say that I am listening to what he is saying. If you

    .           P-80

      1  know what he has said you can put it to me and I will say,
      2  yes, I heard him say this it or not.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have no idea what he said. I am asking you. You were
      4  there.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I confirmed from this diary I was in the restaurant. It
      6  is a very big restaurant like a typical German beer hall.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, you told us a moment ago that you would not
      8  have got there in time to here Mr Zundel speak because you
      9  would not have been interested.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: That is not exactly what I said.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is simply false statement.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry, I do not make false statements under oath.
    13  I am careful not to and the words you have used are not
    14  the words I said. I did not say “I did not get there in
    15  time to hear him speak”.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You tried to give us the impression you were not there
    17  when Zundel spoke.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: No. I gave the impression that if I have had an
    19  exhausting day flying to Rome and back, exhausting for the
    20  reasons you are familiar with, then I would not have hung
    21  around to hear somebody speaking. I would have gone and
    22  tucked myself down somewhere with a glass of beer or with
    23  a cup of coffee and read the local newspaper.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Then after an interval I spoke half an hour on the
    25  Goebbels’ finds. I one ‘plate'”?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-81

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does that mean?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: We had had some prints made, I had had some prints made
      3  that day in the Munich archives I think, in the Institute.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is one of the borrowed plates?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct, yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That you had printed?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That is right. If I put it in quotation marks then that
      8  tells me I did not show the actual glass, but I showed the
      9  print I had made of it.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who took the plates back to Moscow after they had been
    11  tested in this country?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It should be evident. I think it was July 4th or July
    13  3rd — July 2nd the two slides were legally borrowed or
    14  returned by Sasha during the date of the archives.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we turn on —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: “July 3rd at 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was seated in a
    17  car across the street.” That was Jonathan Bastable who
    18  had arrived from London as a courier bringing the plates
    19  from the laboratories.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Carry on, will you.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Still July 3rd: At 11.58 a.m. I walked out. He was
    22  seated in a car across the street. He handed the glass
    23  plates back to me. I asked him to conduct the interviews
    24  requested by Andrew Neil re the authenticity of the
    25  provenance of the microfiche”. In other words, he was to
    26  speak with the Russian archivists to ask what they knew

    .           P-82

      1  about where they came from, the glass plates.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will read the next bit if you are not willing to.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I wanted you to read the next paragraph. It is my fault.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: “I replaced the two plates, March to September 1934, in
      6  the box of 13, making a total of 15. Unfortunately, the
      7  archivist told me today that the archives will not under
      8  their new agreement with ‘the Germans’ let me see the
      9  other big boxes again. Operation stable door, I already
    10  have nearly all that was necessary”.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I can understand that. It does not need an explanation.
    12  So you put back the two plates that you borrowed from
    13  London, is that right?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: That I borrowed for London and had now come back from
    15  London and they are put back where they belonged.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: After about three weeks?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We will go, if we may, to the bottom of the page at 1.50.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: “At 1.50 p.m. archivist asked me outside into the corridor
    20  and with embarrass asked me if I had taken plates out of
    21  the collection. I replied that we had borrowed plates
    22  with permission but had returned all those that we had
    23  borrowed intact.”
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That was not true, was it?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it was, I suppose, suppressio vale rather than
    26  suppressio falsi. I have no original items from their

    .           P-83

      1  collection in my possession. Only the copies we or they
      2  had made. I then voluntarily hand wrote a declaration
      3  stating this and had it translated into Russian and signed
      4  both text and took a photocopy.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So, technically speaking, that was true of course.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know the legal, it is a boring expression, but do
      8  you know the lawyers’ expression swearing by the card?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Swearing by?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The card?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: No. That is legalese.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In other words, literally true but, as a matter of
    13  reality, a false declaration. Do you agree?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but no attempt had been made to conceal the fact that
    15  I had those glass plates. In Munich, for example, I took
    16  them into the printing room in the basement, showed them
    17  to the staff there, had them properly printed by the staff
    18  there. While I was in Munich I then had two of the
    19  pages — I am sorry, do I have your attention?
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Sorry.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: While I was in Munich I had two of pages sent upstairs to
    22  the Institute and asked them: Will you please verify
    23  these pages I have obtained from Moscow. I also
    24  simultaneously sent two pages to the German Federal
    25  archives in Koblenz and asked them to verify the
    26  handwriting as well. So I made not the slightest attempt

