Irving’e karşı Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 175

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I have re-read that passage.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not object to this? You introduced it
 4Mr Irving, so I think it is right.
 5 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I would like to go back to the point in my report which is
 6at page 306 where the actual quotation is. I have
 7repeated it in a few other places but I think 306 is a
 8good point to do that.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It starts in the second paragraph: "On the basis of the
11figure of 2.5 million", and I do not know if you want me
12to read it?
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Shall I just cast my eye down it? (Pause for reading)
14Yes, I have looked at quickly. I have read it before.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     OK. So the point is that what Hoess says -- I will
16summarize it -- is that there is this figure of two and a
17half million which is mentioned by Eichmann. This is the
18only figure we have because Eichmann mentions it. But
19then he says that I have only kept to this figure because
20Eichmann has given it, but I myself think it is too high.
21Then he makes his own calculation on the basis of
22transports coming into Auschwitz. So he actually
23challenges that figure. After he has first mentioned it
24he challenges this figure and he comes then to a total
25number of deportations of 1,125,000 Jews going to
26Auschwitz at the bottom of that paragraph.

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 1     So that I think will in some way resolve the
 2confusion about these two numbers.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. That is helpful.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, there are a couple of other points --
 5I have seen these documents for the first time myself --
 6which I just draw attention to, perhaps through the
 7witness. Can we go back to page 10, Professor van Pelt?
 8I do not know that you did draw attention to this, it
 9really is obvious. There is underneath the Kommandantur
10KL there is an AZ and a colon.
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then a number. Do you see that that number is
13somewhat typed? It may have been altered in hand, I
14cannot see.
15 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You notice also that the reference is underlined?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn over the page,, this one is coming from
19Birkenhau apparently and, unlike the previous one, the
20reference is handwritten and there is no underline.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the significance of the underlining,
22do you suggest?
23 MR RAMPTON:     I am not suggesting any significance at all. All
24I am suggesting is that this is a medley.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Another variation?
26 MR RAMPTON:     It depends who is typing it, it depends how fussy

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 1the boss is, all that kind of thing. There is nothing to
 2be told from these documents except that, like all
 3offices, they vary in their practices. Look, will you
 4please, Professor, at page 12, again at the reference,
 5there is no underline. We see that it is apparently typed
 6by a secretary called Lm, whatever gender that may have
 7been. If you turn over to the last page, again we find
 8the reference both typed and underlined. And we find that
 9Lm is typing for somebody else called Eg. Do you see
10that?
11 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not happen to know who Eg was, do you?
13 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Egelich.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not particularly arise out of this, I think, or
15indirectly -- do you happen to know how many secretaries
16there were at any one time?
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That changed. There are documents which have actually
18been signed by people who also had other functions.
19Normally I think there were one or two German secretaries
20and there were a number of Polish secretaries also. For
21example, P is a Polish worker named Pluskurer. It seems
22to be that there was no regular typing pool in the
23Zentralbauleitung. Also the Zentralbauleitung, if you
24look at the personnel lists, changes very rapidly, with
25people moving in and people moving out.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if the authenticity of the
 2incineration capacity is still in issue, you might want to
 3cross-examine further? I do not know.
 4 MR IRVING:     I think I am entitled on the points he has made, my
 5Lord.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are certainly entitled to, yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     I will be as brief as I possibly can.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not hurry
 9     < Further cross-examined by Mr Irving
10 MR IRVING:     Firstly, I will abandon relying on the full stops.
11That will probably ease your Lordship's task in assessing
12the matter, but the other matters, I am afraid, are just
13reinforced by what I have seen here.
14     First of all, reverting to what you said about
15the witness Hoess, the Kommandant of Auschwitz, have you
16seen a handwritten confession by Hoess made in British
17captivity at the request of Colonel Draper, the British
18public prosecutor?
19 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I have not seen that.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was one of the very first statements he made, in which
21he admitted -- it is just five or six lines long --
22having killed 2.8 million people in Auschwitz.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No, I have not seen that one.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Killing by gas?
25 MR IRVING:     Just killing, my Lord. He does not actually say.
26I rely on that purely to indicate the vacillating nature

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 1of the figures that the witness Hoess gave.
 2     Reverting now to these documents that you
 3very kindly produce for the court, I will take up first of
 4all the point that his Lordship very astutely made about
 5page 6, where you pointed out that the letter book number
 6was typed. Witness, what does the first word on that page
 7mean, "Abschrift"?
 8 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That means it is a copy.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it has been copied from the original?
10 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would there have been any reason why somebody copying an
12original document would have then left a space there and
13handwritten in the letter book number, which was
14presumably handwritten in on the original? He would have
15typed a copy of the whole document, would he not?
16 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I presume so, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it would be wrong to draw any significance from the
18fact that that one is typed. Stepping through the
19documents, I would just ask in general, have you seen, in
20all the documents that you have worked on in the Auschwitz
21archives, any other document in which the year 43 or 44 is
22missing from the letter register line?
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Are we referring back to the original Moscow document?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Any document at all. Have you seen any document at all?
25I am not referring to the date of the document. I am
26referring to the letter register line.

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