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    Day 5 Transcript: Holocaust Denial on Trial

    Part I: Initial Proceedings (1.1 to 17.18)

    1996 I. No. 113
      2  Royal Courts of Justice
      3  Strand, London
      4  Tuesday, 18th January 2000
      6  Before:
    10  Claimant -and-
    13  Defendants
    14  The Claimant appeared in person
    15  MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya)appeared on behalf of the First and
    16  Second Defendants
    17  MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
    18  MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
    19  the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
    21  (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
    & Company, Clifford’s Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
    22  Telephone: 020-7242-9346)

    .           P-1

      1  <DAY FIVE Tuesday, 18th January 2000
      2  (10.30 a.m.)
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, Mr Irving, I have been provided with a
      4  document that you, I understand, want to make some mention
      5  of.
      6  MR IRVING:  Yes, if I may address the court on this. The only
      7  important one I want to draw your attention to is page 10.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before you do, can I just mention two things
      9  which will take a few minutes? Do sit down. The first is
    10  the transcription which, once they have been edited, are
    11  extremely useful and I think it is extraordinary that it
    12  can be done so well.
    13  MR RAMPTON  So do I.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But it did strike me, reading yesterday’s
    15  transcript, that the first 20 minutes of yesterday was
    16  what you might call administrative discussion, and I think
    17  it is a waste of energy to have that transcribed.
    18  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Unless either of you disagree, I was going to
    20  suggest that in future when we have that kind of
    21  discussion we can just, as it were, stand down the lady
    22  who is doing the transcribing, and save her energy.
    23  MR IRVING:  Except, my Lord, for any conclusions that are
    24  reached.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course, and any what you might call
    26  substantive discussion about the issues.
    .           P-2

      1  MR RAMPTON  Can I also suggest this? If at any stage your
      2  Lordship makes rulings which you may have to — I hope not
      3  but it does happen — they be transcribed separately as a
      4  separate document.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, if and when we come to that, that is a
      6  very good idea.
      7  MR RAMPTON  It worked very well last time that this lady was
      8  in charge of one of my cases.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I also, before Mr Irving deals with this
    10  document, ask you, Mr Rampton, to help me as to where we
    11  are at the moment.
    12  MR RAMPTON  Where are we going?
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Can I just tell you what my concern
    14  is. It is that I should know at every stage, if possible,
    15  to what issue the evidence is directed. Your
    16  cross-examination started out with the topic of the
    17  killing of the Jews from Berlin.
    18  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But it has now moved on to the shootings on
    20  the Eastern Front.
    21  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am just trying to tie it in with your
    23  summary of case. I want to make sure I have understood
    24  correctly, because the section on shootings on the Eastern
    25  Front is in the part of your summary of case which deals
    26  with Auschwitz, whereas, as I understand it, the evidence
    .           P-3

      1  that you are eliciting from Mr Irving at the moment is
      2  really directed mainly to the issue of Hitler’s knowledge.
      3  MR RAMPTON  The trouble is, of course, that it has both sides
      4  to it, as does gassing.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Because your case is, just so that
      6  I understand, that the mass shootings, were a prelude to
      7  an alternative way of killing Jews, namely gassing.
      8  MR RAMPTON  Largely speaking but by no means entirely, gassing
      9  took over from shooting. Both are features of what is
    10  called the Holocaust and both happened on such a scale,
    11  logistically speaking and military speaking, that they
    12  must have come from headquarters, so the whole thing locks
    13  together.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That has helped me understand how the case is
    15  put.
    16  MR RAMPTON  Apart from one or two fiddly things which always
    17  happen arising from yesterday, I am going to deal with the
    18  table talks such as remain, not many. Then I am going to
    19  go on to what happened next, as it were, 42 onwards to
    20  about September 42.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It will, I think, sometimes help me if one
    22  can see the big picture, perhaps by way of a few prefatory
    23  questions, and then go to the individual documents.
    24  MR RAMPTON  One of the fiddly but necessary features in all of
    25  this is that one repeatedly has to make reference to what
    26  Mr Irving himself has said about these things —-
    .           P-4

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, of course.
      2  MR RAMPTON  — which clouds the picture, but is unavoidable.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course. I quite understand that. Yes,
      4  thank you. Mr Irving, do you want to say anything about
      5  that exchange? It was really to clarify my own
      6  understanding of where exactly we are going to and getting
      7  to with the evidence.
      8  MR IRVING:  I agree, my Lord. What we in Riding call a topic
      9  paragraph would be useful.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It would certainly help me and it might even
    11  be that it will help you. It might be that it is right
    12  that you should have the opportunity to comment on the
    13  general proposition as well as the particular proposition.
    14  MR IRVING:  Very well.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You want to say something about this
    16  document?
    17  MR IRVING:  My Lord, I referred yesterday to the fact that
    18  I relied on the Weidenfeld translation of Hitler’s table
    19  talk. It is completely proper that I should produce that
    20  translation to you, which is page 2. You will see it from
    21  the rostrum at the Reichstag, and so on.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    23  MR IRVING:  I do not attach anything in particular but, for
    24  reasons of procedure, I should have shown that to you,
    25  having averred that I had used that translation.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see. Thank you very much.
    .           P-5

      1  MR IRVING:  My Lord, on page 3 I referred to a document in the
      2  December 1942 time frame, which is so important because
      3  that is when this meldung, this report, was allegedly
      4  shown to Hitler at the end of December, but here is Hitler
      5  at the same time ordering that Jews should be released if
      6  foreign currency could be provided to barter for them.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They are not mutually exclusive, those two
      8  policies, are they?
      9  MR IRVING:  I appreciate that, my Lord, but, if the contention
    10  of the Defence is that Adolf Hitler was hell bent on
    11  exterminating every Jew that came into his possession, for
    12  some reason of weltanschauung or a deeper philosophy or a
    13  deeper streak of human nature, there are several documents
    14  of this nature which of course go through to the famous
    15  trucks for Jews deal at the end of 1944, which indicates
    16  that he was not all that pragmatic.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not understand the Defendants to put the
    18  case, as it were, at that extreme level.
    19  MR RAMPTON  Not at all.
    20  MR IRVING:  Well, it just is not watertight either way. My
    21  Lord, I keep trying to drive breaches into the damages of
    22  defence. We have a much more serious breach coming on
    23  page 10, my Lord.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall I go straight to 10?
    25  MR IRVING:  Except to have a quick glance at pages 8 and 9
    26  which is another meldung in that series. It shows Hitler
    .           P-6

      1  was being bombarded with meldungen. This is a much more
      2  routine one which relates to Operation Hamburg, as it was
      3  called, an anti-partisan sweep resulting in 6,000 enemy
      4  dead, and a certain amount of equipment taken, and so on.
      5  I am not going to rely particularly on that, just to show
      6  that these meldungen cannot be taken in vacuo.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not Hitler vorgelegt, is it, as it
      8  happens?
      9  MR IRVING:  I believe it is, my Lord. If you look at my page
    10  8, you can see “vorgelegt 25 December PF”.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.
    12  MR IRVING:  SS Hauptstungfuhrer Fuhrer, who was Hitler’s
    13  personal adjutant, who happened to have an SS rank. That
    14  is quite important, my Lord, because we now come to the
    15  page 10 which I think is going to blow their December 28th
    16  document, not out of water but it is going to cripple it.
    17  To a certain degree, my Lord, I myself am crippled
    18  because, as your Lordship knows, I donated my entire
    19  archives to the German Institute of History many years ago
    20  with a rather sad result that I alone in this room am not
    21  allowed to see them.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you say that again?
    23  MR IRVING:  I donated my entire archives of research which I
    24  had collected for Adolf Hitler —-
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I follow, yes. Now you are banned from going
    26  into that museum?
    .           P-7

      1  MR IRVING:  I am banned from going into Germany. I cannot set
      2  foot in that museum and I cannot see my own archives,
      3  whereas Professor Evans, as I understand it, has had teams
      4  of researchers clawing over these files, where they would
      5  undoubtedly have found these very documents to which I am
      6  now going to refer.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you take me through them if you rely on
      8  them?
      9  MR IRVING:  On the following page you will see the photocopies
    10  of index cards which is all that remains in my collection,
    11  the index cards relating to these documents. I have
    12  translated the index cards into English on page 10. The
    13  first item is 28th December 1942, a report coming from —
    14  the other way round this time — Hitler’s adjutant to
    15  Himmler. The only significance of that is that that is
    16  feed back. That is an indication that that document to
    17  which this document, this card, this reply refers was
    18  clearly shown to Hitler, because there was feed back
    19  coming back from Hitler’s adjutant saying, “Well, Hitler
    20  wants to know how many of our own troops are being killed
    21  in these operations”.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Report No. 49 would be two reports before
    23  No. 51.
    24  MR IRVING:  Yes. It is not the one that is significant in this
    25  case, my Lord. I am just saying that it is a pity we do
    26  not have a similar kind of feed back on the crucial one.
    .           P-8

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This rather suggests that Hitler was paying
      2  attention to what was being laid before him.
      3  MR IRVING:  I disagree, my Lord. Look at the next card down.
      4  We now have December 30th 1942, which is another report by
      5  Himmler to Hitler, signed by Muller this time, the Chief
      6  of Gestapo. It is dated December 29th, exactly the same
      7  day as the incriminating one.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, you have lost me.
      9  MR IRVING:  This is the second card down on page 10, my Lord.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see, December 29th.
    11  MR IRVING:  The reason it is dated December 30th is because my
    12  card index is organized according to the date that
    13  something was allegedly shown to Hitler, not the date of
    14  the document. It is a telegram from Muller, the Chief of
    15  the Gestapo, back to Himmler on combating the high level
    16  achievement in Serbia, and it has been sent by Himmler to
    17  Hitler to have a look at. It is in the big Fuhrer
    18  typeface, and you will notice, my Lord, that on this
    19  occasion Fiefer has endorsed the document twice, laid
    20  before December 30th, laid before December 31st. In other
    21  words, twice he has put it on Hitler’s breakfast tray
    22  outside his door. He is not looking at it. Is this not,
    23  my Lord, precisely the point I made yesterday, that Hitler
    24  had other things on his plate? He was fighting the battle
    25  of Stalingrad. He had a quarter of a million men trapped
    26  in Stalingrad. He was waiting for it to break through.
    .           P-9

      1  He had the battle crews out in the Arctic. He had all
      2  these things going on. Here is Himmler’s message lying
      3  outside his breakfast room door twice, and the adjutant
      4  putting a note on it, saying he has twice put it out
      5  there, twice he has laid it before him. He would not have
      6  had to do it twice if it was read the first time, my
      7  Lord,.
      8  I suggest this casts serious doubt on the
      9  proposition that we can accept that the other document was
    10  necessarily shown to Hitler. I would not put it any
    11  stronger than that.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just let us keep an eye on the reality. You
    13  did accept yesterday, as I understand it, that the
    14  shooting of Jews and others on the Eastern Front was a
    15  programme which was systematic and co-ordinated by Berlin,
    16  and Hitler was aware and approved of what was going on.
    17  MR IRVING:  The shootings of Russian Jews, my Lord, yes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. So, in a sense the issue whether a
    19  document was laid before Hitler and read by him becomes
    20  relatively speaking insignificant, in this context.
    21  MR IRVING:  I disagree, with respect. I think that this shows
    22  how flaky the whole system was. What Mr Rampton would
    23  like to describe as being a cast iron, watertight
    24  bureaucratic system with reports going this way and
    25  messages coming back, it breaks down at the very top level
    26  when you are dealing with a man, the head of state
    .           P-10

      1  himself, who has other things on his plate. I would
      2  suggest that there is a very strong reason to suspect that
      3  this is precisely the reason why Himmler slid that figure
      4  in, because he apprehended quite likely that the boss was
      5  not going to read it.
      6  That may possibly be going too far to impute
      7  that to him, but certainly this indication that on this
      8  very day documents were being put to Hitler twice and not
      9  being read can indicate that that 29th December document
    10  cannot, therefore, necessarily have been taken as having
    11  been read and submitted no doubt to Adolf Hitler or taken
    12  cognisance of it. That is the only point I want to make,
    13  my Lord.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much. Is that it?
    15  MR IRVING:  That is it.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Would you like to go back into the witness
    17  box?
    18  MR RAMPTON  Can I say two things before that happens? We
    19  would very much like to see the German version of the
    20  Kovno train message, if it exists, if Mr Irving has it?
    21  That was page 6 of the first of these.
    22  MR IRVING:  My Lord, it was actually mailed to the instructing
    23  solicitors, about three weeks ago.
    24  MR RAMPTON  What, the German?
    25  MR IRVING:  In a bundle.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The German version of what? Did you say page
    .           P-11

      1  6?
      2  MR RAMPTON  Page 5 I meant.
      3  MR IRVING:  I will certainly supply it again.
      4  MR RAMPTON  That would be very kind. If we have had it and it
      5  has not got to me, that is entirely our fault.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am still puzzled. Page 5 is in German.
      7  MR RAMPTON  Oh, 5?
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You said 6 and then I thought you said 5.
      9  MR RAMPTON  I did say 5.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is in German.
    11  MR RAMPTON  I say no, I am looking at a different document
    12  with “05” at the bottom.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you not looking at the clip?
    14  MR RAMPTON  No, to this previous one.
    15  MR IRVING:  The little bundle probably.
    16  MR RAMPTON  Does your Lordship remember the train load of
    17  Berlin Jews to Kovno?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do.
    19  MR RAMPTON  J3.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am putting this latest clip into the back
    21  of J. I know Miss Rogers is keeping track.
    22  MR RAMPTON  Tab 5, my Lord.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have something in tab 5 already anyway.
    24  They are all going in there.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton. You are back on
    26  what?
    .           P-12

      1  MR RAMPTON  I raised the question whether or not the German of
      2  this report, or message No. 35 on page 5, exists and, if
      3  it does, whether I can see it. If we already have it,
      4  then enquiries are perhaps futile.
      5  MR IRVING:  I will certainly produce another copy tomorrow.
      6  MR RAMPTON  That is very kind. The other thing I should
      7  mention because I said I would and your Lordship asked me
      8  to is this. We spoke to Professor van Pelt yesterday. He
      9  says at this late stage it would be extremely difficult
    10  for him to alter his arrangements and come later on in the
    11  case. So, with your Lordship’s permission, I will adhere,
    12  if I may, to my schedule, which is to start
    13  cross-examination about Auschwitz on Monday when he will
    14  be here.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I must ask Mr Irving whether that is going to
    16  cause him problems.
    17  MR IRVING:  I shall just burn the candle at both ends which is
    18  nothing new.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but I am conscious that you have a fair
    20  old burden, being effectively, as it appears, on your
    21  own. You say if things are getting on top of you.
    22  MR IRVING:  It is proper that we should continue with
    23  Auschwitz.
    24  MR RAMPTON  I am very grateful for that. The other thing
    25  which arises out of that is that Mr Irving said, I think
    26  yesterday, that at some stage he would like to have an
    .           P-13

      1  argument about the significance and relevance of Auschwitz
      2  so far as this case is concerned. Plainly, if I am going
      3  to start cross-examining on Monday, we ought to have that
      4  argument this week and the question is when. I understand
      5  Professor Watt is coming on Thursday. Have I got that
      6  right?
      7  MR IRVING:  That is correct, but I think he will be relatively
      8  brief.
      9  MR RAMPTON  He will, at least, as far as I am concerned. We
    10  might perhaps do that on Thursday also, because then we
    11  will know what the framework is before Monday.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Can you just, so I can think about it,
    13  give me in a couple of sentences what you understand the
    14  argument to be about?
    15  MR RAMPTON  It has been our case all along — the book is
    16  about Holocaust denial. Auschwitz in Mr Irving’s
    17  utterances and certainly in our eyes is at the centre of
    18  Holocaust belief. It is therefore at the centre of
    19  Holocaust denial. Mr Irving has flatly denied that there
    20  were any gas chambers for killing human beings at
    21  Auschwitz. We say he has done that on the basis of really
    22  no evidence whatsoever. It illustrates two things: First
    23  of all, his casual attitude to an important matter of
    24  history and, secondly, his political attitudes and
    25  sympathies. That has been in our case from the very
    26  beginning and still is.
    .           P-14

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I understand all of that, but what might
      2  be going to disappear from the case?
      3  MR RAMPTON  Only this, that Mr Irving may be going to
      4  concede — this is what I do not know because for one
      5  reason he never answered our Auschwitz questions — as we
      6  contended and as I have already said in open court, that
      7  the Liechter report is bunk. If he is, then I cut a great
      8  swathe through my cross-examination. I throw three
      9  quarters of it out of the window. I do not need it. That
    10  why it is important to know what he says.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not sound to me like a terribly long
    12  argument I am not going to ask you, Mr Irving, to answer
    13  it now.
    14  MR IRVING:  I would just draw attention to the fact that this
    15  court is seized only with the issues as pleaded and not
    16  with the issues as portrayed by Mr Rampton.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not going to pursue this now but the
    18  fact is that, on the proceedings as I understand them at
    19  the moment, you rely quite heavily on the Liechter report
    20  for your proposition that there were no gas chambers at
    21  Auschwitz.
    22  MR IRVING:  I think that your Lordship will realize the error
    23  of that statement, if I may respectfully put it like that,
    24  when we come to the cross-examination both of myself and
    25  of the expert witnesses.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then we obviously do need to have an argument
    .           P-15

      1  about this, because I have, to an extent anyway,
      2  misunderstood the position. Let us carry on. Would you
      3  like to come back?
      4  <Mr David Irving, recalled.
      5  <Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, I did produce also the Himmler diary so that you
      7  could see the actual page I worked from, if you wish to
      8  see the quality of the photocopy.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does it carry the matter much further?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Only if your Lordship intends to attach much weight to
    11  Mr Rampton’s suggestion that I deliberately and wilfully
    12  misread that word.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not saying I am not so, if you want me
    14  to have a look at it, I will. I doubt whether it will be
    15  significantly different from the photocopy I have in the
    16  file.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, we will leave it.
    18  MR RAMPTON  Mr Irving, you have left behind, I am sorry, your
    19  little clip that you brought with you this morning.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Somebody will give it to you. The only page I am
    22  interested in at the present is page 3.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Page 3, yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have only two questions, three questions possibly. Did
    25  any such cases occur in practice?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: We have a document which we can produce to the court
    .           P-16

    Part II: David Irving’s Cross-Examination by Richard Rampton, continued (17.19 to 99.10)

      1  showing that the Germans were instructed actually to build
      2  special camps for these special category — I am sorry,
      3  this is not an answer to that particular question. Were
      4  any actually sold?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: No, not to my knowledge.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know what sort of cases were envisaged?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Not on the basis of this document which I produced, no.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know what the scale of this proposal was meant to
    10  be?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: This document does not show that.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. You do not know from extraneous sources the answers
    13  to any of my questions?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: The answer is?
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Those two last two questions: Do you know not the answer
    16  from other evidence?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Not that I wish to repeat just from memory, which may be
    18  uncertain on oath.

    Section details 17.19 to 33.9

    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you very much. Now I would like to return, if
    20  I may, to something that cropped up yesterday. It is in
    21  fact the only topic that cropped up yesterday that I am
    22  going to return to, save for continuing with the table
    23  talk but that is not really a repetition. Could you,
    24  please, be given Hitler’s War 1977, the first volume. My
    25  Lord that is D 1 (i).
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I have it here.
    .           P-17

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you please turn to page 341?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The left hand page that is. Here again you are purporting
      4  to give a translation of the table talk of 25th October
      5  1941, are you not, in the second paragraph?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: On the right hand page, you mean?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, 331?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, 331.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In my copy it is the left hand page.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Odd numbers are always right hand pages in books.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That may be so. Here you purport, do you not, to give a
    12  translation of the table talk of 25th October 1941. Is
    13  that right?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I have just reproduced the remarks noted by the adjutant,
    15  yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Take it slowly. The answer to my question I think is yes,
    17  is it not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot see the word “translation” in that paragraph.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have put it in quotes in English. The quotes start at
    20  “from the rostrum” and end at “terror is a salutary
    21  thing”, do they not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but the word “translation” does not occur there. You
    23  are saying that I am purporting that this is a
    24  translation.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It obviously is. Let us move on.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I apprehend that he intends to attach importance to the
    .           P-18

      1  word “translation”. This is why.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us wait and see.
      3  MR RAMPTON  That version, let us call it, was — for this
      4  fact on its own I make no criticism — taken straight
      5  from the Weidenfeld and Nicholson?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It was an accurate transcript of the original official,
      7  shall we say, translation of the Hitler’s table talk that
      8  I produced to his Lordship this morning.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: At that date you did not have the Genoud original?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: In 1977 nobody had them except Mr Genoud.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You got it very shortly after that, did you not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: About 1982, if I remember correctly.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think it was earlier, but it does not really matter.
    14  The last sentence in the quotes reads: “Terror is a
    15  salutary thing”.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: That is correct.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: When you came to write about this in the 1991 edition, as
    18  you confirmed yesterday, you did at that date have the
    19  original?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is also right, is it not, that you omitted the single
    22  sentence “terror is a salutary thing”?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, because I discovered that it was not in the original
    24  German, so I quite properly cut it out.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But you maintain, do you, still — I am not going over
    26  old ground, I just want to be sure that I have understood
    .           P-19

      1  what your case is — that, save for that sentence, it is
      2  an accurate account of what was reported to have been said
      3  by Hitler?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Had I made a version account from the German original,
      5  starting from scratch, I would have translated it
      6  differently. As I had an existing English translation,
      7  rather than rework it into a different form, then
      8  I preferred to leave it as it was, rather than incur the
      9  wrath of historians who were familiar only at that time
    10  with the English text. Professor Martin Bourchard, in his
    11  very famous attack on my book, had commented extensively
    12  on the fact that my translations of documents differed
    13  from the official English versions, I wanted to avoid that
    14  kind of ill informed attack.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could Mr Irving please be given file D3 (i)? Would you
    16  turn, please, to tab 20? Does your Lordship have that?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    18  MR RAMPTON  At tab 20 this is a document headed On
    19  Contemporary History and Historiography. I think it comes
    20  from the journal of the International Revisionists body,
    21  and the sub-heading is “David Irving, remarks delivered at
    22  the 1983 International Revisionists Conference”. Do you
    23  recognize it, Mr Irving?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is this one of those things that you approve before it is
    26  printed for publication?
    .           P-20

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Quite possibly. I cannot say off the top of my head.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The easiest way of doing it is to look for a stamp 101 at
      3  the bottom of the page.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And look at the right hand column. I will start, if
      6  I may, for context at the bottom of the left hand page,
      7  which in fact in the document is page 280, though it has
      8  been cut off. “The will of the Fuhrer that the Jews are
      9  shipped stage by stage from west to east again and again
    10  and again even in his table talk, you have all heard of
    11  Hitler’s table talk or tichgesprache, written down by
    12  Martin Hein and Martin Bormann’s secretary. Long before
    13  anybody got those these things, I got the actual
    14  transcripts from the Swiss lawyer who controls these
    15  documents. Here you see the actual wording used by Hitler
    16  in German, which is completely different from the
    17  published English translation.”
    18  You said that and then you had it published, did
    19  you not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: If you read the next sentence, you will see what I am
    21  referring to, the interpolator’s sentence.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In fact, in the English translation sentences (plural)
    23  have been interposed which do not exist in the original
    24  German at all.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In that original you see Hitler saying things like: “It
    .           P-21

      1  is a good thing that this legend is being spread about
      2  that the Jews are perishing. It is a good thing that this
      3  terror story” —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: “Terror story”.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — “is being spread about us”. Then you go on to make a
      6  comment of your own. I am not going to argue with you
      7  about that because it speaks for itself. You say he
      8  regards it altogether as being a legend.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Who regards it as being a legend?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You say that Hitler regards it altogether as being a
    11  legend, do you not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: He says it is a good thing that this legend is being
    13  spread about that the Jews are perishing.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is you translation of the word “schreck”, is it?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, I do not have the document in front of me when
    16  I am delivering an extemporary speech. Is this fact
    17  plain?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pardon?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Is this fact plain? I do not have thousands of documents
    20  stacked in front of me when I am making an extemporary
    21  speech to an audience.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You must know that part of the table talk absolutely
    23  backwards, do you not?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Know something backwards? I am familiar with certain
    25  documents on which I have relied.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You must have known ever since you got the Genoud version
    .           P-22

      1  that the key word in that particular sentence — there are
      2  two key words — the first one is the word “schreck”?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: This is your submission that that is the key word, but it
      4  is a loose word that has been put in there by Heinrich
      5  Heime who transcribed it and we then have to try to make
      6  some sense of it.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is there any sense in German — you are the expert — in
      8  which it can be read be read as meaning legend?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Coupled with the next sentence which I put in, this terror
    10  story, I think that legend terror story is an extremely
    11  good translation of the one word “schrecken”. I am giving
    12  precisely the sense of it.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I think I have really the point.
    14  We went through this yesterday and “schreck” means what it
    15  means.
    16  MR RAMPTON  Yes, it is merely Mr Irving’s observation, my
    17  Lord, or acknowledgment, if you like.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: But we also have the problem, Mr Rampton, we are writing a
    19  work of literature and, undoubtedly, you could translate
    20  that document in a very wooden form, putting precise
    21  literal translations and you would end up with a ghastly
    22  book of the kind that academics and scholars write. You
    23  have to write a work of literature which is legible,
    24  giving the sense of the word while at the same time having
    25  it readable in a literary sense.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but, Mr Irving, when you are dealing
    .           P-23

      1  with source material, which you are here, is it not
      2  important to convey the proper translation?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I appreciate that, my Lord, but you have to take into
      4  account the fact that we also have what Mr Rampton calls
      5  extraneous knowledge, knowledge from other sources than
      6  just this one document, which we use when putting the
      7  proper construction on those words.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That will, with respect, Mr Irving, will no do, will it?
      9  You cannot translate a document differently because you
    10  are aware of other material which may point in a
    11  particular direction.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, once again I would have to draw your attention to
    13  the fact, and I think it is cruel and unnecessary to try
    14  to suggest that I have done wrong by taking the original,
    15  official translation published by people who are far
    16  better qualified than I, professional translators.
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No, I have that point. I understand it. I was
    18  questioning you about what you then went on to say which
    19  is that you were anxious to avoid what you have described,
    20  I think, as a “wooden” translation. I was putting to you
    21  that an historian really has to take what he finds when he
    22  is dealing with source material?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: This is right, which is why scholars’ books are published
    24  in such small, limited editions, my Lord, because they are
    25  so illegible, that they are wooden translations of
    26  documents. You have to try to make the text flow when you
    .           P-24

