Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 196 - 201 of 207
| << 1-6 | < 190-195 | 202-207 > | 201-207 >> |
Well, Mr Irving, I am going to have to ask you to
1contrary to what you say they are nowhere near as
2sanitized, I do not believe, as you say they are. We may
3also have to look at some of the Goebbels' diary entries.
4Would your Lordship wish me to start on that exercise now?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we make a bit of a start.
6A. [Mr Irving] Would it be useful to start with the very last one, July
71942 where Hitler is still talking about Madagascar.
8MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, it would not be convenient to me.
9When you cross-examine you will find you have a particular
10order in your head or on your piece of paper.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: You must follow your own course.
12A. [Mr Irving] I was trying to cut to the bottom line which is a way of
13speeding things on.
14MR RAMPTON: One might not agree that it is the bottom line.
15Can we start, please, I am taking these from Professor
16Evans's report because there is a collection in this part
17of the report which the court might find useful, first of
18all on page 413, this is the bit we looked at before, in
19paragraph 15, we read the earlier bit before about the
20donkeys in Rome or wherever it was, Hitler says:
21 "Ich sage nur, er muss weg", "I am just saying
22he", that is the Jews, "have got to go. If he goes kaput
23in the course of it I can't help that. I only see one
24thing, absolute extermination if they don't go of their
25own accord." The German for "absolute extermination" in
26English is "absolute Ausrottung", that is at the bottom of
1the page.
2A. [Mr Irving] Yes, literally routing out, "Ausrottung".
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, it is a word which may change its sense like so many
4words in so many languages according to its context.
5A. [Mr Irving] And who is speaking it and in what century and in what
6year.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not have to the Ausrottung argument every time we
8come across the word.
9A. [Mr Irving] We have not had it yet.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] It is an argument that could go on until next Christmas.
11A. [Mr Irving] We the vernichtung argument but not the Ausrottung
12argument.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have touched on it. Let us move on.
14MR RAMPTON: I am interested in the words "wenn er dabei
15kaputt".
16A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] What do you say those words mean?
18A. [Mr Irving] If he goes "caput".
19Q. [Mr Rampton] And what does "going kaput" mean?
20A. [Mr Irving] The word "caput" is like "going for a Burton", it is one
21of those words which is a piece of vernacular, a piece of
22slang, all the wheels drop off. It is that kind of
23thing. If a car goes caput the wheels have dropped off.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] If I achieve my object of achieving a complete Ausrottung,
25let us compromise, call is extirpation or annihilation, I
26do not know, of the Jew, it does not matter to me in the
1slightest if that means death?
2A. [Mr Irving] I am sure it did not, not to Hitler, no. He did not
3really apply his mind very much to what happened once they
4had got out.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Then look at the next ----
6A. [Mr Irving] You mean by merciless or pitiless?
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Let us see how it goes on:
8"Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes
9than at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the
10prison camps because we have been driven into this
11situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why
12then did the Jews instigate the war?"
13The whole undercurrent Hitler's, I hesitate to
14call it thinking, but his ideology seems to have been that
15somehow the Jews were responsible for having started the
16war?
17A. [Mr Irving] I would look at the sentence before where he says: "Why
18should I look at the Jews differently than from a Russian
19prisoner of war? Many are dying", he says, many of the
20Russians are dying. I think you omitted the emphasis that
21that sentence needed.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know. I shall get caput, collapses, dies, it
23does not matter whether you kill them or whether they die,
24it does not matter, does, it, so long as they are all got
25rid of?
26This is Professor Evans: "Hitler came back to
1his prophecy of the extermination of the Jews is a
2widely-transmitted speech in the Reichstag on 30th January
31942", no doubt it was taken to be an anniversary of the
4speech on the ----
5A. [Mr Irving] This is the old gramophone record. He keeps playing it.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] But on the same date two or three years later?
7A. [Mr Irving] He does it on various dates, 8th November 1942.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] "Irving merely comments that in his speech Hitler reminded
9his audience of his prophetic warning to the world's Jews
10in 1939." That is page 464 of Hitler's War 1991 which
11I think, well, is it, it does not seem to be on my page
12464, but never mind. It might be a different edition
13I suspect.
14A. [Mr Irving] You are looking at the eye for an eye and the tooth for a
15tooth?
16Q. [Mr Rampton] I have that. Where is that in Hitler's War?
17A. [Mr Irving] It is not in it.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] We will read it then: "In fact Hitler was much more
19explicit. I have already pronounced in the Reichstag tag
20on 1st September 1939, and I guard myself against
21premature prophecies, that this war will not end as the
22Jews imagine, namely that the European Aryan peoples will
23be exterminated." The word is?
24A. [Mr Irving] "Ausgerottet".
25Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot find it in the German text?
26A. [Mr Irving] Line three of the footnote.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. How would you render that?
