Irving’e karşı Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 33
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1 MR RAMPTON: I thought bundle C was the witness bundle, but it
2is obviously something different.
3 MR IRVING: There should be three or four bundle Cs over there.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has "Halle" in the top right-hand corner
5under the "C".
6 MR IRVING: "Halle" in the top right-hand corner and also ----
7 MR RAMPTON: I do not think I have got that.
8 MR IRVING: I am sorry, could his Lordship possibly have a
9slightly better picture?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
11 MR IRVING: My Lord, first of all, let me say that this is a
12matter which goes to the issue of evidence, the
13admissibility. It also goes to the question of the
14conduct of the case which has a bearing on damages and
15costs. So, I would ask your Lordship to bear those three
16matters in mind.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think I only really need to trouble
18you about admissibility.
19 MR IRVING: At this stage.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to say anything about damages,
21then do that in your final speech. I understand the point
22you are making, but we are only really concerned with
24 MR IRVING: Well, in that case that makes this session this
25morning much briefer because I was about to take your
26Lordship through the rather sorry history of how this
1evidence was withheld from me.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think now is the right time to do
3that. What you are, presumably, going to say (and I
4express no view about it) is that the way in which they
5have dealt with this material is an illustration of the
6high handed way the Defendants have behaved and the
7offensive way in which they have conducted their case
8generally, is that the kind of point you are making?
9 MR IRVING: I would have used different adjectives, but that is
10certainly my case, my Lord, that they have used muscle,
11they have used wealth, they have used power, they have
12used experience -- they are one of the most experienced
13firms of solicitors in this country, and I make no
14criticism of that fact -- against myself as a litigant to
15try to conceal evidence from me, although the Second
16Defendant had sworn an affidavit, they then referred me to
17the affidavit to prevent me from making further enquiries
18saying, "You can go behind that when the time comes to
19cross-examine", which, of course, has been denied me, that
20opportunity; and they have had these three versions of the
21Halle video in their hands, the Thames Television version
22as broadcast, the Dispatches version and then also the
23heavily edited version and then there is the raw version
24which I have looked at two or three times, particularly
25relating to the episode where I am standing making the
26speech in Halle. That too has been cut by the cameraman.
1 If they are proposing to attach any weight to
2this, then I would wish to make objections which your
3Lordship can well apprehend what those objections would be
4as to the admissibility. It is edited material, as a
5document, a video is a document within the terms of the
6rules of evidence and the Rules of the Supreme Court.
7That is why I made the original application under rule 24
8I think 13 or 16 to have that material struck out because
9of the withholding of the evidence from me. We had quite
10an intensive session and Master Trench, because the
11solicitors in that case broke an undertaking to bring the
12originals to the High Court for the hearing before Master
13Trench, I was unable to establish that it was originals
14and, therefore, not privileged material. But that is, of
15course, the other matter. That goes to the conduct of the
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Just concentrate on admissibility. As
18I understand it, you do not dispute that what was shown in
19court the other day is from a tape, but you say that it
20has been so heavily edited as to give a false impression
21of what actually happened?
22 MR IRVING: It does not give ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that the way you put it?
24 MR IRVING: It does not give a complete record of my speech, my
25Lord. It omits major parts which, in fact, as your
26Lordship would see from the bundle of the letters I wrote
1before I even was aware the tape existed when I was
2applying to all the television companies for the content
3of the speech, if your Lordship were to look at the
4letters that I wrote in April 1993 to all the television
5companies frantically trying to find anyone who had a copy
6of the original film, those are round about page 19, those
7are typical letters. Then I swore affidavits in Australia
8in 1994, that is long before this action was initiated,
9the present action, saying what was in it; the fact that
10I reprimanded the people for making these stupid slogans,
11and the fact that in the part of the speech that is cut
12out I said to the audience, "You people are all young.
13I am now old. It is the other way round. It used to be
14the old people sitting in front of me and me, the young
15person, talking to me, but now you, people, are young,
16I am old. I am talking to you. You are Germany's
17future. The world's eyes are upon you, you have to start
18behaving". That material, unfortunately, is part of the
19material that has been cut out of the video tape.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so, I mean, what you are really saying
21is that even in its unedited form, that is to say, before
22the Defendants, as it were, got their hands on it, if
23indeed they did, it gives a false impression because the
24original team -- was it an Australian team -- did not
25actually video, or This Week or whoever it was, the whole
26of what you said?
1 MR IRVING: The particular one which we have is the This Week
2raw footage and it stops and starts, if I can put it like
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I appreciate that.
5 MR IRVING: Therefore, it is an incomplete record of my
6speech. It may be a complete record or give a good image,
7and I admit this, of the kind of atmosphere and the flag
8waving, and this kind of thing, and I possibly even say
9that against myself, but as far as the content of my
10speech is concerned, it is a dodgy record.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. It seems to me what you are telling me
12now really does not amount to an objection as to the
13admissibility of the tape, but is rather a submission you
14want to make that it is so heavily edited that it does not
15give a fair impression of what actually happened. It
16seems to me, perhaps, to follow that the way to deal with
17the problem is not to rule the tape inadmissible, but to
18let you, if you have not already done so, indicate what it
19is that has not been taped which would give a completely
20different impression of what you said at that meeting.
21 MR IRVING: Not only that, my Lord, but also the implication,
22the false implication, that may be given that because
23certain people are visible on the video, therefore, I knew
24them which, of course, easily obtained by cross-cutting
25and by cutting out large chunks. I would have preferred
26your Lordship to make a simple ruling that the tape may be
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