    .           P-84

      1  to conceal that I had those plates.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Except from the Russians?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Except from Russians.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Tatiana’s response when you revealed
      5  that you had actually removed them from the archive?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I then wrote the declaration, my Lord, saying that
      7  everything that had been removed the archives, using, so
      8  to speak, the passive voice, was back and that nothing was
      9  missing.
    10  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But was she shocked and horrified? That is what I am
    11  really getting at.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: No, because, of course, they had allowed my to. They knew
    13  perfectly well they had allowed me to take plates out as
    14  well. So when I gave her that statement which was really
    15  the statement she was asking for, and if you read on, my
    16  Lord — I am not sure if it is continued — she then told
    17  me a few minutes later at 2.05 p.m. that they were most
    18  grateful for this, as this was an allegation that had come
    19  from Munich. In other words, my rivals had ratted on me
    20  and had sent a fax to Moscow saying, “He has got some of
    21  the plates”.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I believe his Lordship may not have
    23  quite got the whole of the picture. One plate was removed
    24  and hidden for overnight?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Taken overnight and put back. You did not have permission

    .           P-85

      1  for that?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you have permission to take two plates which were
      4  later replaced?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Two and two. They gave us permission to take two and two,
      6  so we took out four plates with permission.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, they did not give you permission to take plates back
      8  to England for testing?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And Tatiana never knew about the first plate and she never
    11  knew (because you did not tell her) about the trip those
    12  plates made to England and back?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, thank you.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: But all this, of course, is the subject of a formal
    16  written admission which I made to you in this case over a
    17  year ago. So we could have spared a lot of this time.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am grateful.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not really material in the issue anyway, in my
    20  submission.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you aware of serious concern
    22  in archival circles that you might have significantly
    23  damaged the plates when you had them copied without
    24  archival permission?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: This is the allegation made in the book. We are not going
    26  to be able to test that allegation because we will not

    .           P-86

      1  have the chance of — I have not seen any evidence put in
      2  to that effect.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am asking you whether you are aware of any?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: No, I am not aware of it, my Lord. We now hear that the
      5  Russian archivists are not going to be called either. So
      6  it is going to be very difficult to establish the truth of
      7  that allegation.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see the force of that.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: But I shall try to lead evidence when my time comes to the
    10  effect that I have benefited the community of historians
    11  rather than having disadvantaged them.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, for the moment at least, until we get
    13  back, if we do, to right-wing extremism perhaps next week,
    14  that concludes my cross-examination at the moment.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask you because it is something
    16  that went through my mind in fact this morning about
    17  Dresden?
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The position on Dresden is that there is
    20  quite a lot of material on it.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. It is all in that file.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. We really spent, I am probably wrong
    23  about this, but it seemed to me that we really spent most
    24  of the time on Tagesbefehl 47. There is a good deal more
    25  and I just wondered again what the position in relation to
    26  Professor Evans’ other points on Dresden is.

    .           P-87

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge
      2  Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back into
      3  the arena. For my part, again, one has to make judgments
      4  in a case of this magnitude.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I quite understand.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Or we are going to be here for ever. I am, I am
      7  afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every point
      8  under the sun in the hope that something will come out.
      9  If there are points on Evans’ report that I have not
    10  taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision not
    11  to.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters
    13  relating to Dresden and putting documents to him.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Might I enquire, before I sit down, through your
    15  Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his
    16  cross-examination of Professor Evans might be?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Evans or Browning?
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Evans. Both actually, because I need to schedule
    19  both of them.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want to go back to your other role?
    21  < (The witness stood down)

    Part V: Closing Proceedings (88.22-93.5)

    22  MR IRVING:  I now wear my other hat and say that, in view of
    23  the revelation today that the defence are not proposing to
    24  call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the
    25  cross-examination that would have fallen on them will now
    26  fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their

