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    Day 10 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

    Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 4.1)

    1996 I. No. 113
      2  Royal Courts of Justice
      3  Strand, London
      4  Wednesday, 26th January 2000
      6  Before:
    10  Claimant -and-
    13  Defendants
    14  The Claimant appeared in person
    15  MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
    16  Second Defendants
    17  MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
    18  MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
    19  the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
    21  (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
    & Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
    22  Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
    23  (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company)

    .           P-1

      1  <Day 10. Wednesday, 26th January 2000.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving?
      3  MR IRVING:  My Lord, may it please the court. Two minor
      4  housekeeping matters: first of all, I have postponed my
      5  two witnesses until later because, obviously, we are in
      6  the middle of Professor van Pelt’s cross-examination, and
      7  that is the witnesses Fox and Peter Millar.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I hope that does not cause problems.
      9  MR IRVING:  Not at all, no. I dealt with them last night about
    10  this. So one of the things I gave to you in the bundle
    11  yesterday morning referred to the Millar. It is a section
    12  of the 1992 diary. It will presumably be in your —-
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have it loose and I will keep it loose.
    14  MR IRVING:  Keep it loose or put it in J.
    15  My Lord, the other minor matter concerns once
    16  again the press.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    18  MR IRVING:  From today’s press coverage — particularly I am
    19  referring to the Times — one gets the impression they are
    20  relying more on hand outs than on their personal
    21  experiences in the courtroom.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I saw the report. I did not read it. What
    23  about it are you concerned?
    24  MR IRVING:  Purely, that there were things in the article which
    25  were not in the testimony yesterday, and I am not in any
    26  way pointing a finger at the Defendants on this. It may

    .           P-2

      1  well be there are third parties who are doing this and
      2  providing copies of the Professor’s report or something
      3  like that to the press. This clearly disadvantages me.
      4  I am aware of the fact that your Lordship is
      5  sitting without a jury, so this is of less moment, but if
      6  it in any way gradually affects or put wrong guidelines on
      7  public opinion and skews public opinion in some way, then
      8  this may indirectly be seen to be affecting the outcome of
      9  this decision.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I am afraid that really is a sort of
    11  fact of life that you just have to put up with. Really,
    12  what matters here for my purposes is whether I am going to
    13  be influenced by it and, as I have not read it, I will not
    14  be.
    15  MR IRVING:  Very well, my Lord. Clearly, it would be improper
    16  for any of the parties in this case to start putting hand
    17  outs to the press in the way I appreciate the law is on
    18  contempt which would disadvantage the other party.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If anything that really does disturb you
    20  comes up, mention it, but at the moment I do not think
    21  there is anything that can usefully be done about what
    22  appeared or, indeed, should be done. So I think we might
    23  as well get on.
    24  MR IRVING:  Very well, my Lord. It will probably assist your
    25  Lordship if I now just in one topic paragraph, so to say,
    26  outline what I intend doing —-

    .           P-3

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would find that very helpful.

    Part II: Professor van Pelt Cross-Examined by Irving on Auschwitz(4.2 to 110.2)

    Section 4.2 to 15.16

      2  MR IRVING:  — for the next hour, shall we say? Firstly,
      3  there will be no more traps being sprung. I am sure that
      4  the Professor will appreciate advance notification. There
      5  are no more hidden booby-traps or mines, but I am going to
      6  be dwelling briefly on crematorium No. (ii) still for a
      7  while because I believe the Professor wishes to make
      8  certain comments on what I said yesterday.
      9  I then want to have a look at the quality of the
    10  eyewitness evidence that the Professor was relying upon,
    11  in particular the witnesses Tauber and Bimko and Broad.
    12  Then we will move to Auschwitz, the main camp, and have a
    13  look at the alleged gassing facilities there.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Thank you for that.
    15  MR IRVING:  If I can just recapitulate where we were when we
    16  ended yesterday and invite the Professor to state what
    17  comments he had on that. This was the fact that we had
    18  established, I believe (and I am sure the Professor will
    19  correct me when the time comes if I am wrong) that the
    20  evidence on which he based his contention that crematorium
    21  No. (ii), the mortuary No. 1 in that crematorium, the
    22  underground mortuary, was, in fact, a gas chamber, was
    23  entirely eyewitness evidence, what we would call anecdotal
    24  evidence from certain named eyewitnesses.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think he would, accept but that may
    26  be what you are putting to him.

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      1  MR IRVING:  He may wish to tell the court what other evidence
      2  he is relying upon. I shall certainly invite him to do
      3  so. If I may continue? The evidence then is that the
      4  roof has pancaked downwards, has remained relatively
      5  intact, sufficiently in tact that one can draw certain
      6  conclusions from its present condition, and that in its
      7  present condition it certainly shows no signs of the holes
      8  through which allegedly the murderers poured the cyanide
      9  capsules into the chamber below. They should certainly
    10  have been visible, in my submission.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is the point we were on yesterday
    12  evening.
    13  MR IRVING:  This is where we left it yesterday evening, my
    14  Lord.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, absolutely.
    16  <PROFESSOR VAN PELT, Recalled
    17  <Cross-examined by MR IRVING, continued.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, do you disagree with any part of that
    19  brief summary?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I do.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Right. With which part do you disagree? Shall we take it
    22  stage by stage? My contention that your belief that this
    23  building was a homicidal gas chamber rests solely on the
    24  eyewitness evidence of those named eyewitnesses?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I disagree with that statement, and I can bring in some
    26  other evidence, if you would like to consider it?

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      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was this other evidence contained in any of your reports
      2  or in your published book?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is contained in a report. It is also contained — it
      4  is basically a number of images I would like to introduce
      5  right now.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just be clear? Are we talking about
      7  crematorium (ii) or generally?
      8  MR IRVING:  We are still talking about crematorium No. (ii), my
      9  Lord, the one of which we had these large photographs.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I just wanted to be clear.
    11  MR IRVING:  We are talking specifically about the Leichenkeller
    12  No. 1.
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Or, even more specifically, we are talking about the way
    14  Zyklon-B was introduced in that Leichenkeller by means of
    15  wire mesh columns which above ground were capped with a
    16  kind of introduction device, a chimney like introduction
    17  device.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Rather like a funnel of some kind?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Some kind of little chimney.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was this introduction device made of wire mesh or was it
    21  made of concrete or do you have any evidence?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Tauber describes it as a chimney with a concrete lid, but
    23  I would like at the moment, with your permission, just to
    24  introduce the evidence and maybe we can consider the
    25  evidence.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is the eyewitness Tauber you are referring to?

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    >  1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. My Lord, I would like to go to core file Auschwitz
      2  2, the trial bundle,.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  K2 we are talking about?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. 2, K2, and I would like to go to tab 1 where it is
      5  called “Plans and blueprints”, and I would like to go to
      6  page No. 10 and No. 10A.
      7  MR IRVING:  Handwritten 10?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think it must be a handwritten 10.
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. It is 22 printed and 45 printed, but it is 10 and
    11  10A. That is how the numbers of the sequence in which
    12  these images are in the file.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  These are photographs?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: These are photographs, and what we see here is we have an
    15  image of the back of crematorium (ii) in February 1942.
    16  You see it is winter. The photo is very clear. There is
    17  snow on the ground. We are looking at the foreground is
    18  actually the construction site of the Klaranlage, the
    19  sewage waste, the sewage treatment plant. We look at the
    20  back of the crematorium, and we see there the main
    21  building with the roof and the chimney and then, jutting
    22  out from that building and it is clearer on the next page,
    23  we see the gas chamber, or the morgue No. 1 as a kind of
    24  box, a low box like structure, and on top of that we see
    25  four boxes. It is certainly three of them are very clear
    26  and maybe the fourth one to the left right under the

    .           P-7

      1  window. This would be the third double window from the
      2  left of the building. We see these box like, chimney
      3  like, structures which jut up from this low, this low box
      4  like structure, which is morgue No. 1.
      5  This is a picture of the building as it was on
      6  the construction. Shortly after this photo was taken the
      7  gas chamber itself, or the morgue No. 1 itself, was
      8  covered with dirt, and so that the projection of the
      9  little chimneys above the level of the roof of the morgue
    10  in the final result would probably have been less, but we
    11  do not, of course, know if we look at the finished
    12  chimneys right now or if these were in some way still
    13  capped with another kind of structure.
    14  So this is, I think, a very important piece of
    15  evidence because this is a photo taken by a member of the
    16  SS Bauleitung, Schaffuhrer Kaman. He was the only one
    17  allowed with a camera in the camp and this photo very
    18  clearly shows the structures.
    19  MR IRVING:  Can I interrupt you at this point?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, of course.
    21  MR IRVING:  Right. I am anxious to let the witness have his
    22  say, but you refer to them as “chimneys”; of course, they
    23  are not. They are objects on this photograph. We do not
    24  know what the objects are. Professor, have you,
    25  presumably, in your life visited a building site?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.

    .           P-8

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: And have you seen flat roofs on building sites under
      2  construction?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you seen these roofs when they are being treated with
      5  some kind of substance to water proof them?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: What does the substance come in? Would I be right in
      8  saying it comes in 40 gallons drums or something like
      9  that?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would not be able to comment on that. I mean, if you
    11  want to assert it comes in 40 gallon drums, I will accept
    12  that.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: But it comes in drums, does it not? These drums stand
    14  around the roof while the men brush it up and down on the
    15  roof. This kind of thing happens?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That is quite possible.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: And this photograph was taken in the winter of 1942?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: At this time this particular building was under
    20  construction, was it not? They were stilling
    21  completing —-
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was under construction.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: It was under construction. Of course, if we cut straight
    24  to the bottom line in this, if we are to accept your
    25  hypothesis or theory that these were rather irregularly
    26  spaced openings in the roof, and these were some kind of

    .           P-9

      1  pipe on top of that, as I understand you are putting to
      2  the court, with some kind of cover on top, then we would
      3  expect to find the openings in the roof, would we not, or
      4  some trace of those openings in the roof even today? Here
      5  is the roof now, that is the very roof we are talking
      6  about, is it not? That has pancaked downwards. The
      7  underside of the roof is largely intact. You can see just
      8  where those columns would have been then, these openings
      9  would have been, and there is not the slightest trace of
    10  them, is there?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have said, it is in my report that one cannot observe
    12  these things, but I have also said before that when the
    13  gas chamber was dismantled before the destruction of this
    14  building, two months before the destruction of this
    15  building, it would have been a very likely, I mean, the
    16  obvious solution would have been to actually close these
    17  holes. Now, I have also mentioned yesterday —-
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am going to question you on that in a minute.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I wonder if I should go back to the discussion of
    20  yesterday or address straight the issue of the boxes with
    21  material, the alleged boxes with the material on the roof.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, we will come back to the alleged boxes with material
    23  on the roof, but I must hold up your statement to the
    24  court where you said that just before demolition of the
    25  building, workers were sent in with the instructions to
    26  fill the holes with cement or concrete or something?

    .           P-10

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is an inference on my side because you do not want
      2  these holes in the roof of a space to remain. When you
      3  have taken out the columns, it is an obvious conclusion
      4  that you would close these holes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: I can see his Lordship frowning and I think the whole
      6  court is inwardly frowning about this rather improbable
      7  story, implausible idea.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, just for the record and for the
      9  transcript, I did not frown.
    10  MR IRVING:  I am sorry, my Lord.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us get on with the question.
    12  MR IRVING:  Yes. The implausibility of the story, that before
    13  putting in packs of dynamite beneath the building to blow
    14  everything up so that the Red Army does not find any
    15  criminal traces, they send in workmen with buckets of
    16  cement and trowels and tell them to make good the holes in
    17  the roof. This sounds, I must say, totally implausible to
    18  me, and we know now that it never happened because the
    19  roof is there and there is not the slightest trace of such
    20  patchwork having been done on the concrete?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, it is at the moment impossible to see because of
    22  the state of the roof if there was patchwork or not. The
    23  roof is fragmented. The roof has weathered very, very
    24  badly over 50 years, and the colour of concrete in the
    25  roof is of a motley quality, to say, and there is a lot of
    26  growth has been on the roof. It is impossible to tell one

    .           P-11

      1  way or another.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are talking about the underside of the roof, of course,
      3  and we have any number of photographs of the underside of
      4  that roof where you can actually see the original wood
      5  grain in the formwork on the concrete that survives, and
      6  that shows not the slightest displacement or interference
      7  or tampering with. This is the implausible part of your
      8  story. I appreciate that you are anxious to move on to
      9  other topics because, frankly, this blows holes in the
    10  whole of the gas chamber story. If there are no holes in
    11  that roof, no holes in that roof, there are no holes now
    12  and there were no holes then, and that totally demolishes
    13  the evidence of your so-called eyewitnesses?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I have already yesterday pointed out that the
    15  column which remains and over which the room has been
    16  folded is the second column which was not the column where
    17  the column, the Zyklon-B introduction column was attached
    18  to, there were four of them, attached to column 1, 3, 5
    19  and 7. May I address —-
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wanted to ask you — may I do it now —
    21  about the columns because I understood your evidence
    22  yesterday to be that jutting out, as it were, from the
    23  roof of the alleged gas chamber there were the columns as
    24  well as the metal apertures through which the Zyklon-B,
    25  you say, was poured?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The columns — it is unlikely, my Lord, that the —-

    .           P-12

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Did I misunderstand that?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — columns would be going through the roof completely
      3  because the columns themselves were wider. They had these
      4  three concentric layers, but what would have happened is
      5  that there were a hole through the roof, and then on the
      6  top of it you get a kind if chimney like structure, and as
      7  long as the hole is connected to the innermost, to the
      8  innermost kind of column inside and of the same width so
      9  that this little thing can be brought up and down which
    10  ultimately allowed people to retrieve the earth in which
    11  the Zyklon was absurd during transport. As long as that
    12  hole was the same as the diameter of the inner column,
    13  then whatever you do above the roof is irrelevant.
    14  I mean, you can have a box or you can have just a lid
    15  there.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow. But the question I am really
    17  trying to get at is this. If your evidence is that the
    18  pillars were protruding above the level of the roof —-
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: You said the Zyklon-B introduction pillars?
    20  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, that is what I am asking you. I thought you said
    21  that the pillars, the structural pillars, were
    22  protruding —-
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, the structural pillars did not and do not.
    24  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, that was my misunderstanding of your evidence.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We have a blue print which shows those pillars and we can
    26  look at if you want.

    .           P-13

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Whilst I am asking you questions, I am not sure you have
      2  really responded to the suggestion that was implicitly
      3  being put to you by Mr Irving which is that these objects
      4  that one can see on the roof of the gas chamber, alleged
      5  gas chamber, are, in fact, drums containing some sort of
      6  sealant. You have not actually dealt with that
      7  suggestion.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, and I would like to deal with that, if it is
      9  possible?
    10  MR IRVING:  Are you saying that all four of those objects were
    11  the pipes, as you call them?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, these would be, this would be the chimney. There
    13  would be some structure around the pipe, because if you
    14  just have a pipe coming up, you want to have probably some
    15  kind of insertion mechanism. If you take a tin of
    16  Zyklon-B, that probably there is a little funnel attached
    17  to, and also you want probably not the pipe to run
    18  straight through the earth, you probably want to have some
    19  kind of protection around that pipe.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, can I draw your attention to picture 10A in K2?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I still do not think, Professor van
    22  Pelt, you have really dealt with the suggestion that these
    23  are drums containing sealant. Could that be so?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would like to deal with it.
    25  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Deal with it now.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: First of all, we are coming, of course, in a — the

    .           P-14

      1  problem is the exact dating of this image. If this image
      2  had been taken, let us say, in November, December, let us
      3  say December 1942, I think it could have been a plausible
      4  suggestion. I mean, we would have to look then in what
      5  shape of tins sealant is coming, but let us assume that
      6  this is, this is December, at that moment we know that
      7  there was construction activity on the roof. We also know
      8  that by the end of January, I mean, in fact, by the middle
      9  of January already, from correspondence, that the roof of
    10  morgue No. 1 had been completed, and one of the reasons
    11  for that we know that is the notorious Fergantung’s letter
    12  of January 29, 1943. So, what is the reason that we know
    13  that this is not December 1942, but that this is or that
    14  we are already talking about probably February 1943.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought you said ’42, I am bound to say.
    16  MR IRVING:  November ’42?

    Section 15.17 to 37.11

    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My argument is that Mr Irving’s argument could be taken
    18  seriously at least for a moment until we have established
    19  what shape these containers come if this photo had been
    20  taken in December 1942. My argument is that the roof was
    21  already completed by January 1943.
    22  My second argument is that one can, if one looks
    23  carefully at this photo, see that there is some kind of
    24  black line on the top of the chimney. There seems to be
    25  some soot on the top of the chimney which means that the
    26  chimney, as it is depicted in this photo, has had some

    .           P-15

      1  kind of activity already.
      2  We know that there were trials, the first trial
      3  firing of the incinerators was, in fact, in late January
      4  1943. That was the first trial firing of the
      5  incinerators. On the basis of that, it is very clear that
      6  this photo must be taken after the first trial firing of
      7  the incinerators. That is again the letter of 19, 29
      8  talks about the trial firing of the incinerators,
      9  otherwise there would be no soot on the top of the
    10  chimney.
    11  On the basis of that, it is possible to date
    12  this photo at least after the end of January 1943 when the
    13  roof was completed and, therefore, would be no reason at
    14  that moment for any other kind of boxes with sealant to be
    15  on the roof.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask one question and then I will
    17  stop? How do you date this photograph as February ’43?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Because we know that by early March ’43, the whole
    19  building was completed and, by implication, the gas
    20  chamber would have been covered with dirt. We know also
    21  — so that is the last date that is possible. I mean,
    22  these photos are not dated.
    23  We also know that the first experimental firing
    24  of the incinerators happened in end of January 1943. So
    25  it must have been, this photo must have been taken after
    26  the end of January 1943 and before the official completion

    .           P-16

      1  of the building in early March 1943. This is why I say
      2  February.
      3  MR IRVING:  Professor van Pelt, have you seen a photograph of
      4  that roof with just snow on it and no kind of
      5  protruberances at all, that flat roof?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I think there is a photograph of that, yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: What conclusions do you draw from examining that
      8  photograph? Those protruberances were moveable?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you present me to the photograph, I will draw
    10  conclusions from it.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: You say you have seen the photograph. If there is a
    12  photograph of that roof with flat snow on it, a pure sheet
    13  of white snow, and no protruberances on it, and that
    14  implies that the protruberances were mobile and could be
    15  carried around like drums of tar, for example?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I am not going to speculate upon a photograph I
    17  do not have in front of me. If you present the photo, I
    18  am very happy to explain that photo and I have an
    19  explanation for that photo.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor, actually I think you are wrong on
    21  this point because you have accepted there is such a
    22  photograph. You have seen it. Can you not help Mr Irving
    23  — he obviously has not got the photograph — by giving
    24  the explanation that you obviously have?
    25  MR IRVING:  I have the photograph but not immediately
    26  available, my Lord.

    .           P-17

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. Then the explanation is simple. What happens is that
      2  after the dirt was brought on top of the roof of the gas
      3  chamber or morgue No. 1, the protection of these chimneys
      4  would have been less. If we then had snow on top of that,
      5  it is very unlikely we would have seen much of these
      6  little chimneys.
      7  MR IRVING:  I only have one more question going to these
      8  protruberances on the roof. You say the Germans are
      9  basically a very methodical and orderly kind of people
    10  when they design their buildings; they are not arty
    11  crafty. They do not put a pillar here and a pillar there
    12  and “Let us have two over there”. They will put them in a
    13  straight line down the middle, as, indeed, we know they
    14  did in that very building, in the gas chamber, as you call
    15  it?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They are construction pillars we are talking about?
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, the construction pillars that go down the centre of
    18  the room, do they not, with one single reinforced concrete
    19  beam down the centre of the room?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: So these pillars go down the centre of the room.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not only Germans. I presume even English architecture and
    23  Canadian architecture do the same.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am sure they do. Therefore, the wire mesh columns that
    25  you talked about which went up the side of the pillars
    26  would also be running down the centre of the roof, would

    .           P-18

      1  they not?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, not necessarily. I mean, you can put them either on
      3  the left or on the right side of the columns.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we have another look at that photograph, in particular
      5  the one on page 10A? Is it your impression that those
      6  four objects are evenly spaced?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It seems that the second object is slightly more, the
      8  second object from the right, seems to be slightly more to
      9  the left — it seems to be at a different line than the
    10  first and the third.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. Do they appear to you to be running down the
    12  centre line of that roof?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Or anywhere near the centre line of that roof?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know, near. It is very difficult to say in this
    16  photograph exactly where they are, but it seems to be in
    17  this perspective that the interpretation is that No. 1 and
    18  No. 3 maybe would be in line, but certainly No. 2 would
    19  not be on the same line as No. 1 and 3, going from the
    20  right, and No. 4 it is very difficult to determine exactly
    21  what that thing is.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, have you received just now a copy of
    23  this photograph of the underside of the roof?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I have it right in front of me.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: You accept that the underside of that slab we are looking
    26  at there in the colour photograph, which is Leichenkeller

    .           P-19

      1  No. 1 of crematorium No. 2, is the room you identified as
      2  the room where 500,000 people were gassed to death?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you accept that we can indeed see a very large amount
      5  of the space of that underside of that roof?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is very difficult from this photograph to say how much
      7  space it is. I have been under the roof and it is a very
      8  tight space when you go there, when you actually film it
      9  or photograph it, the scale becomes very difficult to
    10  determine. What we certainly see here is that, if indeed
    11  what we see in the front of this photograph is the bricks,
    12  and pieces of bricks, then actually we are looking in a
    13  very, very narrow space, because these bricks are this
    14  size more or less, so we are talking about a space here, a
    15  crawl space right now.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Like speediology, is it not, like cave hunting? It would
    17  be like going down into a very narrow cave, but all the
    18  same the people manage to get down there and take the
    19  photograph of that large area of roof space and you can
    20  see the lines of the formwork, the wooden lines where the
    21  concrete has been moulded into the wet concrete as running
    22  between the boards of the formwork?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: You would expect therefore to find that interrupted in
    25  some way if there were these holes in the roof?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would like to point out to you that in fact, if we see

    .           P-20

      1  the kind of converging parallel lines of the formwork
      2  going from the top of the photo, then passing over at
      3  least two big kind of stains, which shows it is not very
      4  smooth, and then suddenly that formwork stops because
      5  there is actually a diagonal line going more or less from
      6  the top left of the picture to the middle of the right
      7  hand side, so the form work certainly not very regular,
      8  which it is very easy to see on this photo.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: You do accept, do you not, that the whole of the story of
    10  the 500,000 people killed in that chamber rises or falls,
    11  rests or falls on the existence of those holes in that
    12  roof?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: We only have the eyewitness evidence.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I disagree with that. The whole story rises and falls on
    16  the evidence that this room was a gas chamber, which is a
    17  slightly different issue.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, setting that aside for a moment and we will come
    19  back to that other evidence in a moment, we still have not
    20  heard any other evidence than the eyewitness evidence we
    21  have heard about.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, before you leave the photograph,
    23  took this photograph?
    24  MR IRVING:  A number of, shall we say, revisionist researchers
    25  have gone down there and taken these photographs.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The professionals say it is revisionist

    .           P-21

      1  research.
      2  MR IRVING:  It is revisionist research, my Lord, but the point
      3  I was about to make was, as your Lordship may apprehend it
      4  was, as it is now accepted and has been accepted for some
      5  years that the whole story rises and falls on the
      6  existence of holes, one would have expected the
      7  researchers at the other end of the spectrum to have been
      8  down frantically looking for those holes to prove us wrong
      9  and they have not. They have not bothered to scrape off
    10  the rubble on the top to look for the evidence on top of
    11  the holes. They have not bothered to make any kind of
    12  survey clearing aside this brick mess underneath, digging
    13  deeper in, looking for evidence that those holes exist and
    14  frankly, my Lord, I cannot accept the notion that the
    15  Nazis, in the last frantic days when we heard yesterday
    16  they were in a blue funk, blowing up buildings, taking out
    17  the equipment, dismantling everything nut and bolt, that
    18  they would have gone round with a bucket of cement filling
    19  in the holes of the buildings they were about to dynamite.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is in the nature of a small speech and
    21  obviously you will be making that point later on, but for
    22  the time being press on with your questions.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I respond to this? Can I take the speech as
    24  a question?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us deal with it slightly more
    26  evidentially. You are being asked for the evidence you

    .           P-22

      1  rely on apart from the eyewitnesses.
      2  MR IRVING:  My Lord —-
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause. You have your shout and I am
      4  going to have mine. You have identified the photographs
      5  which we have just been looking at, and I think we are
      6  going to want to know what other evidence you rely on.
      7  Mr Irving, that is not an inconvenient moment to ask that
      8  question, is it?
      9  MR IRVING:  I was just going to ask one supplementary question,
    10  which is to your knowledge, Professor, have any
    11  investigations of the underside of that roof been made by
    12  the Auschwitz museum authorities or the Polish
    13  authorities?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know, my Lord.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you believe that, if there was any doubt as to the
    16  existence of those holes, or if there was any belief that
    17  those holes really existed, is it not likely that they
    18  would have made the most strenuous attempts to establish
    19  that fact?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot second guess the way the Auschwitz museum or the
    21  Polish authorities operate. What I do know is that they
    22  do not generally allow their research agenda to be set by
    23  revisionists.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I introduce a second piece of evidence?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I would find it helpful, Mr Irving, to

    .           P-23

      1  know what other evidence. You started by asking what
      2  other evidence is there.
      3  MR IRVING:  This is the question I asked earlier on and I did
      4  say that we would come back to that.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have the answer now.
      6  MR IRVING:  We have the eyewitnesses to whose integrity I shall
      7  be coming back later on this morning, but let us hear what
      8  else you have?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The second piece of evidence I would like to introduce is
    10  in tab No. 2, and it is circled photo No. 6, which is an
    11  air photo taken by Americans in the summer of 1944, which
    12  shows, if we look at that –, I do not know exactly how to
    13  turn it. If one looks at the photo from the side, we see
    14  crematorium (ii) to the right and crematorium 3 to the
    15  left. Now, one sees in this photo very clearly jutting
    16  out the undressing room. It is actually the entry at the
    17  end. It is like a little tab attached to it, and the
    18  morgue No. 1, and on morgue No. 1 there are four dots. In
    19  the same morgue No. 1 at crematorium 3 one sees those
    20  three dots.
    21  MR IRVING:  You describe them as dots, Professor. Would you
    22  like to estimate how long those dots actually are?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The dots are going, as it were, in a line up
    24  to the top of the page. Are these the dots there?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.

    .           P-24

      1  MR IRVING:  If I may point them out on this large colour map,
      2  my Lord, they go along this roof here, do they not, which
      3  is the alleged gas chamber? Right?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: OK.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So that is a second piece of evidence, and I will leave it
      7  to this for the movement. I presume Mr Irving will
      8  challenge this and I will respond to his challenge.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: I did ask you a question if you remember. This was, would
    10  you estimate on the evidence in front of you approximately
    11  how big those dots are?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I find it very difficult. I do not know exactly how the
    13  shadow runs.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is that a shadow or an object?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, can I intervene to be helpful? There is
    16  an even clearer photograph, a medium enlargement, on the
    17  previous page in the bundle on the right-hand side.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is a better photograph. I think
    19  that is helpful.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  It is even clearer.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it the same photograph?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  I do not know. The witness will know that.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  More overexposed, as it were, than the other
    24  one.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. It is not exactly. It was not taken from the same
    26  thing because you can see near crematorium 3, on the one

    .           P-25

      1  photograph you can see these lines going in, which
      2  actually were used for labels, attach labels to it, and
      3  when they were published in 1979 or so, and you do not see
      4  those lines pointing to crematorium 3, the morgue No. 1
      5  and the fence in the image on page No. 5, printed No. 4.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  On page 5 crematorium (ii) is on the left.
      7  Correct?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. Crematorium (ii) is on the left.
      9  MR IRVING:  Are these the same photographs, Professor?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, they do not seem to be. I think they are the same
    11  photograph but they come from a different source.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not think they can be the same photographs Professor,
    13  because of course the shadow of the chimney is going in
    14  the different direction, unless I am wrong..
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The shadow of the chimney goes in the same direction. We
    16  see the shadow of the chimney going north west in both
    17  photos.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think one may be the mirror image of the
    19  other but I am not sure it matters very much whether they
    20  are the same photographs?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So the question posed to me was the size of the objects.
    22  It is very difficult to determine the size of the objects,
    23  because of the way the shadow works. If one looks at the
    24  shadow of the chimney, one sees that the chimney really
    25  projects considerably out of the building, the shadow of
    26  the chimney. So it seems to be the sun is coming in this

    .           P-26

      1  case from the southeast. I do not know exactly what time,
      2  maybe it comes from the east more.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would not build too much on that, because
      4  I think it could be the same photograph which has been put
      5  in the wrong way round, as it were.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, they are exactly the same.
      7  MR IRVING:  I accept they are the same photographs. Would you
      8  agree that both the chimney of the crematorium and
      9  whatever these pipe like objects you say are would all be
    10  vertical? They would not be leaning in any one direction?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The object, you mean?
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The chimney itself and the —-
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Both the crematorium chimney and the protruberances on the
    15  roof which you think these dots are, would they all be
    16  vertical?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: So they would all cast shadows in the same direction, at
    19  the same angle, would they not, if that were so?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is quite likely.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: On this photograph they clearly do not cast shadows in the
    22  same direction. The smudges or dots appear to be first
    23  one way and then another?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is the indeed true.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are these dots visible on any of the other air photographs
    26  taken of that building?