      1  are writing a book. Perhaps this is why my books are more
      2  successful than theirs or more readable than theirs
      3  because I put a lot of extra effort in to making my works
      4  literary.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I tried to cut it short and
      6  I have lengthened it. I am sorry.
      7  MR RAMPTON  With my gratitude is all I will say about that.
      8  Thank you. It saves me from asking any more questions
      9  about that which I now will not do. But I am going to go
    10  on to what I contend must be another piece of deliberate
    11  mistranslation. My Lord, this appears on page 338 of
    12  Professor Evans’ report.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, if I could just add to that point? Of course,
    14  the motive there for changing the words or giving a
    15  different meaning is nothing to do with the motives of
    16  Holocaust deniers; it is purely an intention of producing
    17  a more readable book which is possibly an important
    18  distinction to make.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that is what you are saying?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: It has nothing to do with trying to minimise anything or
    23  trying to …
    24  MR RAMPTON  Yes, now, Mr Irving, have you got your Goebbels’
    25  book there?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, indeed.
    .           P-25

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could you please turn to page 379?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: A vivid description of the Holocaust, if I may say so.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Pardon?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: A vivid description of the Holocaust, if I may say so.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is that?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: On page 379.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is as may be.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: You say “that is as may be”, but that is what this trial
      9  is about, Mr Rampton.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, you will have plenty of opportunity when this
    11  case is at an end or before if you want to re-examine
    12  yourself — do you understand what that means? Do you
    13  understand that means? At the end of the
    14  cross-examination you have a chance to go back to
    15  questions that I have asked you by reference to the
    16  transcript and give further evidence?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Notwithstanding what you say, Mr Rampton, I think it is
    18  helpful that I remind the court that this case is about
    19  Holocaust denials, and there is on this page you intend to
    20  quote from a vivid description of the Holocaust in action.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This last three or four minutes has been a
    22  complete waste of time. I know what the case is about, so
    23  let us get on.
    24  MR RAMPTON  You write in the middle paragraph of that page, a
    25  short little paragraph, “The article”, that is Goebbels’
    26  article in Das Reich on 16th November 1941, “displayed a
    .           P-26

      1  far more uncompromising face than Hitler’s towards the
      2  Jews”. Then can I understand, you are going to back that
      3  up in the next sentence. You explained how you work
      4  yesterday, did you not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I explained how I work?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. You put in —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is the topic sentence.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Topic sentence, so the topic is —-
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: That is a good example of a topic sentence.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The topic is now a comparison between the anti-Semitic
    11  faces of Hitler and Goebbels, is it not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Between the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, and Adolf Hitler who
    13  has been caused immense difficulties by this kind of
    14  genius.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now you are going to explain why it is that Hitler’s face
    16  was far less uncompromising than Goebbels’, are you not?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: That is what that sentence says.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then we get this evidence, as it were, for your first
    19  sentence in the next sentence: “When the Fuhrer came to
    20  Berlin for Luftwaffe General Ernst Udet’s funeral, he
    21  again instructed Goebbels to pursue a policy against the
    22  Jews that does not cause us endless difficulties and told
    23  him to go easy on mixed marriages in the future.”
    24  So, as you have written it, the reader would be
    25  inclined to agree with you, would he not, Mr Irving, that
    26  Hitler’s face was less uncompromising than Goebbels’,
    .           P-27

      1  would he not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now can you turn, please, to page 645 —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just doing it at this moment.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — where we find footnote 39?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Obviously, a reference to the Gottschalt tragedy. That
      8  must be something to do with Ernst Udet, I dare say?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I will explain it, if you wish.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I do not.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it is important in this context.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is important in this context?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. But if you do not wish me to explain it, I will not.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you wish to explain it, better get it over now.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Gottschalt was a German actor who was married to a
    16  Jewish wife. Goebbels being in charge of the German film
    17  industry had demanded that Mr Gottschalt divorce his wife,
    18  because otherwise he would get no more roles in Berlin.
    19  The actor had refused to divorce his wife because he loved
    20  her and, instead, the whole family committed suicide.
    21  That is the Gottschalt tragedy that I have described in
    22  this book, Mr Rampton, and you know it.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know it actually. It is very interesting, but
    24  I do not understand what it has to do with an answer to my
    25  question.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Because it was typical of the tragedies that were being
    .           P-28

      1  caused by the evil genius, Dr Goebbels, in his ^^ doktrene
      2  insistence on the execution of these anti-Jewish measures.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are sliding away, are we not, from
      4  is what is going to be put.
      5  MR RAMPTON  I am completely baffled why it is obvious that
      6  that diary entry is a reference to the Gottschalt
      7  tragedy.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Because the previous diary has been full of the Gottschalt
      9  tragedy and we happen to know what happened to Mr
    10  Gottschalt and his family.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Shall we have a look see what the “evil genius
    12  Dr Goebbels” actually wrote in his diary. Keep what you
    13  said he wrote open, if you please, and turn to page 338 of
    14  Professor Evans’ report. I remind you you wrote only
    15  this: “The Fuhrer again instructed Goebbels to pursue a
    16  policy against the Jews ‘that does not cause us endless
    17  difficulties’ and told him to go easy on mixed marriages
    18  in the future.”
    19  Now, please, look at paragraph 1 under (D) in
    20  brackets on page 338 of Professor Evans’ report. I read
    21  the English first:
    22  “The Fuhrer also completely agrees with my views
    23  with reference to the Jewish question.” According to
    24  Dr Goebbels, there was no water between them in relation
    25  to how the Jews should be treated.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I put my comment on that in my foot note saying, well,
    .           P-29

      1  clearly there was because here is Hitler saying, “Do not
      2  keep causing me problems”.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let us see what he reports Hitler as actually having
      4  said:
      5  “He”, the Fuhrer, that is, “wants an energetic
      6  policy against the Jews which, however, does not cause us
      7  unnecessary difficulties”. Three things about that,
      8  Mr Irving. The word “energetic” has been omitted by you.
      9  You have omitted the word “however”, “alladings” in
    10  German, and you have mistranslated “unnecessary”,
    11  “unnotige”, as “endless”?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: The latter one I accept.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where is the —-
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: But that is not — that does not really seriously change
    15  the burden of what I have said.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have altered the whole sense of that sentence, have
    17  you not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: May I just comment? The word “alladings” is a much
    19  stronger form of “however”. The normal word for “however”
    20  is “aber”. “Alladings” is a much stronger word than
    21  “however”. It implies a much stronger contrast.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where is the word “enagische” in your translation?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not omitted that from the quoted passage.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh, you have just ignored it.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: No. On the contrary, Mr Rampton, you are not obliged to
    26  put in every single word from a sentence unless you put it
    .           P-30

      1  in quotation marks, and I will have a word or two to say
      2  about that with Mr Evans when the time comes. In one
      3  quotation he left out 86 words, three sentences, five full
      4  stops and two semi-colons.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, well, Mr Irving, I have sufficient confidence in
      6  Mr Evans to think that he may be able to deal with that.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I may be able to shake your confidence when the time
      8  comes.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Don’t let us — it not fair — this is the
    10  point that is being put to you — the way you represent
    11  this in your book on Goebbels suggests that a wholly
    12  passive policy towards the Jews is what Hitler is telling
    13  Goebbels should be followed?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord —-
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: And, in fact, the word “energetic” is the opposite
    16  of “passive”, is that a fair way of putting the point?
    17  MR RAMPTON  It is another complete perversion of the —-
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not used the word “passive”. I have not used the
    19  word “energetic”, my Lord. I have left it neutral. We
    20  have to bear in mind that we are not dealing with a
    21  transcript of what Hitler said by court reporters. We are
    22  dealing with a passage that had been filtered through the
    23  evil brain of Dr Goebbels who I have shown in the rest of
    24  the book has a track record of doing things first and then
    25  claiming in his diary afterwards that he had the Fuhrer’s
    26  sanction for it. For example, when he made Hitler stand
    .           P-31

      1  as Vice President which was a disaster for him in 1932,
      2  events like that.
      3  The Goebbels’ diary again and again and again
      4  and the Kristallnacht, the Reich, the Night of Broken
      5  Glass, is another example of Goebbels doing something
      6  first and subsequently claiming in his diary that he had
      7  Hitler’s sanctions.
      8  So you have to be very careful before you use
      9  the Goebbels’ diary as pure gold source material. You
    10  have to refilter it out of that evil brain.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, can we please take this in two stages? Do you
    12  agree that the version which you have given in the book is
    13  completely contrary in sense to that which Dr Goebbels put
    14  in his diary?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: On the contrary, it is quite plain from the Goebbels’
    16  diaries that the suicide of the Gottschalt family had
    17  caused uproar in Berlin life. This is, undoubtedly, what
    18  they are referring to, the fact that the onset of the
    19  Holocaust in Berlin, if I can put it that way, the
    20  deportation of train loads of Jews beginning at this time
    21  is leading to these human tragedies. It is precisely what
    22  Hitler does not want. He is now fighting a desperate war
    23  on the Eastern Front, things are turning nasty, the rains
    24  have begun, the frost is setting in, and here is this evil
    25  little man in Berlin who is causing him totally needless
    26  problems, and Hitler saying, “By all means go ahead with
    .           P-32

      1  your doktriner programmes but stop causing me
      2  difficulties”. And this is the meaning of that sentence.
      3  Goebbels has written it down in the diary and you have to
      4  refilter it back into the correct sense because, you
      5  remember, it has been given negative spin by Goebbels and
      6  you have to give it the right spin again.
      7  Goebbels, remember, is an arch liar. He is a
      8  minister of propaganda. The diaries show this again and
      9  again — an extremely dangerous weapon to use.

    Section details 33.10 to 47.8

    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He is always telling the truth when he says something
    11  which in your mind is favourable to him, but whenever he
    12  says anything which is unfavourable to Hitler, he in your
    13  mind is a liar and, therefore, you feel justified in
    14  obliterating that from the text of your books, do you not?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, I do not want to labour the point, but I am
    16  sure you are familiar with witnesses and you know how to
    17  sort out the evidence they provide which is evidence in
    18  their own self-interest and evidence against their
    19  self-interest. If you apply that kind of criterion to the
    20  statements and diaries — for example, what he writes
    21  about himself, you have to be mistrustful about, even when
    22  he writes about Hitler you have to be mistrustful because
    23  there is the element of the hero worship; but, on the
    24  other hand, what he writes about two or three, C or D,
    25  shall we say, in the alphabet, persons is more likely to
    26  be accurate because he would have no axe to grind one way
    .           P-33

      1  or the other. You have to apply these kinds of filters.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, Mr Irving. I will put it once more in order to get
      3  the reader to think that Hitler’s policy towards the Jews
      4  or the policy that he wanted was really quite kind,
      5  gentle, much less ferocious and severe than Dr Goebbels,
      6  you have actually doctored the words which Dr Goebbels
      7  reports Hitler having said to him?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: What is the essence of this quotation, Mr Rampton? The
      9  essence of this quotation is not all the rest of those
    10  eight lines quoted by your Mr Evans. Yesterday the
    11  quotation to the words does not cause us unnecessary
    12  difficulties. That is Adolf Hitler saying to Goebbels,
    13  “Don’t cause us unnecessary difficulties” and there is no
    14  way you can talk yourself out of that particular
    15  quotation, Mr Rampton.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We can echo that with what General Bruns reported and what
    17  Wisliceny reported. “Do not let us make a stink about it,
    18  but let us be very energetic in this persecution, discreet
    19  cautious, careful, concealed”?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, no doubt you will advance documents and lead
    21  evidence in that direction, but those very words, Adolf
    22  Hitler, quoted even by the victim himself, Goebbels
    23  himself, at whom the criticism is being directed, saying,
    24  “Do not cause us unnecessary difficulties”. There is no
    25  way that your Mr Evans or you yourself, Mr Rampton, can
    26  talk yourself out of those five words. Whatever else you
    .           P-34

      1  want to say about the rest of that quotation and what use
      2  is made of it mind. Do you want me to have two or three
      3  times as much quoted from the diary? If I did that, the
      4  book would have been 2,000 pages long.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you not see a difference between “unnecessary” and
      6  “endless”?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: No, not in burden, not in weight, not in thrust, not in
      8  push, not in emphasis.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “An energetic policy will cause some difficulties, but let
    10  us do it in a way that does not cause difficulties which
    11  are not necessary to the carrying out of the energetic
    12  policy”?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the energetic policy, of course, we have accepted;
    14  people were being roused in the middle of the night by the
    15  Gestapo and given half an hour to pack their goods and
    16  packed on trains to Riga and Minsk. That is an energetic
    17  policy and there is no denial of that in this book.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, I want to, if I may, go back to these table talks?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Hitler is saying, “For God’s sake, do not take it too
    20  far. You are causing us a problem.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: For which you will still need Professor Evans in a
    22  moment. Am I right that you gave us — I am not going to
    23  go to the transcript; it is too time consuming — the
    24  impression — you will tell me if I am wrong — yesterday
    25  that these table talks were little private gatherings
    26  between often, not always of course, Hitler and, say,
    .           P-35

      1  Himmler or Goebbels, the Nazi high ups, perhaps Heydrich
      2  might be there as a particular honour, and, therefore,
      3  there was absolutely no bar, inhibition or restraint on
      4  the use of direct language about what was happening, for
      5  example, in the East?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Not completely right, Mr Rampton, because certain subjects
      7  were taboo. That I do grant.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: The Schierak ^^ family at the end of June 1943, when
    10  Henrietta von Schierak ^^ said to Hitler that she had seen
    11  Jews being loaded on tucks in Amsterdam and was this kind
    12  of inhumanity necessary? There was a lot of glaring went
    13  on and the family was banished from Hitler’s house for the
    14  rest of the war.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, but the fact is I think you were
    16  suggesting there was a degree of candour because Hitler
    17  was amongst friends?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, he is talking to people whom we know were actually
    19  the mass murderers, but I was asked a question, Mr Rampton
    20  asked, I tried to answer honestly that, in fact, they were
    21  taboo subjects.
    22  MR RAMPTON  There will have been at many of these lunches, or
    23  I do not know whether they were really lunches or dinners
    24  or whatever, a whole lot of people who were not Himmler or
    25  Goebbels, but much lower down the scale, were there not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: People like Heinreich Heim who was Martin Bormann’s
    .           P-36

      1  private adjutant and took the initial record. He was
      2  present.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And secretaries and, what are they called, orderlies?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: People like Schmunet, Schau?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The secretary, Krista Schroeder — people like that?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it is hardly surprising that in that company, as
    10  opposed to direct face, one-to-one discussion with Himmler
    11  or Goebbels, Hitler’s language should be somewhat cloaked?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: That is possible, yes.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to deal with it now because I do not want to
    14  have to come back to it. Do you remember, you have
    15  published this information (and as information certainly
    16  not disputed by us) there was a report, I think, in March
    17  1943, by Himmler’s statistician, a man called ^^ Korheir?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Dr Richard Korheir.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Dr Korheir in which at I think about page, what was
    20  it, 20 — I cannot remember the page number — a long
    21  report, he gave a total for the number of Jews that had
    22  been killed up to that date, and he separated the Wartige
    23  from the General Government, and I think the total comes
    24  to about 1.4 million, does it not?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I am going to have to take issue with the way you describe
    26  the report.
    .           P-37

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well —-
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Because this is going into the record, you said “had been
      3  killed”.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well the word actually used was “zondebehandlung”?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but Dr Korheir, not many years ago, wrote a letter to
      6  Das Spiegel which is published in which he said that at
      7  the time he wrote the report he had no notion that is what
      8  that word means. He was a straightforward statistician,
      9  just doing a job on the basis of documents shown to him.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is exactly my point.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: But you said “killed”. Can we be precise about the use of
    12  words.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Disposed of”?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Disposed of.
    15  MR RAMPTON  You see, you must be patient because my questions
    16  build on each other — at least they usually do?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: But that goes into the transcript of me agreeing to you
    18  that you are saying that it said that.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but perhaps you will agree in just a moment the word
    20  actually used was “zondebehandlung”?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: “Zondebehandlung zugefuhrt”.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not have the document.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the actual phrase that he uses.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Himmler had the report typed up in the large Fuhrer type
    25  so that Hitler could read it; whether he did or not is
    26  another matter, but he did, did he not?
    .           P-38

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: It was not typed in the large Fuhrer type. It was typed
      2  in the small regular German office typewriter. I have
      3  never seen a version in the large Fuhrer type of that
      4  report.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I forget which of your books it is that I read it in, but
      6  the assertion by you is that there was a copy prepared for
      7  Hitler to read by Himmler?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: An abridged version for Hitler.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just be patient, but is what you tell us in your book, is
    10  it not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: You were speaking about the 20 page version.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The which?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: You were speaking originally about the 20 page version.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You had better give me a moment to find it. The trouble
    15  is that your books, like many books, are not as well
    16  indexed as they might be.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Blame the index now.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think it is in Hitler’s War 1977. You do not remember
    19  the page reference, do you?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: 503 to 504.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well done, Mr Irving.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: From the index.
    23  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, it is part 2.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Is this point raised anywhere in the
    25  pleadings, as a matter of interest?
    26  MR RAMPTON  No, it is not. Actually, I noticed it sometime
    .           P-39

      1  ago, but this arises not as an example of distortion by
      2  Mr Irving because it is not. This is a true story. It
      3  arises for the reason that I will make clear in a moment
      4  which is directly relevant to the way in which we would
      5  suggest that the table talks, the language used at the
      6  table talks was in some sense sanitized. Perhaps I should
      7  start at the second paragraph on page 503? “Nor did
      8  Himmler evidently raise with Hitler the progress made on
      9  the Jewish problem during their two hour mountain stroll
    10  on March 30th”. This is 1943, is it not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: 1943.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I did say that. “Hitler wearing a soft peek cap to shade
    13  his eyes against the alpine glare. Earlier in 1943,
    14  Himmler had submitted to him”, that is Hitler, is it, I do
    15  not know, “a statistical report on a similar
    16  topic… (reading to the words) … he had sponsored since
    17  Hitler’s written order of October 1939. The report was
    18  typed on a special large face typewriter and clearly went
    19  to the Fuhrer”?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: That one. In other words, the earlier report was.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I follow you. That is all right. “But did Hitler ever
    22  see the statistical report that the Reichsfuhrer had
    23  commissioned at the same time on the Final Solution to the
    24  Jewish problem in Europe”. That is what the report is
    25  called, is it?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is correct.
    .           P-40

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “In dry tones Hitler’s chief statistician, Dr Richard
      2  Korheir, had analysed the fate of the world’s estimated 17
      3  million Jews. Europe’s 10 million had dwindled by 45 per
      4  cent since 1937 owing to emigration and a high natural
      5  mortality rate and the enforced”, and these are your
      6  quotes, are they, “evacuation”?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is not taken from Korheir?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: He uses “evakierung” but, of course, I think we are agreed
    10  that “evakierung” often has an ugly connotation.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In 1977 you believed it had the ugliest of all
    12  connotations, did you not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I repeat what I said. It often has the ugliest, almost
    14  sinister, connotation.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “The evacuation that had begun with the prohibition of
    16  emigration … (reading to the words) … To Himmler’s
    17  annoyance, on reading the 16 page document on March 23rd,
    18  he found that it stated expressis ^^ verbage”, that is in
    19  actual words explicitly, “on page 9 that of the 1,449,692
    20  Jews deported from the Eastern provinces, 1,274,166 had
    21  been subjected to ‘special treatment'” — now, that is
    22  zondebehandlung, is it not —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — “at camps in the General Government and a further
    25  145,301 similarly dealt with in the Warthegau. Himmler
    26  knew too well that the Fuhrer had in November 1941 ordered
    .           P-41

      1  that the Jews”, general, “were”, italics, “not to be
      2  liquidated. On April 1st he had the report edited ‘for
      3  submission to the Fuhrer’ and a few days later, lest he
      4  had not made himself plain, instructed that in version for
      5  the Fuhrer he ‘did not want there to be any mention of
      6  special treatment of Jews’ whatever”.
      7  According to the new text the Jews would have
      8  been ‘channelled through’ the camps to Russia
      9  not ‘subjected to special treatment’ at the camps. As he
    10  wrote on April 9th, the report would serve magnificently
    11  for ‘camouflage purposes’ in later years. Camouflage from
    12  whom, Mr Irving?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: It does not say but, of course, this passage has remained
    14  the same in all versions of my book. I think it is an
    15  eminently satisfactory description of the kind of things
    16  that were going on at the highest level. People were
    17  withholding things from people.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not going to reengage on the argument about the
    19  so-called Fuhrer order of 30th November 1941. We have
    20  been down that road.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: That passage was removed from the subsequent editions.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We know all about that. What is the
    23  relevance to table talk?
    24  MR RAMPTON  We have had all that. The relevance of this is
    25  the words unterbehandlung. You see, I suggest to you,
    26  Mr Irving, that the reason why that was taken out had
    .           P-42

      1  nothing whatever to do with the Fuhrer learning of
      2  something which he did not ought to know, because the fact
      3  is, if the word unterbehandlung had been in there, he
      4  would have known exactly what was being talked about,
      5  would he not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think so. The word unterbehandlung was a very
      7  common German word, frequently used by even Himmler in
      8  totally different —-
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then why did Himmler have it edited?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: He wanted the report cut down from 16 pages to 9 pages
    11  which is one thing that is quite plain, but he also wanted
    12  the explicitness, and I have made this quite plain in
    13  this, that ugly things are happening in the East, and he
    14  does not want Hitler being told, he does not want his nose
    15  being rubbed in it. Let us put it like that.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know what the German says but, “subjected to
    17  special treatment” is a good deal shorter than “channelled
    18  through to camps in Russia”.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: If you subject people to special treatment at camps, then
    20  this has a very sinister connotation indeed. “Channelled
    21  through those camps to the east” has a less sinister
    22  connotation. My primitive reading of this document, and
    23  maybe you will educate the court differently, is that this
    24  is being withheld from Hitler. Himmler is saying to the
    25  statistician, “Write a different version for submission to
    26  Fuhrer”. These words do not occur.
    .           P-43

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: You keep interrupting me.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving, I do not accept that. What Himmler has
      4  done is precisely what he said he did. He has camouflaged
      5  it so that, when Hitler reads it, he is not going to go
      6  through the roof and say, you cannot have a document
      7  talking about zonderbehandlung. We all know what that
      8  means.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Unless you are going to lead evidence which actually bears
    10  that out, I do not think there is any sustainability
    11  whatsoever.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am offering you another perfectly natural —-
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I think it is a perverse interpretation. If Himmler is
    14  saying this is an excellent document for camouflage
    15  purposes, and says “I want a short version for submission
    16  to the Fuhrer which does not mention these sinister
    17  words”, I think that my interpretation is the most obvious
    18  interpretation, and in fact I think it bears out
    19  everything I have said all along, that there is monkey
    20  work going on along here, and either it is the Richard
    21  Nixon complex, as I call it, where Hitler may admittedly
    22  have said, “Do what you want, Mr Himmler, but do not let
    23  me be told”, which I am perfectly prepared to accept may
    24  have happened.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I suggest to you that precisely the same sort of exercise
    26  took place at the table talks. In other words, camouflage
    .           P-44

      1  language, slightly more delicate language was used than
      2  would have been used between, say Hitler and Himmler when
      3  discussing these matters.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, I have had the advantage — you are familiar
      5  with the table talks, you are also familiar with the
      6  German version which has more recently been published.
      7  The table talk was written by Martin Bormann’s adjutant,
      8  Heinreich Heim. Heinrich Heim was a person that
      9  I interviewed at great depth personally while he was still
    10  alive. He was a very educated, cultivated man, an art
    11  collector, oddly enough, in private life. I questioned
    12  him in great deal as to how much about the final solution
    13  was discussed. You are not listening to what I say so
    14  there is no point in my continuing.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Perhaps Mr Rampton is just pretending he is not
    17  listening. I questioned Mr Heim and the other Adjutants
    18  in great detail as to how much was discussed in these kind
    19  of circles, and there was no discussion whatsoever of any
    20  kind of mass extermination of the Jews at Hitler’s table
    21  or in private or else where at Hitler’s headquarters,
    22  which is what I find very disturbing because I satisfied
    23  myself, possibly not the court but I satisfied myself,
    24  that I had won these people’s confidence.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you turn to page 426 of the Professor Evans report
    26  please?
    .           P-45

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: We are moving on to a new topic now, are we?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. We are still on table talk. Henry — was he called
      3  Henry — was one of those two people who wrote down what
      4  Hitler said at these table talks, was he not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Not strictly accurate.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You tell me, then.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: The primary scribe was Mr Heim, the gentleman I have just
      8  mentioned. When he was relieved by Henry Picker, Henry
      9  Picker found in the desk a large number of Heim’s original
    10  transcripts, and he published them under his own name in
    11  the third person. So he was not always the person who was
    12  himself present in the case of Mr Picker.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But Mr Picker would have been there on a number of these
    14  occasions, would he?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, particularly from 1942 onwards.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can I read from the second sentence on 426? You tell me
    17  whether this is right or not. “Henry Picker, who took the
    18  notes at the table talk of 24th July 1942, which I promise
    19  you we are coming to, claimed that Hitler, even in his
    20  private circle, had ‘never forgotten to keep silent about
    21  things for which there was no resonance among his table
    22  companions as amongst the broad mass of out people”‘ — it
    23  must be “our people”, unsere volkes. “Only take the
    24  persecution of the Jews, which he obscured before his
    25  table companions with references to preparations for the
    26  establishment of a Jewish national state on the island of
    .           P-46

      1  Madagascar, or alternatively in central Africa.” That was
      2  published in, I think, Berlin in 1997 but also in London
      3  in 1994?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: 1977.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Can we be quite plain that this is not actually wartime
      7  writing there?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I realise that.

