Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 10: Electronic Edition
Pages 204 - 209 of 215
| << 1-6 | < 198-203 | 210-215 > | 209-215 >> |
My Lord, I have read paragraphs 37 to 40 on pages
1about, that is for sure.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not what Mr Irving says, no.
3 MR RAMPTON: No.
4MR IRVING: It will be when I bring the chapter and verse, my
5Lord.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have tracked it down as far as we are
7able. I think we had better move on to the next general
8question, Mr Irving.
9MR IRVING: I think I have come to the end of my general
10questions. I will have a quick look at my cheat sheet.
11Are you familiar with the evidence of Kasmir Smolen?
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Which evidence?
13Q. [Mr Irving] The various statements he has made to the effect that when
14working in the administration of the Auschwitz camp
15deliberate falsification of the records went on?
16A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I find it very difficult to -- deliberate falsification.
17I remember something but I do not really know exactly.
18I would not want to comment right now, because I do not
19know what records we are talking about and what utterance
20by Kasmir Smolen, but again I am happy to comment when I
21have it in front of me.
22Q. [Mr Irving] To your knowledge did prisoners not only arrive at
23Auschwitz but did they also leave Auschwitz?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is one particular group of prisoners who left
25Auschwitz, yes.
26Q. [Mr Irving] But on a regular basis they went on to other camps?
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Certainly that, yes. This is why there are survivors.
2Most of the Jews who survived Auschwitz who were not in
3the final evacuation actually were sent on from Auschwitz
4in 1944, when the decision was withdrawn that no Jews
5could be in the Reich so that they could work in
6concentration camps attached to factories in the Reich.
7This is one of the reasons, and I have explained that in
8our book in some detail, why Hungarian Jews were parked in
9Auschwitz. They arrived in Auschwitz. They survived the
10selection but were not numbered, were not actually
11admitted officially to the camp, and they were there for
12sometime before they were sent on to concentration camps
13in the Reich.
14Q. [Mr Irving] But would I be right in saying that to a certain degree
15Auschwitz was in fact a transit camp?
16A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] During the Hungarian action it took one of its many
17functions. It took on the function of a transit camp, but
18it only applied to a relatively small number of the total
19people who ever arrived there.
20Q. [Mr Irving] The Hungarian action involved how many people originally?
21How many people were deported from Hungary to Auschwitz?
22A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] About 450,000.
23Q. [Mr Irving] 450,000?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. That is a German figure.
25Q. [Mr Irving] What actually happened to those 450,000? Were they all
26gassed in some way or did some get sent somewhere else?
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. All these people, not even all the Hungarian Jews
2arrived in Auschwitz, the large majority, the great
3majority of them came to Auschwitz, I think the number of
4Hungarian Jews deported is even larger, but at Auschwitz
5we are talking about that number. These people were
6submitted to selection on arrival in Auschwitz. Then
7there were really three possibilities at that moment that
8could happen. Either one could be selected to die in the
9gas chambers or one could be selected to be admitted to
10the camp and given a number. There was a new numbering
11system created at the time to accommodate this and became
12a regular inmate of the camp or one of the satellite camps
13in Auschwitz. Or one could become durkhanstudent where
14one was housed temporarily in the camp without actually
15being officially admitted to the camp before being sent on
16to other concentration camps.
17Q. [Mr Irving] Where large numbers of these Hungarian Jews put to work in
18Germany?
19A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The question is difficult to determine that, because there
20are different numbers of how many durkhanstudent there
21were, and this is in some way a point which certainly
22I would like to have seen, you know, more clearly
23established. One of the debates about the mortality
24during the Hungarian action of course ultimately has to
25relate, because when we know more or less how many
26Hungarian Jews were admitted to the camp and there are
1only two ways to explain what happened, only two ways one
2can explain what happened to the people who were not
3admitted to the camp, either they were killed or they were
4sent to the West. So the issue of the mortality of the
5Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz ultimately is tied up to the
6number of durkhanstudent there were, and the Auschwitz
7camp, the numbers I remember of around 25,000 as to the
8number of durkhanstudent who went from Auschwitz to the
9West.
10Q. [Mr Irving] How many remained in the camp and were liquidated, in your
11opinion?
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I do not really want to give an opinion right now. I mean
13I am happy again to look at the figures. It seems to be
14that in May and June very high percentages of these
15transports were selected for death, but we are talking
16about hundreds of thousands of people who were killed in
17Auschwitz in the month of May and June.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Let us just for two minutes talk about Sturmlager,
19Auschwitz one?
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
21Q. [Mr Irving] Which is now the big tourist centre, is it not?