    .           P-27

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes they are.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Either before or after?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you going to show these photographs to us?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I just selected one.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, might I suggest that it would have been helpful to
      7  the court if you had produced the other photographs that
      8  you allege exist containing these dots?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I thought that this was sufficient, but I presume the
    10  court can obtain them if they want it. But I think that
    11  these dots show very clearly that there are four
    12  introduction devices in morgue No. 1, or four something on
    13  top of that roof.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor, I strongly suggest that is a major quantum leap
    15  to suggest that a dot which on the face of it is about 15
    16  feet long on the roof of this crematorium building can
    17  have anything at all to do with the protruberances that
    18  you were talking about earlier, which at its largest
    19  extent in the eyewitness evidence that I have seen is of
    20  the order of 36 inches.
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, the whole of the width of what you call the
    22  alleged gas chamber I think is something like, what is it,
    23  a little less than 20 feet. So, if you look at the width
    24  of this room and you look then at the dots, we are
    25  certainly not talking about dots which are 15 feet wide.
    26  We are more looking at dots which are probably 3 feet

    .           P-28

      1  wide.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: I strongly disagree. They are over one quarter of the
      3  width of that roof in all their versions and
      4  manifestations on these various photographs.
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not going to argue at moment about the width.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Moreover, they cast no shadow.
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is impossible to say what kind of shadow they cast.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: They cast no shadow.
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, we are looking at an immensely enlarged image
    10  from a small negative. These negatives, by the way, my
    11  Lord, have been preserved. They are sitting all on a roll
    12  and they have been preserved. These photos have been
    13  analysed by two different parties.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you name those two different parties please?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr John Ball in Canada and in British Columbia was the
    16  first one who analysed these photos in the early 1990s.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it not correct they were first analysed by a man
    18  called Mr Brigioni?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, the CIA. I am sorry, indeed the CIA published these
    20  photos in 1979.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: About 1974, I believe?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Whatever, 1974, 1979.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you aware of the fact that Mr Brigioni, the author of
    24  that publication of photographs, the CIA operative who,
    25  with a fellow author, first published these photographs,
    26  has recently published a book called Photo Fakery?

    .           P-29

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: In which he sets out chapter by chapter how easy it is to
      3  forge photographs, as we all know. Using modern computers
      4  and this kind of thing you can take people out of
      5  photographs and move people around. This same Mr Brigioni
      6  is an expert on photo forgery. Are you aware of that
      7  fact?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I was not. I presume that, with today’s computer
      9  technology, he indeed would be able to do this.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you suggesting, Mr Irving, that these
    11  photographs are forgeries?
    12  MR IRVING:  I am not suggesting that per se, my Lord, but what
    13  I am suggesting is that one has to be alert to the
    14  possibility that somebody, for whatever reason, has put a
    15  smudge on these photographs. The National Archives of the
    16  United States, where the original photographs were housed
    17  in the cartographic division, at the time they were issued
    18  by the CIA, the National Archives issued a disclaimer
    19  saying these photographs, as they are housed in the
    20  National Archives Cartographic Branch, do not contain the
    21  labelling which the CIA has attached. They made no
    22  references to these actual dots or anything. They just
    23  dissociated themselves from the kind of treatment.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I continue? Because I was asked —-
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. What question do you think you are
    26  answering?

    .           P-30

      1  MR IRVING:  Do you have any opinion as to the integrity of
      2  these photographs?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have an opinion on the integrity of the photographs
      4  which is based on an analysis by Dr. Neville Bryant at the
      5  NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasodena done in 1996,
      6  and I actually was present in the room with him when he
      7  got his job. I was not present when he actually handed in
      8  the report.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, is this report of the Pasodena Jet
    10  Propulsion Laboratory in evidence before us?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is not, but I have testimony of Mr Michael Schurmer,
    12  who commissioned the report, of the results and I just
    13  want do explain the position of Dr Bryant. He is the
    14  supervisor of cartographic applications and image
    15  processing applications at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory
    16  and he seems to be the most experienced analyst of air
    17  photos in the United States.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is Mr Schurmer a friend of yours?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, he is not. We have met a couple of times.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there any reason why he would not have provided any
    21  written version of that testimony to you for the purposes
    22  you needed it for?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think that at the moment it is necessary to have
    24  a testimony by Dr Bryant in court. You will have to prove
    25  this is a fakery, Mr Irving. These photos are at the
    26  moment evidence as photos. If you want to say that this

    .           P-31

      1  is a fake, I would say prove it and then we can get the
      2  report of Dr Bryant.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, I think that his Lordship will educate
      4  you as to the burden of proof in an English defamation
      5  action.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure that is really quite right. If
      7  you are not saying that these are fakes, and I think you
      8  just told me that you were not putting forward that
      9  positive case, then it does not seem to me that it is
    10  necessary for this witness to refer to the expert analysis
    11  at all. But, if you are saying it is a forgery or has
    12  been tampered with in some way, then it may be that we do
    13  need to see what the expert said.
    14  MR IRVING:  In that case, my Lord, I think we ought to ask the
    15  witness as to the nature of the expertise given by the Jet
    16  Propulsion Laboratory, which did not go to the forgery
    17  aspect, as I understand it, but to the aspect of what
    18  those objects were and how large they were. Am I right,
    19  Professor?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that right?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. The question which was asked to Dr Bryant was very
    22  simple. The first question was: Had these negatives been
    23  tampered with? It was partly based on a suggestion by
    24  Mr Ball who had analysed them in 1990, using
    25  analogue machines, which means he did not use computer
    26  enhancement but he used analogue machine, in which Mr Ball

    .           P-32

      1  had said that in the CIA report things had been added to
      2  the photo, and this went very specifically to groups of
      3  prisoners being marched around the camp where at a certain
      4  moment one could see something like a little —-
      5  MR IRVING:  Brush marks?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Brush marks which had been drawn in.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not these photographs, anyway, is it?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is actually in these photographs, but it is too small.
      9  But that was one of the”proofs”. It was that group of
    10  prisoners which is not seen in this enlargement. They are
    11  walking around in the camp.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we remain with these photographs, please?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They are in these photographs but not visual. I am just
    14  trying to explain the brief which Mr Bryant got.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was he given the original negatives to look at or copies
    16  of the negatives?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The negatives are in Jerusalem.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: The original negatives are in Jerusalem?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, there is a roll of negatives in Jerusalem.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: How did the American government negatives come into the
    21  possession of the Jerusalem authorities?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have no idea. They are in the Abfashen(?)
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you sure this is not just a duplicate made by the
    24  National Archives of the United States?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not sure. I know there is a roll of negatives in the
    26  Abfashen and I have been always under the impression that

    .           P-33

      1  it is the original roll of negatives given to Israel
      2  because of the importance of this material.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I think we are really looking for is
      4  what was the was conclusion at which Mr Bryant arrived?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: What Dr Bryant did was analyse these images by using
      6  computer technology, and he said that the problem which
      7  occurred in marching these prisoners which were marching
      8  around is that the size of a head of a person is the same
      9  as the size of a grain in the negative, and that the
    10  result of that was that a morey effect which occurs when
    11  also in the newspaper when you photograph a picture which
    12  has been screened twice. This is one of the problems.
    13  When you go to the very small scale, it becomes very
    14  difficult to exactly understand the behaviour of these
    15  individual grains at that level.
    16  MR IRVING:  Can we remain with the dots on the roof, please? Is
    17  there any morey effect visible on them?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We are basically talking about very small objects, and
    19  I do not know if there is morey effect on them. But the
    20  issue which Bryant had to address was that the so-called
    21  proof Ball had for the tampering with these photos were
    22  these lines of prisoners. Once Bryant showed that these
    23  had not been tampered with, that there had been absolutely
    24  no tampering with this image, then the issue of if they
    25  had been tampered with, the dots on top of the
    26  Leichenkeller No. 1, became in some way irrelevant,

    .           P-34

      1  because the issue which Ball had brought to him was based
      2  on those groups of prisoners.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. So Bryant did not actually address the
      4  question whether these dots that we see on the
      5  enlargements were added, forged additions?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. He looked if there was any proof of addition to it
      7  and he had said no.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Generally speaking?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, generally speaking. There is a second one and this
    10  is quite an interesting one. Again, the big problem with
    11  all of this of course is that nothing of this has been
    12  published. It would have been published by Schurmer if it
    13  was not for this libel case. People are waiting to see
    14  what the outcome of this libel case is. That is that
    15  these photos were taken in sequence, which means that it
    16  is a mechanical camera which starts running, and photos
    17  were taken for bombing raids on the Bunaplatz in
    18  Monowitz. So what happened is that, as the bomber starts
    19  to approach, this was probably taken by a Mosquito, the
    20  camera starts to run 10 to 15 minutes ahead of time, and
    21  starts taking photographs as it is approaching the bombing
    22  site.
    23  MR IRVING:  It takes stereoscopic pairs, does it not? In other
    24  words, each photograph was a certain distance away from
    25  the next one in terms of seconds, so, when viewed through
    26  a stereoscopic viewer, you would get a stereoscopic effect

    .           P-35

      1  so that you could see if these objects were in fact just
      2  smudges on the roof of some kind, or plant growths, or if
      3  they were what you would call chimneys?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think that they were taken with the intention to
      5  be looked through a stereoscopic viewer. It was simply
      6  that the camera was running with a certain speed and, as a
      7  result of that, you can look at them with a stereoscopic
      8  viewer, which is a slightly different issue.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was the system. They did not take two photographs
    10  simultaneously. They would take them at five second
    11  intervals to produce a stereoscopic effect?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think we are straying a rather
    13  long way down a possibly unprofitable side alley.
    14  MR IRVING:  In view of the fact that apparently, unless I am
    15  wrong, this is his only other evidence apart from the
    16  eyewitnesses.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have not asked him that yet. I have the
    18  point. You are alert to the possibility that these may be
    19  forgeries. Dr Bryant apparently concluded they were not.
    20  MR IRVING:  I have one more question to ask about the smudges
    21  on the roof as visible in the air photographs. What have
    22  you to say about the spacing of those smudges when you
    23  compare them with what I call the tar barrels on the roof
    24  in the other photograph? They are differently spaced, are
    25  they not?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot judge that. In the one photo we looking from

    .           P-36

      1  more or less ground level at these boxes, and now we look
      2  more or less straight from above and it is impossible to
      3  come to any conclusion one way or another.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: I disagree with you. Would it not be correct to say that
      5  in fact there is a very uneven spacing in the four tar
      6  barrels visible from the ground, whereas the smudges on
      7  the roof appear to be admittedly irregularly spaced but in
      8  a totally different way. Therefore, they have no
      9  connection whatsoever with the protruberances that are
    10  visible from ground level.
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have no comment on that.

    Section 37.12 to 53.26

    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we hear what other evidence you have that this
    13  building here, the Leichenkeller No. 1, of crematorium
    14  No. (ii) was a homicidal gas chamber, apart from the
    15  eyewitnesses and apart from the smudges on the roof?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: These are the two images which confirm the eyewitness
    17  report, and then there are a number of drawings made by a
    18  survivor.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Mr Olaire?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Olaire, which are in tab No. 3. There are three
    21  drawings I would like to refer to. The first drawing is
    22  No. 1 printed 3.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you just remind me? Olaire was an
    24  inmate. Was he a sonderkommando?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He was a sonderkommando.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Drawing No. 3?

    .           P-37

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is circled in my horrible handwriting No. 1.
      2  MR IRVING:  What tab are we under, please?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 3?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is a plan of crematorium No. (iii) which is the mirror
      5  image of crematorium No. (ii), so we have in some way to
      6  start to switch the left and right halves of our brain to
      7  understand this. What he has drawn in the room No. 3,
      8  which is, according to him, the gas chamber, are in fact
      9  four little blocks, four little squares, which are spaced
    10  from left to right, from left to right. They are labelled
    11  here, and of course they were not labelled at the time, as
    12  the Zyklon-B introduction openings.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who did the labelling?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In the final publication of Olaire’s drawings I think they
    15  were done by Klarsfelt or somebody who was working with
    16  Klarsfelt.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Did Olaire survive?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Olaire survived, yes. He survived and he was very far
    19  from Poland when Tauber gave his testimony. He was
    20  liberated in Germany and then he went back to Paris
    21  immediately. So the chance of cross pollination, as
    22  Mr Irving calls it, is very little. There is a second
    23  drawing which is in 46, so we are now one year later. It
    24  could be a little bit more problematic except the fact
    25  that at that moment images of the crematoria were not yet
    26  published. I just would like to draw your attention to

    .           P-38

      1  drawing No. 5 which is an image of crematorium No. (iii)
      2  as people are coming in, and this was drawn in 1945 and at
      3  that moment —-
      4  MR IRVING:  Is that 1945 or 1946?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 1945.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: I do not have a date on mine.
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK, it says 1945.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it would not be 1946, would it?
      9  MR IRVING:  These have been drawn from memory, am I correct?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: These are drawn from memory.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see. I thought he was drawing them whilst
    12  — no, I see.
    13  MR IRVING:  My Lord, this is very important you should
    14  appreciate these are drawn after the war.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid I had not, yes.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: These are drawn from memory. What I would like to say
    17  that he seems to have a very good memory because the first
    18  time actually that either the plans or images of
    19  crematorium (ii) or (iii) was published was in 1946 in the
    20  book by Kraus und Kulgar. That is a very crude image
    21  which Kraus und Kulgar, they made a little model. The
    22  plans were not published by the Polish Commission in
    23  1946. So we have here in 1945 someone who has been in
    24  that building, who lived in that building, who was a
    25  sonderkommando, who is a very, very experienced draftsman
    26  and painter, had a career before the war as a painter and,

    .           P-39

      1  obviously, has a good visual memory and who draws this
      2  building; and when one compares this building with the
      3  images of crematorium No. (iii), then in general one must
      4  say that, indeed, he remembered quite well. So I would
      5  say that this building suggests at least that he is at
      6  least knows what he sees and he is a credible witness as
      7  even when he works from memory.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: What is it that you derive from photograph No. 5?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Nothing, except that I want to show that it is remarkable
    10  that he is able to remember this building as well as he
    11  does without any visual aids.
    12  Then we come to No. 6 which is a drawing he made
    13  in 1946 of the same building which is crematorium
    14  No. (iii).
    15  MR IRVING:  Which is a mirror image of No. (ii), is that
    16  correct?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. What he does there, there is one problem with this
    18  drawing because he has to try to represent something which
    19  is hidden, but we where see in the middle level, to say,
    20  that is the incineration hole with the ovens, the ovens
    21  which are labelled as No. H in this case, and we see
    22  No. I, we see the coke to the right, we see the little
    23  officers, the SS man sitting there with the window through
    24  which he looks at the incineration room, you see upstairs.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which is the gas chamber in this building?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Bottom level, is it?

    .           P-40

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: At the bottom level, No. D. Of course, the gas chamber,
      2  taken from this perspective, would have been hidden by,
      3  when we see the soldier standing at No. C in the corridor,
      4  the gas chamber would have basically been running to the
      5  back out of the plain of the —-
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Towards the —-
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not towards, that would have been crematorium (ii). It
      8  runs away from us, if we go back to the original plan
      9  I showed you which was No. (i). So the problem he had of
    10  how to represent that gas chamber. So he drew it as if it
    11  is under the incineration room because there was no other
    12  way to really represent it, because he also wants to
    13  represent the undressing room which is No. A. You see
    14  there are basically two stairs, one stair to the left for
    15  people that are going down and we see the second stair is
    16  at No. B.
    17  MR IRVING:  In other words, his memory was wrong; he drew it in
    18  a way it actually was not?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, his memory is absolutely right.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you said that he drew it in a way that it is not
    21  because he wanted to represent it — he could not do it
    22  otherwise?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I mean, he had to represent the location of the gas
    24  chamber which is because the gas chamber jots out from the
    25  plain of the drawing. He now draws it under the
    26  incineration room, but, in fact, it goes, you know, it

    .           P-41

      1  goes to the back. I can do it, I mean, if this is the
      2  plain of the drawing, then the gas chamber would have gone
      3  like this, to the back. So he has to represent it one way
      4  or another and he does it a little bit in the way as
      5  probably somebody in ancient Egypt would have done it.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was Mr Olaire ever interrogated or questioned? Did he
      7  provide eyewitness statements?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I am happy to answer that he was not, but I would like
      9  to finish the drawing.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, make your point on this because I have
    11  not understood it yet.
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The major point is seen at No. E, one sees here in the
    13  drawing, and the photocopy is not very good, but E points
    14  at some shadow — it is almost seems like a shadow going
    15  down from the roof of the gas chamber to the bottom, and
    16  then you see three others, and the most right one is the
    17  clearest one in this photocopy and these are the four wire
    18  mesh introduction columns.
    19  MR IRVING:  This is in 1946?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is in 1946.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are saying that he has not heard any stories at all of
    22  what allegedly went on?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know exactly about the state of communication in
    24  1945 and ’46, but the eyewitness testimony about these
    25  introduction columns was given in May 1945 to Jan Sehn,
    26  but it was only published somewhere in 1946 and it was

    .           P-42

      1  actually the actual Kuhler document, and the actual, I
      2  mean, I mean the results were only published but the
      3  statements themselves were never published.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I not right in saying that Mr Tauber, when he gave his
      5  statements to Jan Sehn, there were many photo
      6  opportunities and his photographs were splashed all over
      7  the press with stories, the other eyewitness, and that
      8  would have been early 1946 or 1945?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know of any photo opportunities for Mr Tauber
    10  having been published in the press. If you can bring
    11  this, you know, I would be very happy to consider it.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor van Pelt, can I just make sure
    13  I have understood it, that when you say that these show
    14  the projections, whatever they may have been, you are
    15  talking about — can you see — that smudge there, that
    16  smudge there, that smudge there?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, that is actually, that is the installation which
    18  brings forced air into the ovens which actually, so that
    19  other little — no, the smudges are going down. I tried
    20  to interpret what your finger is doing.
    21  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: There?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, that is the door. That is the door. You are pointing
    23  now to the door.
    24  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Hold up your plan and tell me where I am supposed to see
    25  evidence of these projections?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Do you see the arrow with No. E?

    .           P-43

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Yes.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There you see where it just goes down, the arrow just
      3  points at a first line going down, but the most clearest
      4  one is the one —-
      5  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Oh, I see.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — the clearest one is the one which is half a centimetre
      7  away from D Olaire, for his name. There are four of these
      8  columns quite literally drawn into this gas chamber going
      9  down.
    10  MR IRVING:  But, in fact, he has it on the wrong side of the
    11  building. You accept that?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he has turned it 90 degrees on its
    13  axis, that is your evidence?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. Then we have a third piece by Olaire which again is
    15  a drawing from 1946 which is No. 7. There we see two
    16  sonderkommandos who are collecting, as it says, gold teeth
    17  and hair in the gas chamber. Then we see in the
    18  background, we see one of those columns.
    19  MR IRVING:  The cross-hatching, you mean?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The cross-hatching, yes. It is drawn in the same way —-
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you saying they actually did this job of removing the
    22  gold teeth and the hair actually inside the gas chamber?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. In general, they did it outside the gas chamber, but
    24  you must remember —-
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: The picture says it is happening in the gas chamber,
    26  according to you?

    .           P-44

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But you must remember that by the end of 1943 the gas
      2  chamber of crematorium (ii) was divided into two. There
      3  was a back gas chamber and there was a gas chamber in
      4  front.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Here is the wire mesh in the back of this picture?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, but there were two wire mesh columns in the back gas
      7  chamber and there were two wire mesh columns in the front
      8  gas chamber.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Coming out of these non-existent holes in the roof, is
    10  that correct?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Whatever. What happened was that when the transports were
    12  smaller, one of the big problems in the gassing the
    13  Germans had was that normally they had to fill up the
    14  whole gas chamber for the gassing really to go efficient.
    15  So by actually dividing the gas chamber up into two, they
    16  could gas a group in the small gas chamber at the back,
    17  and then they could use the front room after the gassing
    18  for work which otherwise would be done in the much more
    19  tight confinement of actually the little porch or up at
    20  the exit of the elevator in the incineration room.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask what your source is for that statement?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The source for the statement that there were two gas
    23  chambers?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That they divided the gas chamber into two
    25  and used one half only for gassing?
    26  MR IRVING:  Is this eyewitnesses again or do you have documents

    .           P-45

      1  that support that?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, there are eyewitnesses for that.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. In other words, you do not have a document apart
      4  from these sketches from memory —-
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I mean, at a certain moment if eyewitnesses say that the
      6  gas chamber was divided in two at the end of 1943, and
      7  Mr Bacon, for example, testifies to it that there has been
      8  a gassing in the Eichmann trial, that he came into the gas
      9  chamber to warm up, and that there has been a gassing in
    10  the second gas chamber right at the back, Mr Bacon did not
    11  need to prove one way or another about what was happening
    12  where. I mean, he was a kid who came into that gas, into
    13  that gas chamber.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we linger on No. 7 because I am very puzzled on this
    15  business of people extracting the teeth and cutting the
    16  hair inside the gas chamber with the bodies still piled
    17  where they lay?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, the bodies — we do not know exactly —-
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: He is telling us here in this picture, is he not? You
    20  yourself drew attention to what otherwise we might not
    21  have noticed — thanks very much — the wire mesh in the
    22  background?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think the evidence is, and you
    24  may not accept it, that these bodies had been moved from
    25  the half of the gas chamber where they had been gassed
    26  into the other half where the removal of the hair and the

    .           P-46

      1  teeth took place.
      2  MR IRVING:  And they just left this wire mesh column for no
      3  reason — it was kind of left over from —-
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was historical. I think that is the
      5  evidence.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The second gas chamber — there were two gas chambers,
      7  they were right one behind the other — the second one was
      8  used also when there were transports. We have a small one
      9  at the back. I mean, basically, half of the original gas
    10  chamber is used for small transports and the two are used
    11  for big transports. Of course, all the Zyklon-B
    12  introduction devices remain in that first room because the
    13  room is on occasions also used.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you notice that none of these people are wearing gas
    15  masks of any kind, although they are handling bodies that
    16  have clearly been contaminated with hydrogen cyanide?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not want at the moment to go into exactly —-
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, I do because this is an important point.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The testimony is that people were wearing gas masks when
    20  they went into the gas chamber itself to take the bodies
    21  out; that when these bodies were out, the dentists, the
    22  so-called dentists, did not need any gas masks any more to
    23  handle the bodies.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: They had been subjected to doses of hydrogen cyanide,
    25  hundreds of bodies, and yet these people are just handling
    26  them like this?

    .           P-47

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: And the hydrogen cyanide by that time had been taken out
      2  of the gas chamber by ventilators.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: How long did that procedure last then? I mean, we are
      4  trying to get some idea of the time scale of the operation
      5  involved.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Around half an hour.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: For all the hydrogen cyanide to evaporate off these bodies
      8  so these people could work on them quite harmlessly?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The ventilators, again eyewitness testimony says that the
    10  ventilators after the gassing that took around 20, 30
    11  minutes to take the gas out of the gas chamber.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, are you aware of a news item in the
    13  newspapers about two years ago, an American student had
    14  committed suicide with cyanide and when the rescue workers
    15  went in, the paramedics went in, nine of them were
    16  overcome by the fumes and were hospitalized afterwards?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I did not read the Canadian papers, I am sorry to say.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was an American newspaper and reported in the
    19  European press as well. I have the press clipping if you
    20  are interested. Nine of them were overcome by fumes from
    21  one body of a man who had committed suicide with cyanide,
    22  and they had to be hospitalized. So, on the face of it,
    23  this is quite an improbable picture we are looking at, if
    24  that is true?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think eyewitnesses will say that this is, indeed, what
    26  happened. People with gas masks go in the gas chamber to

    .           P-48

      1  remove the bodies and people without gas masks work on the
      2  bodies after they have been removed from the gas chamber.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you also read the testimony of some of the
      4  eyewitnesses, that they went in there smoking cigarettes
      5  and they went in there eating sandwiches, despite the gas
      6  masks?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, you will find my discussion on that whole issue
      8  in my expert report. Mr Irving at the moment is referring
      9  to an argument which has been made by Professor
    10  Faurisson. It is based on a complete falsification,
    11  misreading, misrepresentation, of the testimony of
    12  Mr Hirst.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Of Mr Hirst?
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We can come to that in due course, no doubt
    15  —-
    16  MR IRVING:  In other words, some eye witnesses we have to
    17  discount.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — but at the moment, Mr Irving — just
    19  listen to me; I would like to get some structure into it
    20  if we can — we are taking Professor van Pelt through the
    21  reasons other than eyewitnesses for saying that —-
    22  MR IRVING:  This, of course, is clearly an eyewitness again, is
    23  it not?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, will you just listen? We are
    25  taking Professor van Pelt through his evidence for saying
    26  that crematorium No. 9ii) was used as a gas chamber,

    .           P-49

      1  evidence apart from the eyewitnesses. We have seen the
      2  photographs. We have now seen the Olaire drawings. Can
      3  we move on and see whether there is any other evidence he
      4  relies on; if not, you can move on.
      5  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I would like just to linger two or three
      6  more minutes with the Olaire drawings because I have not
      7  really had my say on them.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
      9  MR IRVING:  First of all, it is not correct that this is just
    10  another form of eyewitness evidence, if I can put it like
    11  that, Professor van Pelt? This is an eyewitness who has
    12  the capability of drawing as well as speaking about what
    13  he claims to have seen, is that correct?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: He is an eyewitness. Would you say that he is an
    16  eyewitness who is normally balanced and in command of his
    17  faculties or is there anything odd about him?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not a psychologist. I think that these drawings,
    19  these drawings certainly seem to suggest, especially when
    20  we look at the architectural plans, when we look at the
    21  section of the building, that his powers of observation
    22  were perfectly in tact.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: I must say there is a difference between the architectural
    24  plan which he provided in 1946 and the rather more lurid
    25  pictures and, of course, you know what I am talking about,
    26  earlier. Would you look at the picture No. 5 which is the

    .           P-50

      1  exterior of the crematorium with flames and smoke belching
      2  from the chimney. Now, would you agree that these
      3  crematoria, in which the Germans had invested a great deal
      4  of money in building, would have been built to the latest
      5  design standards?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Design standards of what, Mr Irving?
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: For crematoria, following all the appropriate technical
      8  specifications?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, we know very well that the Auschwitz crematoria
    10  did not follow the usual civilian crematoria design
    11  standards.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there one single photograph, apart from the forged one
    13  put by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in their brochure
    14  (which they have admitted is a forgery) showing the
    15  chimneys of the Auschwitz crematoria smoking?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is one —-
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Even smoking, let alone flaming like this one?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is one photo, as far as I remember, in the images of
    19  the Hungarian action of 1944 which actually shows some
    20  smoke coming from a crematorium chimney.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is the photograph I am referring to which the Simon
    22  Wiesenthal Centre have admitted now because they have been
    23  shown the comparison with the original, unretouched
    24  photograph. Can I describe this photograph to you?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you know about this?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I do not know about the challenge to this photograph.

    .           P-51

      1  MR IRVING:  Well, it is a photograph showing prisoners arriving
      2  from the Hungarian action in the foreground, and in the
      3  background can be seen a chimney of a crematorium. On the
      4  original photograph the chimney is not smoking, but in the
      5  version posted by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in its
      6  publicity smoke has mysteriously appeared?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I refer to the published version of the photo and the copy
      8  of the photo, which actually is a copy of the photo, a
      9  print of the photo, which I have seen in Auschwitz.
    10  I have never seen the Simon Wiesenthal publication.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, the position is you will have to
    12  prove that in due course.
    13  MR IRVING:  I will bring those photographs to court, my Lord.
    14  (To the witness): One more question about the Olaire
    15  pictures. Of course, have you seen all the Olaire
    16  pictures or just the ones you have produced at the court?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have seen all the Olaire pictures.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, would it be right to say that he has a prurient
    19  interest in the female form?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know how this is relevant. I mean…
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Concerning his mental balance.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think —-
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Or the purpose for which these illustrations were made —
    24  let us put it like that.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that if one would judge the ability of someone to
    26  bear witness on the basis of their interest in the female

    .           P-52

      1  form, I think that not many people would be able to give
      2  evidence.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you agree that in almost every single one of these
      4  pictures he has drawn, for whatever purpose — there is
      5  another photograph that I have given there which is not in
      6  your collection — there are naked women full frontal on
      7  to the artist’s brush, so to speak, and that there is no
      8  reason whatsoever that he should have made these pictures
      9  in that way unless he intended to sell them. Is that a
    10  fair speculation?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I do not want to comment on what I understand
    12  your suggestion is that we are dealing here with a
    13  pornographer. I think it is absolutely not worth me to go
    14  into that.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: I did not use the word “pornography”. I said that his
    16  purpose in drawing these pictures was to produce a
    17  marketable item which he could sell in the media at some
    18  time?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, you will have prove to me, if you want to me to
    20  comment on it, that he ever tried to sell these things in
    21  the media.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let me put the question this way. Is it likely that
    23  nearly all the females who became victims of the
    24  bestialities of the Nazis in Auschwitz were nubile, young
    25  and attractive?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, it is not very likely.

    .           P-53

    Section 53.27 to 70.2

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Not likely. Thank you very much. No further questions on
      2  this particular matter. I want to go back to the
      3  testimony of the witness Bimko, unless Professor van
      4  Pelt —-
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we just ask, is there any further
      6  material that you rely on, apart from the eyewitnesses,
      7  for saying that crematorium (ii) was used as a gas
      8  chamber?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We can go through the documents. If you want the
    10  construction documents of the crematoria, this will be
    11  quite a long exercise.
    12  MR IRVING:  Are they explicit as to the use of the building?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We have documents which — we have a document, for
    14  example, about the Vergasungskeller which you know well.
    15  We have a document about the —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We need not bother with that. We know about
    17  that.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — the construction, the construction where at a certain
    19  moment we get an Auskleiderkellers in the basement. We
    20  talk about the introduction of hot hair into morgue No. 1,
    21  the proposition being made which breaks down very quickly
    22  after it has been introduced. I am happy to go in detail
    23  through those letters if you want me to.
    24  MR IRVING:  We will deal, if you wish, with the introduction of
    25  hot air. We have dealt with the undressing room,
    26  I believe, earlier in this case?

    .           P-54

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Maybe you have dealt, Mr Irving, I have not dealt with it
      2  and his Lordship asked me if I wanted to introduce other
      3  elements.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I just want to get the full picture. I do
      5  not want you to spend very long on this, but you deal with
      6  this in your report, do you not, at some length?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In detail, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: So we could call this corpus of evidence the —-
      9  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I do think that at some stage Mr Irving
    10  has to put it directly to Professor van Pelt what he says
    11  about the — Mr Irving’s thesis in cross-examination by me
    12  was that it was, indeed, a vergasungskeller, but that it
    13  was used for gassing lice or people that were already
    14  dead.
    15  MR IRVING:  The way I put it was that it had alternative other
    16  uses.
    17  MR RAMPTON:  I do think at some stage Mr Irving has to allow
    18  Professor van Pelt to deal with that thesis which includes
    19  the references to “Auskliederkeller”.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So no human killing but delousing?
    21  MR RAMPTON:  That was Mr Irving’s response to my
    22  cross-examination and the evidence about the cyanide in
    23  the zinc covers and the word “Vergasungskeller”, yes,
    24  indeed. They used it for gassing, clothes, people.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And objects.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  And objects.

