Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 31: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 33

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    Secondly, we have once again only been shown
 1We have not been told what else is in that file which may
 2give it a completely innocent meaning. I submit that the
 3content of the document is relatively innocent anyway,
 4but, in view of the fact that the Defendants have had two
 5months to provide me with sufficient identifying material
 6which would enable me to identify the file so that I could
 7rummage around in the rest of the file, in the same way as
 8the Defendants were able to do with the Schlegelberger
 9document, I submit that your Lordship should say this is
10one document that should not be added to Mr Irving's
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, there was a stage in the trial when
13I think it was proposed that the Defendants should write
14to I think the archive in Munich to try to find out what
15documents, therefore, in whichever archive this did come
16from. I do not know whether that happened.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know whether it happened or not.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am right in thinking that was proposed?
19 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot even remember that, but I am sure your
20Lordship is. I really have no recollection of it. The
21short point surely is this, I would submit. This is on
22its face an original document. It does on its face say
23what we say it says.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to interrupt, but it is not
25actually an original document is it, because it is an

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 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it does actually have SS runes in the last
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It is an original Abschrift, that is the point.
 4It was an Abschrift made by some SS person at this time,
 5August 1941. There cannot be any doubting that. If
 6Mr Irving wanted, as it were, to skew or displace the
 7document's obvious significance, then it was up to him to
 8do so. The document has been in the file since goodness
 9knows when. It is no part of our burden to stand up a
10document which is on its face quite evidently authentic.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not to prevent Mr Irving saying
12"I challenge the authenticity of the document".
13 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will then have to decide whether that is a
15historically valid challenge to mount to a document of
16this kind or whether it is not.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Of course, as he does with the document of June 43
18about incineration. Of course he can.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the problem is I have not been able to go
20behind that document, if I can put it like that, because
21the wrong file was given to me. They have not provided me
22with the correct file number. They have provided me just
23repeatedly with the same Abschrift or copy, and all this
24has been done literally after the close of business on
25Friday, including sending me a document which they had
26received on January 28th, 42 days earlier, and they had

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 1only just forwarded to me, namely the copy they got from
 2Munich, and this has made it impossible for me to go
 3behind that particular document.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are launching into the detail of this one
 5document, and there is a lot of other ground to cover, but
 6are you saying to me that you would like to be told and
 7have disclosed to you by the Defendants such
 8correspondence as has taken place between them and the
 9Munich archive?
10 MR IRVING:     That would be a very useful order for your Lordship
11to make. If it turns out that they did not make the
12enquiries that your Lordship directed, then I would submit
13your Lordship should properly say in that case, "I will
14not admit this document in evidence".
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is stage two as it were. Mr Rampton,
16why should I not make an order that Mr Irving sees
17whatever correspondence there has been?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Because there is not any correspondence. It was
19done orally by Dr Longerich so far as I am aware. If
20there is a letter back from the Munich archive which I do
21not know about, which Mr Irving ought to see, then of
22course I will disclose it, or if your Lordship would like
23to see it.
24 MR IRVING:     Then of course we can see if there is any reference
25to the ----
26 MR RAMPTON:     So far as I know, there is no correspondence. Can

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 1I ask your Lordship to look at the fax cover? There are
 2two fax covers.
 3 MR IRVING:     The analogy, my Lord, would be if I produced only
 4the Schlegelberger document without the surrounding
 5documents in that file.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That is as may be. I rather doubt it myself.
 7I have no idea of the size of the file to which this
 8document may belong. For all I know, it may contain
 9thousands of documents. It is not as though Mr Irving is
10confined to Munich. There are two other archives in which
11this document resides. You will see this is not Munich,
12this is Ludwigsburg who has written to Dr Longerich.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I think should happen, since we are on
14the authenticity of this document, and what I order shall
15happen, is that by close of business today, by 5.30 today,
16Mr Irving should have disclosed to him such correspondence
17as has come into existence as a result of the Defendants'
18efforts to track down either the original of this
19document, or the contents of any file in which the
20document may reside at whichever archive it is in.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Of course. I have no problem with that at all.
22My worry is that there will not be any documents of that
23nature because there were not any letters written by
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then Mr Irving may be able to make some
26submissions based on the failure to chase up.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Unless, on the contrary, what I do do, or what
 2somebody does, it will not be me, is actually produce to
 3Mr Irving and your Lordship what one might call a file
 4note or memorandum about what Dr Longerich, if it is he
 5who did it, what he actually did.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     He probably will not any longer remember the dates
 8or the times of his telephone calls, but he will certainly
 9have a recollection of the people he spoke to and of the
10efforts that were made, and I know somebody went to the
11archive in Moscow on his behalf, to find this document
12and, if it be the case, any surrounding documents of any
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you would do that, either disclose the
15documents or in the form of a memorandum from Dr Longerich
16or those instructing you, let Mr Irving know and me what
17attempts have been made to locate anything that will help
18on the authenticity of the Muller document.
19     Mr Irving, it is for you to take your own course
20as regards any submissions you want to make, based on your
21written closing statement. Take your own course.
22 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, before one leaves the question of this
23document, Mr Irving has, I fear not for the first time and
24I say that advisedly, actually not well represented what
25was said in court about this document. What he actually
26said, and this is on page 126 of Monday 28th February

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