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    Day 13 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

    Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 3.7)

    1996 I. No. 113
      2  Royal Courts of Justice
      3  Strand, London
      4  Tuesday, 1st February 2000
      6  Before:
    10  Claimant -and-
    13  Defendants
    14  The Claimant appeared in person
    15  MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
    16  Second Defendants
    17  MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
    18  MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
    19  the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
    21  (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
    &Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
    22  Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
    23  (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)

    .           P-1

      1  <Day 13 Tuesday, 1st February 2000.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving?
      3  MR IRVING:  May it please the court. Your Lordship will have
      4  appreciated that the Defence relied to a certain degree on
      5  that document about crematorium capacities.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      7  MR IRVING:  I was going to ask your Lordship’s leave to have
      8  Professor van Pelt back in the box for 10 minutes to put
      9  further points about it to him which he may not be able to
    10  answer, but which would give the chance then for their
    11  other experts later on in the procedure to come back and
    12  address.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think your position on that document was
    14  that you doubted its authenticity. Is that fair?
    15  MR IRVING:  This is, I think, the only document whose integrity
    16  I am challenging.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it is the only one but it is
    18  certainly one that you are challenging.
    19  MR IRVING:  It is a very important document. I did not
    20  appreciate at the time that we went over it the degree to
    21  which Professor van Pelt was going to rely on it. You
    22  remember the diagram he drew with the tall green column,
    23  and so on?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Subject to what Mr Rampton says, as Professor
    25  van Pelt is here, I do not see any reason why he should
    26  not be further cross-examined, do you?

    .           P-2

      1  MR RAMPTON:  No, I do not mind at all, provided he does not.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure he has a choice.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  He has not got any of his papers and I do not have
      4  the document here myself.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure he will manage. Let us have him
      6  back, shall we, now? Professor, would you mind coming
      7  back?

    Part II: Professor Robert Jan van Pelt’s Cross-Examination by David Irving, continued (3.8-24.9)

      8  < PROFESSOR VAN PELT, recalled.
      9  < Further Cross-Examined by MR IRVING.
    10  MR IRVING:  It is in the Auschwitz core file No. 2. I have
    11  provided a set of documents to the Defence to operate
    12  with. It is under tab 4, item 49.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have it. What about these odds and
    14  ends, Mr Irving? Where are you suggesting we put them?
    15  MR IRVING:  If we come to Dresden during the day, my Lord.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  These are Dresden, are they?
    17  MR IRVING:  They are Dresden, my Lord.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is Kristallnacht, so this is my own report.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can he have a copy of K2?
    20  MR IRVING:  This is the actual document. The first thing is
    21  that Jean-Claude Pressac on page 247 himself points to the
    22  fact that this document did not surface until 1981. Would
    23  you agree with that, Professor?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I do not agree, because it was available in the Vienna
    25  trial. The first copy I found was in the Vienna trial.
    26  What I actually had in my hand was, I think, in file OM

    .           P-3

      1  461 at the Dejaco and Ertl trial.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: When was that trial?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That trial was in 1971.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you aware of any earlier occasions when that document
      5  surfaced, shall we say?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that Jan Sehn had it his hands in the early 50s,
      7  but I cannot be sure about that. When I talked about the
      8  Domberg version of the document — there is a version of
      9  that document, as far as I know, in the Hoess trial
    10  transcript, and that would have been there in ’48. I am
    11  not yet absolutely sure any more that I have seen that
    12  document in the Hoess trial transcript. I went through
    13  the Hoess trial transcripts. This was in 1990, but I am
    14  not absolutely any more sure that I have seen the Domburg
    15  copy in that transcript. I thought it was brought up — I
    16  have certainly seen the Domburg copy. A copy was
    17  elsewhere in the Auschwitz und Bauleitung files.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: These would be useful pointers to the defence to research
    19  the document over the next few days.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, Professor van Pelt, you referred to
    21  the Domburg document. I do not know what you mean by
    22  that.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is an archive in the DDR, in Domburg. They sent at
    24  a certain moment a copy of that document to the State
    25  Museum.
    26  MR IRVING:  Would that be in 1959 that that transfer took

    .           P-4

      1  place?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not sure. If indeed it is in the Hoess trial
      3  transcript it should have happened earlier because Hoess
      4  was in 1947, and then, of course, the other camp SS men
      5  were tried in 1948, and some of these files of the Hoess
      6  trial and that of Grapner and the others are
      7  actually combined, so it is kind of difficult to determine
      8  exactly what comes from where.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: The operative word in that response is the word “if” of
    10  course, “if it was in the trial”. Is it right that the
    11  document as published, or a version of the document as
    12  published, in a 1957 volume published by the East German,
    13  the DDR, the German Democrat Republic?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not sure. I wonder, do you remember — do you mean
    15  the Petsalt book?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not know the title of the book.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot comment on that. I am not absolutely sure,
    18  I think that Petsalt did it, but I thought the Petsalt
    19  book was later.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I now draw your attention to the document in front of
    21  you which is in facsimile? This is taken from the Defence
    22  bundle, the Auschwitz core file No. 2.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is an original document, is it not? It is not a
    25  postwar transcript, to the best of your knowledge?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, this is a copy of an original document. I mean a

    .           P-5

      1  wartime copy.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  A 1943 document?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      4  MR IRVING:  Yes. But you have not seen this particular one in
      5  the Auschwitz archives, or have you?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, this one is in Moscow.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: This one is in Moscow?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is from the captured files of the Auschwitz
    10  construction office which are at present in the Moscow
    11  archives?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: I draw your attention to the first line, the date 28th
    14  June 1943, right?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: How many documents have you seen in carbon copy which do
    17  not include the word “Auschwitz” and the following word,
    18  “Den”, D-E-N?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If this is a carbon copy, I presume it was a carbon copy
    20  of an original which was on a letter head.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: On the letter head it does actually say “Auschwitz”, so in
    23  carbon copies one can have quite often just the date and
    24  no information about the place.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But I cannot give a quantity in this case of how many

    .           P-6

      1  documents I have seen.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: We go down now to the next line, which is what I will call
      3  the letter register line, which begins with the
      4  No. 31550. You will notice that that number is typed in
      5  and not handwritten in?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: How many documents have you seen in the Auschwitz
      8  construction archives that have that letter register
      9  number typed in on a carbon copy?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot say. I have seen it, but I cannot say how many
    11  copies.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If I had my files with me right now, maybe I could show
    14  you examples of it typed in, but at the moment I am
    15  standing here just with one document.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: I agree. I draw the attention of the Defence to what
    17  I call this discrepancy. The next event in that line is
    18  an oblique, stroke, followed by “JA.”, JA period.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: How many items have you seen in the Auschwitz construction
    21  office files which have a period after the JA?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am sorry. I cannot answer that.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I appreciate that. I draw your attention to the
    24  next item which is an oblique stroke and the initials
    25  “Ne.-“. How many items have you in the Auschwitz
    26  construction office files which have the initials “Ne” as

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      1  a secretary, signing a letter dictated by Jahrling or
      2  Jahrnish, or by the man whose initials are “JA”?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not quite sure I follow that question.
      4  MR IRVING:  I am sorry. Let me phrase it in two parts. Am
      5  I correct in saying that the man whose initials are “JA”
      6  was the man who dictated the letter?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Jahrling?
      9  MR IRVING:  Yes. Am I correct in saying that the following
    10  initials “Ne” would be his secretary?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen any other letters whatsoever in the entire
    13  50,000 documents in the Auschwitz archives which have a
    14  secretary whose initials are “Ne”?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Since you brought up the challenge a few days ago,
    16  I thought it was an “M” here. I mean, it seems to read as
    17  “M”. I actually checked. I think I mentioned the name
    18  of the secretary a couple of days ago. It should be in
    19  the transcript because I checked. A 28 year old woman
    20  employed as a secretary at that moment in the
    21  Zentralbauleitung, I think.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You cannot remember her name?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Sorry, I cannot remember her name. I had all the
    24  documentation with me on Friday and on Wednesday.
    25  MR IRVING:  Very well. Are you aware that his secretary,
    26  actually her name began with an “L” or his name began with

    .           P-8

      1  an “L”, and that of the 50 items which are in the
      2  collection which we control or which I am advised exists,
      3  dictated by this man, 49 of them have the secretary’s
      4  initials as “L” or “Lm”?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot comment on that.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. And that in none of these cases is there a
      7  period after either the “JA” or after the secretary’s
      8  name? Can you comment on that?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I cannot comment on that.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Clearly, the reason I am saying this, my Lord, is to give
    11  the Defence a chance to come back possibly with documents
    12  proving me wrong on these points?
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think that is fair.
    14  MR IRVING:  Will you now look five or six lines lower down to
    15  the address: “SS Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-hauptamt,
    16  Antsgruppenchef C”. I draw your attention now to the
    17  following line. Is there anything missing from that line
    18  “SS Brigadefuhrer u. Generalmajor”?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Generalmajor SS that would have been normally.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Generalmajor der Waffen SS?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen any other documents whatsoever in the entire
    23  construction files of the Auschwitz office, either in
    24  Moscow or in the Auschwitz archives now, in which the
    25  words “Der Waffen SS” are omitted after the
    26  word”Generalmajor”?

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      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot comment on that.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, the address is improper in its present
      3  form; is that correct?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he cannot comment.
      5  MR IRVING:  Yes. Well, my Lord, it is an incorrect rank.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is an incorrect designation of a rank — a very
      7  important one because they were very particular,
      8  particularly if they had the rank of a Brigadier General.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can be a Brigadefuhrer.
    10  MR IRVING:  They were a Brigadier General in the SS and
    11  simultaneously they had a military rank in the Waffen SS.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you make it clear that it was an SS rank
    13  you were talking about, is that your point?
    14  MR IRVING:  No. What I am saying, my Lord, is that the correct
    15  rank, the proper designation, of Hans Kammler was SS
    16  Brigadefuhrer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS, and in every
    17  other document which exists it is written out in full.
    18  Those are the only comments I have to make on
    19  the face of the document, but possibly, Professor, you are
    20  qualified to comment on the content, and I am now purely
    21  dealing with the crematoria. Am I right in saying that
    22  crematorium (i) was already out of service on July 19th
    23  1943?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was taken out of service shortly before, but the
    25  crematorium was completely intact, which means it was
    26  never dismantled. The incinerations, because, as we have

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      1  seen, in May and June 1943 the total incineration capacity
      2  in the camp was so much larger than anything really the
      3  Germans needed at that moment.
      4  It was absolutely no problem to take out, to
      5  decommission the incinerators of crematorium (i) because
      6  they were next to the SS, the house of the Kommandant and
      7  the laseret and the Kommandantur, to move all incineration
      8  capacity to Birkenhau and so that the SS quarters at the
      9  Stammlager would be spared the kind of environmental
    10  disadvantages of having a working crematorium right next
    11  to it. So this crematorium remained actually on stand-by
    12  throughout 1943, and these incinerations were only finally
    13  dismantled in late ’44.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So the capacity still exists?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The capacity still exists.
    16  MR IRVING:  The capacity still exists. Are you aware that on
    17  the date of this document, June 28th 1943, crematorium No.
    18  (ii) was also out of service?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but it was being repaired at the time and it was
    20  brought back into service a month later.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are familiar, presumably, with the letter from the
    22  Topf firm dated July 23rd 1943, which states, “Since the
    23  crematorium has been out of service for six weeks now” in
    24  one sentence? In other words, this particular crematorium
    25  was stated on July 23rd already to have been out of
    26  service for six weeks, so obviously it was a major problem

    .           P-11

      1  with crematorium (ii) and yet they list it here as being
      2  capable of operating.
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but this is a general accounting. This letter goes
      4  back to a request which was actually made early in January
      5  when Hoess wanted to have, the first indication anyway
      6  that he wants to have an accounting of total cremation
      7  capacity in the camp.
      8  Indeed, crematorium (ii), after having had an
      9  overload of incinerations in March and April, had shown
    10  problems with the flues, actually the flues started to
    11  collapse, and was taken out of commission in May for
    12  repair. It took the Topf workers some time to actually
    13  determine exactly what had happened. It took them even
    14  more time to actually decide who was to blame, because the
    15  chimney maker said that it was Topf who was to blame, and
    16  Topf blamed the chimney makers. So they were, basically,
    17  negotiating who was going to pay for all of this
    18  throughout June. Finally, in August, the crematorium was
    19  brought back into operation. But throughout this time,
    20  I mean, when you look at incineration capacity in general
    21  in the camp, this letter does not refer to actually that
    22  day, but to the general capacity available in the camp.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor, do you not agree that in that case, since these
    24  crematoria were so frequently down, out of service and
    25  under repair and being squabbled over, it was improper for
    26  a document to exist giving an overall figure which made no

    .           P-12

      1  reference to the fact that at any one given time, 20 or 30
      2  per cent of the capacity might be down?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That was not yet known in June 1943. We know in hindsight
      4  that indeed crematoria (iv) and (v) showed many problems,
      5  and that ultimately even the incinerators were at a
      6  certain moment left alone for later ’43 and early ’44, but
      7  the fact that we have, in hindsight, acknowledged does not
      8  mean that on 28th June ’43 that knowledge existed.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. One final question: in view of the
    10  discrepancies I that have drawn to your attention and
    11  which I allege exist in this document, will you be
    12  undertaking any steps to investigate whether there are any
    13  similar documents with a similar letter registry number
    14  and which contain similar discrepancies in the rank and
    15  other items to which I have drawn your attention?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is really a question for Mr Rampton, not
    17  for Professor van Pelt.
    18  MR IRVING:  I want it to go on the record, my Lord. That is
    19  all. I have no further questions.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, do you want to re-examine on that
    21  aspect?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I would like the Professor — I am sorry, I have
    23  only got the German with me. I have not got the
    24  Professor’s report, unfortunately, or any of the other
    25  documents with me because I had no notice of it. I would
    26  just like him — his German is pretty good — if he will,

    .           P-13

      1  just to read the text. (To the witness): Leave out the
      2  figures in the middle, if you will, Professor, but just
      3  read the text of the letter to us in English starting with
      4  “Unter den Eichen 126 – 135”, will you?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So, OK. There is the address, “Unter den Eichen 126 –
      6  135″, which seems to be the correct address, as far as
      7  I remember. “I announce the completion of crematorium
      8  (iii) on 26th June 1943. With this all of the crematoria
      9  which were ordered, which were commanded, have been
    10  completed. The capacity of the now available crematorium
    11  when used at a 24-hour work cycle”, and then we get the
    12  numbers.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then you get the numbers and the total at the bottom. I
    14  have one other question only. To your knowledge, did they
    15  ever actually use any of these crematoria for a full
    16  24-hour period?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The time that they would have used it — we have no
    18  account. Quite literally, we use it 24 hours or 16 or 18,
    19  whatever like that, but the only period in which they
    20  would have had to use these crematoria on a 24-hour cycle
    21  would have been in May and June 1944 during the Hungarian
    22  action.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Were they using all five of these crematoria in the
    24  Hungarian action?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They certainly used No. (ii) and (iii) which were in full
    26  function at the time. (iv) and (v) were repaired for the

    .           P-14

      1  Hungarian action, shortly before the Hungarian action,
      2  because they had been out of commission. But during the
      3  Hungarian action (v) and (iv) showed problems, and I think
      4  that ultimately (v) was a crematorium where the
      5  incinerator collapsed. We always have to make the
      6  distinction between the incinerating and the gas
      7  chambers. The gas chambers of (iv) and (v) were in full
      8  operation during the Hungarian action, but ultimately they
      9  created these outside incineration pits during the
    10  Hungarian action to compensate for the problems in
    11  crematoria (iv) and (v).
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Just to complete the picture of potential capacity, if we
    13  go on to the Hungarian action in the early summer of
    14  ’44, what about bunker 2?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Are we talking about gassing capacity?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes bunker 2 was brought back into operation during the
    17  Hungarian action because they felt that the gas chambers
    18  of crematoria (ii) to (v) would not be able to cope with
    19  the arrivals.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Where did they incinerate the people that were killed in
    21  bunker 2?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They were incinerated in open air pits which followed the
    23  example developed by Stammamptfuhrer Bloebbel in Chelmno
    24  which Dejaco Hussler had inspected in mid September 1942.
    25  MR IRVING:  My Lord, this re-examination is rather exceeding
    26  the bounds of the original cross-examination.

    .           P-15

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are quite right, it is. But I want to
      2  ask you a question which I hope does reflect the
      3  cross-examination, and that is this, Professor van Pelt.
      4  Taking on board, as it were, all the points that have been
      5  put to you by Mr Irving about the authenticity of this
      6  document, do you have a view about it? Are you doubtful
      7  about it?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If this document were to pop up right now, after having
      9  not been seen for 50 or 60 years, given the kind of
    10  challenges which have been made by Holocaust
    11  denier/revisionist historians, however one would want to
    12  call people who challenge the historical record, I would
    13  be more suspicious, because, you know, where does this
    14  document come from? The issue is, however, that this
    15  document has been in existence, and the records of these
    16  documents before ever a challenge was being made to the
    17  incineration capacity of the crematoria. In fact, this
    18  document shows a much lower incineration capacity of the
    19  crematoria than we find in the testimonies of Hoess and
    20  others.
    21  So what I do not understand is what purpose
    22  would have been served, let us say, in the 1950s by, let
    23  us say, somebody who wants to make a case that Auschwitz
    24  was an extermination camp, by creating a document, by
    25  falsifying a document, which shows a lower incineration
    26  rate for the crematoria than that which has been attested

    .           P-16

      1  to under oath by the German eyewitnesses. That is the
      2  discrepancy. So, given the fact that it is lower, and
      3  given the fact that it appeared at a time that no one was
      4  challenging the incineration capacity, because the German
      5  testimony on it was kind of self-evident, and given the
      6  fact also that this document, I think, shows a very good
      7  convergence with Tauber’s testimony, and Tauber’s
      8  testimony which after 1945 really was not published until
      9  Pressac did it, and Tauber describes in detail the way the
    10  corpses in the incinerators were incinerated, with many
    11  corpses at the time, and he gives times for this, and in
    12  fact Tauber’s figures do converge with this one, I think
    13  there is absolutely no reason to doubt the authenticity of
    14  this document as far as the content is concerned.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Can I ask you one more question? When did the issue about
    16  incineration capacity really surface?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The issue of incineration capacity really started to
    18  surface, I think Faurisson mentioned it. Faurisson in the
    19  late 70s really concentrated on the issue of the gas
    20  chambers. The first major challenge which was made
    21  I think was Fred Leuchter in 1988. Butts in 76 also made
    22  an issue of it, but in some way this was buried, I think,
    23  in the larger context of his work.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: In the 70s anyway?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In the 70s, after this document had been admitted as
    26  evidence in the Vienna court.

    .           P-17

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, there is a bit of a new point
      2  there, so do you want to ask any further questions?
      3  MR IRVING:  I do wish to re-examine just briefly. I do not
      4  want to go into the matter of the burning pits. I think
      5  that that is a side issue that was raised in
      6  cross-examination. I do not think it should have been
      7  because we had not mentioned the burning pits, but I do
      8  want to raise just two or three of the points you
      9  mentioned there. You referred to the witness Hoess, and
    10  you relied on his figures. Is it correct that the witness
    11  Hoess in his statements said that 2.8 million Jews were
    12  killed in Auschwitz?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I feel uncomfortable discussing what Hoess says without
    14  the documents, but since I discussed it in length in my
    15  expert report, Hoess ultimately comes down to 1.125
    16  million. He makes a detailed calculation, and he does it
    17  actually on two or three different occasions.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did he use the figure 2.8 million at any time?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: As a general, he said there were different ways to account
    20  to it. He said he had one kind of figure based on, he
    21  thought how many people had been killed, but then at a
    22  certain moment he corrects himself and he says but the
    23  real way to calculate it is by looking at how many Jews
    24  arrived by the transports. Then I come to 1.15 million
    25  people.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: If somebody oscillates between 2.8 million and 1.1 million

    .           P-18

      1  under oath, how can you place any reliance whatsoever on
      2  his other figures?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that there is the issue of how do you calculate
      4  the figure? There is one thing. He had no documents in
      5  front of him because no record was kept. He at a certain
      6  moment tries to reconstruct without having any figures,
      7  and of course we must remember that Hoess was, in the
      8  crucial time of the camp’s history, Hungarian, actually
      9  late 43, he was not any more Kommandant of Auschwitz. He
    10  left Auschwitz. He was attached to the inspectorate in
    11  Oranienburg. So he only came back later to Auschwitz.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are only talking about the reliability of his figures.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, we have to confine this. We cannot
    14  have an open ended further cross-examination. Confine it
    15  to the authenticity of the document.
    16  MR IRVING:  That did go to the authenticity because he relied
    17  on Hoess as a source of statistical evidence, my Lord.
    18  Secondly, is it correct that the version of this document
    19  which is in the Auschwitz State museum was provided to
    20  them by the East German communist authorities? In other
    21  words, not the other way round, as one would expect?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The version in Auschwitz, but this is the Moscow version,
    25  so we are talking here about the Moscow document. It is a
    26  different document. It is a different object, so to

    .           P-19

      1  speak. The object means the actual sheet of paper which
      2  came from East Germany.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: The final question is on the question of why the matter
      4  has only just recently been raised. Is it not correct to
      5  say that the Moscow archives have only become available
      6  for purposes of comparison over the last ten years or so?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is true.
      8  MR IRVING:  Thank you very much. I have no further questions,
      9  my Lord.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much, Professor.
    11  < (The witness stood down)
    12  MR IRVING:  Your Lordship may have considered that a rather
    13  useless exercise but, as it is such a crucial document,
    14  I thought that we ought to examine it in greater detail.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I personally think that the issue of
    16  authenticity of this document is important for the
    17  purposes of this trial.
    18  MR IRVING:  It is almost pivotal, along with the roof. Thank
    19  you very much.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  I certainly do not agree that it is pivotal. It
    21  may be an important document in some senses.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The challenge to it may be important.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, absolutely. If I feel the need to meet that
    24  challenge beyond what the Professor has said in the
    25  witness box, I will do so.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Moscow archive presumably can be, as it

    .           P-20

      1  were, consulted to see if the document is there.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes, but, if it was in the Vienna trial in
      3  1971, I do not know that the Moscow archives have a lot to
      4  do with it.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What now? Mr Irving back into the box?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Shall I give your Lordship a little plan?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before you do, can I say something which
      8  I actually said yesterday? I think it became called L2,
      9  I think my L2 has gone back to you, but, in trying to go
    10  through yesterday evening, it really is impossible for me
    11  to follow it in the transcript when all I have is German
    12  documents, some of which have been partly translated in
    13  odd bits of Professor Evans’ report. It is a nightmare
    14  exercise.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  It will not surprise your Lordship to be told that
    16  I took that on board. What I am going to do today will
    17  involve no reference to German documents by me. It will
    18  consist of a document prepared with, I have to say, the
    19  most extraordinary skill and expedition by Miss Rogers in
    20  relation to Dresden. There is a file of Dresden
    21  documents. They are mostly in English. I shall not make
    22  reference to them myself, because they have been
    23  summarized in the little document that Miss Rogers has
    24  prepared.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  Contrary to my feeling yesterday evening, I am

    .           P-21

      1  going to go to four topics in the aftermath of
      2  Reichskristallnacht, but I am going to do those, unless
      3  again I am pushed by Mr Irving to the German, exclusively
      4  from Professor Evans’ report.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do think that is easier. Can I at the same
      6  time make this enquiry? It is important that we are clear
      7  for later on. Looking at Kristallnacht, not the aftermath
      8  of Kristallnacht, there are several points made in Evans
      9  and Longerich, I think, which I do not think you
    10  cross-examine to specifically. It is not a criticism
    11  obviously, but does that mean they have gone out of the
    12  case, or what?
    13  MR RAMPTON:  It is very difficult. I am very conscious of the
    14  amount of time that this case could take. That means I am
    15  also conscious of the amount of money it could cost my
    16  clients, never mind court time and the time of all the
    17  people involved. I have taken the view, right or wrong,
    18  that, if I have three or four, or maybe two or three, or
    19  even five or six, dead cert winners, to use a
    20  colloquialism, in any particular topic, I am not going to
    21  spend a lot of time having argy-bargy about minor points
    22  with Mr Irving. I have one more what I regard as dead
    23  cert winner to finish which is this business about ND3052
    24  or ND3051 because I have chased that it and I know the
    25  answer. But if your Lordship should take the view at the
    26  end of the cross-examination of my expert witnesses that

    .           P-22

      1  certain points have gone from the case, well, why then
      2  they have gone, but if Mr Irving should take up with my
      3  expert witnesses things I have not cross-examined him
      4  about, why, then they will come back into the arena.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But at the moment they are not in the arena.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  No.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is rather what I thought, but I think it
      8  is quite important to be clear about it.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  If I have missed something out, something
    10  important, I miss something important and that is just too
    11  bad. But there has to be a sense of proportion in all of
    12  this, in my belief.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It might be something — I have not got them
    14  in mind now — there are some points that I think Evans
    15  attaches importance to on Reichskristallnacht which maybe
    16  we have not really touched on.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  I agree there are some things in relation to
    18  eyewitness testimony. I am as mistrustful of that in
    19  general as is Mr Irving, and I prefer the original
    20  documents, and that is what I did yesterday.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I am going back to one other original document in
    23  a moment.
    24  MR IRVING:  I thought there was going to be a complex on the
    25  Adjutants we were going to hear about.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  There may be something about the Adjutants along

    .           P-23

      1  down the road, but I have not got to that yet. It is a
      2  separate topic.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That clears the air a bit.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  I have not given thought to what, if any,
      5  Adjutants I am interested in.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, if you go back we are starting
      7  off now on Dresden.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  No. I am going to finish Reichskristallnacht and
      9  then I shall go to Dresden.