    .           P-55

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is right. I do not when
      2  Mr Irving is going to come to that, but I think Mr Rampton
      3  is right in saying that that has to be put so that
      4  Professor van Pelt has the opportunity of dealing with it.
      5  MR IRVING:  I certainly had not overlooked the need to do that,
      6  my Lord, but I was going to do it in a logical, systematic
      7  —-
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, you do it when you want to.
      9  MR IRVING:  Yes, introducing two or three more documents before
    10  we got to that in which we have the word “vergasung”, and
    11  so on, of a relatively harmless nature.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But what Professor van Pelt has said is that,
    13  in addition to the photographs and the drawings and so on
    14  which we have been looking at this morning so far, he
    15  relies also on what one might call the construction
    16  documents.
    17  MR IRVING:  Yes, which he has just vaguely summarized as
    18  inferences to be drawn from them. But if we can just now
    19  go back to your reliance on the witness Bimko? Can we,
    20  please, have once again the reference in the bundle of
    21  documents, Auschwitz 1 or 2, to the Bimko testimony in the
    22  Belsen trial? While we are looking for it, can I confirm
    23  that that testimony is actually drawn in your version from
    24  the book by Raymond Phillips, the trial of Joseph Kramer
    25  and 44 others?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.

    .           P-56

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: So at the time you wrote your report, you had exactly the
      2  same pages in front of you that I have here which are
      3  pages 740 to 742 of the Phillips book?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I presume so. I mean —-
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — I presume it is only one edition.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Your contention is that you left nothing out of the Bimko
      8  testimony which was relevant to his Lordship and myself in
      9  evaluating the integrity of this witness?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have — Mr Irving, I have said a couple of times
    11  yesterday that my intention in giving, in writing down
    12  that section was not to bring in Dr Ada Bimko as a major
    13  witness on whom I rely. The intention of that section,
    14  which contains also other evidence or other descriptions
    15  of the gas chambers and crematoria — for example, the
    16  Polivoy account which was proven to be wrong — was simply
    17  to show the development of knowledge about Auschwitz since
    18  1942. It is in three sections. I start in 1942. I try
    19  to trace exactly how the knowledge became available and in
    20  what way. In that sense, of course, the Lunenberg trial
    21  had some importance, but much more importance because of
    22  the admissions of the people of Kramer and the others who
    23  were actually tried in that case.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I interrupt you at this point and say so, in other
    25  words, you concede that the Pravda account by Polivoy is
    26  totally or largely unreliable?

    .           P-57

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have written in my report that is — I do not think it
      2  everything, but it is a largely unreliable account as far
      3  as the description of the exterminations is concerned.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, it is fanciful; it include things which
      5  never existed in Auschwitz.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Oh, yes, I have no problem —-
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is pure propaganda for the Allies or for the Russians?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think necessarily, Mr Irving, that this is
      9  propaganda for the Allies. We are dealing here with a
    10  writer, a correspondent, a war correspondent, attached to
    11  the Red Army who arrives in the middle of an offensive in
    12  a camp which shows, even of what remains there, it shows
    13  clear traces of a very big crime.
    14  I think that we should remember that in 1945
    15  people had not yet experienced these kinds of
    16  installations; that these installations were in ruins and
    17  I think Mr Polivoy, partly probably on what he heard
    18  people say who had remained there which was largely sick
    19  people, and partly on the basis of his own imaginings,
    20  tried to imagine what such a place would have been.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Among the things the Russians found, was there a hospital
    22  full of sick people, including large numbers of sick Jews?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There were a number of lazarettes in the camp, yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Hospitals, yes.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think that a lazarette and a hospital are
    26  necessarily the same thing.

    .           P-58

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: A lazarette is a military hospital?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The lazarettes were barracks in which people were put.
      3  There was no medical equipment. There was nothing really
      4  to treat them. There were many descriptions of the way
      5  these lazarettes were operated. There are also documents
      6  relating to them. So I think I would not want to —-
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: We do not need to go into the problems caused in the
      8  medical conditions in Germany. I am just asking, the
      9  Russians did find hospitals or barracks of a hospital
    10  nature in which large numbers of sick and unemployable
    11  people, including large numbers of sick and unemployable
    12  Jews, were housed, for example, the father of Anne Frank
    13  was there, is that not right?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, when the camp was evacuated in the middle of
    15  January 1945, indeed, prisoners who were sick were men who
    16  could not make the march to the west remained behind.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you appreciate the point I am making that, surely, the
    18  legend has it that the Nazis liquidated everybody who fell
    19  sick or who was unemployable?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, in my report I think I have pointed out in
    21  response to things you have said about what happened to
    22  the Frank family, that by the end of 1944 the situation in
    23  Auschwitz had changed, that while until the end — while
    24  throughout the history of the camp there were regular
    25  selections of sick, in the lazarettes of sick inmates who
    26  when they were considered to be incurable or too weakened

    .           P-59

      1  that they were taken to the gas chamber, that this policy
      2  had stopped — first of all, it had been diminished in
      3  late 1944 and at a certain moment stopped. No gas
      4  selections were undertaken any more in the lazarettes in
      5  the end of 1944. This is one of the reasons that there
      6  were a relatively large amount of sick prisoners by the
      7  time the camp was evacuated.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: So the Nazis are feeding large numbers of useless mouths
      9  who were Jewish and sick and they were in the jaws of
    10  death, they were in the heart of the extermination
    11  camp —-
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving —-
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: — and they were in hospital?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — I would not want to infer any kind of thing about the
    15  regular procedures in the camp on the basis of what was
    16  happening there in December or January 1944 — December
    17  1944 or January 1945.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you now have in front of you the Bimko testimony?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not have it right in front of me now.
    20  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is H2(ii). It starts at footnote 404
    21  behind the tab 401 to 420.
    22  MR IRVING:  You have conceded, in other words, that the Pravda
    23  account as an eyewitness account is largely unreliable?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I have done that in my report so I have no problem
    25  with that statement.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: So systematically we will now continue with the next

    .           P-60

      1  eyewitness.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are we on Dr Bimko?
      3  MR IRVING:  We are now on Dr Ada Bimko, as she was at that
      4  time. Her real name now, at any rate, Adassa
      5  Rosensacht(?)
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  She is still alive, is he.
      7  MR IRVING:  I believe she is still alive. She is a leading
      8  figure, or was a leading figure, in the United States
      9  Holocaust Memorial Museum. She was an adviser and on
    10  their Library Council. (To the witness): Can we look at
    11  paragraph 1?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Which footnote?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: On page 740. Paragraph 1. This is, of course an
    14  eyewitness who is claiming to testify in a capital trial
    15  against captured Nazis who were on trial for their lives.
    16  She has made this deposition. At the end of paragraph 1,
    17  did you read the words when you were doing your research:
    18  “I have examined the records of the numbers cremated and
    19  I say that the records show that about 4 million persons
    20  were cremated at the camp”?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you any comment to make on the voracity of that
    23  statement?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is unlikely that it happened, but I do not exactly know
    25  what record she was looking at.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Could she have looked at any records in Auschwitz and

    .           P-61

      1  found that 4 million people had been cremated?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know. I do not know exactly what records there
      3  were. The 3 or 4 million is very unlikely.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. The figure of 4 million was, of course, the original
      5  propaganda figure put out by the Polish Government for
      6  whatever reason, is that correct?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes — it was a figure which was established actually, I
      8  do not say for propaganda reasons, it was a figure which
      9  was established by the Russians after they liberated the
    10  camp, the first —-
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: But, of course, she is not testifying here that she has
    12  seen a figure put about by Russia propaganda; she says “I
    13  have seen the records and they show that 4 million people
    14  had been cremated”?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So, I mean, if you want to make a point, Mr Irving, that
    16  she is wrong there or that she maybe says something which
    17  she did not do, that is fine.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: The point, obviously, which his Lordship will appreciate,
    19  as I am working towards this, you have had this document
    20  in front of you when you wrote this report. In the very
    21  first paragraph, when she is making this statement on
    22  oath, she has said a statement which, to your knowledge
    23  and to mine and to the court’s knowledge now, is quite
    24  obviously untrue?
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is not actually right, is it?
    26  She is claiming to have looked at some records. We do not

    .           P-62

      1  know what the records were or what they show. She is not
      2  giving, as it were, false eyewitness evidence at that
      3  point in her statement, is she?
      4  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I beg to differ. “I have examined the
      5  records of the numbers cremated.” “I have examined the
      6  records and I say that the records show that about 4
      7  million persons were cremated at the camp”. What other
      8  possible interpretation can you put on that statement?
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I have just suggested one to you.
    10  Anyway, carry on with your questions.
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I make a remark?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think this would be an interesting exercise, and I do
    14  not want to judge it any further, if I had made use of the
    15  Bimko evidence in any way in relationship to did the gas
    16  chamber exist or not? I have never used — I have just
    17  mentioned Bimko in this one particular context; the
    18  emergence of knowledge of Auschwitz. I have not used her
    19  anywhere else ever. I have not brought her here in as an
    20  eyewitness to the gassings, to the existence of Zyklon-B
    21  columns.
    22  MR IRVING:  You just threw her in as a bit of spice?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Sorry?
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: You threw her into your report as a bit of spice, did you?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not as a spice.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: As one more statistic? So, instead of having four

    .           P-63

      1  eyewitnesses, you would have five?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I tried to give an impression of what was
      3  happening at the Lunenberg trial, what was said at the
      4  Lunenberg trial.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: We know what happened at the Lunenberg trial. A large
      6  number of these unfortunates who were on trial were
      7  convicted and hanged on the basis of her testimony,
      8  including the person mentioned in the last paragraph,
      9  paragraph 8 on the next page: “On the day before the
    10  British troops arrived at Belsen”, she said, “I saw Karl
    11  Flrazich [Francioh], who was a cook, shoot a man internee
    12  dead for stealing vegetables”. Were you aware that in her
    13  oral evidence at the Belsen trial she said it was a woman
    14  that the man shot?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I did not know that, to be very honest, the
    16  witness Ada Bimko does not really interest me so much
    17  because I have not made use of her in reconstructing the
    18  history of any of the four crematoria.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: So we are working towards the point where we do not have
    20  to strike off Mrs Bimko. There is one more thing I want
    21  to draw your attention to. At the beginning of paragraph
    22  6, this woman who has medical knowledge — she is a doctor
    23  — writes: “Whilst at Auschwitz I saw SS male nurses
    24  Heine and Stibitz inject petrol into women patients”. Are
    25  you aware, Professor van Pelt, that phenol injections are
    26  a standard treatment for typhus?

    .           P-64

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In Auschwitz, I understand that phenol was used as a
      2  regular — sorry, I will answer the question. I am sorry,
      3  for this. No, I did not know that.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. So on top of the evidence we looked at
      5  yesterday where Bimko described cylinders of gas and pipes
      6  which you admitted was wrong, but possibly a
      7  misinterpretation of what she was — you thought she might
      8  have seen the ventilation system — we have no evidence of
      9  that. Bimko is, in other words, a totally unreliable
    10  witness and should not have been relied upon in any way,
    11  notwithstanding the fact that her evidence sent several
    12  men to the gallows in Lemberg?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I do not want to judge the Lunenberg trial.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but do you accept that she is not a
    15  witness on whom reliance should be placed as to what did
    16  or did not take place at Auschwitz?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that some of her statements are historically
    18  defensible and some of them probably not. This is also,
    19  of course, an issue of cross-examination. I do not think
    20  there was much of a cross-examination at the time. But
    21  I think this is with every, you know, with every witness,
    22  there always will be some things which will be wrong or
    23  will be mistaken.
    24  MR IRVING:  Is there a possibility that with a witness like
    25  Bimko and Pauber who had suffered appalling indignities at
    26  the hands of the Nazis, that when the Allies came, in the

    .           P-65

      1  case of Bimko, it was the British Army who rescued here,
      2  that she saw her moment for revenge had come and she could
      3  take out a few of the hated Nazis?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Anything is possible, Mr Irving.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am trying to find some other reason why she should have
      6  deliberately lied in her depositions, sworn on oath in a
      7  capital case? You can suggest no alternative reason than
      8  that, that possibly her memory was wrong, she had a bad
      9  memory or she was imaginative?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There are many possibilities. It may be she was an
    11  habitual liar; maybe she was an habitual story-teller.
    12  Who knows? We cannot second guess the situation. The
    13  only evidence we have is right in front of us.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: So of your five eyewitnesses, we have lost the Russians,
    15  we have lost the Pravda account, we have lost Bimko now?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But I never introduced Bimko, so I do not know how I can
    17  have lost Bimko.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, some bulk larger than others in your report.
    19  Mr Tauber you rely on quite heavily, do you not?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I rely on Tauber for the description of the
    21  operation of the crematorium and the gas chambers. I have
    22  never, never introduced Miss Bimko as a witness for this
    23  material. So I cannot see how I lost her because I did
    24  not introduce her as a witness.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think the idea of “losing” somebody
    26  is a very helpful one, but it would help me if you

    .           P-66

      1  would —-
      2  MR IRVING:  Perhaps I should put a row of beans on the
      3  counter —-
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can you just let me complete my
      5  sentences sometimes? Would you for my benefit, Professor
      6  van Pelt, just tell me, really just enumerate, those
      7  witnesses, those eyewitnesses, who you say deserve some
      8  attention for what they have said in their accounts?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. Are we dealing only with crematorium (ii) or are we
    10  dealing with the —-
    11  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: With gassing, the extermination by gassing?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Extermination by gas?
    13  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Just the names so that Mr Irving knows who you do rely on.
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: An important one is Slova Dragon(?) who was one of the
    15  sonderkommandos. An important witness is Heinrich Tauber
    16  mentioned already before. An important witness is Pery
    17  Broad. An important witness is Hirst. Then we can take
    18  in also, both as a witness and his diary, Dr Kramer.
    19  These are either from the time itself or immediately after
    20  the war. Hans Almayer talks about gassings, but he is
    21  rather confused about many things so I would not want to
    22  rely too much one way or the other.
    23  MR IRVING:  Explain to the court who Hans Almayer is, please?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Hans Almayer was the Lager Fuhrer in Birkenhau in 1942 and
    25  early 43, but he left by the time these crematoria started
    26  to be in operation.

    .           P-67

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: By the time he was acting in effect as the deputy
      2  kommandant, is that right?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. Let me just try to get back to my enumeration of
      4  witnesses. Then during the Lunenburg trial Kramer
      5  admitted to gassings but did not describe the procedure in
      6  detail. So at the moment I would leave it to basically
      7  build up a general picture, these witnesses I think
      8  produce a sufficient evidence to come to some kind of
      9  solid conclusion on that issue.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. That is extremely helpful.
    11  Mr Irving, do resume.
    12  MR IRVING:  That is a relatively small number of eyewitnesses
    13  for a relatively large proposition, namely that the Nazis
    14  killed 500,000 people in that gas chamber with the
    15  collapsed roof. That is the only evidence that we have,
    16  apart from the sketches of Mr Olaire, and there is not a
    17  single document of any credible worth which explicitly
    18  bears out your case in all the hundreds of thousands of
    19  pages of paper found in the Auschwitz museum and in the
    20  Moscow archives. I am trying to summarize at this stage
    21  what the position is.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: On which case?
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: On the case that that was a homicidal gas chamber.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I think these are the principal — these are people
    25  who basically give us the texture, who have describe the
    26  operation in some detail. One probably could have found

    .           P-68

      1  —-
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: If we can fault them in any significant way, if we can
      3  punch a hole in their testimony, if I can put it like
      4  that, then of course that rather collapses the entire
      5  value of the rest of their testimony.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think that is necessarily the case, but I am not
      7  a professional judge. I am an historian. Some of their
      8  testimony will be absolutely correct and there will be
      9  always some testimony where they are maybe confused. But
    10  I think that Faurisson’s theory that, if you punch one
    11  hole in the testimony, all of testimony becomes irrelevant
    12  I think is an irresponsible way to work with the
    13  testimony.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let Mr Faurisson fight his own battles.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But what you said was quite literally a quotation from Mr
    16  Faurisson. It is his thesis, his original thesis.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It may be his thesis, I am sure. It is such an
    18  obvious thesis that I appreciate that the Holocaust
    19  historians had maximum difficulty with it. If there are
    20  no holes in that roof now and we can satisfy the court
    21  that there were never any holes in that roof, then that
    22  demolishes the eyewitnesses and thereby demolishes the
    23  story of the homicidal gas chamber, because there is no
    24  other evidence. Even if I am wrong on that, as we say, in
    25  the alternative, I have justifiable reason for maintaining
    26  the position I did and it was not perverse to adopt the

    .           P-69

      1  position I did.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not fighting this case so I cannot comment on that.

    Section 70.03 to 96.12

      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we proceed now to Mr Tauber? How big does Mr Tauber
      4  rank in your list of witnesses? Is he near the top in
      5  importance?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He is a very important witness.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: So straight away Mr Tauber of course said that he saw the
      8  people pouring the cyanide in through the imaginary holes
      9  in the roof. He did not say imaginary but —-
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us look at the text.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: We read what he said. I think you will find it in your
    12  report Part 1 (iv) page 73 of your report.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think your pagination is different from
    14  everyone else, Mr Irving.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have it right here. It is page 191.
    16  MR IRVING:  Thank you very much. He says here right at the
    17  top:
    18  ” Through the window of the incineration room, I
    19  observed how the Zyklon was poured into the gas chamber.
    20  … They took the cans of Zyklon from the car and put
    21  them beside the small chimneys [the things that you
    22  described on the roof]…. Then he closed the orifice with
    23  a concrete cover.”
    24  Was this the man who said he needed two hands to
    25  lift the concrete cover, that he saw the people using two
    26  hands to lift the concrete cover? This is Tauber, is it

    .           P-70

      1  not?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not remember that he said it but, if you can point to
      3  the passage —-
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: We went through the Tauber evidence in some detail
      5  yesterday.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We did not discuss the thing on top, people manipulating
      7  those covers.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. If he talks of concrete covers with two handles,
      9  does this not rather contradict the story given by other
    10  eyewitnesses even of there being wooden lids on these
    11  openings, Holzblenden in German? They have not got their
    12  story straight, these eyewitnesses. They know a bit about
    13  the holes in the roof but they do not know quite what the
    14  covers were. They must assume that there were covers
    15  because otherwise the rain would get in. So one says
    16  concrete and another one says wood.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you want to introduce that, I would be happy to comment
    18  on that. I do not even know which eyewitness you are
    19  talking about right now.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Tauber.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, the ones who say they were wooden, not
    22  concrete. That is what you mean, is it not?
    23  MR IRVING:  My Lord, we will probably stumble across them in
    24  the course of time.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not a very good way of
    26  cross-examining, if I may say so. Are you able to refer

    .           P-71

      1  to them now?
      2  MR IRVING:  Not at this instant in time, my Lord.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.
      4  MR IRVING:  If I was surrounded by research assistants, no
      5  doubt I would be bombarded with copies of that very
      6  document. Does Tauber not say –, I refer you now to
      7  Pressac page 483. Do you have a copy of Pressac?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship has the tab of Pressac at the back
    10  of H 2(vi).
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not have H 2(vi).
    12  MR RAMPTON:  Then somebody will get it for your Lordship.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, I do not have the supporting
    14  documents in court.
    15  MR RAMPTON:  I will find your Lordship the tab. It is tab 5.
    16  It folds out because Pressac is an oblong book. What has
    17  been copied here is just the Tauber chapter, I think.
    18  MR IRVING:  Would you agree, reading this very detailed
    19  account, Professor, that it is likely that, when Tauber
    20  made this deposition to Jan Sehn, I believe it was made,
    21  they had in front of them the architectural blueprints to
    22  jog his memory?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We had this yesterday, that point.
    24  MR IRVING:  Very well. I am just drawing attention to how
    25  detailed it was. Yet he says that on either side of these
    26  pillars, the central support pillars, there were four

    .           P-72

      1  others, two on each side. Now He is relying on his memory
      2  —-
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are you now?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We are now back in the gas chamber? Where are we at page
      5  483? OK. We are at the top of 484, the first column to
      6  the left.
      7  MR IRVING:  Thank you very much.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got the pagination so there is no
      9  way I am going to find this.
    10  MR IRVING:  It is over the page, the page beginning with the
    11  words “middle of its length”.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I just do not have page numbers, that is the
    13  problem. They have all been cut off.
    14  MR IRVING:  I will read it out. It says, “On other side of
    15  these pillars there were four others, C1 to C4, two on
    16  each side”. Mr Pressac, who is quite an expert on this,
    17  says that Mr Tauber is mistaken, this arrangement is found
    18  only in the gas chamber of crematorium (iii). He is
    19  confusing things, is he not?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Pressac?
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: No. Mr Tauber is confusing things.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I know that Mr Pressac thinks that. I do not agree with
    23  Mr Pressac. There is no evidence at all that Pressac is
    24  right on this issue.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: That Pressac is sometimes wrong, in other words?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Oh, yes. Pressac is sometimes wrong. I have had my

    .           P-73

      1  quarrels with Pressac in the past.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: He says, and I am quoting again, “The gas chamber had no
      3  water supply of its own”.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Where are we now?
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: I only have extracts, unfortunately. Further down that
      6  same column, Pressac says that three taps were in fact
      7  installed in the room, according to the drawing?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am just trying to find this thing.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: According to the inventory.
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I see the gas chambers, no water supply and so on, it is
    11  around two inches from the bottom, and the first column,
    12  the same column where the pillars were described.
    13  MR IRVING:  Yes.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not following why that is a criticism of
    15  Tauber at the moment.
    16  MR IRVING:  Well, he has made another error.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is a little note. It is followed by a little note
    18  which says —-
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Saying they were later taken out?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, so we do not know which day or date Tauber was
    21  referring to.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You yourself have confirmed that at the end of 1943,
    23  I believe, the gas chamber was divided into two by a brick
    24  wall?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: So the small transports could be handled. Mr Tauber

    .           P-74

      1  confirmed this. He is the source of that information, is
      2  he not?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. There is also a Greek. Actually, in my report I
      4  mention a Greek Jew who was transported from Seloniki, who
      5  actually mentions also, he was quite specific in his
      6  description of that division of the gas chamber.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Another eyewitness?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, another eyewitness.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is there any trace of that division in the ruins?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: You cannot see that. That is the problem because the roof
    11  has collapsed on the floor of the gas chamber.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It would not make much sense, would it, to all the
    13  bodies that far because this small transports were gassed
    14  in the chamber furthest from the entrance, so the bodies
    15  would have been pulled the whole way down. Would that not
    16  have made gassing of large numbers like 2,000 at a time
    17  very difficult?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you have the small chamber at the back, you would gas
    19  fewer people and, in fact, as we have seen in the Olaire
    20  drawing, it actually provides an opportunity for the
    21  so-called dentists among the sonderkommando and the people
    22  who cut the hair to actually do their work downstairs and
    23  not in the incineration room, as was usually the custom.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: He also describes, does he not, the crematorium chimneys
    25  smoking?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I presume that is crematorium chimney smoke, indeed, yes.

    .           P-75

      1  I would like to see it but I assume on your authority that
      2  the crematorium chimneys do smoke, yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: From your memory, presumably you have read Mr Tauber’s
      4  testimony in detail, is it right that he describes it as
      5  being possible to cremate five or eight bodies
      6  simultaneously in one furnace?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that we can probably go to the passage itself.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, he does say that, does he not?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us go to the passage, because he is very particular in
    10  his description.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is this in your report at page 194?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 194 yes.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot see the bit at the moment.
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 194. We go to 192 and 193. I can read the whole passage,
    15  or Mr Irving can read the passage, starting: “The
    16  procedure was to put the first corpse with the feet
    17  towards the muffle, back down and face up”. Then he gives
    18  a very detailed description of that procedure.
    19  MR IRVING:  So he is the source of the information that five to
    20  eight bodies were cremated simultaneously or quickly?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I think that Mr Hirst also talks about that, that
    22  more bodies are inserted in the muffles at one time.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does Mr Tauber also describe the bodies of those gassed as
    24  being red with green spots?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do remember that he gives a quite a longish description
    26  of the —-

    .           P-76

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you remember it, there is no need to look it up.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not any more remember if it is Tauber or any other
      3  sonderkommandos.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you know what a body that has been gassed with hydrogen
      5  cyanide looks like, what colour it turns?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I understand it starts to look slightly reddish.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Like a radish? Red with green spots?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, reddish.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: With green spots. Would you think that that is possibly
    10  the victim of some epidemic?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not an epidemiologist. I do not know how people who
    12  have died from typhus or other epidemics look like.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Cyanide victims do not go red with green spots, not if
    14  they have just been gassed. If they have been left lying
    15  around for a few days, perhaps they might.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have no comment on that. I cannot possibly comment on
    17  that.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does he describe a prisoner being dowsed with naphtha
    19  which is a flammable substance?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is Tauber still?
    21  MR IRVING:  This is Tauber, yes, and then being burned alive in
    22  a crematorium muffle, and then they let him out and he ran
    23  around screaming?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He has a particular incident. Again, I do not know where
    25  it is.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it in your report?

    .           P-77

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is in my report, yes.
      2  MR IRVING:  Does he describe another prisoner being chased into
      3  a pool of boiling human fat, which sounds like an almost
      4  Talmudic kind of quotation.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not quite sure, Mr Irving, perhaps you
      6  can explain to me. You are putting various things which
      7  you say Mr Tauber described.
      8  MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord, the inference is —-
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  With what object? Are you suggesting all of
    10  this is invention?
    11  MR IRVING:  I am not suggesting they are all invention, but
    12  they test a reasonable historian’s credulity, and one
    13  should therefore be inclined to subject this particular
    14  testimony to closer than normal scrutiny, if I can put it
    15  like that.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us ask Professor van Pelt what he makes
    17  of that suggestion.
    18  MR IRVING:  I have two more of these episodes to put to him.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Put two more and then answer the general
    20  question, would you?
    21  MR IRVING:  The prisoner was chased into a pool of boiling
    22  human fat — does he describe that?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, if you give me the passage, I will—-
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: He is your principal eyewitness, or one of your principal
    25  eye witnesses.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He wants the reference, Mr Irving, which is

    .           P-78

      1  not unreasonable. I am trying to find it and I must say I
      2  cannot.
      3  MR IRVING:  Certainly if I had read the Tauber report, I would
      4  be able to say yes or no to that.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am looking in Professor van Pelt’s report.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, we are in a court of law here and whatever
      7  I say does matter. It means that I need to respond to the
      8  exact quotation of what Tauber says, and then I am
      9  prepared to say yes or nay.
    10  MR IRVING:  Very well. We will look up the exact quotation in
    11  time for lunch. Let us proceed then to the final one. Do
    12  you agree that Mr Tauber also attests to the figure of 4
    13  million killed in Auschwitz?
    14  MR RAMPTON:  We thought we had found the passage in question.
    15  It is page 190 of the report.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
    17  MR IRVING:  Yes. This is the problem with writing with word
    18  processors. Things tend to go through the finger tips
    19  rather than through the memory and brain. In other words,
    20  he does have this rather lurid description of the man —-
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I do not deny that I put this in, and I do
    22  remember the incident, but I do not want to comment on a
    23  very general description you give of the incident when
    24  I do not have the text in front of me.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I read it to you? It is on page 190 of your own
    26  report. “When the shifts were changing over, they had

    .           P-79

      1  found a gold watch and wedding ring on one of the
      2  labourers, a man Wolbrom called Lejb. This Jew, aged
      3  about twenty, was dark and had a number of one hundred
      4  thousand and something. All the Sonderkommando working in
      5  the crematorium were assembled, and before their eyes he
      6  was hung, with his hands tied behind his back, from an
      7  iron bar above the firing hearths. He remained in this
      8  position for about an hour, then after untying his hands
      9  and feet, they threw him in a cold crematorium furnace.
    10  Gasoline was poured into the lower ash bin… And lit.
    11  The flames reached the muffle where this Lejb was
    12  imprisoned. A few minutes later, they opened the door and
    13  the condemned man emerged and ran off, covered in burns.
    14  … This fat was poured over the corpses to accelerate
    15  their combustion. This poor devil was pulled out of the
    16  fat still alive and then shot.”
    17  Does that sound to like a completely neutral and
    18  plausible account of an atrocity?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Leave aside “neutral”. That is an unhelpful
    20  word. Do you think it is plausible?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    22  MR IRVING:  Very well. The figure of 4 million to which Tauber
    23  attested, do you call that also plausible at the time he
    24  testified?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The figure of 4 million? Not, because nowadays we have
    26  very detailed information on what actually the figure is

    .           P-80

      1  and it is more likely to have been around a million.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: So would you agree that this is an example of what I call
      3  cross pollination? He hits on the figure of 4 million
      4  because that was the current figure at that time?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do think that we should look at how the figure of 4
      6  million originally arose.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So do I. Where do we find that, Mr Irving?
      8  If we do not find it in the report perhaps you could just
      9  quote in its context where one gets that estimate.
    10  MR IRVING:  My Lord, with respect, if the witness agrees that
    11  Tauber attested to 4 million, we are only concerned with
    12  the figure.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He has made the point, which I think is a
    14  fair one, that he wants to see in what context and on what
    15  basis that 4 million figure was arrived at by Tauber.
    16  That is a reasonable thing for him to want to do, and I am
    17  simply asking you to identify where one finds it.
    18  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I will have to adjourn that piece of
    19  information, the page number, until after lunch. If it is
    20  substantial, we can come back to it and retake it.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can anyone on the Defendants side find that
    22  page?
    23  MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I can point to the page. It is page 178.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of your report?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 178 of my report, which goes back to Pressac 501. What he

    .           P-81

      1  says is that he came to this figure on the basis of
      2  conversations he had with various prisoners. Yes? If you
      3  allow me, I can probably quote the whole thing. I give
      4  the full quotation now from Pressac on page 501:
      5  “I imagine that during the period in which
      6  I worked in the crematorium as a member of the
      7  sondercommando a total of about 2 million people were
      8  gassed. During my time in Auschwitz I was able to talk to
      9  various prisoners who had worked in the crematorium and
    10  the bunkers before my arrival. They told me that I was
    11  not among the first to do this work and that before I came
    12  another 2 million had already been gassed in bunkers 1 and
    13  2 and crematorium (i). Adding up the total number of
    14  people gassed in Auschwitz amounted to about 4 million”.
    15  That is what he says.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Half of it comes from other people?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Half of it comes from other people.
    18  MR IRVING:  This information is being taken by Judge Jan Sehn
    19  in whom you repose great trust?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I think that Sehn did a marvellous investigation.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell us something about these depositions were
    22  taken in communist countries? Would the man sit down with
    23  a pencil and paper and retire to a room and write it all
    24  out himself, or would it be summarized by the lawyers and
    25  he would be asked to sign it.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know what happened. I already told you

    .           P-82

      1  yesterday. I do not know what happened in that room where
      2  Jan Sehn was interviewing Mr Tauber. I know there were
      3  witnesses there because the original report mentions other
      4  people being present. That is all I know.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: If I can just leap sideways to the name of Rudolf Hirst,
      6  the kommandant of Auschwitz, is it right that he was
      7  interrogated several times at Nuremberg?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is right.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: And that, as a result of these interrogations, a
    10  deposition was taken or put before him for signature?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is right.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you have now read these interrogations, I believe?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have read a copy of the interrogations, yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: The verbatim interrogation transcripts?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I do not think I have read every one of them but, I
    16  have read them in general.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you managed to form an impression there of how the
    18  Americans obtained depositions from their witnesses?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Maybe you can lead me on that, because I do not exactly
    20  know where —-
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would I be right in saying that, on the basis of the
    22  interrogations, the Americans would draw up a deposition,
    23  confront the witness with it, and say, “Sign here”?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot conclude that on the basis of the interrogations
    25  I read.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.