    Section details 47.9-62.20

      9  A. [Mr Irving]: This is writing by Mr Picker 32 years after the war was
    10  over and the climate in German where people were put in
    11  prison for having the wrong opinions. He wanted to
    12  publish a volume of Hitler’s sayings, so he wrote a
    13  suitably politically correct introduction.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you tell me because I have missed it?
    15  Picker was what? A secretary or something more senior?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He replaced Henry Heim as Martin Bormann’s adjutant at
    17  Hitler’s table talk, and from 1942 he took over the task
    18  of writing down Hitler’s table conversations in this
    19  summary form. He died a few years ago. This was
    20  published in 1977, at the time when this persecution in
    21  Germany had already begun.
    22  MR RAMPTON  You see, this is perhaps reflected, is it not, in
    23  something — do you remember Kurt Engel?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Gebhardt Engel, Hitler’s army adjutant.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. You interviewed him, I think, in 1971 on several
    26  occasions?
    .           P-47

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: On several occasions.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is the only version I have of it at the moment. Do
      3  you have Professor Evans’ supplementary or amendment
      4  pages?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I have received them, but I have not even had time to look
      6  at them yet. That is the 18 pages that I referred to.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have not got it here?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I can comment on.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Put the point, Mr Rampton. I think Mr Irving
    10  is saying he can cope.
    11  MR RAMPTON  Well, I think he should have it.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can he have a copy?
    13  MR RAMPTON  I have a copy.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Thank you very much.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Paragraph 12 on page 16, Mr Irving.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. This is the written transcript that I made after the
    17  interview with Engel.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is what I understand. I think I have the original
    19  here.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know your handwriting but this must be you. Your
    22  handwriting is legible, so I can read the handwriting.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I can explain. After every interview with one of these
    24  gentleman I sat down and wrote a formal protocol on what
    25  had been discussed between us.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think it is best if you just look at this document that
    .           P-48

      1  I have, so that in the transcript you have identified it
      2  as your document.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Notes on the second interview with General Gerhardt Engel
      4  at his office, WAH, which is an arms dealers, Dusseldorf
      5  and so on, 9th December 1970. Then it is the second one
      6  that you are relying on? Notes on the interview of General
      7  Gerhardt Engel at his home Dusseldorf, April 5, 1971, in
      8  handwriting.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could I have it back?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I just want to make sure that nothing has been omitted.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do check it against the typescript in case of error.
    12  Thank you. I will read from your manuscript:”When I asked
    13  his views on Hitler’s association with Juden Hausroten (?)
    14  he confirmed broadly Carl Wolf’s statements, and added
    15  that the Fuhrerbefallen,” that means Fuhrer orders.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Is it? Can I check that?
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It must be, from the sense. It is in the
    18  singular but it must really be the plural.
    19  MR RAMPTON  There is not just one Fuhrer order throughout the
    20  war, is there? It has an E on the end.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It has not in Professor Evans?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I accept that it should have an E on the end.
    23  MR RAMPTON  It has in the manuscript. That is why I am glad I
    24  have the manuscript. “Frequently resulted from remarks F,
    25  that is Fuhrer, made at his late discussions, vo ‘Hitler
    26  dutzierte stundenlang’ (?). That should have a small S,
    .           P-49

      1  should it? Yes, it is an adverb. He referred to the
      2  Hewell tagerbruf (?) as proof.” That means Hitler just
      3  rattled on for a long time. That is all that means, is it
      4  not? “He never summarized the conclusions of these
      5  discussions. Each was left to pick his own meat from the
      6  talk, Himmler in his way quiet but efficient, (that was
      7  how the three quarters of a million strong Waffen (?) SS
      8  had been born and Bormann more crudely issuing edicts on
      9  party notepaper beginning der Fuhrer hat befallen” etc.
    10  That is exactly what would have happened?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. You note incidentally that this is part of my
    12  collection in Munich which I no longer have access to.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We must have got this from Munich I suppose?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: It has come from the Institute in Munich as part of the
    15  early collection which is now denied to me.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you would like copies of these, we can certainly give
    17  them to you.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Very generous of you.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point on this?
    20  MR RAMPTON  The point on this is that what Engel is saying
    21  there reflects what Picker has said in 19 whenever it was
    22  after the war, that if there are a lot of people, or even
    23  a few people, unless they are the two or three high
    24  ranking people alone, Hitler would use euphemism. He
    25  would use a sort of a thought process. To Himmler, for
    26  example, Siberia would mean extermination. To somebody
    .           P-50

      1  else who was not in the know it might mean Siberia. Do
      2  you follow me?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that really right? Picker is talking
      4  about euphemisms, but Engel is talking about something
      5  rather different. That is how a Hitler order emerges. Is
      6  that not a different point?
      7  MR RAMPTON  It is part of the same process.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a very clear picture, in fact, those two lines, of
      9  how these Himmler orders emerged, that Bormann would be
    10  hanging around in the background with a note pad writing
    11  things down, and eventually an order would be drafted,
    12  sent out as the Fuhrer has ordered, and sometimes it was
    13  not what Hitler had ordered at all. There are famous
    14  examples where Hitler learned of these orders months later
    15  and said,”Who ordered this?”
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sure that from time to time people got the wrong end
    17  of the stick but, if Hitler is talking about evacuation of
    18  the Jews at one of these table talks and is saying, “we
    19  must get on with it” for example, then Himmler will know
    20  exactly what Hitler is talking about, and Hitler does not
    21  have to talk about extermination, does he?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, it is precisely why not only I question but
    23  also the allied interrogators questioned all these
    24  surviving members of Hitler’s staff very closely on this
    25  very point. How much discussion was there, whether veiled
    26  or otherwise? I have to say that I am not saying there
    .           P-51

      1  was no discussion. There is one famous episode, if I can
      2  just relate for two minute, where Hitler’s film camera man
      3  personally witnessed a mass shooting of the Jews outside
      4  Minsk in August 1941. He had been there with Himmler. He
      5  is still alive. I am the one who weedled this story out
      6  of him. He came back to Hitler’s headquarters with the
      7  photographs in his camera. He showed the photographs to
      8  General Schmundt, Hitler’s wehrmacht adjutant, and
      9  Schmundt said to him, “If you know what is good for you,
    10  you will destroy these photographs”, which is what I put
    11  in my book also. What do you make of a statement like
    12  that?
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I go back to where we started and ask you
    14  whether you do or not accept that Picker is giving an
    15  accurate portrayal of talk within Hitler’s private circle
    16  when he says that there is an element of camouflaging
    17  about the language that was used.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not accept that, my Lord. I fully accept his
    19  transcripts that are published as transcripts in his
    20  volume, which is very similar to the table talks but in
    21  the third person instead of being in the first person.
    22  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is not really answering my point.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just about to answer, my Lord. What has been quoted
    24  from, the passage you are asking me about, is not written
    25  during the war. It is written in 1977, when the climate
    26  of fear in Germany has grown to such an extent that
    .           P-52

      1  everybody who wants to write a book about Adolf Hitler has
      2  to put in a politically correct introduction to make sure
      3  it gets past the census. In Germany they have a book
      4  censorship body which burns books and closes down
      5  bookstores and arrests authors. In order to make sure you
      6  get past this book censorship body in modern Germany, you
      7  put in politically correct statements in order to avoid
      8  trouble. This is a typical example of the kind of
      9  politically correct statement to which I would attach no
    10  evidentiary weight whatsoever without supporting material.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is clear answer. Thank you very much.
    12  MR RAMPTON  I am still on table talks Mr Irving. In Hitler’s
    13  War 1991, there is a reference on page The gulf between
    14  the actual atrocities in the east, and what Hitler knew or
    15  said about them, widened. Over lunch on May 15 Hitler
    16  again merely spoke to staff about transporting the Jews
    17  eastward; her referred indignantly to the misplaced
    18  sympathies of the bourgeoisie. How well the Jews were
    19  faring, he remarked, compared with the German emigrants of
    20  the nineteenth century – many of whom had even died on
    21  route to Australia! Goebbels, unhappy that forty thousand
    22  Jews still remained in’his’ Berlin, raised the subject at
    23  lunch with Hitler on the twenty-ninth. (‘I once again
    24  inform the Fuhrer on my plan to evacuate every single Jew
    25  from Berlin…’) Hitler merely expatiated on the best
    26  post-war homeland for the Jews. Siberia was out- that
    .           P-53

      1  would just produce an even tougher baccilus strain of
      2  Jews; Palestine was out too- the Arabs did not want them;
      3  perhaps central Africa? At all events, he summed up,
      4  western Europe must be liberated of its Jews – there could
      5  be no homeland for them there. As late as July 24 Hitler
      6  was still referring at table to his plan to transport the
      7  Jews to Madagascar – by now already in British hands- or
      8  some other Jewish national home after the war was over.”
      9  So you there, as it were, made use of four different
    10  records?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The table talk of the 15th May, Goebbels’ diary of 30th
    13  May?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The table talk of 29th May?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the table talk of 24th July?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. The Goebbels’ diary of May 30th would refer of
    19  course to the events of May 29th.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is absolutely right. I would like you again, if you
    21  will, to look at the supplement to Professor Evans’ report
    22  where you will see I think on page 8, starting under the
    23  cross line, a rather fuller translation of Goebbels’ diary
    24  entry for 30th May 1942. To save my voice and with his
    25  Lordship’s permission, it is quite a long passage, I would
    26  ask you to read the English. If you have any problems
    .           P-54

      1  with it, the German is printed underneath. Starting with
      2  the small type on page 8 and ending with the words “here
      3  they will not be allowed to have any home any more” on
      4  page 9.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: (Pause for reading) Acres of sludge, is it not? If I had
      6  to put all that into a book, the book would sink under its
      7  own weight.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have read that?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: On the next page, page 10 at paragraph 3, Professor Evans
    11  has set out a translation of the table talk for the 29th
    12  May 1942, and again I ask you to read that.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: (Pause for reading) He is suggesting that it is two
    14  separate conversations.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. He is suggesting that it is two separate
    16  conversations. What he is suggesting, and I think you may
    17  agree with him, is that it is only the last part of the
    18  Goebbels diary entry, from the middle of second paragraph
    19  on page 9, that is in fact a report of the table talk
    20  because there there is a degree of congruence. The words
    21  are not identical but there is a great deal of similarity
    22  in the subject matter between what Goebbels wrote in that
    23  short passage and what we find in the table talk on pages
    24  10 and 11.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: These two records are created in totally different ways,
    26  of course. Henry Picker would sit at a side table with a
    .           P-55

      1  note pad, writing down things as they were said on which
      2  he would then base his subsequent dictation. Dr Goebbels
      3  would wait until the following morning, the first hour in
      4  his working day, to summon his stenographer, and he would
      5  dictate a diary on the previous days events.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But the point might be this, might it not, Mr Irving?
      7  Dr Goebbels will have recorded a whole day’s events, as
      8  you say, over many pages.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but, if there were two or three separate
    10  conversations, it is quite possible that he would have
    11  coalesced them.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You see, what I am suggesting is that the first part, down
    13  to the middle of the second paragraph on page 9,
    14  starting “How little the Jews can assimilate themselves”,
    15  the first part which ends “Therefore, one must liquidate
    16  the Jewish danger, cost what it will”, I think in German ,
    17  “Deshalb, muss man die jedische Gefall-Liquidierung Koste
    18  es was es wollen”. That is not table talk.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot find it.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you want to have a little time?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: No. I think I can cope with it.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I hesitate to say this and it is
    23  my fault. I am afraid you have lost me. I am not
    24  following the point that is being made which is presumably
    25  eventually a criticism of 465?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I will do it more precisely.
    .           P-56

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a problem that authors frequently have. When
      2  material comes in late, you attach far more significance
      3  to it than it really deserves.
      4  MR RAMPTON  You must leave judgments about significance to me
      5  and his Lordship, Mr Irving. You will make your own, no
      6  doubt.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, it is my fault, I am sure, but I
      8  am just not quite following what we are on at the moment.
      9  MR RAMPTON  I have tried to take it quickly because this sort
    10  of exercise is tedious. What happens in the end of course
    11  is that, if you do it too quickly, it gets into a muddle.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Fill me in.
    13  MR RAMPTON  On page 9 there is a sentence which begins, “How
    14  little the Jews can assimilate themselves to Western
    15  european life in reality can be seen from the fact”, and
    16  so on, and there is a good deal —-
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Halfway down the second paragraph.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Halfway down the second paragraph on page 9.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have that.
    20  MR RAMPTON  They get put into a ghetto, they become very
    21  quickly ghetto-ised again, then there is talk about
    22  Siberia and then about central Africa.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    24  MR RAMPTON  That is reflected in the table talk on page 10,
    25  starting with the words in the third line “The whole
    26  prudity of the Jewish people really finds expression” and
    .           P-57

      1  so on and so forth. Then there is a reference to the
      2  ghetto, and then on the next page there is a reference to
      3  Siberia, and on the next page the reference to Africa, and
      4  probably one can stop there so far as the Goebbels’ diary
      5  entry is concerned.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That much I follow. What is the
      7  significance?
      8  MR RAMPTON  The significance is this. What I am putting to
      9  Mr Irving is that the earlier part of the Goebbels’ diary
    10  entry, certainly down to the end of the first paragraph on
    11  page 9, has nothing to do with the table talk at all, but
    12  represents a private conversation between Hitler and
    13  Goebbels.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, that is an adventurous presumption, I think. If you
    15  look at the Weidenfeld edition of the table talk, there is
    16  yet again a totally different version of that table talk,
    17  and Professor Evans has ignored that completely.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not worrying about that.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It worries me. It should worry. It should have worried
    20  Professor Evans too, the fact that there are three
    21  different versions of the same thing.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, please, can we stick to the point? If you read
    23  the first two paragraphs on pages 8 and 9, what you see is
    24  something a very great deal blunter about the fate of the
    25  Jews from both sides to the conversation, if it be
    26  Goebbels and Hitler, than you ever find in the table
    .           P-58

      1  talks.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: (Pause for reading) You mean the argument about the need
      3  to keep the equilibrium?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the suggestion, perhaps more than a suggestion, the
      5  proposal, that it is probably going to be necessary to
      6  kill all the people in the prisons as well, because the
      7  sentence about the prisoners starts with the little German
      8  word “auch”.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are you, Mr Rampton?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot see any plan to kill people in the prisons.
    11  MR RAMPTON  Page 8, my Lord, in indent in small type, there is
    12  some talk about the Jews. “Thus I plead once again for a
    13  more radical Jewish policy”, this is middle of the page,
    14  “whereby I am just pushing at an open door with the
    15  Fuhrer”. This has been quoted by a number of people but
    16  without the context. “The Fuhrer is of the opinion that
    17  the danger will become greater for us personally the more
    18  critical the war situation becomes. We find ourselves in
    19  a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932
    20  where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day and
    21  one had to take all possible security measures to escape
    22  from such a development in one piece. The extermination
    23  of criminals”, and there is no ambiguity about this, “is
    24  also a necessity of state policy”, but the German sentence
    25  which you find on page 9, when he goes on to say: “Auch
    26  die ausmerzung ist ein stattspolitische notwendigkeit”,
    .           P-59

      1  necessity. What I am suggesting is that Goebbels and
      2  Hitler had a fairly frank conversation about the fate of
      3  the Jews and indeed of the prisoners but, when you get to
      4  the table, the larger audience. That all goes up into the
      5  air into airy talk about central Africa and Siberia.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: May I just comment that to translate “ausmerzung” as
      7  uniquely as “extermination” is either showing the
      8  bankruptcy of Professor Evans’ vocabulary. Ausmerzung has
      9  a very wide range of meanings. It is very similar to
    10  “ausschlossung”. It is rubbing out, wiping out,
    11  disposing of.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You can argue with Professor Evans about that, Mr Irving.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I certainly shall.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, am I wrong in thinking, if this
    15  is important, I do not know, that the first paragraph of
    16  this extract from the diary entry is dealing with the
    17  particular problem in Berlin and the dilemma whether you
    18  keep the Jews there, because they are better working in
    19  armaments factory than having in potentially criminal
    20  elements from the East, or wherever. Then it seems to go
    21  on to the rather wider question what will happen to people
    22  in prison if the war situation gets much worse.
    23  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that fair?
    25  MR RAMPTON  Yes. What I am suggesting is that the use of the
    26  word “also” or “auch” may be tending to suggest that the
    .           P-60

      1  more radical solution of which Dr Goebbels spoke was the
      2  same as that which was going to befall the criminals.
      3  After all, if it had by this time already been decided, as
      4  undoubtedly it had, that the German Jews were going to be
      5  deported, and lot of Berlin Jews had already gone by May
      6  1942, it could hardly be, could it, Mr Irving, that Joseph
      7  Goebbels would have been pleading for a more radical
      8  policy in that regard? That is right, is it not?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just totally baffled that you are hanging your entire
    10  case on one little German word “auch” and, if I was in
    11  that position, I think I would deserve to be hanged, drawn
    12  and quartered. You have been bedazzled by this recent
    13  acquisition rather like a new toy. You are trying to make
    14  something out of it, but I am afraid that it escapes me
    15  and I think may very well have escaped the court. What
    16  point are you trying to make out of it? What is
    17  significant in the quotation is that Hitler is saying once
    18  again, “There is no point sending them to Siberia because
    19  that will just toughen them. Let us send them to Africa.
    20  That is a more reasonable solution.” Once again, he is
    21  not talking about killing.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In May 1942 send them to Africa?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just repeating what is in the documents.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what the document says.
    25  MR RAMPTON  Yes, it is what the document says but it was not a
    26  realistic possibility.
    .           P-61

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Hitler was hoping to win the war, I remind you of that
      2  fact. He was an optimist. He was an incurable optimist.
      3  People, when they get in that position, hope to win, the
      4  same as the defendants in this action. They do not
      5  necessarily paint a worse case scenario.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, just so that I try and understand
      7  the point that we have been spending a little time on, and
      8  looking at it in terms of where you say the manipulation
      9  or the distortion occurs in volume 2 of Hitler’s War 1991,
    10  you would criticise Mr Irving’s sentence which reads: “But
    11  he evidently never discussed these realities with Hitler”.
    12  MR RAMPTON  Yes, indeed.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the point, is it?
    14  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not going to respond to that, my Lord, because
    16  I think that that is not a fair conclusion from this
    17  material. I think the real allegation is that Mr Rampton
    18  would have liked that I ladled acres of sludge into my
    19  manuscript, rather the way Professor Evans has, which
    20  would have sunken without trace.

    Section details 62.21-78.1

    21  MR RAMPTON  There it is. Now finally on table talks for the
    22  moment at least, your favourite one, Mr Irving, which
    23  I think is 24th July 1942.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Only favourite because in a sense it brings this
    25  particular phase to a end. It is the bottom line.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It does what?
    .           P-62

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: It brings this particular table talk phase to an end and
      2  after that there is nothing more useful to be dug out of
      3  them one way or another.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The relevant part of it is very short, and I do not know
      5  whether or not there is any way one can get more out of
      6  it, but it is on page 422 of Professor Evans’ report.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Interestingly, yet again, this is a passage which is in
      8  the Picker version of the table talk, but not in the
      9  original Heinich Heim version, so it may well be something
    10  that can be attached to that.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It may be that Picker was there and Heim was
    12  not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Heim also wrote a version of the table talk that day, my
    14  Lord, in the first person, so it is possible that Picker
    15  added to the original from his own notes.
    16  MR RAMPTON  Let us look at 466 in your 1991 edition of
    17  Hitler’s War, to start with?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It is the first paragraph, about lines 6 and 7.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “As late as July 24th”, this is the last part of the first
    20  paragraph, “Hitler was still referring at table to his
    21  plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar, by now already
    22  in British hands, or some other Jewish national home after
    23  the war was over.” Yes? Is that, do you think, a fair
    24  rendering of that part of the table talk?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry, did you read the table talk?
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    .           P-63

      1  MR RAMPTON  I think we are maybe at cross purposes. That is a
      2  fair rendering of the table for that day, is it, what you
      3  wrote there?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: The table talk says, “After the war was over, he would
      5  rigorously take the standpoint”, this is Hitler, “that he
      6  would smash after city to pieces if the Jews did not come
      7  out and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish
      8  national state”.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then it finishes up, I do not know how far down —-
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: My reference I can quote “As late as July 24th”, this is
    11  now me in my book, “Hitler was still referring at table to
    12  his plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar by now
    13  already in British hands or to some other Jewish national
    14  home after the war was over”.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where in the table talk does the last piece in evidence
    16  come?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Which last piece?
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Therefore significant”.
    19  MR RAMPTON  When it was reported to him that Lithuania was
    20  also Jew free today, that was, therefore, significant?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, first of all, we do not know what those three little
    22  dots stand for in the case of Professor Evans. Those
    23  little dots sometimes stand for two or three paragraphs or
    24  even pages of text.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course they can. Are you not familiar with this table
    26  talk?
    .           P-64

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not got it with me.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the significance of that last
      3  sentence you have just read out, Mr Rampton? It makes no
      4  sense to me at all.
      5  MR RAMPTON  What it means is that Hitler already knew that it
      6  had happened in Lithuania.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: What had happened?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The Jews had been removed from Lithuania?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why is that significant?
    11  MR RAMPTON  Because of what happened next and, of course, with
    12  what had happened before.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: So you accuse me of a sin of omission yet again, in other
    14  words, the book should have been 2,000 pages long instead
    15  of 1,000.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If his plan was to transport everybody to Madagascar after
    17  the war, why should he think it is significant that
    18  Lithuania was now Jew free?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. We do not know what the preceding
    20  sentences say, and I hesitate to express opinion there. It
    21  looks like the corollary of something that he said in the
    22  previous sentence which Professor Evans has not vouchsafed
    23  to us.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is not the real point on this it was obvious,
    25  or should have been obvious — this is Professor Evans to
    26  Mr Irving — that this was a classic example of camouflage
    .           P-65

      1  in Federation
      2  MR RAMPTON  Yes, absolutely.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: He could well argue that, but I would argue on the
      4  contrary.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That, as I understand it, is the way the case
      6  is put on this particular table talk.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Your Lordship will certainly attach whatever weight you
      8  wish to to that, but the evidence is that Adolf Hitler,
      9  certainly since June 1938, had adumbrated the Madagascar
    10  plan, and he repeatedly referred to it in a rather wistful
    11  kind of way. He discussed it with the German Navy. The
    12  German Admiralty actually became involved in a detailed
    13  plan, so did the German Foreign Office, so did various
    14  subordinate departments. All I am saying in this sentence
    15  is that as late as July 1942 in this rather madcap way he
    16  is still talking of Madagascar.
    17  MR RAMPTON  Yes, but it is a question of whether you take him
    18  seriously or not, is it not? That is what matters, from
    19  history’s point of view.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Should I have suppressed this sentence? Should I
    21  have dropped it on the floor, the same way as your
    22  historians have dropped the other documents on the floor
    23  that do not fit into their arguments?
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you please turn over the page in Professor Evans’
    25  report to page 423, you will see why it is that I suggest
    26  that when Hitler talks of Madagascar in July 1942 at his
    .           P-66

      1  table talk it is mere fanciful waffle. Look at paragraph
      2  3 in Richard Evans’s report, please?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not just waffle, euphemism.
      4  MR RAMPTON  Yes, euphemism, yes. “By early 1942, it had thus
      5  been made official that Hitler was no longer aiming at
      6  driving Jews out of Europe to Africa. The Madagascar
      7  plan, which had already been postponed indefinitely in the
      8  Autumn of 1940, was now officially shelved. It is totally
      9  misleading to speculate, as Irving does, that Hitler in
    10  July 1942 ‘might still be dreaming of Madagascar’. On
    11  10th February 1942 the Foreign Office official who had
    12  first proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to
    13  Madagascar in 1940 wrote that:
    14  ‘Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been charged by the
    15  Fuhrer with carrying out the solution of the Jewish
    16  question in Europe. In the meantime, the war against the
    17  Soviet Union has opened up the possibility of placing
    18  other territories at our disposal for the Final Solution.
    19  Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should
    20  be pushed off not to Madagascar but to the East.
    21  Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for
    22  the final solution any more”?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you implying that Heydrich was the one who called the
    24  shots and not Hitler?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This appears to be a report at secondhand, admittedly —-
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I am afraid this point rather operates against yourself.
    .           P-67

      1  You are implying that Heydrich is the one who made the
      2  decisions and not Hitler who is talking here still about
      3  Madagascar. I am perfectly —-
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, because it goes on to say that the Fuhrer
      5  has made the decision that it should not be Madagascar.
      6  MR RAMPTON  The Fuhrer has decided.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: But here, quite clearly, the Fuhrer is still talking about
      8  Madagascar in the way that Heads of State do.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, it is camouflage; it no longer means anything?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: May I remind you, why the Madagascar plan was dropped was
    11  because Germany was not in a position to ship the stuff,
    12  to get the shipping and to transport these emigres
    13  overseas any more without the ships being torpedoed. He
    14  is talking about after the war it would be nice if we
    15  could resume the Madagascar plan.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Maybe, so we can lay our hands on the remaining 4 million
    17  Jews, perhaps?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: That is not exactly what he says, Mr Rampton. I have
    19  adhered very closely to what is in the sources. It would
    20  have been irresponsible of me to have ignored this remark
    21  in the way that the historians have ignored the other
    22  documents that do not fit in with their schemes.
    23  I am writing a biography of Adolf Hitler, and
    24  this is very clearly a germane document to include, but to
    25  give it no more weight than I assigned to it.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So is the Foreign Office document, is it not?
    .           P-68

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I have mentioned that at the appropriate place in this
      2  very volume too.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, the appropriate place, do you say that place — if
      4  you do, I am wrong?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I shall certainly look it out overnight and bring it
      6  before the court so we do not have to waste more time.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But, of course, Hitler had, in fact, already ordered
      8  Madagascar to be taken off the menu back in February, so
      9  this cannot be taken at face value. Did you write that
    10  anywhere?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, these are your suppositions for which you have
    12  no evidence. I can only work on the evidence which is in
    13  the documents. The table talk, as I have always said, are
    14  documents of a very high category of authenticity and
    15  integrity.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that Foreign Office document of, is it, 10th February,
    17  is that an authentic document, do you think?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Indeed, yes, but you will accept the planning undergoes
    19  swings and changes as the climate of the war changes, as
    20  the advance proceeds on the Eastern Front or as one has
    21  set backs, then one adapts one’s plans.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 423, if you want to cross-refer.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am indebted to your Lordship, yes. This very document
    24  was quoted by me in full on page 423, the relevant part,
    25  which is what, no doubt, brought it to Professor Evans’
    26  attention in the first place.
    .           P-69