    Part III: David Irving’s Cross-Examination by Mr. Rampton (24.10-109.7)

    Section 24.10-47.8

    10  < MR DAVID IRVING recalled.
    11  < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Your Lordship and the witness will need a document which
    13  we dug out yesterday.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will need my L2 back too, will I not?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I do not know where it has gone. (To the
    16  witness): Mr Irving, can you please go back to your
    17  Goebbels book at page 276? At the bottom of that page we
    18  saw yesterday, we are going to read it again, you write:
    19  “What of Himmler and Hitler? Both were totally unaware
    20  of what Goebbels had done until the synagogue next to
    21  Munich’s Four Seasons Hotel was set on fire around 1k
    22  a.m. Heydrich, Himmler’s national chief of police, was
    23  relaxing down in the hotel bar, he hurried up to Himmler’s
    24  room, then telexed instructions to all police authorities
    25  to restore law and order, protect Jews and Jewish
    26  property, and halt any ongoing incidents.” You give us

    .           P-24

      1  the reference No. 43, you give us the reference for that
      2  on page 613, ND3052-PS?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now please look at the document I have just handed in.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, in fact, there are two sources there. I have also
      6  referenced Karl Wolff.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Will you please look at the document I have just handed
      8  in?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is —-
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: 3052 — yes, there is a mistake in the number.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have mistaken the number?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Professor Evans is right?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The correct number is 3051, is it not?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: It is probably 3051. There may be another one, but this
    18  is clearly the wrong one, but I have also referenced Karl
    19  Wolff as my source.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we please look then at what Professors Evans used as
    21  the translation of the key part of 3051 at the top?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Which, of course, I have not referenced.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, you have not. But, Mr Irving, I suggest that you had
    24  it in front of you and you simply made a slip of the pen
    25  (as we all can) and called the document 3052 when, in
    26  fact, it was 3051.

    .           P-25

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: You may be right, but you may be wrong.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say “you may be wrong”, you mean
      3  there is another document very similar to 3051 which you
      4  did in have in front of you?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, note 43 also refers to Karl Wolff which is a
      6  source which I also used.
      7  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is another matter.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I would have to look and see what Karl Wolff said which
      9  may very well be the source of that.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, forget Karl Wolff. You have given —-
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: No, because — I am not going to forget him because he is
    12  given in the footnote 43.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, you have given 3052 as the reference?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: As one of the references.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is wrong, as you can plainly see from the document?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It follows, does it not —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It was another document.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — that the overlying probability is that you meant 3051
    20  which is, indeed, a telex from Heydrich at 1.20 a.m. on
    21  10th November?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: That is one telex from him at 1.20 yes, but if —-
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Wait, Mr Irving.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: — if you look at the time scale, if you look at the time
    25  scale, these instructions I am referring to are unlikely
    26  to have got into a telex machine at 1.20 a.m. It would

    .           P-26

      1  be closer to 2 a.m. that things like that went out, by the
      2  time he has got back to police headquarters.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You say he “hurried up to Himmler’s room”?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but they would not have had a telex machine in
      5  Himmler’s hotel room, my Lord. He would have had to go to
      6  the local Gestapo headquarters or telephone instruction
      7  for local headquarters and tell them to type a telex and
      8  get this kind of thing out.
      9  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So your suggestion is there is another telex from
    10  Heydrich?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Another source. I am not suggesting it is another telex.
    12  I am suggesting it is another source and I have referenced
    13  there Karl Wolff.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Let us suppose for a moment that a three year-old
    15  child will not buy that story, Mr Irving, and compare what
    16  301 says of what you wrote in the text, may we?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, shall we do that?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, let us look at the top of 263 of Professor Evans’
    19  report. The German is printed at the bottom. So if you
    20  want to read the German first, please do.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: “On Himmler’s instructions, they were to be sure some
    22  restrictions placed on the action”, is that correct on the
    23  foot of page 262?
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. That is absolutely right. Now you see what they are
    25  on page 263.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, I have read that.

    .           P-27

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now tell me what foundation that provides for your
      2  assertion that Heydrich’s telex was “to protect Jews and
      3  Jewish property and halt any ongoing incidents”.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, clearly, this is a different message I am referring
      5  to.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving. Clearly, you have deliberately
      7  misrepresented the effect of this telex from Heydrich.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: No, Mr Rampton. You are looking at a different message,
      9  and you are saying, “This does not look like the one you
    10  are quoting” which is just what I am saying. You are
    11  right. It is not the one I am quoting.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is what you call 3052? Where
    13  physically is it?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, they have had complete access to all my files and
    15  we do not know which signals they have put in and which
    16  they have not put in.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  It does not exist, Mr Irving?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It may not be a signal. It may be what Karl Wolff
    19  reported. Karl Wolff was with him at that time. I have
    20  referenced Karl Wolff in footnote 43 which your Professor
    21  Evans has overlooked.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The first reference you give — I am only going to ask
    23  this once more — is 3052, is it not?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The reader will suppose that that is a reference to the
    26  text of the Heydrich telex?

    .           P-28

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, no. The 43 refers to everything from the beginning
      2  of that paragraph, “What of Himmler and Hitler?” onwards.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, the reference you give for the Heydrich telex
      4  is 3052, is it not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: One of the two references, yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. It so happens that the true Heydrich telex is 3051?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: It so happens that a Heydrich telex is 3051.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It so happens that 30512 has nothing whatever to do with
      9  Reichskristallnacht at all?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What do you think is the probability — that had you some
    12  other document which has disappeared which had the
    13  No. 3052 on it?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: My documents have not disappeared. As you are familiar,
    15  I have given all my documents to the German archives.
    16  I have provided to you what relics I have, what remnants
    17  I have, of my document collection.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, now I would offer you the same opportunity,
    19  Mr Irving, as you kindly offered to us. You find 3052 and
    20  the text of a Heydrich telex which carries the information
    21  which you have put in the book.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, perhaps if you have the Karl Wolff’s statement from
    23  the Institute files No. 317, then you will find precisely
    24  the content that I referred to.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we move on now, please?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: If you thought I was wrong, you would have actually

    .           P-29

      1  produced to the court 317, the Karl Wolff statement, and
      2  said, “Mr Irving, can you find that in 317?”
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are perfectly entitled to do that
      4  yourself, but it does not, I think it is fair to say, meet
      5  Mr Rampton’s point which is that one of your references is
      6  3052.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: One of the references has a digit wrong, this is correct.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: And the ball, if I may say so, is in your court to produce
      9  the document that you say is 3052.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: If I can do so, having given all my records away, this is
    11  true, but I shall certainly attempt to do so.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, I want to come to the aftermath of
    13  Reichskristallnacht. I want to move on now to the
    14  aftermath, the next day, starting with Mr Goebbels —
    15  Dr Goebbels, I do beg his pardon. Can we start, please,
    16  and I promised I would stick Professor Evans and that is
    17  what I am going to, at page 281 of Professor Evans’
    18  report, please.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: What does he mean by “the inevitable Goebbels diary”?
    20  Does that not suggest a mind cast on the part of your
    21  expert in paragraph 1?
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you look at paragraph 2, please, Mr Irving — you can
    23  ask Professor Evans any number of questions you like
    24  subject to his Lordship’s control, but I am not going to
    25  answer your questions, I am afraid. Paragraph 2 on page
    26  281.

    .           P-30

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “In his account of the events of 10th November 1938,
      3  Goebbels wrote: ‘New reports rain down the whole
      4  morning. I consider with the Fuhrer what measures should
      5  be taken now. Let the beatings continue or stop them?
      6  That is now the question’.”
      7  You, when you wrote about this in your Goebbels
      8  book, said: “Goebbels went to see Hitler to discuss what
      9  to do next. There is surely an involuntary hint of
    10  apprehension in the phrase”. Why did you write that?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I am, first of all, checking to see the original German
    12  text because he has not provided it to us, has he, or has
    13  he?
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Check it by all means. If we have to go
    15  through it, we will have to go through it, but we are
    16  trying to avoid doing that.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the reason for that is the translation of the word
    18  “now”.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You can tell us.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Can you confirm that the word he has used for “now” is not
    21  “nun” but “nunmehr”?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I have no idea.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am telling you — I have a pretty good memory of these
    24  things.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why does it matter?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Why does it matter? Indeed. So what? “Nunmehr” conveys

    .           P-31

      1  the hint of apprehension. “What do we do now?”
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You translate it in your book — what you write is 277 of
      3  Goebbels: “As more ugly bulletins rained down on him the
      4  next morning, November 10th 1938, Goebbels went to see
      5  Hitler to discuss ‘what to do next'”?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed, “nunmehr”.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is the apprehension in that?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, if you understood German and you knew the nuances of
      9  the German language, and any German sitting in this room
    10  would know there is a difference between the words “nun”
    11  nad “nunmehr”. Am I correct? Is that the word used?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr irving, will you answer my question? Did you write,
    13  “He went to discuss with Hitler what to do next”?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: “What to do now” and “what to do next”, what is the
    15  difference? You explain to the court.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It might be right if the phraseology were apt to convey
    17  the impression, “Oh, dear. Whatever shall we do now?” but
    18  that is not what you translated it as?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I am trying to give the difference between “now”, between
    20  “nun” and “nunmehr”, and any German in this courtroom
    21  will know there is a strong difference. “Nunmehr” means
    22  “now more than ever” and this, I suspect, is why
    23  Professor Evans has not provided the original German here.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  As a matter of fact, he has. Note 104, page
    25  282, he says the original German is “nunmehrige” which
    26  I think is the same as “nunmehr”, in fact?

    .           P-32

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I wish we had had the entire text, but he has —-
      2  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You are only quarrelling with that one word, as
      3  I understand it?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, indeed, but there is big difference, of course,
      5  between “nun” and “nunmehr”, and I can only confirm that
      6  any German will confirm this.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  The German is, Mr Irving — excuse my
      8  pronunciation once again, but I will read it slowly..
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: What page is the German?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen”. End of line.
    11  The next line: “Ich uberlege mit dem Fuhrer unsere
    12  nunmehrigen Masnahmen”. That is “our next measures”, is
    13  it not?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I am looking at the original translation in bundle L2 on
    15  page 3, the original German.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is on page 2, I think.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: “Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen … unsere
    18  nunmehrigen Masnahmen”. There you are, “nunmehr”.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, “our next steps”?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: But I have to try to explain once again, because you do
    21  not hesitate also to keep repeating yourself, that “nun”
    22  and “nunmehr” have two totally different nuances.
    23  “Nunmehr” in German means “now more than ever”.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does it mean, “I discussed with the Fuhrer our next
    25  steps”?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: “… unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen”.

    .           P-33

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, “our next steps”?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, “what steps we should now take more than ever”.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is apprehensive about that?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: The adding of the word “mehr” to “nun”.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then he goes on: “Weiterschlagen lassen oder abstoppen”.
      6  “Shall we go on thrshing them or stop” or “Shall we let
      7  the thrashing go on or stop it”, yes? “That is now the
      8  question”?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: “Weiterschlagen lasen oder abstoppen”, that is right.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Das ist nun die Frage”?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: “That is now the question”.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly. What is apprehensive about that?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Because he has been summoned to see the Hitler because the
    14  whole of Germany is in flames, messages coming in from
    15  diplomatic missions all around the world about it.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But they are contemplating letting it go on?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Goebbels is contemplating letting it gone on, “What are we
    18  going to do now?” This is Goebbels’ diary, my Lord, not
    19  Hitler. Goebbels has been summoned before Hitler like a
    20  schoolboy who has painted something on the wall.
    21  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, who is meant to be being apprehensive? I took it to
    22  be Goebbels.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Goebbels is apprehensive, yes.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  About what?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: That he had been summoned to see Hitler. Perhaps I should
    26  sketch in in two lines the background? Goebbels has been

    .           P-34

      1  a very bad for the last six months. He has been caught
      2  red handed in an appalling matrimonial scandal. He has
      3  been threatened with this missile. He has contemplated
      4  suicide. He thought he was doing Hitler a favour with
      5  this little outrage and, to his horror, he has found out
      6  he has done the exact opposite. He has been summoned
      7  before Hitler and Hitler is now showing him the diplomatic
      8  messages that have come in. Within a matter of an hour or
      9  two, Goebbels has had to issue a telegram which is on the
    10  very next page, or page 279 of my book produces a
    11  facsimile: “Everything is to be stopped immediately. All
    12  the orders I issued yesterday are cancelled”. Am the
    13  I right?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, you are not right, Mr Irving. You are not right in
    15  your thesis. You are right in what that document says and
    16  it is sent to the propaganda chiefs. All that has been
    17  decided is, well, for the sake of foreign opinion and
    18  public opinion, we had better stop smashing up Jewish
    19  shops and killing Jewish people?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: On the contrary, this document which I reproduce in a
    21  facsimile is sent to precisely the people he ordered the
    22  day before to start all the pogrom.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you say. We had that argument yesterday —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you keep saying “so I say”, but I am the one who
    25  wrote the book.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I do say and I do not accept it, Mr Irving. We went

    .           P-35

      1  through it yesterday. It is quite obvious that I do not
      2  accept it. It is no good repeating it. We have been
      3  through it. The judge will decide the question and then
      4  see what happened in the next day’s diary entry. If you
      5  pass over to paragraph 4 on the same page, 282 of Evans —
      6  the German, if you want it, is on tab 3 of the
      7  Reichskristallnacht file. It is the beginning of the
      8  diary entry, as I expect you know. “Following this first
      9  conversation with Hitler on morning of 10th, Goebbels
    10  drafted an order to bring the pogrom to a halt.
    11  ‘Yesterday’, he wrote on the 11th in his diary, ‘Berlin.
    12  There, all proceeded fantastically. One fire after
    13  another. It is good that way. I prepare an order to put
    14  an amend the actions'”. That is the one you have just
    15  told us about, Mr Irving. “‘It is now just enough … In
    16  whole country the synagogues have burned them. I report
    17  to the Fuhrer at the Osteria’.” The German is printed at
    18  the bottom of the page if you want to look at it. The
    19  “Osteria” was a restaurant in Munich, I think, was it
    20  not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is still there, yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not mind. It was, was it not?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And if we turn over the page, we can see what Goebbels
    25  reports of his meeting with Hitler at the Osteria
    26  sometime, presumably, on the 10th, in paragraph 5 on page

    .           P-36

      1  283: “At the Osteria, Goebbels presented Hitler with his
      2  draft order to stop the pogram. His diary entry
      3  continued: ‘I report to the Fuhrer in the Osteria. He
      4  agrees with everything. His views are totally radical and
      5  aggressive. The action itself has taken place without any
      6  problems. 17 dead. But no German property damaged. The
      7  Fuhrer approves my decree concerning the ending of the
      8  actions, with small amendments. I announce it via the
      9  press and raid. The Fuhrer wants to take very sharp
    10  measures against the Jews. They must themselves put their
    11  businesses in order again. The insurance companies will
    12  not pay them a thing. Then the Fuhrer wants a gradual
    13  expropriation of Jewish businesses”?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Now, what holes can you pick in my account of that?
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am coming to that in a moment, Mr Irving. Let us look
    16  at how you dealt with that entry, shall we, in a minute?
    17  That starts at paragraph 8. But, first, I want to draw
    18  your attention to what Goebbels did next, sorry, or before
    19  which is in paragraph 7: “On the afternoon of 10th
    20  November”, that is after the meeting with Hitler at the
    21  Osteria, “Goebbels informed the Nazi Party chief of
    22  Munich-Upper Bavaria that the pogram was to be terminated,
    23  and added: ‘The Fuhrer sanctions the measures taken so far
    24  and declares that he does not disapprove'”. It is
    25  entirely consistent with the diary entry, is it not? Is
    26  it not, Mr Irving?

    .           P-37

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: What, what Evans wrote or what I wrote?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. What Goebbels wrote, “The Fuhrer sanctions the
      3  measures taken so for and declares that he does not
      4  disapprove of them”?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Which passage are you translating?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am reading from the text of Professor Evans.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, I see. I thought you were looking at something hard
      8  and concrete.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I told his Lordship that, unless forced to do so, I am
    10  going to keep off the German. It is much easier for
    11  us —-
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is working much better.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  — Anglophones. “The Fuhrer sanctions the
    14  measures taken so far and declares that he does not
    15  disapprove of them”. That is exactly what Goebbels
    16  reported him as having said at the Osteria, is it not?
    17  Have you got the place in Evans, Mr Irving.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Paragraph 7?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I am trying to read three volumes simultaneously.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I know it is difficult. The bottom of
    21  page 283.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: 283?
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, 283.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  Then it goes on —-
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you there, Mr Irving?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I am, but I am wondering where he gets the words “on the

    .           P-38

      1  afternoon of”. I mean, the timing appears to be
      2  important, and …
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Well, it is perfectly obvious. If he saw Hitler
      4  on the day, at the Osteria, and Hitler said —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: The note 107 refers to something dated November 11th.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not following your point, Mr Irving.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am wondering where he gets the phrase “on the
      8  afternoon of November 10″.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does it matter?
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Because it comes from the text of Goebbels’
    11  circular. If you look at what Hitler said to Goebbels at
    12  the Osteria, it is perfectly natural that later that day
    13  Goebbels should report that “Hitler sanctions the measures
    14  taken so far and declares that he does not disapprove of
    15  them”. That is exactly what he had already said to
    16  Goebbels.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, we have a difficulty here. We have just one line,
    18  or one line from a message not from Goebbels but from a
    19  Gauleiter, from a Gauleiter’s adjutant, the next day, in
    20  other words, it is already third-hand.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then I am going to read on, Mr Irving. Top of 284: “In
    22  another circular”, this is Evans, “sent out the same day
    23  to Gau propaganda officials, quoted in Irving’s own book
    24  on Goebbels, and quite clearly reporting Hitler’s views at
    25  the meeting in the Osteria, Goebbels added: ‘An order is
    26  to be expected according to which the (cost of the) damage

    .           P-39

      1  resulting from the anti-Jewish actions is not to be met by
      2  insurance companies but by the Jews concerned themselves.
      3  Furthermore, a series of measures against the Jews will
      4  very shortly be implemented through the promulgation of
      5  laws or decrees’.” I am going to show you, if you have
      6  forgotten, Mr Irving, what, in fact, happened next. But
      7  I want you to look next —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I am finding it very difficult to see what point you are
      9  thrusting towards.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You will see what point I am thrusting towards. Be
    11  patient. These things have to be built in blocks,
    12  Mr Irving. Look at paragraph 8: “How does Irving deal
    13  with this particularly incriminating diary entry? In
    14  1992, when Irving first read the Goebbels diary entries
    15  for the period 9th to 10th November 1938, he was convinced
    16  that it showed that Hitler approved of the pogrom”. Here
    17  is a quote from Mr Irving interviewed by Kurt Franz, CBC
    18  Newsworld in July 1992: “‘According to his diary’, that
    19  is Goebbels, ‘and I can’t emphasise those words enough,
    20  according to his diaries, Hitler was closely implicated
    21  with those outrages. And that’s a matter of some dismay
    22  to me because it means I have to revise my own opinion.
    23  But a historian should always be willing to revise his
    24  opinion'”? So far, so good, Mr Irving. Let us see how it
    25  develops.
    26  1993, “A year later he was sounding a slightly

    .           P-40

      1  more sceptical note. Goebbels diary, Irving said”, and
      2  this is part of the talk that you had been going to make
      3  in Australia but which you were not allowed to make,
      4  Irving “‘describes how Hitler thoroughly endorses what he,
      5  Goebbels, has done, namely stating'”, this is the top of
      6  285.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: “Starting”.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: …”‘starting that outrage that night. This was a deep
      9  shock for me'”, that is Irving, “‘and I immediately
    10  announced it to the world’s newspapers that I had
    11  discovered this material, although it appeared to go
    12  against what I had written in my own book Hitler’s War.
    13  But even there you have to add a rider and say, “Wait a
    14  minute, this is Dr Goebbels writing this”. Dr Goebbels
    15  who took all the blame for what was done. So did he have
    16  perhaps a motive for writing in his private diaries
    17  subsequently that Hitler endorsed what he had done? You
    18  can’t entirely close that file’.”
    19  Just pause there, Mr Irving, what motive did
    20  Goebbels have for, as it were, trying to implicate Hitler
    21  in something which Hitler knew nothing about?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I think if you read the whole of my Goebbels book, and
    23  I am sure you have, you will note that there were several
    24  occasions on which Goebbels took actions independently and
    25  subsequently sought shelter in either writing in his diary
    26  that Hitler had sanctioned it, or actually ly went to

    .           P-41

      1  Hitler and informed him what he had done.
      2  One example I quote is the decision to put
      3  forward Hitler’s name in the presidential candidacy in
      4  1932 which was a public relations disaster. So there are
      5  several episodes where Goebbels acts on his own and then
      6  seeks endorsement from Hitler, not just this particular
      7  episode. So one is entitled to say, was this another such
      8  episode?
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, the evidence is — we went through it yesterday
    10  — if you look at the evidence objectively, the evidence
    11  is such that it drives one to the inevitable inference
    12  that Hitler knew along and probably authorized what
    13  happened. There is no reason why Goebbels should put the
    14  blame on Hitler if, in fact, that is the case. Second, if
    15  Goebbels —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I take these points one at a time?
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: So in cross-examination is always wise to ask one question
    19  at a time. There no reason why Goebbels should have
    20  sought refuge in Hitler at this time? Well, the answer is
    21  that by two days after the Reichskristallnacht, every
    22  finger in Germany was pointing at Goebbels. He had held a
    23  disastrous press conference before the Berlin foreign
    24  press corps where he had been ridiculed. Ribbentrop,
    25  Himmler, Heydrich, every top Nazi, the entire top Nazi
    26  brass, were pointing the finger at Goebbels and demanding

    .           P-42

      1  that he should be finally dismissed because of this
      2  outrage. We know this from all the private diaries,
      3  including from the diaries of anti-Nazis like Ulrich von
      4  Hassell, and his only protection was to go to Adolf
      5  Hitler.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But, Mr Irving —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: And, as I made quite plain, Adolf Hitler — this is one of
      8  his weaknesses — immediately covered for him.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So what is said in the diary is true, but
    10  Hitler was, as it were, unnecessarily and inappropriately
    11  taking the blame, is that what your case is?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I think your Lordship has summed it, yes, and I would also
    13  draw your Lordship’s attention to the fact that the
    14  Canadian video tape which quotes my initial apprehensions
    15  about what I had just found in Moscow is just four days
    16  after I returned — six days after I returned from Moscow
    17  with the Goebbels diaries.
    18  You cannot reach snap decisions about the
    19  content of a document as tricky as this without comparing
    20  with all the additional surrounding countryside of
    21  documentation which is what I then did by a year later.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  You may think that it is tricky because, of
    23  course, if it is not tricky, it immediately plants Adolf
    24  Hitler in the centre of the frame, does it not?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the tricky thing about the Goebbels’ diaries, as I
    26  have repeatedly said, is they are the diaries of a liar.

    .           P-43

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Suppose that Himmler, as I suggested to you yesterday, was
      2  as involved, and perhaps more so, than Goebbels, it would
      3  be in his interests to pass the buck. It was in all their
      4  interests, so far as they could, to leave somebody else
      5  holding the baby perhaps?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you suggest that Himmler was involved in it?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I told you so yesterday.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: But all the evidence is exactly the contrary. All the
      9  contemporary evidence, including the private diary of
    10  Ulrich von Hassel, says that Himmler and Heydrich were
    11  absolutely livid with what had happened that night,
    12  because Goebbels had played fast and loose with the police
    13  forces which came under them.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Please explain to me, if Himmler and Heydrich were livid
    15  with what happened, the terminology of that telex of
    16  Heydrich, which we looked at earlier this morning, timed
    17  at 1.20 a.m.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Which was the one restricting certain measures.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Saying continue, I think, carry on.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, “Carry on, have a good time, do not damage
    21  German property, do not assault foreign Jews, carry on, it
    22  does not matter what you do so long as you do not injure
    23  German property”.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: They apprehended that they were acting on Hitler’s
    25  instructions and they found out at 2 a.m. that they were
    26  not, because Goebbels, in his famous speech at the old

    .           P-44

      1  town hall, had clearly given the impression that this was
      2  what the Fuhrer wanted.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And then?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: At 2 a.m., when the Fuhrer found out what was going
      5  on right across Germany, he called the people to his
      6  private residence and said, “What on earth is going on?”
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then, on 10th or 11th November, not only does Goebbels
      8  record Hitler’s approval or lack of disapproval for what
      9  happened, he actually circulates Gauleiters with a
    10  statement to the effect that the Fuhrer sanctions the
    11  measures taken so far and declares that he does not
    12  disapprove of them. Now, if Goebbels had been lying in
    13  his diary about Hitler’s approval, he was taking an awful
    14  risk, was he not, of telling everybody that Hitler did
    15  approve of it?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: This is typical Goebbels. This is exactly the way he
    17  operated and, although I point once again to the fact that
    18  your source for this circular is a third hand item by an
    19  adjutant of a Gauleiter, assuming that that information is
    20  correct, this is typical of the way that Goebbels would
    21  operate. He would tell everybody to, “Shut up with your
    22  criticism of me, the Fuhrer was behind it”.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But it is true. The Fuhrer was behind it, was he not,
    24  Mr Irving?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Unfortunately, the documents operate the other way. We
    26  have that document which I produce now in the original on

    .           P-45

      1  the headed notepaper of the deputy of the Fuhrer, saying
      2  from orders from the highest level these acts of arson and
      3  similar things against the Jewish property are to cease
      4  forthwith, a message sent out at high urgency, high
      5  priority, at 2.56 a.m.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do we get those words “Jewish property” again? When you
      7  were caught unawares with that document yesterday, you
      8  correctly translated the word “geschaften” as shops.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: The important element of that telegram is not the
    10  translation of the word “geschafte” but the fact that this
    11  is an order being sent out by Hitler’s deputy saying, “The
    12  highest level has ordered these things to stop”, at 2.56
    13  a.m. You cannot get out of that telegram. This is the one
    14  thing that destroys your entire case.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, it does not say it. It says the burning of
    16  Jewish shops and the like should stop.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: If you were right, Mr Rampton, that telegram would say
    18  “carry on, not enough, more so, more so”, and in fact it
    19  says precisely the opposite.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It does not say precisely the opposite. We went through
    21  this yesterday, Mr Irving.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: If you are saying Adolf Hitler was behind the outrages,
    23  what is his deputy doing sending ought a telegram at 2.56
    24  a.m., of which you provided a copy yesterday, without the
    25  heading showing that it came from the Deputy Fuhrer,
    26  saying these outrages and the like against Jewish shops,

    .           P-46

      1  Jewish businesses, are to stop.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: This is exactly the opposite of what Adolf Hitler would
      4  have said.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving, I am sorry, it will not do. You cannot get
      6  round the wording of that telegram.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: You cannot get round the heading of that telegram.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Wait for the question.