    .           P-83

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Certainly not.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, have you left Tauber now.
      3  MR IRVING:  I believe we have just one more point on Tauber and
      4  that is to look at page 481 of Pressac, where we do have
      5  four photographs of Pressac posing in various costumes,
      6  post war photographs taken by the Polish authorities who
      7  obviously regarded him as a star witness.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is Heinrich Tauber?
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You said Pressac.
    10  MR IRVING:  My mistake. There are four photographs of him
    11  posing in the camp costume.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the significance of that?
    13  MR IRVING:  That he was a star witness, my Lord, of the Polish
    14  prosecution authorities, he was being subjected to what we
    15  call now photo ops, and they were relying on him very
    16  heavily, and that no doubt there was a certain amount of
    17  privilege being granted to him by the Polish authorities
    18  in the way that he was cooperating with them.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So he was making it up to express his
    20  gratitude to the Polish authorities?
    21  MR IRVING:  It is not an unknown phenomenon for witnesses to
    22  make things up. Your Lordship will probably recall that,
    23  at the end of World War II, the whole of Europe was in a
    24  very, very sorry state. You did not have food supplies,
    25  there were no consumer goods and this was something with
    26  which the people who were in authority, whether they be

    .           P-84

      1  Poles or Russians or Americans or British, were able to
      2  barter.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  May I put the general question to Professor
      4  van Pelt which I invited you to ask a little while ago?
      5  That is this. Are there aspects of Tauber’s testimony or
      6  account which cause you to doubt his plausibility?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that Tauber is an absolutely amazingly good
      8  witness. I find his powers of observations very precise
      9  in general. I do not have any general reason to doubt his
    10  credibility as a witness.
    11  MR IRVING:  May I ask a question on that, my Lord?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course, yes. I was only asking the
    13  question that seemed to me to be need to be asked.
    14  MR IRVING:  Would your impression be, or would it not, that, at
    15  the time he was being questioned by the Polish authorities
    16  for the purpose of providing this deposition, he was being
    17  confronted or furnished with drawings, documents and so on
    18  to help jog his memory. His apparent precision may have
    19  come from this kind of prompting by the Polish
    20  authorities.
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is possible indeed but let us now just go back for a
    22  moment. Let us assume this happened, Tauber would have
    23  been confronted with blueprints which, sadly to say, for
    24  40 years after the these blueprints came in the public
    25  realm, most people were unable to interpret. These are
    26  very technical documents. These documents are not easy to

    .           P-85

      1  interpret. It is not so that, if the blueprints had been
      2  there, and a man who is not an architect or even, for that
      3  matter an historian who teaches in an architecture school,
      4  when they are confronted with that, it is not that they
      5  immediately are able to make up a story which matches
      6  point for point information in the blueprint of a very
      7  technical and specialist nature.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: But they would know, for example, the difference of left
      9  from right, would they not? If for example they described
    10  a staircase being on one side of the building, or the
    11  rutsche, the slide, being on one side of the building when
    12  the drawing showed it on the other or vice verse, if they
    13  showed it on the side that the drawing showed it when in
    14  fact it was not built that way?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: One of the things we have to remember is that Tauber gives
    16  a description of crematorium (ii). It is a general
    17  description. However, sonderkommandos of crematorium (ii)
    18  and (iii) had access to both buildings. Sonderkommandos
    19  have testified to the fact that they lived in these
    20  buildings but they shared facilities. So they would be
    21  allowed to actually cross that little path and go over to
    22  the other crematorium and back. So we have two buildings
    23  which are mirror images of each other, which left and
    24  right are completely turned upside-down, which both are
    25  used by the same people, but otherwise are identical. So
    26  if at a certain movement he gets left or right wrong.

    .           P-86

      1  I would not at that moment give such incredible
      2  evidentiary value to that, that he is making it up, or
      3  that he is totally confused. It is simply that these
      4  buildings were identical except for the left and the right
      5  of everything.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: In your original book you made one claim about the
      7  position of the rutsche in a building which you then
      8  reversed in your report. Is that correct?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I do not think so.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: You stated that it was on one side of the building on the
    11  drawings, and that in fact it was somewhere else.
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am happy to consider this and to discuss it with you,
    13  but again show me the passage in the book and show me the
    14  passage in the report. I will deal with it then.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: This has all taken rather longer than I had hoped. I am
    16  sure his Lordship is getting impatient and we should move
    17  on. Can we move on now to the witness Pery Broad?
    18  Summing up on Tauber, one point, can I get you to make the
    19  following statement? Tauber described the cyanide being
    20  poured into the gas chamber of crematorium No. (ii)
    21  through holes in the roof. That is correct?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, that is correct.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: If (and this is a hypothetical; it is one of Mr Rampton’s
    24  if’s) it should turn out there were never any such holes
    25  in the roof, then Tauber has lied, has he not?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Then he would have lied, yes.

    .           P-87

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you. We now move on to Mr Pery Broad. P-E-R-Y
      2  Broad. This is, of course, a more general eyewitness
      3  because he is also of relevance to Auschwitz rather than
      4  Birkenhau, am I right?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Most of his testimony on at least gassings relates to
      6  Sturmlager. And he only observed from a distance what was
      7  happening in Birkenhau.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very briefly we are going to deal with Mr Broad. Pery
      9  Broad was employed by the British as an interrogator in a
    10  British camp; is that correct?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would wonder if you can be more precise about what
    12  “employs” means in this case before I can say yes or no.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would it be reasonable — your Lordship wished to say
    14  something, no — to say that, in view of his special
    15  position within this prison camp, he was given special
    16  favours by the British, whether they be in the form of
    17  payment or accommodation or clothing or food or money?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He was an inmate who was used in the inmate administration
    19  of the camp.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell me what happened at the end to Pery Broad
    21  back in the 1960s?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Pery Broad was tried in Frankfurt and he —-
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: As a war criminal?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: As a war criminal.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Eventually, he was put on trial by the Germans, is that
    26  correct?

    .           P-88

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He was put on trial by the Germans. I think he was
      2  convicted to two years or two-and-a-half years in prison.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I right in saying that he was convicted for the war
      4  crime of having participated in shootings at block 11 in
      5  Auschwitz?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know exactly what the judgment, what were the
      7  reasons for his conviction, what crime he was convicted
      8  for and what crime he was not.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, your eyewitness was a murderer who was
    10  going at some time to be prosecuted for war crimes by the
    11  Allies, quite rightly, and he had bought a certain amount
    12  of breathing space — is this not a reasonable presumption
    13  — by testifying in various cases that the British were
    14  bringing in Northern Germany?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us go back to the situation in a British internment or
    16  in a prison of war camp in, I think it was, Meklenberg,
    17  Northern Germany, very far away from Auschwitz in May
    18  1945. If Mr Broad had not come forward to say he had been
    19  in Auschwitz, I think nobody would ever have found out
    20  because many SS men at that time were, basically, sitting
    21  in allied prison of war camps and were sitting there until
    22  they were released. So, certainly, Mr Broad, if he had
    23  not volunteered the information about Auschwitz, I think
    24  would have had anything to fear at that time because there
    25  were in that camp no surviving inmates from Auschwitz who
    26  could have identified him.

    .           P-89

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, the British had ways of identifying people. We had
      2  lists of names, we had the code breaking intercepts and so
      3  on. We knew who was who.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Broad was, as far as we know, a Rottenfuhrer. I do not
      5  think his name was very high on the list of people the
      6  British were looking for.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: The fact remains that he had a guilty conscious because he
      8  had participated in shootings in Auschwitz concentration
      9  camp, and eventually he was put on trial, not by the
    10  British, but by the Germans. The British treated him in
    11  some special way, is this correct?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He was, he became an interpreter in the camp and then at a
    13  certain moment when he gave his evidence it was recognized
    14  that he was a very important witness.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. He is one of your eyewitnesses for the existence of
    16  the pipes on the roofs, admittedly at a distance, but he
    17  described, if I remember his testimony in the Tesh case
    18  correctly, these pipes on the roof being opened and people
    19  pouring stuff in. He described six of them rather than
    20  four, is that correct?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Again I think we should look at the material that is in my
    22  report, but I think at least I can say right now that what
    23  I remember that in the Tesh case he refers to a gassing
    24  happened in crematorium (i), that the particular incident
    25  you refer to. But again I think we should, before we have
    26  a final conclusion on that, look at the actual evidence

    .           P-90

      1  given in the Tesh case because I thought it was
      2  crematorium No. (i) he was talking about.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it known to you that Pery Broad was a Brazilian
      4  national?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I know that.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, he was not a German national, he was a
      7  Brazilian national. Was Brazil fighting on the side of
      8  the Allies in World War II?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that ultimately Brazil joined, yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: And yet he was wearing the uniform of the SS, of an enemy
    11  power and he was committing these crimes in the uniform of
    12  an enemy power?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would like to remind the judge that many people in the
    14  SS were actually Vorstattue who had passports from
    15  different countries, from countries other than Germany.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The significance of the fact he was Brazilian
    17  is escaping me at the moment, but…
    18  MR IRVING:  I was about to say, would not the fact that he was
    19  a member of an allied nation fighting in German uniform
    20  have put him in precisely the same category as William
    21  Joyce or John Amery, and have exposed him to being put on
    22  trial in Brazil for treason? Was this not another threat
    23  that was hanging over his head at the time he was in
    24  captivity?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot possibly comment on that.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you do agree that he was technically committing

    .           P-91

      1  treason by fighting in the uniform of an enemy power?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that Mr Broad in May 1945 probably had other
      3  things on his mind than that particular issue of if Brazil
      4  was going to ask for his extradition.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Do you use the statement of a witness called Hans Stark as
      6  proof of the gassings?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have the statement in my report, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. In section 9, the Leuchter report of your report —
      9  I am afraid again I do not know the page number — you
    10  quoted from it and I will quote the passage that you have
    11  used, in your language: “As early as autumn 1941,
    12  gassings were carried out in a room in the small
    13  crematorium which had been prepared for this purpose. The
    14  room held 200 to 250 people”?
    15  MR RAMPTON:  514, my Lord.
    16  MR IRVING:  Thank you very much. I am indebted. I will begin
    17  again.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We are talking about Stark now, the Stark testimony?
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: The testimony of the eyewitness Hans Stark: “As early as
    20  autumn 1941″ — this goes more to the question of your
    21  treatment of sources rather than crematorium No. (ii).
    22  “As early as autumn 1941 gassings were carried out in a
    23  room in the small crematorium which had been prepared for
    24  this purpose. The room held 200 to 250 people, had a
    25  higher than average ceiling, no windows only a specially
    26  insulated door with bolts like those of an airtight

    .           P-92

      1  door.” Is that your translation of that document?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, this is my translation — no, this is actually an
      3  existing translation. If we go to the quote, we see it
      4  was done by Deborah Burnstone.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Deborah?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Burnstone.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does it also give the original German of the text?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, it is not.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you take any trouble to ascertain the original German
    10  of that text?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I did not.

    Section 96.13-110.2

    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: If I tell that you the word “airtight”, the word
    13  translated as “airtight door”, in the original German is
    14  Luftschutzer, is that how you would have translated it?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: An airtight door as a Luftschutzer door?
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: In the original German of Hans Stark it is “Luftschutzer”
    17  which has been translated —-
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you show me the passage, Mr Irving, I am happy to
    19  confirm or not that, indeed, that is the way —-
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am putting one word to you. The original German says
    21  not “airtight door” in English, but “Luftschutzer” in
    22  German. Would you tell the court what “Luftschutzer”
    23  translates into in English?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Airtight door”, I would have thought?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: “Luftschutz” in general, “luft” means “air raid”.
    26  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Air protection.

    .           P-93

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Luftschutz —-
      2  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: “Luftschutz”, yes, I see.
      3  MR IRVING:  Is an air raid and air raid [German], my Lord?
      4  Now, either inadvertently or deliberately, somebody and
      5  you say it is Burnstone has mistranslated that word from a
      6  totally harmless and, in fact, significant “air raid door”
      7  into the rather more sinister “airtight door”?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In the context of quite a sinister description, I would
      9  say.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, look at the context.
    11  MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Look at the context. As I understand it, she
    13  actually said “like those of an airtight door”, but this
    14  is in the context of gassings in 1941 and Zyklon-B being
    15  poured through holes in the roof.
    16  MR IRVING:  My Lord, there are any number of eyewitness
    17  statements like that which are in the report. I am just
    18  looking here at the quality of the translation which is
    19  frequently tilted against or tilted in favour of the
    20  Holocaust definition. Your Lordship will remember that
    21  I have been trying to establish the case that these
    22  sinister door scattered around the camps at Auschwitz and
    23  Birkenhau were, in fact, provisions for the coming air
    24  raids and the Germans anticipated there were going to be
    25  gas attacks as well, as, indeed, did we, British, with our
    26  air raid shelters.

    .           P-94

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand the suggestion, but what you
      2  cannot possibly say, Mr Irving, is that Hans Stark is
      3  describing an air raid shelter on the basis of this
      4  passage, can you?
      5  MR IRVING:  I am concentrating here only on the door, my Lord.
      6  I have no other means of attacking the integrity of Hans
      7  Stark as a witness. I am looking here at the rather
      8  slipshod use of the word “airtight door” when the original
      9  is quite clearly referred to as looking just like an air
    10  raid shelter door of which we will be producing
    11  photographs to the court later on.
    12  This is of significance because the Defence rely
    13  on a number of photographs of doors found scattered around
    14  the compound of Auschwitz and Birkenhau, and we will show
    15  that these are standard German air raid shelter doors
    16  complete with peep holes.
    17  I think this is the time I would ask your
    18  Lordship to look at the little bundle of five pages of
    19  documents I produced this morning.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, certainly.
    21  MR IRVING:  I have not yet handed it to your Lordship. It is
    22  here.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are we going to put this? Shall we put
    24  it in —-
    25  MR IRVING:  J, I think, my Lord.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — J?

    .           P-95

      1  MR IRVING:  I have started a new numbering system which will go
      2  all the way through with consistent consecutive numbers
      3  from now on.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I gathered that was being done. That is very
      5  helpful. We got as far, I think, as about 14 maybe.
      6  MR IRVING:  We started with 00, unfortunately.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am only up to 11, so something has gone
      8  wrong.
      9  MR IRVING:  The 0 now comes after the 11. The one I have given
    10  you should come after 11, my Lord.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to put it for the time being —
    12  actually it is 12. Yes?

    MR IRVING (To the witness):

    These are three or four Germans
    14  documents. They are significant because they refer to
    15  trips made from Auschwitz to Dessau to pick up Zyklon-B,
    16  truck loads of Zyklon-B. Are you familiar with this kind
    17  of signal or radio message?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Well, I am not familiar with this particular one.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Not with this particular one?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have seen — I absolutely do not doubt, I do not doubt
    21  the — you know, the integrity of the thing.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you will look at page 1 rather than the first one, page
    23  0, if you look at page 1 as numbered at the bottom, you
    24  will see the signal at the bottom looks rather sinister,
    25  does it not? I have translated it on page 2. It is a
    26  message from Berlin to the Kommandant of Auschwitz,

    .           P-96

      1  effectively, giving driving permission. Every time they
      2  made a journey by truck because of the shortage of fuel,
      3  they had to have permission from Berlin. “Permission
      4  herewith given for one five tonne truck with trailer to
      5  Dessau and back for the purpose of fetching materials for
      6  the Jew resettlement. This permit is to be handed to the
      7  driver to take with him”. It is signed Levehenshal who is
      8  at Berlin still at that time. What interpretation would
      9  you put on that message, October 2nd, 1942?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That a truck, a five tonne truck, is sent to Dessau to
    11  collect material for the Jews’ settlement. Dessau, as we
    12  know from other telegrams and as we know also from the
    13  rest of the record, was the location where the Zyklon-B
    14  was being produced in one of the factories. So, the
    15  context of what we know also of the other messages shows
    16  that this is most likely a permission to collect in a five
    17  tonne truck Zyklon-B from the original manufacturer.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: In fact, more than five tonnes because they are taking a
    19  trailer as well, are they not?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: With a trailer, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: So they are collecting over five tonnes — it would be a
    22  reasonable assumption, based on this document, that they
    23  are collecting over five tonnes of some material which is
    24  probably Zyklon-B cyanide pellets?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I mean, I do not know exactly the weight, but
    26  I think that in the document I have written (of which you

    .           P-97

      1  have a copy) on your suggestion more or less that I have
      2  dealt with this matter about how much the truck would
      3  have, most likely would have carried.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is specified clearly in this report, in this telegram,
      5  that it is for the Jew resettlement, for the
      6  Judenumsiedlung?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: For the Judenumsiedlung, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: That makes it even more sinister, does it not?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Given the fact what the word “Judenumsiedlung” had come to
    10  mean in 1942, yes, this would be quite a sinister
    11  document.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you now turn over the page to page 3 which you can
    13  take it is a translation of the upper telegram on page 1?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am sorry?
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 3 at the foot of — you have no page 3?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have page 3, but I look at No. 1.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: At No. 1, the upper telegram.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is a translation of the upper telegram No. 1?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, OK.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is from Gluks(?). Who is Gluks?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Gluks is the Chief of the Inspectorate for concentration
    23  camps.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: He has the rank of something like a Brigadier General,
    25  does he not?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.

    .           P-98

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: This again is a driving permit sent to Auschwitz
      2  concentration camp.
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Answering a request: “Permission herewith given for one
      5  automobile”, a car, “to go from Auschwitz to
      6  Lischmannstadt and back on September 16th 1942 for the
      7  purpose of inspecting the experimental station for field
      8  kitchens for Operation Reinhard. This permit is to be
      9  handed to the driver to take with him”?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think your translation is wrong there, Mr Irving.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Tell —-
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The “Dei Feldofen” in this case are “field ovens”, and we
    13  know there is quite a documentation, not only eyewitness
    14  testimony, but quite an extensive documentation on this
    15  particular trip which was made by Kommandant Hirst and
    16  which also Mr Dejaco and Mr Hoessler, all were included
    17  and they were inspecting actually, they were going to
    18  Lischmannstadt to see the extermination site there, to
    19  actually look at the incineration grid, the incineration
    20  installation created by Studattenfuhrer Bloebel as part of
    21  Action 1005, to create a way to get rid of corpses which
    22  had been buried as a result of the killings in Chelmo. So
    23  this has nothing to do with kitchens, these Feldofen,
    24  but with incineration ovens to burn, to incinerate,
    25  corpse.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Field kitchens” would be “Feldkuchens”, would it not?

    .           P-99

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That is more likely, yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: So your submission is that this is a reference to going
      3  there to visit some kind of improvised grating, fire
      4  grating, of some kind —-
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: — on a large scale?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They are actually — we have Mr Dejaco, the chief of
      8  design in the Zentrale Bau, he actually made a sketch also
      9  of this incineration installation. It had been developed
    10  by Bloebel who was an architect in order to empty the mass
    11  graves which had been created in Chelmo as a result of the
    12  gassings there.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Bloebel had the very distasteful task of emptying out the
    14  mass graves and cremating the —-
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, he had the — it was called Action 1005. He was
    16  going around sites where mass graves had been reacted in
    17  order to take out the corpses and to incinerate them so
    18  they were going to be no traces.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Why would it include the words an “experimental station”
    20  for the —-
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Because they were just developing the technology to do
    22  this.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does it take much technology to make a fire in the open on
    24  a grating?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The Germans had not done this before yet. Bloebel was the
    26  person who developed the technology. Until then, the

    .           P-100

      1  Germans had not yet emptied mass graves and incinerated
      2  corpses of people who had been buried for some time. We
      3  know that afterwards this, indeed, is going to happen in
      4  Auschwitz within weeks, the same procedure start to be
      5  applied in Auschwitz to all the people who are buried in
      6  the field of ashes next to bunkers 1 and — bunker 2 in
      7  this case.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: When I see the word “Versthutzstation”, in my knowledge of
      9  German documents, I usually think of a place like
    10  Panamunda or Passodena. I do not think of somebody
    11  mucking around with fire grates in a field?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not follow you, Mr Irving.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: The word “Versthutzstation” does not tend to convey what
    14  you suggest in your evidence. That is all that we can
    15  usefully derive from that.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that maybe even if I have these documents on the
    17  trip to Chelmo. It is very well documented. Apart from
    18  that, Dejaco was questioned on that in detail during his
    19  trial, and he confirmed what you probably would call the
    20  very sinister interpretation of all these documents, that,
    21  indeed, yes, he was there present with Bloebel at the
    22  incineration site.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: And yet he was, of course, acquitted, as we have heard
    24  yesterday.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: He was acquitted of the murder of one inmate who he was
    26  alleged to have drowned at a building site near

    .           P-101

      1  crematorium (ii).
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: And not charged with any further crimes after that, not
      3  recharged on any other crime?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, he was not, but then we have discussed already the
      5  nature of —-
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, may I just ask you, whilst it
      7  occurs to me, who translated “ofen” as “kitchens”?
      8  MR IRVING:  I did, my Lord. Normally, “field kitchens” is the
      9  only interpretation of [German – document not provided].
    10  I am willing to be lectured by Mr Van Pelt on this
    11  alternative meaning. He claims he has these documents
    12  which bear out his meaning, translation, of the word, and,
    13  of course, I put the original German to him so that he can
    14  correct it if we are wrong.
    15  If I can just finally carry on on that point, if
    16  Dejaco was present on this trip and no consequences flowed
    17  from it in the law courts afterwards, can we draw any
    18  conclusions as to the nature of these pits that were being
    19  excavated or not, these mass graves, what the victims had
    20  died of or had been killed by? I am in your hands here
    21  because I know nothing. You have seen the documents and I
    22  do not.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. I have one of the documents right here in my hand,
    24  so, I mean, I could give it to you, I could quote it,
    25  I could read, because we have the report of the trip of
    26  17th September.

    .           P-102

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not want to spring this document on you, but since
      3  you raised the issue of the significance of it, it gives
      4  actually a description of the thing.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: While you are looking, I can tell my Lord the translation
      6  was actually done at 2 o’clock this morning, so there is
      7  an element of stress.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Thank you.
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think I have not answered the question yet, so maybe
    10  could the question be repeated because I —-
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall I repeat it? Can we draw any
    12  conclusion as to the nature of these pits that were being
    13  excavated or not, these mass graves, what the victims had
    14  died of or been killed by? In other words, could you tell
    15  whether they had been gassed or whether they had been shot
    16  or whatever?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: These people had gassed in gas vans.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Why do you say that?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We know that on the basis of the report created by the
    20  Polish Commission of investigation in 1945, which itself
    21  did a forensic excavation at the site and also took many
    22  testimonies on this. These people who were brought to
    23  Chelmo were Jews from the Lischmannstadt ghetto. They
    24  started in very late 1941 when Germany was being emptied
    25  of Jews. I just want to remind the court, for example,
    26  Berlin was officially Judenreiden in early 1943. When the

    .           P-103

      1  German Jews were transported to the East, one of the
      2  places where they were concentrated was in the Rusch or
      3  Lischmannstadt ghetto. In order to make place for these
      4  people who came in, because it was already terribly
      5  overcrowded, Polish Jews from the Lischmannstadt ghetto
      6  were in early ’42 brought to a little castle near Chelmo.
      7  This castle in Chelmo was a place where they were brought
      8  to this castle and then there were gas vans in that
      9  compound and they were actually walked into gas vans.
    10  There was a description of the actual camouflage way in
    11  which they were brought in there, and then these gas vans
    12  drove from that castle to a forest which was a couple of
    13  miles away. By the time the gas vans arrived at the
    14  forest, all of the people in the back of these gas vans
    15  had died and then they were buried in that forest. So
    16  when the mass graves really had become very large there,
    17  because ultimately the Polish Commission established that
    18  around, I think, 180,000 people were killed in that way at
    19  Chelmno, Bloebel was given the task to start removing the
    20  corpses.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That does not appear to me to have much to do
    22  with the message, the radio message, of 15th September
    23  1942.
    24  MR IRVING:  We are rather branching out into other fields
    25  there?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It has a lot to do with that.

    .           P-104

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is Auschwitz, not Chelmno?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, but the people in Auschwitz at that time, what has
      3  happened is that at bunker 2 at that moment, which had
      4  been in operation since early July, they have been burying
      5  the people next to bunker No. 2. In the meantime, there
      6  is the Himmler visit to Auschwitz and, while there is no
      7  record of it, it is quite likely probably that he said
      8  this burying of people very close to the camp, because
      9  that is actually quite close to Birkenhau, is going to be
    10  an unhealthy business. So what happens then that
    11  immediately — we are talking again at about the month of
    12  August and September when all these big changes are taking
    13  place in Auschwitz. So, in order to take counsel from the
    14  only man who is actually doing the incineration of buried
    15  corpses which is happening in Chelmno with this
    16  Studattenfuhrer Bloebel, the Auschwitz Kommandant, and
    17  this is a very high powered trip, the Kommandant, his
    18  adjutant Hoessler, and the chief designer, who ultimately
    19  must make sense of it on a practical, technological scale,
    20  all go for a whole day to Lischmannstadt, and it is not a
    21  small trip. They need to get special permission for that
    22  (because one always needs special permissions for these
    23  trips) to basically to see what Bloebel is doing there.
    24  Then we have also another German, we have the
    25  original request from Auschwitz to Glucks, we have the
    26  permit now being produced and we have the final result, a

    .           P-105

      1  report of what happened during that trip.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So Lischmannstadt is close to Chelmno?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, Chelmo — I mean, Lischmannstadt is a very big city.
      4  Chelmno is just a hamlet.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what I was missing.
      6  MR IRVING:  Is it your submission, therefore, that this five
      7  tonne truck load of Zyklon-B which was fetched, I think we
      8  agree, the materials, from Dessau to Auschwitz, what was
      9  the five tonne truck of Zyklon-B, what were the materials
    10  to be used for? Just for gassing people?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK, so we finished with this document now on the —-
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, would you answer my question?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I just want to know if I still have to take that into
    14  consideration in the answer or not.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, you do not, no.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are back on the trucks going back and forth between
    18  Auschwitz and Dessau.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The trucks went back and forth to Dessau. They collected
    20  Zyklon-B and Zyklon-B was used in many different ways in
    21  the camp.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: But five tonnes seems an awful lot. That is the point
    23  I am making. Over five tonnes?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But let us remember, just if we talk — we do not talk
    25  about five tonnes Zyklon-B because when we ultimately talk
    26  about the way Zyklon-B is shipped, it is shipped in

    .           P-106

      1  containers and then the containers themselves contain
      2  earth in which the Zyklon-B is —-
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: The largest tin was one kilogram, was it not?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The largest tin was one kilogram, one kilogram of
      5  Zyklon-B, but the original invoices from the shipping of
      6  the Daigash of Zyklon-B always gives the brutto weight —
      7  I mean the gross weight of what a tin is and then
      8  ultimately also the net wet of Zyklon included in that.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: But the Zyklon is the pellets; it is not just the
    10  cyanide?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The pellets too, so in order to — basically, if you get
    12  five tonnes weight of tins with contents, the total weight
    13  actually inside of Zyklon, of hydrogen cyanide, will be
    14  less than a tonne and I can give you the exact figure.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are saying that is the weight of the tin to be taken
    16  into account?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The tin and, of the course, pellets in which the Zyklon
    18  has been taken in, and all that information is available
    19  and I can give it to you if you just give me time to look.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you suggesting that Zyklon is another word
    21  for hydrogen cyanide?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Zyklon is a commercial name for a product —-
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: For the pellet containing the hydrogen cyanide?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Containing the hydrogen cyanide.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are not trying to make out that Zyklon is the hydrogen
    26  cyanide element in the pellets?