2A. [Mr Irving] Render what?
3Q. [Mr Rampton] "Ausgerottet" in that context?
4A. [Mr Irving] He is clearly not saying that it is going lead to the
5destruction or killing of all the European Aryan peoples.
6That is a clear indication that "ausrottung" is a very
7elastic word. I did not think we wanted to have the
8argument about "ausrottung" today.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] "Zondern das Ergebnis dieses Krieges die Vernichtung des
10Judentums sein wird", but that the result of this war will
11be the ----
12A. [Mr Irving] Destruction.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] --- annihilation, destruction, extermination, call it what
14you like, of Jewry. "For the first time the truly old
15Jewish law being applied this time", "Aug um Aug, Zahn um
16Zahn", yes?
17A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes?
19A. [Mr Irving] Yes, a rebel-rousing speech to the German Parliament.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] A rebel-rousing speech. What is he rousing the rebels to
21do or approve of, do you think?
22A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea, but when people make speeches to
23Parliament they tend to shoot their mouth off and they say
24what the people listening want to hear. Quoting the Old
25Testament, two anti-Semitics is quite effective.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Now 25th February.
1A. [Mr Irving] Your criticism is, of course, that I did not quote that
2particular sentence in my book.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It is my consistent criticism that whereas anything that
4puts Hitler in the least danger of being, what shall we
5say, done for the murder of the Jews, to put it crudely,
6you take it out or you leave it out.
7A. [Mr Irving] I do not agree. I put in the meat of that which is that
8once again he repeated his prophetic warning to the Jews
9that if they started a war they would not survive it,
10which is the crude way of putting that prophecy of his,
11and that there is no need to embellish it really with this
12kind of anti-Semitic jibe that he made in Parliament.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which bit did you not include?
14A. [Mr Irving] The bit about the eye for the eye last, the sentence my
15Lord.
16Q. [Mr Justice Gray] The rest I think you did include?
17A. [Mr Irving] The rest I did include, and one has to remember the
18constraints that are on an author not to overwrite, not to
19write a book that is twice as long as the publishers are
20going to accept.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Speaking for myself I would have thought you
22did get the guts of it, if that is all you left out.
23A. [Mr Irving] I appreciate the point Mr Rampton makes.
24MR RAMPTON: Page 415, I have not run a check to see whether we
25find all these passages in your books or not at the
26moment, but on a slightly different tack it is a question
1contrary to what you say they are nowhere near as
2sanitized, I do not believe, as you say they are. We may
3also have to look at some of the Goebbels' diary entries.
4Would your Lordship wish me to start on that exercise now?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we make a bit of a start.
6A. [Mr Irving] Would it be useful to start with the very last one, July
71942 where Hitler is still talking about Madagascar.
8MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, it would not be convenient to me.
9When you cross-examine you will find you have a particular
10order in your head or on your piece of paper.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: You must follow your own course.
12A. [Mr Irving] I was trying to cut to the bottom line which is a way of
13speeding things on.
14MR RAMPTON: One might not agree that it is the bottom line.
15Can we start, please, I am taking these from Professor
16Evans's report because there is a collection in this part
17of the report which the court might find useful, first of
18all on page 413, this is the bit we looked at before, in
19paragraph 15, we read the earlier bit before about the
20donkeys in Rome or wherever it was, Hitler says:
21 "Ich sage nur, er muss weg", "I am just saying
22he", that is the Jews, "have got to go. If he goes kaput
23in the course of it I can't help that. I only see one
24thing, absolute extermination if they don't go of their
25own accord." The German for "absolute extermination" in
26English is "absolute Ausrottung", that is at the bottom of
. P-196
1the page.
2A. [Mr Irving] Yes, literally routing out, "Ausrottung".
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, it is a word which may change its sense like so many
4words in so many languages according to its context.
5A. [Mr Irving] And who is speaking it and in what century and in what
6year.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not have to the Ausrottung argument every time we
8come across the word.
9A. [Mr Irving] We have not had it yet.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] It is an argument that could go on until next Christmas.
11A. [Mr Irving] We the vernichtung argument but not the Ausrottung
12argument.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have touched on it. Let us move on.
14MR RAMPTON: I am interested in the words "wenn er dabei
15kaputt".
16A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] What do you say those words mean?
18A. [Mr Irving] If he goes "caput".
19Q. [Mr Rampton] And what does "going kaput" mean?
20A. [Mr Irving] The word "caput" is like "going for a Burton", it is one
21of those words which is a piece of vernacular, a piece of
22slang, all the wheels drop off. It is that kind of
23thing. If a car goes caput the wheels have dropped off.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] If I achieve my object of achieving a complete Ausrottung,
25let us compromise, call is extirpation or annihilation, I
26do not know, of the Jew, it does not matter to me in the
. P-197
1slightest if that means death?