      1  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, may I say what I propose to do next?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      3  MR RAMPTON  That ends that little exercise with the table
      4  talks and very little it was, I took too long. It ends on
      5  24th July. I now propose to lay out as quickly as I can
      6  (but it is necessary to look at some original German
      7  documents) what was going on, so far as anybody knows from
      8  the German documents, from 28th or earlier about this
      9  time, end of July 1942, and then I make no secret of it,
    10  I am going to then end up with Himmler’s note of 22nd
    11  September 1942. That is not quite my terminus.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which is that?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: We have not had that yet.
    14  MR RAMPTON  That is the next topic, but it does require some
    15  background. It may be best to lay the ground by referring
    16  to what Mr Irving wrote about it in his book.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, you say you are going to be producing to the
    18  court German documents. Will you make it plain on each
    19  occasion whether they were documents that were before me
    20  at the time I wrote the books or not.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a fair point.
    22  MR RAMPTON  I may not know the answer to that — it is a fair
    23  point, but it is not the whole of the point by any means
    24  because you have said something about the Himmler log
    25  entry of 22nd September 1942, and what I want to do is to
    26  see whether you adhere to what you there said. It is also
    .           P-70

      1  evidence of system, of course, and scale. So it does
      2  several jobs at the same time. Can we look, please, first
      3  of all, at page 467 of Hitler’s War 1991?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: The closing words of the paragraph — of the chapter?
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, they are. It is right to point out that this half
      6  page which ends at a half page on page 467 starts with a
      7  reference to Himmler on page 466. Perhaps your Lordship
      8  might just read that? I have some questions about that
      9  also.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  From where?
    11  MR RAMPTON  From “Himmler kept his own counsels”.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just read it? I have read it before,
    13  but I have to remind myself.
    14  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    16  MR RAMPTON  Now, Mr Irving, if you would just look at that for
    17  a moment, just 467 for the moment? At the end of the
    18  paragraph you write: “Himmler meanwhile continued to pull
    19  the wool over Hitler’s eyes. On September 17th he calmly
    20  jotted in his notes for that day’s Fuhrer conference:
    21  ‘(1) Jewish immigration; how is it to be handled
    22  in future? (2) Settlement of Lublin’, and noted next to
    23  these points ‘Conditions in general government and
    24  Globas'” which is Globocnik’s nickname. Yet, at the top
    25  of the page, at the end of the first little paragraph you
    26  write this: “The Fuhrer himself”, and this is a
    .           P-71

      1  translation of Himmler’s letter to Berger of that
      2  date, “The Fuhrer himself has entrusted me with the
      3  execution of this arduous order and nobody can deprive me
      4  of this responsibility.”
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: You did not read out the first part which is to say what
      6  the order was.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am so sorry. The task is making the occupied Eastern
      8  territories —-
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: The full text is: “The occupied Eastern territories are
    10  to be liberated of Jews. The Fuhrer himself has entrusted
    11  me with the execution of this arduous order. Nobody can
    12  deprive me of this responsibility.”
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am just getting out the original which is “Die besetzen
    14  osgebete werden Judenfrage”, “The occupied East
    15  territories will be Jew-free”, correct?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Well…
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It must be?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: That is what I would refer to as a wooden translation,
    19  yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh, yes. I do not make any apology for it being wooden?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is me being defensive.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Die durchfuhrung dieses sehr schweren gefalls” — the
    23  carrying out of this very hard order — “hat der Fuhrer
    24  auf mein schuntten gelecht” — has the Fuhrer placed on my
    25  shoulders, is that right?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, yes.
    .           P-72

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So Himmler has been given the very hard, sehr schwer, task
      2  of clearing the Eastern territories, occupied Eastern
      3  territories, of all the Jews, has he not?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Rendering the Eastern territories free of the Jews, yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. So about what was it, if Himmler is telling the
      6  truth about that, that Himmler on, in fact, I think the
      7  dates are 22nd and not 17th, but it matters not.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You accept that, do you not, Mr Irving?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: That I do not know, but it is not important.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not important, I agree.
    11  MR RAMPTON  On 22nd September, about what was it that Himmler
    12  was pulling the wool over Hitler’s eyes?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: At this time a killing operation had begun, that the
    14  killings were going on.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Surely not. By what means?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. It is not important for the purposes of
    17  that answer.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am afraid I think it is. You see, Mr Irving, your
    19  position is that the gas chambers of Belzec, Sobibor,
    20  Treblinka and Auschwitz did not exist, so how do you think
    21  Himmler and his bods were carrying out the killings on a
    22  massive scale which they did not want Hitler to know
    23  about?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just checking on the date. Well, my position on that
    25  really is that on the basis of the documents, I am not in
    26  a position at this time of writing that to be specific
    .           P-73

      1  about what kind of camouflage is going on; but it did seem
      2  plain to me on reading this agenda that Himmler had
      3  written for his talk with Hitler, dated either September
      4  17th or 22nd, that if he just jotted down conditions in
      5  the government general and Globus there was possibly
      6  something sinister being discussed between them, but that
      7  Himmler was not going into detail about it. More than
      8  that, I could not say on the basis of what I had.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well. We will have a look at the wording of the Himmler
    10  note.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, it strikes me this is quite
    12  important. Could we — this is for my benefit and, bear
    13  in mind, you have the advantage of me — I just ask about
    14  the reference made in Himmler’s gentle rebuke of 28th July
    15  what, Mr Irving, you understand the liberation of the Jews
    16  entrusted to Himmler by the Fuhrer really means?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: The territories are to be liberated of Jews.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: By the physical deportation or continued shooting or by
    19  gassing?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: My contention here is that Hitler has clearly ordered the
    21  Jews turfed out of all these countries and I have always
    22  said this.
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So it means that and no more than that?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: There is no evidence for anything uglier than that, and
    25  I would be surprised if Professor Evans has found any
    26  evidence that there was and certainly that there was any
    .           P-74

      1  evidence that was before me at the time I wrote the book.
      2  I have been very careful not to go over what the evidence
      3  actually bears out when I write this. When I quote a
      4  document like this, I put in what the document says and
      5  I try to let the reader draw their own conclusions.
      6  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But even now you would take that view, in the light of
      7  your present knowledge?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: With the utmost respect, what I think now is immaterial
      9  for the purposes of the issues pleaded.
    10  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Well, I do not agree for the reason I think I explained
    11  yesterday, namely that if one is judging your approach as
    12  an historian, how you interpret fresh information is
    13  something that we can legitimately ask you about; do you
    14  remember I made that point to you?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I appreciate that point, my Lord. But in that case I
    16  would then have to devote time to looking at the documents
    17  all over again and reevaluating them in order to be able
    18  to give a balanced answer to that now.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: If you feel that you would need to do that, I understand.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I think I would have to do that.
    21  MR RAMPTON  As I am about to embark on the documents, my Lord,
    22  I will ask the question I was going to ask about the entry
    23  in the Himmler log, but then maybe Mr Irving could spend a
    24  little bit of time between the end of that and 2 o’clock
    25  looking at the documents?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: And having lunch.
    .           P-75

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, it is a problem that faces everybody in the
      2  profession, Mr Irving.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, in this volume which you also have, which is
      4  the Himmler diary, it is on page 566, and my date reading
      5  is correct. It is September 17th. You rather worried me
      6  on that.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are right there in saying it does
      8  not in the end matter.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Except that once again, it is only detail, you are quite
    10  right, my Lord. I will save my triumph in private. It is
    11  on the left-hand page.
    12  MR RAMPTON  I agree with you.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: It does not matter, Mr Rampton.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to keep this open.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: His Lordship has ruled it does not matter.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you turn, please, to page 432 of Professor Evans’
    17  report? There you see the English set out more or less as
    18  it is in German. Is that not right?
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Could you give me the reference in the
    20  documents as to where one finds that note?
    21  MR RAMPTON  One does not. One has to look in this book. Can
    22  I hand it up?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry. I assumed it was somewhere.
    24  MR RAMPTON  I cannot find it in —-
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry. I did not realize there was a
    26  problem. I am sorry. I have wasted a certain amount of
    .           P-76

      1  time.
      2  MR RAMPTON  It is quite all right. I think we should have
      3  it. My Lord, in H1(ix).
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I probably have not got it here anyway.
      5  MR RAMPTON  As I have the Witte version, I suggest we give
      6  this to your Lordship.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is just so I have the reference really.
      8  MR RAMPTON  It is at page 364 of the file. Have you got one,
      9  Mr Irving?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: No, but I am very familiar with the document. I am the
    11  one who found it. I am the one who found it and first
    12  used it.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. It says in English, well, in German first,
    14  “volkstung und ziedlung” which means?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Volkstung und ziedlung.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, “volkstung” is one of those very difficult words to
    18  translate. It means nationality or ethnicity.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And “sietlung” just mean “settlement”?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: “And settlement”, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then it says: “Judensauswanderung”?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: “Jew emigration”.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Wiezelweitr verfahren werden”?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: “How should we carry on? “How should it be carried on?”
    25  There is a tick next to it so they discussed it.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And then “Besiedlung” Lublin?
    .           P-77

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: “Resettlement of Lublin” in that sense, really, once it
      2  was empty, then settlement.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And a line against it?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: The sense is that they are going to use people, citizens
      5  from Lorraine, the Germans from Bosnia and ethnic Germans
      6  from Bessarabia which is a province of Romania.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which suggests, does it not, that the Jews who have been
      8  sent on an auswanderung will make room — the Jews of
      9  Lublin — will make room for these people from Loraine,
    10  Bosnia and Bessarabia?

    Section details 78.11-99.10

    11  A. [Mr Irving]: That is a reasonable assumption that the two facts are
    12  interdependent.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then the right-hand column matters not, but
    14  “verhaltnisse”, circumstances, general governor or, no,
    15  General Government it must be, must it not, Globus?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: It could be either, but the likelihood is it is government
    17  general.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Globus, if I may use a wrong word, is the Czar of Lublin
    19  is he not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: He is the chief of police.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and Lublin is in the General Government?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it would fall to Globus — he is an SS man, is he not?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: He was one of the mass murderers.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, he was. He was under Himmler’s, he is in
    26  Himmler’s —-
    .           P-78

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: He is the senior SS and police chief, Hohere SS und
      2  Polizei.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So he has been given, or is going to get, the
      4  responsibility for the further processing or procedure of
      5  the auswanderung and replacement with Germans, ethnic
      6  Germans. That is right, is it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, you are beginning to join dots in a very
      8  adventurous way which is not supported by any of the words
      9  actually on the paper in front of me.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Globus, Lublin is in the General Government?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Globus is head of police, or whatever it is, and, as you
    13  rightly say, one of the mass murderers in Lublin. The
    14  proposal is that Lublin shall be settled with people of
    15  German origin from different parts of Europe, and that
    16  comes immediately under the heading “Emigration of Jews,
    17  how to be further proceeded”?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Right, but you are missing the first word in that line
    19  which is “verhaltnisse” which is circumstances,
    20  conditions, and although, of course, we are now Holocaust
    21  obsessed in this world at present, other things were
    22  happening in the government general than just killing Jews
    23  which is what you would maintain.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, the —-
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: The resettlement programme, the deportation of large
    26  numbers of innocent people to uncertain areas in the East
    .           P-79

      1  was causing great civilian unrest. There were posters
      2  appearing overnight saying, “This week it is the Jews,
      3  next week it may be you, Poles”. There were major
      4  problems of civilian moral problems in the government
      5  general and, if you look at my Goebbels’ biography, you
      6  will see references to this when telegrammes come from the
      7  propaganda offices in these regions, back to the Berlin
      8  Ministry saying, “We are having major problems caused by
      9  this”.
    10  So, this is just one example of the dangers of
    11  leaping from mountain peak to mountain peek. There are
    12  things happening in between of which this document gives
    13  us no cognisance, but of which I have cognisance. So that
    14  why it is very dangerous, I think, to leap to conclusions.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am not leaping to conclusions, Mr Irving. Though
    16  I may not have your enormous wisdom and knowledge on this
    17  topic, I have learned a certain amount. After you have
    18  had a chance to think about the documents which come up to
    19  and beyond this point, ending with the conference in
    20  Berlin on 26th and 28th September — that is the only that
    21  comes after this point —-
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: The conference in Berlin between whom?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — we are going to let everybody take cognisance of the
    24  surrounding material. We can start now if you want.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were in
    26  my discovery for your experts to see relating to the
    .           P-80

      1  severe moral problems and internal unrest caused by the
      2  Nazi methods in Poland.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, I am not saying that there is any certainty
      4  about what this document means, but one of its most
      5  natural interpretation, surely, is this, that the
      6  emigration of the Jews from wherever needed to be further
      7  proceeded, if that is the right translation, and Himmler
      8  wanted Hitler’s views about that. As a subtopic of that,
      9  it was proposed that Lublin should be settled with German
    10  speakers from different parts of Europe. That might
    11  depend upon the verhaltnisse and the responsibility would
    12  be that of Globus within the General Government. It does
    13  not say any more than that on its face, does it?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: It says a lot less than that, Mr Rampton, with respect.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why does it say less?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He is filling in the dots, my Lord, in an overdangerous
    17  way. First of all, this passage in the right-hand column,
    18  if I am familiar with these Himmler’s notes, is something
    19  that has been added either after or during the actual
    20  talk. It is not something which is primarily on the
    21  agenda, but something which has come up. So this is the
    22  first reason why it is dangerous to hang too much on
    23  that. I can only respectfully submit that I made the
    24  proper use of that by referring only to the content of
    25  what the note tells us and not being too adventurous about
    26  speculating to my own advantage or against —-
    .           P-81

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I am not following at the moment is why
      2  you say Mr Rampton is being adventurous. He is simply
      3  saying that this means, on a sensible interpretation,
      4  Lublin is going to have to be resettled?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That I accept.
      6  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: These are the people we intend to resettle there?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That I entirely accept, my Lord.
      8  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: The circumstances need to be discussed and Globus is going
      9  to have something to do with it. That is all Mr Rampton,
    10  I think, was suggesting that paragraph to mean.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I accept the first two parts of that, my Lord, but when he
    12  continues to say that when they are talking about
    13  circumstances and the government general and Globus, this
    14  can only refer to killing Jews. I think this is a very
    15  —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He did not say that.
    17  MR RAMPTON  I did not say that. I have never said it. I will
    18  say it.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: If Mr Rampton does not say that, then we are totally in
    20  accord.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us take it in stages.
    22  MR RAMPTON  I will say it, but I will not say it yet because I
    23  have not laid the ground for it, but be sure as eggs
    24  I will say it, yes, of course.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, then I was right to pre-empt.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, you were not. What, Mr Irving, this document also
    .           P-82

      1  talks about is how to further the emigration of the Jews,
      2  does it not?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: How we are to proceed, yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, yes, how are we to proceed. It has already been
      5  taking place on a large scale from all different parts of
      6  Europe by September 1942, has it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: There are all sorts of train movements going hither and…
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: All over the place, both within the general government and
      9  out of the Reich, and I do not know what the date of the
    10  first Slovakian transport was, and so on and so forth.
    11  That is something which is already well underway. This
    12  document is silent about what is to happen to those Jews
    13  or has happened to those. It is completely silent about
    14  it, is it not?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: That is why I made the reference about wool being pulled
    16  over people’s eyes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, Mr Irving. It is you who has built a huge mountain
    18  out of a tiny little mole hill. Assume two completely
    19  contrary hypotheses either of which could be right:
    20  Hitler does know what happens to the Jews when they
    21  arrive, and when they will arrive they are going to be
    22  killed. That is one hypothesis. He and Himmler would
    23  very well still need to talk about how to get the process
    24  continuing and continuing and continuing, until they had
    25  all gone. That is hypothesis one.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Hypothesis two, Hitler does not know, but, of course, he
    .           P-83

      1  knows about the deportations because he has authorised it.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So on either hypothesis this is a neutral document?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: If your first hypothesis is correct, if these two men are
      4  in cahoots, if I can use gangster slang, why would Himmler
      5  need to use euphemisms?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Because they are actually talking about how to do the
      7  evacuations, the emigrations. You cannot kill somebody in
      8  a gas chamber or a pit somewhere near Lublin unless you
      9  have them there in the first place. You have to evacuate
    10  them emigrate them from, say, Berlin or Vienna or Rome or
    11  wherever it may be and you have to do that. It is a matter
    12  of logistics. It costs money. The trains are needed by
    13  the army. It is a necessary stage in the process, and
    14  there is no reason on earth why Himmler and Hitler should
    15  not have a conversation about that, is there?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: But if they are in cahoots why do we find nowhere in all
    17  these hundreds of sheets these agenda, telephone notes and
    18  all the rest of it anything specific to bear out the
    19  notion that Hitler had ordered the killing of the European
    20  Jews?
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But you have constructed out of this perfectly natural,
    22  normal, neutral document and discussion, if you do not
    23  know the background, a discussion about how to continue
    24  the deportations, and how to make this into German
    25  “labensround”, this area of Poland, Lublin, you have
    26  erected on the basis of that flimsy platform, this
    .           P-84

      1  sentence “Himmler meanwhile continued to pull the wool
      2  over Hitler’s eyes”?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Because there no reference in this —
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why should there be?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: — to any of the sinister things that had happening,
      6  whatever they are.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why should there be? This is not a deceptive document.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is. He is using the euphemisms, which your own experts
      9  agree are the euphemisms for the extermination operation
    10  going on.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you accept that, so far as Himmler is
    12  concerned that when he said “ausvanderung” he was really
    13  in his own mind visualizing what was going on in the —
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: We have a terrible problem with these euphemisms, my Lord,
    15  and this is that the word, the same word can mean
    16  different things used by the same person at different
    17  times.
    18  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — well, take this note, do you regard “ausvanderung”
    19  meaning —
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: It could quite possibly mean that, that in his own mind he
    21  is referring to that, because he knows perfectly well what
    22  is going on.
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — namely?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Shall we just leave it in vague terms, that something ugly
    25  is happening?
    26  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No. You are the historian; what do you think that Himmler
    .           P-85

      1  in his own mind had in —
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: He knows that the Jews —
      3  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — contemplation when he used the word “ausvanderung”?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: — he knows that the Jews are being liquidated and that
      5  very few of them are surviving, as we know from the entry
      6  in Goebbels’ diaries of March 1942 which is quite
      7  definitely an SS. In other words, the Himmler document. It
      8  has gone to Goebbels and has told Goebbels that of those
      9  who are deported and I think Goebbels actually mentions
    10  Lublin, 60 per cent may be fit for work, but 40 per cent
    11  had to be liquidated or the other way round.
    12  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But there is no reason to suppose that Hitler would ever
    13  have seen this note of 22nd September 1942?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: No, but unfortunately we are confronted with a problem, we
    15  can only write history safely on the basis of the paper
    16  before us. But it may well be that two or three pages
    17  later we come across a document which gives one more clue
    18  in the direction that I am trying to lead the readers.
    19  I think it is dishonest just to pick on one fragment and
    20  say, “Mr Irving has only mentioned this”. I have found
    21  this document. I have mentioned. I have put it on the
    22  slate for people to read it, and later on we will find
    23  another document and we will refer to it just the same as
    24  your Lordship quite rightly pointed out that I had
    25  mentioned that 10th February 1942 document earlier on. It
    26  is there somewhere buried in the book and anyone can play
    .           P-86

      1  this exercise of yanking one pebble out of the wall and
      2  saying “Mr Irving has only painted this one pebble”, when
      3  the whole picture is there in the book at the end of it.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am not being critical at the moment, I am simply trying
      5  to understand your thought processes when you approach
      6  this document and as I understand it, correct me if I am
      7  wrong, I am sorry, Mr Rampton, to go on, you accept that
      8  Himmler had it mind that there was mass extermination of
      9  Jews going on?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord —
    11  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: And that that is what he was referring to when he writes
    12  “ausvanderung” of the Jews?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: — I have to be careful, my Lord , because–
    14  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: In paragraph 1?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: — I am constantly aware that I am under oath here and
    16  I am also relating something that happened 35 years ago
    17  when I wrote this manuscript for the first time. These
    18  particular words you are looking at were written by me
    19  probably at the end of the 1960s, so I have to be very
    20  careful when you ask me what my thought processes were.
    21  I can reconstruct them, but that is probably not a very
    22  useful exercise. I have to say that I would have been
    23  aware that later on we have what is called the Korheir
    24  Report, which is referred to earlier today, where Himmler
    25  has said: “Redraft this report in a form that we can show
    26  it to the Fuhrer”, which strongly suggests that there is
    .           P-87

      1  wool pulling going on. That is why I feel safe in
      2  asserting a sentence like that here, because I regard this
      3  document as being evidence that quite probably what
      4  happened on this occasion was a certain amount of wool
      5  pulling. That somebody was being “horn swaggled”, as the
      6  Americans say.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, Mr Rampton, I interrupted.
      8  MR RAMPTON  It is all right. I do not think I have many more
      9  to ask about that particular sentence. I have made my
    10  suggestion. I would like you to look, however, at
    11  something I said I would ask you some questions about, the
    12  earlier part of this passage which begins on page 466,.
    13  Himmler kept his own counsel. From his papers
    14  it emerges that on 9th July his SS Police Chief
    15  Kruger… already briefed him on the solution of the
    16  Jewish problem. On the 16th he visited Hitler.
    17  Photographs in the modern Polish archives”; do you
    18  remember, this is not a memory test, I just wonder whether
    19  you remember where you got the information, Mr Irving,
    20  that Himmler visited Hitler on the 16th?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: I would have to go back to my card index to check. It
    22  could have been from a number of sources.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There is an entry in Witte which says that he had lunch
    24  with Hitler on the 14th, but that is something you could
    25  not have had, because that is one of the entries that has
    26  only recently emerged from Moscow?
    .           P-88

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I would not have had that one.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Except, no, I had Himmler’s — I have Himmler’s diary
      4  here. I will just check it.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You see if you can find anything for the 14th July. What
      6  have you put, the 16th?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: The 16th July we only have the telephone notes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What, you have put the 16th?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: No, the 16th July we only have the telephone notes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. I think that is what I have here, yes. Certain, it
    11  is he saw Hitler either the day before, or a couple of
    12  days before he went to Auschwitz, is it not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Photographs in the modern Polish archives show him
    15  [indeed they do] visiting the immense synthetic rubber
    16  plant. They also show him at the camp itself, on the 17th
    17  and touring the concentration camp itself on the 18th in
    18  the company of his Chief Engineer, SS General Hans Cammler
    19  and Fritz Bracht, the gaulieter of Upper Silesia. Whatever
    20  later historians would claim Hitler himself never visited
    21  any concentration camp, let alone Auschwitz. Historians
    22  would also claim that Himmler witnessed the liquidation of
    23  a train load of Jews on this occasion. This is
    24  apocryphal”. Blah-blah-blah I will not bother to read
    25  this.
    26  Can I go down to the history again? Starting it
    .           P-89

      1  on July 19th 1942: “On July 19th 1942, the day after
      2  Himmler’s tour of Auschwitz, he issued a written order to
      3  Kruger ‘I decree that the transfer of the entire Jewish
      4  population of the General Government is to be carried out
      5  and completed by December 31st 1942′.” That is a document
      6  we will have to look at a bit later, Mr Irving.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Hitler might still be dreaming of Madagascar, but the
      9  head office of the Eastern Railroad at Krakow reported
    10  since July 22nd one train load of 5,000 Jews –”
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I just interrupt there and point to the word “dreaming
    12  of Madagascar”, I think that adequately sums up the
    13  earlier passage.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You say “dreaming”, I say talking in a camouflage way, but
    15  perhaps it really does not matter. It is not a
    16  reality. “Since July 22nd one train load of 5,000 Jews
    17  has been running from Warsaw… to Treblinka every day and
    18  in addition a train load of 5,000 Jews leaves Przemysl
    19  twice a week for Belsec”. Can I stop there. Mr Irving?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We will look at some more documents in relation to those
    22  transports this afternoon. Why was it — in fact, I think
    23  the figures are not quite right, but suppose they are for
    24  the minute, why was it that one train load a day of 5,000
    25  Jews was going from Warsaw to Treblinka and one twice a
    26  week of 5,000 Jews to Belsec from the place which begins
    .           P-90

      1  with P?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: The documents do not tell us, but perhaps it might be
      3  useful if we had a look at a map which will show us
      4  exactly.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to, with his Lordship’s permission, I am going
      6  to give you — this is new to me, I got it last night, so
      7  I have not been hiding it away, it is an original German
      8  army I think military railway map?
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it one of the ones you —
    10  MR RAMPTON  No, your Lordship, has not got it. I had not it
    11  until last night.
    12  THE WITNESS: [Mr Irving]: I certainly have not had it.
    13  MR RAMPTON  Mr Irving has not had it and so everyone can have
    14  it now, and there is one for the witness (same handed).
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, we are moving on to another issue
    16  really now.
    17  MR RAMPTON  Yes, we are. I was actually going to suggest that
    18  I stopped there because I was going to ask just one
    19  question, and then I could give Mr Irving time to have a
    20  bit of lunch and perhaps look forward at some of the
    21  documents which he has referred to here.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Only if he feels he has time to do it over
    23  lunch.
    24  MR RAMPTON  But I am now going to do what I said I would do
    25  this morning, which is to look at the true scale and
    26  nature of what actually happened. This is awkward, I am
    .           P-91

      1  sorry, I should have had sellotaped together, but I did
      2  not have time. If you just hold them roughly on top of
      3  the other because that is how it works, my Lord.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I follow.
      5  MR RAMPTON  We see Warsaw at the top of the map, then you if
      6  go out the key tells us that a double line is a two track
      7  railway, and a single line is a single track railway,
      8  which is logical enough, is it not? The key is in the
      9  bottom right hand corner.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then there is that another marking, which we do not have
    12  to bother about, which is the actual, I think, German
    13  railway as opposed to the Russian one or the Polish one.
    14  A different gauge, I think. The line runs north/east or
    15  east/north/east out of Warsaw to a place called Malkinia;
    16  do you see that?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Just on the border with White Russia?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And there is a sharp right turn and the first dot down
    21  that single line is Treblinka.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then if you go to Lublin and you go east/south/east
    24  towards the Russian border you come to a place Kelm or
    25  Khelm.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: First of all Treblinka and then Kelm, yes.
    .           P-92

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And you go sharp left northwards to Sobibor?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which is just again next to the border. If on the other
      4  hand you turn right before you get to Kelm or Khelm and go
      5  to Savadar, again, travelling right down to the border on
      6  a single line you get to Belsec?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Those, Mr Irving, were little villages in the middle of
      9  nowhere, and from the 22nd July 1942, if these figures you
    10  have given in your book are right, which they are not
    11  quite, but the volume, if you multiply, must be hundreds
    12  of thousands of Jews transported from Lublin and Warsaw
    13  and as I shall show you after the adjournment also from
    14  the East; what were those Jews going to do in these three
    15  villages on the Russian border?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: The documents before me did not tell me.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but try and construct in your own mind, as an
    18  historian, a convincing explanation.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: There would be any number of convincing explanations, from
    20  the most sinister to the most innocent. What is the
    21  object of that exercise? It is irrelevant to the issues
    22  pleaded here, I shall strongly argue that, it would have
    23  been —
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you want to take that point, can you —
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: — it would have been irresponsible of me to have
    26  speculated in this book, which is already overweight, and
    .           P-93