    .           P-107

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, it is a commercial name.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: So if five tonnes of pellets were picked up, then it is
      3  five tonnes of tins containing Zyklon-B pellets?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. The truck is not going to carry more than five
      5  tonnes, whatever it is. So, ultimately, the amount of
      6  hydrogen cyanide which actually is carried by this truck
      7  will be closer to because it is more or less, I think
      8  1/5th of the gross weight of a tin is actually hydrogen
      9  cyanide will be closer to a tonne than five tonnes.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, are you putting forward a positive
    11  case as to what the materials for the Jew resettlement
    12  were if they were not Zyklon-B?
    13  MR IRVING:  We are just going to move to document 0, my Lord,
    14  the first document in that next clip.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So that is going to answer the question, is
    16  it?
    17  MR IRVING:  Which I hope will go a long way towards answering
    18  the question. This comes from exactly the same kind of
    19  source. It is the one which the Holocaust historians
    20  never quote. They frequently quote the other two or three
    21  which are in this clip. This is received in Auschwitz on
    22  July 22nd 1942, again from Berlin: “I herewith give
    23  permission for one five tonne truck to drive from
    24  Auschwitz to Dessau and back to fetch gas for the gassing
    25  of the camp to combat the epidemic that has broken out”.
    26  Now you can read that document whichever way you

    .           P-108

      1  wish, my Lord. It is quite possible, of course, that the
      2  Defence will submit that this is just camouflage.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us ask Professor van Pelt.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Absolutely I do not think it is camouflage. I think that
      5  in my book at a certain moment (and Mr Irving picked it
      6  up) I said that in the summer 1942 a lot of Zyklon was
      7  being used in the camp, to indeed, basically, how you call
      8  it, fumigate clothing and barracks because there was an
      9  epidemic.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: We will just remain with this for two or three more
    11  minutes, my Lord.
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But it does not mean it was the exclusive use of Zyklon-B.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Just before the adjournment — this largely ends that
    14  matter — in your section 5 called “Confession”s, you have
    15  reproduced the testimony of a man called Muka, who was the
    16  adjutant of the Kommandant of Auschwitz at this time.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do. Shall we turn to the particular page?
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: These permission slips to dispatch the trucks were
    19  frequently signed by Muka, were they not?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us go to the page. I am happy, I know what you refer
    21  to, statements made in the Frankfurt trial, but I do not
    22  exactly know where it is right now. Do you have a page
    23  number.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Only that it is in (v) “Confessions”. My pagination,
    25  unfortunately —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think, as we have not got the reference to

    .           P-109

      1  hand, shall we deal with that at 2 o’clock?
      2  MR IRVING:  Until 2 o’clock? Very well, my Lord.
      3  <(Luncheon adjournment)

    Part III: Professor van Pelt Cross-Examined by Irving on Auschwitz, afternoon session (110.3 to 215.21)

    Section 110.3 to 128.8

      4  MR IRVING:  My Lord, might I ask that you remind those present
      5  that we are not sitting tomorrow in case some people make
      6  the mistake and come tomorrow and do not realize that we
      7  are not sitting?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are quite right that we are not sitting
      9  tomorrow, but also on Friday, what I would like to do is
    10  perhaps start an half an hour earlier than normal and
    11  probably finish earlier than normal as well, so sit at 10
    12  on Friday. Yes.
    13  MR IRVING:  From Dessau to Auschwitz, my Lord, but before I go
    14  on, can I remark on something in my translation about
    15  field kitchens? Firstly, as your Lordship is aware,
    16  I have never denied the killings in Chelmno and, if those
    17  documents are connected in any way, then I fully accept
    18  that and that is a logical interpretation. Secondly, my
    19  wartime German medical dictionary says “ofen” is a stove.
    20  That is a translation for it. So it is not actually in
    21  the form of a grating which would be gussen in German,
    22  I believe. So I think, although I am quite prepared to
    23  accept Professor van Pelt’s interpretation of that
    24  document, not being aware of the surrounding foliage of
    25  the documents which Professor van Pelt has, this, your
    26  Lordship will appreciate, is rather the position I have

    .           P-110

      1  been in. Some of the documents, I have been aware of the
      2  surrounding document foliage which gives colour to
      3  particular translations. I am perfectly prepared to
      4  accept the interpretation of that word in any case.
      5  We were looking at section 5 called
      6  “confessions” of your report. You quote the testimony
      7  given in a later trial of the man called Mulka, who was on
      8  Hess’s staff, who assigned some of these driving permits.
      9  I do not know the page number.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Perhaps the defendants can help?
    11  MR RAMPTON:  We are going to try.
    12  MR IRVING:  These permits were provided to the prosecution in
    13  the so-called Auschwitz Frankfurt trial.
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have found the thing, by the way. It is page 320 in my
    15  edition.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  514 I was going to offer, but we will try to
    17  look at 320 first.
    18  MR IRVING:  These were submitted as evidence in the Frankfurt
    19  Auschwitz trial and Mulka was cross-examined. The
    20  presiding judge on this occasion asked him about these
    21  slips:
    22  “Accused Mulka, have you signed permissions for
    23  trips to Dessau? (Mulka) I only remember one occasion. A
    24  permission was signed by Glucks and at the left bottom
    25  countersigned by me. It concerned a disinfection means.
    26  (Question) Here it reads ‘For the resettlement of the

    .           P-111

      1  Jews’ — one of documents which I produced, my Lord —
      2  and ‘In confirmation of the copy Mulka’. You knew what
      3  the resettlement of the Jews meant? (Mulka) Yes, that was
      4  known to me. (Q) And what were those materials for the
      5  resettlement of the Jews? (Mulka) (silently) — I am not
      6  sure how one can do that — Yes, raw materials. (Q) All
      7  right then. That was thus Zyklon-B? (Mulka) (even more
      8  silently) Yes, Zyklon-B”.
      9  Of course, that is a rather odd kind of
    10  examination by the presiding judge, is it not, Professor
    11  van Pelt? You would have expected, certainly if
    12  Mr Justice Gray had been presiding there, he would have
    13  asked the obvious follow up question, what was it going to
    14  be used for? Either it was not asked, or it was not
    15  recorded, or you did not tell us?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Now. There are no dots in paragraph. The original page
    17  is in the binder so you can check the original page, if I
    18  have quoted the thing as a whole or if I have left
    19  something out, but I can assure you, my Lord, that
    20  I quoted the whole passage. So the third kind of option
    21  I would reject out of hand. I think that probably the
    22  problem in this court was that people knew too well what
    23  these words meant and what was implied by the question,
    24  and that they did not find it necessary to be very
    25  specific about it. If I had been the judge, I probably
    26  would have asked one more extra question, but the judge

    .           P-112

      1  did not do it.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In other words, there is some force in Mr
      3  Irving’s point? I think you are conceding that?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      5  MR IRVING:  I am not for one moment implying, and I want to
      6  make it quite plain, that Professor van Pelt has omitted
      7  any response or any subsequent question which was material
      8  to this issue, but it is a rather odd kind of examination,
      9  that the presiding judge did not say, “And what were these
    10  materials to be used for to your certain knowledge”,
    11  whereupon Mulka could either say, “Oh, they were going to
    12  be used for fumigation or they were going to be used for
    13  killing human beings”. It is a negative piece of evidence
    14  and I will now ask Professor van Pelt, of these five
    15  tonnes of Zyklon-B pellets, or over five tonnes, that were
    16  picked up on a trip like this, in your estimation how much
    17  would be used for fumigation purposes? In other words,
    18  for innocent life saving purposes as opposed to homicidal
    19  purposes? What kind of percentage?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That is very difficult to say. I have submitted to the
    21  court a document in which I calculate, on the basis of the
    22  figures for 1943, the likely use of Zyklon-B in
    23  Auschwitz. This is the supplement to the expert’s
    24  opinion. I am happy to go through those figures.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, part I of the blue file.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am happy to go through those figures because, if you

    .           P-113

      1  want me to be very specific, I can be very specific, and
      2  I made quite detailed calculations. Of course the
      3  question depends on how large is the camp at the time, how
      4  many prisoners are there at the time, how many delousing
      5  installations are available in the camp at the time, what
      6  kind of transports are coming in, and so on.
      7  MR IRVING:  Let us see if you can talk in round figures. If it
      8  was being used for fumigation purposes, it would be used
      9  for two fumigation purposes, would it not, for fumigating
    10  barracks and for fumigating clothing and objects, shall we
    11  say?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, you are right.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: For that purpose they had a purpose built fumigation
    14  chamber in Auschwitz, the one that we have seen with the
    15  blue stains on the outside walls?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There are a number of them, in fact. There was one
    17  building —-
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: B W 5?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Also in Auschwitz I there was a building with two
    20  fumigation rooms but they were probably used consecutively
    21  in Auschwitz. Then there was a fumigation or delousing
    22  facility in Canada I which we discussed yesterday, where
    23  the hair was found and we have a fumigation capability in
    24  Zyklon, I am now talking only about Zyklon, in Birkenhau,
    25  in the women’s camp.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: What other kind of fumigation equipment did they have

    .           P-114

      1  apart from Zyklon? Did they have any other equipment at
      2  any time in Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Do you mean toxic equipment?
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Any kind of methods of killing pests.
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The preferred method, if they could do that, they would
      6  really prefer, was either by hot air or hot steam.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would not hot steam have a bad effect on textiles?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That was one of many of the prisoners, inmates. They
      9  complained that always, when their prisoner clothing had
    10  been disinfected, had come back from the so-called
    11  Entwesungsanlage as they were called, indeed they had
    12  shrunk considerably. This is a continuous problem in the
    13  history of the camp.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: So the entwesungsanlage is a familiar concept to you,
    15  then, that German word? It is disinfestation equipment?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it also familiar to you that, at a relatively late
    18  stage in the war years, the Siemens Company were
    19  installing an electrical system of pest killing based on
    20  microwave?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, kurzwelle Entlausungsanlage.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: The short wave disinfestation equipment?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was rather like a microwave cooker for cooking the
    25  insects basically?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not exactly know the technology but I trust your

    .           P-115

      1  description.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was basically a high voltage system using a lot of
      3  electric power that was going to be installed in
      4  Birkenhau?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was going to be installed but, as far as I know, it
      6  actually never was installed.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: It arrived. It was delivered.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was actually meant for Auschwitz I. What happened was
      9  that in Auschwitz I a very large Zyklon-B delousing
    10  installation was created at the aufnahmegebaude which is
    11  the reception building for prisoners. There were 19
    12  standard delousing cells, each of 10 cubic metres which
    13  uses two hundred grammes of Zyklon-B, the smallest tin,
    14  and as this building was being completed, the SS decided
    15  to change the method of disinfection in those cells, at
    16  least in four of those cells. There were 19 so 15 would
    17  remain Zyklon-B, and four of them would be the Siemens.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: What word would they use to describe that kind of room or
    19  building? Would it be a Vergasungsraum or a
    20  Vergasungskeller?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In general these rooms are called Gaskammer.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: They are also called Gaskammer?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. In 1944, however, I have to go because in 1944
    24  actually the language changes. They called them normal
    25  Gaskammer, which means on the type sheets which were
    26  produced by the SS and, if you allow me, my Lord, I will

    .           P-116

      1  just make —-
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Normal means standard, does it not, in that context?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. The SS produced standard designs for concentration
      4  camps which were handed out to people who were building in
      5  the field. What happens is that these sheets were
      6  produced in 1941 to give a local concentration camp
      7  kommandant some guidelines of where to start when he was
      8  ordered to create a concentration camp. These designs
      9  include two designs for delousing facilities and in those
    10  designs these spaces are called Gaskammer, for example.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would there be very much talk of these gas chambers
    12  amongst the prisoners, do you think? Would there be a lot
    13  of gossip about them?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I complete the answer because we were talking about
    15  the name of the thing? They use Gaskammer. Then in 1944
    16  at a certain moment in Auschwitz they started to use the
    17  cells specially in relationship to the building where
    18  these four cells are being adjusted to the Siemens
    19  procedure. They start to call them normal Gaskammer, which
    20  means standard or normal gas chambers. So then the
    21  question is in relationship to what? Is it in
    22  relationship to an abnormal one, which is a homicidal one,
    23  which some people have concluded, or is it in relationship
    24  to some other gas chamber?
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, you are familiar with the fact that
    26  the German world “normal” is not translated as “normal”,

    .           P-117

      1  it is translated as “standard”?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Standard.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: “Normalfilm” is 35 millimetre film, for example.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think the first translation I give was “standard”.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: In other words, you cannot draw adventurous conclusions
      6  from the fact that they called something a standard gas
      7  chamber?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I said some people have done that. I did not say I did
      9  myself.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would it not be just a standard piece of equipment
    11  delivered by Degesch or by Tesh who actually manufactured
    12  gas chambers for precisely this purpose and they had
    13  standard sizes?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: You interrupted me. My own conclusion was indeed that
    15  “normal Gaskammer” probably referred to the ten cubic
    16  metre standard Degesch gas chambers.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: That has nothing to do with the fact that, because we are
    18  calling this one the normal one, therefore there were
    19  abnormal ones somewhere else in the camp. This was
    20  misleading for you to state that, was it not?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. He said to the contrary. He does not
    22  himself subscribe to the theory that normal Gaskammer
    23  implies an abnormal Gaskammer where homicidal events took
    24  place?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If I can just finish this in one sentence, then another
    26  word is being used in Auschwitz at the time. We find it

    .           P-118

      1  on many bills and also documents by Degesh at the time in
      2  1944 which actually is about the Zyklon-B gas chambers in
      3  Auschwitz I, and they used the word Begasungskammer. This
      4  is very unusual, but there are a number of documents which
      5  use the word Begasungskammer.
      6  MR IRVING:  The sense of that would be the gassing chamber,
      7  would it not?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. It is almost like adding gas, like applying gas to,
      9  the gas supplying chamber, maybe that would be a
    10  translation.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: I agree with that, yes.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, I am interrupting as well.
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have finished.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there any significance in the V E R at the
    15  beginning of Vergasungskammer as a German speaker?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not a German. I am not a native German speaker.
    17  Dutch is still —-
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: You seem fairly familiar with it.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would say no. Vergasung seems to be a transitive verb.
    20  I do not attach any particular significance to the fact
    21  that it is used like that.
    22  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I will be putting to your Lordship a
    23  number of documents with the word Vergasung in, which
    24  obviously are completely innocent, in an attempt to
    25  persuade your Lordship in that direction.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.

    .           P-119

      1  MR IRVING:  Professor van Pelt, have you seen invoices or
      2  delivery notes from the Degesch company relating to
      3  supplies of Zyklon-B shipments to the concentration camps
      4  at Auschwitz and at Oranienburg?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I think 12 of these invoices were submitted in the
      6  Nuremberg trials.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: The original documents are there, are they not?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I have seen a number. All the invoices are for the
      9  same one amount, except one,, which is a slightly higher
    10  amount, so I have seen a copy of the standard amount and
    11  one for the higher amount. I have not seen all the
    12  invoices in the original.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Had you seen these at the time you wrote your book, or
    14  just between writing your book and writing your expert
    15  report?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I have seen these earlier.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Before you wrote your book?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Did you do any kind of analysis of those invoices to
    20  see the rate at which these supplies were being delivered
    21  to Auschwitz as compared with Oranienburg?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. The invoices themselves, and I have made a particular
    23  comment on it once you raised the issue in your letter of
    24  December, I do not think are particularly important as
    25  evidence one way or another about the use of Zyklon-B in
    26  Auschwitz, because there are actually much better sources

    .           P-120

      1  available to us if one wants to raise that issue, which is
      2  the Tesh and Stabanov accounts of total deliveries of
      3  Zyklon B to Auschwitz in 1942 and 1943.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Am I right in saying that the chief accountant of the Tesh
      5  company had a pocket notebook in which he entered all the
      6  amounts that he supplied to Auschwitz and to various other
      7  armed force branches and so on on a monthly basis? He
      8  kept this notebook and it was introduced in evidence in
      9  that trial?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was introduced as evidence. I think there were also
    11  supporting documents for that.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: But am I right in suggesting that these invoices to which
    13  I refer, the delivery notes which were introduced in
    14  Nuremberg, the 12 delivery notes, relating to the supply
    15  of Zyklon-B quantities to Auschwitz concentration camp and
    16  to Oranienburg concentration camp, they are relatively
    17  random? In other words, first of all, they are
    18  sequentially numbered, and the deliveries are sequentially
    19  numbered?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but —-
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: They are in sequence so there is nothing missing?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but these particular invoices come with a very
    23  particular history.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you implying that there is anything suspect about the
    25  integrity of these documents?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I do not imply that at all, but I think the way they

    .           P-121

      1  were generated — these were an appendix. They were
      2  handed over together with an account of how they came in
      3  the possession of the man who had it.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: We will come to the man to whom they are addressed in a
      5  minute.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This man gives a record of the background of these
      7  particular invoices which had to do with a particular
      8  request which came to him from a certain Sturmanfuhrer
      9  Gunter in Berlin.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Who was Eichmann’s assistant, am I correct?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can I ask you for my benefit
    13  because remember this is a completely new point to me.
    14  Can you put what you suggest one gets from the Oranienburg
    15  invoices in relation to the quantity of use of Zyklon-B
    16  there?
    17  MR IRVING:  It is my very next question, my Lord.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good. Thank you.
    19  MR IRVING:  Am I right in suggesting that identical quantities,
    20  broadly speaking, of Zyklon-B were delivered to Auschwitz
    21  and Oranienburg over the time covered by those 12
    22  invoices?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The invoices talk about identical quantities to
    24  Oranienburg and Auschwitz. But the important question is,
    25  is this all the deliveries of Zyklon-B to Auschwitz? Then
    26  we have to go back to actually the origin of these

    .           P-122

      1  documents.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are looking just at these 12 documents to start with?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If we only look at these 12 documents.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you remember my question, please, Professor van Pelt,
      5  where I said is it correct to say that the deliveries are
      6  numbered in sequence and that there are no missing
      7  numbers?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not remember, but I will take your word for it.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Thank you very much. Am I right in saying that it has
    10  never been suggested that there were mass homicidal
    11  killings by gas chambers in Oranienburg?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, there were some experimental probably, accounts of
    13  experimental gassings of some Russians in Satzenhausen
    14  which was in fact a concentration camp in Oranienburg, but
    15  apart from that —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In 1944?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 1942.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are talking about 1944?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I just want to be precise. The general question was posed
    20  and I do not want to say that there was never any Zyklon-B
    21  gassing. There are reports of that in that city.
    22  MR IRVING:  Am I correct in saying that these invoices to which
    23  you are referring are from the early months of 1944? My
    24  memory says that.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell the court to whom these invoices were

    .           P-123

      1  personally addressed?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They were addressed to a man named Kurt Gerstein.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: G E R S T E I N. What is on the next line of the address,
      4  can you remember, at Auschwitz concentration camp?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have a copy somewhere.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: It seems important.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Berlin?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have it in my report after page 11.
      9  MR IRVING:  Your Lordship will remember that Professor Evans
    10  said that I had not the slightest reason for saying that
    11  these were going for fumigation purposes in the camp.
    12  What does the next line read?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: After his name?
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Does it not say that it is going to the
    15  Entwesungsabteilung or words to that effect?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not in my copy.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, it is not in the next line. It is actually in the
    18  invoice bit itself.
    19  MR IRVING:  Yes?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It says we did send at the 8th March from Dessau with a
    21  Wehrmacht Vorbrief, which means an army kind of
    22  transportation voucher, of the jedestatt Verwaltung
    23  Dessau.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Administration?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: At Dessau to the concentration camp in Auschwitz, the
    26  department of disinfestation and anzeufer is a plague.

    .           P-124

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is tortology, really. They are both the same thing are
      2  they not?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No they are not exactly.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Disinfecting and disinfestation?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Seuche is an epidemic so anti-epidemic department.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Epidemic control?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Epidemic control department, yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was in fact Kurt Gerstein’s position, was it not?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not in Auschwitz. He was employed at the Hygienic
    10  Institute in Oranienburg.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it not significant that these huge quantities of Zyklon
    12  pellets are being sent to the office in charge of epidemic
    13  control at Auschwitz? What use is made of them
    14  subsequently of course is another matter. But this deals
    15  with the system again?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: What is significant is who will receive Zyklon when it
    17  arrives in Auschwitz. Again, from my witness testimony,
    18  we know that it was exactly that department which
    19  controlled all Zyklon in Auschwitz, and ultimately that
    20  was one of the reasons also that doctors always had to be
    21  present when Zyklon was applied one way or the other.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Now that we are with the person of Kurt Gerstein, will you
    23  tell the court if he is one of your eyewitnesses in any
    24  respect when you write your report?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. Kurt Gerstein has made no statement whatsoever about
    26  Auschwitz or the gas chambers of crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and

    .           P-125

      1  5.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you placed any reliance on Kurt Gerstein in your
      3  report?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I did not need to place any reliance in my work on
      5  Auschwitz since he has never made any testimony about
      6  Auschwitz.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Although he made some very detailed allegations about how
      8  many people were killed in the gas chambers elsewhere, and
      9  he gave figures for the quantities killed in the other gas
    10  chambers in the other camps, you are not prepared to draw
    11  conclusions about the general reliability of this kind of
    12  eyewitness?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I do not think that at the moment the statement you
    14  made can be supported. I think that Kurt Gerstein has
    15  made a detailed account of a visit to Treblinka where he
    16  came in the summer of 1942. He made a detailed
    17  description of that.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor Vananstiel, that is correct?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Professor Vananstiel(?) Later Professor Vananstiel after
    20  the war confirmed that indeed he had been with Kurt
    21  Gerstein in Treblinka and confirmed more or less the
    22  account, except where it applies to his own role in this
    23  trip, a number of remarks he would have made while looking
    24  through the spy hole into the gas chamber, but apart from
    25  Kurt Gerstein has not made any calculations, as far as
    26  I know, I do not think he even made about Treblinka or

    .           P-126

      1  for that matter he never mentioned Auschwitz in any
      2  context of extermination.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am only deal with the Gerstein report in the context of
      4  reliability of eyewitness evidence in general. This is
      5  the only reason I am going to ask the next few questions.
      6  Did Mr Kurt Gerstein, who was an SS officer, make any
      7  statements about the number of people who were packed into
      8  the gas chamber that he witnessed allegedly?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am not going to comment on that without the document in
    10  front of me.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: You have not read the Gerstein report?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Of course I have read various editions of the Gerstein
    13  report, both the French and the German, but I am not going
    14  to comment on what Kurt Gerstein may have said or may not
    15  have said when I do not have the document in front of me.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you aware that there seven different versions of the
    17  Gerstein report?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I know there are various different versions. I did not
    19  know it was seven.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you aware that each successive version of the report
    21  became more lurid in French captivity and that the numbers
    22  grew larger like Topsy?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving I do not remember —-
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: I should have asked how many versions of the report have
    25  you read?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have read three versions of the report.

    .           P-127

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Did you notice any discrepancy between the figures and the
      2  general scale of the atrocity he was describing?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. The reports are longer and shorter, so I have not
      4  compared them on actual figures. In some reports he
      5  includes more information, and in other reports he has
      6  less. I have not made a comparative study of all the
      7  reports together because they do not apply to Auschwitz.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well.

    Section 128.9 to 145.22

      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor van Pelt, this part of the
    10  cross-examination started off, I think, on the topic of
    11  how much Zyklon B went to Auschwitz, how much of it might
    12  have been used for delousing and disinfecting and all the
    13  rest of it, therefore how much was left, if any?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Can you —-
    16  MR IRVING:  I was about to come back on to that main line with
    17  certain specific questions.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  May I get the answer to my question,
    19  Mr Irving, first?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Can you give me in broad terms an answer, so far as your
    21  conclusions on that question go?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. May I use the document for that?
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Of course. I just thought it was a convenient way short
    24  circuiting?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There are two years on which we know, on the basis of the
    26  testimony of Alfred Sahen, supported by his notebook but

    .           P-128

      1  also other information available at the trial of
      2  distributors. They were not really distributors, people
      3  that allocate Zyklon-B. The amounts of deliveries of
      4  Zyklon-B to Auschwitz, that is 1942 and 1943. On page 22
      5  of my additional report, one can read that in 1942, seven
      6  and a half thousand kilos were delivered to Auschwitz, and
      7  in 1943 12,000 kilos were delivered do Auschwitz.
      8  MR IRVING:  That is 12 tonnes?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 12 tonnes were delivered to Auschwitz. I have done a
    10  calculation. In 1942 this seven and a half thousand kilos
    11  to Auschwitz comes out of 9,000 kilos to the whole
    12  concentration camp system. Again, I do not draw the
    13  conclusion but I want to say the conclusion other people
    14  have drawn is that, since Auschwitz received more than
    15  three-quarters of all the Zyklon-B, something like 80 per
    16  cent of the Zyklon-B, this meant of course this could only
    17  have been caused by the use of Zyklon-B as a killing agent
    18  and I do not agree such a simple jump.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can we be quite plain that you do not agree with that?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not simply on the basis that there were seven and a half
    21  thousand kilos going to Zyklon-B, and 1,500 to the rest of
    22  the concentration camp system. I would not jump
    23  immediately to the conclusion. I think one has to be more
    24  careful when one comes to conclusions.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I ask you one question here? How many satellite camps
    26  were dependant on Auschwitz as their central distribution

    .           P-129

      1  headquarters?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In 1943 or 1942?
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Shall we say 1944?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 1944, 34, but many measures were very small. May
      5  I continue to answer the question his Lordship has asked?
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: This need not necessarily just have been going to
      7  Auschwitz itself, they would have been possibly shovelling
      8  it on to other places that needed it?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but only few of those camps had actually delousing
    10  installations. Most of the delousing for the satellite
    11  camps were actually done back in Auschwitz.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: When you delouse a barracks or a barrack room like this
    13  room here, do you need installation or do you just close
    14  all the doors and windows and do what the Americans call
    15  tenting?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I am a little confused right now.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Come back to that, Mr Irving. I am
    18  getting an explanation of the total figures that went to
    19  Auschwitz. So you do not make the jump simply from
    20  relative quantities?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I have made the calculation and ultimately what I do
    22  is that I am making the two ways actually to determine
    23  what is a normal use for Zyklon-B? The first is to look
    24  at other camps. What would a camp of the same size use
    25  compared to Auschwitz? That is the first exercise I did
    26  on pages 25 and 26. For example, we have information for

    .           P-130

      1  1943 so that is why it is important to look at 1943.
      2  There is Satzenhausen in 1943 at 40,000 inmates, and it
      3  almost used 3,000 kilos of Zyklon-B that year. If
      4  Auschwitz would have been the same size as Satzenhausen
      5  because Auschwitz had an average of 60,000 inmates that
      6  year, it would have used four and a half thousand kilo if
      7  indeed we could take the Satzenhausen figure as a point of
      8  departure. In fact, Auschwitz uses 12,000. Then we look
      9  at other camps, how much do they get, and we start to
    10  basically priorate population figures.
    11  MR IRVING:  These figures are quite meaningless because of
    12  course we know that Auschwitz was at the centre of one of
    13  the worst epidemics in history.
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not any more in 1943.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That was summer 1942, was it not?
    16  MR IRVING:  There was another epidemic in January 1943?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There was a smaller epidemic in January 1943, which was
    18  dealt with rather quickly, and the outbreak of an epidemic
    19  in the gypsy camp in the summer of 1942 almost had no
    20  deaths.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: The whole point is that you use Zyklon B preemptively.
    22  You do not use it as a mopping up operation. You use it
    23  to stop it happening again.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mostly.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: You fumigate barracks again and again and again.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Survivors have testified to the fact that these barracks

    .           P-131

      1  were not very often fumigated. I have recently, but
      2  I will try to continue my arguments. But I will just
      3  finish this sentence.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, it would be helpful to me at any
      5  rate if he can complete this answer and then you can of
      6  course cross-examine on it.
      7  MR IRVING:  I am restraining myself but that was an important
      8  point to make I think.
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. So, my Lord, so at the one side we can look at, kind
    10  of, the figures in other camps, and we then we look at
    11  Auschwitz. On page 26, I think demonstrates that the
    12  Auschwitz figure of 12,000 kilos is much higher than you
    13  would expect on the basis of deliveries to other camps if
    14  we take the different sizes into account.
    15  Then the second kind of exercise one can do is
    16  to look at the way Zyklon-B could have been used in
    17  Auschwitz. So how much would have used in delousing in
    18  this year? This is, I start to do this on page 27 and it
    19  continues. It gets a very detailed kind of calculation.
    20  I start out with — the question is, where are
    21  the delousing rooms and what is the capacity of these
    22  delousing rooms? So in 1943, the total Zyklon B delousing
    23  space was 940 cubic metres. That is from the bottom of
    24  page 27.
    25  Now, then we are going to look of how much, what
    26  concentration of hydrogen cyanide would have been used in

    .           P-132

      1  these rooms, and I refer back to a German war time
      2  document by the [German] which is the Health Institution
      3  of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague,
      4  which instructs that one needs eight grammes of Zyklon-B
      5  per cubic metre for 16 hours to kill vermins, such as
      6  bugs, lice, flees, etc..
      7  Now, I assume that these delousing spaces would
      8  have, indeed, used that concentration. It is the only
      9  kind of basis I can work on, and that as a result of that
    10  is that if we have one gassing per day in each of these
    11  rooms — now, this is very unlikely because there were
    12  large rooms actually in the Sturmlager in Auschwitz which
    13  eyewitness testimony says were only used irregularly, but
    14  now I am assuming for a moment that these eyewitness are
    15  wrong, and that they were used every day, I come to
    16  basically seven-and-a-half kilogrammes of Zyklon-B per day
    17  or 2,730 kilos of Zyklon-B per year if there is a
    18  delousing every day. So I have now in some way accounted
    19  at a maximum delousing capacity in the camp for 2,730
    20  kilos of Zyklon-B.
    21  So now we are going to look at the average size
    22  of each barrack which is 12,000 — and these are the
    23  barracks in Birkenhau right now — 12,000 cubic metres, in
    24  which the barracks in the women’s camp are slightly larger
    25  and barracks in building sector 2 are slightly smaller.
    26  They are around 1200. In the women’s camp they were

    .           P-133

      1  around 1250 and in Auschwitz they were larger.
      2  So if we take again the same concentration, this
      3  would be quite a high concentration for the delousing of
      4  barracks. One needs in Birkenhau six to 10 kilos per
      5  barrack, and in Auschwitz one where they are two-storey
      6  barracks, 12 to 20 kilos per barrack, which means that the
      7  complete delousing of all the 192 dwelling barracks in
      8  Birkenhau would take between 1200 and 1900 kilos, and all
      9  the 30 —-
    10  MR IRVING:  Each time, right?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Each time, and all the 30 dwelling barracks in Auschwitz
    12  would take 360 and 600 kilos of Zyklon-B. Then there were
    13  also workshop storage barracks, and they would have taken
    14  240 to 400 kilos, which means that the complete delousing
    15  of the camp (and we are now talking about Auschwitz 1 and
    16  Auschwitz 2) would have taken between 1750 and 2,900
    17  kilos.
    18  Now, on the basis of this comparison with these
    19  other camps, I had established that an amount of 9,000
    20  kilos for Zyklon-B for Auschwitz in 1943 would have been
    21  within the kind of range of the possible. It would be the
    22  high end, but I would not have been surprised to see so
    23  much.
    24  This means that if we take that 9,000 as a kind
    25  of bench mark of what a normal — Auschwitz under normal
    26  conditions would have used, then we can have at least two

    .           P-134

      1  complete delousing of all the barracks in the camp in
      2  1943.
      3  Now, I take two eyewitness testimonies which is
      4  one from Helen Zipitehau who was in the women’s camp from
      5  — a Slovac Jew — 1942 until the liberation in 1945.
      6  She remembered three our four of these large delousings of
      7  the whole women’s camp in her two-and-a-half year stay.
      8  Then Dr Ziegsmund Bendel in the Tesch trial declared that
      9  he has only one delousing of the barracks during his 13
    10  month stay in Auschwitz. This is the kind of practical
    11  information we have about how many times. I mean, I do
    12  not have any more information on that.
    13  It seems then that the 1750 to 2,000 — that
    14  this let us say two or three, maybe two delousings in 1943
    15  of the whole camp would still bring us below the 9,000
    16  kilos of Zyklon used after all the gas chambers have been
    17  working every day, the delousing gas chambers, and
    18  basically we have had the delousing of the blocks.
    19  I must make one kind of — a particular
    20  thing must be noted, that if in the German document
    21  sometimes there is talking about the “Entlausung des
    22  Blocks”, it means that the people in the block are going
    23  to be taken to be deloused. There is particular things.
    24  It says that block 11 was “entlaust” which means everyone
    25  was taken to be BW5A, the delousing building in the
    26  women’s camp, or so on.