    Section 47.9-59.25

      9  MR RAMPTON:  However much you may wish to inflate it, the fact
    10  is that it is specific as to Jewish shops and the like.
    11  Geschafte oder dergleichen.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is right. You do not need to check it,
    13  Mr Irving. That is right.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: “I directed No. 174/38 repetition of the telegram sent out
    15  that same evening, 10th November, on express orders from
    16  the highest level, acts of arson against Jewish businesses
    17  or the like, are not to take place under any circumstances
    18  whatever.” Signed by the Deputy Fuhrer, and you cannot
    19  get round it.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Well Mr Irving, I use your own translation given
    21  from the witness box caught unawares, “shops”. Nothing
    22  about synagogues?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: If Adolf Hitler was totally endorsing what Goebbels was up
    24  to, he would have done exactly the opposite. He would
    25  have said, “carry on fellows, magnificent stuff, let’s
    26  have more fires”.

    .           P-47

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You look at that message again, if you want. Where is the
      2  reference to synagogues, houses and apartments?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Where is the reference to Adolf Hitler eagerly backing up
      4  everything Goebbels was doing?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving. You use that telegram as incontrovertible
      6  evidence, to borrow one of your phrases, that Adolf Hitler
      7  smashed his fist on the table and said, “this has all got
      8  to stop”. Look at it again.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Do not forget, I also have the eyewitnesses who were with
    10  him just before this telegram was sent out. I have his
    11  two adjutants.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I have each party’s case.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: This is another of those pivotal items and this is very
    14  close to the horse’s mouth.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I agree it is pivotal, but there is no point
    16  in thrashing through it again. We went through it
    17  yesterday. I understand both cases.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is just that my evidence is slightly better quality
    20  than his.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Will you save that up for the end of the
    22  case.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, Mr Irving, laughter in court. Can we look at
    24  how you have finally come to deal with this Goebbels diary
    25  entry on page 278 of your book, Goebbels Mastermind of the
    26  Third Reich? It is the top of page 278 in the fourth line

    .           P-48

      1  at the paragraph.
      2  “He made his report (on ‘what to do next’) to
      3  Hitler in the Osteria, the Fuhrer’s favourite Italian
      4  restaurant, and was careful to record this” — and you
      5  insert “perhaps slanted” — “note in his diary, which
      6  stands alone, and in direct contradiction to the evidence
      7  of Hitler’s entire immediate entourage: “He is in
      8  agreement with everything. His views are quite radical
      9  and aggressive. The Aktion itself went off without a
    10  hitch. A hundred dead”. Where did that hundred come
    11  from? I do not remember that. Anyhow, it does not
    12  matter. I thought it was 17 dead.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  17, yes.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: It must be a subsequent entry in the diary.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  “But no German property damaged”.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, remember I was operating from the handwritten
    17  original.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I may have read the 17 as 100. It was in digits. I had
    20  the original.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You may be right, it may be a hundred.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  The official total at the end of it all was 91,
    24  was it not, Mr Irving.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I take your word for it, yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We do not find that figure in your book, I do not think,

    .           P-49

      1  do we?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: You have 100 here.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, that is Goebbels. You do not trust Goebbels. You are
      4  just telling the readership in a moment each of these five
      5  sentences was untrue. You are discrediting the figure of
      6  100?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: On the previous page 276 I say, “191 of the country’s 1400
      8  synagogues had been destroyed; about 7,500 Jewish shops
      9  had had their windows smashed. 36 … had been murdered,
    10  and hundreds more badly beaten”. I give a source for
    11  that.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 36. That was an interim report by Heydrich some time on
    13  the morning of the 11th.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The final official figure was something in the region of
    16  91, was it not, dead?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That comes from the report of the people’s court in
    19  February of 1939, does it not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot quite understand what the criticism is. I have
    21  said on one page the interim figure was 36. I then say
    22  Goebbels talks of a hundred.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not the main point, I think.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  No. You say Goebbels spoke of 100 and then you
    25  immediately say that that is untrue.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: What I say is “perhaps slanted”, or what?

    .           P-50

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I am reading your own words after the end of the
      2  quote. “Each of these five sentences was untrue as will
      3  be seen”?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. So you are discrediting Goebbels’ total of the
      6  dead, despite the fact that you know perfectly well that
      7  even the Nazi people’s court, or whatever it was called,
      8  in 1939 came to a total of 91?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, in that case 100 is untrue. Each of those figures
    10  is untrue. The point is I am pointing out exactly how
    11  unreliable Goebbels’ diary is and I am saying, each of
    12  these five sentences is untrue, inaccurate. “No German
    13  property was damaged”. There had been immense damage to
    14  German property. Things went off without a hitch.
    15  Exactly the contrary.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell me this. Do you accept that, whatever else you may
    17  say passed between Goebbels and Hitler at the meeting at
    18  the Osteria, Hitler told Goebbels that he wants to take
    19  very sharp measures against the Jews, they must themselves
    20  put their business in order again, the insurance companies
    21  will not pay them a thing. Then the Fuhrer wants a
    22  gradual expropriation of Jewish businesses?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that was said.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That was said and it happened, did it not?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: And it did happen, yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: On 12th November 1938 there was a conference chaired by

    .           P-51

      1  I think Hermann Goring, at which I think probably
      2  Dr Goebbels was present, at which very harsh measures in
      3  accordance with the Fuhrer’s wishes were taken against the
      4  Jews.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is correct, Hermann Goring was head of the four
      6  year plan and he was in a position to issue these
      7  ordinances.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You do not in your book, I think, Mr Irving, make
      9  any connection between the meeting in the Osteria
    10  restaurant, which in fact on reflection was perfectly
    11  obvious, and the Goring conference of the 12th two days
    12  later, do you?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: You say that Dr Goebbels was present at that meeting.
    14  I do not believe he was actually present, but I may be
    15  wrong.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know. Just have a quick glance — I am not a
    17  historian, Mr Irving — at the top of page 290 of Evans.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: 290 of Evans?
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are we leaving now the passage at 278.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: He was present, yes.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point is a wider one than the 100 dead,
    24  is it not?
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but I have been over that.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just put the question, so I get the

    .           P-52

      1  answer.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  278 of Goebbels. I think the suggestion is
      4  that there really is no basis for saying that the record
      5  in the diary is such a complete misrepresentation of what
      6  Hitler’s express view was at the Osteria.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  That is right.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I am afraid I have not followed your Lordship’s question.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, my fault. You see what you say
    10  about the diary entry?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You are saying that Goebbels is totally misrepresenting
    13  Hitler’s attitude as expressed to him, Goebbels, at the
    14  Osteria restaurant on the 10th.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: In as much as he has —-
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: What is the basis for that? I think that is really the
    17  question.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: He has misrepresented the diary in as much as the diary
    19  suggested Adolf Hitler endorsed, triggered, ignited and
    20  wanted the pogrom to take the shape it had during the
    21  previous night.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but on what basis do you say that
    23  Hitler’s view was something different from what Goebbels
    24  says in his diary?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: This telegram, my Lord, the one that goes out at 2.56A.m.
    26  saying, this has got to stop.

    .           P-53

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You rely on that?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: And of course on the eyewitnesses von Behlo and von
      3  Putkammer who talked to me in a manner that they probably
      4  would not have talked to Professor Evans.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  How many years after the events, Mr Irving?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: 1967. That would be 29 years later.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you show them the geschaften telegram of 2.56 a.m.?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: This telegram?
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not sure if I had it at the time I saw them, but
    11  their own recollections were very, very clear because they
    12  were burned into their memories.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you say to them, Mr Irving, look at this telegram, you
    14  cannot be telling the truth, whatever their names were,
    15  because this telegram is limited to Jewish shops and the
    16  like?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: What they described to me was Hitler’s anger on hearing
    18  that the synagogue in Munich was on fire, which news they
    19  brought to him. His response, “what on earth is going on,
    20  send for the police chief von Eberstein”, the police chief
    21  arriving. He then said, “send for Himmler, send for
    22  Goebbels, let us get to the bottom of this”. Then the
    23  orders were issued between 2 and 3 a.m.. This is their
    24  eyewitness account which they gave to me.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The answer to my question is no, you did not show them the
    26  geschaften telegram?

    .           P-54

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: That I do not know. This interview is, what 32 years
      2  ago? I do not know what documents I showed to them.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Nor did you show them, I take it, von Eberstein’s telegram
      4  or message or whatever it was, of 2.10 a.m., saying in
      5  effect, “carry on, chaps”?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: A message with Eberstein’s typed signature on the bottom
      7  from police headquarters, where Eberstein was not, because
      8  at that moment he was at Hitler’s flat.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: They had a telephone system in Munich in 1938, did they
    10  not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but you have to take into account the factor of
    12  time. There is no such thing as instantaneous
    13  communication of ideas. They had to pick up the phone.
    14  They had to dial. They had to get through. They had to
    15  find the officer at the other end. Somebody had to take
    16  the message down, somebody had to type it on to the telex,
    17  they had to get open lines.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: All of that can be done in about five minutes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think so. I think we are talking about the 1930s
    20  when everything was done manually, including telephone
    21  exchanges.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Eberstein already had the text of Muller’s telex of 5 to
    23  12 that night, did he not, and he just recites it.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. There is no question that at the time those igniting
    25  orders went out in consequence of Dr Goebbels’ speech at
    26  the old town hall, the executive branch, if you can put it

    .           P-55

      1  like that, thought they were acting in conformity with
      2  Hitler’s wishes. At 2 a.m. they learned their mistake.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you show your eyewitnesses in 1967 or whenever it was
      4  the Eberstein telegram of 2.10 a.m.?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That would not be the way I would conduct an interview.
      6  I would go there and learn exactly what they knew without
      7  showing them documents.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you not think it sensible to test a person’s
      9  recollection, however amicably you do it, after more than
    10  20 years by reference to the contemporaneous
    11  documentation?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Gray, if you read the transcripts of these interviews
    13  —-
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are getting confused between
    15  Rampton and me.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  You do me too much of an honour, Mr Irving, I am
    17  afraid.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry, Mr Rampton, I must remember Rampton.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not mind but I really would not think it was very
    20  nice for his Lordship.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, you have read the transcripts of my interviews
    22  with these Adjutants of Hitler because they are verbatim,
    23  and you will see that we did not go there with a set
    24  agenda to talk about. I would go along there, we would
    25  have tea, we would sit for five hours and talk about
    26  everything they remembered.

    .           P-56

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Old Hitler faithfuls and you swallowed their tale, if
      2  I may put it like that, hook line and sinker, did you not,
      3  because you wanted to?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: I swallow their tale?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: They were Hitler faithfuls?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You did not take any trouble to test their evidence
      8  by reference to the contemporaneous documentation. That
      9  is the last time I am going to ask that question.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: On the contrary, once I had conducted the interviews with
    11  these people, and I had a German secretary transcribe
    12  verbatim what they said, which transcripts you have had,
    13  I would then put that into the general dossier on that
    14  particular episode and I would weigh the interviews
    15  against the documents, which is precisely what I have done
    16  over the last 32 years for one book after another.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just intervene and ask this question?
    18  These diaries that Goebbels kept were for his own benefit,
    19  were they? They were not seen by others at the time?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, in 1933 he published the first volumes of diaries
    21  which covered the years of struggle, shall we say, up to
    22  the seizure of power and he was recalled from the
    23  Kaiserhof to the Reichschancellery. In 1936 he sold
    24  rights in all his diaries in perpetuity to the Nazi
    25  publishing house for a large lump sum.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So he was contemplating publication?

    .           P-57

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: They were very definitely written in contemplation of
      2  later publication. But that not necessarily mean to say
      3  that there were not also a lot of private materials in
      4  them which he did not intend to publish, particularly the
      5  handwritten diaries.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Now I want to pass on to something else, also part
      7  of the aftermath. One of the consequences of this
      8  appalling business, Mr Irving, was that some people were
      9  brought before whatever the Nazi party court was called.
    10  Can you remember what it was called?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: The Oberstes Parteigericht, the supreme public court.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just so we can be clear, that is not part of the
    13  established orthodox German judicial system at all, was
    14  it?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: No. It was a party court established under Walter Buch, B
    16  U C H, who was a sworn and dedicated personal enemy of
    17  Dr. Goebbels.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is as maybe.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not as maybe. You have to bear this in mind when
    20  you consider what the findings are which Buch signed.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The fact is, it was not part of the established judicial
    22  machinery, was it?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you cannot describe the people who bring people before
    25  the party court as the public prosecutors, can you?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: No.

    .           P-58

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you turn to page 281 of your Goebbels book, please?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just above the middle of the page there is a reference to
      4  Rudolf Hess. Do you see that?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The long paragraph: “Hess confirmed that in his view
      7  Goebbels was alone to blame. He ordered the Gestapo and
      8  the party’s courts to delve into the origins of the
      9  night’s violence and turn the culprits over to the public
    10  prosecutors.”
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My first question about that is this. Would you agree
    13  that that was apt to suggest to the reader that anybody
    14  found guilty of arson, looting, damage, assault, rape,
    15  murder, or whatever, was going to be prosecuted by the
    16  State judicial machinery once the matter had been
    17  investigated?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I think that what happened, which is covered by the
    19  sentence, was that a number of people, both inside and
    20  outside the party, exceeded their orders, if I can put it
    21  like that, and went on little private rampages. I mention
    22  one case where somebody murdered an opponent because he
    23  was going to testify against him in a libel action.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not really an answer to Mr Rampton’s
    25  question.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Would you repeat the question, emphasising the part—-

    .           P-59

    Section 59.26-76.23

      1  MR RAMPTON:  The question is this. Do you not agree that that
      2  sentence, not a long sentence, is apt to suggest to the
      3  reader that the matter was going to be investigated by the
      4  Gestapo and the party’s courts to find out the origins of
      5  the night’s violence and to turn the culprits, that is to
      6  say, those responsible for acts of violence of whatever
      7  kind against people or property, over to the public
      8  prosecutors so that they could be prosecuted according to
      9  the law?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I will not go beyond what that sentence actually says.
    11  What I intended it to mean to the reader I cannot recall
    12  now twelve years later, but it is footed in a very secure
    13  document of the day, December 1938.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are still not really addressing the
    15  question. If I read that, I think I would be inclined to
    16  think that these people were going to be prosecuted by the
    17  criminal system of the country.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, there was a large number of prosecutions in the
    19  regular courts and people went to jail for what they had
    20  done that night.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  Do you know the figures, Mr Irving?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I can find them for you, yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 16 cases in the report of 13th February 1939. I am coming
    24  back to what actually these people were considering, which
    25  is an initial limitation, but we will look at that in a
    26  moment.

    .           P-60

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: If we look at the aftermath of this sentence, so to speak,
      2  there were public prosecutions in the regular criminal
      3  courts and people went to jail for what they did on the
      4  night of broken glass in Germany. If you are interested
      5  in figures I will obtain them for you.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will give you the figures in a moment.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I will provide my own figures, if you do not mind.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Wait for Mr Rampton’s question. You may
      9  agree with it.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  It is entirely up to you what material you choose
    11  to put before the court. This is cross-examination,
    12  Mr Irving, not a speech by you. Mr Irving, can we look,
    13  please, and see what in fact was the directive which went
    14  out under Hess’s authority? It is in 293 and 4 of Evans.
    15  It is dated 19th December 1938. It is translated. My
    16  Lord, it is at the bottom of 293 in paragraph
    17  1. Professor Evans translates it as follows. The German
    18  is at the bottom of 294.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. This is the source of that particular sentence.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I know it is. “The aim of the investigation by the Party
    21  Court is to establish which cases can and must be held
    22  responsible by the action itself and which cases arose out
    23  of personal and base motives. In the latter cases a
    24  referral to the state prosecution service will be
    25  unavoidable, indeed it will be just”.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-61

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The only people who were going to be handed over to be
      2  prosecuted by the State criminal justice machinery were
      3  those who had acted out of base motives of their own.
      4  Anybody else, however grave their crime, would be let off?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where do we find that in your book?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: In this sentence. That document justifies the sentence
      8  I gave: “He ordered the Gestapo and the party’s courts to
      9  delve into the origins of the night’s violence and turn
    10  the culprits over to the public prosecutors.” We have
    11  already seen in the previous pages that a lot of the
    12  violence was authorised by the head of state, so quite
    13  clearly those culprits are not going to be turned over.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I am afraid I have now gone
    15  spinning round in 360 degrees. A lot of the violence was
    16  authorised by the head of State?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. We have seen that. There is no question about that.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In what sense?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Hitler has said pull the police back.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is authorizing the burning of
    21  synagogues?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord —-
    23  MR RAMPTON:  And the killing of Jews.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the answer to that question,
    25  Mr Irving?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: It is authorizing what happened in the run up to the

    .           P-62

      1  Reichskristallnacht. If you remember, it was not on the
      2  actual night of the broken glass once it got out of
      3  control. When Hitler heard that there were individual
      4  outbursts in Kassell and Magdeburg and other provinces, he
      5  said the police are not to intervene, they are to hold
      6  back, the public must be given a chance to express their
      7  outrage and so on. That is what I mean when I say that
      8  that kind of violence was certainly authorized by the head
      9  of State, and it was not appropriate to turn people like
    10  that that over to the law courts. But there were other
    11  people who then went and settled private scores and that
    12  is what has been winkled out by these party court
    13  operations.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Shall we just have a look at some figures? Page
    15  295 of Evans, Mr Irving. Paragraph 3, my Lord. Set out
    16  are what the people’s court, or whatever they call
    17  themselves, set out above are what I take to be what they
    18  saw as their terms of reference. Perhaps I ought to read
    19  that as a preliminary:
    20  “The Fuhrer’s’s Deputy”, that is Hess, is it
    21  not, “shared the view of the Supreme Party Court that the
    22  excesses which had become known should in any case first
    23  be investigated by the party jurisdiction … The view of
    24  the Supreme Party Court”, this is in February 1939, “is
    25  that it must be fundamentally impossible for political
    26  offences which primarily touch on the party’s interests,

    .           P-63

      1  offences which … are desired by the party as illegal
      2  measures,” you notice that wording, do you not?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “desired by the party as illegal measures, are confirmed
      5  and condemned by state jurisdiction, without the party
      6  previously having the possibility of creating clarity
      7  about the events and contexts through its own courts, in
      8  order if necessary to ask the Fuhrer to quash the trial
      9  before the state courts at the right moment”. This was
    10  just intended to be a complete whitewash, was it not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Unfortunately, Professor Evans has, in his amiable way,
    12  translated only a fraction of the actual document which
    13  you will find under tab 2 of trial bundle L2, and you will
    14  find there that he lists there horrendous outrages
    15  conducted during the Reichskristallnacht at the end of
    16  1938. I will translate very roughly to you, Mr Rampton:
    17  The Supreme Party court — does your Lordship wish to look
    18  at the original German?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. I am listening to you. I am happy to
    20  follow you.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: This is on page handwritten 3 of that document which
    22  Professor Evans has quoted from. At the end of November
    23  1938 the Supreme Party court received from various gau
    24  courts, in other words the provincial party courts,
    25  information that in the conduct of the demonstrations on
    26  9th November 1938, that is the Reichskristallnacht, in a

    .           P-64

      1  considerable degree there had been plundering and killings
      2  of Jews which are already being investigated by the police
      3  and public prosecutors, and so on.
      4  It then continues about how these various things
      5  are going to be investigated and it specifies particular
      6  episodes on the following day, crime committed by
      7  individual people who are named here, a whole series of
      8  them, then 16 specific episodes given just in that one
      9  party court file.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  I hear what you say. If we need it, we will have
    11  a translation made of the whole that report.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It does seem that Evans — I mean, the dot dot dot he has
    13  put in there does conceal quite a lot.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No doubt with an eye to saving paper. We can have it
    15  translated if necessary. You can take it up with Professor
    16  Evans.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: You keep saying I can take these things up with Professor
    18  Evans, but at present his Lordship only has your word and
    19  this document in front of him in translation.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. I have got what you tell me is also
    21  there and, unless and until Professor Evans says that you
    22  are wrong about that, I will assume you are right.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  I cannot possibly take it up with you, Mr Irving.
    24  I do not have a translation. Paragraph 3 on page 295 of
    25  Evans, please?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-65

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where the Party Courts drew the line between actions which
      2  could be justified, and those which were judged to have
      3  been committed out of vile” — I could say base , I
      4  suppose, could I not? — “motives, becomes clear in the
      5  various judgments of the Party Courts. For instance, in
      6  the report of 13th February 1939, Goring was informed of
      7  the outcome of the investigations in 16 cases which the
      8  Supreme Party Court had undertaken. In only two of the 16
      9  cases, both involving the rape of Jewish women, had the
    10  Party Court transferred the perpetrators to ordinary
    11  criminal courts (and in these two cases the party judges
    12  were not motivated by concern for the victims, but simply
    13  by the fact that Nazi party members had committed ‘racial
    14  defilement’ or in other words compromised what the party
    15  regarded as their own racial purity). In all the other 14
    16  cases the Supreme Party Court asked Hitler to quash
    17  proceedings. These cases included the brutal murder of 21
    18  Jews, who had been shot dead, stabbed to death or drowned
    19  by Nazi party members. The worst punishment meted out to
    20  these murderers was an official warning and barring from
    21  any Nazi party office for a period of three years. The
    22  great majority of offenders received even milder
    23  ‘punishments’, or none at all.” Is that true or false,
    24  that account given by Professor Evans?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, Professor Evans has not given us the source of
    26  information for what happened to these people,

    .           P-66

      1  unfortunately. He has just relied on this one report
      2  which deals with the investigation of these cases, but he
      3  has not told us what he relies on for the outcome of the
      4  cases.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 14 out of 16, the two transferred to be prosecuted in the
      6  normal way being rapists?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: You heard me say earlier that there were substantially
      8  more cases than just the 16, and I will certainly be
      9  presenting to the court the evidence of the other cases.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us stick with the 16. You are being
    11  asked, do you quarrel with this?
    12  MR RAMPTON:  You have only two out of 16. You have 14 that get
    13  let off despite being murderers.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: We do not know what his evidence is for that.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is in the report. He says ibid, which is his footnote
    16  for 130, which means the same report, the report to
    17  Goring.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: In cases 3 to 16 the Supreme Party Court requests that the
    19  Fuhrer halt the proceedings in the regular criminal court,
    20  so it does look as though those 16 were not further
    21  prosecuted.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Two of them were, apparently.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So they get off just because they are jolly party members
    25  acting in accordance with the wish of the Fuhrer and
    26  murdering Jews?

    .           P-67

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: How does that chime with what you wrote in Goebbels?
      3  “Hess ordered the Gestapo and the party’s courts to delve
      4  into the origins of the night’s violence and turn the
      5  culprits over to the public prosecutors”?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: He did. That is the document of December 1938.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On the contrary, Mr Irving —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: No, my Lord —-
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  14 of them never went to the criminal courts.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, the sentence, he ordered the Gestapo and the
    11  party’s courts to delve into the origins and so on, Hess
    12  ordered and so on, to delve into the origins of the
    13  night’s violence and turn the culprits over to the public
    14  prosecutors, they did then enquire and delve, and
    15  subsequently in February 1939 there is this later report
    16  of what the outcome was.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They just got a ticking off for raping and
    18  killing.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: This is absolutely right, my Lord, but there were then
    20  very many other cases to which this document makes no
    21  reference where prosecutions were carried out, and I shall
    22  bring that evidence forward.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  You make no reference in your book to this
    24  absolutely scandalous manipulation of the justice system,
    25  do you?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I think I make any amount of reference in the Goebbels

    .           P-68

      1  biography to the manipulation of the justice system by the
      2  Nazis. There is any amount of evidence of the way that
      3  they twisted the system in order to prosecute Catholic
      4  priests and so on. The whole way through the book I have
      5  shown the cynical manipulation of the German justice
      6  system but there is a limit to how much you can keep on
      7  packing into a book without making it 2,000 pages long or
      8  filled with the 8 pages of sludge that I referred to
      9  earlier. You have to halt the story at some point and
    10  proceed.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: To avoid misrepresentation, which I suggest this is an
    12  absolutely scandalous example, it is much better to leave
    13  it out. If you cannot find enough space to put in the
    14  truth, leave it out.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: You are not suggesting the sentence that I wrote there is
    16  not the truth? It is absolutely true.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course I am.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: They ordered an investigation but at some point, we are
    19  dealing here with December 1938, you then draw the line.
    20  You have mentioned how many people have been thrown into
    21  concentration camps, you have mentioned the murders, you
    22  have mentioned the huge amount of looting and destruction
    23  that went on, and now I am being criticised because I have
    24  not referred to 16 specific cases where the Nazis acted in
    25  a perverse way when it was not Goebbels who was acting in
    26  a perverse way, it is the rest of the Nazi system that is

    .           P-69

      1  operating in a perverse way.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You knew perfectly well when you wrote this that it was
      3  the intention of the Nazi Party that all but a tiny
      4  minority of those guilty of everything from murder
      5  downwards should get off. You never said it?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: First of all, there is no evidence of any such intention
      7  and I am not writing a book about the Nazi justice
      8  system. If I was to write a book about the Nazi justice
      9  system, I would have gone in far greater detail into this
    10  kind of evidence. I am writing a biography of the man,
    11  Dr Josef Goebbels, who triggered this outrage, and there
    12  comes a point where you draw a line and say, “That is as
    13  far as one is going down that particular story because we
    14  now have other things to relate”. Elsewhere in the book
    15  I have given any amount of evidence of specific
    16  distortions of the German justice system with which he was
    17  personally involved, for example, the prosecution of the
    18  German priests and the prosecution of Pastor Niemoeller,
    19  and so on.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I want to turn now, if I may, to Dresden.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, so we can put away Evans, can we not?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  He can be put by way, as it were. There are one
    23  or two places where the full text of a document is quoted
    24  in evidence which we may need to look at, but I would
    25  recommend using what I call the Heather Rogers’ Guide to
    26  Dresden.