      1  start adding in my own totally amateurish speculation.
      2  MR RAMPTON  No, you mistake me, Mr Irving, it is probably not
      3  your fault I, as his Lordship spotted what I have done,
      4  I have taken what you have wrote in the book as a stepping
      5  stone to my next exercise, which is to show the scale of
      6  the operation, and in due course, and I give you fair
      7  warning, to demonstrate that anybody who supposes that
      8  those hundreds of thousands of Jews were sent to these
      9  tiny little villages, what shall we say, in order to
    10  restore their health, is either mad or a liar.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: — Mr Rampton, can I just draw one parallel and say during
    12  World War II large numbers of people were sent to
    13  Aldershot, which is also a tiny village, but I do not
    14  think anybody is alleging there were gas chambers at
    15  Aldershot.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think actually the problem Mr Irving has is
    17  we moved on a different phase of the case. We are no
    18  longer dealing with allegations of manipulating the
    19  historical records which we were when we were going
    20  through “Hitler’s War” and so on. I think really Mr
    21  Rampton is now on the issue of Holocaust denial, where the
    22  defence case is that what you have said flies in the face
    23  of evidence, but it is not an allegation of manipulating
    24  the record. Do you follow what we are on now?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: The evidence he has adduced so far apart from that is from
    26  my own books.
    .           P-94

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You objected to the question, I am trying to
      2  explain what I perceive at the moment to be its relevance.
      3  MR RAMPTON  Your Lordship is absolutely right.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton knows which way he is going, but of course
      5  I have to prepare little minefields all the way round just
      6  in case.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is important you know where he is going
      8  and that is why I was trying to help you. Anyway I think
      9  the question perhaps needs to be put again, does it,
    10  because I am not sure there has been an answer yet.
    11  MR RAMPTON  No. I suggest, Mr Irving, that anybody — any
    12  sane, sensible person would deduce from all the evidence,
    13  all the available evidence, including, if you like, the
    14  shootings in the East which you have accepted, would
    15  conclude that these hundreds of thousands of Jews were not
    16  being shipped to these tiny little places on the Russian
    17  border in Eastern Poland for a benign purpose?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, what possible other conclusion could somebody
    19  have drawn from reading that page in my book? You are
    20  implying that the reader is being invited to draw a
    21  different conclusion.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I am wondering what your position is, you see,
    23  Mr Irving, because if it is simply this; I accept that the
    24  Germans systematically murdered Jews in vast numbers
    25  throughout 1941, accelerating through 1942 1943 and
    26  reaching a crescendo in 1944, but I simply do not accept
    .           P-95

      1  there were any gas chambers, then I am not bothered
      2  because it does not matter how it is done, the fact is it
      3  is a systematic genocide. I want to know whether you
      4  accept that; if you do accept it, then we can forget the
      5  Professor van Pelt and all his works and everything else
      6  beside in relation to Holocaust denial.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: It is my belief that Professor van Pelt’s purpose in
      8  coming here is prove to us that the gas chambers at
      9  Auschwitz existed.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He is not. He is coming here to demolish the basis of
    11  your Holocaust denial, which is the Leuchter Report,
    12  amongst other things?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: But the Leuchter Report relies solely on the gas chambers
    14  in Auschwitz. So there seems to be a contradiction in
    15  what you said.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So if, for example, Franjiseck Piper, the custodian of the
    17  museum as he was, at Auschwitz, now proposes a figure of
    18  1.whatever it is, 2 million Jews murdered, I do not mean
    19  worked to death or killed by types, murdered in Auschwitz,
    20  you are going to accept that, are you?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: No. I have a good reason not to and —
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I think in that case we are back to where we are, alas.
    23  I thought I saw a chink of daylight, but it is not there.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right, well, I am not clear in my mind what
    25  it is that it is suggested Mr Irving may need to look at
    26  over the luncheon adjournment. I have no idea whether it
    .           P-96

      1  is practical to ask him to do that or whether it is not.
      2  MR RAMPTON  It is probably not, because they are spread all
      3  over the bundles and that would be quite unreasonable
      4  because he would have to stay here and I would have spend
      5  at any rate 40 minutes giving him a list of documents and
      6  that would not be sensible either. I will go as
      7  cautiously as I can in the afternoon and I will try and
      8  make sure if I do not remember, perhaps your Lordship
      9  will, to find out as I ask the questions whether the
    10  documents in question is one that he has seen before or
    11  not.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. Mr Irving, do you have any problems
    13  with that? You are going to be asked about documents
    14  which I suspect you know about now, but you may well say
    15  in relation to it some of them, well, I see that now and
    16  I saw that last summer, but I did not know about it when
    17  I was writing “Hitler’s War”?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I am in your Lordship’s hand on that matter but where
    19  possible I shall state which ones I have seen for the
    20  first time.
    21  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That will not cause you a problem, will it?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: No. Your Lordship will decide later on whether it is
    23  relevant or not.
    24  MR RAMPTON  I will give your Lordship a copy too. I am not
    25  saying it is exhaustive, complete, or comprehensive —
    26  what Miss Rogers and I have done is to produce a
    .           P-97

      1  chronological list of the relevant events. I am not going
      2  to start at the beginning of this in my cross-examination,
      3  but it does give Mr Irving an idea of what I will be
      4  asking about this afternoon.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The topic is what?
      6  MR RAMPTON  The topic is the scale of what happened during the
      7  summer and early autumn of 1942, from which one can make
      8  quite obvious deductions, both about system and knowledge,
      9  and also about the intent.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Your case is these are deaths in the gas
    11  chambers?
    12  MR RAMPTON  Oh, there is no question.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They started operating in November 1941.
    14  MR RAMPTON  The first gassings start systematically in
    15  December 1941 at Chelmo, I am not going to deal with
    16  Chelmo this afternoon, except at the tail end if I get
    17  there. There is the three Reinhardt camps; Belsec,
    18  Sobibor and Treblinka. They used a different system of
    19  gassing. They used a vehicle exhaust —
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Carbon?
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — carbon monoxide. You can also suffocate someone with
    22  carbon dioxide, can you not?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: You can suffocate someone by locking them into a closed
    24  room.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And by hydrogen cyanide at Auschwitz. I do not say there
    26  were not some random murders as well by kicking, shooting,
    .           P-98

    Part III: David Irving’s Cross-Examination by Richard Rampton, continued, Afternoon Session (99.11 to 187.3)

      1  but the system was gas?
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, so Mr Irving is going to get a copy of
      3  this, so at any rate he will have some; is that right?
      4  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, that will at any rate give you
      6  some foretaste of what is to come this afternoon.
      7  MR RAMPTON  I am not saying he must read it. But it might be
      8  helpful if he did.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We will adjourn now and resume at 2.00 pm.
    10  (Luncheon Adjournment)

    Section details 99.11-126.4

    11  MR DAVID IRVING, continued.
    12  Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON QC, continued.
    13  THE WITNESS: [Mr Irving]: My Lord, before he begins his cross-examination
    14  on this, can I make a few general observations on these
    15  documents?
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What difficulties you are going to have
    17  dealing with them, or what?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: I would draw attention to three general observations which
    19  I may not have a chance to make when we go through them
    20  document by document.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is fair, Mr Rampton.
    22  MR RAMPTON  It is what?
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Fair that he should do so now before going
    24  through these various documents.
    25  MR RAMPTON  I did not hear, I was looking for documents.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He going to make three points and I am going
    .           P-99

      1  to allow that to happen?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: General observations, and please interrupt me if you think
      3  they are wrong. Obviously, some of them I am familiar
      4  with because they come from my own records, some of them
      5  I am not. I am unhappy about the elipses, the passages
      6  that have been left out. I do hope we will have a chance
      7  to see the whole document rather than just these
      8  abbreviated versions.
      9  MR RAMPTON  Oh, yes, carry on.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: In general, of course, there are much larger elipses which
    11  are the material surrounding the documents, if I could put
    12  it like that, which are not represented here.
    13  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: The second observation I would make, my Lord, is this.
    15  Bear in mind all along that we are now 55 years down the
    16  road since the end of World War Two and we are entitled to
    17  expect a better quality of evidence and documentation from
    18  the archives than would have been accepted, say, in 1945
    19  or 1946. This is the standard I have always held in front
    20  of myself. I say to myself if, even now, there are no
    21  better documents than this, therefore we have to be much
    22  more careful about how we assess these documents that are
    23  put to us. We are no longer entitled to jump across from
    24  mountain peak to mountain peak. We have to say that, if
    25  there are no other documents, then there is probably a
    26  reason why there are no other documents. That is the sum
    .           P-100

      1  total of the observation I wish to make.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
      3  MR RAMPTON  As to that last point, Mr Irving, jumping from
      4  mountain peak to mountain peak may sometimes be
      5  necessary. Sometimes one can do it because one knows what
      6  is lying on the ground in between, and there is nothing
      7  the matter with that, is there?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, from one’s general expertise.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, no, the general array of evidence. Mr Irving, never
    10  mind that for the moment. It is the fact, is it not,
    11  perhaps I am wrong but I do not think so, I think you said
    12  it several times in this court, what I might call the
    13  residue of German wartime documents that we have got,
    14  whether from the bottom fighting units, police units or
    15  whatever, right up to the top, is fragmentary?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I would say on the contrary, it is there in embarrassing
    17  superabundance.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We have everything, have we?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: There is such a volume of documentation that in the United
    20  States they still have not finished cataloguing it. They
    21  are still working on it and usually the Germans create
    22  multiple copies of the documents that they are dealing
    23  with. So, if they had destroyed in one place, they would
    24  exist in another.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So, unless a document has been deliberately destroyed,
    26  which it might well have been, one could expect to find it
    .           P-101

      1  somewhere at some stage in the future near or far? Is
      2  that right?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I would have expected to have found it in the past,
      4  frankly, at least one copy of it.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, the possibility remains that there are certain kinds
      6  of documents which certain kinds of people at certain
      7  times in history will set out deliberately to destroy?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I think this is a useful discussion. Yes, I think that
      9  with certain kind of documents one would have expected
    10  people to attach priority to their destruction but, even
    11  if that is the case, there will always be somebody
    12  slightly lower down in that chain of hierarchy between the
    13  person who gives the orders and the person who executes
    14  them who has felt a qualm of conscience or a pang of
    15  conscience, and who has written to his wife, saying we
    16  have to carry out orders that are too ghastly even to
    17  think of, and I found documents just like that, too.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You found a letter that the officer Dr Otto Schutz Duval
    19  wrote to his wife, did you not?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I did not find that, no.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You did not, but that is such an example, is it not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: I am afraid I am not familiar with that document unless
    23  you remind me of it.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You refer to it on your web site.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Somebody else found it, obviously posted it and put it on
    26  the web site. I am talking about around Hitler’s level
    .           P-102

      1  there with generals who wrote letters of precisely that
      2  content, saying they are doing things in Poland that I do
      3  not even like to tell you about.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That process, what one might call the workings of
      5  conscience or anything else, might account for what you
      6  have called the occasional orphan document, might it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes indeed, but also there could be an uglier process,
      8  namely a document created like the identity card of Mr
      9  Ivan Demjanjuk, which turns out to have been generated by
    10  the KGB for whatever purpose. We have to be constantly on
    11  the look out, particularly for documents coming from
    12  Russian or KGB archives. It is a remote possibility, but
    13  we have to be alert to that possibility.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Of course that is absolutely right. Can we start
    15  please — I know you will think or may think initially
    16  that this is somewhat anachronistic out of our chronology
    17  but it is not really as you will see in a moment — a
    18  document which I am sure you are familiar with. My Lord,
    19  it is in bundle H4 (v).
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid that is one I do not have here.
    21  MR RAMPTON  We seem to have quite a lot of spares here.
    22  Footnote 187. These are Dr Longerich’s documents?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I think I am the first person to have quoted this
    24  document in fact ever.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Again, I am afraid it is a document which is sideways in
    26  the file. This is a reprint of the original. It is very
    .           P-103

      1  short. It is document No. 54 at the top of page 157 on
      2  the right-hand side: “Schreiben Himmlers an den Gauleiter
      3  im Wartheland Geiser: Ankundigung von Judentransporten
      4  aus dem Reich nach Lodz, 18.9.1941″, which means, being
      5  translated, Mr Irving?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Which sentence are you reading?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I read the heading at 54?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Letter from Himmler to Gauleiter in the Wartheland
      9  Greiser, forewarning of the arrival of Jewish transports
    10  from the Reich in Lodz or Lodsch in Litzmannstatt, as the
    11  Germans call it, on September 18th, 1941.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I will not read the German. Does it say: The Fuhrer
    13  wishes that, as quickly as possible, the Altreich and the
    14  Protectorate, that Bohemia and Moravia, is it not, shall
    15  be cleared and free of Jews from West to East?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you accept that as evidence of, I do not know what the
    18  word is but it does not matter, something that Hitler has
    19  told Himmler he wants done?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, Hitler has taken the initiative and has ordered the
    21  emptying out.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Which is made quite plain in all my books also, of course.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If mere deportation from central and Western Europe is
    25  Hitler’s idea of a losung, maybe even an endlosung, until
    26  Madagascar is free, this is the date at which it takes
    .           P-104

      1  effect?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Not precisely on this date. It would have been any date
      3  up to this date.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: From this date?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It takes effect from this date.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: From this date. Well, can we then leap forward in time
      7  please, in this file?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I just express a certain amount of dismay that we are
      9  having printed versions of these telegrams shown us to and
    10  not the originals? The reason for that is that the
    11  originals have certain paraphernalia attached to them,
    12  which are not without significance. I am referring
    13  specifically to their security classification, because
    14  I intend later on to draw conclusions from documents which
    15  have security classifications and documents which do not,
    16  what you call janitorial level, or what I call janitorial
    17  level documents, and we do not know what classification
    18  this document has. That does help us — I am sorry to
    19  speak so quickly — to classify in the other sense a
    20  document into its degree of importance, whether it has the
    21  very highest security grading or no security
    22  classification. We cannot tell from this of course
    23  because the editor has taken it off.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I fear Mr Irving, I am naked in this regard. I have no
    25  originals.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, you do. It was in my discovery, and it should have
    .           P-105

      1  been put in the bundles rather than this printed version.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, please do not let’s get on to that again.
      3  I was trying to explain yesterday that, by oversight or
      4  whatever, I think you were away for quite a long time in
      5  the autumn, there was no discussion about what documents
      6  you wanted included in the bundles and that is the sole
      7  reason?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It is regrettable because we are robbed or deprived of
      9  that possibility.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There we are. We have to make the best we
    11  can of what we have got.
    12  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, if this is something which is troubling
    13  Mr Irving, which it obviously has been for some time, if
    14  he has any time in the three day weekend which is coming
    15  up, because we shall be going on to Auschwitz the week
    16  after, therefore there will not be much need to refer to
    17  this kind of document, he should make a list of those
    18  documents in his discovery, he will know very well which
    19  they are, which he would like us to copy as originals and
    20  put into these bundles.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure he will do it if he has the time.
    22  MR RAMPTON  That is what I mean.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, they were all copied for them originally. They
    24  have copies of the entire discovery.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point is to make a selection of the ones
    26  that you regard as being important. Anyway, we have this
    .           P-106

      1  document, we have seen what it says, it has never really
      2  been in doubt, but it is a start, you say, Mr Rampton.
      3  MR RAMPTON  Can we now turn, please, forward and also forward
      4  in the bundle, to footnote 245. It is in the same file.
      5  Again, I apologise profusely for the fact that I do not
      6  think I have the original of it. Footnote, 1st May 1942,
      7  tab 25 if it helps anybody find it.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are all these documents going to be in German
      9  without a translation?
    10  MR RAMPTON  There is a translation of this one, my Lord. I am
    11  just looking for it, because it is annoying.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It just takes longer.
    13  MR RAMPTON  I did observe that I think Mr Irving said he did
    14  not want just to look at summaries of translations. He
    15  wanted to look, so far as he could, at the original
    16  document. I am respecting that until such time as your
    17  Lordship tells me to ignore it.
    18  My Lord, there is a summary, in part a
    19  translation on page 53.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of what?
    21  MR RAMPTON  Of Dr Longerich’s report, part 2, page 53,
    22  paragraph 1.3. Have you got that too, Mr Irving?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Very shortly, yes. Document September 18th, by the way,
    24  was on page 326 of Hitler’s War translated in full.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: This one is presumably on page 330. The one we are
    .           P-107

      1  looking at now is on page 330 of Hitler’s War, the
      2  original edition.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not suppose much of what I am going to put to you is
      4  going to be controversial, save in point of
      5  interpretation, not translation. There may be some things
      6  you have not seen before, in which case then you must say
      7  so.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I have seen this document.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Obviously you have. It would not be in the book,
    10  otherwise. It says, does it not, in effect this: Greiser
    11  is writing to Himmler, and he says that the “special
    12  treatment” — the word is Sonderbehandlung — “of about
    13  100,000 Jews in my district was authorized by you in
    14  agreement with Heydrich, and that it could be completed
    15  within the next two to three months”?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: “You” in this case is of course Himmler, not Hitler.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh sure.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I said it is a letter from Greiser to Himmler.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but it is an important point to make. It shows where
    21  this particular system link ends.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, you say that. That is assuming that Himmler never
    23  communicated any of this sort of stuff to Hitler.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: I am just drawing attention to what this actual document
    25  says, Mr Rampton.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I follow that.
    .           P-108

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: The special treatment which you, Mr Himmler, and Heydrich
      2  have both authorized.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we just leave Adolf Hitler out of this for the
      4  moment? I am not actually on Adolf Hitler. I will have
      5  to come back him, no doubt. I am dealing now with the
      6  scale and systematic nature of this operation, whatever
      7  this operation may turn out to be.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Very well.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Here in May of 1942, following an order or whatever you
    10  like to call it from Hitler, that the OutReich and the
    11  Protectorate are to be cleared of their Jews, Himmler gets
    12  a letter from Greiser saying that he can clear out, no,
    13  specially handle, whatever that may mean, about 100,000
    14  Jews in his gaugebiet, which is the Warthegau, in the next
    15  two to three months.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, is that the first reference to
    18  sonderbehandlung that one finds in the documents?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, we have had it once or twice up to this point, I
    20  believe.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I mean chronologically?
    22  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, that is a very good question, if I may
    23  say so. I do mean it is a good question because I do not
    24  know the answer.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: With this sinister meaning, yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There may be something in Professor Browning, I do not
    .           P-109

      1  know. This means killing, does it not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: In the light of what subsequently happened, yes, but it is
      3  not evident from this particular document.
      4  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But not in gas chambers?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Not necessarily, no, not evident from this particular
      6  document.
      7  MR RAMPTON  Where were the Jews of the Warthegau killed,
      8  Mr Irving?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know, and I suspect that you cannot tell from
    10  this document either.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but I know what went on at Chelmno, as indeed do you,
    12  do you not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: We know that there was a killing operation started there,
    14  yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: With the use of gas trucks?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: That is possible, yes.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Well, let us look at another document in the same
    18  file. This is one you may not have seen before but, as
    19  I say, I am doing two things at once so, notwithstanding
    20  that you have not seen them before if you have not, could
    21  you look at footnote 247? It is just a couple of pages on
    22  from the one we looked at. This is a reprint from a book
    23  call Faschismus, I do not know who wrote it, which I am
    24  sure is German for “fascism”. Have you seen this before?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not, no. It is a translation into German from the
    26  Polish, presumably.
    .           P-110

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I think probably not. If you look at item 218, Auszug
      2  aus einem Lagebericht…
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but that comes from a totally different provenance,
      4  according to the following page. It come from AIM,
      5  Gestapo Lodsch.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: How do you know what document it is that I am talking
      7  about?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: You are talking about document 217.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, 218.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sorry.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you read the part of 218 that is printed on that
    12  page, and the first part down to the words ” geschaffen
    13  worden ist” on the next page in German. I am certainly
    14  not going to do that.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: You wish me to read it out in German?
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there not an English version? This is not
    18  a very happy way of doing it, is it? It is terribly
    19  laborious.
    20  MR RAMPTON  I have not got a translation of this particular
    21  book.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not even in Longerich?
    23  MR RAMPTON  It is noted in Longerich, as you can see. The
    24  document is 9th June 1942.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not in your schedule, is it?
    26  MR RAMPTON  It is footnoted. It is not in my schedule, no.
    .           P-111

      1  It is a document I found quite late.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If there is no alternative, we will have to
      3  do that way.
      4  MR RAMPTON  Right, I only want to ask one question really
      5  about this. That is a report from the Gestapo in Lodsch
      6  about movement of Jews, is it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. What it is saying is, we make space for Jews coming
      9  — I am paraphrasing — in from the Outreich and the
    10  Ostmark by, I do not know whether the word is displacing,
    11  resettling, the Jews that are already in the ghetto at
    12  Lodsch?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. This was always the policy. There would be a stage
    14  by stage ripple, shall we say.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does the last phrase in the fifth line and sixth
    16  lines of 247 mean? “… So das nunmehr fur zirka 55000
    17  Juden Platz im Ghetto geschaffen worden ist”?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: So that we have now generated enough space for about
    19  55,000 Jews in the ghetto.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That must mean that about 55,000 Jews more or less have
    21  been moved out somewhere?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, assuming that the ghetto had not been expanded at
    23  that time.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sure, but, if you look at the table above, which may
    25  indeed have a different source, it may have been
    26  translated from the Polish, I do not know, 217, do you see
    .           P-112

      1  the right hand column “Abgang”?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the subheading “Ausgesiedelt”?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which means settled, taken away?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The first of the two columns in the middle says nach
      8  Kulmhof, does it not?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: To Chelmno, yes.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the same as Chelmno, is it?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    12  MR RAMPTON  That is Chelmno. If you total up the figures in
    13  that column, they come, I can tell you, to 54,990.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So that is where, using a reasonable degree of
    16  intelligence and interpretive wisdom, Mr Irving, those
    17  55,000 Jews in this Gestapo report have gone, is it not?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Effectively, from January to May.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is right, in five months?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: In five months, yes. You are confronting me with these
    21  documents. I am seeing it for the first time. I think we
    22  are learning together. We are reading them together and
    23  I will accept that as an interpretation, yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you. Are you prepared to say what you think might
    25  have happened to those 55,000 Jews that were sent to
    26  Chelmno in the first months of 1942?
    .           P-113

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Not on the basis of just those two documents, no. I think
      2  it would be highly irresponsible to do so. I am just
      3  looking at where Chelmno is on the map.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do you know anything about what was at Chelmno?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: We know something about what was at Chelmno. There were
      6  these gas trucks that were disposing of people at some
      7  time during the war, but whether they were operating in
      8  these five months, I do not know. I notice that Chelmno
      9  is on the border to the East, and an equally plausible
    10  interpretation would be that they had been sent there as
    11  the first stepping stage to go somewhere East. I am not
    12  saying this is what happened.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Chelmno?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, no, Chelmno, you are quite mistaken. Chelmno is in
    16  the Warthegau. It is about 40 kilometres west-north-west
    17  of Lublin.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It is off this map?
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, it is not on the map but I can tell you that it is on
    20  every map I have ever looked at. Chelmno is in the
    21  Warthegau.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Of Lublin?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Sorry, Lodsch. Did I say Lublin?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It will not be on this map then.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought Chelmno was the same as Chelm.
    .           P-114

      1  MR RAMPTON  No, it is not.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought that is what I was told this
      3  morning.
      4  MR RAMPTON  No, it is not.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So Chelmno is not here at all.
      6  MR RAMPTON  Unless I can find it. I think this is Eastern
      7  Poland. I think this is a general Government map. It is
      8  not a map of the Warthegau at all. Your Lordship does
      9  have some coloured maps.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I do. I have found Chelmno on one of
    11  them.
    12  MR RAMPTON  You will find Chelmno, as I say, about 40
    13  kilometres West.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Whatever. The precise answer is that, on the basis of
    15  these two documents, we can say that that is on the
    16  balance of probabilities the identical 55,000 people.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I agree.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: But we cannot say on the basis of those two documents what
    19  happened to those.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Chelmno is in fact some distance West of
    21  Warsaw.
    22  MR RAMPTON  Yes, but also West of Lodsch.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
    24  MR RAMPTON  This is a different grouping, if I may call it
    25  that, of Jews in some sense. These are the Jews of the
    26  Warthegau that no doubt form part of the figure given by
    .           P-115

      1  Dr Korheir in March 1943.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: This is the kind of statistical basis that would have been
      3  provided to that statistician, yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In that document he said that the Jews of the Warthegau,
      5  I forget how many, 145,000 I think, had undergone
      6  Sonderbehandlung, did he not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not going to answer that without seeing the document.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You remember, we discussed it this morning. You agreed
      9  with me. The Korheir report that Himmler had edited?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but whether those specific ones — I know the phrase
    11  Sonderbehandlung … comes into the document but whether
    12  it is specifically the Warthegau Jews he is referring to.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He referred to 145,000 Warthegau Jews and some whatever
    14  million Polish Jews.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, if that is what the document says.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: As far as I recall, it does. It is something like that.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was Chelmno a village like Sobibor?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I am as ill informed as your Lordship is on this. I am
    20  not an expert on these matter but I am prepared to blunder
    21  around in the darkness along with Mr Rampton.
    22  MR RAMPTON  I think Professor Van Pelt may have something to
    23  say about that if asked, and so would, no doubt, Professor
    24  Browning.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The odd thing about it is that they are going
    26  West rather than East.
    .           P-116

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: That point obviously does stand out.
      2  MR RAMPTON  If you are going to kill large numbers of people,
      3  it does not matter how you do it or where you do it,
      4  provided you do it with a degree of concealment or
      5  discretion, does it, Mr Irving?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: You are absolutely right. But I repeat, of course, that
      7  the conclusions you are drawing are not actually included
      8  in the two documents you have so far put to us.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No it is a little piece of evidence along the way,
    10  Mr Irving.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: After 55 years we are entitled to more than just little
    12  bits of evidence, particularly now that the Polish
    13  archives and the Russian archives are open to us.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We go over this again and again and again, you see. I am
    15  not looking for a single document as you are, Mr Irving.
    16  I am looking at a jigsaw puzzle and I am trying to fit the
    17  pieces together. When I have done that, I look at the
    18  picture and I say, as an intelligent historian with an
    19  open mind, what does this tell me?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: I think you are absolutely right. I do exactly the same
    21  exercise but I think I am applying possibly slightly
    22  stricter criteria, because one is always liable to be
    23  ambushed ten years down the road by a document which
    24  produces a completely different conclusion. The closer
    25  you adhere to the original documents, if you possibly can,
    26  the less likely you are to be ambushed. For example, when
    .           P-117