22A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is where the reception building is where the film was
23shown and where there are exhibitions, yes.
24Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. They have a building there which they describe as
25the gas chambers and they show it to tourists as a gas
26chamber, is that right?
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a crematorium there and in the crematorium is a
2room which is described as a gas chamber.
3Q. [Mr Irving] There is a big chimney behind the building?
4A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Which is not connected in any way whatsoever to the
6crematorium?
7A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The chimney there which is right next to it is a
8reconstruction of the original chimney which was in
9exactly the same position which was connected like the
10chimney in crematoria two and three by underground flue to
11the crematorium building. This is a way to increase the
12draft of the chimney by leading the gas at basement level.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure what the point of these
14questions is.
15MR IRVING: It is very brief, my Lord. The prisoner reception
16centre at Auschwitz one is where now the tourists arrive,
17am I right?
18A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is where the cafeteria is.
19Q. [Mr Irving] I have never been there, so I take your word for it. They
20are then taken into a building and at the end of the tour,
21"This is the gas chamber". They are invited to believe
22that this is the gas chamber, is that right?
23A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] One is not taken into building. One can either visit the
24building yes or no.
25Q. [Mr Irving] But they invited to believe hat this was the gas chamber?
26A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a sign which says "crematorium and gas chamber".
1Q. [Mr Irving] Was that building that is described as tourists as a gas
2chamber ever used as a gas chamber?
3A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, it was used as a gas chamber.
4Q. [Mr Irving] This is not what you wrote in your book?
5A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is exactly what I wrote. I have a very long
6description in my book about the use of that space, and
7the space is not exactly the same as in the war. I have a
8very long quotation. A number of different places.
9Q. [Mr Irving] The space is what?
10A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At the moment the space is one bay bigger than it was
11during of war. I have extensive descriptions in my book
12of the transformation of that space into a gas chamber and
13of the use of that space into a gas chamber.
14Q. [Mr Irving] If you go there as a tourist now and you ask the guides,
15they will admit to you that this was never used as a gas
16chamber, is that, is that right?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really worthless, is it not.
18MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is worthless as a point.
20MR IRVING: The guides would know, my Lord.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: They might or they might not. I should think
22probably they were born 30 years after these events.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I will on Friday confront this witness, if
24I may, with what he wrote in his original book on
25precisely the building we are talking about, where he said
26in terms that this building is a fake.
1about, that is for sure.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not what Mr Irving says, no.
3 MR RAMPTON: No.
4MR IRVING: It will be when I bring the chapter and verse, my
5Lord.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have tracked it down as far as we are
7able. I think we had better move on to the next general
8question, Mr Irving.
9MR IRVING: I think I have come to the end of my general
10questions. I will have a quick look at my cheat sheet.
11Are you familiar with the evidence of Kasmir Smolen?
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Which evidence?
13Q. [Mr Irving] The various statements he has made to the effect that when
14working in the administration of the Auschwitz camp
15deliberate falsification of the records went on?
16A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I find it very difficult to -- deliberate falsification.
17I remember something but I do not really know exactly.
18I would not want to comment right now, because I do not
19know what records we are talking about and what utterance
20by Kasmir Smolen, but again I am happy to comment when I
21have it in front of me.
22Q. [Mr Irving] To your knowledge did prisoners not only arrive at
23Auschwitz but did they also leave Auschwitz?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is one particular group of prisoners who left
25Auschwitz, yes.
26Q. [Mr Irving] But on a regular basis they went on to other camps?
. P-204
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Certainly that, yes. This is why there are survivors.
2Most of the Jews who survived Auschwitz who were not in
3the final evacuation actually were sent on from Auschwitz
4in 1944, when the decision was withdrawn that no Jews
5could be in the Reich so that they could work in
6concentration camps attached to factories in the Reich.
7This is one of the reasons, and I have explained that in
8our book in some detail, why Hungarian Jews were parked in
9Auschwitz. They arrived in Auschwitz. They survived the
10selection but were not numbered, were not actually
11admitted officially to the camp, and they were there for
12sometime before they were sent on to concentration camps
13in the Reich.
14Q. [Mr Irving] But would I be right in saying that to a certain degree
15Auschwitz was in fact a transit camp?
16A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] During the Hungarian action it took one of its many
17functions. It took on the function of a transit camp, but
18it only applied to a relatively small number of the total
19people who ever arrived there.
20Q. [Mr Irving] The Hungarian action involved how many people originally?
21How many people were deported from Hungary to Auschwitz?
22A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] About 450,000.
23Q. [Mr Irving] 450,000?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes. That is a German figure.
25Q. [Mr Irving] What actually happened to those 450,000? Were they all
26gassed in some way or did some get sent somewhere else?