    .           P-88

      1  expert reports.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are perfectly entitled to cross-examine
      3  any of the experts on anything subject to their
      4  entitlement to say, “I have not a clue and I do not know
      5  about that”.
      6  MR IRVING:  I can only do that of course if they are present.
      7  I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not suppose
      8  that would have much point.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You cannot do that for all sorts of reasons
    10  but there is no reason why you should not cross-examine
    11  Professor Evans about what is said in the other experts’
    12  reports that I am aware of anyway.
    13  MR IRVING:  I can put to Professor Evans the documents that
    14  I would have been putting to Professors Levin or Eatwell.
    15  It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also means
    16  inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into a
    17  hotel for some length of time.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we take them one at a time? Browning
    19  we have on Monday. His report is quite short, which is a
    20  virtue.
    21  MR IRVING:  Browning has many enemies around the world who have
    22  been funding me with material with which to challenge him.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How long is the challenge going to take?
    24  MR IRVING:  Two days for Professor Browning, I think.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Monday and Tuesday. Then Evans
    26  next?

    .           P-89

      1  MR IRVING:  Yes. February 7th we have probably half an hour or
      2  one hour of Sir John Kegan.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John Kegan
      4  first before we start on Browning?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would think that is better.
      6  MR IRVING:  That would make far more sense.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  Browning for two days, which brings us to the end
      8  of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday. Then
      9  Mr Irving’s day or whatever he needs to prepare, which
    10  would be Wednesday.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Start Professor Evans on Thursday.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans for
    13  Thursday. That also has, from Mr Irving’s point of view,
    14  the convenience that he then has three days off if he is a
    15  bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to get
    16  the ball rolling again on the following Monday.
    17  MR IRVING:  That is quite right. It sounds admirable.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What you have not yet answered is the enquiry
    19  about how long you are likely to cross-examine Professor
    20  Evans for?
    21  MR IRVING:  I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that
    22  because I shall have now to go through my two filing
    23  cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use
    24  against the other two and put it into the Evans slot. So
    25  it will be, I would say, probably four days.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  That is very helpful. That takes us to Wednesday

    .           P-90

      1  16th, I think. A day off will be the Thursday but, if I
      2  schedule Dr Longerich for Friday 18th, there is a risk
      3  that he will not be needed because Professor Evans does
      4  not finish until Thursday.
      5  MR IRVING:  Longerich is based in England, is he not?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  He is partly based in England and partly in
      7  Munich. If your Lordship would like me to, I will
      8  provisionally schedule him for Friday 18th, subject to
      9  Thursday being a clear day. If it is not, then we can
    10  bring him on Monday of the following week.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is kind of the last in the band anyway.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  He is the most flexible.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is the last too, is he not?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  No. There is Professor Funke, the Berlin
    15  political scientist.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. We have it mapped out for a sufficient
    17  period of time to enable plans to be made.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes we have.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Yes certainly.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So what now?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I am bit sterile about ideas because I do not have
    22  further questions on anything else.
    23  MR IRVING:  You are not going to cross-examine on the
    24  Adjutants?
    25  MR RAMPTON:  No. I think probably I am not going to.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say probably, it is getting towards

    .           P-91

      1  the time when it has to be certain.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  If I say I am not going to examine on the
      3  Adjutants and then I come back next week and say, Oh,
      4  I would like to cross-examine on the Adjutants, I foresee
      5  a problem. I prefer to leave it in the air, although the
      6  air in that particular balloon, if I do not do it now, is
      7  probably going to be fairly restricted. Can I put it like
      8  that?
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I think that is right really.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  I well understand the problem.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know you have had quite a task too.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  If I do not take the opportunity now I may have a
    13  problem, I well understand, in trying to find another way.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going to make a ruling one way or
    15  the other at the moment.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  I am grateful for that.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it is a bad thing from
    18  Mr Irving’s point of view or, to be honest, from my point
    19  of view if we have a short day today because I have fallen
    20  a bit behind, too.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I am not only slightly behind, I am, like
    22  Mr Irving and no doubt your Lordship, quite tired as well
    23  so I would not at all mind.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, does it not really suit you quite
    25  well that we should have a short day?
    26  MR IRVING:  It does indeed, my Lord. I have a business to run

    .           P-92

      1  and a family to run.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course. So what it comes to is 10.30 on
      3  Monday.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  I am grateful.
      5  (Adjourned until 10.30 on Monday, 7th February 2000)

    .           P-93