      1  the entire Goebbels’ diaries came out about 15/20 years
      2  ago, I contacted the editors and I said is there any
      3  document that proves me wrong because I am quite happy to
      4  be proven wrong. That is exactly the kind of nightmare
      5  that awaits you, that suddenly some new huge archive may
      6  open up like the entire Auschwitz archive, as happened
      7  quite recently, and the documents may be there to prove
      8  that you made irresponsible conclusions.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But does the responsible historian take
    10  account also of the fact that we do know that quite a lot
    11  of what you might call the compromising documents were
    12  destroyed deliberately as the Russian army advanced
    13  westward?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, the entire Auschwitz archives were captured by
    15  the Russians, as we shall be hearing from the expert
    16  witnesses, which is a very substantial trove. It was not
    17  just any archives, it was the entire Auschwitz
    18  construction archives. The same happened in Mydonek when
    19  the Russians captured Mydonek.
    20  MR RAMPTON  Can we try to speed up a bit, Mr Irving, because
    21  this is uncontroversial. Have you still got that tabular
    22  sort of chronology summary document we gave you before the
    23  adjournment?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We put at the bottom of page 6 that Himmler had lunch with
    26  Hitler on 14th July. We took that from the Witte book.
    .           P-118

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You in your books say he saw him on 16th. It does not
      3  probably matter, does it?.
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: It may well be that — he was constantly in and out. It
      5  may well be that I had a letter that Himmler wrote to
      6  Berger, for example, in which he said, “Yesterday I had
      7  lunch with the Fuhrer”. This is the kind of source that
      8  you would extract that information from. I have now
      9  obtained access to all the private letters that Himmler
    10  wrote to his mistress where he describes this very trip to
    11  Auschwitz, that kind of material. You are constantly
    12  coming across new material.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: At all events, either one day or three days after meeting
    14  Hitler, Himmler goes to Eastern Europe, he goes to
    15  Auschwitz first?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: He goes on quite a swing around the occupied territories.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: On 19th he is in Lublin?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Eventually, I think, he winds up in Finland or somewhere
    20  like that, but never mind that. He goes to Auschwitz.
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: We have, of course, the private shorthand diary of
    22  Himmler’s personal assistant, Rudolph Brant, for this
    23  entire period, about a 300 page shorthand diary, which
    24  I had transcribed and to which you have made no reference
    25  in this, I see.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I did not know about it and I know not whether it has any
    .           P-119

      1  relevance or significance?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: It has been in my discovery and your instructing
      3  solicitors have photocopied the entire document.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I have no knowledge whether it has any significance or
      5  relevance for this case.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It has negative significance in as much as it is
      7  shorthand, it is kept by Himmler’s personal assistant, and
      8  yet it contains none of the kind of evidence that one
      9  would have liked to have found.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now there is a document which I think we need to look at,
    11  which is having been to Auschwitz on 17th and 18th July
    12  1942 — if anybody wants to see it, there is a photograph
    13  of the visit in the Witte book.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Gerald Fleming also publishes it.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We do not really need to look at it, do we?
    16  MR RAMPTON  I do not think you need to look at it, no,
    17  I agree.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it shows who went. Kamla was there, the man who
    19  built Auschwitz.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The architect, Bischoff, was there?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Bischoff was there. Presumably, Dejaco was also there —
    22  all the local notables. Mr Dejaco is D-E-J-A-C-O.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now Mr Irving will need file H3 (ii).
    24  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, this is a document referred to on pages
    25  63 to 64 of, so I am told — can I just — you perhaps
    26  would like to have it open in front of you, page 63, my
    .           P-120

      1  Lord?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Of?
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of Browning.
      4  MR RAMPTON  Of Browning. Could you turn to page 63, please?
      5  I will just read out what Professor Browning says: “An
      6  earlier document mentioning Einsatz Reinhard”. We can
      7  translate that as “Operation Reinhard”, can we?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Not spelt that way though.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I am sorry you will have to look at the document in
    10  a moment. It dates from July 18th 1942. “It is a form on
    11  which the personnel specially authorized ‘for the carrying
    12  out of the work of the Jewish resettlement within the
    13  framework of Operation Reinhard” by the SS and police
    14  leader in the Lublin district’ acknowledged having been
    15  orientated to specific rules of secrecy by SS Amtstung
    16  Fuhrer Hofle on Globocnik’s staff. They were forbidden to
    17  make any communication, verbal or in writing, concerning
    18  the Jewish resettlement, Juden umsiedlung, under any
    19  circumstances to anyone outside of Operation Reinhard.
    20  Moreover, there was ‘an explicit prohibition against
    21  photography in the camps of Operation Reinhard'”.
    22  Would you just glance, please, or more than
    23  glance, at the document which is in footnote 154 in volume
    24  H3(ii).
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  154.
    26  MR RAMPTON  154, my Lord, behind tab 16 in H3(ii).
    .           P-121

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  153.
      2  MR RAMPTON  This document is the right way up. Again it looks
      3  to me like a reprint?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Again it is a printed document.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What? It looks like a reproduction, this, does it not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: 154, document 228 you are talking about?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, document 228.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it is a print.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. Have you seen the original of this?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not, no.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Did you know of its existence?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Has Professor Browning — I will give you a moment in a
    14  minute — is my question summarized its effect correctly?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, and I am familiar with the security, the secrecy
    16  declarations. I have seen several of them, particularly
    17  in connection with Auschwitz itself.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You see how, at any rate, in this version —-
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — in July 1942, Reinhard is spelt?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, in this printed version.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In this printed version.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The spelling that you prefer, Mr Irving, has a “T” on the
    25  end, does it not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: You are rather presuming, but, in fact, there are disputes
    .           P-122

      1  about how it should be spelt and perhaps I should explain
      2  to his Lordship the reason for the…
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is Heydrich?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Obviously, the diminuendo is named in honour of Reinhart
      5  Heydrich who had been assassinated a month earlier. But,
      6  in fact, Operation Reinhard in its documentation, and I
      7  can produce other documents which very much go in this
      8  direction, there is an operation run by State Secretary,
      9  Fritz Reinhart, of the German Ministry of Finance who is a
    10  leading Nazi in that ministry who was in charge of the
    11  expropriation and looting of stolen Jewish property. This
    12  was a primary concern of these SS gangsters on the Eastern
    13  Front to round up the Jews and rob them blind and take
    14  their gold and everything else. Then it want to the
    15  Ministry of Finance literally. It was appropriated by the
    16  Reich. That is how it became known as Operation Reinhart,
    17  but I do agree that sometimes the documents leave out the
    18  “T” because of confusion.
    19  MR RAMPTON  Professor Browning, Mr Irving, only a few pages on
    20  at page 66, at the bottom of page 66 —-
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — you may dispute it, but this is what he says, tells us
    23  that the spelling of “Operation Reinhart” with a “T”
    24  begins only in late 1943?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: There are documents prior to that, and only two months ago
    26  I was sitting in the Hoover Library in California going
    .           P-123

      1  through a whole file on Operation Reinhart from Himmler’s
      2  files which details in very great degree the financial
      3  expropriation that went on, the gold rings, the watches,
      4  the whole of the business of recycling the stolen
      5  property.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And is your thesis this then, I do not know, perhaps I had
      7  better ask you an open question, what is your thesis as to
      8  the nature of Operation Reinhard?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not setting up a rival thesis, Mr Rampton. I am just
    10  rattling slightly at yours and saying it is not quite as
    11  concrete and cast in stone as possibly you would like
    12  people to believe.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You will find when you question Professor Browning that he
    14  does not say either that it is certain that it is named
    15  after Reinhart Heydrich. All he notices is that the
    16  spelling undergoes a change. What he is perfectly certain
    17  about, and this is what matters in this case, is that it
    18  was a killing operation as an adjunct of which the Nazis
    19  stole the property of the dead people?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, without wishing to reveal too much about what
    21  I intend to cross-examine Professor Browning on, I can say
    22  I that I shall be putting to him certain documents on the
    23  letter head of Heinreich Himmler, the Chief of the SS,
    24  which in the typical German Civil Service then have the
    25  sub-departments and the sub-departs indicated in the
    26  reference number, and you come to “Verwaltung” which is
    .           P-124

      1  administration, “Reinhard” and so on and the document is
      2  purely connected with the expropriation and the stolen
      3  watches and the remanufacture of the fountain pens and
      4  everything else that has been stolen from the victims of
      5  what they called the Holocaust. So the Operation
      6  Reinhard, it has a far stronger element of the
      7  expropriation than of the liquidation, if I can put it
      8  that way.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I ask you because sometimes we seem to be
    10  proceeding without, as it were, starting with the general
    11  proposition. Do you accept that Operation Reinhard,
    12  whoever it was called after, did have an aspect to it
    13  which involved the wholesale killing of Jews by whatever
    14  means?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Operation Reinhard was a subsection of the Holocaust which
    16  was partly the deportation element, partly the killing
    17  element, whatever it happened, it had the for the SS the
    18  pleasant side effect, the large numbers of fountain pens,
    19  watches, gold, gold rings, jewellery and so on, came into
    20  their hands which were then processed in a ruthlessly
    21  methodical manner by the technicians of Operation
    22  Reinhard.
    23  Now, in the way that these things happen, it may
    24  happen, it may have come about that people will then
    25  regard Operation Reinhard as being the whole rather than
    26  as being part of the whole, if I can put like that.
    .           P-125

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: So the answer to my question is, yes, that was an
      2  operation and it did have the wholesale killing of
      3  Jews —-
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: It was an element.

    Section details 126.5-141.18

      5  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — as part of its objective?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It was a part of the whole, my Lord, which possibly later
      7  on may then have become regarded as the whole.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right. Sorry, Mr Rampton, just to get the
      9  general position.
    10  MR RAMPTON  No, your Lordship, as so often, and I do not say
    11  this in any sycophantic way, just bad luck on me, has
    12  asked a question that I am about to ask and it has several
    13  times and, in a sense —-
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry.
    15  MR RAMPTON  — I am grateful, no, because —-
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It saves your voice.
    17  MR RAMPTON  — for (1) it has the reassuring effect that one
    18  knows the judge is up to speed with the case.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It happens occasionally.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, please do not hesitate to ask it again
    21  yourself and you will probably get the same answer.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I will ask you a much, much simpler question, not that
    23  his Lordship’s question was in the very slightest bit
    24  complicated. Do you accept or do you not accept because
    25  if you do we can go on to something else, Mr Irving, that
    26  hundreds upon thousands of Jews were from, let us say, the
    .           P-126

      1  spring of 1942 and in Chelmno earlier and probably Belzec,
      2  deliberately killed in Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I think, on the balance of probabilities, the answer is
      4  yes. But I have to say on the balance of probabilities
      5  because the evidentiary basis for that statement is
      6  extremely weak, even now, 55 years later. The Russians
      7  captured the camps, they captured the documentation of
      8  many of these camps, and we are still short of the actual
      9  smoking gun, shall I say.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We are also short of factory buildings and such like, are
    11  we not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: What kind of factory buildings?
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, Sobibor, let us take them north to south, Treblinka,
    14  Sobibor and Belzec were not factory or work camps, were
    15  they, whatever they were?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: My understand and, once again, I have to keep on
    17  emphasising I am not an expert on the Holocaust and I do
    18  not intend to become one for the purposes of this trial.
    19  My understanding is that those camps also had a transit
    20  camps aspect, that people would arrive there and they
    21  would be shipped elsewhere.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Where?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: For example, from Mydonek — from Treblinka they were
    24  shipped to Mydonek, for example. There is a —-
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Maybe somewhere?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon?
    .           P-127

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Maybe somewhere.
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: 60,000.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Very late on, I recollect, is that right?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: May 1943, my Lord, the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto,
      5  according to the standard work by the Soviet historian,
      6  Grossmann, published very early in the war, they had the
      7  access to the records in Mydonek. They traced 60,000 Jews
      8  from the Warsaw ghetto who had been sent to Treblinka and
      9  then sent off to Mydonek. This kind of thing happened and
    10  one wonders how often where we do not have the records of
    11  it.
    12  But I have to state that I am not an expert on
    13  this, and I am willing to go along with any hypothesis
    14  that Mr Rampton can —-
    15  MR RAMPTON  No, not an hypothesis. I want to know what you
    16  accept and what you do not accept. If you accept, on a
    17  balance of probabilities, that Operation Reinhard, whether
    18  it had other aspects to it or not, was a killing operation
    19  in the course of which hundreds of thousands of Jews were
    20  deliberately killed by the Nazis, we can close this
    21  chapter and go on to something else.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: No, I do not accept that. I say the that Operation
    23  Reinhard was frequently something very definitely only a
    24  sub-operation. It was the looting part, the looting
    25  element, and the recycling element, which is where the
    26  name originally came from.
    .           P-128

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am getting terribly confused. I sometimes feel that
      2  either I am not asking the right question or —-
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: This is partially the reason for the secrecy that was
      4  attached to the people operating in it. They were
      5  required to sign these forms saying they had not seen the
      6  looting going on and the stealing going on.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am confused. I had asked you a couple of minutes ago
      8  whether you accepted, on the balance of probabilities,
      9  that in Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec whether you accepted
    10  that hundreds of thousands of Jews were deliberately
    11  killed by the Nazis and I thought you said yes.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but then you tried to say this was Operation Reinhard
    13  and that I do not go along with.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does the label matter in the end, really?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think so.
    16  MR RAMPTON  No, of course it does not. One sees a document
    17  saying whatever it is, 100,000, it does not matter what it
    18  is, and then one sees a document saying “greater secrecy”
    19  and then one has the concession from the witness, that is
    20  the end of that story, so it seems to me?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is not a concession, Mr Rampton. It is a simple
    22  statement of fact on the balance of the evidence, balance
    23  of possibilities.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Does it matter what the means of killing were?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, apparently it does because apparently we are going
    26  to waste a lot of our time over the coming weeks looking
    .           P-129

      1  at certain buildings.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can I read something that you said — you can look at it
      3  in a moment — on 21st May 1989 in a letter to somebody
      4  called Zitelmann?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Dr Reine Zitelmann, a West German historian, yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You wrote this: “As for what did unquestionably happen to
      7  the Jews, the CSDIC report, of which I also enclose a
      8  copy, shows with reliability beyond question the manner in
      9  which the killings occurred, that is to say, shooting”?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: That is, of course, the Bruns Report which I have just
    11  sent to yet another historian.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly. “Random, haphazard, criminal in nature,
    13  occurring without Hitler’s knowledge and immediately
    14  forbidden by him when he learned of them but going
    15  unpunished by him too.”
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I still stand by that statement today.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So, although it was hundreds of thousands of people that
    18  were killed in these three small villages in Eastern
    19  Poland, it was wholly random; is that right?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: If it had been systematic to the degree that you are
    21  hoping to establish, industrialised, shall we say, it
    22  would have been done by far more ruthlessly efficient
    23  means with all that efficiency we come to associate with
    24  the German name.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That means we will have to look at some of the documents.
    26  I had hoped to avoid that.
    .           P-130

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But so that we are clear what the issue
      2  actually really is that we are trying to resolve, it is
      3  not so much the numbers — I think you said you do not
      4  like playing the numbers game — it is whether it was
      5  systematic in the sense of having been organized from
      6  Berlin and, perhaps, a higher level of Hitler?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, in view of the fact that the court proposes to
      8  attach significance to the word “systematic”, I shall have
      9  to resist the suggestion that what happened in those camps
    10  was systematic, and I am sure that Mr Rampton is aware
    11  that on occasion even the SS headquarters sent out
    12  travelling judges who established that unauthorised
    13  killings had been going on and, in fact, on one or two
    14  occasions the camp commandants were hanged before their
    15  prisoners.
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: You are quite right to pick up the word “systematic”. We
    17  have been using it, I think, Mr Rampton, have we not, to
    18  mean policy and policy adopted, laid down at a high level?
    19  MR RAMPTON  Yes, I do and I draw the — inference is too weak
    20  a word — conclusions about system from both ends of the
    21  documentation.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But that is the issue. We need not bother
    23  about numbers, it seems to me, in the light of what
    24  Mr Irving has said.
    25  MR RAMPTON  Nor, I guess, about “deliberate” either?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Deliberate?
    .           P-131

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Deliberate killing”?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Have we had an argument about “deliberate” yet?
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Murder?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: You would need to then specify who is deliberating.
      5  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a …
      6  MR RAMPTON  Intentional killing.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  By whoever it was, the killing was not —-
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: It certainly was not accidental.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  — not accidental.
    10  MR RAMPTON  But the people who did it were criminals who were
    11  acting in a random, haphazard way; is that right?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. At whatever level. I mean, you could equally well
    13  say that the middle level SS officers, the SS officials,
    14  who were acting in a random and haphazard way.
    15  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, the reference to this document which, if
    16  Mr Irving does not trust me, he should have is file D8(i),
    17  page 222.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what you have just read out.
    19  MR RAMPTON  Yes, but I am going to read another bit, an
    20  earlier bit?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Which document is that, the Hofle document?
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is your letter to Zitelmann.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Zitelmann, I am familiar with that. I was looking at it a
    24  few days ago.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: OK. Well then it is not necessary.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: May I just pause at that point and say, my Lord, you
    .           P-132

      1  remember that I said that I sent the Bruns’ document to a
      2  very large number of historians. That is exactly the way
      3  I would work. I would send documents like that and later
      4  on the Aumeir document as well.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am going to read the paragraph above the one I just
      6  read?
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whereabouts in 8(ii)?
      8  MR RAMPTON  I am sorry, 8(i), my Lord, 222. Am I waiting for
      9  something, Mr Irving?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I am ready, yes.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The third paragraph of the letter reads as follows. This
    12  is May 21, 1989, so it may be your views have changed
    13  since then, I know not. “On the… (reading to the
    14  words)… my own view has crystallized a lot since 1975
    15  when I delivered Hitler’s War to the publishers. It is
    16  clear to me that no serious historian can now believe that
    17  Auschwitz”, which is for some reason underlined?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a link, it is a hyperlink.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I follow you, yes. “… Treblinka, Mydonek, were totas
    20  fabriken”?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: “Factories of death”.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Factories of death, precisely. “All the expert and
    23  scientific (forensic) evidence is to the contrary.” We
    24  are going to have an argument about Auschwitz. We can
    25  agree that Auschwitz did not start out as a totas fabrike,
    26  or whatever the singular is. Mydonek, I can agree, was
    .           P-133

      1  only partly used for that purpose, but you have just
      2  agreed with me that, so far as you know, Treblinka did not
      3  serve any other purpose or am I wrong?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: I did not say that.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Right. What purpose did it serve?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: You asked if it was true that large numbers of people and
      7  you said hundreds of thousands —-
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I said hundreds of thousands.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: — were killed at these places to which I agreed that
    10  they were killed at those places, which included
    11  Treblinka, but this does not mean to say that Treblinka
    12  was a factory of death existing solely for that purpose.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I see. Something special about the word “factory of
    14  death”, is there?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it is. It is a quantum leap, if I can put it like
    16  that.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does it mean?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: A factory of death is a purpose built ad hoc establishment
    19  for killing the people who arrive. That is the way
    20  I understand — maybe I am wrong. Maybe you interpret it
    21  somewhat differently.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, it is your word. It is not my word.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Because I just pointed out the 60,000 Warsaw Jews who
    24  arrived there from the Warsaw Ghetto in May 1943 were then
    25  sent from Treblinka to Mydonek. So, clearly, it was not a
    26  factory of death. It had other purposes too.
    .           P-134

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, a transit camp for some small number of people?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Later on, shortly after which I believe it was closed
      4  down, was it not?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: That I do not know.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is, no doubt, why they were moved on to Mydonek, is
      7  it not? It was the nearest place.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. I do not know if you have any evidence for
      9  that.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We have a map.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not talking about the proximity. I am talking about
    12  the —-
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Do not worry about it.
    14  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We need not trouble with Mydonek, need we?
    15  MR RAMPTON  Well, it was a place at which large numbers of
    16  Jews were killed. There was a gas chamber there — this
    17  is our evidence — which has been reconstructed since the
    18  war, but it was also —-
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: In other words, faked since the war.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It was also in some sense a work camp?
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not a pleading point, but I think it is
    22  not one of the camps that you actually specifically rely
    23  on.
    24  MR RAMPTON  No, it is not. This is just for information. It
    25  was liberated, I think, in late ’44.
    26  THE WITNESS: [Mr Irving]: September 1944.
    .           P-135

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was the first to be liberated, was it not?
      2  MR RAMPTON  Yes, it was, by the Russians. This is, as I say,
      3  what the experts will tell your Lordship, I think. It was
      4  such a shock in Berlin that everything was stopped.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: The Russians, of course, captured the entire camp records.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      7  MR RAMPTON  Yes. Well, then, Mr Irving, you have accepted
      8  that an awful lot of people were killed in these little
      9  places on the borders. You do not know one way or the
    10  other whether there were any remains there, do you?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Were there any?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Remains there of buildings?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not been to see it.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have not?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I think that there is relatively little. You can go to
    16  these places and search in vain for any kind of
    17  foundations or anything. I am sure there were buildings
    18  of some kind there, but I think the Polish people
    19  descended on them like locusts after the war looking for
    20  anything they could reuse.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have not been there. Have you read about whether
    22  there are remains of factories or large barbed wire
    23  encampments with huts for workers and that kind of thing?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: What, still there or whether they were there?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, still there. Have you been to Auschwitz?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
    .           P-136

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Have you seen photographs of Auschwitz?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Now, that has a lot of remains, has it not, comparatively
      4  speaking?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Quite a high percentage of remains still left there.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Even in that part which is alleged to have been the —-
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Are we talking about Auschwitz or Birkenhau?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I call the whole thing in the usual way Auschwitz,
      9  but let us talk about —-
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Let us be more precise.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — have you been to Birkenhau?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I have not been to either camp.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Have you seen photographs of Birkenhau?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There are in Birkenhau quite lot of ruins and huts and
    16  bits and pieces, are there not?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And the remains of the IG Faven(?) factory are still
    19  there, are they not, outside the camp?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: At Monovitz, yes.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, Monovitz. Is there anything like that, so far as you
    22  know, at Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not informed one way or the other on that.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The short point is this, Mr Irving, you have no evidence
    25  to contradict the probability that these camps, these
    26  three, I call them Reinhard camps (and I do not want to
    .           P-137

      1  have an argument about that) were purpose-built
      2  extermination facilities?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I have no evidence to contradict the probability. It is a
      4  very fair statement.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that right?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a very fair statement, yes.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does that mean that you do now resile from
      8  the view you expressed in your letter?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: No, my Lord. I am just confirming the way he put the
    10  statement. I have no evidence to contradict his statement
    11  because I have no evidence, period.
    12  MR RAMPTON  Then will you accept it is a probability then?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: No. That is a different thing entirely. I do not want to
    14  sound as though I am a bit of an eel on this but…
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: My word entirely, Mr Irving!
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not want to sound slippery; I just do not want to be
    17  nailed down in one corner where later on you will hold it
    18  up dripping and slithering next day and say, “Look what
    19  you said yesterday”.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But, you see, you said to Dr Zitelmann that
    21  it was clear to you that no serious historian can now
    22  believe that Treblinka and some other camps were “totas
    23  fabriken”.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Quite. They were purpose-built factories of death; in
    25  other words, had no other purpose than that.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Oh, I see.
    .           P-138

      1  MR RAMPTON  But you told me — I am sorry about this; this is
      2  getting a bit like a fourth form debating society, I fear
      3  — a moment ago you said to me that you had no evidence
      4  to contradict the probability that these were
      5  purpose-built extermination facilities.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, because I have no evidence, period.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but you write in this letter: “All the experts in
      8  scientific forensic evidence is to the contrary”?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So what is that scientific and forensic evidence and
    11  expert evidence to the contrary?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Do you wish now already to get into the cyanide tests and
    13  that kind of thing?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I am talking about Treblinka.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What is the expert and scientific (forensic) evidence that
    17  contradicts the probability that Treblinka was a
    18  purpose-built extermination facility?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am now looking at a letter which I wrote 11 years
    20  ago. I would have to try to put myself back into the
    21  mindset at that time when I wrote that letter, and try to
    22  recall the actual documents I had been pouring over and
    23  the air photographs and the interrogation reports and
    24  things like that, if I was to explain why I wrote that
    25  particular sentence.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Were you extrapolating from Auschwitz?
    .           P-139

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: I was extrapolating backwards from Auschwitz, if I can put
      2  it like that, but certainly tests were also carried out
      3  equally on at least one of those other two locations, the
      4  same kind of forensic tests. We also had material of the
      5  kind I mentioned, like air photos and prisoner of war
      6  reports and things like that, but it is not the kind of
      7  evidence that puts me in a position to say, “I can,
      8  therefore, challenge the probability or whatever it was
      9  that Mr Rampton was saying”.
    10  MR RAMPTON  But how could you extrapolate from Auschwitz,
    11  Mr Irving? It has never been proposed by anybody, so far
    12  as I know, that the Nazis used hydrogen cyanide anywhere
    13  outside Auschwitz to kill people with, has it?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, exactly. This is what I find so puzzling. We were
    15  told that this is part of system by learned counsel and
    16  yet, apparently, they used cyanide here, petrol gas there,
    17  diesel fumes there, bullets in yet another place,
    18  bulldozers, hangings, shootings — it appears to have been
    19  a totally ramshackle and haphazard operation. A total
    20  lack of system.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Would you please answer my question, Mr Irving? You said
    22  you extrapolated the conclusion that there was expert and
    23  scientific evidence that Treblinka was not a totas
    24  fabrike. You extrapolated that from Auschwitz?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I very foolishly used the word suggested by his Lordship,
    26  “extrapolated”. Perhaps I should have — without
    .           P-140

      1  realising that the word was going to be seized upon by
      2  counsel.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is what I am paid for, Mr Irving. I am sorry if you
      4  say things —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — you readily accept a suggestion from the Judge and
      7  make it part of your evidence and it seems to me to be
      8  idiotic, then I am going to seize on it, am I not?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think his Lordship suggested an idiotic word but
    10  in this particular case —-
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, the process would be idiotic, though, would it not, to
    12  extrapolate a denial about Treblinka from the evidence
    13  about Auschwitz, would it not?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: No, the extrapolation there would be to say that if
    15  Auschwitz was not a killing station, a dedicated factory
    16  of death, then, on the balance of probabilities, it is
    17  likely that these two were not dedicated factories of
    18  death either.