    .           P-135

      1  This means then when we go to page 29 that I say
      2  that 9,000 given these two, these very infrequent
      3  delousings of the whole camp, that those 9,000 kilos of
      4  Zyklon-B which I originally established on the basis of
      5  comparison with other camps seems to be on the high side
      6  but within the ball park of what Auschwitz would have
      7  needed for its normal concentration camp purposes.
      8  So then the question is, what are these other
      9  3,000 kilos of Zyklon-B going to be used for? What other
    10  kind of needs did Auschwitz have for Zyklon-B which were
    11  not to be found in other concentration camps?
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, I think, probably completes your
    13  answer. It is a long answer, but it was very helpful and
    14  very clear to me. So back to Mr Irving.
    15  MR IRVING:  My first question is you have, of course, read,
    16  have you not, the testimony and supporting evidence in the
    17  trial of Bruno Tesch whose company was the main
    18  distributor East of the Elf for Zyklon-B?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I told you before that I have read parts of the trial and
    20  part of testimony. In detail, they are the testimony of
    21  Alfred Zamm.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: This question is not meant to be the least bit offensive,
    23  but you are not an expert in disinfestation, are you?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I am not.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: The company of Tesch and Stavanacht were, in fact, the
    26  leading disinfestation experts in the whole of Europe

    .           P-136

      1  which is why their Managing Director found himself on the
      2  end of a British rope in 1946?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not think that is why he found himself on the rope,
      4  but they were the leading firm, yes. They developed the
      5  procedure.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: The record of the trial shows that both he and his fellow
      7  convict, Weinbarer, repeatedly visited these camps and
      8  checked what was going on and trained the local staff in
      9  the proper application and use of these pesticides and
    10  fumigating agents, these materials, is that not right?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I remember that in the transcript of what I read that,
    12  indeed, there is a mention of these visits, but I would
    13  not comment in detail since I do not have them in front of
    14  me.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it not right that during the trial, which is recorded
    16  verbatim — it is in the Public Record Office, in fact —
    17  the accountant of the company was required to produce the
    18  records on which you have partially based your
    19  calculations showing precisely what the deliveries of
    20  Zyklon-B to Auschwitz were during the years concerned for
    21  precisely the same exercise that we have been doing in
    22  court today?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That exercise has not been done.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: In the Tesch trial?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: At the trial, at the trial they did not do this exercise.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have you read the letters of clemency that were submitted

    .           P-137

      1  to the court after the death sentences were passed?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have not.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Well, then we are in a difficulty. Will you take it
      4  Bruno Tesch, the Managing Director, when confronted with
      5  the figures of Zyklon-B delivered to the Auschwitz camp,
      6  and doing the calculation of how many sets of clothing had
      7  had to be fumigated on a regular interval, on a regular
      8  basis, and how many barrack buildings had had to be
      9  fumigated and disinfested, expressed astonishment that
    10  they managed to do the task with as little as 12 tonnes in
    11  that one year concerned? He said that on these figures
    12  they would have had nothing left whatsoever for any kind
    13  of sinister purposes, and that this is very clearly stated
    14  in the trial and in appeals for clemency?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I cannot comment on what Mr Tesch said. What I can
    16  comment on is the fact that the amount of Zyklon being
    17  delivered to other camps was so much smaller than
    18  Auschwitz that I think this is a more interesting road to
    19  pursue.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: That was, of course, the point of my interruption which
    21  his Lordship quite properly reproved me for, when
    22  I pointed out that Auschwitz was receiving very large
    23  quantities of pesticide for a certain reason which you set
    24  out so admirably in your first book, namely, that
    25  Auschwitz had been built in the middle of an area which
    26  had traditionally over the centuries attracted typhus

    .           P-138

      1  plagues, and it was the heart of a terrible typhus plague
      2  in 1942?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do remember what is in my book without actually having
      4  to consult it. I never say anywhere in the book that
      5  Auschwitz was a place which was suffering typhus plagues.
      6  I only mentioned the issue of climate actually in the
      7  discussion of an introduction of Jan Sehn to his report on
      8  Auschwitz where Jan Sehn makes a very big point of it, and
      9  where I say actually I disagree because Jan Sehn in some
    10  way tries to create a context of unhealthiness for the
    11  place as if the Germans had chosen Auschwitz with this in
    12  mind. I say this, obviously, is not supported by
    13  historical evidence.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Had Auschwitz ever been used as a disinfestation centre
    15  for transients in previous generations or before the Nazis
    16  came? Had they used it — it was right on the border of
    17  the Austro-Hungarian Empire, was it not?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. This is part of my research in the past has been
    19  actually on the origin of the camp, and the Sturmlager was
    20  originally created as a labour exchange.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It had all the appropriate installations there for
    22  fumigating the transients, did it not?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They had no installations whatsoever for the fumigation of
    24  transients.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Not for preparing them in this manner?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I mean, one of the big problems was, of course, that

    .           P-139

      1  Zyklon did not exist at the time, at the time that when
      2  the camp functioned there were also no steam installations
      3  or hot air installations.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Have I read your book entirely wrongly then when you
      5  suggest that the transients were held in Auschwitz for a
      6  while and subjected to appropriate measures to make sure
      7  they were fit for travelling into a cleaner part of
      8  Europe?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have — I think you are confusing two things. I can see
    10  where the confusion comes from. There is one quote I make
    11  a general, in the book, a general kind of description of
    12  the movement of Eastern European Jews who go to America
    13  and who cross the border and at a certain moment are going
    14  to be — their clothing is going to be deloused one way or
    15  another. It does not say what way it is. It is an
    16  account of a girl called Mary Anton who panics —-
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I remember this, yes?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — at this thing, so that is the one account which is
    19  there. The second account is about the use of —-
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Because they are taken off the train and sent in to be
    21  washed, am I right?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, and she gets very nervous about that.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: She says, “Oh, my God, they are going to gas us”?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, “to kill us”, not “gas us”; and those facilities
    25  existed, some of them at the border and also they existed
    26  in the harbours of Bremen and Hamburg.

    .           P-140

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: When was that? Roughly what year was that?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This was 1880s, 1890s.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: So it has been a problem over the decades, there has been
      4  a problem in that region?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I mean, the German —-
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is a very swampy region, is it?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I mean, but this was happening all over the East, that
      8  people who were, that Jews, migrants who were leaving the
      9  Russian Empire were subjected to German hygienic measures
    10  as they crossed the border or came into the harbours of
    11  Bremen and Hamburg where they were placed in quarantine.
    12  There were special areas of the harbour where these Jews
    13  were quarantined. There were these kinds of
    14  installations. However, Auschwitz was slightly different
    15  because while Auschwitz, at the one side, had these
    16  transmigrants who went over the border there, because it
    17  was a border town, the camp was not created with that in
    18  mind. The camp was created, the Sturmlager was created to
    19  very specifically house transmigrant workers who all
    20  converged on Auschwitz in March and April of every year
    21  looking for seasonal work in Germany. There were only
    22  three little hotels in the town, and the hotels said these
    23  people were living on the street, and there were 10 or
    24  15,000 people living on the street.
    25  So, the Austrian Government decided to create a
    26  centre at the border where these people could be housed

    .           P-141

      1  and where then also German agents for the various
      2  employment opportunities, like the Jungkris(?) in the
      3  estates, could come, send people on and then the most
      4  important function there was to actually check if all the
      5  young men had done their military service and were allowed
      6  to leave the country.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: And that was Auschwitz, right?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That was in Auschwitz.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Just to round off this topic of the Zyklon
    10  consumption figures, you have done very interesting
    11  calculations, and I have to admit they are admirably done,
    12  the calculations. You arrive overall at the end of these
    13  very lengthy and complicated calculations at a probable
    14  consumption of nine tonnes?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Nine tonnes in the camp in 1943, yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: As opposed to the 12 tonnes that we know to have been
    17  delivered. Is this a meaningful difference, in your view,
    18  in view of the fact that you are totally inexperienced in
    19  pest control?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I invite other people to redo the calculations again.
    21  I thought that, as far as an historian, I must say that
    22  using the maximum delousing capacity of the camp and the
    23  maximum — and how much it will take on the basis of
    24  German documents to delouse the whole camp —-
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Does it make any allowance for inefficiencies of any
    26  measures anywhere? Does it make your usual engineer’s

    .           P-142

      1  allowance for inefficiencies somewhere or mistakes?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think that I have made a very generous assumption in the
      3  amount of Zyklon-B which was being used.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: Or for quantities being sent on to the satellite camps?
      5  These are things which you did not — in my submission,
      6  there is no significant difference statistically over that
      7  range of calculations and figures and, given the
      8  uncertainty of the starting points between nine tonnes and
      9  12 tonnes, on the one hand, is that correct?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Nine tonnes can be justified, but it is a very high number
    11  because I am assuming two complete delousings of the camp,
    12  of all the buildings in the camp, per year.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you had assumed three, of course, you would have come
    14  over 12 tonnes, would you not?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I would come over nine tonnes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You said you were just assuming two?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not over 12 tonnes. But at a certain moment the question
    18  is how many delousings of the whole camp were operated.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: We just have two eyewitnesses, is this correct, who
    20  suggests that — one of them was one of the eyewitnesses
    21  to whom, I have to say, I attach little credence and the
    22  other one I may or may not be correct in saying she only
    23  records three or four, is that correct, in the time —-
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: During her whole time in the camp.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: — during the whole time she was there? But against
    26  that, we set the evidence of Bruno Tesch in his trial, and

    .           P-143

      1  he is the acknowledged leading German expert on
      2  disinfestation who says, having been given the figures, he
      3  is astonished that they managed to carry out the
      4  fumigation of all these sets of clothing, given the number
      5  of prisoners, because he knew how many kilograms of
      6  Zyklon-B were needed for each 100 sets of clothing. That
      7  is the calculation he did.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that Tesch you are talking about now?
      9  MR IRVING:  I am talking about Bruno Tesch, T-E-S-C-H.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  May I ask Professor van Pelt a question about
    11  that? The prosecution against Tesch, presumably, involved
    12  the prosecution establishing that he knew what the
    13  Zyklon-B was being supplied to Auschwitz for?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So he was likely to say that the quantity was the right
    16  amount to do the delousing?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The case, the evidence on which Tesch was ultimately
    18  convicted was not the quantity delivered to Auschwitz. It
    19  was actually a statement made by one of his employees who
    20  had said that Tesch knew about that what the Zyklon was
    21  being used for.
    22  MR IRVING:  He said that he came back and he dictated a travel
    23  report on a trip which had indicated that he knew what was
    24  going on?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was hotly disputed by other members of Tesch’s staff

    .           P-144

      1  who knew the travel reports concerned, but he was hanged
      2  on the basis of that one witness?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: You know, I do not want to redo the Tesh trial. I mean,
      4  it may have been true that Tesch knew about it or it may
      5  not have been true. But the issue was, the issue at stake
      6  in the trial was not the quantity of the deliveries.
      7  Interestingly enough, if you go back to the
      8  trial documents, what really made people very, very upset
      9  about it is the profit they got out of the deliveries.
    10  There was constant talk about how many Reichs Marks
    11  actually were made out of his deliveries to Auschwitz.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: I appreciate your Lordship’s point and, of course, it is
    13  absolutely right, he would have had a motive for trying to
    14  minimize it, but against that is to be set the fact that
    15  whereas you and I are, no doubt, astonished to see nine
    16  tonnes of cyanide being delivered to any camp or any
    17  place, and you think, “Well, this can only mean one
    18  thing”, the drift of my argument has been it could mean
    19  many things and it was by no means out of the ball park
    20  when you are looking at the other uses to which this
    21  domestic fumigant was very properly put.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I understand.

    Section 145.23 to 159.11

    23  MR IRVING:  Can I now proceed to a different topic, my Lord?
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, of course.
    25  MR IRVING:  We have dealt with the eyewitness in some detail,
    26  Professor van Pelt. I must say I am left unhappy at the

    .           P-145

      1  notion that so far the mass extermination of 500,000
      2  victims in this building here, krammer No. 2, rests,
      3  apparently, on a number of very shaky eyewitnesses —
      4  I think I have shaken two or three them — and on certain
      5  other documents that we have not really properly
      6  explored.
      7  Can you talk to the court, please, if I say to
      8  you what architectural drawings are there relating to
      9  crematorium No. (ii) and, in particular, to the alleged
    10  gas chamber in mortuary No. 1, can you tell the court
    11  about which one document in particular would be the one
    12  you would say was something close to a smoking gun — if
    13  there is such a document, such a blueprint?
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you mean Kuhler? Is he included in the
    15  question?
    16  MR IRVING:  Kuhler we can come to later, my Lord. I am
    17  interested in Kuhler, obviously, because that will bring
    18  us back to the holes, and I am going to keep on driving
    19  holes in this case until your Lordship appreciates the
    20  significance of the holes, or their absence. So I want to
    21  do that kind of scattered throughout these two days.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    23  THE WITNESS:[Professor Van Pelt]: So we are talking about blueprints?
    24  MR IRVING:  We are talking about drawings, architectural
    25  drawings. If there is anything in any of those drawings
    26  which you considered to be very suspicious?

    .           P-146

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have said in my report that the way the materials should
      2  be interpreted is as a convergence of evidence and not in
      3  terms of a single smoking gun. There are in the documents
      4  in Auschwitz, of course, documents which are more
      5  difficult to bring into harmony with the thesis that there
      6  would have been no gas chamber, no homicidal gas chamber,
      7  in crematorium (ii). For example, there is a letter, the
      8  notorious vergasungs letter, the keller letter of 29th
      9  January 1943; but since I am being asked about blueprints
    10  and I will limit my answer to blueprints, there is not one
    11  blueprint which by and in itself is a smoking gun.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you have repeatedly talked in radio programmes on the
    13  BBC, for example, the Horizon programme, you said, “We
    14  have the blue prints”, have you not? “We have the
    15  drawings”? I appreciate —-
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But we have to — we have the blueprints as historical
    17  evidence and one can draw conclusions out of the
    18  historical evidence.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is not the way you put it, of course. You were
    20  rather more specific. You said: “We have the drawings of
    21  the gas chambers”.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But it allows us, these drawings allow us to reconstruct
    23  the history of these things, the way these things were
    24  constructed, and the history includes a certain amount the
    25  history of the use and the modification of these buildings
    26  as a killing machine.

    .           P-147

      1  Now, there are certain drawings which certainly
      2  pop out of the bundle of drawings which is preserved. For
      3  example, a very, very important drawing, but again only
      4  seen in context, would have been the modification of the
      5  basement done by Walter Dejaco in December 1942. But
      6  again that drawing by itself does not say anything. That
      7  drawing has to be compared to the drawings that preceded
      8  that drawing.
      9  So, you know, I am happy to go — the problem is
    10  I do not know if everyone has the drawings — I am happy
    11  to go through a very detailed explication of those
    12  drawings, but given the fact we already have difficulty
    13  with Olaire before, I do not really know to do that
    14  because I will have to point at these things which are not
    15  labelled and these are, you know, those blueprints
    16  are —-
    17  MR IRVING:  We can get the drift of what your arguments are
    18  going to be. I just wanted to establish, though, that
    19  when you said these things on this BBC Horizon programme
    20  (of which we have the transcript here) of course, you are
    21  not reading from a script, you are just talking from
    22  memory, so to speak? If you were writing it, you would
    23  not have said that?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, there was no script of that. There was no script.
    25  I do not exactly know what I said, so maybe you can read
    26  it to the court and I can have a look at it and, you know,

    .           P-148

      1  I can comment on it.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. But the point I am making is that you are much more
      3  careful when you write than when you speak?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is nothing really in the Horizon programme which at
      5  the moment I feel I would have to take back. I am quite
      6  comfortable with what I said in that programme.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, except that you also referred to a document, but
      8  I am not on documents at present in terms which were
      9  inappropriate because it turns out that what you said was
    10  not borne out by the document. Do you remember that
    11  document, the one relating to the electric supply not
    12  being adequate, and you reversed the order of killing and
    13  cremating?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, in that document at a certain moment
    15  I transposed the word, I think, sonderbehantlung(?) and
    16  incineration from one to the other.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes, these things happen, do they not?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But the meaning, the meaning of what I said is exactly the
    19  same as the meaning of the document.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. These things happen. It was not any perverse
    21  manipulation of the evidence in any way; it was just —-
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Unlike what some people on the web suggest? No, it was no
    23  perverse manipulation.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: I have not suggested that, have I —-
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know if you have suggested it.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: — on my web site, no? That is not the point I am trying

    .           P-149

      1  to make.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If that is not suggested, we can move on,
      3  can we not?
      4  MR IRVING:  I am your Lordship appreciates the reason why I put
      5  the question. So what you are saying is there is no one
      6  drawing — we have established that the eye witness
      7  evidence is two legged rather than five legged. We have
      8  now heard that there is no one drawing which supports the
      9  identity of that underground mortuary as being a gas
    10  chamber either?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, but we can look now at two or three drawings together
    12  and then we start to look, we start to observe some very
    13  weird things and some modifications made between one
    14  drawing and the other drawing which certainly starts to
    15  point out at a use of —-
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: An unusual use?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — morgue No. 1 which is used which is certainly not
    18  suggestive of either an air raid shelter or that of any
    19  other kind of non-genocidal use.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can you tell us roughly what those discrepancies are on —
    21  shall I feed clues?
    22  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I hardly think this is satisfactory. We
    23  have the plans in the folder.
    24  MR IRVING:  Indeed, yes.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  It is quite a detailed exercise. I have been
    26  through it many times. It may or may not make sense, but

    .           P-150

      1  it is really ridiculous, in my submission, to ask this
      2  witness to try to do it —-
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You mean there is no such — it is either the
      4  whole hog or nothing?
      5  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. You cannot do that from memory.
      6  MR IRVING:  I am all for the whole hog in this case. Let us go
      7  the whole hog, but I thought that the Professor was saying
      8  it would be rather difficult to do this exercise in court
      9  with things as tricky as detailed drawings.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he was saying that, but if we have to
    11  do it, we have to do.
    12  MR IRVING:  Yes. But if Mr Rampton objects, then by all means
    13  let us look at the individual drawings.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But let me get this clear, Mr Irving, first:
    15  we will go through the drawings, by all means, but —-
    16  MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord, I —-
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — there is going to be no profit in doing
    18  so if, at the end of the day, you are going to put to
    19  Professor van Pelt, “Oh, well, that is all very well, but
    20  it was just a delousing chamber or disinfecting chamber”.
    21  So I do not want to spend a lot of time and in the end for
    22  it to be in a sense purposeless. Do you follow me?
    23  MR IRVING:  I agree, but your Lordship has heard the witness
    24  say that there are two or three specific things about the
    25  drawings which, when put together, can only lead to the
    26  sinister interpretation. I think I know what he is

    .           P-151

      1  alluding to.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, well, I am looking at one, the following
      3  page 183 in your report —-
      4  MR IRVING:  I do not want to preempt him.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — and I suspect that may be one of the ones,
      6  with the small holes along the top and bottom of the side
      7  walls.
      8  MR IRVING:  If your Lordship feels this is inappropriate that
      9  we should continue on this?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, well, I am in the difficulty, Mr Irving,
    11  as you will understand, I do not quite know that I know
    12  what the point that is going to be made is.
    13  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, let me say straight —-
    14  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, may I make an intervention now?
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We had better not all talk at once.
    16  MR RAMPTON:  No, I know, but I have foreseen this for
    17  sometime. I really think Mr Irving has to state his
    18  position now because otherwise, as your Lordship has just
    19  said, we could spend two hours going through the drawings
    20  and end up with the same conclusion as yesterday in
    21  cross-examination, “Yes, it was a gas chamber, but not for
    22  live human beings”.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is why I said what I said.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  If that is all that this examination is going to
    25  lead to, Mr Irving may as well come clean, say, “Yes,
    26  I accept it was a gas chamber. Now, Mr Van Pelt, how do

    .           P-152

      1  you deal with the suggestion that was for gassing corpses
      2  and clothes?”
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I mean, that is the point that I
      4  have just put to you, Mr Irving. Can you tell us what the
      5  answer is?
      6  MR IRVING:  I appreciate that Mr Rampton would prefer to
      7  conduct my cross-examination for me.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just answer my question.
      9  MR IRVING:  I will come clean and say precisely what points
    10  I am going for. Professor van Pelt has suggested that,
    11  because in one of the drawings there is a requirement for
    12  the vorwarmung or prewarming of the mortuary. This has a
    13  sinister connotation. Am I right, Professor?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is not there was drawing. This is there was letter,
    15  so I did not in any of my discussion, when you asked me
    16  about drawings right now, include that particular
    17  document. I said I was specifically talking about
    18  drawings.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: While we are on that document, can you tell me how
    20  important is that letter and how much reliance would you
    21  place on that as being halfway to the smoking gun?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know if I should answer this right now since
    23  another question was posed.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is your answer because I am going to go back,
    25  that it is part of the convergent evidence? Is that how
    26  you put it?

    .           P-153

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is an important part of convergent evidence, yes.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let’s go back, Mr Irving. I am going to
      3  insist that we get this clear and then we know where we
      4  are going.
      5  MR IRVING:  May I return to the prewarming later on, my Lord?
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course you can return to it later on.
      7  What is your position going to be? Supposing that the
      8  evidence satisfies me that there is reason to believe that
      9  this was intended to be there was gas chamber and not an
    10  air raid shelter, is that something you accept or
    11  dispute?
    12  MR IRVING:  It should be, with respect, my Lord, relatively
    13  easy for the witness to say there are two or three items,
    14  as he in fact said, which were to him, taken in
    15  conjunction with each other, adequate evidence that there
    16  was a sinister purpose.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is as may be, but I would like an answer
    18  to my question because I think you must come clean as to
    19  your position.
    20  MR IRVING:  I do not think I am equivocating. My position on
    21  this particular room is that it was never used in there
    22  was gas chamber sense, in the sense described by the
    23  eyewitnesses because of course the lack of holes proves
    24  that the eyewitnesses have lied.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is getting close to an answer but it is
    26  not quite an answer. Are you accepting it was a gas

    .           P-154

      1  chamber in the sense that it had the facility for gas to
      2  be inserted by whatever means, but contending that humans
      3  were never killed by gas in that chamber?
      4  MR IRVING:  Certainly on one occasion it was referred to as a
      5  Vergasungskeller and also referred to as a sonderkeller, a
      6  special cellar or special basement. That I also accept.
      7  What I do not accept is that it was going to be used for
      8  the mass killing of human beings by gas. This is a very
      9  clear statement. What I do postulate is that it was also
    10  simultaneously being held in prospect and even converted
    11  for use as an underground air raid shelter, being one of
    12  the very few subterranean buildings on the site in the
    13  event that mass attacks in this part of Poland also began,
    14  given the proximity of the IG Farben works.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure I missed it, but was part of that
    16  answer that yes, you do accept that it was there was gas
    17  chamber and that you accept that it was on occasion used
    18  for killing human beings?
    19  MR IRVING:  I accepted it was referred to as there was gas
    20  chamber, my Lord, which is not quite the same thing and
    21  there are documents —-
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you accepting it was in fact there was
    23  gas chamber?
    24  MR IRVING:  That I have not seen evidence for.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So you are not accepting that?
    26  MR IRVING:  I am not accepting that part of the statement

    .           P-155

      1  because I have not seen any evidence that bears that part
      2  of the statement out. I have seen evidence that it was
      3  referred to by the German authorities as there was
      4  Vergasungskeller, there was room for gassing in.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you still do not accept that it was in
      6  fact there was gas chamber? Is that the position?
      7  MR IRVING:  That is precisely my position, my Lord.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then we go through the drawings.
      9  MR IRVING:  The drawings, but only in respect to elucidating
    10  this point. You said that you had two or three matters in
    11  the drawings which you thought would bear out this
    12  contention?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am just trying to make up my mind how to do this. We
    14  are going to go through there was complex exercise in
    15  which I have now to make up my mind how to work most
    16  effectively through this.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just think. Do you want to adjourn for five
    18  minutes?
    19  MR IRVING:  Alternatively, we could come back to this question
    20  on Friday, my Lord, which would give one whole day to look
    21  at the drawings and I could move on to the prewarming
    22  question, which is the next one logically. I would prefer
    23  to do that, frankly.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think, since we have reached the point of
    25  the drawings and we have just had that exchange, I would
    26  slightly prefer to do it now.

    .           P-156

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I ask something? There are some ways this could be
      2  helpful because I am not completely unprepared for this
      3  thing. I have two ex students of mine make on the basis
      4  of all the blueprints there was computer model of
      5  crematorium No. (ii). This is only on the basis of the
      6  blueprints and whatever is added is very clear. For
      7  example, the only thing which is added are the Zyklon-B
      8  introduction columns which are clearly not in the
      9  blueprints, and there was speculative depiction in one of
    10  them of how the hot air system would have worked. This is
    11  all prepared. I have slides of this whole reconstruction
    12  by which we can actually translate the blueprints into
    13  something which laymen in architecture can read. I have
    14  them also as pictures that were printed out.
    15  On Friday, with always the blueprint right next
    16  to it, I could give there was complete presentation of
    17  this building to show the important things which would
    18  maybe help your Lordship to get quicker into the gist of
    19  things. It is something I am prepared to do. I can do it
    20  without it, but it will be more of there was struggle to
    21  do without it.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, do you have any objection to that
    23  being done as an exercise?
    24  MR RAMPTON:  That is what I would have proposed, my Lord.
    25  Given what I would submit is the relative collapse of the
    26  eyewitness evidence in relation to this building —-

    .           P-157

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just answer the question. Do not worry about
      2  the eyewitness evidence.
      3  MR IRVING:  Then the answer is yes I think it would be very
      4  fair to Professor van Pelt.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We will do that on Friday.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In forms of slides or with the pictures?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whichever is easier. Mr Irving is happy you
      8  should do it, so you do it in whichever way is the more
      9  informative for the court.
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would like to do it then in slide form since it is a
    11  more public thing and I can point at things on the screen
    12  and it is always clear to what I am pointing.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you are happy with that, Mr Irving?
    14  MR IRVING:  Provided it goes strictly to the issues that we
    15  have delineated. The Professor said that there were there
    16  was number of points which, taken in conjunction,
    17  substantiate his beliefs and we do not just have a general
    18  cook’s tour of the building.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. This is designed to show that the
    20  blueprints have pointers within them which suggest the use
    21  of that chamber was as there was gas chamber.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    23  MR IRVING:  That can only be there was useful exercise. So we
    24  will leave the drawings for the moment, Professor, and we
    25  will continue just briefly with the documentary evidence.
    26  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, again, I am puzzled. Mr Irving seems to

    .           P-158

      1  be under the impression that there were only two relevant
      2  eyewitness accounts so far as this witness is concerned.
      3  I am there was bit bothered by that. I could come back to
      4  it in re-examination but I think there may be a
      5  misunderstanding — Mr Irving said it several times —
      6  between Mr Professor van Pelt and Mr Irving.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think Professor van Pelt has identified
      8  five camp officials. I think we all know that there are
      9  others.
    10  MR RAMPTON:  Yes.

    Section 159.12 to 173.4

    11  MR IRVING:  These are the five principal ones on which he rests
    12  his case as far as the eyewitness are concerned and I do
    13  apologise if I gave the impression that I had only
    14  demolished two of them.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us leave the debating points on one side
    16  and press on with the cross-examination croaks.
    17  MR IRVING:  Professor van Pelt, prewarming of the mortuary.
    18  You have rightly raised your eyebrows on that and said
    19  this surely has there was sinister purpose. Have
    20  I summarized your position correctly?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Shall we get the document maybe? It is in the bundle.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  K 2.
    24  MR RAMPTON:  Yes, tab 4 of K 2.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  It is page 39, my Lord, in the handwriting.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.

    .           P-159

      1  MR IRVING:  This is there was letter from Auschwitz to the Topf
      2  company, is it not?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. It is there was letter sent on 6th March 1943, which
      4  is a little over there was week before the building is
      5  really taken into use.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Would you like to translate the first paragraph, or shall
      7  I? On the basis of your proposal this agency or this
      8  office is in agreement that the basement No. 1, this is
      9  the mortuary No. 1 with the collapsed roof, is that
    10  correct?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Should be prewarmed with the exhaust air from the spaces
    13  of the three extractor fans. Would that be correct?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. Probably it is there was forced draft, yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: They are going to have some kind of heat exchanger so that
    16  they can take heat from the furnaces in some way?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I can explain very simply what happens is that the
    18  ovens are connected to the chimney — this was Topf’s
    19  idea — in order to get there was better draft from the
    20  ovens to the chimney, they thought to actually — there
    21  are five ovens and then there is the waste incineration
    22  oven which was never built, to have one ventilator at
    23  every two ovens which was going to basically suck the
    24  smoke out of the oven into the chimney to put there was
    25  ventilator there. These ventilators were placed in small
    26  rooms. The idea is that of course there is going to be an

    .           P-160

      1  incredible heat built up in these ventilators because the
      2  smoke is very hot, that you could regenerate, and there
      3  were other plans also, that heat. This particular
      4  proposal is to use the heat built up in these little rooms
      5  in which the ventilators are, to bring that back into
      6  morgue number 1.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: There was lot of the documents in fact do indicate there
      8  was desire to conserve energy, do they not? To extract
      9  the energy from the incineration plant and this kind of
    10  thing, use it for boiling water for the showers and so
    11  on? Am I right?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. There are there some proposals.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: What concerns you about the prewarming? Why should this
    14  room not be prewarmed, the mortuary?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: What concerns me of course is that one would want to keep
    16  the morgue cool, and that to actually blow hot air into
    17  there was morgue does not make much sense if the space is
    18  going to be used as a morgue.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is this your considered opinion as an architect, or as an
    20  historian, or as an archeologist?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: As there was person who has common sense.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Bodies are cold, so why bother to warm them? Is that
    23  roughly it?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is one of the reasons. You see, the practice in
    25  Auschwitz was that one has these underground gas chambers
    26  which are well insulated because they are covered with

    .           P-161

      1  earth, and that in these spaces there is there was more or
      2  less even temperature, as it was mostly in basements, and
      3  you get there was cool environment in which you store the
      4  bodies, and the bodies will not further deteriorate, or
      5  faster than necessary.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suppose also one might say what is the
      7  point of warming the room if the people in there are going
      8  to be murdered and then they are going to be burnt?
      9  MR IRVING:  My Lord, shortly all will be revealed.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let me get the answer first.
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The reason that this is problematic is that Zyklon-B,
    12  sorry hydrogen cyanide, will evaporate faster the warmer
    13  the room is.
    14  MR IRVING:  Right.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So the killing of people in that room would be faster.
    16  MR IRVING:  It is common sense that you would not want to warm
    17  a mortuary?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I add something to this remark? It is not necessary.
    19  Even freezing temperatures you can just spread Zyklon B on
    20  the floor of a building and it will evaporate, but it goes
    21  slower. One of the particular elements of the standard
    22  Degesch delousing chamber, the ten cubic metre one, was
    23  that they could also be supplied not necessarily, but
    24  could be supplied with there was particular little heating
    25  element which was more or less like there was hair blow
    26  drier, and that the Zyklon-B tin was placed in the kind of

    .           P-162

      1  holder. Then from the outside there was there was tin
      2  opener, and then, as the Zyklon fell, it came down on
      3  there was little dish and this hot air was being blown
      4  over that dish. So the evaporation would be faster.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: All very interesting, but assuming that the homicidal
      6  theory is correct, you are going to have 2,000 human
      7  beings stuffed into this room and, as we know from the
      8  design of the Millennium Dome, human beings heat up
      9  spaces. They does not need heaters, do they?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That was the experience in Auschwitz. Throughout the
    11  winter of 1942 they were gassing in bunker No. 2 and they
    12  did not need any heating.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are not dealing with that. We are dealing with this
    14  particular bunker at present and the answer is, in other
    15  words, if your theory was correct, they would not need the
    16  heating. But that is not the particular path I am going
    17  down.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I comment on this?
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes of course.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Briefly.
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The issue seems to be that we are talking here about
    22  making the process more efficient.
    23  MR IRVING:  Speeding it up?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Speeding it up.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: In and out rapidly?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.