    .           P-70

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think I have got it.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  No, it is coming.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: But, I will, in fact, be in a position to call the
      4  evidence of the other convictions that resulted from the
      5  Kristallnacht —-
      6  MR RAMPTON:  By all means do.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, do.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: — if you attach importance to it.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, neither your Lordship nor Mr Irving has
    10  seen this document. I would like to use it because, as
    11  far as I am concerned, it is both comprehensive and
    12  accurate. When I say that it contains a comprehensive
    13  catalogue in date order of all the material to which
    14  I want to refer.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I think I will do with it is put it in
    16  your summary of place, is that a good idea?
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, that is a good idea, in the Dresden section.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you producing a file on Dresden?
    19  MR RAMPTON:  There is a file on Dresden. Sorry, my Lord, about
    20  this conversation. It is meant to be helpful.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I also provided your Lordship with a small clip
    22  of documents.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We might put it in the same file, I suspect.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is why I was mentioning that.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  I have here two sets of documents, one of which
    26  one might call the David Irving original research file, or

    .           P-71

      1  clip, the other is some of what Mr Irving has said on this
      2  question. I am trying to not refer to those if I possibly
      3  can because I want to use this schedule here. My Lord,
      4  there is an empty file on the bench, I think, if those
      5  could go in as tabs 2 and 3?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think I have this empty file. Has
      7  it got anything on the back of it?
      8  MR RAMPTON:  L1.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  L1, yes. This is going to become Dresden, is
    10  it?
    11  MR RAMPTON:  Well, the first part is history. That is not what
    12  I meant. The first part is Hitler/Horthy which is a very
    13  slim clip of, I think, two pages or something, and the
    14  next two tabs can be Dresden.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to ask if somebody can put this
    16  into tab 2 because they have been individually hole
    17  punched so that it is half an hour’s work.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. Before I start on this topic, my Lord,
    19  I think I need to know from Mr Irving through your
    20  Lordship whether he has any objection (and he has not seen
    21  it before) to using this tabular schedule that I have just
    22  handed in.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does it contain anything that is not in the
    24  other documents?
    25  MR RAMPTON:  It is all taken from the documents.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you happy with that, Mr Irving?

    .           P-72

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, with reservations, yes. I think it contains
      2  prejudicial material which does not — but it depends how
      3  he presents it
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us work off it anyway, shall we?
      5  MR RAMPTON:  Let us start off anyway. My Lord, I start on page
      6  3. I should preface that by saying on page 1 your
      7  Lordship will see as the first four items listed four
      8  authentic German, that is to say Nazi German, wartime
      9  documents dealing with the numbers of dead as a result of
    10  allied bombing at Dresden in February 1945. As your
    11  Lordship will see, there is no dispute about the
    12  authenticity of any of those four documents. That is
    13  right, is it not, Mr Irving?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not have them in front of me yet.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You know what they are, 15th March 1945, final report?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 22nd March 1945, situation report 1404; the real
    18  Tagesbefehl 47 of 22nd March 1945, not the fake, and the
    19  situation report 1414 of the Chief of Police of 3rd April
    20  1945. You are well familiar with all those documents, are
    21  you not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sure about No. 3 and 4 until I actually see them. Do
    23  they come from my discovery?
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: As far as I know. I think perhaps the last one comes from
    25  Bergander, but I am not sure. There is no doubt that the
    26  real Tagesbefehl was obtained, I think was sent to you by

    .           P-73

      1  Bergander, but I am not sure, in 1977. Have you seen the
      2  real Tagesbefehl — the non-faked one?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am afraid my bundle is not assisting me here.
      4  Where do I find these four documents in the bundle?
      5  I have got 15th March one.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know that I can tell you that.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I have 22nd March one.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Because for one thing I can hardly read it. There is a
      9  document on page 7, for example, which might be anything.
    10  There is a document of 22nd March at page 8.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, those two I am familiar with.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. That goes on and on.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: That goes on and on. I am lacking the next 22nd March one
    14  which you say is Tagesbefehl 47.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know if there is a next 22nd March one. I
    16  really cannot help. But these documents all, I think —
    17  we think that these documents came from your discovery,
    18  such as we have. But you know what I mean by the real
    19  Tagesbefehl 47, do you not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I do not. The only one that I am familiar with is
    21  the one turns out to have been faked by the German
    22  Propaganda Ministry.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  I see.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is the original? I mean the genuine
    25  one? It does not look as if it is in the bundle.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  No, it does not, I agree. I do not know

    .           P-74

      1  actually. It is referred to in a book by somebody called
      2  Bergander in 1977.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think there is a genuine one, document No. 47.
      4  The only one I have seen was a fake which was produced by
      5  the Goebbels Propaganda Ministry for propaganda purposes.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, which had an extra 0 added to all its
      7  figures, did it not?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It multiplied everything by an order of magnitude, yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you turn to page 11, my Lord, of the table, it says,
    10  basing herself on Professor Evans, Miss Rogers writes
    11  this: “1977, the real TB 47 comes to light. It is
    12  discovered by Bergander who found a reservist Ehrlich who
    13  had a copy cited at page 261 of Bergander, etc. Evans
    14  describes Bergander as the most authoritative work”, and
    15  so on and so forth. I dare say if you have not read
    16  Bergander, Mr Irving (and I know you do not read other
    17  people’s books) you will not be conscious of —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, Gutz Bergander was a very good friend of mine — he
    19  still is a very good friend of mine.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Have you read this 1977 book of his?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not, no.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then the answer to my question was, “You are quite right,
    23  I do not read even my friend’s books and so I am not
    24  familiar with this document”. Is that right?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I gave him a great deal of assistance when he was
    26  writing his book, but I had no reason to read his book

    .           P-75

      1  because I was no longer writing about Dresden.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Whether or not he has found the real one, and I expect you
      3  to accept that he has —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the first I have heard of it actually at this
      5  moment there is supposed to have been a real one.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. But the interesting thing about the real one, as you
      7  will see in a moment, is that its numbers coincide more or
      8  less —-
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, we have not been shown it. I cannot comment on
    10  that.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 67, tab 2.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It was in his book, right. Is this from a printed book?
    13  MR RAMPTON:  No, this is from Bergander.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So we have not got it?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  We have not got the document, no.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you referring to the handwritten page 67 or typed?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Handwritten. That looks like Bergander.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  It does.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot see any reference to the Tagesbefehl. It is
    20  T-A-G-E-S B-E-F-E-H-L.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 235. I am probably wrong, but there is
    22  a reference to “befehl” there. No, I think it is a
    23  different “befehl”.

    Section 76.24-91.2

    24  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I can tell your Lordship this, that on
    25  page 553, 552 and 53, Professor Evans reports the
    26  discovery of the real TB 47 by Bergander through Ehrlich

    .           P-76

      1  and at paragraph 2 on page 553 he says this: “In this
      2  new, authentic Ehrlich copy the death figure was put at
      3  20,204, the expected dead at 25,000 and the number
      4  cremated at 6,865″, which are exactly the same figures as
      5  in the fake or forged TB 47 except for the missing 0 at
      6  the end.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: In fact, I calculated that myself when I rewrote the
      8  Dresden book three or four years ago. I spotted the fact
      9  that somebody had clearly juggled the figures, but this is
    10  literally the first I ever heard of the existence of a
    11  real Tagesbefehl.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the reference given for that is Bergander at page
    13  261.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the reason I mention that this is the first I
    15  have heard of it is I see that here Professor Evans in his
    16  infinite wisdom is saying, “despite having been finally
    17  forced to disown”, what by? I never knew there was a real
    18  one. I have always recognized the other one was fake.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have not always recognized it, Mr Irving. We are
    20  coming back to that.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, ever since — the last 20 or 30 years I recognized
    22  it was fake because the figures were so totally inflated.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: All I am asking you to accept — you can look at it in
    24  Bergander, it is on page 77 of tab 2 of the file.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is right.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  All I am asking you to accept, because it does

    .           P-77

      1  save such a lot of time — there is no trap in it — is
      2  that the real Bergander (sic) was found and that, as one
      3  would expect, its figures are short by a 0.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You said the real Bergander, you mean the
      5  real Tagesbefehl?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  I mean the real Tagesbefehl, sorry, yes.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I shall get on the phone to Mr Bergander tonight and ask
      8  him if he knows about this.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, it is in his book at page 261.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I shall conceal the fact I did not read his book.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You can tell him that you were forced to read it in court
    12  if you want?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You can tell him you were forced to read it in court.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, we cannot read it in court because you have not got
    16  it. You have only got his book. We have got his —-
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: As I say, his book?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, the book, yes, but I would have liked to have seen the
    19  document itself which he says he has.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, so would I. I wonder where it is?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know. Perhaps Mr Bergander has it. I do
    22  not know.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Perhaps I can get him to fax to me.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But it really does not matter.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it does because — well, I am not going to
    26  presuppose what you were going to say.

    .           P-78

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am only asking you to accept that the figures for deaths
      2  and expected deaths in the real version are 20,000 and
      3  25,000, respectively?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. That closely tallies with the Police Chief’s report
      5  of that date.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is all I was driving at.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: And I reached this deduction independently of all this
    10  about five years ago when I rewrote my Dresden book.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is as may be. In fact, document — I will just read
    12  out the figures and then we can get on — the final report
    13  of 15th March 1945 which I think you have got, or have
    14  seen?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: You call it the final report?
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is called the final report of the Dresden Police sent
    17  to you on 27th May 1966 —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I am bit unhappy — oh, it is called
    19  “Flusmeldung”, right?
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: 15th March.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which should be pages 17 of tab 2 in this file.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct, yes. It is the final report on the four
    24  air raids.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, good. The figures given in that document, I am told
    26  by Professor Evans (but you dispute it, if you wish) are

    .           P-79

      1  18,735 dead, 212 badly wounded and quite a lot more people
      2  slighted wounded, is that right? It is no good —
      3  I cannot read it, so…
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, of course, the Police Chief actually does not spell
      5  it out quite like that. He says, “18,000 bodies so far
      6  found”, I believe, which is a subtle difference.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sure, and we will come to that along down the road, I am
      8  sure, Mr Irving. The situation report 1404 of 22nd March
      9  1945?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Situation report gives figures of, I think, and it may be
    12  there is a misprint because it is odd that it is 18,375
    13  and not 735. Maybe they have been adjusted. 25,000 total
    14  expected and 35,000 missing, is that right?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. The interesting thing was that the one document was
    16  supplied to me in 1966 by the Soviet Authorities and
    17  simultaneously in the same mail I received the other
    18  document from the West German Authorities. They had found
    19  it in the German Finance Ministry files.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Middle to end of May 1966, is that right?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, this is three years after I published my book.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I want to go back, if I may, because again I am not
    23  interested for this purpose — I know you will get angry
    24  about it, but I am not — I am not interested in what
    25  actually happened at Dresden or in the total numbers,
    26  though that, as it has in other areas of the case, may

    .           P-80

      1  emerge —-
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: I remember you said, “So what?”
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, because that is not what this case is about,
      4  Mr Irving. You accuse people too readily of a kind of
      5  callousness, I do believe. We are investigating your bona
      6  fides as an historian and nothing more than that.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you were the one who said, “So what?” —-
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, because the reference to Dresden was irrelevant —-
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: — about the way we killed 100,000 people in one night.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — to your reference to Auschwitz. Now, just keep our
    11  eye on the ball, if we may. Would you turn to page 3 of
    12  this tabular document, please? Is it right that in
    13  November 1964 you were in Dresden and you visited somebody
    14  called Hahn, is that right?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Walter Hahn.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Is it right that when you were in the sitting room
    17  Hahn and a man called Walter Lange, who is the director of
    18  the Dresden City Archive, began to discuss the
    19  implications of the 200,000 figure, yes?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, if you have a source for that, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have your own words.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: A diary or?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Page 517 of Evans. When you came back from this visit,
    24  you wrote a long memorandum, did you not? It is in the
    25  file.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.

    .           P-81

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is difficult to read because it is a photograph of a
      2  negative or whatever.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I would much prefer to read it from Evans’ text. “‘Lange
      5  had not realized that it gave this figure'”, that is the
      6  so-call TB 47, “‘and I at once realised why Hahn had
      7  seemed reluctant it show it to me (in fact he had had that
      8  probably since 1950 or so, yet he had not shown it to me
      9  on any of my previous visits in 1962 and 1963)'”. Then
    10  comes this: “‘As soon as Lange began to expostulate on
    11  this document being a patent forgery, Hahn became very
    12  worried'”. What sort of man is or was Lange, Mr Irving?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: He was a short, bald headed gentleman with a prominent
    14  Communist Party badge in his lapel.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What sort of a man is or was Professor Seydewitz?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He was the former Mayor of Dresden and, obviously, a
    17  Communist Party official.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Both of those, I think I am right, cast doubt on, if not
    19  the authenticity of the document, certainly the
    20  reliability of the figure, did they not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not sure that Walter Lange did, but Max Seydewitz had
    22  published his own book on air raids on Dresden — a very
    23  good book — and he produced different figures.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You knew from the beginning — for you this is the
    25  beginning — that there was grave doubt about the figures
    26  given in this document?

    .           P-82

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That the figure for dead was 202,000 plus and the figure
      3  for expected death, again a forgery, was 250,000, was it
      4  not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You knew from this time and said you thought the document
      7  was genuine, but that the 200,000 figure might be suspect?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You said that on a number of occasions. If we turn over
    10  to page 4 of the table, you said it to —-
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Of the table?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — to Mr McLachlan, the Editor of the Sunday Telegraph:
    13  “It remains to be established whether” — this is the
    14  second box, 26th November ’64 — “the 200,000 number it
    15  contains is equally genuine and if not why not”.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, yes, that sentence is quoted.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And on 28th of November 1964 you wrote to a Herr Struss,
    18  Deiter Struss, I think his name was?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: My German publisher.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, my German publisher.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, your German publisher, referring to the death figure
    23  of 202,040 people. You said: “This information is
    24  naturally sensational and because it comes from the then
    25  Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Dr Max Funfack, there is no
    26  doubt about the authenticity of the document.” Now, did

    .           P-83

      1  you in that letter to Herr Struss express any doubt about
      2  the figure?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Without seeing these two letters, it is difficult to
      4  see —-
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I quite share that, if I may say so.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: — exactly what the context these sentences are taken out
      7  of.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Page 37 of tab 2. It is probably written in German,
      9  I should think, since it is from you to a German
    10  gentleman. It is page 37 and 8. It is a letter from you
    11  to Herr Dr Struss. Can I ask you to read it to yourself?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is the relevant bit, Mr Rampton, do you
    13  know?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  It is right in the first paragraph, my Lord.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: They do not seem to be irreconcilable. In the previous
    16  letter on page 36, I say, “Having now examined the
    17  document minutely myself, I am satisfied of its
    18  authenticity. It remains to be established whether the
    19  200,000 number it contains is equally genuine and if not
    20  why not”.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  That is what you said on 26th November —-
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: And two days later I then write to Dr Struss.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Tell us whether in that letter — my only question
    24  this, I do not know, I have not read the whole letter —
    25  you raise a doubt about the reliability of the number in
    26  the same way as you had two days earlier to the Editor of

    .           P-84

      1  whatever the paper was, The Telegraph.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It is exactly the same. “This information is naturally
      3  sensational and coming as it does from the Deputy Local
      4  Chief Doctor, Dr Max Funfack, there could be no doubt as
      5  to the authenticity of the document”.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Fair enough. I quite agree. What I asked was whether in
      7  this document Dr Struss, your German publisher, you raise
      8  any doubts about the reliability of the figures which is
      9  the key to this argument, Mr Irving. You need to read the
    10  whole of it.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: “I have just returned from a visit to Dresden and I have
    12  received from confidential sources the Police report of
    13  the Police Chief in Dresden on the four air raids”. This
    14  is the Tagesbefehl 47, of course, not the final report.
    15  “This document gives the death roll known as of that date
    16  as 202,040. This information is naturally sensational and
    17  coming as it does from the Deputy Local Chief Doctor,
    18  Dr Max Funfack, there can be no doubt as to the
    19  authenticity of the document. This document has been
    20  mentioned in Eastern Germany, in other words, Communist
    21  Eastern Germany, but only with the comment that it is a
    22  Nazi propaganda lie, and extracts have been published from
    23  it. I accept this judgment on page 245 of our book”.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which judgment is that?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Of the propaganda lie, presumably. Without checking the
    26  book, I cannot tell.

    .           P-85

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, now —-
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Urteil” means “judgment”, does it?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: “Urteil” is “judgment”, yes, or “verdict”.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you just read the next rather long convoluted
      5  sentence?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: “As I have now seen the complete document with my own
      7  eyes, I do not doubt that it is genuine, and should there
      8  be a second edition of my Dresden book, this information
      9  should certainly be incorporated, possibly as an appendix,
    10  perhaps mentioned instead on pages 295 to 296 of the
    11  present appendix on these pages”.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Including the number of dead? You do not say that, but
    13  that is what you mean, is it not?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, reproducing the document and I believe I am right in
    15  saying that is what we actually did. We reproduced the
    16  document in toto as an appendix which is what one would do
    17  with a document that one wants to present to readers
    18  without necessarily forming a judgment on it.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  You say that, Mr Irving. You see, what I am I am
    20  wondering is how it came about, as I shall shortly,
    21  I hope, show.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I have to introduce the caveat, of course, you are asking
    23  me about things that lie 36 years back.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course. This is why contemporaneous documents are so
    25  valuable, Mr Irving.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed, and if you ask for my recollection of things, like

    .           P-86

      1  what I said at a meeting with a man in his front room…
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will show you the documents.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it is better that we refer to the documents.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why it was, Mr Irving, that with such rapidity between
      5  26th November and onwards, from 26th November onwards,
      6  your lingering doubts, if indeed you had any, about the
      7  reliability of the numbers seems to have evaporated?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I do not think I have referred in this letter —
      9  I may be mistaken — to saying, I do not think I have said
    10  that the figure is genuine. I have said the document
    11  appears to be genuine, but I have doubts, as I make quite
    12  plain in the letter two days earlier to McLachlan, who is
    13  an intelligence chief himself, about the actual figure.
    14  So, clearly, one has to carry out further investigations.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us see what you said, roughly speaking, a week
    16  later —-
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: If I can just continue? Of course, clearly, it would have
    18  been improper for me to suppress the document in any way.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not suggesting you should have done, not for a
    20  moment.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It might have been an interesting document. It turned out
    23  to be —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: It turned out 20 or 30 years later to be totally fake, and
    25  interesting in as much as it was issued by the Goebbels
    26  propaganda ministry.

    .           P-87

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Actually about 10 years later but that does not matter.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: As far as I am concerned, it was 20 or 30 years later.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us see how your attitude to this document, which
      4  I quite accept you did not know at the time was a fake,
      5  though you had expressed considerable doubts about the
      6  reliability of the figures up until now. 6th December
      7  1964, you wrote to the Provost of Coventry. The only
      8  mistake in Miss Rogers’ document is that she describes the
      9  Provost of Coventry as Mr Cunningham. That is, in fact,
    10  Mr Irving’s telephone number, telephone exchange?
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  She is too young to have remembered that.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  It was Cunningham 8426 for anybody that is
    13  interested. It was late at night, I know that. That is
    14  on page 40 of this document. This, I think —-
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we look previously on December 1st, the letter where
    16  I am writing to the German Federal archives trying to make
    17  attempts to find out more about the people concerned and
    18  the authenticity of the document?
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Again I have no translation of this which is why I have
    20  not referred to it. If it is important, please tell us
    21  what it says.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: “Dear Colonel Teska, during a recent visit to Dresden, I
    23  have received from an erstwhile officer in Dresden who
    24  during the war was the Local Chief Medic in Dresden,
    25  Dr Max Funfack a copy of the attached document. As you
    26  can see, it is supposed to be an order of the day issued

    .           P-88

      1  by the Dresden Police Chief in which for the first time
      2  the number of air raid dead is provisionally estimated at
      3  202,040. Obviously, it is important for me to establish
      4  how genuine this document is, and I am trying to locate
      5  the officers who signed this document, Colonel Grosse”,
      6  G-R-O-S-S-E, and so on. I have written to the German
      7  Federal Government, the archivist trying to track down the
      8  authenticity of the document.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is very proper, if I may say so, a very proper
    10  proceeding, Mr Irving. Before you barge into the public
    11  arena waving the document and saying how wicked the Allies
    12  were, it is best to be sure that the document is genuine
    13  and the figure is reliable, do you not agree?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I consider this to be wicked, burning thousands of bodies
    15  at a time in a public funeral. You may say: “So what?”,
    16  but you are saying about how wicked the Allies are. It is
    17  a war crime and there is no way round it.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us clear the air. Nobody on this side of the court is
    19  supposing that it is a jolly good thing that, let us say,
    20  25,000 or 35,000 innocent German civilians were roasted to
    21  death in Dresden in 1945.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Roasted to death?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are concerned about your gigantic appetite for
    24  distorting and exaggerating; that is all I am concerned
    25  with. I think it was your correspondent — I cannot
    26  remember his name now — a German gentleman who drew your

    .           P-89

      1  attention to the fact that it was probably only 35,000?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Only 35,000 people burned alive in one night by the
      3  British.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and he said —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: A charming term of phrase, only 35,000.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: As opposed to the huge figures you were punting about and
      7  he said, with which nobody would disagree, that is bad
      8  enough, that is two divisions.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: At least he did not say: “So what?”
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Irving, I think you are being unfair
    11  when you pick on that phrase when it was used in context
    12  and Mr Rampton was not belittling the tragedy of the
    13  bombing. So you have made your point. I do not think it
    14  is a fair one, but let us move on.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Do you not think it even worst or even more of an
    16  offence to those people who died in Germany and
    17  Dresden —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I think his Lordship has said that we should move on.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — To exaggerate the numbers of the dead for your own
    20  base-political purposes, do you not think that would be
    21  worse, Mr Irving?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I think his Lordship said we should move on.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a different point, but, anyway,
    24  I think it is comment.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Is there anything else in this letter from you to
    26  Colonel Teska on 1st December 1964 to which you want to

    .           P-90

      1  draw attention?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: No.

