Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 33

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    I think she has done a jolly good job because
 1comments that you wish to make, as it were, before we get
 2on to the nitty-gritty of the closing speeches.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship may well have rather, if I may say
 4so without impertinence, a good point, because it does
 5seem to me that when your Lordship has had a chance to
 6look at the nitty-gritty, I am going to write the
 7nitty-gritty first, and then what one might call the
 8summary. I would suggest that it may be advantageous if
 9your Lordship's mental process is the same, because when
10you have read the nitty-gritty, then you look at the
11summary and you say, oh, he cannot say that, it is not in
12the evidence or it is an exaggeration or whatever. One
13could get the long version to your Lordship, we will try
14to do it by Friday, but at any rate by Monday morning,
15take a day, because it will not take long to read as your
16Lordship is so familiar with the material, I can
17practically do it from memory now, and then look at the
18summary and then maybe read the summary on Tuesday, 14th.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, at all events whenever it happens, and
20it does not really matter whether it happens before or
21after the detailed submissions, my idea is that we might
22have the two final public speeches, if you follow what
23I mean, along side one another.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Absolutely, on the same day.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And probably on Tuesday.
26 MR IRVING:     Not along side each other.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not simultaneously.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think that would be music to anybody's
 3ears I have to say, but certainly on the same day. It
 4would have to be, I say "have to be", that is excessive,
 5but it would be desirable to have a fixed day because
 6there will be people coming from all over the world to
 7attend to attend.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we say Wednesday, because I suspect
 9that will get us most of the way through the detailed
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship expressed the desire I think
12to have the opportunity to ask questions on the basis ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, absolutely.
15 MR IRVING:     When do you wish to do this, after the verbal
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, what I am getting at is if we have two
18full days, Monday 13th and Tuesday 14th, I think we will
19be most of the way through closing speeches, I suspect, if
20you let me do a bit of reading beforehand. Then on
21Wednesday, there may be a little left over, but Wednesday
22would be a good opportunity I think to make these
23statements for public consumption, which in the context of
24this case is legitimate. I think in other cases it might
25not be.
26 MR IRVING:     So, if I understood it correctly because there was

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 1some confusion on Thursday evening, by the weekend I and
 2Mr Rampton would have submitted to your Lordship a paper
 3version of what we intend to say?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you can do that it would be helpful, that
 5I think is what I said on Thursday.
 6 MR IRVING:     On the basis of which on Monday and Tuesday you
 7will ask us questions, and on Wednesday we read out either
 8in Mr Rampton's case his summary or in my case whatever
 9I consider necessary of my speech in public.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. When you say I will ask questions, do
11not put the ball wholly in my court. I am hoping you will
12submit something in writing, but will also make the points
13that you regard as most significant and then I can pick
14you up on them if needs be.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am making further submissions, as your
16Lordship is aware, of which of course the Defence have not
17had a chance to answer, and it is only fair they should
18have a chance to answer and say, "This be struck out, that
19is not admissible, yes, this one is very powerful indeed".
20 MR RAMPTON:     I would propose this, that we, with Mr Irving, it
21does not need to involve the court, we make a date and a
22time for exchange of the long versions, and also the
23summaries if they are ready by then, then we see whether
24there is any water between us, and it may well be that
25there is, either side may be something the other side does
26not think they ought to be allowed to say, and your

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 1Lordship may also have some queries or questions of your
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. As to timing, if you could do it by
 4close of business on Thursday, even if it is not the
 5final -- you could not?
 6 MR IRVING:     No, not by Thursday.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I could not possibly do it by then. I will try to
 8do by close of business on Friday. It will not take very
 9long to read. One reads quite quickly when one knows a
10case well. I am told Friday logistically is optimistic.
11We will do the best we can. We will fix that with
12Mr Irving.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will not say anything about it, except that
14I think we ought to have speeches on Monday 13th. I do
15not want a slip on that.
16 MR RAMPTON:     A discussion about speeches?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The detail of speeches will start on Monday
19 MR IRVING:     But they will not be public at that time?
20 MR RAMPTON:     The public can be in court during the discussion.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course they can, but there is extra
22accommodation being laid on, as it were, for Wednesday.
23 MR RAMPTON:     The only other question is, and normally speaking
24in a case like this when one has written a long speech
25which the Judge has read, even if one is not going to read
26it in court, it will of course be accessible to anybody

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 1who wants a copy of it, whether they pay for it or whether
 2they do not, and there ought to be perhaps an embargo on
 3the release of the long version until the discussion about
 4the long version has concluded.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, without any doubt.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That leads me to mention one other thing. I am a
 7bit of ahead of myself. It is this. When your Lordship
 8comes to give judgment in the normal way the solicitors
 9and counsel get a copy of the judgment a day before.
10Mr Irving does not have solicitors or counsel. (A) it is
11not fair if we get it a day before and he does not. (B)
12it is not fair if he gets a copy himself and my clients do
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Oddly enough I did not think I have ever had
16 MR RAMPTON:     I have.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One has had cases with litigants in person,
18but I have never had this particular problem about how you
19deal with -- my instinct would be that Mr Irving does get
20it at the same time as your legal team get it, but that he
21is, as it were, strictly embargoed as to the use that he
22can make of it. That seem to me to be the fair-handed way
23of doing it.
24 MR RAMPTON:     That is all I am concerned about. What I do not
25want is him getting it into the public forum before we do,
26if I can put it crudely.

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