Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 214

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    Operation Reinhardt, in a sense, is the last stage of a
 1taken already.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not many more questions on this matter, Professor. Would
 3you be able to make any kind of global estimates on these
 4kind of data and say, well, therefore, the number of
 5victims was not less than a certain figure and it was
 6probably not more than a certain figure, on the basis that
 7of course not everybody had valuable wristwatches or
 8valuable fountain pens, but on the other hand not many
 9people wear two wristwatches, shall we say, so it was
10probably not less than 100,000 people? Can you say that?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that this would help us with a minimum figure
12but it would be nowhere close to a maximum figure because
13they are presumably skimming the cream and taking the very
14best things. Most Jews would have traded their
15wristwatches for food and whatever else long before this
16if they were in desperate straits, which they were. So it
17does not give us anything approaching a maximum figure.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene to say that I just have done some
19arithmetic? It is not obviously an exhaustive figure for
20whatever reason, but the total under A on this page is
21200,000 items.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which page are you?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Page 10, my Lord, at A. Many of these items may
24of course come from the same person, one does not know.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I was wondering. You can have a
26fountain pen and a watch.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Of course you can.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What was the number?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     200,000 precisely.
 4 MR IRVING:     Exactly, but it is giving orders of magnitude, in
 5my opinion, my Lord. We are really clutching at straws
 6and trying to arrive at figures. Is it not right,
 7Professor, that our statistical database for arriving at
 8any kind of conclusions for the numbers of people who have
 9been killed in the Holocaust by whatever means, we are
10really floundering around in the dark, are we not? Is
11that correct?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I would not express it that way. I would say we have
13a very accurate list of the deportation trains from
14Germany. In many cases we have the entire roster name by
15name and we are not floundering. We can tell you, as we
16have seen in the intercepts, 974 on one train.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I interrupt you there and you say in many cases, but,
18of course, had we got a complete list of all the ----
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can I finish my answer.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- trains, then ----
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     May I finish my answer?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him finish. You have been very good,
23Mr Irving, but let him finish this answer.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms again of France, the Netherlands, the countries
25from which there were deportations from Western Europe, we
26can do a very close approximation by trains, the number of

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 1people per train.
 2     In the area of Poland, there were at least
 3statistics in terms of ghetto populations and these
 4ghettos were liquidated completely, so we can come to a
 5fairly good rough figure of Polish Jews. We also have a
 6fairly reliable prewar census and postwar calculations so
 7that one can do a subtraction. So, in terms of Holocaust
 8victims from Poland westward, we are not floundering. We
 9are coming fairly close approximation.
10     Where historians differ and where you get this
11figure of between 5 and 6 is because we do not have those
12figures for the Soviet Union.
13 MR IRVING:     Can I halt you at this point ----
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is where we are -- that the numbers vary greatly.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But can I halt you at that point and say the fact that a
16train load of Jews sets out from Amsterdam or from France
17does not, of course, necessarily mean that they end up
18being gassed or killed in some other way, does it?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If they are sent to camps like Treblinka or Sobibor or
20Chelmno or Belzec, yes, they are virtually all
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of eyewitness evidence?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     On the basis of, yes, what I have presented here. We know
24that ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which we are coming to later on?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and they do not come back.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They disappear.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the Nazis did not want them to come back, but would
 4you accept that large numbers were also the subject of,
 5shall we say, population movements, particularly in the
 61939/1940 period. You talked about the Jews in Poland?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, this is a move from one area of German control to
 8another. So Jews that are moved from the Warthegau into
 9the General Government are then included in the ghetto
10population statistics of the various towns in the General
11Government and those ghettos are then liquidated and they
12count as part of the disappearance ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you mean "the ghetto is liquidated", you mean the
14ghetto is just wound up?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The ghetto is empty. People are put on trains.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Emptied, but the word "liquidated" is rather suggestive
17that something else is happening?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, that was the German term. "Ghetto liquidierung" is
19their word, and that these liquidation, ghetto
20liquidations, also we know the mode in which they were
21carried out with extraordinary brutality and ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but come back to Poland for a minute. You talk about
23the fact that we had the prewar population census and the
24postwar census. We are having a major problem with Poland
25because the whole of Poland was shifted westwards as a
26result of the agreements, so what do you mean by Poland?

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 1This is the first problem. Is that not right?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, you are talking about territory, but the Polish
 3population in terms of number of Jews left at the end
 4really is not changed or altered by a shifting of borders
 5because there were no Jews in either the German or the
 6Polish territory.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     They also have a problem caused by the fact that the
 8Soviet Union arbitrarily declared that everybody who was
 9in the Soviet occupied part of certain parts of Poland
10became Soviet citizens. After they had entered,
11I believe, on September 19th or September 17th 1939, did
12they not arbitrarily declare after that that large number,
13the citizens who had previously been Polish were now
14Soviet citizens?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but those areas ten fall back under the Germans and
16they are part of the statistics -- I mean, the prewar
17census we have is pre1939.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that the Jews who were in the Soviet part
19of occupied Poland in 1939 stayed there until the Germans
20invaded two years later?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think most did. Some did manage to get -- those that
22were saved, for the most part, were the ones that Stalin
23sent on to Siberia.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right the figure of those who left and were sent on
25to Siberia was of the order of 300,000?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     

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