    Section 91.3-109.7

      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us see what you said five days letter in a letter to
      4  the Provost of Coventry. Was Coventry holding some kind
      5  of memorial exhibition or what?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Coventry is a twinned city with Dresden and I was
      7  collaborating with the Coventry Cathedral authorities in
      8  their celebrations.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Coventry was quite badly bombed in the war, too, but not
    10  as badly as Dresden.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I believe 300 people were killed, were they not?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Not as bad as Dresden. Mr Irving, please keep your eye on
    13  the ball.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Actually, Mr Rampton, if I may say so, that
    15  may have been slightly your fault.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  But there is no doubt one reason for what you call
    17  the Dresden/Coventry link, is there not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: They are both victims of bombing during the war?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Both cities were used for propaganda purposes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Both bombing raids were used for propaganda purposes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have no doubt, war is a terrible thing. “I am now
    24  enclosing”, this is dated 6th December 1964, “I am now
    25  enclosing a large number of photographs of the destruction
    26  caused in Dresden by the Allied bombing. Some of them

    .           P-91

      1  should be suitable for the exhibition we had in mind to
      2  raise funds for the Dresden/Coventry link. I have
      3  enclosed several duplicates of some of the best for a
      4  particular purpose. I suggest that when your exhibition
      5  opens you might circulate these both to the local and
      6  national newspapers as free publicity material which they
      7  can print if they like”.
      8  “To drive home the impact of the exhibition,
      9  I also suggest that you have the text of the Police
    10  President’s report on the Dresden raid attached, printed
    11  in large type. I think that it is nonchalance and the
    12  casualties” (please note those words) “it mentions have a
    13  shattering impact. Please also feel free to quote any
    14  excerpts you wish from my book or, for example, from the
    15  feelings expressed by RAF airmen, without acknowledgment
    16  if you wish. The Police President’s report is really
    17  something sensational. I brought it back from Dresden two
    18  weeks ago and I have been trying to establish its
    19  authenticity through Ministry of Defence channels”.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Also, in addition to the German archives.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Now this: (Underlined) “I am myself in no doubt as
    22  to the authenticity of the document.”
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I point out that I have not underlined that document
    24  myself.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is not your underlining?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: It is certainly not typed in; nor have I done that line

    .           P-92

      1  down the left-hand margin.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I had assumed you had not.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  I did not take the line down the side to be
      4  yours. I am not accepting that it is not possible when
      5  you have typed a letter and looked at it and thought that
      6  is an important passage, I will underline that in ink, but
      7  that is not what you did.
      8  “In view of having obtained it indirectly from
      9  the Dresden Deputy Chief Medical Officer responsible for
    10  the disposing of the victims still lives in Dresden. It
    11  was circulated to him officially in March 1945. Please
    12  note that I am leaving”, so on and so forth, “at the end
    13  of December for three and a half months”.
    14  Mr Irving, you will agree, I hope, that you are
    15  urging the Provost of Coventry to put into his exhibition,
    16  with as much effect as he can achieve, a document which
    17  shows casualties of 202,040 people?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And yet, Mr Irving, you still were not certain, or should
    20  not still have been certain, that those figures were
    21  accurate?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I said quite clearly here that I am satisfied as to the
    23  authenticity of the document, and we now know that the
    24  document is accurate, except for the figures.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, in your earlier correspondence —-
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: The document also mentions enormous damage to buildings

    .           P-93

      1  which, if you have been to Dresden you will know precisely
      2  which buildings we British were responsible for destroying
      3  that day —-
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What has that got to do with casualties?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I heard laughter in court and I thought I should make
      6  plain that this document did not —-
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Because your answer was absurd, no doubt, Mr Irving. You
      8  have just been telling us that, we have been through it,
      9  how you had lingering and then disappeared doubts about
    10  the authenticity of the document —-
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Of the figure.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You were satisfied of the authenticity of the document,
    13  but had doubts about the reliability of the figure?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Those doubts about the reliability of the figures have now
    16  disappeared. Why?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: I have told him that I am in no doubt at all as to the
    18  reliability of the document, The authenticity of the
    19  document because of where it came from.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You are asking the Provost of the Cathedral of Coventry to
    21  plaster these figures, the casualties it mentions which
    22  have a shattering affect, impact all over his exhibition.
    23  Why, if you do not believe that the figures are reliable?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you suggesting that at this time I had any reason to
    25  doubt that the figures were inaccurate?
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have said so a dozen times.

    .           P-94

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I said I am investigating the figures and I am going to
      2  great lengths at this time, through the various archives
      3  and governments, to find out what I can about the people
      4  who signed the document.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have known from the beginning that the figures were
      6  suspicious, have you not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Suspicion inasmuch as I have not seen them substantiated
      8  by other documents, for example, on the Eastern Front, we
      9  have seen some of the major figures of the killings of the
    10  Jews substantiated by the lower-level documents on which
    11  those totals are based, and I would have liked to have
    12  seen similar documents reflecting these totals, as indeed
    13  subsequently turned up in 1966 when the West German
    14  Government and the East German Government simultaneously
    15  provided me with corroborating documents for their
    16  document.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: A month before this document was sent to the gullible
    18  Provost of Coventry Cathedral, you wrote a long memorandum
    19  which had as part of its introduction (my Lord, it is page
    20  27 of tab 2), in paragraph 4, you wrote this, Mr Irving —
    21  Has your Lordship got it?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Obviously, it is of some importance to determine,
    24  one, whether the document is genuine, i.e. was really
    25  written by the person claiming to have signed it and on
    26  the date specified; and two, if the document is genuine,

    .           P-95

      1  whether the 202,040 figure is itself an accurate and true
      2  detail or whether it was deliberately falsified at this
      3  time. By the time you write to the Provost of Coventry on
      4  6th December 1964, that last enquiry, that last doubt,
      5  equivocation seems to have disappeared, am I right?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Have I specifically said to the Provost of Coventry there
      7  is no doubt that these figures are accurate?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but, Mr Irving, bear with me; you could hardly invite
      9  the Provost of Coventry to include, with maximum impact,
    10  in his exhibition these figures, if you did not think that
    11  they were reliable — if you were an honest man, I mean?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: But you are familiar with the fact that the document does
    13  not just refer to death or casualties; it refers to the
    14  entire damage which was inflicted on that city.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Casualties”, Mr Irving, is your word, the casualties, it
    16  mentions, have a shattering impact. Of course they will
    17  do if they are authentic and reliable. But, Mr Irving,
    18  what if they are not?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you suggesting that the people of Coventry would have
    20  been any less dismayed or shocked if the figure had been
    21  35,000? I do not think so.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are saying in your letter to the Provost,
    23  you are saying this figure of 200,000 plus is going to
    24  have a shattering impact. That is the very point you are
    25  making, is it not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, my Lord, we have not been shown the order of the day

    .           P-96

      1  No. 47 which in everything that it contains, part of which
      2  is the death roll, is the document, and the nonchalance of
      3  the document to which I am referring saying this is going
      4  to have a shattering impact on people who visit your
      5  exhibition, and I have no reason at this time to doubt the
      6  overall authenticity of the document, although I was
      7  making enquiries to investigate that actual figure because
      8  I obviously wanted to make very much more of the figure
      9  when the time comes. But before I went ahead, I wanted
    10  to know who had signed the document could I speak to him,
    11  for example. This is 1964 and there was every chance that
    12  the man who signed the document, Colonel Groesse, was
    13  still alive. In fact, I eventually tracked down his
    14  widow.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, Mr Irving. Could we now turn —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: And if I can also refer to that memorandum you were
    17  dealing with on page 27. In paragraph 3 I gave reasons
    18  why the figure did not seem outlandish. I looked at the
    19  death rolls in Hiroshima and the other major air-raid
    20  disasters of World War II, so there was less reason than
    21  might now seem apparent, to question the final
    22  authenticity of the figure. But you did not read out that
    23  paragraph.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am reading it now.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: It is probably also appropriate here to mention that the
    26  figure of 200,000 by no means orphaned very many people

    .           P-97

      1  referred to that death roll for Dresden, including members
      2  of Hitler’s private staff, including Hermann Goring’s
      3  personal Liaison Officer Budenschatz who visited Dresden
      4  and came back and spoke of that figure.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It was a jolly good propaganda figure, was it not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: They used it for propaganda, yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course they did, and it was totally false, was it not?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is easy to say in retrospect that that document is
      9  fake. But I am looking at this in 1964. The document has
    10  been given to me by Dresden’s Deputy Chief Medical
    11  Officer. The document itself is authentic as we now know,
    12  but this figure has been inserted for propaganda reasons.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I am not really clear about is when you
    14  first saw this document, whether your reaction was that
    15  the figure does look amazing high; I really am rather
    16  suspicious about it?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: My reaction on seeing a figure as high as that was to say,
    18  if true, this is sensational. Clearly one has to carry
    19  out proper enquiries which I then began with the archives
    20  and trying to track down the people who signed the
    21  document and through whose hands it passed in 1945. In
    22  the meantime, I began making cautious use of it on the
    23  assumption it was genuine, for example showing it to the
    24  Provost of Coventry, mentioning it to newspaper editors,
    25  contacting my publishers, saying we may have to put this
    26  in as an appendix and so on. One does not know how long

    .           P-98

      1  it is going to take to make the enquiries. The German
      2  archives might have responded a week later and said yes,
      3  Colonel Grosser is now living in Cologne at such and such
      4  an address.
      5  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well now, it was not exactly moderate or reserved and in
      6  accordance with the need to make careful enquiries to
      7  place these figures before the public in Coventry, and no
      8  doubt for other parts of this country and abroad, so that
      9  they shall have a shattering impact, was it, Mr Irving?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I did not hear the adjective. It was not what?
    11  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: It was not in accordance with what one might call the need
    12  to make careful enquiries, and to take stock of this
    13  figure, to place it with shattering impact before the
    14  public in Coventry the rest of this country and perhaps
    15  other parts of Europe?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I think it was a proper usage of that telegram for the
    17  purposes of the charitable fund raising of the Coventry
    18  Cathedral, yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Tell a lie if it raises money, is that it?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think I said that. It would have been a lie
    21  if — if I had known that the figure was untrue then it
    22  would have been a lie.
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You had no idea whether it was untrue or not, back in 1963
    24  you told your publisher Mr Kimber that you thought it was
    25  probably a piece of Nazi propaganda, did you not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I did not have it in 1963.

    .           P-99

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Now I want to turn a year on to early 1965.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Do you wish to dwell on that statement? Do you want to
      3  find the actual reference?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think that is right.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  It is right.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is?
      7  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we look at the actual reference.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 39.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  No, it is page 2 of the table.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Page 2 of?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: April 1963, it is in the Kimber edition of the Destruction
    13  of Dresden. What is written here is: “In the 1963 Kimber
    14  edition”, second box, my Lord, “edition of Destruction of
    15  Dresden” —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I halt you there and point out that at this time I did
    17  not have this document. So we cannot possibly be
    18  referring to this document.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let me read on, will you, Mr Irving?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I know the reasons why you want to read this out, because
    21  you want to confuse the court and confuse members in the
    22  public gallery.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I do not at all.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is a bit confusing to me. Can we
    25  understand the sequence?
    26  MR RAMPTON:  This is before he has been supplied with a copy of

    .           P-100

      1  a copy, as a matter of fact, was it not, Mr Irving? It
      2  was not an original copy?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: It was the fourth or fifth carbon copy, yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But it was typed out by Frau Grosse?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: If we are going to look at a letter as prejudicial as this
      6  I think we should see the entire letter and not just the
      7  sentences that Miss Rogers has picked out. Your Lordship
      8  will remember that at this time, I said in my opening
      9  speech at this time Mr Kimber was knee deep in the
    10  Auschwitz trial, the Dr Dering trial, and he was in a very
    11  sensitive and raw state.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us see what was published in your William Kimber book
    13  first of all, Mr Irving.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 3, page 1, is that right?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. I take it you take responsibility for what
    16  appears in your books, do you? Or are you going to tell
    17  me this was put in by some sub-editor?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: You probably know what I am going to say then, do you
    19  not?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you let me in on this?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I am just going to read out what you wrote.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: What I wrote or what was published?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, come on, let us have a nice gentle read of it
    24  together: “Now if a trifle belatedly in the weeks after
    25  the American and British destruction of Dresden, Dr
    26  Goebbels was also discovering the use to which bombing

    .           P-101

      1  propaganda …”
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know where are. What are we looking at?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  L1, tab 3, page 1.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  In the middle of the page under, “They shall reap
      6  the whirlwind” – “Now if a trifle belatedly in the weeks
      7  after the American and British destruction of Dresden,
      8  Dr Goebbels was also discovering the use to which bombing
      9  propaganda could be put. At the beginning of fourth week
    10  in March he set in motion a cleverly designed campaign of
    11  whispers calculated to galvanize the German people into a
    12  last horrified stand against their invaders. For this
    13  purpose he appears deliberately to have started a rumour
    14  about the death roll in Dresden wildly exceeding any
    15  figure within the realms of possibility. On 23rd March a
    16  Top Secret order of the day, Tagesbefehl, was leaked to
    17  certain Berlin officials would could be relied on not to
    18  keep their tongues still.” And it read: “In order to
    19  counter the wild rumours circulating at present, this
    20  short extract from the final report of the Dresden Police
    21  President on the Allied raids on Dresden of 13th to 15th
    22  February 1945 is reproduced: ‘Up to the evening of 20th
    23  March 1945 altogether 202,040 bodies, primarily women and
    24  children, were recovered. It is expected that the final
    25  death roll will exceed 250,000. Of the dead only some 30
    26  per cent could be identified. As the removal of the

    .           P-102

      1  corpses could not be undertaken quickly enough, 68,650 of
      2  the bodies were incinerated. As the rumours far exceed
      3  reality, these figures can be used publicly.”
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: That is what I wrote in 1962. Yes, I wrote that.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to finish it: “It was characteristic of the
      6  highly advanced national and socialist propaganda experts
      7  that they did not try to spread this figure through public
      8  press announcements, but by means of this apparently
      9  indignant denial of an exaggerated rumour. All
    10  responsible authorities placed the Dresden death roll
    11  considerably below this figure. Neither the Dresden
    12  Police President nor his report on the air raids survived
    13  the end of the war, the President dying by his own hand
    14  and the order never having been referred to outside this
    15  spurious order of the day.”
    16  Now that was the position in 1963, Mr Irving?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: 1962, yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 1962. You received a copy of a copy, not even a
    19  photographic copy, but a typewritten copy of a
    20  pre-existing document in Dresden in November 1964.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. So this was not —-
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: By which time —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: But this passage is not based on the document of course.
    24  It is based on —-
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: By which time you had on a number of occasions, quite
    26  properly, asked yourself whether the document was

    .           P-103

      1  authentic and, more particularly, which is what matters,
      2  whether the figures were reliable. You had yourself
      3  raised the possibility in your introduction to your
      4  memorandum of November 1964 that there might Nazi
      5  propaganda, had you not? What was it, I ask you, that had
      6  happened to eliminate that proper doubt about the
      7  reliability of the figures by the time you wrote to the
      8  provost of Coventry at the beginning of December 1964?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Right. Taking it in sequence, this passage which is in
    10  the book which I wrote in 1962 and was published on April
    11  1st 1963, was based, to the best of my recollection, on
    12  the version of that document given in the book by Max
    13  Seydewitz, the Mayor of Dresden, who was, as I mentioned
    14  earlier, he was a leading Communist party official. So
    15  I accepted what he said in that book about the probable
    16  origins and motivation of the circulation of that document
    17  by the Nazis at the end of World War II.
    18  In November 1964, as we see from Professor
    19  Evans’ report, he has found among my papers a memorandum
    20  I wrote on my visit to Dresden where I obtained a copy, a
    21  carbon copy, a fourth or fifth carbon copy of the actual
    22  document, coming from a provenance where you would expect
    23  such a document to emerge, namely the Chief Medical
    24  Officer of Dresden from whom Dr Walter Hahn, the
    25  photographer Walter Hahn, had obtained it. This clearly
    26  gave me food for thought that this document which had been

    .           P-104

      1  mentioned dismissively by the Communist Mayor of Dresden
      2  apparently did exist and it is in the hands of the Deputy
      3  Chief Medical Officer of Dresden who considered it to be
      4  genuine. Does this sufficiently answer your question?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I want to know how between your receipt of that
      6  document you are writing to on various occasions, though
      7  of course one could not be certain that the figures were
      8  right —-
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — thought the document was probably authentic, but you
    11  still thought that the figures might be unreliable.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You said as much in the memorandum you wrote about this
    14  document?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: How it was that that doubt about the reliability of the
    17  figures had evaporated apparently by the time you wrote to
    18  Provost of Coventry on 6th November 1964?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not actually in that letter to the Provost of
    20  Coventry said there is no doubt that the figure is
    21  correct. I said take the document with its shattering
    22  figures and use it to raise money for the cathedral.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Your answer is that the document appeared to
    24  you to be authentic because of its provenance?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Precisely, my Lord, and I was carrying out the proper
    26  enquiries at that time to try narrow, to focus in on the

    .           P-105

      1  specific authenticity of its contents.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  But the answer to my original question is nothing
      3  had happened to bring any greater certainty about the
      4  reliability of the figures, had it?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: No. The figure was as dubious as ever, but I had an
      6  improved perception of the authenticity of the document
      7  itself, and we now know that everything else about the
      8  document was accurate, the contents, because it was
      9  based —-
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Did it not cross your mind that it was a bit
    11  suspicious that the figure of 200,040 in the Tagesbefehl
    12  was identical with the leaked phoney figure, leaked
    13  propaganda phoney figure?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: You mean plus or minus a 0?
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No. I do not know mean that. I may have misunderstood
    16  the figures?
    17  MR RAMPTON:  No, your Lordship does not misunderstand. If you
    18  go back to the Kimber book, there was a propaganda
    19  document which mentions precisely the same figures.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, this is the same document. This is the Max
    21  Seydewitz obviously also had a copy of the document.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But it might be said that an historian ought
    23  or his ears ought to prick up when he sees, well, it is
    24  the very same figure which Goebbels was putting into
    25  circulation for propaganda purposes?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think your Lordship has understood me, with

    .           P-106

      1  respect. The Max Seydewitz had the same document as
      2  I obtained. The Mayor of Dresden had the same document.
      3  He printed it in his own history of the raids. That is
      4  where I first found it in 1962 and I used it. Two years
      5  later somebody gives me the document. It is the same
      6  document.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow that.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: But it is now not coming from a communist party official.
      9  It is now coming from somebody who during the war was the
    10  Chief Medical Officer of Dresden, and for better or worse
    11  he himself considered it to be accurate. So obviously
    12  I have to take that into account. It is also not greater
    13  than the largest figure which had previously been said for
    14  the Dresden air raids. It only becomes suspect two years
    15  later with emergence from the archives then finally of the
    16  Police Chief’s report which gives very similar figures but
    17  of one magnitude smaller.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I am going to go to 1965 in a moment, but
    19  perhaps I could preface that with this. My Lord, this is
    20  page 40 of tab 2. You had explained to the Provost of
    21  Coventry that one of the reasons why you had no doubt as
    22  to the authenticity of the document, I am not talking
    23  about the figures —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is the bit that is underlined. “I am myself in no
    26  doubt as to the authenticity of the document, in view of

    .           P-107

      1  having obtained it indirectly from the Dresden Deputy
      2  Chief Medical Officer responsible for disposing of the
      3  victims who still lives in Dresden.” That gentleman was a
      4  Dr Funfack, was he not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He was never Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden, was
      7  he?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: If I wrote here that he was then certainly that is what
      9  I was informed at the time.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He never had anything whatever to do with estimating the
    11  numbers of the dead, did he?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, if I wrote here any differently, certainly I did not
    13  know any differently.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You knew, however, on 19th January 1965?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I knew what?
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That he was neither Deputy Chief Medical Officer nor had
    17  any responsibility for estimating the numbers of dead?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: You are referring to the letter that he wrote me
    19  subsequently on the following page?
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, 19th January 1965.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have pinned your hopes on Dr Funfack, have you not?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Pinned my hopes on him for what?
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He was one of the routes to authentication, is that right,
    25  yes, authentication of this document in your mind, was he
    26  not, this Deputy Chief Medical Officer?

    .           P-108

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Without you having read the document since he wrote it 35
      2  years ago, I can tell you straightaway what the problem
      3  with this is.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suspect that is not quite so simple as it
      5  sounds. Shall we do that at 2 o’clock?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
      7  (Luncheon Adjournment)

    Part IV: David Irving’s Cross-Examination by Mr. Rampton, continued, Afternoon Session (109.8-186.26)

    Section 109.7-124.20

      8  (2.00 p.m.)
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, we are in January 1965. My Lord, this
    10  is page 5 of the table and it is page 520 of Professor
    11  Evans’ report. The person that you believe to be the
    12  Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden at the relevant
    13  time, 1945, and whom you thought was likely to have
    14  corroborative information about the number of deaths and
    15  casualties, was a Dr Funfack, was it not?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did he write to you on 19th January 1965?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: He did, yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You will find the original German of that letter at page
    20  41 at tab 2 of this file.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: A translation of, at any rate, part of that letter is set
    23  out on page 520 of Professor Evans’ report. May I read it
    24  in English? If you have a quarrel with the English,
    25  please tell me or would you like to read the German
    26  original first to yourself?

    .           P-109

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: This is paragraph 3, is it, of —-
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, it is actually paragraph 4 at the top of page 520.
      3  Professor Evans says: “On 19th January 1965 Irving
      4  received a letter from Funfack”.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And, as I say, no good asking me —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just puzzled by where it says, “… after six weeks
      8  of frantic marketing”. I do not quite understand the
      9  significance.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Never mind that. You can ask him about that.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is gratuitous.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  Let us try to keep to the dry facts, shall we,
    13  Mr Irving?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I would like you just to glance at the German first. It
    16  is no good asking me to do it.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: I have read it during the lunch break.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You did, good. Now I would like to read the English
    19  translation, if may. Funfack is said by Professor Evans
    20  to have told you this: “‘Why should I now, after 20
    21  years, be put on the spotlight with the mention of my name
    22  in the West German papers and be named as a witness to the
    23  number of dead is a complete mystery to me'”. How did his
    24  name get in the West German papers, Mr Irving?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Presumably, the German edition of the book had been
    26  published by Bertlesman.

    .           P-110

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The German edition of what?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: “The Destruction of Dresden”.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Your book?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In which you name Dr Funfack as a source for these
      6  figures, is that right?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: If you say so, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “‘Exactly like everyone else'”, goes on Dr Funfack,
      9  “‘affected, I have only ever heard the numbers third-hand
    10  from city commandants with whom I was friends, from the
    11  civilian air raid protection, etc. But the numbers always
    12  differed greatly, I myself was only once present at a
    13  cremation on the Altmarkt, but otherwise completely
    14  uninvolved. Likewise, I was never Dresden’s Chief Medical
    15  Officer or even Deputy Chief Medical Officer, rather I was
    16  always working, or worked, I always worked as a specialist
    17  urologist in a hospital. How one comes to such
    18  suppositions is incomprehensible to me. I did not have
    19  the slightest to do with rendering any such services. The
    20  photos of the cremations on the Altmarkt as well as the
    21  “Order of the Day 47” were also given to me by
    22  acquaintances. Therefore, I can give no firm
    23  [verbindliche] Information about the figure of the dead
    24  but only repeat what was reported to me’.”
    25  Mr Irving, from that date you knew, did you not,
    26  that Dr Funfack was not your man?

    .           P-111

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I comment first on the person of Dr Funfack?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, answer the question first and then go
      3  back to that.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the answer is, no, I did not accept that. My Lord,
      5  I gave you a little glossy brochure, a brown brochure, and
      6  if we were to open up the middle picture, it opens — the
      7  middle, that is the picture section of my book, “The
      8  Destruction of Dresden”, and you will see a rather
      9  horrible scene of the burning — of the public cremation
    10  of the air raid victims; and Dr Funfack is one of the
    11  uniformed characters in the background of that picture.
    12  He had been identified to me on that and other photographs
    13  standing on top of one of the heaps of 1,000 bodies
    14  waiting to cremated.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he says he attended one cremation at
    16  the Altmarkt?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is correct. He was wearing Nazi uniform, a Nazi
    18  Party uniform. He is living in East Germany. They are
    19  all wearing uniform in that picture. He is living in East
    20  Germany a quiet life as a retired doctor in 1965, and this
    21  letter and the subsequent letter which he wrote me, which
    22  I am not sure if Mr Rampton is relying upon —-
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: — makes it quite plain his agony at having been
    25  mentioned in the West German press. In the subsequent
    26  letter which I will draw your attention to —-

    .           P-112

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will tell you its date. It is 19th March, I think,
      2  1965.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: 19th March, which is page 51, is it? Yes, page 51 of the
      4  bundle. He refers to his friendship with the City
      5  Commandant, General Mehnert, “who was a close friend of
      6  mine” and he anxiously then goes on to say, “He was, God
      7  knows, no Hitler fan, and for this reason he was
      8  particularly sympathetic in my — sympathetically in my
      9  memory”, and he continues either in this letter or in the
    10  next letter which he wrote, which I will now find, very
    11  significantly to say that the information that he had been
    12  mentioned in the West German press was brought to him by
    13  the officers of the Ideological Department of the
    14  Socialist Unity Party in East Germany who gave him a very
    15  rough time.
    16  Now, I think it does not take very much
    17  perception or imagination to perceive the reasons why he
    18  now denies that he was a senior medical officer in
    19  Dresden. I will put it no more strongly than that.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is it, is it, Mr Irving?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you had no positive basis for continuing to assert that
    23  Dr Funfack, not only was Deputy Chief Medical Officer of
    24  Dresden at the time, but would know the figures?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I had had a lot of correspondence with people living
    26  behind the Iron Curtain, and I am very familiar with this

    .           P-113

      1  kind of letter. All three letters that he wrote to me are
      2  riddled with the kind of sentences that one put in letters
      3  that one knows are going to be read by the Gestapo or by
      4  the Communist letter censorship authorities, repeating
      5  that his close friends were dedicated anti-Nazis, and so
      6  on. The information that I had that he was Deputy Chief
      7  Medical Officer of Dresden came from a reasonable and
      8  reliable source.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which was?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. But, obviously, I would not have stated it
    11  off the top of my head. But I would also draw your
    12  attention to the passage which Professor Evans has left
    13  out immediately following the part which he quotes, and
    14  I will translate it for you, after the words, “I can only
    15  repeat what was reported to me”, and he then says what was
    16  reported to him which, for some reason, your expert has
    17  left out: “The City Commandant” —-
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, you are going just a little bit fast.
    19  I am trying to keep up with the highlighting.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I am continuing the quotation from January 19th 1965, my
    21  Lord. The letter of January 16th — January 19th 1965,
    22  pages 41 and 42.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  It is on page 42, my Lord, I think.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: On page 42.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The sentence begins half way along the line at the first
    26  quarter of the page —-

    .           P-114

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: [German – document not provided] I am relying on that
      2  sentence which says: “The City Commandant, General
      3  Mehnert”, who was a friend of Funfack, as he stated
      4  earlier in the letter, “spoke to me on about February 22nd
      5  1945 of 140,000 dead, and Professor Fetscher” —
      6  F-E-T-S-C-H-E-R — “of the Civil Defence Organization
      7  spoke of 180,000 dead”. And I should emphasise the fact
      8  that Professor Fetscher, the well-known Communist, a
      9  doctor, the father of very well-known West German
    10  politician now, Iring Fetscher — I-R-I-N-G — who was
    11  shot by the SS at the end of war, so it can be no
    12  suggestion that he was a Nazi propagandist, and that
    13  passage has been left out of the passage quoted by
    14  Professor Evans.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is there. It is on page 533 of Evans. It is a case
    16  for humble pie, perhaps.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I take that back but, of course, he has not quoted
    18  it in the apposite part, the appropriate part.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just let me see why he divides it up.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am sure he had his reasons, my Lord.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  It is quite an interesting passage, is it not?
    22  Have you got 533?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. He goes on to say that the International Red Cross
    24  sent people to investigate Dresden and, as will you notice
    25  on the rest of the bundle, I then went to very great
    26  lengths contacting the International Red Cross, locating

