Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 32: Electronic Edition

Pages 216 - 220 of 222

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    My Lord, I am sorry, this is a connected enquiry,
 1if I may. That may take time. I do not know myself at
 2the moment what date judgment is likely to be because
 3obviously, if your Lordship is going to consider any
 4additional documents, they will need to be got sooner
 5rather than later.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know either. I hope it will not be
 7as long as you might fear. That does not tell you very
 8much, does it. That is not intended to be delphic,
 9but think in terms of a small number of weeks rather than
10a large number of months.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I was not trying to put any pressure on at all.
12For the sake of this exercise, I obviously need to know.
13If it is going to be in three or four days time,
14I probably will not be able to achieve it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that will be unlikely. That is all I
16can do. If you can obtain it as soon as possible -- if
17you cannot, so be it. We will have to manage without.
18 MR RAMPTON:     We will do what we can.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have listed some other
21 MR IRVING:     I wish to conclude on page 104, if I may.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am so sorry. Hang on, why are you telling
23me about that now?
24 MR IRVING:     Okay, then it is wrong that I should let your
25Lordship know.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that not relevant only to costs? Tell me

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 1if I am wrong, but that would be the way I would see it.
 2 MR IRVING:     Not only the costs, my Lord, there are other
 3features of part 36.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let me just read it.
 5 MR IRVING:     My understanding is that your Lordship was not
 6informed of what was in the offer, but that offer was made
 7under the new rules.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not see the relevance of telling me that
 9unless and until it comes to the question of costs.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. The question of costs is covered by the next
11paragraph, which is that I do not propose asking for my
12costs in this action.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is premature to be telling me that.
14 MR IRVING:     Not at all, my Lord. This is surely the place when
15I can put this into your Lordship's mind and that deals
16with it, puts it out of the way.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is true, but I would only address that
18question once judgment had been given.
19 MR IRVING:     But I do ask your Lordship to give judgment in the
20terms and premises set out in my writ and statement of
21claim, namely damages, including aggravated damages for
22libel and an injunction restraining the Defendants and
23each of them, whether by themselves or agents or otherwise
24from further publishing or causing to be published the
25said or similar words defamatory of myself as claimant.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You gave me that little list of other

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 1things you were going to raise today. Standard of proof
 2in graver libels, I think you know that I believe I know
 3what the law is on that so you need not trouble with it,
 4unless you want to. Is there anything you wanted to say
 5particularly, Mr Irving? I am not stopping you, I just do
 6not think it is really necessary.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is trite law, is it not, my Lord?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is.
 9 MR IRVING:     We had this discussion earlier and I thought it
10important -- in fact it is obviously very impertinent of
11me to draw it your Lordship's attention.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not at all, no. I have it in mind
13anyway. Section 5, I think we have resolved that in an
14earlier discussion today.
15 MR IRVING:     We have dealt with 4 because I have now done it.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Costs we have decided it is premature.
17Now I realize time is passing but it is obviously sensible
18to conclude everything today, and I hope I can perhaps do
19it in this comprehensive way. You have seen that in the
20Defendants' detailed written submissions they recite
21various concessions -- you may not like the term but they
22call them concessions which they say you have made about
23such matters as shootings in the East, numbers killed,
24whether it was systematic, whether Hitler knew about it,
25and also in relation to deaths at the Reinhardt death
26camps. Do you accept you did make those concessions?

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 1 MR IRVING:     The answer is I have not seen them, but I know of
 2them. I have not had any time at all to read that big
 3thick thing.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I do not think it is fair to ask you to
 5give answers on the hoof. What I will ask you to do
 6though is this. If you either dispute that you ever made
 7the concessions that the Defendants say you made, or you
 8want now to reconsider ----
 9 MR IRVING:     Resile.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I was trying not to use that word
11actually -- to reconsider, then would you write to me and
12to the Defendants, shortly setting out what you say you
13said, or what you now say?
14 MR IRVING:     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because I do not want to be under any
17 MR IRVING:     Purely on the matter of concession?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
19 MR IRVING:     I will certainly do that within the next two or
20three days.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. Is there anything else, Mr Rampton?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, there is. I should like to apologise
23personally -- I dare say I am right in thinking it was
24directed at me -- for not being able in one moment to
25restrain my frustration. I apologise for that.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no need for that.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I should at my age know better. But, as
 2your Lordship will remember, it is sometimes extremely
 3difficult to restrain oneself when one can actually hear
 4the evidence of one's own witnesses being misrepresented.
 5I am not going to do a trawl through what Mr Irving has
 6said. Your Lordship has the evidence.
 7     But there is one thing which he said which
 8I really do think needs to be corrected. If this is a
 9case without this kind of high profile, I might say
10nothing at all. Mr Irving said that Professor van Pelt
11had no explanation for the many oddities in Bischoff's
12letter of 29th June 1943. That is an important document.
13In fact, when I re-examined on 2nd February, that is day
1414, page 3 to page 13 at the end, by reference to the
15little clip of documents by which Mr Irving sought to show
16the uniquely ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember that quite well, all the
18oddities, as it were.
19 MR RAMPTON:     In fact, he explained every single oddity, except
20the missing year date in the reference.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember that quite well, but thank
22you for reminding me what the reference is.
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, in view of my traditional right to the
24last word, I would reserve the right to write your
25Lordship a letter setting out the oddities in that
26Bischoff letter, with a copy to the Defendants.

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