    .           P-163

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: This building was a very expensive building, was it not?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I think the budget around was 280,000/300,000 marks.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is far more expensive to build underground rooms of any
      4  kind, is it not, than to build the same room above ground?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It depends of course what room we are talking about, but
      6  you need to do excavation in general for a building.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: It needs special tanking, does it not, and special
      8  drainage provisions and all sorts of special — it roughly
      9  increases the price by four or five fold to have the same
    10  things sunk into the ground. Am I right?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Again, it is quite often difficult to build there was room
    12  above the ground than building under the ground, but of
    13  course you need to have some vapour barriers and other
    14  things. You need to keep the water out. I presume that,
    15  if one would build that room above the ground without any
    16  basement under, without any normal foundation there, it
    17  would probably be cheaper to build it above the ground.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: So the Nazis had some reason for building these two
    19  chambers underground rather than at ground level?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The reason that they were built underground is because
    21  they were morgues. You see, the big problem was that, if
    22  you built a large crematorium as crematorium (ii), you get
    23  an incredible heat built up in the incineration room. So
    24  one of the things you have to do is to have the morgue at
    25  some distance from that.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: And at right angles and so on, yes.

    .           P-164

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The second thing is that the incinerators are very heavy,
      2  which means you cannot have a basement under the
      3  incinerators. So, if you want to have a morgue and you
      4  want to have preferably in a basement because there are
      5  less temperature differences in the basement, it is a more
      6  stable temperature environment, then of course you build
      7  them underground and not under the incineration room. It
      8  is the reason that these two morgues jut out from the
      9  building.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Hold it there for a moment, Professor. The building was
    11  built to the best building specifications. Because they
    12  were the SS, they were not able to wangle their way round
    13  the local building inspector, were they? They had to
    14  comply with the local building regulations?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: For crematorium (ii), which was designed in 41 and it was
    16  designed in Berlin, it was there was design which
    17  ultimately came down to Auschwitz. Crematorium (ii) in
    18  relationship to the major elements of there was morgue did
    19  follow the rules.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: They would not be allowed to start this building up. They
    21  would not be allowed to operate it for whatever purpose it
    22  was operated unless it had passed all the regulations,
    23  unless it complied with all the regulations. Even though
    24  they were the SS, and this was Auschwitz, and this was
    25  wartime, they still had to go by the book. They still had
    26  to comply with the red tape..

    .           P-165

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They went by the book. One of the things is that one
      2  always can get exemptions, like in any planning regulation
      3  you can always have a variance to the particular code but
      4  you have to apply for it.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Professor van Pelt, we are talking about going by the
      6  book. Is this the book that they would have gone by?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is not a building code of Germany, but this is there
      8  was design guideline which was available in the office,
      9  except in an earlier edition. This is the 1944 edition.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is book called Neufert, which is still the standard
    11  German building code, is it not?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is not there was building code. It is a guideline to
    13  architects of how to design, which means that, if you
    14  start a project and you want to know how large a minimum
    15  kitchen must be in which two people can still pass each
    16  other, you find the dimensions there.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is very useful indeed and it is going to be useful for
    18  the rest for the rest of the afternoon because, if we look
    19  in this guideline book as you call it to see what the
    20  architects at Auschwitz were being told was the correct
    21  way to design, that answers quite there was lot of the
    22  questions that have arisen, does it not?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is going to be something of there was problem
    24  because again, first of all, we are dealing with general
    25  guidelines and the general guidelines in Neufert only deal
    26  with there was civilian crematorium to be built in there

    .           P-166

      1  was city and it does not deal with there was crematorium
      2  designed either for specific circumstances outside the
      3  civilian context.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: But the basic principles of design are going to be same,
      5  are they not?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: On some elements they will and on some elements they will
      7  not. There are some things which you need in a civilian
      8  crematorium which you will not need in one which
      9  ultimately is going to be built and which will not be
    10  ruled by the building code.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: But most people who went into SS uniform and worked in
    12  these offices were architects or engineers in civil life
    13  like Kammler. He was an engineer and they just happened
    14  to be wearing SS uniform. They knew what the rules were
    15  and they knew the codes.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I object to your use of the words, the rules and the
    17  codes. Neufert is not the code. Neufert is a general
    18  guideline created by one architect to help other
    19  architects to get going on the job.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Will you tell the court if there was a copy of Neufert in
    21  the SS construction office at Auschwitz?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There was a copy of Neufert in the SS construction office.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: Why did they have that if they did not feel that it was a
    24  good idea to follow what Neufert’s guidelines were?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Neufert has a lot of very useful information. I am very
    26  happy to go with you through the diagram which Neufert

    .           P-167

      1  provides for the civilian crematorium.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is not the diagrams I am looking at. Would you turn to
      3  page 271 of your copy of Neufert, if you have it there?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. I do not know if the judge has a copy?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not.
      6  MR IRVING:  I will translate it or Professor van Pelt can
      7  translate the appropriate paragraph if your Lordship
      8  permits. Does your Lordship consider it to be a useful
      9  line?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not know what the points that you are
    11  going to make are.
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 271.
    13  MR IRVING:  Your Lordship will remember we are dealing with the
    14  question whether the warming of a mortuary was appropriate
    15  or not, which I have to confess I, with all my common
    16  sense, would have thought completely absurd. If you look
    17  at the part where it comes to friedhurf und crematorium,
    18  that is the right hand page, which means crematoria and
    19  graveyards.
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Graveyards and crematoria. You make the same mistake now
    21  as I made in the horizon movie, Mr Irving.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: The third paragraph down begins (German spoken – document
    23  not provided).
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: The temperature in the mortuary to be above or equal to
    26  two degrees and below or equal to 12 degrees, never under,

    .           P-168

      1  because frost causes the corpses to expand and burst.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then it continues to talk about using the —-
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us go to the next sentence.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: — central heating?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us go to the next sentence now because the next
      7  sentence is also important. (German spoken – document not
      8  provided) which means —-
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Central heating?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Not the central heating.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: Central heating and cooling, air conditioning?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: And air conditioning, yes. This temperature must be kept
    13  —-
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: Above all in summer.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — must be kept steady with constant ventilation,
    16  especially in the summer.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are not concerned with summer here. We are talking
    18  about Poland, which gets notoriously cold in the winter.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The point which is here is that the next sentence says
    20  there should be at a certain moment in this case some
    21  heating and cooling installation in this building, yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I will leave it to you. You will spring another trap on
    24  me right now and then I will try to answer it.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: No. This is not a trap. We are trying to educate the
    26  court. I have to admit that I have learned a lot out of

    .           P-169

      1  Neufert as I went along as well. But I think I have made
      2  the point that the provision of heating in a mortuary is a
      3  requirement, at least by the guidelines which were
      4  standard in all German architects’ offices at that time,
      5  and no special significance can be read into the fact that
      6  they were trying to it in a cost effective way by using
      7  heat from the incinerators.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If that were to be the case, the heating installation
      9  would have been included in the original design of the
    10  crematorium. It is not. What actually it says here is
    11  why, why do you want to be able to keep the temperature of
    12  the morgue in that range of 2 to 12 degrees? It is
    13  because the corpses still have to be viewed by the people
    14  who are basically the family members. If we look at the
    15  diagram, I am very sorry, my Lord. I have a diagram and
    16  you do not, but there is actually a diagram which shows
    17  that there is a Leichenshauraum, which means a room to
    18  show or to look at the corpse. So this is a very usual
    19  thing in a crematorium. The body is stored. It happened
    20  to us very recently in my family. You go and before the
    21  final cremation you still have an opportunity to look at
    22  the corpse. You do not want to look at the corpse where
    23  ultimately frost has destroyed the corpse. This is the
    24  purpose for that particular thing. It has nothing to do
    25  with the mechanics or the physics of incineration. It has
    26  to do with a certain sense of decorum.

    .           P-170

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: The fact remains, does it not, that the guidelines say
      2  mortuaries have to be warmed and they are going to have
      3  the local building inspector from Kattowitz or Cracow
      4  coming round and he is going to say, ‘ Oy, you have not
      5  got heating in here, cannot switch on until you have the
      6  heating fixed”?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The fact of the matter, my Lord, is that these are merely
      8  guidelines. If the guidelines in Neufert had been
      9  followed by the Auschwitz central building office, they
    10  would have included the heating for the heating system and
    11  also probably the cooling system for the morgue from the
    12  beginning in the design. This has not been done. For a
    13  year and a half this design has been developed without any
    14  ability whatsoever to bring any heat in that morgue so it
    15  is absolutely, I think, nonsense to suggest that, with
    16  this Neufert in mind, the Auschwitz architects were
    17  designing their morgues.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  By March 1943 how far advanced was the
    19  construction of crematoria (ii) and (iii)?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The building was finished and the design started in
    21  October 1941.
    22  MR IRVING:  They could not switch it on because they had not
    23  made provision for the heating at this point.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They had forgotten it, but the inspector in Kattowitz
    25  obviously had also overlooked this one issue.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: But the burden of the letter of course says this is a very

    .           P-171

      1  cost effective way of doing the heating. It is not saying
      2  you have forgotten the heating, it is saying let’s do it
      3  by this way because that is going to save the Reich money
      4  or fuel or whatever.
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Please, Mr Irving, show me any other letter. I have never
      6  seen one. I am under oath, I understand, here. I have
      7  never seen any other letter talking about bringing any
      8  heating, any hot air, or any other means of heating into
      9  the morgue.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: But fact remains that mortuaries have to be warmed, so our
    11  common sense for once is wrong. The audience is wrong in
    12  this particular question. The book gets it right. The
    13  book says it has to be kept in a range of temperatures
    14  between 2 degrees and 12 degrees, either by heating or by
    15  cooling.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What about crematoria 4 and 5? Was there any
    17  heating provided for that?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There were stoves in crematoria 4 and 5.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That was how they heated them?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, no cooling installation.
    21  MR IRVING:  Would you now turn to page 255, please? We have
    22  now left the heating element.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Sorry, my Lord, I would like to come back to this answer
    24  because I have made a mistake. The “them” you refer to
    25  were probably morgues. I refer to the gas chambers of
    26  crematoria 4 and 5.

    .           P-172

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was referring to the morgues or the
      2  mortuaries, yes. Did they have any heating?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There was a mortuary in crematoria 4 and 5 and they did
      4  not have any heating.

    Section 173.5 to 189.16

      5  MR IRVING:  Will you now turn to page 255 of the architects
      6  guidelines?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: This shows halfway down on the right things that are
      9  needed for air raid shelters. Does this show a door
    10  opening outwards? Can you see the metal gas tight door
    11  with the typical heavy handles?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Can you refer me to the particular passage?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Page 255, on the page called Luftshutz air raid protection
    14  ARP, and it has various sketched layouts of air raid
    15  shelters and various air raid protection installations.
    16  I am sorry, my Lord, I should have provided you with a
    17  copy.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am following.
    19  MR IRVING:  Do you agree that that shows a steel door or a door
    20  of some heavy substance designed to open outwards with
    21  handles on the outside?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not see any steel door. That is the problem. Oh
    23  there is a door.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Two of them?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. That is one.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: (German spoken – document not provided) 4104. They

    .           P-173

      1  actually had a German standard, the equivalent of British
      2  standard, what a standard gas tight door looked like. I
      3  will make an enlargement of this and provide it to your
      4  Lordship because it is exactly like the doors that
      5  I believe the other side will produce pictures of.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: OK. It is unclear to see what is in and out in this
      7  drawing. To be very honest, if this door is hung on the
      8  inside — again it is a very technical matter and I am
      9  uncomfortable discussing this without you actually seeing
    10  the picture.
    11  MR RAMPTON:  I am also a bit uncomfortable trying to follow a
    12  cross-examination when I do not have the document.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know, but let us try and do the best we
    14  can?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Shall I draw what actually the picture shows and then I
    16  think we have a very quick answer.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You are saying that the drawing is equivocal
    18  about whether it opens inwards or outwards?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. It shows that this door actually turns towards the
    20  inside and there is a very easy way to substantiate that.
    21  MR IRVING:  Do you wish to explain why.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. If you want to, yes, do.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The door is on the inside of the wall, so there is a wall
    24  and the question is where would the door be hung. I am
    25  trying to think this through.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot see that that would affect which way

    .           P-174

      1  it opened, but maybe I am missing something.
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I draw it?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, of course.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have in my bag a lot of air raid shelter designs in
      5  Auschwitz. So there is a wall right here. There is a
      6  wall right there, and then the door is hung sitting right
      7  here, and the door is like that. The implication of
      8  course is that the door opens like that.
      9  MR IRVING:  It is not going to open any other way.
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: It is going to come up against—-
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I just want to say that I am talking here, just trying to
    13  think out loud. I do not have anything more right now
    14  about it.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I know what you are going to say
    16  next.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have not seen this door and I have not inspected this
    18  particular shelter, but if indeed the door is fastened
    19  right here and right there, it would make sense to me to
    20  think that, if the hinges are right there, the hinges
    21  would be on the inside, not on the outside because, if
    22  they are on the outside, it would be easy to blast them
    23  off. That is all I can say right now if you want to
    24  determine what is inside and outside. I do not want to
    25  make any more specific statements on this. But we can
    26  look at documentation on doors and air raid shelter design

    .           P-175

      1  in Auschwitz and I am happy to do that to the court.
      2  MR IRVING:  That is the actual copy. I have marked it with an
      3  arrow, my Lord. You will see the door rests on rims on
      4  the outside of the wall.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.
      6  MR IRVING:  I did alert the defence to the fact that I was
      7  going to take an interest in Neufert and I enquired
      8  whether Professor van Pelt had a copy of Neufert. I am
      9  sorry, I did not alert them to the specific matters that
    10  I was going to raise. Finally, is there anything further
    11  you wish to say on the subject?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. I think it is very difficult to come to any
    13  conclusion right now on the basis of that drawing.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But common sense suggests that, if you have 4,000 pound
    15  bombs blasting outside a building, you do not want a door
    16  that is going to come flying open into your face?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not know. It is common sense that you do not want,
    18  if a building collapses and collapses over the air raid
    19  shelter, you do not want all the brick and rubble to be
    20  right in front of the door so you can never open the
    21  door. So you are inside there without able to leave.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I now in general ask you by what means the corpses
    23  were taken out of the gas chamber upstairs to the level
    24  where the furnaces were?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In crematorium (ii)?
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: In crematorium (ii) I am only interested in crematorium

    .           P-176

      1  (ii).
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I just have to redirect my mind.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am only interested in crematorium (ii) because that is
      4  where you said this was where the 500,000 people were
      5  killed. You called this the centre of the atrocity.
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They were brought up by elevator.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: They were carried up by elevator. It is difficult to say
      8  where it was, I suppose, is it not?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No it is actually quite easy. The elevator is right
    10  here. Actually the pit is still there.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: The pit is still there? Do you know anything about the
    12  dimensions of the elevator shaft?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It would be a little over, I would say, 2 metres 30, one
    14  side, maybe 1 metre 40, 50 in the other.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: In our language how many feet is that? Six or seven feet?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, eight feet by five feet, something like that.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Well 2 metres 30 is six feet, about seven feet.
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We can check it on the blueprints, so why do we not do
    19  that?
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is quite an important point, my Lord. This is the
    21  bottleneck. We are looking at the bottleneck now.
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We have actually the dimensions 2 metres 70 by 1 metre 43,
    23  so 2 metres 70. In the blueprints this is document 3B,
    24  tab 1, of the documents, it says in the enlargement to the
    25  right. So 143 would be 4 feet, 4 feet 10 inches and 2
    26  metres 70 would be —-

    .           P-177

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Eight feet?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, it would be 9 feet, 30 centimetres per foot.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: So, what, it is about as big as one of these table tops,
      4  is it, the shaft?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, 9 feet is longer than this table, and certainly it is
      6  much wider. This is less than a metre.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am just trying to get an idea. Of course, that is not
      8  the area of the floor space in elevator itself, is it?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The elevator, we can go back to the blueprint.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It says — the dimension is taken, the width is taken on
    12  the basis of the actual width of the platform. In the
    13  length I have to admit, at least in the design, the actual
    14  platform would have been slightly less than 2 metres 70.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Because of course you have got to have room for the
    16  counter weight to go up and down?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, the counter weight, there is a space for the counter
    18  weight right — it is spared out to the side towards
    19  morgue No. 1.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Although it is not in any of these designs, in the Neufert
    21  designs the counter weight comes down inside the shaft?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Are we referring to the plans of the crematorium or to
    23  Neufert?
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are saying there was an extra shaft to the counter
    25  weight?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is quite a substantial space, I would say probably

    .           P-178

      1  one foot and a half, at the side of the platforms through
      2  which the counter weight could go.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: Very well. So what was put into this? It was like a
      4  hospital lift, was it, in which bodies put or how would it
      5  normally be designed if this operating as a mortuary, what
      6  kind of insulation? Would a gurney or stretcher be
      7  wheeled in there carrying the bodies if it was a normal
      8  mortuary?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have no idea how lifts in normal mortuaries are. The
    10  information says “auf Zug”, I presume that in this case
    11  this was designed for this building. This building
    12  obviously deals with mass mortality one way or another.
    13  So I think it is very unlikely that a gurney would have
    14  been wheeled into this thing, because I would not know why
    15  you would bring out a gurney into this morgue, and then
    16  load it on a gurney, put the gurney in the elevator and
    17  then immediately burn the body upstairs in a mass
    18  incineration facility.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: First of all, we will start with the normal mortuary
    20  design because this was presumably a standard mortuary
    21  design which has been adapted for special conditions?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, Mr Irving, this is standard mortuary design. This is
    23  a rather unique mortuary design, probably unique in the
    24  world, in the history, no, it is not a standard.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: But it was designed as a mortuary?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Sorry, I stated it wrongly. You said “mortuary”

    .           P-179

      1  I meant —-
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: The entire building was —-
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — crematorium.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: — was originally designed for the purpose of acting as a
      5  joint mortuary crematorium?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But this crematorium was of a size and a capacity which
      7  has absolutely no precedent at all, or for that matter has
      8  never been followed by a crematorium of this size ever.
      9  There is no civilian crematorium at all of this size. The
    10  largest civilian crematorium so far as I know had three
    11  single muffle ovens and never had something like 15 muffle
    12  ovens.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was that in wartime or in peacetime?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: In Germany people built in peacetime and destroy in
    15  wartime. It is very unusual to build these kind of
    16  buildings in wartime.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You appreciate, do you not, that that lift shaft was
    18  the bottleneck through which all the victims of the
    19  Holocaust had to go, if we follow the standard version?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think most of the victims in the Holocaust died outside
    21  Auschwitz. So at least —-
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: These 500,000 you talk about?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — these people who went through that lift, that would
    24  have been a bottleneck between gassing and incineration.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: I appreciate your earlier point. Of course far more
    26  people died than those 500,000 and I have never challenged

    .           P-180

      1  that point, let there be no doubt about that. We are
      2  looking at this building where, as you yourself said, more
      3  people died in this gas chamber than in any in other place
      4  on earth?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But bottleneck, of course, the bottleneck of course — if
      6  there is going to be a bottleneck, let us say this door is
      7  going to be a bottleneck, a real serious bottleneck, if
      8  somebody screams “fire” in this room and we all try to get
      9  out as quickly as possible and some do not notice there is
    10  another room, another exit which says “fire exit” there,
    11  but if people file out, as they do at the end of these
    12  sessions, in a relatively orderly fashion, this is not a
    13  bottleneck.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: If everyone here is dead, then they have a problem, then
    15  things slow down?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But the question is, the issue is, is it a bottleneck,
    17  also has to be considered in relationship to how long it
    18  will take to incinerate those bodies. So if at a certain
    19  moment it would take, let us say, 20 hours to incinerate
    20  the bodies of the people who have been gassed in the
    21  morgue, you have 20 hours to move the bodies upstairs. So
    22  then question is over that time would there be a
    23  bottleneck, yes or no, because the incineration room
    24  upstairs cannot also take all the 1500 bodies, whatever
    25  number of people were gassed downstairs. So only if you
    26  want to get all the bodies up simultaneously is this going

    .           P-181

      1  to be a serious bottleneck.
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: So they used the mortuary, however the people died, for
      3  the time being as a mortuary then?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I mean corpses were removed in small batches from the
      5  mortuary to the incineration room to feed the
      6  incinerators.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Can we get some idea of the speed of the operation,
      8  because your eyewitnesses differ, do they not, as to how
      9  frequently this procedure was repeated?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Which procedure?
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: The liquidation procedure, people being rammed into the
    12  gas chamber 2,000 at a time. We are looking at figures
    13  basically here. We not concerned with the “if”. We are
    14  looking at how many.
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Again I am happy to discuss these testimonies when I have
    16  them in front of me. I thought we were talking about the
    17  elevator right now.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: We are talking about the elevator. If the people are
    19  being rammed in at one time into the gas chamber and they
    20  are being liquidated and then they are being taken out
    21  through that one exit, up that relatively small lift
    22  shaft, this is the bottleneck which is going to be like
    23  the bottleneck in an hour glass. You cannot speed up the
    24  process?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But the bottleneck in an hour glass is only a bottleneck
    26  if you want all the sand to go down simultaneously. If

    .           P-182

      1  you want the sand to go down in an hour it is not a
      2  bottleneck.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: But it is a controlling factor on the speed of the whole
      4  liquidation programme, is it not?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But there are much more important factors like the speed
      6  of incineration in the ovens.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: You say it is more important, but let us look at the
      8  elevator. To make it absolutely plain, there was no other
      9  way of bringing the bodies from downstairs up to the
    10  furnace stage level?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is another way. You could take the stairs, but that
    12  would have been very, very —-
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: But that was not used?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: — it would be very inefficient and awkward.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I presume that a question is coming.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am presuming. I am waiting for it.
    18  MR IRVING:  Yes. What do we know about the carrying capacity
    19  of that elevator?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is a document for that. The elevator, this document
    21  in March for that, I think it is March 1943, they carried
    22  the original one which was installed for 750 kilos.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: 750 kilos.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: They immediately asked to increase the carrying capacity
    25  of that elevator by providing extra cables to 1500 kilos.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: What do we know about the provision of the motors for

    .           P-183

      1  those elevators?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Again I do not want to talk about that right now. I do
      3  not have the document. But I do know, because I actually
      4  looked it up this morning, that they were adapting that
      5  particular — it was a temporary elevator — to a weight,
      6  to a carrying load of 1500 kilos. So I presume if they do
      7  that, that indeed there is a motor which will be able to
      8  hoist 1500 kilos.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: This was made by Daemarg, I believe, the company?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: The provisional one. Why was there a provisional one
    12  installed, because the final ones were not ready?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Because the SS, despite whatever they were doing in
    14  Auschwitz, were unable to get an elevator in early 1943.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: They could not get the priority.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, carrying a load of 1500 kilos, that
    17  would be how many corpses?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: An average one 60 kilos. It seems a little high, by that
    19  would be — the theoretical carrying capacity would be,
    20  let us say, 20 corpses, so that would be 20, 25 corpses.
    21  MR IRVING:  The same question of course is how many people you
    22  can pack into a telephone box, but packing them in takes
    23  time. It would be difficult to envisage having a working
    24  lift system with people piled four or five or six or seven
    25  high, because quite simply the doors would not close?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There were no doors.

    .           P-184

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: There were no doors?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. It was simply a platform which went up and down.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: That would be even worse then. The bodies would
      4  presumably get jammed against the side of the lift shaft
      5  if they piled them too high. I am just looking at
      6  practicalities here, that although technically the final
      7  version of the lift, and I emphasise that, was going to
      8  have the 1500 kilogram capacity, in theory, when was that
      9  lift actually installed?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The 750 kilograms was installed by the time the building
    11  was finished and immediately they asked to double the
    12  capacity the oven.
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: And the 1500 one was not of course installed at this
    14  time?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It was not immediately, but they asked immediately for the
    16  increase in the carrying capacity. So obviously they
    17  wanted, whatever they were bringing up from the morgue,
    18  they probably wanted, they felt they needed more capacity
    19  for this lift.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It was not in fact installed until the end of 1943,
    21  the bigger the one?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The final one, no. This is only a modification to add
    23  extra cables. This is not the final elevator which is put
    24  in when finally the factory gets around to deliver them.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Is it not odd that once again the question arises here,
    26  that here is one of the most important killing centres in

    .           P-185

      1  the Third Reich and they just cannot get the stuff, they
      2  are not getting the priorities?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we stick to one point at a time? You
      4  are on whether this was a bottleneck.
      5  MR IRVING:  Can we now look at how long it took to make one
      6  round trip and load up? Have you any estimate of how many
      7  minutes or seconds it would take?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: To load up how many corpses?
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, this is the question. You have told us that it
    10  would take a large number of corpses, but I find this hard
    11  to believe if they had no doors and walls on this lift; it
    12  was just a platform going up and down?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think there are too many variables right now to stand
    14  here in court. I am happy to sit down and, like the
    15  Zyklon-B, spend a couple of days considering this
    16  question.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am not asking you to do that. I am just asking you to
    18  do a back-of-an-envelope calculation which will help us to
    19  form some idea of how long it would take to raise 2,000
    20  bodies from this underground morgue to the furnace level,
    21  bring them in, stack them on, raise them up, unload them
    22  at the top level, bring the thing down empty again and
    23  repeat the cycle?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not do a back-of-the-envelope and I would just want
    25  to do it as I am thinking out loud and nothing more. Let
    26  us say that it would take three to four minutes to load

    .           P-186

      1  this platform, that it takes another minute —-
      2  Q. [Mr Irving]: With how many? With how many bodies?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Let us 10 bodies, 15 bodies, three to four minutes. Let
      4  me just make a note of it as I am going on. Then let us
      5  say it takes one minute and that is a long time for this
      6  platform to go up one storey.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: No, because if it is a freight elevator in fact it takes
      8  twice as long. We know that from Neufert, do we not?
      9  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But we are talking one storey and we talk about a minute
    10  and a minute is a very long time.
    11  Q. [Mr Irving]: A freight elevator does go slower than a passenger
    12  elevator?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but we still talk about —-
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Come on much, not much turns on that, does
    15  it? We must keep an eye on realities.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: We talk about 2 metres 50. We talk about 8 feet going
    17  up. Let us say it is another three, and I am very, very
    18  generous, you know, three, whatever, two, I mean less, one
    19  minute to unload the thing.
    20  MR IRVING:  One minute to unload ten bodies?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. A minute is a long time.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is being very generous. I would suggest that the
    23  round trip, loading and unloading, would take about ten
    24  minutes each time?
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Ten minutes. So?
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: Then we have 2,000 bodies to process in this manner.

    .           P-187

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So in your calculation we have, and I am slightly
      2  disgusted right now by the thing I have to do, but —-
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: These are very rough calculations, but I am suggesting
      4  that we have a serious bottleneck which indicates that the
      5  figures that talk about have been inflated. I am only
      6  looking here at the figures. I am not looking at whether
      7  this happened or not.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is going a little fast for me, my Lord, right now.
      9  I am happy to come back to this on Friday.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you prefer to, as it is a new point to
    11  you.
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am just trying to calculate in my head on the 10-minute
    13  basis, and, let us say we, what did we say, 10, 15 corpses
    14  on the thing, it would mean that in 10 minutes you
    15  get —-
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: 10 to 15.
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It is one —-
    18  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I think it would be useful if he was to
    19  return to this after he has had time to do a calculation.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you prefer.
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I would prefer to do that, because I think it seems
    22  to be a very important point.
    23  MR IRVING:  It is a useful exercise. It is bottleneck in the
    24  operation which does give us a chance of arriving at some
    25  kind of concrete results.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I would of course be quite pleased if somebody who knows,

    .           P-188

      1  if we got some more specific data about, you know, how
      2  long it would take for this elevator to come up, because
      3  obviously if we are 50 per cent wrong, then we suddenly
      4  have the bottleneck and there cease to be a bottleneck or
      5  not.
      6  Q. [Mr Irving]: Just as in the calculation you made earlier on the Zyklon
      7  use?
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I took a very generous, very generous I think amounts for
      9  delousing.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: We have those figures and I will supply them to you within
    11  the next 24 hours, the actual carrying capacity of the
    12  lifts, the various models, the size and so on and the
    13  actual speed in minutes and seconds that it would take to
    14  lift that distance.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are comimg back to that on Friday. So let
    16  us leave that and get on.