. P-205
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No. All these people, not even all the Hungarian Jews
2arrived in Auschwitz, the large majority, the great
3majority of them came to Auschwitz, I think the number of
4Hungarian Jews deported is even larger, but at Auschwitz
5we are talking about that number. These people were
6submitted to selection on arrival in Auschwitz. Then
7there were really three possibilities at that moment that
8could happen. Either one could be selected to die in the
9gas chambers or one could be selected to be admitted to
10the camp and given a number. There was a new numbering
11system created at the time to accommodate this and became
12a regular inmate of the camp or one of the satellite camps
13in Auschwitz. Or one could become durkhanstudent where
14one was housed temporarily in the camp without actually
15being officially admitted to the camp before being sent on
16to other concentration camps.
17Q. [Mr Irving] Where large numbers of these Hungarian Jews put to work in
18Germany?
19A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The question is difficult to determine that, because there
20are different numbers of how many durkhanstudent there
21were, and this is in some way a point which certainly
22I would like to have seen, you know, more clearly
23established. One of the debates about the mortality
24during the Hungarian action of course ultimately has to
25relate, because when we know more or less how many
26Hungarian Jews were admitted to the camp and there are
. P-206
1only two ways to explain what happened, only two ways one
2can explain what happened to the people who were not
3admitted to the camp, either they were killed or they were
4sent to the West. So the issue of the mortality of the
5Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz ultimately is tied up to the
6number of durkhanstudent there were, and the Auschwitz
7camp, the numbers I remember of around 25,000 as to the
8number of durkhanstudent who went from Auschwitz to the
9West.
10Q. [Mr Irving] How many remained in the camp and were liquidated, in your
11opinion?
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I do not really want to give an opinion right now. I mean
13I am happy again to look at the figures. It seems to be
14that in May and June very high percentages of these
15transports were selected for death, but we are talking
16about hundreds of thousands of people who were killed in
17Auschwitz in the month of May and June.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Let us just for two minutes talk about Sturmlager,
19Auschwitz one?
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
21Q. [Mr Irving] Which is now the big tourist centre, is it not?
22A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is where the reception building is where the film was
23shown and where there are exhibitions, yes.
24Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. They have a building there which they describe as
25the gas chambers and they show it to tourists as a gas
26chamber, is that right?
. P-207
1A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a crematorium there and in the crematorium is a
2room which is described as a gas chamber.
3Q. [Mr Irving] There is a big chimney behind the building?
4A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Which is not connected in any way whatsoever to the
6crematorium?
7A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] The chimney there which is right next to it is a
8reconstruction of the original chimney which was in
9exactly the same position which was connected like the
10chimney in crematoria two and three by underground flue to
11the crematorium building. This is a way to increase the
12draft of the chimney by leading the gas at basement level.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure what the point of these
14questions is.
15MR IRVING: It is very brief, my Lord. The prisoner reception
16centre at Auschwitz one is where now the tourists arrive,
17am I right?
18A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is where the cafeteria is.
19Q. [Mr Irving] I have never been there, so I take your word for it. They
20are then taken into a building and at the end of the tour,
21"This is the gas chamber". They are invited to believe
22that this is the gas chamber, is that right?
23A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] One is not taken into building. One can either visit the
24building yes or no.
25Q. [Mr Irving] But they invited to believe hat this was the gas chamber?
26A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a sign which says "crematorium and gas chamber".
. P-208
1Q. [Mr Irving] Was that building that is described as tourists as a gas
2chamber ever used as a gas chamber?
3A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, it was used as a gas chamber.
4Q. [Mr Irving] This is not what you wrote in your book?
5A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That is exactly what I wrote. I have a very long
6description in my book about the use of that space, and
7the space is not exactly the same as in the war. I have a
8very long quotation. A number of different places.
9Q. [Mr Irving] The space is what?
10A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] At the moment the space is one bay bigger than it was
11during of war. I have extensive descriptions in my book
12of the transformation of that space into a gas chamber and
13of the use of that space into a gas chamber.
14Q. [Mr Irving] If you go there as a tourist now and you ask the guides,
15they will admit to you that this was never used as a gas
16chamber, is that, is that right?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is really worthless, is it not.
18MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is worthless as a point.
20MR IRVING: The guides would know, my Lord.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: They might or they might not. I should think
22probably they were born 30 years after these events.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I will on Friday confront this witness, if
24I may, with what he wrote in his original book on
25precisely the building we are talking about, where he said
26in terms that this building is a fake.
. P-209
| << 1-6 | < 198-203 | 210-215 > | 209-215 >> |