2A. [Mr Irving] I am sure it did not, not to Hitler, no. He did not
3really apply his mind very much to what happened once they
4had got out.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Then look at the next ----
6A. [Mr Irving] You mean by merciless or pitiless?
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Let us see how it goes on:
8"Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes
9than at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the
10prison camps because we have been driven into this
11situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why
12then did the Jews instigate the war?"
13The whole undercurrent Hitler's, I hesitate to
14call it thinking, but his ideology seems to have been that
15somehow the Jews were responsible for having started the
16war?
17A. [Mr Irving] I would look at the sentence before where he says: "Why
18should I look at the Jews differently than from a Russian
19prisoner of war? Many are dying", he says, many of the
20Russians are dying. I think you omitted the emphasis that
21that sentence needed.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know. I shall get caput, collapses, dies, it
23does not matter whether you kill them or whether they die,
24it does not matter, does, it, so long as they are all got
25rid of?
26This is Professor Evans: "Hitler came back to
. P-198
1his prophecy of the extermination of the Jews is a
2widely-transmitted speech in the Reichstag on 30th January
31942", no doubt it was taken to be an anniversary of the
4speech on the ----
5A. [Mr Irving] This is the old gramophone record. He keeps playing it.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] But on the same date two or three years later?
7A. [Mr Irving] He does it on various dates, 8th November 1942.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] "Irving merely comments that in his speech Hitler reminded
9his audience of his prophetic warning to the world's Jews
10in 1939." That is page 464 of Hitler's War 1991 which
11I think, well, is it, it does not seem to be on my page
12464, but never mind. It might be a different edition
13I suspect.
14A. [Mr Irving] You are looking at the eye for an eye and the tooth for a
15tooth?
16Q. [Mr Rampton] I have that. Where is that in Hitler's War?
17A. [Mr Irving] It is not in it.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] We will read it then: "In fact Hitler was much more
19explicit. I have already pronounced in the Reichstag tag
20on 1st September 1939, and I guard myself against
21premature prophecies, that this war will not end as the
22Jews imagine, namely that the European Aryan peoples will
23be exterminated." The word is?
24A. [Mr Irving] "Ausgerottet".
25Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot find it in the German text?
26A. [Mr Irving] Line three of the footnote.
. P-199
1Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. How would you render that?
2A. [Mr Irving] Render what?
3Q. [Mr Rampton] "Ausgerottet" in that context?
4A. [Mr Irving] He is clearly not saying that it is going lead to the
5destruction or killing of all the European Aryan peoples.
6That is a clear indication that "ausrottung" is a very
7elastic word. I did not think we wanted to have the
8argument about "ausrottung" today.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] "Zondern das Ergebnis dieses Krieges die Vernichtung des
10Judentums sein wird", but that the result of this war will
11be the ----
12A. [Mr Irving] Destruction.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] --- annihilation, destruction, extermination, call it what
14you like, of Jewry. "For the first time the truly old
15Jewish law being applied this time", "Aug um Aug, Zahn um
16Zahn", yes?
17A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes?
19A. [Mr Irving] Yes, a rebel-rousing speech to the German Parliament.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] A rebel-rousing speech. What is he rousing the rebels to
21do or approve of, do you think?
22A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea, but when people make speeches to
23Parliament they tend to shoot their mouth off and they say
24what the people listening want to hear. Quoting the Old
25Testament, two anti-Semitics is quite effective.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Now 25th February.
. P-200
1A. [Mr Irving] Your criticism is, of course, that I did not quote that
2particular sentence in my book.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It is my consistent criticism that whereas anything that
4puts Hitler in the least danger of being, what shall we
5say, done for the murder of the Jews, to put it crudely,
6you take it out or you leave it out.
7A. [Mr Irving] I do not agree. I put in the meat of that which is that
8once again he repeated his prophetic warning to the Jews
9that if they started a war they would not survive it,
10which is the crude way of putting that prophecy of his,
11and that there is no need to embellish it really with this
12kind of anti-Semitic jibe that he made in Parliament.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which bit did you not include?
14A. [Mr Irving] The bit about the eye for the eye last, the sentence my
15Lord.
16Q. [Mr Justice Gray] The rest I think you did include?
17A. [Mr Irving] The rest I did include, and one has to remember the
18constraints that are on an author not to overwrite, not to
19write a book that is twice as long as the publishers are
20going to accept.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Speaking for myself I would have thought you
22did get the guts of it, if that is all you left out.
23A. [Mr Irving] I appreciate the point Mr Rampton makes.
24MR RAMPTON: Page 415, I have not run a check to see whether we
25find all these passages in your books or not at the
26moment, but on a slightly different tack it is a question
. P-201
| << 1-6 | < 190-195 | 202-207 > | 201-207 >> |