    .           P-115

      1  the person concerned, and so on.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, have no fear. I am coming to the Red Cross,
      3  Mr Irving. It is a little bit further down the line the
      4  next month. I still am puzzled for an answer to my
      5  original question. What basis did you have for continuing
      6  to assert that Dr Funfack had been Deputy Chief Medical
      7  Officer of Dresden and would have known the figures?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Firstly, I had been informed he was the Deputy Chief
      9  Medical officer of Dresden. Secondly, this letter of
    10  denial is couched in precisely the kind of letters that
    11  you got from these Communist countries where people were
    12  terrified because they knew the problems that were going
    13  to open up for them. He had been visited by, as he says,
    14  officers of the Ideological Department of the Socialist
    15  Unity Party who had come and asked him penetrating
    16  questions about how his name had got into the Western
    17  press and —-
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not quite understand what he had to be
    19  ashamed of.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Nor do I.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If he had been in the SS or something like
    22  that, yes, but he was Deputy Chief Medical Officer. Is
    23  that something that —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, it is difficult for us to appreciate living in a
    25  free democracy the kind of terror that people lived in,
    26  first of all, in Nazi Germany and then in the Communist

    .           P-116

      1  East Germany. There were informants everywhere. People
      2  were being arrested at the drop of a hat, and the
      3  suspicion that somebody had been a senior officer in the
      4  regime or hierarchy of a Nazi German City, wearing
      5  whatever uniform and had not yet been punished for it,
      6  would certainly have persuaded me also to write this kind
      7  of letter and make repeated references in the letters to
      8  “my proper beliefs” and “my anti-Nazi friends”, and all
      9  the rest of it, particularly as he then went on to give me
    10  very useful information which is the reason for writing
    11  the letter, that his friend, the City Kommandant of
    12  Dresden, General Mehnert, had told him the following
    13  figures, and that was what he obviously wanted to tell me
    14  in this very guarded manner.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I quite appreciate, Mr Irving, you may have had,
    16  perhaps, quite sensibly inspired doubts about Dr Funfack’s
    17  denial of knowledge. Did you ever make that clear to any
    18  of your correspondents or your readers?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That he had denied it?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You just suppressed the fact that he denied it and
    23  continued to refer to him in categorical terms as the
    24  Deputy Chief Medical Officer of Dresden at the time?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed. In a letter immediately following, I referred to
    26  him as being a Senior Medical Officer in Dresden, which he

    .           P-117

      1  clearly was, he was head of the urological department of
      2  one of the City’s biggest hospitals, which is precisely
      3  the position that the Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the
      4  City would also have occupied, in my view.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It follows, does it not, that —-
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I draw your attention — I am sorry to interrupt you
      7  — page 42, at the foot of that first letter, it is very
      8  difficult to read, but I have read it during the lunch
      9  hour: “I learned of the naming of my name in the press by
    10  a Mr [somebody] of the Ideological Commission of the
    11  Socialist Unity Party of the City administration in
    12  Dresden; and that is his way of telling me, “This is what
    13  all the above is about. I have been hauled over the coals
    14  by the local Communists because of this”. [German –
    15  document not provided] It is an appalling copy, but that
    16  is what the words say, and that is what he is saying in
    17  this postscript.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The irony is, of course, that he was right?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    20  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I mean, what he said, “It has nothing to do with me”, he
    21  was right; it was not anything to do with him?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, except that he admits that he did have the copy of
    23  the document in a later letter. He said, “I have a copy
    24  of the document. I have the original here. You are
    25  welcome to come and see it, and he also tells me quite
    26  gratuitously that he knew from the City Kommandant, who

    .           P-118

      1  was a close friend of his, which is exactly what you would
      2  expect of somebody who is Chief Medical Officer, that the
      3  figure was 170,000 or 180,000, and that the Professor
      4  Fetscher, who was the head of the Civil Defence, also
      5  stated such figures as early as 22nd February. So that is
      6  very much in the same order of magnitude as what the
      7  document said.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  Did you write to the Red Cross at the beginning of
      9  the next month, Mr Irving?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: In view of the fact that Funfack said that there had been
    11  a Swiss Red Cross visit to Dresden, yes, I did.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, it was at the end of January?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: A very few days later, yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think on 4th February you got a reply, did you not? My
    15  Lord, this is the bottom of page 5 of the table.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am afraid there is no copy of this. The reason for that
    18  is a simple one, Mr Irving. Your copies of these letters
    19  — it is not a criticism — are on microfilm, are they
    20  not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. All these negative ones, presumably, come off my
    22  microfilm.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know where they came from. When my researchers,
    24  our researchers, looked at them, they were able to see
    25  what they said. However, it was not possible to produce
    26  satisfactory photocopies of the copies made from the

    .           P-119

      1  microfilm. Do you understand?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does that sound technically likely to be right?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: It sounds highly likely, yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you turn to page 534 of Evans, we see what the Red
      6  Cross said in their letter to you of 4th February 1965.
      7  “It is correct to say” — this is in paragraph 3, my Lord
      8  — “that on of our delegates, Mr Walter Kleiner, was in
      9  the Dresden area during the period you mention, for the
    10  purpose of carrying out his duties of visiting camps. We
    11  have in fact in our possession the reports he made at the
    12  time on prisoner-of-war camps. We have, however, no
    13  information concerning the victims of the Dresden air
    14  raids.”
    15  Then so that we can telescope it, I think on
    16  17th of the same month they wrote to you and said: “There
    17  were no prisoner-of-war camps in Dresden itself.
    18  Consequently, Mr Kleiner’s reports did not even allude to
    19  the air raids on the town.”
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That was a dead end, was it not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, except that they gave me the name, the address of
    23  Mr Kleiner, and I then wrote a letter to Mr Kleiner which
    24  was also in this file which came back that he no longer
    25  lived there.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But the Red Cross provide no confirmation one way or the

    .           P-120

      1  other of the figures which were being floated around at
      2  this time?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: How is it then, if you turn the page to page 8, that in
      5  the 1966 Corgi edition of your book — it is in the middle
      6  of page 8 —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — I have asked Miss Rogers to try to find the page in
      9  tab 1 of the file?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: What tab are we now on? I am now lost.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sorry. I am at page 8 of the table at the moment.
    12  I am just searching for the reference in the Corgi
    13  edition. Thank you very much. My Lord, it is page 9 of
    14  tab 1.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you say tab 1, do you mean tab 3?
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I am sorry. I will find it in my own copy.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Perhaps you can help me — what are we actually looking at
    18  now?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought we were looking for the Red Cross–
    20  here we are, yes. In the middle.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I have found it.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: In the middle of what?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, tab L1, tab 3, page 9.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  Page 9, and this is page 225 of your 1966 Corgi
    25  edition, and in the middle of the paragraph which
    26  begins “shortly after”, you write this: “On 22nd February

    .           P-121

      1  1945, nine days after the attacks during the tour of
      2  allied prisoner-of-war camps in the Dresden area,
      3  Mr Walter Kleiner, the Swiss leader of an International
      4  Red Cross delegation, was in the presence of witnesses
      5  informed by the Dresden City Commandant, General Karl
      6  Mehnert, that the current death roll was 140,000.” Where
      7  can that come from, Mr Irving? It did not come from
      8  Mr Kleiner, did it?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: No, Mr Kleiner was dead at the time.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And it did not come from the Red Cross either, did it?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Not at that time, but, I mean, without going back to my
    12  files and looking for this, I certainly would not have
    13  invented that passage. There are two possible sources.
    14  Either the Red Cross published a report which the person
    15  who made the response to me was not familiar with and
    16  I relied on that. That is one possibility. Or possibly
    17  one of the prisoners in the prison camp who kept diaries
    18  (and I had some of their diaries) was a witness of it.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am sure you will produce them if you still have
    20  them.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Right.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But you cannot tell —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: OK, no, I can see what this is.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, tell us then.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: This is derived entirely from the Funfack letter, quite
    26  clearly.

    .           P-122

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did Funfack say anything about what Mehnert had told
      2  Kleiner? Funfack reported to you what Mehnert, his chum,
      3  had said to him, did he not?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Let us go back and see the letter then.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Or have I misunderstood that?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you just go a little slower — where is
      7  the Red Cross letter?
      8  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry. The first one did not reproduce, but
      9  the second one we do have, and I will give your Lordship.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I could not find — I was scrolling back and
    11  I cannot find the reference.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  It is page 43 of tab 1. That one did reproduce.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 2?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  2. Tab 1 is Hungary. I am so sorry. Tab 2. It
    15  is dated 17th February 1965 and the first paragraph says:
    16  “There were no POW camps in Dresden itself.
    17  Consequently, Mr Kleiner’s reports did not even allude to
    18  the air raids on the town. Moreover, the … (reading to
    19  the words) … is only to hand its delegates reports to
    20  the detaining power of the prisoners power of origin”,
    21  whatever that means.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right, so it did not come from there.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  It did not come from them.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So the question is where it did come from.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  Well, Mr Irving says Funfack. If one looks back
    26  at page 42 —-

    .           P-123

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I suggest Funfack. Can I interrupt my own train of
      2  thought at that point and say the two following things?
      3  We have in this file approximately 100 pages of paper, do
      4  we not, which is a selection of, I suppose I had four
      5  microfilms of paper, 8,000 pages of paper were before you
      6  when you did your discovery, inspection of my discovery.
      7  So you selected 100 pages from 8,000 pages of paper,
      8  right? There is a clue to what the source is if you go
      9  back to page 42A under tab 2. If you read the second
    10  paragraph?
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I have not got that.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It is the letter which I wrote to the International Red
    13  Cross on January 27th, 1965: “On about 22nd February, a
    14  representative of the International Red Cross visited
    15  Dresden to ascertain, among other things, the fate of the
    16  prisoners-of-war in the City. The American Government
    17  kindly quoted to me details from the report your officer
    18  wrote.” Now, that report, of course, is not in the
    19  discovery as is before the court.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Carry on en.

    Section 124.21-138.26

    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Has your Lordship the passage? “I have just today learned
    22  from a leading Medical Officer in Dresden at the time that
    23  during visit of your officer, which he recalls as having
    24  been from 22nd to 26th February, all the casualty figures
    25  for Dresden were made available to your Officer, the Red
    26  Cross Officer”.

    .           P-124

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that a reference to Dr Funfack?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: That is to Dr Funfack, yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where is the communication from Dr Funfack which he says
      4  that he got the figures from the Red Cross or the Red
      5  Cross gave figures to Kleiner — I am sorry.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: The figures — Funfack told me, is this correct?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Funfack told you that Mehnert had told him. That is stage
      8  I?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: That Mehnert and Fetscher had told him these two figures?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Right, so those would be the figures that would have been
    12  given on that date to the International Red Cross visitor,
    13  Mr Kleiner.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But I want to know who told you that during the visit of
    15  Kleiner all the casualty figures for Dresden were made
    16  available to Kleiner.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: The American Government report.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. “I have today from a leading Medical Officer in
    19  Dresden at the time that during a visit of your Officer
    20  all the casualty figures for Dresden were made available
    21  to your Officer”.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That must be information from Funfack?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct, but I am referring to this letter dated
    24  January 27th which states originally, “The American
    25  Government has kindly quoted me details from the report
    26  your Officer wrote and you have not produced that”.

    .           P-125

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But that is nothing to do with it. That is before the
      2  semicolon. I do appreciate your difficulty, Mr Irving,
      3  because you are being asked to produce the source for
      4  something out of a —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: 35 years ago.
      6  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — very, very large quantity of documents.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: With respect, I see little difficulty. This is quite
      8  clearly sufficient material to identify the circles from
      9  which the information came which I wrote that paragraph
    10  on, namely there is an American Government report citing a
    11  report by the International Red Cross Officer, Mr Kleiner;
    12  that Mr Kleiner has visited Dresden and toured camps in
    13  and around the City; during that tour he has been told
    14  figures by Mr Funfack, as Mr Funfack recalls; Mr Funfack
    15  tells us in that letter what the figures were that he knew
    16  from the City Commandant and from the Civil Defence Chief,
    17  Fetscher.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Where does Dr Funfack say that he gave Mr Kleiner
    19  the figures — because that is what this letter says.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: We have three Funfack letters to rely on. Which is the
    21  Funfack letter that refers to the International Red
    22  Cross? If you know that, that would be of use.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Funfack’s letter to the Red Cross or
    24  referring to the Red Cross?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Referring to the visit from the Red Cross.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  It is probably this one on 19th January.

    .           P-126

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page?
      2  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know; it is in German.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What?
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Sorry, it is in German.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but it has a page number, 41.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, sorry, my Lord, yes. It starts on 41 and
      7  finishes at —-
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is hopeless. I mean, not only are these
      9  almost illegible, but they are in German and why should
    10  one have to plough through them?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I have read it actually during the lunch hour and
    12  there is the reference to the International Red Cross
    13  visit.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know, but I am complaining on my own
    15  behalf, you see, rather than yours.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  I complain on my behalf as well.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, why does somebody not do something
    18  about it?
    19  MR RAMPTON:  There are two reasons for that, (a) because I do
    20  not believe it is necessary because there is not any
    21  connection in Funfack’s letter between the Red Cross and
    22  what Mehnert’s version of the figures was, according to
    23  Funfack. Once again, Mr Irving has made a bridge where
    24  none exists. You have made a bridge a between Funfach and
    25  the Red Cross.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he is having difficulty (as I am) in

    .           P-127

      1  even reading this document, let alone seeing what it
      2  actually means.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  The other reason, my Lord — I will be quite
      4  honest about it — unless it is strictly necessary, we do
      5  not translate things if they are already in an expert’s
      6  report.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: But you see one example of where your expert has left out
      8  a very relevant fact, namely that in the very next
      9  sentence —-
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which is what?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: — my source was telling me about 180,000 dead as
    12  reported by the City Commandant on February 22nd and
    13  170,000 dead as reported by Iring Fetscher, the Chief of
    14  the Civil Defence Organisation, and because that goes very
    15  closely to the 202,000 contained in the Grosse report,
    16  your expert left it out.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Very good point, Mr Irving. Take it up with Professor
    18  Evans. My Lord, on page 533 of Evans you will find the
    19  relevant passage from Funfack’s letter translated.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know it is there, but what we are looking
    21  for is to see whether there is anything about the Red
    22  Cross in this letter.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, we have it, my Lord. It is on page 42, and I am sorry
    24  to disappoint Mr Rampton.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  No, it does not disappoint me. You are wrong,
    26  Mr Irving.

    .           P-128

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: The City Commandant —-
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What are you looking at? Come on, let us
      3  get —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: “The City Commandant, General Mehnert, spoke on or about
      5  22nd February 1945 of 140,000 dead, Professor Fetscher of
      6  the Civil Defence Organisation of 180,000″ —-
      7  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, but that has got nothing to do with —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: — “but I have never seen written records of that.
      9  I attach great importance to the fact, to the facts in
    10  order to pay justice to the truth. Best of all, the
    11  delegate of the International Red Cross should know the
    12  facts who visited Dresden on about 22nd to 26th February
    13  under the leadership of a Swiss gentleman and to whom all
    14  the figures were placed at the disposal of.”
    15  MR RAMPTON:  So you infer from that, do you?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Remember, we are writing a book on a
    17  very —-
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is fine.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: — very little known document in history. We have a 50
    20  year rule on the records of the British in force at that
    21  time. Dresden is behind the Iron Curtain. I am doing my
    22  little best. I think I have got very close to it with
    23  this one document where I am dealing with the man who was
    24  the Deputy Chief Medical Officer and who gives me figures
    25  given to him by his best friend, the City Commandant of
    26  the Chief of the Civil Defence, and he says, “We passed

    .           P-129

      1  them on to the International Red Cross delegate”. I then
      2  contacted the International Red Cross who told me the name
      3  of the gentleman. The American Government had the report
      4  of this delegate.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So you have converted that letter and what you were told
      6  by the Americans into this proposition, if I may call it
      7  that —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: At set out in that paragraph of the book, yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — Mr Irving, that the Red Cross were told or Mr Kleiner,
    10  the Swiss leader of the Red Cross delegation, was told by
    11  General Mehnert that the current death toll was 140,000?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, because that is the figures that Funfack is referring
    13  to.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we must have a translation of the
    15  whole of that page. I mean, that is a very good
    16  illustration of why it is unsatisfactory to work off
    17  illegible German text.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  I will ask for it to be done. Every time it is
    19  done it costs money because it is better if it is done by
    20  an independent translator. I am resistant to doing it
    21  unless it is absolutely necessary. If your Lordship
    22  thinks it is necessary in this case, we will have that
    23  Funfack letter translated.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I can see Mr Irving’s point. I mean,
    25  you may say he is adding two and two together and making
    26  five.

    .           P-130

      1  MR RAMPTON:  I do, yes, at least.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And it is a point that would not have been
      3  apparent if Mr Irving had not spotted it.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Fortunately I took the lunch hour to read the whole
      5  letters.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Well, the whole thing is translated in different
      7  places, I agree —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: But may I enquire at this stage whether the report of my
      9  conversation with Grosse’s widow, the Police Chief’s
    10  widow, is in this file? I cannot see it.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I have no idea.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Right. That also appears to be a relevant document.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, you have to make your own case. If there are
    14  documents which you think we have not included in the
    15  bundle which are going to undermine what any of my experts
    16  say in his report, then you must produce them.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I should explain that the person who wrote this
    18  Tagesbefehl No. 47, Colonel Grosse, I tracked down his
    19  widow and interviewed her at length.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I knew that, but I had forgotten the
    21  significance of that.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, she confirmed that, yes, she remembered her husband
    23  talking to her about that kind of figure.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 202,000?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  Now you also corresponded in February 1965,

    .           P-131

      1  Mr Irving, with somebody called Theo Miller, did you not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Theo Muller.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I have him as “Miller”. Unfortunately, once again
      4  the copies — M-I-L-L-E-R — my Lord, this is page 538 of
      5  Professor Evans’ report —
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  — and page 6 of the table. This is written in
      8  English, apparently. One can probably see from reading
      9  what it says. My Lord, there is quite a lot of Miller and
    10  I do wish to draw attention to all of it. 538 to 540.
    11  Might I ask that your Lordship and Mr Irving —-
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I would be grateful for the opportunity.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  — read it to yourselves. Now, you have read
    14  those passages?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: From Mr Miller’s letters. Were they all in English?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: I have no recollection at all of this man, but it appears
    18  to be a letter written in English by this German.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There were two.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Do we know where he was living? Was it West Germany
    21  or East Germany?
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have no idea. One of the 7th February and one of the
    23  25th.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: This is one problem. We are seeing only an extract like
    25  this rather than the whole letter.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we will assume he is in East

    .           P-132

      1  Germany. He is probably still in Dresden, is he not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: That is my suspicion.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  He has told you that he was a member of the
      4  Dresden clearing staff.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I just wanted to develop what I was saying there.
      6  Presumably the same kind of constraints operated on him as
      7  operated on Funfach when he wrote letters.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  His name had not gone public.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: No but he is aware that any letter he writes from East
    10  Germany to England is going to be opened and read.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  Taking all that into account Mr Irving, that
    12  account from a man who, if he is telling the truth, was on
    13  the spot and could be expected to know the truth figures,
    14  if correct, totally exploded the 200 to 250,000 figure,
    15  did it not? This is in February 1965.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do we find any reference to Mr Miller’s account of the
    18  matter?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Anyone can play this game, Mr Rampton.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, that is not an answer.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just explaining.
    22  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes or no?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: The answer is no. I do not think so anyway, but there are
    24  very many witnesses who wrote to me who did not finally
    25  get mentioned in the resulting book.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  No. You have mentioned what may be a third or

    .           P-133

      1  fourth hand hearsay account numerous occasions, apparently
      2  derived from Dr Funfach but which Dr Funfach denies.
      3  Great faith you place in that third, fourth hand denied
      4  account of Dr Funfach. Do you not think that the account
      5  of Mr Miller —-
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: What is the third or fourth?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who claims to have been there, deserves a place by way of
      8  balance at the very least?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: What is the third or fourth hand account?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Answer the question and go back to that.
    11  I think the answer is obvious.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not. I will go back to that in a minute. Do
    13  I think this deserves a place? The answer is no.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Why?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Because we have better quality evidence from somebody
    16  better placed to know.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Who is that?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: General Mehnert.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He is dead.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I quote you the letter of 19th March 1965, page 51?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am really not going to stop you at all, but
    22  I suspect Mr Rampton would you like to just maybe answer
    23  one or two more questions about Miller first.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: I was just stating in principle that anyone can play that
    25  game, that is where your Lordship stopped me earlier,
    26  picking documents that back up your own case and ignoring

    .           P-134

      1  the rest, which is precisely what I am accused of.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  No, no, Mr Irving. You mistake me completely.
      3  I am not trying to prove a case about the number of deaths
      4  at Dresden one way or another. This is a mistake you
      5  habitually make. You make the same mistake in relation to
      6  Auschwitz and elsewhere. No, Mr Irving. I am wondering
      7  why it is that an honest, upright, careful, meticulous,
      8  open minded historian does not mention two alternative
      9  sources, the one of which claims to be a direct witness of
    10  what happened.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you saying that nowhere in my Dresden book do I state
    12  that there are authorities which hold that lower figures
    13  are more accurate? Is that what are you are suggesting?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I am not.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: And that this person is not included among those
    16  authorities?
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am very puzzled why an open minded historian desiring to
    18  give a balanced account of what the figures might be would
    19  not include this man who, on the face of it, appears to be
    20  a very powerful witness for the opposition.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed. I am sure that Evans will have seized all the
    22  particular letters that run in that vein and said, here
    23  are all these ones and let us ignore all the rest, the
    24  same as he has ignored the figures that are presented in
    25  Funfach’s letters.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think what Mr Rampton is saying is that

    .           P-135

      1  this is a man, part of whose job was to try and record the
      2  numbers of deaths at the time. Does that not make him
      3  rather a specially valuable witness?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Purportedly he was.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  Did you follow him up?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I just finish what I am saying? When you write a book
      7  like this, you get letters from all sorts of people who
      8  claim to have been on the spot. If they do not provide
      9  some kind of instant justification, for example the man
    10  who took these ghastly photographs of the, so what,
    11  burnings on the Altmarkt, he produced to me his actual
    12  pass signed by the Gauleiter giving him permission to go
    13  through the police cordons. If someone comes to me with
    14  this kind of evidence and I am also looking for something
    15  which gives verisimilitude. Do you remember General
    16  Bruhns and the girl in the flame red dress that was still
    17  in his mind’s eye? Looking at that letter, and it is
    18  difficult, having only two paragraphs presented to us, for
    19  me to say what caused me to put this lower down the ladder
    20  of reliability, because we are only just shown two
    21  paragraphs from it. It may have been the fact that it was
    22  typed on a very cheap typewriter or perhaps it was badly
    23  spelt and illiterate, and the person was not in the right
    24  position where he should be. But there may have been
    25  something and I cannot tell you after 35 years what it was
    26  that told me that this letter assigned less importance to

    .           P-136

      1  than the letter typed by Mr Funfach.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Funfach denied having had any direct knowledge
      3  of it at all. All he told you was that General Mehnert,
      4  who is dead, had mentioned a figure of, what, 180,000.
      5  That is better evidence, is it, than the direct eyewitness
      6  testimony, on face of it, of Mr Miller?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: If you turn to page 52, you will see Mehnert telling to
      8  Funfach, we were both absolutely astounded at the low
      9  figure of 35,000, which is given in the press here.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I repeat it, Mr Irving. Mr Funfach says he was not
    11  there. He reports the words of a dead man.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: He reports the words of a man who was alive at the time he
    13  spoke to him.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You put that in the forefront and reach firm conclusions
    15  on the basis of it. You suppress what you were told by
    16  Mr Miller.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: You say suppress. This implies that there has been a
    18  deliberate act of suppression of something because it does
    19  not agree with what I intend to say.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Indeed. That is precisely my suggestion. You have got it
    21  in one, Mr Irving.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Nowhere in my Dresden book have I stated words to the
    23  effect that there are authorities which hold that lower
    24  figures are more credible, and that this kind of letter is
    25  not covered by that kind of statement.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I did not say that, Mr Irving.

    .           P-137

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I have repeatedly said, both in the Dresden book and
      2  elsewhere, there are upper figures and there are lower
      3  figures and you have to decide yourself what figure is
      4  more plausible. I then said I consider figure X to be
      5  plausible because … and I have then given the reasons
      6  why, which is precisely the way that a scientist should do
      7  it. But for your Professor Evans to come along and say,
      8  oh, look at this letter which he ignored or suppressed,
      9  which is the word you use, is totally unjust.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My information, for what it is worth, I do have a sort of
    11  —- where does this come from? It is in an H1 file.
    12  Mr Miller wrote to you, Theo Miller, from Ingoldstadt,
    13  Donnau which I think is in West Germany, is it not?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Why is the entire letter not before us in this bundle so
    15  that I can form an impression?
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am afraid, Mr Irving, somebody is to blame for that. It
    17  ain’t me and I don’t know the reason.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The reason is that it is not legible. That
    19  is what it says in the table.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  It is jolly difficult to read.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think Mr Irving ought to have a look at it.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I agree.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If there is a point to be made, he ought to
    24  have the chance to make it now.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  That is the second letter. I do not know about
    26  the first letter.