    Section details 141.19-147.4

    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why? Auschwitz started out as a huge grandiose scheme by
    20  Himmler, did it not, to provide a sort of fife for the SS
    21  in central or south Poland at which there would be vast
    22  factories and brilliant agricultural lands and experiments
    23  of that kind, without any thought of killing anybody at
    24  all except through hard work?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: You are giving evidence on my part.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is right, is it no?
    .           P-141

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: That is absolutely right and I wish you were my counsel at
      2  this moment.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is how Auschwitz started out. Its origins were quite
      4  different from those of the three so-called Reinhardt
      5  camps?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It now squares up to the chronology, Mr Rampton. We are
      7  told by your experts that Auschwitz had become a dedicated
      8  killing station by the end of 1941 or early 1942 at the
      9  latest, and yet apparently the also had found it necessary
    10  to establish other places to do killings too.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, I am sorry —-
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: So that is what I mean by extrapolating. If you have a
    13  super mass production factory here, then why do you build
    14  these villages elsewhere?
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you read Professor van Pelt’s report with any care you
    16  would know that that was complete nonsense, that the
    17  evolution of Auschwitz into a dedicated killing facility,
    18  in fact not Auschwitz, Birkenhau, really began at the end
    19  of 1942. There were some gassings by the use of a cellar
    20  at Auschwitz, one, and by, two, converted farm houses
    21  during 1942?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: But of there was a course huge rate of mortality at
    23  Auschwitz in the middle of 1942.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We will get on to Auschwitz next week, but do not
    25  misrepresent what Professor van Pelt has said, unless you
    26  are sure of your ground, because it is not what he said.
    .           P-142

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: You have brought up Auschwitz now and you are talking
      2  about dates and months, and when I try to pin you down on
      3  the huge mortality rate in the middle of 1942 you are
      4  saying let us talk about that next week.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: There was a typhus epidemic at Auschwitz in 1942.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: So we are saying now that all the deaths in 1942 were from
      7  typhus?
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Mr Irving, surely you can do better than that?
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: You just said it, Mr Rampton.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I said there was a huge typhus epidemic in 1942?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: The killings did not start until the end of 1942.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I did not say that. At the same time people were being
    13  gassed in what are known as bunkers one and two, and that
    14  the conversion of the two planned crematoria at Birkenhau
    15  into gas chambers took place in the late part of 1942 at
    16  the planning stage, and that they came into operation in
    17  early 1943?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: With the cyanide being dropped in through the roof,
    19  right?
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have to compartmentalize to an extent. We
    21  are not on that topic yet.
    22  MR RAMPTON  No, we are not.
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: I think Mr Rampton made some useful concessions.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it is actually party my fault. I
    25  think I rater reintroduced Auschwitz. We are back on the
    26  systematic nature of the killings by whatever means, is
    .           P-143

      1  that really the broad heading for the topic we are on?
      2  MR RAMPTON  This is right. I am not sure where we have got in
      3  relation to Treblinka, my Lord, and the other two
      4  Reinhardt camps, except this. There has been an
      5  acceptance by Mr Irving that hundreds of thousands of Jews
      6  were intentionally killed in those three places, but not
      7  as the consequence of any policy or system, I think, and
      8  that he is not satisfied that that was their dedicated
      9  purpose.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Speaking for myself, one does not really need
    11  to spend terribly much time now on what exactly was going
    12  on in any of those places. The point seems now to be how
    13  did it come about, was it local murderers?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: I think the way Mr Rampton summed it up is a very fair
    15  summary of my position.
    16  MR RAMPTON  There is also, of course, an issue about the
    17  method of killing, but that may in due course turn out to
    18  be less significant.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In relation to those camps I think it might.
    20  MR RAMPTON  Indeed. As to system —-
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: It is only of relevance when it goes to the expertise of
    22  the people who considered this whole matter, if they
    23  willing accept that kind of story, if I can put it like
    24  that.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I agree with that. So, my Lord, what I propose is to look
    26  at just some very few documents for two purposes. What
    .           P-144

      1  I am going to do is to look at just some very documents
      2  for two purposes: one to show the scale of the thing and
      3  the other to show the sort of level at which it was being
      4  discussed. So I am not going to look at a lot of what
      5  Mr Irving calls “janitorial” documents, and I hope that
      6  most of what I am going to look at is going to be common
      7  ground.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So far as the scale of the operation is
      9  concerned, it may be that that can be, as it were,
    10  disposed of as an issue by some very general questions.
    11  I do not know.
    12  MR RAMPTON  Well, I expect so, but if one looks at, for
    13  example — I would rather do it chronologically, if I am
    14  allowed, I think.
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was just that if the door is an open one,
    16  then there is no point in pushing against it too hard.
    17  MR RAMPTON  I agree. Do you agree, Mr Irving, you have
    18  written something of it in your own book, that daily
    19  trains full of Jews, thousands of Jews, from about 22nd
    20  July were going eastwards from Walsall, Radom, and
    21  eventually Lublin. There is another place too, I cannot
    22  remember, to these three places from about 22nd July?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: This is the correspondence between Wolff and Ganzenmuller.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is Wolff and Ganzenmuller?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, the Minister of Transport.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You do accept that?
    .           P-145

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Large numbers, yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We will look at what the position was in —-
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: They are going via Malinka to Treblinka I think.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, all that, in enormous numbers. If you think about
      5  it, 5,000 Jews a day is 35,000 Jews a week?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: That would be five train loads.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. What?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: That would have been five train loads per day.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Exactly. I am comfortable without having just a quick
    10  look at the document.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: It might be useful just to have a look at the documents to
    12  see what the security classification was.
    13  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I must say I rather agree. We will look at two documents,
    14  if you do not mind. Ganzenmuller to Wolff on 29th July
    15  1942, it is either 28th or 29th, anyhow I need a copy of
    16  it.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is it H4(ii)?
    18  MR RAMPTON  It might be.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: The originals were in my discovery of course.
    20  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we not operate off Professor Browning’s.
    21  MR RAMPTON  I do not know where that is.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 45.
    23  MR RAMPTON  There is no copy, that is the trouble.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We can do it off the report, can we not?
    25  Page 45.
    26  MR RAMPTON  I am sorry, my Lord, where did your Lordship say?
    .           P-146

      1  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 45. I think that is probably all you
      2  really need. I cannot believe the context is going to
      3  make much difference.
      4  MR RAMPTON  No, the context probably is not.
      5  “Since July 22nd one train with 5,000 Jews
      6  departs daily via Malinka to Treblinka. Moreover, twice
      7  per week a train with 5,000 Jews departs”, a Polish word
      8  for Belzec. So that is, is it not, 35,000 a week from,
      9  I think that is actually from Walsall?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, my only little quibble is with the figures. I accept
    11  the documents are completely authentic, but you could not
    12  get 5,000 people into one train, not even with a shoe
    13  horn.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I agree. That is why I think the figure is exaggerated.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: There is a little bit of bragging going on here.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, probably.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: The normal figure is about 1,000 people per train and this
    18  is, certainly at this time, I mean later on in 1944 when
    19  they used more brutal methods I think they packed them
    20  into more unorthodox transport.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Perhaps, Mr Irving, we do better to look at a summary
    22  which was made in Berlin at the end of September 1942, and
    23  you may agree these figures are more reliable. It is page
    24  47, my Lord, of Professor Browning and it is note 121,
    25  which is H3(ii), tab 13 I am told. I apologise to your
    26  Lordship for that slight delay, but when the files are
    .           P-147

      1  open I cannot tell what they are. It is first document
      2  behind tab 13.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      4  MR RAMPTON  We looked at this once before I think, Mr Irving.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: We have to at the moment take it from Professor Browning
      7  that it is what he says it is.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He says it is a conference in Berlin on 26th and 28th
    10  September 1992. What his basis for that saying is I do
    11  not know. He will tell us no doubt when he gets here.
    12  Assuming that to be right, it is telling us that there was
    13  discussed, one, the evacuation of 600,000 Jews from the
    14  General Government?
    15  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of the General Government.
    16  MR RAMPTON  I am sorry, my Lord, yes, of the General
    17  Government. Then item two is the forwarding of 200,000
    18  Romanian Jews into the General Government.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I can see item one, the 600,000 going.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “Die Verschieckung”.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Paragraph 2?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Am I looking at the Browning or at a document?
    23  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No, I am sorry, you should be looking at a document.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Right. Which is where.
    25  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would do a bit of housekeeping if I were
    26  you, Mr Irving.
    .           P-148

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Where do I find it in H3(ii)?
      2  MR RAMPTON  You will find it behind tab 13.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Under tab 13?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, OK, I have it.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You have that and I expect you recognize it?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: I have never seen it before. It is pages 149 and 150 of
      8  some, it looks like a court document of some kind.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I do not know.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Highly unsatisfactory of course to have a document
    11  presented in this form in a court transcript.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If you dispute its reliability or its authenticity you can
    13  take it up with Professor Browning when he gets here.
    14  I have asked you to bear that in mind.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: It is just a comment I make that it is unsatisfactory to
    16  have a document presented in this form.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Of course, but this is not an historical enquiry,
    18  Mr Irving. You brought this action against my clients
    19  asking for damages and an injunction. So we have to do
    20  the best we can with what we have before us. Can I just
    21  ask you —-
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, you have a very large staff of experts and
    23  experts’ assistants and assistants to those assistants
    24  behind you in this very courtroom. I am acting on this
    25  action by myself.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, Mr Irving. Just assume for the sake of argument,
    .           P-149

      1  will you, that this is both authentic and possibly, I do
      2  not know, reliable?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It speaks of the evacuation of 600,000 Jews of the General
      5  Government?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It speaks also of the forwarding into the General
      8  Government the 200,000 Romanian Jews, does it not, the
      9  second paragraph?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it is in words, yes, “von zweihunderttausend Juden
    11  Rumaniens”.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is the first heading I am interested in under point one
    13  or as to point one, urgent transports, I cannot read the
    14  next word, can you help me with that?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Proposed, “polkishen”.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does it mean?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Urgent transport proposed by the Chief of Security Police
    18  and by the Security Service.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is that —-
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Heydrich.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — Heydrich?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: No, at this time it would be Carleton Brunner. Heydrich
    23  was killed.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: How high up is that?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Directly under Himmler.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Directly under Himmler. What he has ordered are —-
    .           P-150

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Two trains per day from the district of Walsall to
      2  Treblinka; one train per day from the district of Random
      3  to Treblinka; one train per day from the district of
      4  Krakow to Belzec, and one train per day from the district
      5  of Lemberg or the Wolff to Belzec.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That makes a total, I think I am right, of 5,000 a day?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That would be approximately 5,000.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you for me, please, just complete the sentence because
      9  it was not, after Lemberg and then the numbers there is
    10  some more, is there not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: “Could be conducted”.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: That is in the subjunctive. “Waren” with the 200 G-wagen,
    14  which are presumably goods trucks, “which have already
    15  been placed at our disposal for this purpose by the
    16  headquarters of the Krakow Railways, as far as this can be
    17  carried out or is feasible”.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Thank you very much. So they are reporting, what, a
    19  proposal or an event or series of events?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: It is an estimate of what we can do with the transport
    21  capacity placed at our disposal.
    22  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Available rolling stock, they can do 5,000 a day to two of
    23  these three places in the East, except that the one train
    24  a day from Lemberg which, as you say, is what I call
    25  “Lavof” which is in what is now the Ukraine and then was
    26  Galicia, is going eastwards if it is going to Belzec, is
    .           P-151

      1  it not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: One train a day is going from Lemberg to Belzec that is on
      3  the frontier, yes.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is going eastwards. It is crossing —-
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — from Galicia westwards into the General Government?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: It is right on the Eastern border of the General
      8  Government, about two kilometres from the edge.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So the Jews of Lemberg, to give it its German name, are
    10  being transported eastwards to Belzec?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: To Belzec two kilometres from the border, yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. No sense then in which Belzec can be regarded as a
    13  transit camp, is there, for movement further eastwards?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: These destinations that are in this document which I am
    15  seeing for the first time, Treblinka, Belzec, they are all
    16  on the border, what I might say the exit door, of the
    17  General Government.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: It is like standing something next to the door where they
    20  are robbed. Everything is taken off them by Operation
    21  Reinhardt. Then we do not know, on the basis of this
    22  document, what happened to them after that.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Trains converge on Belzec containing Jews in vast numbers,
    24  frankly, from East and West. Belzec most likely,
    25  Mr Irving, is in any sense of the word a terminus, is it
    26  not?
    .           P-152

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Did you say they are coming from East and West?
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes. If you look down what is proposed next, the line is
      3  bust at the moment, they are going to start up in
      4  November, then trains are going to go from Lublin to
      5  Belzec?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Where is that?
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sorry, read the next bit then.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: After the restoration of the railway line from Lublin to
      9  Chelm.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Probably on about 1st November.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: “The” other urgent transports will also be, we can also
    14  carry out the other urgent transports, namely one train
    15  per day from Radom to Sobibor; one train per day from
    16  Lublin.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Lublin North.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: Lublin North to Belzec and one train per day from Lublin
    19  centre to Sobibor.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So once that is in operation, which is in about a month’s
    21  time, five weeks time, Belzec will be receiving Jews both
    22  from the West?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: From Lublin.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: From Lublin and from the East, Lavof?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Lemberg?
    .           P-153

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sorry about this, Mr Irving, but sometimes junior
      3  counsel and experts produce aid in a case like this.
      4  H1(ix) I think you may already have, unless his Lordship’s
      5  advice about housekeeping has been rigorously obeyed. My
      6  Lord, H1(ix), page 329.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, it is one of the relevant documents. It is still
      9  only a transcript, but it is it is more useful.
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What tab is it?
    11  MR RAMPTON  329, my Lord. You will find the translations, my
    12  Lord, at pages 429 to 30 of Evans.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: If your Lordship has the document, I draw attention only
    14  to the security classification which is “Geheim” on page
    15  329.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where do I get what the security
    17  classification is?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: On about the tenth line, G-E-H-E-I-M.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is secret?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It is just the lowest security classification there
    21  is, apart from “vertraulich” which is confidential,
    22  whereas everything to do with the killing operations, at
    23  any rate anything that could be explicitly recognized as
    24  killing operations, was a much higher classification.
    25  I shall be making that point once or twice.
    26  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But against that this is not in a sense a compromising
    .           P-154

      1  document on its face. It is simply saying these trains
      2  are going to Treblinka?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: I agree, my Lord, but taken in conjunction with the other
      4  document in this pair where Wolff writes back saying, you
      5  remember, “It’s a good thing that 5,000, a chosen few, per
      6  day are going that way.” I do not know if the reply is
      7  also there, is it? Here is Wolff replying in the next
      8  one.
      9  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: He is W, is he?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, he is W. “Dear Comrade, Ganzenmuller”, and again this
    11  document has no classification at all. This is from my
    12  own files, my Lord. This is actually from Himmler’s
    13  papers and it has no classification rating at all. If you
    14  look at the square box, the rubber stamp at the top
    15  right-hand corner, my Lord, you will have see on that
    16  little bundle I have gave you this morning, I had printed
    17  in red there was one such little bundle translated into
    18  English and that had the security classification on it.
    19  The third line of that box where it says “actung nummer”
    20  which would be file number, would have afterwards G-E-H
    21  oblique stroke, and then they would write in handwriting
    22  the secret file number, if this was a classified
    23  document. So neither of these two correspondents,
    24  Ganzenmuller or Wolff, considered this matter they were
    25  talking about to be secret, and I shall be leading
    26  evidence, my Lord, that the SS were very pernickety about
    .           P-155

      1  security classifications on their documents.
      2  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: But there is nothing compromising, as I say, on the face
      3  of either of these documents. It is just trans going to
      4  Treblinka?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Even documents that were written as euphemisms had the
      6  security classification put on them which was rather
      7  self-defeating.
      8  MR RAMPTON  I am puzzled by that. I am puzzled for two
      9  reasons, Mr Irving. The first document is not an
    10  original, I think. It is a Nuremberg reprint, is it not?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: It is a transcript, yes.
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But that does not tell us anything about what its original
    13  classification might be?
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: It does, if you excuse me, it has the German
    15  classification on it.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Which is?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: About the tenth, Geheim, G-E-H-E-I-M, in the centre.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What does that mean?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Secret.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Oh, secret?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But that is a low security classification,
    23  that is what Mr Irving has just said.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: The only one lower than that was “vertraulich” which means
    25  confidential. Before that there are three or four
    26  successive ranks. You have Geheimreichs,
    .           P-156

      1  Geheimschetaffe(?) and (?)offizier which means only an
      2  officer can carry it.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Very learned, Mr Irving, and it is quite right you should
      4  say it.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Are you sneering at my expertise?
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I am not sneering at your expertise. Actually I am
      7  complaining about the way you keep making speeches in
      8  answer to questions I have not asked, if you want to
      9  know.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I think his Lordship has indicated in the view of the fact
    11  that I am a litigant in person I am allowed a little bit
    12  of latitude in making points which I would otherwise have
    13  no opportunity to make.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, but may I suggest if you are going to do that, to
    15  which I have no objection whatsoever, you make your
    16  observations to his Lordship and not to me. We are not
    17  having an argument. You are answering questions under
    18  oath. Now I am trying to find the translation of this
    19  document. Yes, I have found it. My Lord, it is the
    20  bottom of paragraph 4 of page 430 of Evans, but I dare say
    21  there are other versions.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 430 of?
    23  MR RAMPTON  Of Evans, my Lord.
    24  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.

    Section details 157.25-172.23

    25  MR RAMPTON  This is from Ganzenmuller whose precise position
    26  is what?
    .           P-157

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Secretary of State, Staff Secretare, which is the
      2  Permanent Under Secretary in the Ministry of Transport.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In Berlin?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: In Berlin.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Is he a senior Civil Servant?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: A very senior Civil Servant.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: A very senior Civil Servant. He writes to Wolff?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: Karl Wolff was the personal adjutant of Heydrich Himmler.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, and it was Karl Wolff who was quite often, am
    10  I wrong, tell me if I am, as it were, seconded by Himmler
    11  to Hitler, is that right, or have I got that wrong?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: It was a floating kind of relationship. Karl Wolff was
    13  very close to Hitler. He fell out over a marital dispute
    14  I think, a matrimonial dispute, but actually his position
    15  was Chief Adjutant of Heydrich Himmler. He was never on
    16  Hitler’s staff. He was on Himmler’s staff.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. What I am driving at is obvious I think, Mr Irving.
    18  Karl Wolff was in a position if Adolf Hitler should say to
    19  him one day, say late August or September or July 1942,,
    20  “How is it going in the East?”, Wolff is in a position to
    21  tell him?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Undoubtedly, yes. He would have told him about these
    23  train loads of Jews being shipped off to Treblinka.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You can imagine the conversation. This is pure fancy on
    25  my part of course. “Karl, how is it going in the East?
    26  Well, we’ve good news from Ganzenmuller that they’re able
    .           P-158

      1  to shift about 35,000 of the chosen people a week to these
      2  camps in the East.” That is all, as simple as that.
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. Hitler of course never used deprecatory phrases like
      4  “the chosen people”.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. He used nice complimentary phrases like “parasites”
      6  and “bacilli”, did he not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That is right. But of course this is just your
      8  imagination which has no evidentiary value whatsoever in
      9  this action.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, of course not, but Wolff was in a position, what I am
    11  saying is Wolff was close to Hitler, close to the thrown,
    12  was he not?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: He was close to Himmler’s thrown. He was on Himmler’s
    14  personal staff.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: And Hitler’s too. You just old us he was close to Hitler?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I made it quite specific. He was on Himmler’s staff, not
    17  on Hitler’s staff, but he was a frequent visitor to
    18  Hitler’s headquarters.
    19  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can you look at this letter and tell us what it says,
    20  please. It says something about a telephone call on 16th
    21  July, does it not?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Which letter are we talking about?
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This one from Ganzenmuller to Wolff.
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: “Referring to our telephone conversation of July 16th 1942
    25  I inform you of the following report from my general
    26  direction of the Eastern Railroads in Krakow for your own
    .           P-159

      1  personal information.”
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Then he quotes the report, does he?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: Then he quotes the report: “Since July 27th a daily train
      4  load of 5,000 Jews, each is travelling from Walsall via
      5  Malkenia to Treblinka, in addition to which two are
      6  running each week, a train of 5,000 Jews will run each
      7  week from Eprzemysl to Belzec.”
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Do you wish me to continue?
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, I do not. I am just wondering whether I was right to
    11  agree with you that 5,000 per train was too many.
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: If they were in goods trucks, as that September document
    13  indicates they have been planning, then they may possibly
    14  have packed that many in.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Have you still got Professor Brownings’ report there?
    16  This is inevitable, I am afraid, in a case like this.
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Page 430, is it?
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, page 44 of Professor Browning.
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: I am constantly marvelling at your cross-referencing.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It breaks down all too often. Page 44, paragraph 5.3.11,
    21  I will read it. We will look at the documents if you
    22  insist, but I do not believe it is necessary:
    23  “The trains deporting Jews from Galicia”. What
    24  is the matter?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I have it, 44. Yes.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: 5.3.11, MR IRVING:
    .           P-160

      1  “The trains deporting the Jews from Galicia did
      2  indeed go to Belzec as can be seen in the report of
      3  Reserve Lieutenant Westermann of the 7th company of Police
      4  Regiment 24, whose men helped round up the Jews in
      5  Kolomyja”, which is, I can tell, you southeast of Lavof,
      6  in other words further East than Lemberg, “and nearby
      7  towns and then guarded two transports to Belzec on
      8  September 7th and 10th 1942. The first contained 4,769
      9  Jews in 50 train cars and went without incident. The
    10  second involved 8,205 Jews. Many had been held for days
    11  without food and force-marched 35-50 kilometers to the
    12  train in blistering heat. They were then packed into
    13  train cars, in many cases 180 to 200 per car, virtually
    14  without ventilation. As Lieutenant Westermann concluded,
    15  ‘The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due to
    16  the great heat, overloading of the train cars and stink of
    17  the dead when unloading the train cars, some 2,000 Jews
    18  were found dead in the train made the transport almost
    19  unworkable.’ Nevertheless, the train that left Kolomyja at
    20  8.50 p.m. on September 10th finally crawled into Belzec at
    21  6.45 on September 11th”.
    22  So these figures quoted by Ganzenmuller’s
    23  subordinate of 5,000 Jews per train —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: They are feasible, yes, on the basis of this evidence.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Are feasible?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    .           P-161

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If that were so, we are talking about even greater
      2  numbers, are we not?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: In what respect greater numbers?
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, greater numbers than I had originally supposed.
      5  I mean we are originally talking about by the end of the
      6  1943 or whenever it was that these camps were disbanded,
      7  well over a million people I would guess.
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: May I just remark for the record that of course this
      9  Westermann document I have not seen and never had when
    10  I was writing my books.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but in a way that is not a particular
    12  pertinent observation, because we are really at the moment
    13  looking at the scale of the operation.
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, you did suggest that I should make that quite
    15  plain.
    16  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Fair enough and it is helpful for you to do so, but the
    17  criticism is not of the way in which you have dealt with
    18  these matters in your books, if you follow me?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: We are just trying to get the picture.
    20  MR RAMPTON  Can you turn, while we have it open, to page 46 of
    21  Professor Browning’s report, please?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    23  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I had pointed out to you that trains apparently went, we
    24  saw it again there, westwards from Galicia to Belzec, and
    25  then you see at the top of page 46 of Professor Browning’s
    26  report: “Surviving fragmentary train schedules also show
    .           P-162

      1  that Jews were deported from northern Lublin district,
      2  Radom district, and the Bialystok district to Treblinka as
      3  well. The deportations from Bialystok, a district East of
      4  Treblinka, are of special significance for two reasons.
      5  First, these deportations from Bialystok make clear that
      6  Treblinka was not a transit camp for the expulsion of Jews
      7  eastwards from the General Government. Rather the tiny
      8  village of Treblinka, like Belzec, was a point at which
      9  transports of Jews converged from East and West.
    10  “Moreover, the fate of the Bialystok Jews in
    11  the fall of 1942 was clearly stated in Himmler’s report to
    12  Hitler of December 31st 1942″, that is either that or
    13  29th, it is report No. 51, “the Jews of Bialystok were
    14  among the 363,211 Jews executed.”
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: There I would have to comment of course that that line
    16  I would not agree there is any connection, because the
    17  363,000, that report, the Himmler report, is referring
    18  only to events within that region and not events within
    19  the General Government.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You mean that is Jews killed at or near Bialystok and its
    21  area, not Jews transported?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: Transported somewhere else out of the region and dealt
    23  with somewhere else.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: You might be right about that. You can take that up with
    25  Professor Browning.
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. It is nit-picking.
    .           P-163

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No. It may be a fair point and you can take it up with
      2  him. It matters not the least to me. The point about
      3  this is, we have another example, have we not, of Jews
      4  being transported from the East to the West?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: To a different camp, Treblinka, the one in the North?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Where we do not know for certain what happens to them.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but these do not look very much like transit camps, do
      9  they?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not know. Let us just leap ahead a bit and say
    11  suppose these enormous numbers of Jews had been liquidated
    12  in some way, we come up against that familiar word
    13  “logistics”, what happened to the remains?
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, I suppose what happened to the remains, upwards of
    15  whatever I do not know —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: We have to think this right through, you see.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is partly a question of evidence and it is partly a
    18  question of constructive thinking. It could be that many
    19  of them were burnt, the corpses I mean. There is some
    20  evidence of that, is there not? It may be that many of
    21  them were buried. There is also some evidence of that
    22  too, is there not, I mean contemporary evidence?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, that is as much as we can say.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I agree.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I take that kind of answer, that is as much as we can say,
    26  one stage further back in the sequence to say, this is as
    .           P-164

