Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition
Pages 7 - 12 of 187
| << 1-6 | 13-18 > | 181-187 >> |
Except to have a quick glance at pages 8 and 9
1was being bombarded with meldungen. This is a much more
2routine one which relates to Operation Hamburg, as it was
3called, an anti-partisan sweep resulting in 6,000 enemy
4dead, and a certain amount of equipment taken, and so on.
5I am not going to rely particularly on that, just to show
6that these meldungen cannot be taken in vacuo.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not Hitler vorgelegt, is it, as it
8happens?
9MR IRVING: I believe it is, my Lord. If you look at my page
108, you can see "vorgelegt 25 December PF".
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.
12MR IRVING: SS Hauptstungfuhrer Fuhrer, who was Hitler's
13personal adjutant, who happened to have an SS rank. That
14is quite important, my Lord, because we now come to the
15page 10 which I think is going to blow their December 28th
16document, not out of water but it is going to cripple it.
17To a certain degree, my Lord, I myself am crippled
18because, as your Lordship knows, I donated my entire
19archives to the German Institute of History many years ago
20with a rather sad result that I alone in this room am not
21allowed to see them.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you say that again?
23MR IRVING: I donated my entire archives of research which I
24had collected for Adolf Hitler ----
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow, yes. Now you are banned from going
26into that museum?
1MR IRVING: I am banned from going into Germany. I cannot set
2foot in that museum and I cannot see my own archives,
3whereas Professor Evans, as I understand it, has had teams
4of researchers clawing over these files, where they would
5undoubtedly have found these very documents to which I am
6now going to refer.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you take me through them if you rely on
8them?
9MR IRVING: On the following page you will see the photocopies
10of index cards which is all that remains in my collection,
11the index cards relating to these documents. I have
12translated the index cards into English on page 10. The
13first item is 28th December 1942, a report coming from --
14the other way round this time -- Hitler's adjutant to
15Himmler. The only significance of that is that that is
16feed back. That is an indication that that document to
17which this document, this card, this reply refers was
18clearly shown to Hitler, because there was feed back
19coming back from Hitler's adjutant saying, "Well, Hitler
20wants to know how many of our own troops are being killed
21in these operations".
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Report No. 49 would be two reports before
23No. 51.
24MR IRVING: Yes. It is not the one that is significant in this
25case, my Lord. I am just saying that it is a pity we do
26not have a similar kind of feed back on the crucial one.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: This rather suggests that Hitler was paying
2attention to what was being laid before him.
3MR IRVING: I disagree, my Lord. Look at the next card down.
4We now have December 30th 1942, which is another report by
5Himmler to Hitler, signed by Muller this time, the Chief
6of Gestapo. It is dated December 29th, exactly the same
7day as the incriminating one.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, you have lost me.
9MR IRVING: This is the second card down on page 10, my Lord.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, December 29th.
11MR IRVING: The reason it is dated December 30th is because my
12card index is organized according to the date that
13something was allegedly shown to Hitler, not the date of
14the document. It is a telegram from Muller, the Chief of
15the Gestapo, back to Himmler on combating the high level
16achievement in Serbia, and it has been sent by Himmler to
17Hitler to have a look at. It is in the big Fuhrer
18typeface, and you will notice, my Lord, that on this
19occasion Fiefer has endorsed the document twice, laid
20before December 30th, laid before December 31st. In other
21words, twice he has put it on Hitler's breakfast tray
22outside his door. He is not looking at it. Is this not,
23my Lord, precisely the point I made yesterday, that Hitler
24had other things on his plate? He was fighting the battle
25of Stalingrad. He had a quarter of a million men trapped
26in Stalingrad. He was waiting for it to break through.
1He had the battle crews out in the Arctic. He had all
2these things going on. Here is Himmler's message lying
3outside his breakfast room door twice, and the adjutant
4putting a note on it, saying he has twice put it out
5there, twice he has laid it before him. He would not have
6had to do it twice if it was read the first time, my
7Lord,.
8 I suggest this casts serious doubt on the
9proposition that we can accept that the other document was
10necessarily shown to Hitler. I would not put it any
11stronger than that.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just let us keep an eye on the reality. You
13did accept yesterday, as I understand it, that the
14shooting of Jews and others on the Eastern Front was a
15programme which was systematic and co-ordinated by Berlin,
16and Hitler was aware and approved of what was going on.
17MR IRVING: The shootings of Russian Jews, my Lord, yes.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So, in a sense the issue whether a
19document was laid before Hitler and read by him becomes
20relatively speaking insignificant, in this context.
