Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 93

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    Taken overnight and put back. You did not have permission
 1for that?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did you have permission to take two plates which were
 4later replaced?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Two and two. They gave us permission to take two and two,
 6so we took out four plates with permission.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, they did not give you permission to take plates back
 8to England for testing?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Tatiana never knew about the first plate and she never
11knew (because you did not tell her) about the trip those
12plates made to England and back?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, thank you.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     But all this, of course, is the subject of a formal
16written admission which I made to you in this case over a
17year ago. So we could have spared a lot of this time.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am grateful.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not really material in the issue anyway, in my
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, are you aware of serious concern
22in archival circles that you might have significantly
23damaged the plates when you had them copied without
24archival permission?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the allegation made in the book. We are not going
26to be able to test that allegation because we will not

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 1have the chance of -- I have not seen any evidence put in
 2to that effect.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you whether you are aware of any?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I am not aware of it, my Lord. We now hear that the
 5Russian archivists are not going to be called either. So
 6it is going to be very difficult to establish the truth of
 7that allegation.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see the force of that.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     But I shall try to lead evidence when my time comes to the
10effect that I have benefited the community of historians
11rather than having disadvantaged them.
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, for the moment at least, until we get
13back, if we do, to right-wing extremism perhaps next week,
14that concludes my cross-examination at the moment.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask you because it is something
16that went through my mind in fact this morning about
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The position on Dresden is that there is
20quite a lot of material on it.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is all in that file.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We really spent, I am probably wrong
23about this, but it seemed to me that we really spent most
24of the time on Tagesbefehl 47. There is a good deal more
25and I just wondered again what the position in relation to
26Professor Evans' other points on Dresden is.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge
 2Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back into
 3the arena. For my part, again, one has to make judgments
 4in a case of this magnitude.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I quite understand.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Or we are going to be here for ever. I am, I am
 7afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every point
 8under the sun in the hope that something will come out.
 9If there are points on Evans' report that I have not
10taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision not
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters
13relating to Dresden and putting documents to him.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Might I enquire, before I sit down, through your
15Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his
16cross-examination of Professor Evans might be?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Evans or Browning?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Evans. Both actually, because I need to schedule
19both of them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to go back to your other role?
21 < (The witness stood down)
22 MR IRVING:     I now wear my other hat and say that, in view of
23the revelation today that the defence are not proposing to
24call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the
25cross-examination that would have fallen on them will now
26fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their

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 1expert reports.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are perfectly entitled to cross-examine
 3any of the experts on anything subject to their
 4entitlement to say, "I have not a clue and I do not know
 5about that".
 6 MR IRVING:     I can only do that of course if they are present.
 7I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not suppose
 8that would have much point.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You cannot do that for all sorts of reasons
10but there is no reason why you should not cross-examine
11Professor Evans about what is said in the other experts'
12reports that I am aware of anyway.
13 MR IRVING:     I can put to Professor Evans the documents that
14I would have been putting to Professors Levin or Eatwell.
15It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also means
16inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into a
17hotel for some length of time.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we take them one at a time? Browning
19we have on Monday. His report is quite short, which is a
21 MR IRVING:     Browning has many enemies around the world who have
22been funding me with material with which to challenge him.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How long is the challenge going to take?
24 MR IRVING:     Two days for Professor Browning, I think.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Monday and Tuesday. Then Evans

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes. February 7th we have probably half an hour or
 2one hour of Sir John Kegan.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John Kegan
 4first before we start on Browning?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would think that is better.
 6 MR IRVING:     That would make far more sense.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Browning for two days, which brings us to the end
 8of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday. Then
 9Mr Irving's day or whatever he needs to prepare, which
10would be Wednesday.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Start Professor Evans on Thursday.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans for
13Thursday. That also has, from Mr Irving's point of view,
14the convenience that he then has three days off if he is a
15bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to get
16the ball rolling again on the following Monday.
17 MR IRVING:     That is quite right. It sounds admirable.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What you have not yet answered is the enquiry
19about how long you are likely to cross-examine Professor
20Evans for?
21 MR IRVING:     I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that
22because I shall have now to go through my two filing
23cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use
24against the other two and put it into the Evans slot. So
25it will be, I would say, probably four days.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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