    Section 189.17 to 215.21

    17  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I just want to conclude by putting a
    18  number of general questions to the witness, if I may,
    19  which is, you will be glad to hear, off these very, very
    20  minute questions in the broadest possible terms now.
    21  You had a colleague working with on your book,
    22  did you not, Deborah Dwork?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: She is now a very famous Professor, is she not, at the
    25  Clark University? She has a Chair of Holocaust studies?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Holocaust history.

    .           P-189

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Holocaust history. Without wanting to sound tasteless
      2  about it, it has become quite an industry, a very well
      3  funded industry, has it not, this Holocaust education
      4  business? She writes in her own papers that she has
      5  received $5 million a year for funding her Chair and very
      6  enterprises?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: She has been able to set up this Institute by this money
      8  donated by various donors, yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: I am only asking these questions because you re one of the
    10  world’s leading Holocaust scholars and you are probably in
    11  the best position to educate the court about these
    12  matters. It has become big business and it is not just
    13  I who say this; a number of other far more learned people
    14  than I myself have said this. The Chief Rabbi of England
    15  said it once.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I think that I am here as an expert on
    17  Auschwitz. If you want to have testimony as a member of
    18  the general public, and I am not one of the chief
    19  Holocaust historians, I am actually a cultural historian
    20  who was worked on Auschwitz, as a member of the general
    21  public I can answer. I do not know if the Judge will be
    22  very interested in my opinion.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am interpreting this question as suggesting
    24  that your co-author was, effectively, delivering the goods
    25  on the Holocaust, that is to say exaggerating it, because
    26  she was being paid so well to do so.

    .           P-190

      1  MR IRVING:  This is a very tactful way of putting it, my Lord.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was not intended to be particularly
      3  tactful.
      4  MR IRVING:  This was the inference I am trying to draw. I am
      5  trying to find the justification for the word that is
      6  frequently used about my own endeavours as being
      7  “dangerous”. To what or whom am I being a danger? The
      8  only interpretation I can put on it is the fact that I am
      9  endangering people like Deborah Dwork who have made it
    10  quite a lucrative business, if one can regard being in
    11  education as being a business. Certainly she makes $5
    12  million a year for her Holocaust centre out of the
    13  Holocaust and the history of the Holocaust and teaching
    14  the Holocaust. There are all sorts of profitable side
    15  lines in publication of books and so on. This is what
    16  makes me into a danger, apparently, that if it turns out
    17  that this building here has no holes in the roof, then a
    18  large number of eyewitnesses have lied, and the whole mass
    19  extermination chamber part of the story collapses as
    20  securely as that roof has done.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does Professor Dwork manipulate the evidence
    22  because she is making so much money out of her Chair?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I will take your guidance on what I should answer and what
    24  not.
    25  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Answer it shortly.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I point out, first of all, that this is money she

    .           P-191

      1  raises for the Institute.
      2  MR IRVING:  It is not for herself personally of course. I made
      3  that quite plain.
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. This is money which is raised to create Chairs. To
      5  provide students with scholarships, to build up a
      6  library. So in that sense I do not think that Professor
      7  Dwork at all profits from this. I also would like to
      8  point out that when Professor Dwork wrote this book with
      9  me, Professor Dwork was not a Professor of Holocaust
    10  history at Clark University. That in fact the sum total
    11  of support we got for this project to write the book on
    12  Auschwitz was 40,000 Canadian dollars which translates at
    13  the moment to £15,000 which I got from the Canadian
    14  Government, and that is all the support that went into
    15  writing that book.
    16  MR IRVING:  The obvious question then is would she have been
    17  given a Chair in anything if she had not written the book,
    18  let us put it that way round?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, I do not see it is relevant. If you think it is
    20  relevant I will answer the question.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It has a sort of a relevance but not in terms
    22  of your evidence.
    23  MR IRVING:  Yes. I will abandon that line of argument, my
    24  Lord. I just wanted to establish the fact somehow that
    25  I am considered to be danger to something, and the word
    26  danger is what puzzles me. I am not a member of the IRA.

    .           P-192

      1  I do not go round blowing up cars. So what am I danger
      2  to? I tried to put some flesh on to that particular
      3  matter.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right. Next general question.
      5  MR IRVING:  Next general question, have you had the opportunity
      6  to work in the Moscow archives? I do not know the answer
      7  to that.
      8  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have worked on the basis of the microfilms which were
      9  made at the same time that I had to work on this.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Have you worked in the national archives in
    11  Washington?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I have been once there, but not really. I have not really
    13  worked in the national archives.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: That really surprises me. You aware, of course, that the
    15  national archives in Washington have I suppose the largest
    16  collection of captured German records including in
    17  relation to the SS and Auschwitz?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I am aware of that, and also I am aware that many of
    19  them have been made available. I am aware of the fact
    20  that one uses the archives which are useful for one’s
    21  work. It happens to be that the archives, you know, when
    22  one works as an historian there are various particular
    23  things one researches for which one needs to go to the
    24  archives, because the documents are not available and one
    25  wants to see those particular archives. You want to see
    26  the documents in situ. In this case these are the

    .           P-193

      1  Auschwitz construction documents. Very important in my
      2  book, or in our book since the name of Deborah Dwork has
      3  been mentioned now, was the archive in Koblenz and to a
      4  lesser extent — this is the German Federal archive in
      5  Koblenz and to a lesser extent, for example, the Berlin
      6  Document Centre and the archives of the court in Vienna.
      7  These were the archives where the unpublished documents
      8  were all stored. For other things, more general
      9  information, I rely sometimes on documents as they are
    10  produced in facsimile and sometimes even on documents as
    11  they are —-
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: Can I halt this avalanche just there? We are still at the
    13  national archives in Washington. In May 1997 I believe I
    14  wrote you quite a lengthy letter?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: You wrote it. I never received it. Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Irving]: You never received this letter I wrote to you?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What did it say?
    18  MR IRVING:  It is a six-page peon of praise of his book, my
    19  Lord, drawing his attention to certain documents and
    20  archives and inviting his comment on matters of history,
    21  in the way that an historian should. I wrote to him —
    22  your address is and always has been at all relevant times
    23  presumably the Head of the Department of History?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I am not.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: But you have been at the University Waterloo, have you
    26  not?

    .           P-194

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, but I am in the architectural school. I am not in
      2  the Department of History.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: If a letter is addressed to you at the University of
      4  Waterloo and properly stamped and posted, then there is
      5  every likelihood that it will reach you, is there not?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I can only tell, and I am still under oath, that I never
      7  received this letter.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is one question I am not going to
      9  decide.
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I only learned of it a year ago when people pointed it out
    11  to me on the web.
    12  MR IRVING:  Are you aware that that letter has been posted on
    13  my web site for the last two years?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It happens that I am not very experienced with the web.
    15  Only somebody told me last year when I was already started
    16  to get involved in this case that it was posted on the
    17  web, and of course since I was already engaged on actually
    18  starting to work on this there was no way I could respond
    19  to it.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: Are you going to make complaints at the University of
    21  Waterloo that letters properly addressed to you, properly
    22  addressed to your department, are not —-
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we have all got other things to worry
    24  about than this wretched letter, if I may say so.
    25  MR IRVING:  Very well. Is it not a pity that the letter did
    26  not reach you in view of the fact that it contained

    .           P-195

      1  pointers to historical records that would have been of the
      2  utmost most information and assistance to you?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The book was published in 1996. So your letter is a year
      4  late after that. I do not know which particular documents
      5  you point to. If you want to provide me with a copy of
      6  the letter I will comment on these points.
      7  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is a copy of the letter in the bundle which I gave
      8  his Lordship yesterday. If I can summarize without
      9  looking for it, it drew your attention, for example, to
    10  the interrogations of Rudolf Hirst which up to that point
    11  you had made no attempt to read in the national archives
    12  in Washington. You had written the book about Auschwitz
    13  but you made no attempt to read the verbatim
    14  interrogations of the commandant of Auschwitz?
    15  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: May I point to your Lordship that these transcripts of the
    16  interrogations Rudolf Hirst were actually published in
    17  facsimile I think in 1970 and I did read those facsimile
    18  reproductions.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: And yet there is not a trace of them in your published
    20  volume?
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: But it seems to be that as one would want to use Rudolf
    22  Hirst as a source, and I did not use every single word
    23  Rudolf Hirst said. There are much better sources than the
    24  interrogations. For example, his later memoirs and his
    25  essay on the Final Solution which he wrote in Poland are,
    26  in fact, places where he himself tries to put he whole

    .           P-196

      1  thing together. Certainly the Auschwitz book was not a
      2  history of what happened to the formation of knowledge
      3  about Auschwitz after the war. I do not deal with hat in
      4  the book. I did deal with it in this book, as you know.
      5  So I do not think that you can draw any conclusion of what
      6  is included in the book of what I consulted or not
      7  consulted.
      8  Q. [Mr Irving]: Well, you gave very detailed footnotes indeed, did you
      9  not? You are writing a book about Auschwitz and yet you
    10  make no reference at all to having had in front of you, as
    11  you say, the entire transcripts of the integration of the
    12  Commandant?
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Mr Irving, I just want to ask you, if at a certain
    14  moment — I have looked in making this book at 10,000
    15  documents and ultimately I used 1,000 of them in the
    16  book. You are not going to write 9,000 footnotes of
    17  actually mentioning the documents which you have not used.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: I can sympathise with you because I am frequently in the
    19  same position, but sometimes there are collections of
    20  documents that are so important that I have to say you
    21  ought to have used them?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Then I am very happy I am not your graduate student.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let me try to break into this. My
    24  recollection is, I am probably wrong about, is that when
    25  you deal with Rudolf Hirst in your report you deal with
    26  the interrogations as well as what he says?

    .           P-197

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So where is this getting us? He was careless in the old
      3  days. That is the worst that can be said.
      4  MR IRVING:  Careless in the old days?
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before his report. His report takes account
      6  of the integration of Rudolf Hirst.
      7  MR IRVING:  But it also addresses the point of what attempts
      8  did I make to get further information. Here I have
      9  written a letter to one of the world’s leading historians
    10  on Auschwitz and the Holocaust, inviting comments, asking
    11  his assistance, drawing his attention to documents, in the
    12  way that colleages do, and Professor van Pelt says he
    13  never received the letter.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I can see that your sending the letter may
    15  have some limited relevance, but his response to it seems
    16  to be me absolutely irrelevant.
    17  MR IRVING:  I must admit, my Lord, that in asking these
    18  questions I was totally unprepared for the response that
    19  he had not received the letter.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Even if he said he had I do not think that it
    21  really matters what he did or did not do. Your point is,
    22  as I understand it, you wrote the letter, that shows that
    23  you were taking trouble to get your facts right.
    24  MR IRVING:  There is one residual point, my Lord, and this that
    25  your Lordship will remember from the expert evidence
    26  I think of Professor Evans, or possibly even from the

    .           P-198

      1  expert evidence of this witness, that I am accused of
      2  having concealed the Altemeyer report until the solicitors
      3  for the Defendants went and investigated, and once I knew
      4  that they were on the trail I therefore blurted out the
      5  fact that I had it, which is of course an imputation that
      6  I find repugnant and I wish to try to investigate that
      7  allegation in view of the fact that I drew his attention
      8  to the Altemeyer report in this letter back in May 1997.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then you ought to produce a copy of it.
    10  MR IRVING:  Of the letter? My Lord, it was in the little
    11  bundle I gave your Lordship yesterday or the day before.
    12  MR RAMPTON:  I think it is in J11 of your Lordship’s bundle.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  J11.
    14  MR RAMPTON:  Yes. I do not have a J so I cannot help.
    15  MR IRVING:  I think your Lordship is going to have the
    16  advantage on me. I can only rely on the letter as a fact
    17  because I do not have a copy here with me.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is in J11. I am just going to find
    19  the reference to Altemeyer. I have flipped through it and
    20  I have missed it.
    21  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think Mr Irving is right.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure he is right.
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I think he is right. Actually again I will only say after
    24  I actually see it, but I think that indeed I remember him,
    25  when I finally read the letter, since I wrote something of
    26  a response to it, I think he actually mentioned Altemeyer,

    .           P-199

      1  but I do not see it either in this copy.
      2  MR IRVING:  Will you now withdrawn the suggestion that I only
      3  made it known to people once it became known that the
      4  solicitors to the Defendants were on the trail.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That contains within it a number of assumptions, one
      6  of which is the assumption they were not on the trail as
      7  of May 1997. You are probably right.
      8  MR IRVING:  My Lord, the imputation is that I was going to sit
      9  on that document and look at the wall and whistle until
    10  I realized that Mishcon de Reya had got on the trail of
    11  that document.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I understand what the allegation is, but
    13  when did they get on the trail of Altemeyer?
    14  MR IRVING:  As a result of the evidence they found out about
    15  Altemeyer.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So long after May 1997?
    17  MR IRVING:  Presumably, my Lord, yes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot find Altemeyer.
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I found it. It is not numbered, but it is page 1. I do
    20  not know if we have the same format, 8: “Had you after
    21  visiting Washington”, the eighth page, second paragraph.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I must have a different version.
    23  MR IRVING:  It is the same version.
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I can read it to you.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Could you.
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is basically about all the things I did not do, but

    .           P-200

      1  it says: “Had you after visiting Washington flown on to
      2  London, England you could have used the many versions of
      3  the handwritten written memoirs of Hirst’s erstwhile stand
      4  in Deputy Court Altemeyer written under similar conditions
      5  of duress. He too was no doubt deservedly hanged by the
      6  Poles. These pencil papers are held at the Public Record
      7  office, but Altemeyer does not even figure in your
      8  history. Is not such an original document
      9  written … (reading to the words) … rights for payment
    10  for profit-driven publishers.”
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you. I want to track this down.
    12  I just want to see what the allegation is. It is in the
    13  Defendant’s Summary of Case presumably?
    14  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I believe it is in this witness’s
    15  evidence, am I right, that you made the allegation that
    16  I did not reveal the existence of the Altemeyer document
    17  until I realized that Mishcon de Reya were on the trail?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: From the discovery, and I think we can —-
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: That being so, my Lord, it was entirely proper for me to
    20  mention this document.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Entirely proper. I am just tracking down
    22  what the allegation was so I can see whether you are right
    23  in saying that it is completely unfounded. Altemeyer is
    24  dealt with at 657 of your report.
    25  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: 657?
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: That is one of the places.

    .           P-201

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is 1992. What I say here: “The discovery of the
      2  Altemeyer material brought Irving in a very difficult
      3  position. While publication of it would once more
      4  demonstrate his ability to find interesting new archival,
      5  publication would discredit him as an analytical
      6  historian. Faced with this dilemma, Irving decided to do
      7  nothing. Suppressing his discovery, he buried a reference
      8  to it in a footnote of his book on Nuremberg”, which is in
      9  1996.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are you reading from, what page?
    11  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Page 657.
    12  MR IRVING:  There is another reference.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have it.
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: So in my report I say that the first time he actually
    15  brings this one out is in 1996.
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Which is four years on?
    17  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Four years on.
    18  MR IRVING:  Then is must be in Professor Evans’ report, my
    19  Lord, that the allegation is made.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So far as we have got, let us be clear about
    21  it, your letter in May 1997 to Professor van Pelt does not
    22  in any way detract from the point he makes, I am not
    23  saying it is a good point, that you sat on this Altemeyer
    24  evidence between 1992 and 1996.
    25  MR IRVING:  That is not true, my Lord. In fact I drew it to
    26  the attention of other people like Professor Gerald

    .           P-202

      1  Fleming.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a different point.
      3  MR IRVING:  Yes, but this is not the allegation I am trying to
      4  shoot down here. The allegation I am trying to shoot down
      5  here is the allegation that I did not move until
      6  Mishcon de Reya got on the trail and of course they did
      7  that thanks to my discover.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us track that one down.
      9  MR IRVING:  My Lord, that would be an appropriate point to
    10  stop?
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I think we have got to track this one
    12  down. If somebody can give me Altemeyer in Evans.
    13  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Maybe I should go to —-
    14  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You cannot do this, Professor van Pelt, because it is not
    15  your report.
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No, I am thinking maybe I am looking in my own report
    17  right now. If I come back to this.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: It is a point that is made in Evans, but I do not think it
    19  makes it in quite the way that Mr Irving suggests.
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: It could actually have been me, but at a different thing.
    21  MR IRVING:  It would not be very difficult for me to track this
    22  down at home, my Lord, because I can do it on my computer.
    23  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I have read paragraph —-
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We are trying to help you.
    25  MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I have read paragraphs 37 to 40 on pages
    26  160 to 163 of Evans, and it is not what Mr Irving is on

    .           P-203

      1  about, that is for sure.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not what Mr Irving says, no.
      3  MR RAMPTON:  No.
      4  MR IRVING:  It will be when I bring the chapter and verse, my
      5  Lord.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have tracked it down as far as we are
      7  able. I think we had better move on to the next general
      8  question, Mr Irving.
      9  MR IRVING:  I think I have come to the end of my general
    10  questions. I will have a quick look at my cheat sheet.
    11  Are you familiar with the evidence of Kasmir Smolen?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Which evidence?
    13  Q. [Mr Irving]: The various statements he has made to the effect that when
    14  working in the administration of the Auschwitz camp
    15  deliberate falsification of the records went on?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I find it very difficult to — deliberate falsification.
    17  I remember something but I do not really know exactly.
    18  I would not want to comment right now, because I do not
    19  know what records we are talking about and what utterance
    20  by Kasmir Smolen, but again I am happy to comment when I
    21  have it in front of me.
    22  Q. [Mr Irving]: To your knowledge did prisoners not only arrive at
    23  Auschwitz but did they also leave Auschwitz?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is one particular group of prisoners who left
    25  Auschwitz, yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Irving]: But on a regular basis they went on to other camps?

    .           P-204

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Certainly that, yes. This is why there are survivors.
      2  Most of the Jews who survived Auschwitz who were not in
      3  the final evacuation actually were sent on from Auschwitz
      4  in 1944, when the decision was withdrawn that no Jews
      5  could be in the Reich so that they could work in
      6  concentration camps attached to factories in the Reich.
      7  This is one of the reasons, and I have explained that in
      8  our book in some detail, why Hungarian Jews were parked in
      9  Auschwitz. They arrived in Auschwitz. They survived the
    10  selection but were not numbered, were not actually
    11  admitted officially to the camp, and they were there for
    12  sometime before they were sent on to concentration camps
    13  in the Reich.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: But would I be right in saying that to a certain degree
    15  Auschwitz was in fact a transit camp?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: During the Hungarian action it took one of its many
    17  functions. It took on the function of a transit camp, but
    18  it only applied to a relatively small number of the total
    19  people who ever arrived there.
    20  Q. [Mr Irving]: The Hungarian action involved how many people originally?
    21  How many people were deported from Hungary to Auschwitz?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: About 450,000.
    23  Q. [Mr Irving]: 450,000?
    24  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. That is a German figure.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: What actually happened to those 450,000? Were they all
    26  gassed in some way or did some get sent somewhere else?

    .           P-205

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: No. All these people, not even all the Hungarian Jews
      2  arrived in Auschwitz, the large majority, the great
      3  majority of them came to Auschwitz, I think the number of
      4  Hungarian Jews deported is even larger, but at Auschwitz
      5  we are talking about that number. These people were
      6  submitted to selection on arrival in Auschwitz. Then
      7  there were really three possibilities at that moment that
      8  could happen. Either one could be selected to die in the
      9  gas chambers or one could be selected to be admitted to
    10  the camp and given a number. There was a new numbering
    11  system created at the time to accommodate this and became
    12  a regular inmate of the camp or one of the satellite camps
    13  in Auschwitz. Or one could become durkhanstudent where
    14  one was housed temporarily in the camp without actually
    15  being officially admitted to the camp before being sent on
    16  to other concentration camps.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: Where large numbers of these Hungarian Jews put to work in
    18  Germany?
    19  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The question is difficult to determine that, because there
    20  are different numbers of how many durkhanstudent there
    21  were, and this is in some way a point which certainly
    22  I would like to have seen, you know, more clearly
    23  established. One of the debates about the mortality
    24  during the Hungarian action of course ultimately has to
    25  relate, because when we know more or less how many
    26  Hungarian Jews were admitted to the camp and there are

    .           P-206

      1  only two ways to explain what happened, only two ways one
      2  can explain what happened to the people who were not
      3  admitted to the camp, either they were killed or they were
      4  sent to the West. So the issue of the mortality of the
      5  Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz ultimately is tied up to the
      6  number of durkhanstudent there were, and the Auschwitz
      7  camp, the numbers I remember of around 25,000 as to the
      8  number of durkhanstudent who went from Auschwitz to the
      9  West.
    10  Q. [Mr Irving]: How many remained in the camp and were liquidated, in your
    11  opinion?
    12  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I do not really want to give an opinion right now. I mean
    13  I am happy again to look at the figures. It seems to be
    14  that in May and June very high percentages of these
    15  transports were selected for death, but we are talking
    16  about hundreds of thousands of people who were killed in
    17  Auschwitz in the month of May and June.
    18  Q. [Mr Irving]: Let us just for two minutes talk about Sturmlager,
    19  Auschwitz one?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which is now the big tourist centre, is it not?
    22  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is where the reception building is where the film was
    23  shown and where there are exhibitions, yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Irving]: Yes. They have a building there which they describe as
    25  the gas chambers and they show it to tourists as a gas
    26  chamber, is that right?

    .           P-207

      1  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is a crematorium there and in the crematorium is a
      2  room which is described as a gas chamber.
      3  Q. [Mr Irving]: There is a big chimney behind the building?
      4  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Irving]: Which is not connected in any way whatsoever to the
      6  crematorium?
      7  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: The chimney there which is right next to it is a
      8  reconstruction of the original chimney which was in
      9  exactly the same position which was connected like the
    10  chimney in crematoria two and three by underground flue to
    11  the crematorium building. This is a way to increase the
    12  draft of the chimney by leading the gas at basement level.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not quite sure what the point of these
    14  questions is.
    15  MR IRVING:  It is very brief, my Lord. The prisoner reception
    16  centre at Auschwitz one is where now the tourists arrive,
    17  am I right?
    18  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That is where the cafeteria is.
    19  Q. [Mr Irving]: I have never been there, so I take your word for it. They
    20  are then taken into a building and at the end of the tour,
    21  “This is the gas chamber”. They are invited to believe
    22  that this is the gas chamber, is that right?
    23  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: One is not taken into building. One can either visit the
    24  building yes or no.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: But they invited to believe hat this was the gas chamber?
    26  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: There is a sign which says “crematorium and gas chamber”.

    .           P-208

      1  Q. [Mr Irving]: Was that building that is described as tourists as a gas
      2  chamber ever used as a gas chamber?
      3  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, it was used as a gas chamber.
      4  Q. [Mr Irving]: This is not what you wrote in your book?
      5  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: That is exactly what I wrote. I have a very long
      6  description in my book about the use of that space, and
      7  the space is not exactly the same as in the war. I have a
      8  very long quotation. A number of different places.
      9  Q. [Mr Irving]: The space is what?
    10  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: At the moment the space is one bay bigger than it was
    11  during of war. I have extensive descriptions in my book
    12  of the transformation of that space into a gas chamber and
    13  of the use of that space into a gas chamber.
    14  Q. [Mr Irving]: If you go there as a tourist now and you ask the guides,
    15  they will admit to you that this was never used as a gas
    16  chamber, is that, is that right?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is really worthless, is it not.
    18  MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is worthless as a point.
    20  MR IRVING:  The guides would know, my Lord.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They might or they might not. I should think
    22  probably they were born 30 years after these events.
    23  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I will on Friday confront this witness, if
    24  I may, with what he wrote in his original book on
    25  precisely the building we are talking about, where he said
    26  in terms that this building is a fake.

    .           P-209

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Even if it is, I just do not want you to
      2  build up a point that is not really at the moment
      3  impressing me enormously. Tell me if I am wrong. This is
      4  trying to convey to people, you call them tourists, all
      5  right, call them tourists if you want to, what things were
      6  like according to a lot of people’s opinion.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there anything wrong with that?
      8  MR IRVING:  Yes, it is called “passing off”. The tourists are
      9  not told that is a fake. They are not told that this
    10  building was erected in 1948.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, make of this point whatever you wish,
    12  Mr Irving.
    13  MR IRVING:  My Lord, the point is quite clearly, of course,
    14  that later on you will be hearing how I have been fined a
    15  substantial amount for saying precisely this fact which
    16  turns out to be true.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not concerned with what other courts
    18  have done, fined you or whatever.
    19  MR IRVING:  It will be held against me by the witnesses, my
    20  Lord.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, not by me which is perhaps more
    22  important.
    23  THE WITNESS:[Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I just give Mr Irving one piece of
    24  advice as he prepares for this, that I know which sentence
    25  in the book you are going to refer to, but I also would
    26  invite you to read pages 293 and following of my book

    .           P-210

      1  which describes in detail the transformation of this
      2  morgue into a gas chamber and the operation as a gas
      3  chamber.
      4  MR IRVING:  The transformation of the morgue into a gas
      5  chamber?
      6  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes. Page 293, in the late summer/early fall of 1941.
      7  Because I will come back to those pages when you are
      8  talking about my epilogue where the discussion is about
      9  the present condition of the building. I will refer back
    10  to this page, so we save each other and the judge a lot of
    11  time.
    12  Q. [Mr Irving]: You are also discussing the integrity of the site, are you
    13  not?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: I am quite happy to discuss the integrity of the site.
    15  Q. [Mr Irving]: In your book you did?
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I did.
    17  Q. [Mr Irving]: And you complained that the integrity of the site has been
    18  tampered with and that it is no longer the same buildings
    19  and they are not being put to the same uses?
    20  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you confront the same, the exact words, then I comment
    21  on it. My major discussion is on the prisoner reception
    22  building, and I deplore the fact that this building is not
    23  shown in its original state, but has been used for tourist
    24  purposes.
    25  Q. [Mr Irving]: Why would the present Director of the Auschwitz State
    26  Museum in 1995 say to the French newspaper, L’Expresse,

    .           P-211

      1  “Toute y est faux”, “Everything there is fake”?
      2  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: This is — I think I deal with it in my report and I am
      3  happy to go to my report, to the particular thing which
      4  was said. We are dealing here, certainly the one thing is
      5  that the person did not speak French and, if you want,
      6  I can go to my report and deal with this.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have made my position clear. I do not
      8  understand where this gets anybody, this point.
      9  MR RAMPTON:  And I do not either and I, perhaps, in some
    10  sense have as much interest in this aimless ramble as your
    11  Lordship because the longer me and my team are in court,
    12  the more money it costs my clients. I am OK, but it is
    13  quarter past 4 and we are not sitting tomorrow, but if
    14  this start up again on Friday, I am going to have
    15  something to say about it.
    16  MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord, we spent some time looking at the
    17  integrity of crematorium No. (ii) which has been held to
    18  be highly pertinent to this case. The other extermination
    19  centre is supposed to be Auschwitz 1 or the Sturmlager,
    20  and I hold that I am entitled to look at the integrity of
    21  that site too.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, yes, as it originally was, of course,
    23  but whether it is a tourist reconstruction, which is,
    24  I think, how you like —-
    25  MR IRVING:  Or what I call a “fake”.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — or a tourist fake, whatever label you like

    .           P-212

      1  to put on it, seems to me not really to be the point. If
      2  you want to investigate what it was used for at the
      3  relevant period, 1942/43, that is one thing, but you are
      4  now investigating whether it has been described by the
      5  Superintendent at Auschwitz as being a fake. Well, so
      6  what?
      7  MR IRVING:  This is of relevance only when we come to the
      8  political part of this case, my Lord, where I am accused
      9  of having said despicable and perverse things which could
    10  not possibly be true. For this reason, I was proposing to
    11  ask this expert on the Holocaust and on Auschwitz to what
    12  degree what I said was true. Your Lordship may consider
    13  this is totally irrelevant in which case, of course,
    14  I shall bow to your Lordship’s ruling.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, if that is what it is said to be
    16  relevant to —-
    17  MR IRVING:  I apologise for not having made that plain.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — I would like to see quite what it was
    19  that you did say about Auschwitz being a tourist
    20  attraction or part of Auschwitz being a tourist
    21  attraction.
    22  MR IRVING:  The actual sentence was: “The building which is
    23  shown to the tourist today is a fake built by the Poles
    24  after the war as a gas chamber”.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you want to take that any further? I
    26  mean, you have the answer.

    .           P-213

      1  MR IRVING:  Not at this moment, my Lord.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “No, it is not a fake because it was used as
      3  a gas chamber”. That is what Professor van Pelt says.
      4  You do not have to accept it, obviously.
      5  MR IRVING:  Except that I may wish very briefly confront him
      6  with what he himself wrote, if I may, but not at this
      7  moment, my Lord.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will look at page 293 as well?
      9  MR IRVING:  It may not be the page I am relying upon, my Lord.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suspect it will not be.
    11  Now, I think we have probably reached the end of
    12  the day. 10 o’clock on Friday. (To the witness): You
    13  are going to be able to be back?
    14  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: Yes, I will come back tomorrow night.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think it might help everybody to
    16  know how much more cross-examination — it is very
    17  difficult to estimate, I realize.
    18  MR IRVING:  I have already informed leading counsel for the
    19  Defendants that I do not want anticipate having much more
    20  than about another half day of questions because I would
    21  like to think that Professor van Pelt can return over the
    22  weekend, given adequate time for re-examination where
    23  necessary.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Well, that is very kind of you to have
    25  given that indication. Mr Rampton, do you think that you
    26  will reach somebody else on Friday?

    .           P-214

      1  MR RAMPTON:  I have not got any witnesses.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have not?
      3  MR RAMPTON:  No, not to bring on Friday, no, but I am not
      4  really doing my case. I am cross-examining Mr Irving.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Will you resume cross-examining him?
      6  MR RAMPTON:  I can easily do that.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good.
      8  THE WITNESS:[Professor Van Pelt]: My Lord, may I just — since I think that I still
      9  have to give the presentation on the blueprints, so
    10  I think that — I do not know exactly how long it will
    11  take me, but I think it will take me an hour, an hour and
    12  a half to do that, to go through the material.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Will it really take as long as that? That is
    14  slightly gloomier, but that is no disrespect to you, but
    15  if you can present it more —-
    16  A. [Professor Van Pelt]: If you want it shorter, give me time and I will try to do
    17  it much shorter.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you are going to have a bit of time to
    19  think about it. 10 o’clock on Friday.
    20  <The witness stood down)
    21  <(The court adjourned until Friday, 28th January 2000)

    .           P-215