21MR IRVING: I disagree, with respect. I think that this shows
22how flaky the whole system was. What Mr Rampton would
23like to describe as being a cast iron, watertight
24bureaucratic system with reports going this way and
25messages coming back, it breaks down at the very top level
26when you are dealing with a man, the head of state
1himself, who has other things on his plate. I would
2suggest that there is a very strong reason to suspect that
3this is precisely the reason why Himmler slid that figure
4in, because he apprehended quite likely that the boss was
5not going to read it.
6 That may possibly be going too far to impute
7that to him, but certainly this indication that on this
8very day documents were being put to Hitler twice and not
9being read can indicate that that 29th December document
10cannot, therefore, necessarily have been taken as having
11been read and submitted no doubt to Adolf Hitler or taken
12cognisance of it. That is the only point I want to make,
13my Lord.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Is that it?
15MR IRVING: That is it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you like to go back into the witness
17box?
18MR RAMPTON: Can I say two things before that happens? We
19would very much like to see the German version of the
20Kovno train message, if it exists, if Mr Irving has it?
21That was page 6 of the first of these.
22MR IRVING: My Lord, it was actually mailed to the instructing
23solicitors, about three weeks ago.
24MR RAMPTON: What, the German?
25MR IRVING: In a bundle.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: The German version of what? Did you say page
16?
2MR RAMPTON: Page 5 I meant.
3MR IRVING: I will certainly supply it again.
4MR RAMPTON: That would be very kind. If we have had it and it
5has not got to me, that is entirely our fault.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still puzzled. Page 5 is in German.
7MR RAMPTON: Oh, 5?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said 6 and then I thought you said 5.
9MR RAMPTON: I did say 5.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is in German.
11MR RAMPTON: I say no, I am looking at a different document
12with "05" at the bottom.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you not looking at the clip?
14MR RAMPTON: No, to this previous one.
15MR IRVING: The little bundle probably.
16MR RAMPTON: Does your Lordship remember the train load of
17Berlin Jews to Kovno?
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do.
19MR RAMPTON: J3.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am putting this latest clip into the back
21of J. I know Miss Rogers is keeping track.
22MR RAMPTON: Tab 5, my Lord.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have something in tab 5 already anyway.
24They are all going in there.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Mr Rampton. You are back on
26what?
1was being bombarded with meldungen. This is a much more
2routine one which relates to Operation Hamburg, as it was
3called, an anti-partisan sweep resulting in 6,000 enemy
4dead, and a certain amount of equipment taken, and so on.
5I am not going to rely particularly on that, just to show
6that these meldungen cannot be taken in vacuo.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not Hitler vorgelegt, is it, as it
8happens?
9MR IRVING: I believe it is, my Lord. If you look at my page
108, you can see "vorgelegt 25 December PF".
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.
12MR IRVING: SS Hauptstungfuhrer Fuhrer, who was Hitler's
13personal adjutant, who happened to have an SS rank. That
14is quite important, my Lord, because we now come to the
15page 10 which I think is going to blow their December 28th
16document, not out of water but it is going to cripple it.
17To a certain degree, my Lord, I myself am crippled
18because, as your Lordship knows, I donated my entire
19archives to the German Institute of History many years ago
20with a rather sad result that I alone in this room am not
21allowed to see them.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you say that again?
23MR IRVING: I donated my entire archives of research which I
24had collected for Adolf Hitler ----
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow, yes. Now you are banned from going
26into that museum?
. P-7
1MR IRVING: I am banned from going into Germany. I cannot set
2foot in that museum and I cannot see my own archives,
3whereas Professor Evans, as I understand it, has had teams
4of researchers clawing over these files, where they would
5undoubtedly have found these very documents to which I am
6now going to refer.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you take me through them if you rely on
8them?
9MR IRVING: On the following page you will see the photocopies
10of index cards which is all that remains in my collection,
11the index cards relating to these documents. I have
12translated the index cards into English on page 10. The
13first item is 28th December 1942, a report coming from --
14the other way round this time -- Hitler's adjutant to
15Himmler. The only significance of that is that that is
16feed back. That is an indication that that document to
17which this document, this card, this reply refers was
18clearly shown to Hitler, because there was feed back
19coming back from Hitler's adjutant saying, "Well, Hitler
20wants to know how many of our own troops are being killed
21in these operations".
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Report No. 49 would be two reports before
23No. 51.
24MR IRVING: Yes. It is not the one that is significant in this
25case, my Lord. I am just saying that it is a pity we do
26not have a similar kind of feed back on the crucial one.