    .           P-138

    Section 139.1-161.6

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Anyone can use this tactic of coming along with isolated
      2  paragraphs and say, why did you not quote this and why did
      3  you not quote that?
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not concealed from you that I think it
      5  is all rather unsatisfactory.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, this is not actually very funny, but that
      7  is the state of the first letter.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, let us see.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The second letter is a bit more easy, so there they are.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How much of the first page did Professor
    11  Evans — he has a good imagination.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  When you read the microfilm, you can read them.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Off the microfilm.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  I will not hand that one up.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Unfortunately, he says, my recollection is very poor.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whereabouts on the page? I think I have page
    17  you are looking at?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It is about line 10 of the first page, my Lord. “My
    19  recollection of names etc. is very poor. Please
    20  understand everybody” —-
    21  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes, names. That is the point, is it not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  It looks as though you did write back to him,
    24  Mr Irving.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: He says he is answering my questions.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, he wrote to you first, I think, on 4th February, 7th,

    .           P-139

      1  that is the one we cannot read. The first line of this
      2  says: “Dear Mr Irving I thank you very much for your kind
      3  letter of February 21st”. Do we have that in the bundle?.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. That is the one I am looking at.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: —- “Which I received today. Your compliments on my
      6  English are undeserved but Cassell’s Dictionary being
      7  rather a help, I think I had better continue writing in
      8  English”. Then I am afraid it gets harder and harder. Is
      9  there anything in that letter which betrays a good reason
    10  not to accept the evidence of Mr Miller, given that he is
    11  not after all writing under the heel of the communists of
    12  East Germany?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: This is the second letter, not the first letter of course.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but answer my question. I cannot read the first
    15  letter. It is blank. Is there anything about that letter
    16  which makes you suspicious of his veracity?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: His veracity?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think he is deliberately lying, no.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. so there is no reason to suspect his good faith?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is there any reason to suspect that he is not telling what
    23  is accurate?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: He is telling me what his recollection is of the events to
    25  the best of his ability, given what he admits is a poor
    26  recollection of details.

    .           P-140

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Names.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, names, etc.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  Names, and the effect of his evidence is twofold.
      4  First, that the amount of dead persons that they had
      5  managed to count by I think the middle of March was
      6  30,000.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I would say may well be the result of cross pollination
      8  from the fact that this was the figure which was always
      9  stated in the western media and in the East German media.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He writes in the middle of March 1945, “Our task was
    11  almost completed. The town was free of corpses. My
    12  records at the clearing staff showed 30,000. If you
    13  assume that the amount of dead, completely burnt, etc.
    14  would reach 20 per cent, the total figure of victims will
    15  not exceed 36,000″. Then he goes on to explain in quite a
    16  lot of detail in the second letter how it was impossible
    17  that 68,000 corpses could have been burnt in the Altmarkt,
    18  does he not?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you referring to the second letter of February 25th?
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, February 25th, PS, which is set out on page 539 to 40
    21  of Evans’ report.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: There is nothing on this letter of February 25th by nature
    23  of a PS, and there is no reference to those figures.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, then poor Professor Evans must have made it up.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well come on, no. In a post script typed a
    26  day later.

    .           P-141

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not on these pages I have here.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. I suspect that is the explanation.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Again, I can only talk in generic terms and say that
      5  I collected several thousand letters of this nature when
      6  I wrote the book, far more material than I could possibly
      7  use, and I would be looking for specific pointers in an
      8  instinctive way as to which letters were written. I think
      9  it is acceptable, it is common knowledge that some people
    10  have better memories than others. Some people have better
    11  short term or long term memories than others. They can be
    12  the same age, but their memory differs from person to
    13  person. I would have been looking for people who had
    14  specific information about specific events rather than
    15  more general information.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Irving, for interrupting, but
    17  I cannot understand how you could get more specific
    18  information then the information from Mr Miller, whose job
    19  it was to compile records, that his records at the
    20  clearing staff showed 30,000 corpses.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the only specific information contained in it.
    22  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: What more can you want than that?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: If I was to sit down and type an index card on that
    24  letter, that is all it would contain. I would say, it
    25  says he was a member Aufrollungskommando based on such and
    26  such a place, recalls figure 30,000. Against that I would

    .           P-142

      1  set the fact, well, this is the figure which all the West
      2  German Press says, this is the figure that the East German
      3  Press says, it does not really advance the cause of our
      4  knowledge. I would clearly recognize that as being an
      5  echo of what this man is reading in the press, my Lord, at
      6  that time.
      7  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So he is a liar, then?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: No, a liar is somebody who wilfully —-
      9  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But he says, “My records at the clearing staff showed
    10  30,000 corpses”. That is a lie if what he really means
    11  is, “I read in the press the other day that it is
    12  30,000″.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I agree. I think he is fantasizing slightly.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is fantasizing?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. We remember that Ada Bimko also remembered seeing 4
    16  million in the Auschwitz record that she read.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, we know, with the wonderful benefit of
    18  20.20 hindsight, that, so far from Mr Miller being a
    19  fantasist, he actually got the figure more or less spot
    20  on, did he not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: His figure compares very closely with the figure contained
    22  in the police chief’s report.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And in the genuine TV 47, and in Reichert’s book, and
    24  everywhere else you want to look, the true figure is
    25  somewhere between 25 and 35,000 at the maximum, is it not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Except for the fact that, if you look at that little

    .           P-143

      1  passage sideways on the letter, page 2, he says, “by the
      2  way, the figures of dead were reported every day to a
      3  central air defence staff in Berlin”. Now, I am quite
      4  familiar with those records and there is no such figures
      5  reported from Dresden over that period. It is that kind
      6  of thing that would have lit a little alarm light in my
      7  brain. That is exactly the kind of place that I was
      8  looking for data like this, and had there been daily
      9  reports coming from this Aufrollungskommando in Dresden,
    10  I would have seen them.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now I wonder —-
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I admit 20.20 hindsight is very nice, but we are not
    13  blessed with it.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I only said that in the poor man’s defence. For all
    15  I know, he is sitting in Ingoldstadt on the Donnau,
    16  reading books of this case. You accuse him of being a
    17  fantasist. As it turns out, his information was almost
    18  precisely accurate.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Well I said this in response to his Lordship’s suggestion
    20  that I was imputing that the man was a liar, and I thought
    21  that that was going too far, the fact that he said that
    22  they kept records, and the fact that he said, “we had
    23  30,000″, I would not—-
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He was right.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I would not have said that this was evidence of lying.
    26  I would suggest that this was evidence of the fact that

    .           P-144

      1  yes, he was telling the truth about keeping records and
      2  that he then tacked the figure of 30,000 on because he
      3  knew that was the newspaper figure.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sure he will be delighted to read that in the
      5  newspaper. Mr Irving, I am going to leap ahead, if
      6  I may.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Perhaps one day I shall bring my entire Dresden records to
      8  court and then his Lordship can see how many thousands of
      9  pages these are selected from. This is a very easy
    10  exercise to perform, if you want just want to suggest that
    11  someone is suppressing documents.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My Lord, I am now turning to page 9. I am going to the
    13  early summer May 1966. Have you got that, Mr Irving? It
    14  helps to follow the chronology?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: We are back on your tabulation.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I do not know whether Boberacht’s discovery of
    17  situation report 1404 was communicated to you. Was it?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: As I mentioned earlier today, I received both those
    19  documents in the same post on my return from abroad.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In May 1966?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, both the East German one and the West German one.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. Which is which of those? Boberacht is East
    23  Germany, is he?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Boberacht was the head of the West German archives.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: His figures were 18,375 current death roll up to 22,345,
    26  expected death roll 25, and 35,000 missing, yes?

    .           P-145

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Whereas the one from East Germany, we do not have the
      3  figures here but I know what they are and I am sure you
      4  do. So that up to early 10th March 1945 there were 8,735
      5  dead, 2,212 badly wounded, 13,718 slightly wounded, and
      6  350,000 homeless and long term re-quartered, did it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Upon receipt of those documents you must have given this
      9  problem some very considerable thought, did you not?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I discussed them with my London publisher.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You wrote a letter to The Times?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: My London publisher advised me to keep quiet about them.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Never mind.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: This is quite important.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh no, Mr Irving —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He said, you will do yourself discredit if you let people
    17  know that there are figures that dispute yours.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you form a judgment. You do not do what
    19  your publisher says?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: If you are dependent upon your publisher for your entire
    21  livelihood, sometimes you do, my Lord.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  So much more so, Mr Irving, if I may be a little
    23  cynical for a moment, if you should go on trumpeting the
    24  200 to 250,000 figure, and these two documents should be
    25  brought forth by somebody else. Much better to come clean
    26  to protect yourself.

    .           P-146

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: This was one argument I used to the publisher, of course.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Quite right, too. You wrote to The Times. I am not going
      3  to read it out. On 7th July, it is at page 56 of this tab
      4  2, you said that, in effect, you thought that the original
      5  TB47 figures were falsified and that you had no interest
      6  in promoting — this is the last paragraph — “or
      7  perpetuating false legends and I feel it is important that
      8  in this respect the records should be set straight”.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not refer to TB47 in this document, of course.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but that is what you mean, is it not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: But you implied that I did.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you do eat humble pie. One does not
    13  want to skim over this letter so quickly. In the second
    14  paragraph you do say you are to blame for all this, you
    15  got it wrong.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. Quite right.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You say at the end of the third paragraph — Mr Irving,
    19  sometimes it is not good to be too much of a trainspotter
    20  — “Two years ago I procured from a private East German
    21  source what purported to be extracts from the police
    22  president’s report” — that is the forged TB47, is it not?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is correct.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — “quoting the final death roll as a quarter of a
    25  million. The other statistics it contained were accurate
    26  but it is now obvious that the death roll statistic was

    .           P-147

      1  falsified, probably in 1945″.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is a reference to TB47.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And a recognition that it was a forgery?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct. No, that the figure was falsified.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I agree.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: The document was genuine but the figure was falsified.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sure. That is what you do if you are a reasonably good
    10  liar or forger. You get as close to the truth as possible
    11  but falsify the crucial fact. Now, in August 1966 you
    12  were —-
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I just draw your Lordship’s attention to the fact that
    14  what you are looking at on that page 56 is not the actual
    15  page from The Times, which actually looked like this —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: That I went to the trouble of having 500 copies of that
    18  letter printed at my own expense.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: I see.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: That is what you are looking at there. I wonder how many
    21  historians would actually do something like that and sent
    22  it to historians around the world to correct the error
    23  that I thought I had made.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  That is what is troubling me, Mr Irving.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sure.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, for quite a different reason. In August 1966 an

    .           P-148

      1  Italian edition of your book was about to be published,
      2  was it not?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you please turn to page 65 of this tab? My Lord, I am
      5  now on page 10 of the tab. You wrote to your Italian
      6  publisher, a Miss Calabi on 28th August 1966: “Dear
      7  Miss Calabi, thank you for your letter. I have now
      8  written out the few alterations that are ideally necessary
      9  for my book, The Destruction of Dresden, in the light of
    10  the new documents I have obtained from Germany.” Those
    11  are the two documents we have just been discussing, are
    12  they not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. “They are not too sweeping because, despite
    15  what I wrote in The Times, I do not think too much
    16  importance can be attached to the figures given in the new
    17  German documents. On the other hand, they cannot be
    18  ignored. I have marked a copy of the Corgy edition of the
    19  book and I am sending it to you separately. I do not
    20  think it is necessary to print my letter to The Times as
    21  an appendix, as this would call unnecessary attention to
    22  the new documents. If you have any urgent comments, I am
    23  at the following address in Spain, yours sincerely”. What
    24  does that letter mean, Mr Irving? You tell me. I know
    25  what I think it means, but you tell me.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I have no idea. This letter was written 34 years ago.

    .           P-149

      1  Would you run your own hypothesis past me?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My hypothesis is a suggestion which you will need to deal
      3  with. You had written to The Times. You had withdrawn,
      4  and you had accepted, on the basis of those two documents,
      5  that the original figures were pie in the sky. But now
      6  you do not want to draw attention to them. Why not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I will tell you what puzzles me, Mr Rampton, and that is
      8  why you have not included in this bundle the actual
      9  changes that I made, so his Lordship can judge whether
    10  they were apposite or not. I have them here and they are
    11  in the little bundle I gave your Lordship this morning.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we ought to look at them.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  It is quite right. We should look at page 63, Mr
    14  Irving, which is in fact Montadori, the publisher, writing
    15  to you. She says on 15th July 1966: “Dear Mr Irving,
    16  I have seen your letter to the editor of The Times on the
    17  figures of the bombing of Dresden in 1945 and I wonder
    18  whether you would like us to publish it as an appendix to
    19  a possible reprint of a populicia Dresda”.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Your response was, I had better keep off that, I do not
    22  want too much attention to be drawn to these two new
    23  documents. Now why?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Why do we not just look and see the changes I sent to
    25  them?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think, if you want to and I see why you

    .           P-150

      1  want to, I think we should. The difficulty I have is that
      2  I do not quite know where they are.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Pages 6 and 7 of the little bundle, the one with the
      4  photograph in the front.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Has Mr Rampton got this?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Everyone has it.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  I hope so.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is page 6, right at the back, my Lord, the last two
      9  pages. Unfortunately, my secretary has stapled in inverse
    10  order. That kind of thing happens. Alterations in the
    11  text of destruction of Dresden resulting from — I draw
    12  your attention, my Lord, to the very last item on page 2
    13  of the last but one. Delete this appendix, the order of
    14  the day, No. 47, so that was out.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Wait a minute.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I am beginning to understand why this document is not
    17  before the court until I brought it this morning.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Are you referring to the English edition page numbers?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: This was the Corgi edition, but the same document went to
    20  all the publishers. It is dated August 28th, as can you
    21  see. It is the same date as my reply to the Italians.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got the Corgi edition?
    23  MR RAMPTON:  S of it. I have not got the whole.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This exercise is not going to achieve much
    25  unless we know what is actually in the Corgi edition.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Except, my Lord, if you look at the long paragraph I am

    .           P-151

      1  saying to insert on the second half of the first page —-
      2  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Page 226?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. That is my treatment of the new evidence.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. I am reading it.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That was my take on the new documents as of that day.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. It is the paragraph underneath the big paragraph
      7  which is going, you are suggesting, to go on to page 226,
      8  which starts “These figures must be regarded with extreme
      9  caution”.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. That is still my position to this very day, in fact.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh, is it? I see.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I am curious that this was not included in your bundle.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do not worry, it was not deliberate. Miss Rogers could
    14  not find it.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: It was not suppressed in any way, was it?
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, of course not. It is in the bundle anyway, Mr Irving,
    17  if you bothered to read the papers. This is a bundle
    18  prepared by us. Suppress, my foot!
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is in now.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My Lord, can we put it in this bundle?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was thinking exactly the same thing.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It should go behind the letter to Miss Calabi, should it
    23  not, so it should be 65A and B.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is this going?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: It should be behind the next one actually, behind 65A. It
    26  should become 65B perhaps.

    .           P-152

      1  MR RAMPTON:  65B and C. You have written in similar terms to
      2  Miss Amy Howlett, I see, on 28th August?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I wrote to all the publishers who at that time had the
      4  book under licence.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right, Mr Irving, let us get to grips with it. What are
      6  your reasons for being suspicious of the new figures which
      7  suggest a maximum of, say, 30,000?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it was not a maximum of 30,000. He mentions of
      9  course all the numbers of those missing, and so on.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, 35,000 missing. A whole lot of people fled the city,
    11  did they not, after the bombing?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. The reasons for my being suspicious, even of those
    13  figures, are, firstly, the statements by Mehnert and
    14  Fetsher as quoted by Funfach. Secondly, comparison of the
    15  disaster that had befallen Dresden with the disasters that
    16  had befallen similar cities under similar conditions.
    17  Thirdly, the statements by large numbers of Dresden
    18  civilians that they considered those figures to be far too
    19  low.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is hard documentary evidence dating from the period
    21  by the Nazis themselves.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Fourthly, that the man who drew up the report dated March
    23  10th 1945, the police chief of Dresden, was ipso facto
    24  also in charge of civil defence precautions for Dresden,
    25  the air raid shelters and so on, and so, if there had been
    26  a huge casualty resulting from inadequate provision of air

    .           P-153

      1  raid precautions, he was largely to blame himself, so he
      2  would have every justification to keep his estimates as
      3  low as possible.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is it not odd? He has therefore doctored both reports,
      5  has he, or had them doctored?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not saying he has doctored them, but the police chief
      7  of a German city was also ex-officio the head of the air
      8  defence precautions for that city. He was in charge of
      9  ensuring the underground air raid shelters, the static
    10  water tanks and so on. In the case of the biggest
    11  disaster in German history like this, he must have been
    12  deeply conscious of the fingers being pointed at him for
    13  having provided no air raid shelters and inadequate air
    14  raid precautions for the city.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So, Mr Irving, what is your rational, calm, best estimate
    16  of the likely death toll at Dresden now?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: In the latest edition of my book, Apocalypse in Dresden,
    18  which was published two years ago, I think I estimated
    19  that the best margins for the figures which I would accept
    20  would be between 60,000 and 100,000, which brings down the
    21  original figure that I suggested substantially, which
    22  still puts me in a bracket above that contained by the
    23  police chief of Dresden. But I have explained in that
    24  book the reasons for these calculations. I have not just
    25  stated this as being gospel. They are not carved in
    26  letters of stone.

    .           P-154

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, this all started with a document
      2  coming to light and I am trying to find where that is,
      3  because I do not think we ever looked at it, did we?
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Which was that, my Lord?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This particular line of cross-examination all
      6  started with a particular document coming to light, the
      7  report.
      8  MR RAMPTON:  Two documents, my Lord.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am trying to find it in the table and I do
    10  not think we have looked at it, have we?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: It is almost illegible, my Lord. It is printed as an
    12  appendix to the Corgi edition of the book. It is page 1
    13  under tab 2, that is, the major police report, and on page
    14  8 of tab 2 there is the minor one which was found in the
    15  West German archives.
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Thank you very much. That is very helpful. We have not
    17  actually even read what Evans says it says.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  I have given the figures. They are here. We will
    19  look at Evans if your Lordship pleases, 546
    20  and 547. There is no dispute about what they say, I do
    21  not think, and there is no dispute about their
    22  genuineness, as far as I know.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but I need to know, do I not.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  I did read the figures out, but your Lordship
    25  should see them. On page 545 your Lordship should start,
    26  which is the so-called final report of 15th March 1945,

    .           P-155

      1  and it had all the right signatures on it.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Broadly speaking, they are all saying the
      3  same thing.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: The statistics are exactly the same.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What puzzles me is why you do not accept —
      7  I suppose the reason why you do not accept these three
      8  more or less unanimous reports are the reasons you have
      9  just listed from 1 to 4. Is that right?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: The underlying reason is that the report specifically
    11  states that this is the status as of March 10th, at which
    12  sometime the city was still completely ruined. The
    13  cellars had not been cleaned out. The whole of the centre
    14  of the city, I am sure your Lordship has seen the
    15  photographs of what Dresden looked like afterwards. They
    16  did not have the manpower to dig out the bodies, whatever
    17  figure he gave was an estimate. He said we have done this
    18  so far. We have counted these bodies. The latest book
    19  published by the East German authority goes into enormous
    20  detail. They have now dug out of the archives the
    21  cemetary registers of how many bodies were delivered to
    22  the local cemeteries and how many rings were taken off the
    23  bodies and how many shoes were taken off the bodies and
    24  shipped off to be recycled elsewhere.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Frankly, truck loads of shoes were taken off the bodies.

    .           P-156

      1  MR RAMPTON:  Do you know how many bodies were discovered under
      2  the ruins of Dresden between 8th May, that is the day of
      3  the German surrender, in 1945 until 1966?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, I have read what the latest book says on that and it
      5  is very illuminating. They have done a very thorough
      6  piece of research on that.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 1800. Do you know that between 1990 and 1994 when I have
      8  no doubt Dresden was being extensively rebuilt after
      9  reunification, they found no bodies at all?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. If you see the heaps of ashes, do you think they
    11  managed to keep account of the heaps of ashes? You are
    12  not looking, Mr Rampton, but you will see the photograph
    13  here, the heaps of ashes in the background.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Put your horrid photograph away, please, Mr Irving.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Two photographs.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell me how many people.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: You see heaps of ashes and you tell me how they can count
    18  them.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell me how many people you think were incinerated in the
    20  Altmarkt after the 13th to 15th February 1945?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Large numbers.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Tell me how many. 35,000?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Large numbers were incinerated.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Maximum of 9,000, is it not?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Give us your best estimate, Mr Irving.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know, my Lord, not off the top of my head without

    .           P-157

      1  looking at the figures.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Where did the 35,000 missing people go? They have
      3  not been found in the ruins. You cannot incinerate that
      4  number in the Altmarkt. Where did they go, Mr Irving?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Have you ever read — I will not put this as a question.
      6  I have read the report of the police chief of Hamburg on
      7  the after effects of the British fire storm air raid on
      8  Hamburg, which described how, in the cellars and bunkers,
      9  they just found heaps of ashes, because the bodies had
    10  just self incinerated inside these buildings in the heat.
    11  Tell me how you can count them.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The fact is, Mr Irving, that the scientific, the cold
    13  objective, clear headed assessment of those who
    14  investigated this matter in depth cannot get you beyond
    15  the figure of 30 to 35,000, at the very most, for those
    16  that died. Is that not right?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: No, it is not.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, answer my question, please.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: If you have been to Dresden, I have not been to Auschwitz
    20  but I have been to Dresden and I have been to the cemetary
    21  where they buried the bodies, and there is a big monument
    22  above the mass grave which says in a German poem: How
    23  many lie here? Who knows the number? Nobody knows.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I repeat my question. I am not going to get an answer,
    25  I know, where did the 35,000 missing go? They are not
    26  found under the ruins, they cannot be burnt in the

    .           P-158

      1  Altmarkt. Where they have gone?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: I gave one answer and that is to say a large number were
      3  cremated live in their homes. I do not think you have any
      4  perception of what a fire storm does to a city. There is
      5  not very much left in the centre after it has passed.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Have you been in one, Mr Irving?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I spent 3 years of my life investigating this one. I am
      8  deeply ashamed of what we did.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, it is my fault. I am not quite
    10  understanding your question about where did the missing
    11  35,000 go.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, one of the documents said, I think it was
    13  the final report, no, it was the other document, situation
    14  report No. 1404, page 547 of Professor Evans’ report, my
    15  Lord, paragraph 3, I will read it:
    16  “Simultaneously on 13th May 1966 the West
    17  German archivist, Dr Boberacht, drew Irving’s attention to
    18  the discovery of a document in the Federal Archive in West
    19  Germany that confirmed the authenticity of the final
    20  report (that is to say the real one). Amongst the
    21  situation reports on air raids on Reichs territory dated
    22  between 23rd February and 10th April 1945 situation report
    23  No. 1404 of the Berlin chief of police”, that is the
    24  Berlin chief of police Mr Irving, “dated 22nd March 1945
    25  had appeared, a document dated the very same day as TB47.
    26  In it the same data were recorded as in the final report

    .           P-159

      1  including the then current death roll of18,375″.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell me what page you are on, please.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  547.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  “A predicted death roll of 25,000, that is total,
      5  and a figure of 35,000 missing”. Now, Mr Irving, if,
      6  which is insane, but if you propose that all those 35,000
      7  were incinerated in the fire storm as opposed to some
      8  proportion at least having fled the city and not come
      9  back, particularly if they happen to be refugees, if you
    10  add those together, what is the total that you get?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. Tell me.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 60,000, is it not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: If you look at page 9 of the first major report dated
    14  March 15th, where it says, “personal damage, damage to
    15  persons”, it says: “By 10th March in the morning we
    16  determined 18,375 killed, 2,212″, these are actual bodies
    17  they have counted.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No 2,212 is badly wounded, not bodies.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I am saying badly injured, yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So some of those might die.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: 350,000 homeless.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: 350,000 homeless.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, Mr Irving.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Right.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Not incinerated in a fire storm.

    .           P-160

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: If they count 18,375 killed, that means they have had the
      2  actual bodies stretched out in front of them and they have
      3  done a head count. If you see the damage to the city of
      4  Dresden, the way it was, you will know there were not
      5  bodies in the centre of the city. There were just heaps
      6  of ash.

