Irving’e karşı Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 199
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1 MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. Mr Rampton may very well wish
2to point to one or two things in it.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us see.
4 MR IRVING: The next document, page 9, is the actual
5memorandum. Page 10 is something that I did not have
6before me yesterday, my Lord. It is a translation of the
7following page, page 11 or part of it. If your Lordship
8were just to turn to page 11, I draw your attention to two
9things: first of all, the number at the top, 2653, where,
10at the beginning of the notes or near the beginning of the
11notes to the second volume of my Hitler biography, namely
12Hitler's War, and we are already on manuscript page
132,653. This will give your Lordship an idea of the
14magnitude of the task and I would therefore pray your
15Lordship's indulgence if I have occasionally got a word
16wrong or mistyped a word.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not underrate the magnitude of the task
19 MR IRVING: I am indebted to you. I have translated note 63.
20Your Lordship will notice that the notes are not in the
21book in this form. Quite simply, the publisher said,
22"Mr Irving, that would add an extra 500 pages on to the
23text", so it went. It is helpful because note 53 refers,
24in this context, to the Schlegelberger document. The staff
25evidence analysis sheet, which is also in this bundle, we
26referred to yesterday. The copies were notarised by
1Dr Robert Kempner, which is not really important, unless
2we get on to the question of who found it first and when
3should he have used it.
4 Then I continue: " Before the International
5Military Tribunal (at Nuremberg) Lammers testified that
6Himmler had told him that he had received from the Fuhrer
7the task of bringing about a Final Solution of the Jewish
8problem, i.e. that 'the Jews were to be evacuated out of
9Germany'". That part is in quotation marks. "Lammers
10wanted to find out for himself, he said, and fixed an
11appointment with Fuhrer whereupon the Fuhrer told me that,
12yes, it was quite right that he had given the evacuation
13order to Himmler, but he did not want to hear any more
14briefings about this Jewish problem during the war".
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is undated.
16 MR IRVING: This is from the transcript of the international
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. What I mean is there is no indication in
19the document as to when that was said by Hitler. For all
20we know, it may have been said in 1940 or '41.
21 MR IRVING: I will deal with that point very shortly, my Lord,
22when we skip a page, and we now come to page 12. Your
23Lordship or Mr Rampton might quite well object that it is
24unsatisfactory, that I should produce the quotation from
25the transcript in that form, of course, the Military
26Tribunal transcript. I objected, of course, in exactly
1the same terms yesterday but, if your Lordship is
2interested, I am sure we can obtain the precise page from
4 Page 12. Two or three years ago, I went to the
5national archives in Washington and looked at the detailed
6verbatim interrogations of the number of people who were
7present at the Wannsee Conference and at the subsequent
8conference, my Lord, which your Lordship will remember was
9on March 6th 1942.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you mean Wannsee?
11 MR IRVING: Wannsee on January 20th 1942 -- W-A-N-N-S-E-E
12-- and the subsequent conference, which was held at the
13headquarters of Heydrich on March 6th 1942. I wanted to
14find out what the participants said, what they recalled
15immediately afterwards, after the war. They were
16interrogated in detail by the Americans. We have the
17verbatim transcripts in German and English. I did not
18copy the transcripts, but I typed extracts on the filing
19cards which you will see on pages 13 and 14, my Lord, the
20relevant parts. I have translated them on page 12 which
21I think is all we need to look at today.
22 Cabinet counseller, Dr Hans Ficher of the Reich
23Chancellery (Lammers department) stated that from the
24invitation it was evident that evacuation or sterilisation
25were on the agenda." I skip on to the next
26sentence: "Lammers took this minute to the Fuhrer and
1returned with a memorandum. The discussion of the whole
2affair is to be postponed until after the end of the
3war". That must have been in March 1942. That is the
4opinion of Bohle. "To our horror", and I rely on this
5sentence, my Lord, "we learned that that then continued
6behind the scenes. We learned that that then continued
7behind the scenes".
8 Although Hitler had given this order, leave
9everything until the end of the war, to our horror, they
10learned that it went on behind the scenes, rather like the
11Bruns business, your Lordship will remember. The order
12comes down from Hitler's headquarters.
13 What we are looking for, I would submit, is any
14indication that I have been perverse in putting on this
15kind of document the meaning that I did in my various
16writings and utterances. If I continue now to the next
17statement by Mr Gottfried Bohle, who is also at the Reichs
18Chancellory Department, he testified that he had been
19interrogated about this on more than one occasion. The
20conference, he recalled, was at the headquarters of
21Heydrich's department, the RSHA. Eichmann opened, and
22I am relying on this purely to show that it was not just a
23discussion about the mixed race, my Lord. It was a
24discussion about the Jews as a whole.
25 Eichmann opened with the need for a quick
26solution of the Jewish Question. Bohle told his wife
1afterwards that they had talked of Jews being supplied
2like cattle. One man had objected, one cannot proceed
3against Jews who had behaved correctly, Eichmann's No. 2,
4that was SS van Fuhrer Gunter, said "that comes under our
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not at the moment see what bearing that
7has on the issue we are concerned with.
8 MR IRVING: It is an indication where the kind of decisions are
9being taken, my Lord.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. Anyway Bohle again?
11 MR IRVING: Bohle in another interrogation said, and I draw
12attention only to the second two sentences, Hitler wanted
13postponement until after the war. "Whether the security
14police knew about the different orders from Hitler,
15I cannot say." In other words, different to what they
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
18 MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship may attach no significance
19whatsoever to these documents. I am a historian looking
20at these documents. I submit that it is perfectly proper
21for me to pay attention to them, and it is not perverse
22for me to attach the significance to them that I did and
23the meanings that I did.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25 MR IRVING: That is all that I have to submit on this
26Schlegelberger memorandum, my Lord.
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