      1  much as we can say: They went there where they then
      2  vanished from our general sight.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought we had reached the point where we
      4  were agreed that it does not really, in a sense, matter
      5  terribly much exactly how many, but huge numbers —-
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: Huge numbers were killed.
      7  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: — were killed in one way or another. In a sense, the
      8  Court’s problem is only a problem if you are disputing the
      9  numbers.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Precisely, my Lord. The logistical problem is one that we
    11  will keep on coming up against. It is a distasteful
    12  subject but one you cannot overlook.
    13  MR RAMPTON  Just for completeness and for his Lordship’s note,
    14  in effect so his Lordship really knows where to find it,
    15  if you turn over the page two pages from Ganzenmuller —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, if I could just interrupt, it is one reason why
    17  I was entitled to extrapolate, if you remember, from
    18  Auschwitz to the other two camps, and we have precisely
    19  those logistical reasons which make it improbable that
    20  they were factories of death.
    21  MR RAMPTON  Your Lordship will see Wolff’s nauseating reply,
    22  if I can call it that —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Which he never expected one day to have read out in open
    24  court, I am sure.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, but then he would have been a hypocrite if he had
    26  edited it, would he not? On page 331 at the bottom of the
    .           P-165

      1  Evans’ document bundle, this is not a retype by the
      2  Nuremberg people, I think, is it, Mr Irving?
      3  A. [Mr Irving]: No.
      4  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is a copy of some sort of original, whether a carbon
      5  or not I do not know.
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: It is off the microfilm number T175/54, page 620.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  331 of Evans?
      8  MR RAMPTON  331, my Lord, no of H1(ix).
      9  A. [Mr Irving]: Can I make a remark against myself?
    10  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes. I am sure Mr Rampton will not want
    11  to —-
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: Looking back at that rubber stamp, my Lord, on that
    13  document where there is no secret classification, it has
    14  in its place the two letters AR.
    15  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: It also has the letters AR on the top left-hand corner at
    17  the beginning of the handwritten reference number.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What does that mean?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: “Aktion Reinhardt” I would suspect. I would suspect, it
    20  is a degree of probability that this was given a separate
    21  file for Aktion Reinhardt.
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But not Geheim?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: But not Geheim. It is a reasonable presumption, although
    24  it may be held against me.
    25  MR RAMPTON  Tell me this. I think that is an English word.
    26  You see the bottom of 331?
    .           P-166

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: The bottom left-hand corner in a box somebody has
      3  written “index”. That would be people at Nuremberg?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: No, it would be me.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is you?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: All documents that passed through my possession when I was
      7  writing the Hitler book went into a 20,000 card index, and
      8  once it had been indexed I would rubber stamp the index so
      9  that I did not index it again.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I see. The reference to “the chosen people” is in the
    11  fifth line, is it not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: “For your letter of July 28th 1942 I thank you, also in
    13  the name of the Reichsfuhrer SS, most heartfelt. With
    14  particular joy I have taken cognisance of your information
    15  that for 14 days now already every day one train with
    16  5,000 members of the chosen people are going to Treblinka,
    17  and that in this way we are being put in the position that
    18  we can accelerate the speed of this population movement.”
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it probably is really more selective
    20  than “chosen”, is it not? Is it not just saying these are
    21  people who have been selected for the transport?
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: My Lord, that is the German for “chosen”.
    23  MR RAMPTON  My Lord, I think it is a sarcastic reference to,
    24  I would guess.
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: It is the correct German for “the chosen people”.
    26  MR RAMPTON  “For the chosen people”. Mr Irving actually put
    .           P-167

      1  it in his book in that form, did you not?
      2  A. [Mr Irving]: As an accurate translation, yes.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Why did it cause him, Mr Irving, why did it cause him,
      4  Wolff, especial joy?
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I am sure that is just a way of dictating letters. Wolff
      6  in particular is an SS Officer.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: “A rabid anti-Semite is very pleased to be told that 5,000
      8  a day are going off to be massacred.” Surely that is the
      9  natural interpretation?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: 57,000 are getting their comeuppance, I suppose that is
    11  the way he is looking at it, as a good Nazi.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  “Comeuppance” meaning?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, just they are meeting their well-deserved fait,
    14  whatever it is. They are not specific.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Death?
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: I beg your pardon.
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Death?
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: He does not actually say it, my Lord.
    19  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: That is what he means?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, I am not going to pin Karl Wolff down on this on
    21  there.
    22  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: No, but you are an historian looking at the document,
    23  Mr Rampton has put a perfectly fair question to you, is he
    24  right?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: I cannot say from this document, my Lord, and I do not
    26  think anybody could just looking at this document
    .           P-168

      1  in vacuo. In hindsight we can say that they were going to
      2  that place, they never turned up again, obviously
      3  something ugly happened to them.
      4  MR RAMPTON  Karl Wolff, who I have to correct you I think
      5  about in a moment, but never mind, Karl Wolff on receipt
      6  of Ganzenmuller’s information is overcome with joy that
      7  these 5,000 a day are going to their deaths, is he not?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: He does not say that, but that may very well be the reason
      9  why. I accept there is the degree of probability. That
    10  may be the reason why.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is my second point. I am told, I am not an
    12  historian, that Wolff was not simply a visitor or even a
    13  frequent visitor to Hitler’s headquarters, but was
    14  Himmler’s liaison officer at Hitler’s headquarters?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: For a time he may have been, but I am not sure whether it
    16  was at this time.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is a fair point. I will accept that.
    18  A. [Mr Irving]: He fell out of favour after contracting an unsuitable
    19  marriage and for a long time he was out of favour.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: But if he is Himmler’s liaison officer at the Fuhrer
    21  headquarters, whether it is in Berlin or in East Prussia,
    22  wherever it might be, his formal role is to pass
    23  information and instructions backwards and forwards —-
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: As a conduit.
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — between Himmler and Hitler, is it not?
    26  A. [Mr Irving]: He would have acted as a conduit between the two.
    .           P-169

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: A conduit pipe. So if Hitler was at all interested in
      2  reports of what was going on in the East, he could expect
      3  to get them for Wolff, could he not?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. This letter is, of course, actually written from the
      5  Fuhrer’s headquarters.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: That is the address at the top.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I quite agree with you. In case you should have missed
      9  the point, it does not say, “and I have brought your glad
    10  tidings to the Fuhrer today at lunch and we all had a
    11  glass of champagne”?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: I think I treated the document responsibly. I gave you
    13  the full text of it or whatever was relevant in my books,
    14  and once again I leave the readers to draw their own
    15  conclusions. I may say that your Lordship and yourself
    16  have also drawn the right conclusions from this document
    17  or the appropriate conclusions.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Could you please turn, Mr Irving, to page 143 of Evans’
    19  report, paragraph 5, no, I had better start actually a bit
    20  earlier. This is all, my Lord, embedded in a discussion
    21  of the suggestion that the gas chambers were an invention
    22  of British propaganda. Mr Irving, I am right, am I not
    23  that, Riegner was some kind of figure in the Jewish
    24  community in the West?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: In Switzerland.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: In Geneva.
    .           P-170

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Or in Bern, one or the other, yes. He was a young man
      2  with contacts inside Nazi Germany.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we, please, start at the top of page 142. It is your
      4  position, is it not, or has been at any rate, that the gas
      5  chambers were a very cleaver piece of propaganda that we
      6  British very cunningly connived at and contrived during
      7  World War II, is that right?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: I do not think I would use child adjectives like “clever
      9  and cunningly connived”.
    10  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Look at the bottom of page 141 of the Evans’ report.
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: There is a great deal of evidence that the British
    12  propaganda agents is propagated in the gas chamber motive,
    13  for example.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This is taken from an interview given by you to This Week
    15  on 28th November 1991.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: In the broadcast of Thomas Mann but I will come to that in
    17  due course. Thomas Mann operated for the British and
    18  American Intelligence Agencies.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Stripping out “clever and cunning” for the
    20  sake of argument, do you contend, Mr Irving, that gas
    21  chambers at Auschwitz were an invention by British
    22  Intelligence during the war?
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: British Intelligence broadcast repeatedly through the BBC
    24  and through other information channels into Nazi Germany
    25  information about gas chambers in occupied Nazi, Nazi
    26  occupied Europe at a time when they were not in
    .           P-171

      1  operation. In other words, the information was premature
      2  information, shall we say.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, premature begs the question rather, does it not?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, in other words the information came forward.
      5  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Are you suggesting it was an invention?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: To degree the it must have been an invention because at
      7  the time the British propaganda was talking of them they
      8  did not exist.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So it was an invention by British propaganda?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: British propaganda invented the story of the gas chambers
    11  or invented stories of gas chambers which were broadcast
    12  into Nazis Germany during the war years. There is any
    13  amount of evidence of this in the BBC monitoring reports,
    14  in the German radio monitoring reports, in the memoirs of
    15  people like Thomas Mann, the famous German novelist, who
    16  worked for British propaganda agencies in their private
    17  diaries and so on.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, well, I am sure it was broadcast; it is a question of
    19  whether it was an invention by the British propaganda
    20  machine?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, if the Allies, as we know from the Foreign Office
    22  files, had no knowledge of any gas chambers, then,
    23  clearly, it was an invention.

    Section details 172.24-187.26

    24  MR RAMPTON  I wonder about that. Can you just look at the
    25  middle of page 143? We may have to come back in due
    26  course to what you said about this, but that is a
    .           P-172

      1  different question. Paragraph 5. Professor Evans has
      2  recited your rather complicated account of this in your
      3  forthcoming Churchill book. Then he says: “What is the
      4  real documentary evidence for this account? Gerhard
      5  Riegner was director of the Geneva Office of the World
      6  Jewish Congress from 1939 until 1945. On 8th August 1942
      7  Riegner handed an identical telegram to Howard Etling,
      8  American Vice-Counsel in Geneva, and to HB Livingston, the
      9  British Consul. Riegner asked that a telegram be conveyed
    10  to the World Jewish Congress leaders in London (Sydney
    11  Silverman, MP) and New York (Rabbi Steven Wise). The
    12  telegram stated:
    13  ‘Received alarming report stating that, in the
    14  Fuhrer’s Headquarters, a plan has been discussed, and is
    15  under consideration, according to which all Jews in
    16  countries occupied or controlled by Germany numbering 3
    17  and-a-half to 4 million, should, after deportation and
    18  concentration in the East, be at one blow exterminated, in
    19  order to resolve, once and for all the Jewish question’.”
    20  Then there is a reference to a document which
    21  I think I can show you in a moment.
    22  Then Professor Evans goes on: “Although the
    23  message the put the as ‘under consideration’, there was an
    24  additional detail: ‘Ways of execution are still being
    25  discussed, including the use of prussic acid’. Riegner
    26  himself said, ‘We transmit this information with all the
    .           P-173

      1  necessary reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed by
      2  us’. But he added, ‘Our informant is reported to have
      3  close connections with the highest German authorities, and
      4  his reports are generally reliable'”.
      5  That should be footnote 90 in this part of
      6  Professor Evans’ report.
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: The actual document is in my discovery, of course — the
      8  Riegner telegrams.
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I am sorry, my Lord. The way that the Evans’ documents
    10  have been indexed makes them rather difficult to find.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we need the original for this purpose?
    12  MR RAMPTON  Well, if it has come from Mr Irving’s
    13  discovery, I think we do not actually because he would be
    14  well familiar with it.
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: I am very familiar indeed with the document and with the
    16  associated minutes by the Foreign Office officials on it.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is an accurate account, is it, in Professor Evans’
    18  report of what the telegram says?
    19  A. [Mr Irving]: Those three lines are accurately transcribed from the
    20  telegram, to the best of my recollection.
    21  Q. [Mr Rampton]: So there are four lines in the body of paragraph 5 and
    22  then there are some further references to things like
    23  prussic acid in paragraph 6?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes, but, of course, the actual telegram is longer than
    25  that.
    26  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes.
    .           P-174

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: We know a great deal also about the origins of the
      2  telegram, whether this informant existed, and so on.
      3  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I can see that it is much longer; I am certainly not going
      4  to bend the court’s ear by reading it out.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: What is significant, of course, is the associated
      6  memoranda on the Foreign Office file, the treating of its
      7  credibility and of what to do with it, and so on.
      8  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Yes, sure, but if this is the source of the information —
      9  call it that, no more — it is hardly an invention of
    10  British propaganda, is it?
    11  A. [Mr Irving]: Which information?
    12  Q. [Mr Rampton]: This information here, in the Evans’ report. If Riegner
    13  is the source of the information —-
    14  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    15  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — then it is not an invention of British propaganda, is
    16  it?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Not at this stage, no, but, of course, there had been
    18  references by British propaganda to alleged hydrogen
    19  and cyanide gas chambers before this August 1942 telegram.
    20  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Let me take it slowly. If Riegner’s information is not
    21  something that he has been put up to by British
    22  propaganda —-
    23  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    24  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — true, you may say, though, I am not going accept it,
    25  that the British propaganda then built on that idea, maybe
    26  you do say that, maybe you do not, I do not know, but the
    .           P-175

      1  fact is that information is an important piece of
      2  evidence, not a huge piece of evidence, an important piece
      3  of evidence, when one comes to consider what I call the
      4  Final Solution and the means by which it was achieved, is
      5  it not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: I am not quite sure what question — are you asking
      7  whether this was the origin of the British, or whether it
      8  was just a —-
      9  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, no.
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: — link in your system chain.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: It is just a link in my chain of documents. It is said
    12  that Riegner had the ear of somebody —-
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: — high up in the Nazi —-
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: And, therefore, the British did not invent the story
    16  because Riegner brought it to them.
    17  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, no. Therefore, it is quite important evidence that
    18  the use of hydrogen cyanide was intended from quite a long
    19  way back as a killing agent for Jews?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: If this is an authentic account by Riegner, but, of
    21  course, if we subsequently find out, as has been
    22  established by people of the calibre of Walter La Coeur,
    23  that Riegner’s source did not exist as a source of
    24  integrity, shall we say, a man who was not in a position
    25  to know what he was talking about, then that tells us
    26  absolutely nothing whatsoever. It is a fluke. But if we
    .           P-176

      1  can just have five or six lines reproduced from one
      2  document here, that is not the way to go about things. We
      3  need to know all the surrounding material and, in
      4  particular, if you want to say this is evidence the
      5  British did not invent because they built the story on
      6  this, then I have to say that British files, Foreign
      7  Office minutes show that it was totally dismissed. They
      8  said, “We cannot believe this. We cannot believe stories
      9  of this type. We have no supporting evidence at all.
    10  There is not a shred of evidence that this story is true”.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is on the original of this Riegner
    12  document?
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: It is in the typical Foreign Office folder with all the
    14  minutes attached to it with what are called treasury ties.
    15  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Is that the document Mr Rampton was looking for a moment
    16  ago?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, it is in my discovery, my Lord, and I can produce it
    18  in court tomorrow as one of these dreaded little bundles.
    19  MR RAMPTON  Well, it is there, my Lord. I really do not
    20  think at this time of the day I would ask your Lordship to
    21  look at it. It is difficult to read. It is bitty and the
    22  essence, for my purposes, is in the Evans’ report anyway.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes?
    24  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, the essence as extracted by Professor Evans, of
    25  course, not the essence which I would extract, but I will
    26  do that under cross-examination, my Lord, when the time
    .           P-177

      1  comes, I think.
      2  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, yes, but, I mean, Mr Rampton will
      3  appreciate, obviously, that your case is that the
      4  annotations on the document show that it was not given any
      5  credence at the time by those who subsequently used it.
      6  That is your point, is it not?
      7  A. [Mr Irving]: Quite, and that should have been drawn out by the experts.
      8  MR RAMPTON  Oh, yes, but an historian, Mr Irving, has the
      9  wonderful benefit of hindsight, does he not?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes. I think I have used that word once or twice myself.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: He can fit a document like that which the poor bods in
    12  London and Washington could not do. He can fit a document
    13  like that into a vast weft or weave, call it what you
    14  will, tapestry, of other information, can he not?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
    16  Q. [Mr Rampton]: That is what, perhaps, gives it more significance now?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: There is a great temptation to do precisely that.
    18  Q. [Mr Rampton]: One must be careful that one does not give more weight to
    19  it than it deserves, but any document must always be
    20  placed in the context of all the rest of the relevant
    21  information.
    22  A. [Mr Irving]: This is quite right, and this is why this particular
    23  document I did investigate in some detail, and I made an
    24  exception. I read what Professor La Coeur (?) had written
    25  about it who carried out an examination of the origins of
    26  the document and the alleged source.
    .           P-178

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Can we go north, please, because I am still engaged on the
      2  same exercise? My Lord, I have finished pre Auschwitz.
      3  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I interrupt you when you say you have
      4  finished pre Auschwitz? I quite understand what the case
      5  is and to a large extent it is accepted on the scale of
      6  the operations.
      7  MR RAMPTON  Yes.
      8  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But I am really talking about the post
      9  shooting phase, one calls it the gassing phase. It is a
    10  bit tendentious but it may not matter in the end. What
    11  I have not at the movement got clear in my mind is how you
    12  put the case that this was known by and authorized by
    13  Hitler.
    14  MR RAMPTON  Authorized by I do not know, the case is not that
    15  there is a piece of paper from Himmler to Hitler, saying
    16  here, Adolf, are the statistics, at least not until we get
    17  to December 1942 and that may concern Einsatzgruppen
    18  shootings rather than gassings in these places. The case
    19  is simply this. The scale of the operation is vast. It
    20  involves what must have been very considerable disruption
    21  to military operations amongst other things. It involves
    22  a lot of economic and manpower resources. It certainly
    23  goes all the way up to Heydrich and Wolf who is Himmler’s
    24  adjutant, seconded as liaison officer at some time at
    25  least to Hitler. In the light of what we do know that
    26  Hitler did know, in the light of all the other information
    .           P-179

      1  we have about Hitler’s anti-Semitism and, as in due course
      2  one will see, as one of the foundations of Nazi ideology,
      3  it would be amazing if Hitler did not know, in broad
      4  terms, I am not saying he was interested in numbers or
      5  anything like that, what was going on. It is as simple as
      6  that.
      7  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is extremely helpful to have you put it
      8  clearly in that way. Thank you very much.
      9  MR RAMPTON  It is an inference which any lawyer, never mind
    10  historian, would be willing to draw, I would suggest, on
    11  the balance of probabilities.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  May I suggest that we just invite Mr Irving,
    13  if he wants to, to comment on that, because that is part
    14  of your case.
    15  MR RAMPTON  It certainly is.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is entitled to have his say.
    17  MR RAMPTON  I would only add this negative sentence, I think.
    18  The fact that there is not a piece of paper, as the denier
    19  said, there is not just a single proof with Adolf’s name
    20  on it, is neither here nor there?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: Well, my Lord, let him fight his own battles. The
    22  proposition that learned counsel has put is entirely
    23  acceptable. It is monstrous to assume that Adolf Hitler
    24  would not have known, and I have said precisely the same,
    25  my Lord. In my books I have said that after October 1943,
    26  which is the kind of watershed time that I put, he had no
    .           P-180

      1  excuse for not knowing, which is as far as I would go. Of
      2  course, it is not a smoking gun. It is not the kind of
      3  balance of probabilities, or even evidence beyond all
      4  reasonable doubt that would be required in a criminal
      5  case. But he had no excuse for not having known because
      6  he then came into very close proximity with a large number
      7  of people who had been briefed in the most nauseating
      8  detail by Himmler himself as to what he was doing. I have
      9  made no secret about that in my books. I would be
    10  interested to hear how learned counsel gets round that
    11  particular problem when the time comes.
    12  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That again is extremely helpful to have you
    13  say that, but can I ask you one question arising out of
    14  it? I quite follow why you take October 1943 as the date
    15  from which you accept Hitler was in the know.
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: Had no excuse not to know.
    17  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Or had no excuse not to know, but what about the period
    18  with I think Mr Rampton has really been dealing with this
    19  afternoon between November/December 1941 and October 1943?
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: We are very ill-advised by the documents that are
    21  available even now. We are ill informed by the documents
    22  that are available even now after 55 years, my Lord, and
    23  this is where you begin having to say that, I forget what
    24  the legal term is, there may be a legal term for it, but
    25  in any case of ambiguity then the balance of doubt has to
    26  be given to the accused rather than to the incriminated.
    .           P-181

      1  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Can that really be right when you have a situation where
      2  Hitler was at any rate not objecting as from October 1943
      3  to what most people would regard as thoroughly abhorrent?
      4  A. [Mr Irving]: Yes.
      5  Q. [Mr Justice Gray]: Can you not infer from that that, assuming the evidence
      6  was available for him, he would not have put up any
      7  objection before October 1943?
      8  A. [Mr Irving]: That is precisely the way that I would be inclined to put
      9  it, my Lord. I have even said on occasion that there is
    10  no evidence that he would have objected even if he had
    11  been told the most brutal detail of what was going on.
    12  But we just do not have that evidence. My literary agent
    13  in America said, “For God’s sake, if you have not got the
    14  evidence, invent it”. I thought my ten years spent in
    15  researching the book were too precious for that.
    16  MR RAMPTON  So it really comes to this, does it, Mr Irving?
    17  If you were sitting on a jury in a criminal court, whereas
    18  I might very easily convict Hitler, you would not, but, if
    19  you are looking for proof positive that he did not know,
    20  you are swimming very hard against the tide, are you not?
    21  A. [Mr Irving]: No. You talk about in a criminal court and in a criminal
    22  court of course the standards of evidence required,
    23  particularly where a man’s life is at stake, are much
    24  sterner than in a civil action. Am I right?
    25  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Never mind civil actions or criminal actions. This is a
    26  rotten analogy, anyway. You are an historian.
    .           P-182

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Mr Rampton, you started the analogy.
      2  Q. [Mr Rampton]: No, you did, with your references to the standard of proof
      3  in a criminal court when you were answering his Lordship.
      4  It is a rotten analogy.
      5  A. [Mr Irving]: I think it is a very useful analogy.
      6  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What are you looking at as an historian is not a question
      7  whether a man is guilty or not of law, whether he is
      8  liable to pay damages. You are looking at the evidence
      9  with an open and objective mind to see what is the degree
    10  of probability that it suggests as to what happened. That
    11  is what are you doing, is it not?
    12  A. [Mr Irving]: This is right, but then at this point different historians
    13  operate in different ways, and it may be that I make
    14  myself culpable by just putting the evidence in the pages
    15  and not joining up the dots and allowing the reader to do
    16  the dot joining for himself. I assume that my readers
    17  have a certain degree of intellectual honesty and ability,
    18  that they are capable of forming their own conclusions
    19  provided I present the evidence to them with as much
    20  integrity as possible. Other historians, like no doubt
    21  some of the experts in this case, like to join up the dots
    22  for you and that is where the mistakes I think creep in.
    23  It is possible that my way of writing history is wrong.
    24  It is possible their way of writing history is right.
    25  They have been taught in universities how to write, I have
    26  not, but this is not Holocaust denial, Mr Rampton.
    .           P-183

      1  Q. [Mr Rampton]: Well, Mr Irving, we will come to that next week, but your
      2  method of writing history, whether one approves of it
      3  academically or not is quite beside the point, is
      4  perfectly all right provided that you do not distort and
      5  manipulate the evidence, is it not?
      6  A. [Mr Irving]: You are absolutely right.
      7  Q. [Mr Rampton]: If we should succeed in proving that that is exactly what
      8  you have done on a number of occasions, then you do not
      9  deserve the name historian, do you?
    10  A. [Mr Irving]: I take you do not consider that you have succeeded so far.
    11  Q. [Mr Rampton]: What privately I should think, Mr Irving, I certainly am
    12  not going to tell you.
    13  A. [Mr Irving]: From the way you couched the question.
    14  Q. [Mr Rampton]: I could be standing here thinking why am I going through
    15  all this, I have already cooked —-
    16  A. [Mr Irving]: You know why you are going through this, and I do. It is
    17  connected with a very substantial fee you are paid for
    18  this.
    19  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is cheap. Let us get on.
    20  MR RAMPTON  It is not only cheap, it is complete rubbish. My
    21  Lord, I would pass now, if I may —-
    22  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we will probably stop now.
    23  MR RAMPTON  I tell you where I am going next. I am going
    24  briefly to Dr Brach in the autumn of 1941, which relates
    25  to gassings in the Warthegau and possibly also in Riga.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that vans?
    .           P-184

      1  MR RAMPTON  Vans yes, and then I am going to go to what
      2  Mr Irving calls the Schlegelberger memorandum, and then
      3  probably to the Roman Jews, unless your Lordship would
      4  prefer, which equally well we can do, to have a look at
      5  Hitler’s earlier utterances.
      6  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. All I think is that sometime that is
      7  relevant.
      8  MR RAMPTON  It is obviously important.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Both to the manipulation and also to
    10  Auschwitz.
    11  MR RAMPTON  Yes. I am thinking that the subject of Hitler’s
    12  Adjutants is a long one with, I am afraid, probably quite
    13  a lot of documents to look at because of the records of
    14  what they said. That may take more than one day, which
    15  I do not have, so I was going to leave that until after
    16  Auschwitz.
    17  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is fine. It does occur to me that
    18  sometimes there is scope for exploring before one gets
    19  into the detail.
    20  MR RAMPTON  I know.
    21  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We had an example just a moment ago. It is
    22  not remotely intended to be a reproof.
    23  MR RAMPTON  It is amazing what answers one can get. I have
    24  made the assumption, perhaps wrongly, that any general
    25  question I ask is either going to get no answer —-
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I can see there may be forensic reasons for
    .           P-185

      1  doing it the other way too, but I just wonder in this case
      2  whether the desirability of short cuts does not suggest
      3  one sacrifices —-
      4  MR RAMPTON  I see the attraction, but I do think it essential,
      5  and the only forensic reason, apart from wanting answers
      6  to my questions, is that I do want your Lordship to have
      7  as full a picture as possible, because all these things
      8  are contextually linked.
      9  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have the reports, remember.
    10  MR RAMPTON  I know.
    11  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What about the argument about Auschwitz? It
    12  seems to me that we are nipping at that topic from time to
    13  time, inevitably. I think in many ways the sooner we have
    14  the argument the better?
    15  A. [Mr Irving]: It is Tuesday now, possibly on Thursday.
    16  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If would you like go for Thursday, yes?
    17  A. [Mr Irving]: If you would limit us both to half an hour each on that.
    18  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am all in favour of doing that.
    19  MR RAMPTON  I have said my two minutes already.
    20  A. [Mr Irving]: You may have more to say after you have heard me.
    21  MR RAMPTON  We will let Mr Irving go first since essentially
    22  I believe it to be an objection really.
    23  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it matters who goes first.
    24  Would you like to go first, Mr Irving?
    25  A. [Mr Irving]: It makes no difference to me either.
    26  MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Good, so 10.30 tomorrow?
    .           P-186

      1  A. [Mr Irving]: Thank you.
      2  span class=”stage”><(The witness stood down)
      3  (The court adjourned until the following day)
    .           P-187