    Section 161.7-186.26

      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  My impression was — I probably got this
      8  wrong — that they actually were rather thorough in the
      9  Altmarkt and that they did try and identify all the bodies
    10  that were there. Is that wrong?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, if you look at the second page, you will see them
    12  doing some of the identification. The bodies have been
    13  laid out, there are the horses, they have been taken off
    14  the horse drawn carts, but these are not bodies that have
    15  been cremated in cellars. These are bodies that have been
    16  taken into the Altmarkt to be cremated.
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No, but I think you just said, did you not —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: They have done what they could. They have taken the
    19  rings, they have looked at the inside of the rings to see
    20  the initials that are engraved inside the wedding rings.
    21  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: When you refer to heaps of ash, I thought you were seeking
    22  to suggest that you did not know who had been incinerated
    23  in the Altmarkt.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Certainly, these ones, the big funeral pyres, they would
    25  have done what they could to identify them and that is
    26  what Funfach is doing in the photograph in the centre of

    .           P-161

      1  the book I showed you, but in the Hamburg air raid it is
      2  very clearly described, in fact in horrible detail about
      3  what people found when they went into the basements and
      4  what they found when they went into the bunkers. In
      5  Hamburg alone 48,000 people were killed. That was in a
      6  city that had been completely prepared for air raids with
      7  air raid shelters and bunkers and anti-aircraft guns, and
      8  the city was aware what air raids were, they had air raid
      9  sirens. This was a city with a million refugees, many of
    10  them camping out in the open streets with no shelters.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, a little bit of arithmetic, if you
    12  do not mind. I added together the prediction, 25,000, in
    13  the situation report 1404, to the 35,000 missing.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Making 60,000.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is already an exaggeration because, if you base your
    18  prediction on a figure of 18,375, some part of those
    19  predicted 25,000 are going to come from the 35,000
    20  missing, are they not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I think these are very round figures indeed. Nobody knew
    22  how many people were in the city that night because of the
    23  refugees that had poured in from Bresslau and all the
    24  eastern provinces fleeing the Russian advance.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you push it as far as you possibly can and assume that
    26  all the missings are going to have to be added to the

    .           P-162

      1  18,375 as dead people, quite ignoring the probability that
      2  the whole lot of them actually just left and were never
      3  found again, at any rate by 22nd March, you only get a
      4  figure of 53,000, and that is a pie in the sky, over
      5  optimistic in your terms, exaggerated estimate even then,
      6  is it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I did all these calculations at the time back in the
      8  1960s, backwards and forwards from every possible
      9  available source.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well then, why did you write in Hitler’s War in 1991, page
    11  739, the night’s death toll in Dresden was estimated at a
    12  quarter of a million?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Because it was. The estimates that came to Hitler on that
    14  day were quarter of a million.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you just go a little slowly at the
    16  moment?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sure that Mr Rampton has anticipated that answer
    18  because I can see a little triumphant smile coming.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I mean really —-
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: It is so obvious that —-
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If I may, I would just like to have a look at
    22  that.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What we have not done so far is seen what
    25  Mr Irving was writing in his books as opposed to writing
    26  to the Provost—-

    .           P-163

      1  MR RAMPTON:  That is what I am coming to now. I have leapt into
      2  the future because it is very interesting to see what
      3  Mr Irving made of this information. I will take it a
      4  little more slowly perhaps.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the end this is what matters, is it not?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  Of course. Oh, of course.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are there any earlier references than
      8  Hitler’s War?
      9  MR RAMPTON:  These came to light in 1977, so I will start after
    10  that, if I may. Your Lordship in tab 3 will see a page,
    11  I think page 18, of the book Goring by Mr Irving, which
    12  was published in 1989.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to have to have an index to these
    14  files, am I not?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I hope so. I hope I get one, too. You must have
    16  an index and it would be very nice to have an index for
    17  each file.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what I am talking about.
    19  MR RAMPTON:  You should, if I may say it, and I am not
    20  criticising anybody, so that everybody can hear —-
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So that it gets done.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  You should have, I think, an index for the whole
    23  set of files, and in each file there should be a separate
    24  index so far as possible.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. The unfortunate thing is that I really
    26  need one when these files are produced, not later.

    .           P-164

      1  MR RAMPTON:  I know. Your Lordship will find in the table, if
      2  your Lordship turns to page 11, that the mistress of the
      3  documents has written in the reference.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I was forgetting that.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  Page 18. This is in 1989, and this by Mr Irving’s
      6  standards, I have to say, is a relatively conservative
      7  estimate.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: What page are you on? Page 18 you say?
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Page 18 of the file, Mr Irving, yes, page 554 of the
    10  book. At the bottom of the big paragraph in the middle of
    11  the page you are writing about Dresden and you write in
    12  the last sentence: “The death toll of that night’s
    13  massacre would rise to over 100,000″.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot find it.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is the last sentence of the big paragraph in the middle
    16  of the page.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Which book are we at?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Goring, page 454 at the top, 18 in a round circle in blue
    19  biro at the bottom right hand corner.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I have no round figures on mine. Is this in tab 3?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you do not have pagination on the bottom
    22  you are going to have—-
    23  MR RAMPTON:  You will find a Goring between two black lines.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Somebody really ought to have paginated that
    25  bundle.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I quite agree.

    .           P-165

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do think, bearing in mind how much time,
      2  energy and money has been spent on preparation for this
      3  case, that that sort of thing really ought to have been
      4  done. It is not fair. He has enough to contend with.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  I agree.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is about ten or eleven pages in to that
      7  tab 3.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I have it, yes.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry about this. The last sentence of the
    10  long paragraph in the middle of the page, Mr Irving.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You are talking about Dresden: “The death toll of that
    13  night’s massacre would rise to over 100,000″.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where did that figure come from, Mr Irving?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: That is my figure.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not really an answer, is it?
    18  MR RAMPTON:  Certainly it came out of your head, but what is it
    19  based on?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: All my books come out of my head.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, sure. What is it based on? You accuse poor
    22  Mr Miller of being a fantasist.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not purporting to write something from my own
    24  experience, which Miller was. If this is my best estimate
    25  on the evidence that I have up to that point when I wrote
    26  this manuscript, which was 1980 something, my best

    .           P-166

      1  estimate of what I knew. This would be about 1984 that
      2  I wrote that.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 1991?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Previously, of course, I had said 135,000, so I am
      5  bringing the figure down by now.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If we turn over two pages in this file — one page will do
      7  actually.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know. This is from Hitler’s War 1991.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And you are writing about, I think, the reaction to
    12  Dresden. I have not read this page 738 but am I right
    13  about that?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The reaction in Berlin?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You remember this book is viewing everything from
    17  inside Hitler’s bunker.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course, I understand that. When you write at the top
    19  of the page, therefore, tell me if this is right, the
    20  night’s death toll in Dresden was estimated at a quarter
    21  of a million, that was the estimate that Hitler was being
    22  given, probably by Goebbels. Is that right?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Not by Goebbels necessarily, but it is quite clear by this
    24  time, when you have been reading 739 pages of this book
    25  —-
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not want to take any false point. That is not an

    .           P-167

      1  estimate you are giving to the reader of your own?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then the 1995 edition — wait a minute, I have leapt ahead
      4  of myself. We will come back to it, Mr Irving, when we
      5  have the document, but I just want to ask the question
      6  whether you remember on 28th November 1991 saying in an
      7  interview with This Week that there were 25,000 killed at
      8  Auschwitz and that “we (that is Allies) killed five times
      9  that number in Dresden in one night”?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I probably would have said four times or five times.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Check it.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. I would have to see what I said.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you did say that, what it means is that you are saying
    14  to the viewers on 28th November 1991 that 125,000 were
    15  killed at Dresden ?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I would need to know exactly the words I used in that
    17  statement.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Rather than leave these things dangling in
    19  the air. Have we not got that somewhere?
    20  MR RAMPTON:  The files have been taken away to be marked up for
    21  another purpose which your Lordship knows, the K files.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have probably got them here, have I not?
    23  MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship probably —-
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would much rather not leave points hanging
    25  in the air or we will forget about them.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  I agree.

    .           P-168

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: If your Lordship knows can I know too?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was going to show you my copy. I am not
      3  going to keep it from you. The whole point was to show it
      4  to you.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  I cannot tell your Lordship where to look, I am
      6  afraid.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you tell me even the letter of the
      8  alphabet?
      9  MR RAMPTON:  The date is 28th November 1991.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the file called?
    11  MR RAMPTON:  K3, says Miss Rogers.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  K3.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: This is a transcript of a Thames Television This Week
    14  film?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  No, it is a transcript of an interview with you
    16  This Week.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Somebody has removed my K3.
    18  MR RAMPTON:  What I am going to do is to read out your exact
    19  words.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I always like to see the context of what things are being
    21  said.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is going to be shown to you.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  I am going to show you the whole page and a half
    24  that I have. I am going to read it out and if you have
    25  read it and say I have missed something or I am being
    26  selective, then please tell us.

    .           P-169

      1  The interviewer, whose name I know not, asked
      2  you: “So what is the point of quibbling about the exact
      3  number of Jews that were killed by Hitler? Irving: Exact
      4  numbers are important. Look at Auschwitz, about 100,000
      5  people died in Auschwitz. Most of them died of epidemics
      6  as we know now from code breaking”, that is to Hinsley
      7  decrypts. “So even if we are generous and say a quarter
      8  of them, 25,000 were killed by hanging or shooting, 25,000
      9  is a crime, that’s true. 25,000 innocent person executed
    10  by one means or another, but we killed that many people,
    11  burning them alive in one night, not in three years in a
    12  city like Faucheim. We killed five times that number in
    13  Dresden in one night, equals 125,000.”
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: We killed I think 17,000 in Faucheim in one night and five
    15  times that is less than 125,000.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but that is not rally the relevant bit,
    17  is it?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: That is precisely why I would like to see the original
    19  quote.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let Mr Irving have a look at and see if and
    21  make any point you want.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not really going to quibble about this, because to my
    23  mind if I said it is 125,000 and Mr Rampton says it is
    24  only 100,000 in my mind, or you said only 100,000 before,
    25  this kind of chiselling around major catastrophes I find
    26  regrettable, repugnant. I will have a quick look at it.

    .           P-170

      1  The reason I want to look at it, my Lord, is because
      2  Professor Evans by suppressing one word in a quotation
      3  from a certain letter has totally reversed another
      4  passage.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are absolutely entitled and right to ask
      6  to look at it.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Here I am going to have to say I want to hear the sound
      9  recording to see if I said five times or not or four
    10  times. If they are going to quibble on that kind of word
    11  I want to what hear if I said four or five.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is not a quibble.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a quibble.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You said yourself, Mr Irving, that the figures are exact.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: That is why I think it is important I should know whether
    16  I said four or five. Is that This Week recorded by the
    17  way?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, I think so.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I will listen to it at home. I have it on tape.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: By all means do.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please do.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, remember the Leuchter press
    23  conference? My Lord, I am sorry, I have jumped a date,
    24  23rd June 1989, page 11 of the table. I have got the
    25  transcript here.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the reference? It is in D2

    .           P-171

      1  somewhere.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  The actual file is D2(i) tab 5, page 10.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. Does Mr Irving have a copy?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  You start at the bottom of page 9. This is the
      6  question and answer session of the Leuchter press
      7  conference. Does your Lordship have it?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes I have.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, have you got it? I am starting with
    10  Irving at the bottom of page 9. “I am suggesting to you
    11  alternative explanations to the gas chambers, because
    12  obviously as the gas chamber now turns out to be phoney,
    13  then we have to try to explain what happened to the
    14  figures”. I think you probably meant the people.
    15  “Now one possible reason is the large number of
    16  Jews that turned up in the state of Palestine which is now
    17  the state of Israel. Jews in Israel did not come from
    18  nowhere. Another part of them when Auschwitz was
    19  liberated was set out on the roads and shipped westwards
    20  where they ended up in cities like Dresden”.
    21  Pause there, Mr Irving. What evidence do you
    22  have that any of the people from Auschwitz went to
    23  Dresden?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: I say cities like Dresden.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us read on in the light of that answer.
    26  “I do not have to tell you what happened in

    .           P-172

      1  Dresden three weeks after Auschwitz was evacuated by the
      2  Germans. One million refugees on the streets of Dresden
      3  at the time when we burnt Dresden to the ground killing
      4  anything between 100,000 and 250,000 of them”?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of whom —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Of the 1 million people on the streets of Dresden.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One million refugees on the streets of Dresden.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: One million people on the streets of Dresden.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “One million refugees on the streets of Dresden at the
    11  time when we burnt Dresden to the ground killing anything
    12  between 100,000 to 200,000 of them.”
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Of them.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The refugees?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Dresedens, the people in Dresden.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I can well understand a degree of —-
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Hyperbole.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sloppy expression in answer to a question. Of course
    19  I understand that. Although you say refugees, I do not
    20  suppose you meant that 250,000 refugees were killed in
    21  Dresden, any more than you meant that 250,000 refugees
    22  from Auschwitz were killed in Dresden?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am giving the upper and lower limits.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In 1989 where does the figure of 250,000 as an upper limit
    25  come from, Mr Irving?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: It comes in the war years from the records that I saw, as

    .           P-173

      1  the upper limit, hence the estimate that was put to Adolf
      2  Hitler on the morning after, but also over the intervening
      3  years I received very large numbers of letters from 1960
      4  onwards when I was writing the Dresden book, from 1960
      5  right up to 1989, that is almost 30 years I received
      6  persistent letters from people who said it cannot possibly
      7  have been as low as X; it must have been as high as Y.
      8  Nearly all of them gave as the upper limit the figure of
      9  250,000. So I am stating here limits in my view; not more
    10  than 250,000, not less than 100,000.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So you attach credence, do you, to letters
    12  like the ones you have just mentioned, giving an upper
    13  limit?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Not only to that, my Lord, I also mentioned the documents
    15  during the war years which also mentioned that kind of
    16  figure. It is an upper limit, however improbable and a
    17  lower limit, however equally improbable, without setting
    18  the figure in between which on this occasion I consider to
    19  be more accurate, given as an answer to a question, a
    20  belligerent question, at a press conference.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I think the latest figures I have from you are
    22  probably in the Goebbels book. I notice, in passing, that
    23  in the republication of Dresden, the focal point edition
    24  of 1995, you say in the introduction: “Between 50 and
    25  100,000″, in the text, “up to 100,000”. In Goebbels you
    26  say, “Between 60 and 100,000 men, women and children”.

    .           P-174

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is having read the latest accounts that had come
      2  from East Germany, which I consider to be very impressive,
      3  which were published, I suppose, within the last three or
      4  four years or five years.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is Dr Professor Herr Reichert an East German?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: My recollection is that the book was sent to me by the
      7  East German Government — by the Dresden City
      8  Authorities. I think it is the last item in your clip, is
      9  it not? The last item I saw anyway was a letter, yes,
    10  just above tab 3, my Lord. 1997, yes, they sent me a copy
    11  of that book. There had been several newspaper accounts
    12  also based on it.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am trying to find the Reichert’s final estimate which
    14  I think is about 25,000.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is that?
    16  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, 511 of Evans. Dresden historian, yes,
    17  you can call him an East German, if you like. I prefer
    18  just to call him a German?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: “Central German”, perhaps.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: From Dresden, a Dresdener?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: 500?
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  511.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  511, paragraph 6.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  “Many historians accept the 35,000 figure”.
    25  Pommerin, Sherry. “For instance, the historian, Earl A
    26  Beck”, who seems to be an American, “said the constant

    .           P-175

      1  increase in estimates of the number killed in the raids
      2  does not comport with the facts. Official reports justify
      3  an estimate of between 25,000 and 35,000 killed. Figures
      4  that rose to 100 or 200,000 killed lost touch with the
      5  reality. In 1994 research by the Dresden historian
      6  Friedrich Reichart was published, using a previously
      7  unused source, which convincingly reduced Bergander’s
      8  figure of 35,000 to 25,000. This figure”, says Professor
      9  Evans, “can be regarded as close to definitive”?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Well…
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, now, Mr Irving, 100,000, 60 to 100,000 those figures
    12  are fantasy, are they not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I think the answer to that is you pays your money, you
    14  takes your choice, and we know who is paying the money to
    15  Mr Evans and we know what choice he has made.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I see. But what about Mr Reichert? Has he been paid by
    17  the international Jewish conspiracy to produce these
    18  figures?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: What an extraordinary statement!
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, that is what you have been asserting all through
    21  this case.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think I have mentioned the phrase even once. Do
    23  you want me to comment on Reichart’s book or are you just
    24  making —-
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are going to have a little trawl through your public
    26  utterances about the Jews tomorrow.

    .           P-176

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Oh, good.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You might enjoy that. Is it right, Mr Irving, that
      3  when —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we also have a bit of a trawl through the public
      5  utterances about the Jewish community about me?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are perfectly entitled to.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  About what?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Call evidence about that, Jewish
      9  organizations’ statements about Mr Irving.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Oh well, he can, yes.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I think Reichter has done a very good job. I have read
    12  the book in part. I have been very impressed by the
    13  solidity of his research, particularly as he had access to
    14  the records to the crematorium administration and the
    15  cemetery administration.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is right, the numbers of burials, certified burials
    17  and so on and so forth, the numbers of bodies found since
    18  and all that kind of thing, the capacity for incineration
    19  in the Altmakt. He is a sensible, level headed chap who
    20  has actually bothered to check the hard cold figures and
    21  the contemporaneous documentation, he is not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you implying that these were documents that I was —-
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: — that I suppressed when I wrote my book in 1962?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am implying that when you write in 1995 and 1996 figures
    26  as high as 100,000 you were just making it up?

    .           P-177

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: When was Reichart’s book published?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 1994.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Was that available to me at the time?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have no idea.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: When you see yourself that it was supplied to me in 1997
      6  with the covering letter.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Look at Bergander’s book. Have you not read that?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 35,000.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I know Bergander very well as a human being and I respect
    11  him as a friend and he is a jolly decent chap, but I do
    12  not put his book in the same category as I put Reichart’s
    13  book having read Reichart’s book.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, a final question about Dresden. Then, my Lord,
    15  I shall run out topics for today. I explain what benefit
    16  we might gain from that when I finish. One final question
    17  on Dresden.
    18  Is it right that when your German publishers put
    19  a out version of Dresden in 1985 they described it as a
    20  novel?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I believe I am right in saying that Schindler’s List when
    22  it is published has always had the title “a novel” written
    23  on the front the jacket.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is the answer to my question yes or no?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, indeed, and they apologised to me for their mistake.
    26  I consider that to be a repugnant kind of suggestion on

    .           P-178

      1  your part.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is entirely consistent with every question I have been
      3  asking you on this topic since we started on it this
      4  morning. Pie in the sky, Mr Irving, your figures. May I
      5  suggest that the reason why you have done it is because
      6  you want to make false equivalence between the numbers of
      7  people killed at Dresden and the numbers of people killed
      8  at Auschwitz?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: If I am permitted to re-examine myself in-chief then
    10  I would say the following, and it may be you would wish to
    11  interrupt me.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. That is a question and so answer it in
    13  whatever way you think fit.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Is that right?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Do I consider my figures to be pie in the sky? No.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it is a bit more than that.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  A little bit more than that.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Would you repeat it?
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I suggested that your figures are fantastic, that they
    20  have no sound basis in real evidence, and I suggested the
    21  reason why, to which you say no, and I suggested that the
    22  reason why you have done it is that you want to make a
    23  false equivalent between the numbers of people who died in
    24  Dresden and the numbers of people who were killed by the
    25  SS in Auschwitz?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I repudiate that suggestion. I can only state in general

    .           P-179

      1  that I did not just write a book about the air raid on
      2  Dresden; I also spent three years of my life researching
      3  all the major air raid attacks, not only on German cities
      4  but on other cities, that I was able to compare the air
      5  raids on German cities like Hamburg, Castle, Fausheuim and
      6  Damschadt, if you look at the death rolls — am I going
      7  too fast?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. I was distracted. I do not mean to be discourteous.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I had the impression you were not listen. I was able to
    10  compare the death rolls in those cities with the death
    11  roll in Dresden and come to an independent conclusion,
    12  independent of what people might write to me in private
    13  letters, that on the balance of probabilities, given the
    14  scale of catastrophe that was inflicted on Dresden, the
    15  number of homes destroyed, the numbers of people rendered
    16  homeless, the numbers of people in the city, the fact that
    17  the city had no air raid precautions whatsoever, that it
    18  had no air raid sirens, it had no defences, it had no
    19  guns, it had no shelters, on the balance of probability
    20  more people probably died in Dresden than are known to
    21  have died in Hamburg in a much smaller air raid when far
    22  fewer bombs are dropped, far fewer homes are destroyed and
    23  far fewer people rendered homeless. That, therefore,
    24  although I respect Reichter’s work on the basis of the
    25  documentation of the numbers of bodies dragged up to the
    26  cemeteries, I concluded that probably more people died in

    .           P-180

      1  Dresden because there were not enough bodies to find.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that concludes my cross-examination on
      3  Dresden.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I have still repeated the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 in
      6  my latest edition of the Dresden book. On my web site
      7  edition I have drawn attention to the fact that the
      8  figures are probably controversial which I think is the
      9  correct way to go about it.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, that being so —-
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, do sit down.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I have no further questions to ask Mr Irving this
    13  afternoon. The remaining topics are, there is a gentleman
    14  called Almeyer who was for a short time an officer at
    15  Auschwitz. I am not interested in, shall I say, the
    16  substance of Herr Almeyer’s evidence, but I shall want to
    17  ask Mr Irving some questions about that. It is only about
    18  two questions. Then there is Moscow.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then there is who?
    20  MR RAMPTON:  Moscow. My proposal for that, actually it is not
    21  mine again, it is Miss Rogers’ clever plan and it is not a
    22  trick, she has produced a sort of schedule of events which
    23  I can spend a day wading through in court by reference to
    24  documents, but which does seem to us to be really rather a
    25  waste of time, since, as I think your Lordship has already
    26  observed, much of this may turn out to be common ground.

    .           P-181

      1  What we propose to do, particularly since it is only 20 to
      2  4, is to give your Lordship and Mr Irving a copy of this,
      3  it is a similar sort of document to the one we have been
      4  using this afternoon in relation to Dresden, and ask
      5  Mr Irving to read it overnight and to mark on it those
      6  areas which are in dispute. Then I can —-
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Mr Irving, are you happy about that?
      8  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not entirely happy about it. I was
      9  not happy about this tabulation that was put in because of
    10  its tendentious nature in parts. They put in quotations
    11  extracts from quotations.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That the sort of thing that is slightly
    13  concerning me. That is not a criticism of Miss Rogers.
    14  MR IRVING:  Some of them are deeply prejudicial they are before
    15  your Lordship. Your Lordship is a human being. If one
    16  reads the entire letter you can see what the entire letter
    17  was about in connection —-
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think what I will say, and I understand
    19  your concern, is read whatever it is that is being
    20  produced.
    21  MR RAMPTON:  I will not give it your Lordship.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not suppose you mind me seeing it, do
    23  you?
    24  MR RAMPTON:  He did say he was a bit worried it might colour
    25  your Lordship’s mind or something to that effect.
    26  MR IRVING:  It is already a selection of documents made from

    .           P-182

      1  their own bundles which are not agreed bundles.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, it will not do you any harm to read it,
      3  if I may suggest.
      4  MR IRVING:  I am not easily harmed, Mr Rampton.
      5  MR RAMPTON:  No, that is perfectly plain.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Read it and then we will see in the light of
      7  your reading of it what we are going to do with it, if
      8  anything.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  I am quite happy for your Lordship to have one,
    10  but if Mr Irving is worried about it —-
    11  MR IRVING:  I prefer if your Lordship waits until I have read
    12  the first —-
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You say that and I think that is not
    14  unreasonable.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  Then beyond that which I am going to do in the
    16  form of broad questions to which I expect to get negative
    17  answers, if necessary, I will put the questions, Mr
    18  Irving’s political associations, and I will leave the
    19  detail to be dealt with by my experts so far as they are
    20  going to be witnesses.
    21  Only perhaps at the end, or perhaps not, some of
    22  Mr Irving’s utterances about, put bluntly, anti-Semitism
    23  and racism, for which there would be marked up files, by
    24  tomorrow morning, but I do not have them yet.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not, sort of, gone through to think of
    26  any other topics that may need to be covered, but I am

    .           P-183

      1  sure you have.
      2  MR RAMPTON:  I am going to have a trawl through the undergrowth
      3  with Miss Rogers tonight to see if there is anything that
      4  we have missed, but we do not think there is. Else. We
      5  think that is all that is left.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Adjutants occurs to me.
      7  MR RAMPTON:  I keep forgetting them because I do not like them,
      8  I find them muddly, but the fact is there may be something
      9  in them that I do need to do. I am hopeful that I will
    10  finish cross-examining Mr Irving by the end of tomorrow,
    11  if not sometime early on Thursday, but certainly this
    12  week.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is very helpful.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Then, my Lord, I tell your Lordship this, next
    15  week on Monday, Professor Browning will be here, and this
    16  is always subject to evidence that Mr Irving wants to
    17  call, because we are, in effect, unless he has finished
    18  his case at the end of this week, interposing. Then
    19  sometime when Professor Browning is finished, Professor
    20  Evans and following him, Dr Longerich.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  So that should cover the next couple of weeks, the
    23  beginning of next week, which means we have done actually
    24  pretty well on the time schedule.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good. I have said this before, Mr Irving,
    26  but if you want a pause between the experts, I would be

    .           P-184

      1  more than happy to agree to that.
      2  MR IRVING:  I may well ask for one day before we take on Evans.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is entirely reasonable.
      4  MR IRVING:  Yes. Between the experts, I think we are ready for
      5  Browning.
      6  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know, but my suspicion is that Professor
      7  Browning will not in the witness box very long.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  As we have a few minutes, I have a bit of a
      9  mound of documents.
    10  MR IRVING:  My Lord, the cream sheet of paper just confirms
    11  what I said to you yesterday morning, just those points
    12  that I made, and I thought you might like to have that in
    13  writing.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
    15  MR IRVING:  The other items belong in the Dresden clip of
    16  Dresden documents they gave you.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right. I think what I will do with these is
    18  put them, whatever it was, L1.
    19  MR IRVING:  Yes. I was going to give your Lordship a bundle of
    20  photographs, but I find these repulsive photographs
    21  probably sit better in the Dresden file where they belong.
    22  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I put that glossy brochure in the waste
    23  basket.
    24  MR IRVING:  I will retrieve it, if I may. I know you do not
    25  think very much of what we did to Dresden, but I do.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  What do you mean?

    .           P-185

      1  MR IRVING:  You said, “So what?”
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. We have disposed of “so what”,
      3  Mr Irving, once and for all.
      4  MR RAMPTON:  Enough “so whats”, Mr Irving.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am putting it in tab 4 of L1 which I know
      6  is your bundle.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  10.30 tomorrow.
      8  < (The witness stood down)
      9  (The court adjourned until the following day)

    .           P-186