. P-8
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: This rather suggests that Hitler was paying
2attention to what was being laid before him.
3MR IRVING: I disagree, my Lord. Look at the next card down.
4We now have December 30th 1942, which is another report by
5Himmler to Hitler, signed by Muller this time, the Chief
6of Gestapo. It is dated December 29th, exactly the same
7day as the incriminating one.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, you have lost me.
9MR IRVING: This is the second card down on page 10, my Lord.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, December 29th.
11MR IRVING: The reason it is dated December 30th is because my
12card index is organized according to the date that
13something was allegedly shown to Hitler, not the date of
14the document. It is a telegram from Muller, the Chief of
15the Gestapo, back to Himmler on combating the high level
16achievement in Serbia, and it has been sent by Himmler to
17Hitler to have a look at. It is in the big Fuhrer
18typeface, and you will notice, my Lord, that on this
19occasion Fiefer has endorsed the document twice, laid
20before December 30th, laid before December 31st. In other
21words, twice he has put it on Hitler's breakfast tray
22outside his door. He is not looking at it. Is this not,
23my Lord, precisely the point I made yesterday, that Hitler
24had other things on his plate? He was fighting the battle
25of Stalingrad. He had a quarter of a million men trapped
26in Stalingrad. He was waiting for it to break through.
. P-9
1He had the battle crews out in the Arctic. He had all
2these things going on. Here is Himmler's message lying
3outside his breakfast room door twice, and the adjutant
4putting a note on it, saying he has twice put it out
5there, twice he has laid it before him. He would not have
6had to do it twice if it was read the first time, my
7Lord,.
8 I suggest this casts serious doubt on the
9proposition that we can accept that the other document was
10necessarily shown to Hitler. I would not put it any
11stronger than that.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just let us keep an eye on the reality. You
13did accept yesterday, as I understand it, that the
14shooting of Jews and others on the Eastern Front was a
15programme which was systematic and co-ordinated by Berlin,
16and Hitler was aware and approved of what was going on.
17MR IRVING: The shootings of Russian Jews, my Lord, yes.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So, in a sense the issue whether a
19document was laid before Hitler and read by him becomes
20relatively speaking insignificant, in this context.
21MR IRVING: I disagree, with respect. I think that this shows
22how flaky the whole system was. What Mr Rampton would
23like to describe as being a cast iron, watertight
24bureaucratic system with reports going this way and
25messages coming back, it breaks down at the very top level
26when you are dealing with a man, the head of state
. P-10
1himself, who has other things on his plate. I would
2suggest that there is a very strong reason to suspect that
3this is precisely the reason why Himmler slid that figure
4in, because he apprehended quite likely that the boss was
5not going to read it.
6 That may possibly be going too far to impute
7that to him, but certainly this indication that on this
8very day documents were being put to Hitler twice and not
9being read can indicate that that 29th December document
10cannot, therefore, necessarily have been taken as having
11been read and submitted no doubt to Adolf Hitler or taken
12cognisance of it. That is the only point I want to make,
13my Lord.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Is that it?
15MR IRVING: That is it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you like to go back into the witness
17box?
18MR RAMPTON: Can I say two things before that happens? We
19would very much like to see the German version of the
20Kovno train message, if it exists, if Mr Irving has it?
21That was page 6 of the first of these.
22MR IRVING: My Lord, it was actually mailed to the instructing
23solicitors, about three weeks ago.
24MR RAMPTON: What, the German?
25MR IRVING: In a bundle.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: The German version of what? Did you say page
. P-11
16?
2MR RAMPTON: Page 5 I meant.
3MR IRVING: I will certainly supply it again.
4MR RAMPTON: That would be very kind. If we have had it and it
5has not got to me, that is entirely our fault.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still puzzled. Page 5 is in German.
7MR RAMPTON: Oh, 5?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said 6 and then I thought you said 5.
9MR RAMPTON: I did say 5.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is in German.
11MR RAMPTON: I say no, I am looking at a different document
12with "05" at the bottom.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you not looking at the clip?
14MR RAMPTON: No, to this previous one.
15MR IRVING: The little bundle probably.
16MR RAMPTON: Does your Lordship remember the train load of
17Berlin Jews to Kovno?
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do.
19MR RAMPTON: J3.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am putting this latest clip into the back
21of J. I know Miss Rogers is keeping track.
22MR RAMPTON: Tab 5, my Lord.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have something in tab 5 already anyway.
24They are all going in there.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Mr Rampton. You are back on
26what?
. P-12
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