Irving’e karşı Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 195

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    Even if it has, a senior Civil Servant will be well aware
 1said that he wants the thing postponed. What the document
 2does not say is that Herr Lammers went into Hitler's
 3office and said: "Look, Mein Fuhrer, there is this
 4squabble going on", and that Hitler said on that
 5occasion: "But you know perfectly well this can't
 6happen. I am not having the Jewish question solved at
 7this stage. It has got to be postponed until the end of
 8the war."
 9     Now that last fanciful example is what you have
10deduced from this document, is it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, I am going to ask his Lordship's permission to
12come in tomorrow with a little bundle say of, say, four or
13five documents on this particular point, which I would ask
14his Lordship's permission to put before the Court.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you would rather leave it now, I will leave it now. I
16am just going to propose, you can think about it
17overnight, one other possibility to you.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     It is just that I would like the chance to bring in the
19documents which will support my position rather than
20yours.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, by all means.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I think that is perfectly reasonable.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It will be a very small clip, and not one of my usual
24bundles.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I may need time to consult them with my expert team. I am
26not an expert. Mr Irving, there is one other possibility,

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 1is there not, that if this represents, this note, a
 2contemporaneous statement by Hitler about his intentions
 3for the Jews in general ----
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- then it is quite possible that it is not a 1942
 6document at all for this reason, that up to September
 71941, the beginning of the entlosung on Hitler's order had
 8not happened?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it is logically consistent with Hitler's known
11intentions and statements in the earlier part of 1941 or
12in 1940, that this document might emanate at that date, is
13it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     A vanishingly small probability that that was possible.
15To suggest that this 1942 file of documents could contain
16a stray document out of 1941, flies in the face of the
17German mentality.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Before we stop tonight, Mr Irving, and you collect your
19thoughts on the things I have been putting to you, does
20the file which you are talking about, is it an original
21Justice Ministry file in full integrity, or has it been
22mucked around with by the Allies?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I can establish what condition it was in when it came into
24Allied possession because we have the staff evidence
25analysis sheet of the contents of that file, listing the
26contents.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But the thing you have seen is not, therefore, an original
 2pristine, untouched Reichs Justice Ministry file?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I would just comment, I do not intend just to collect
 4my thoughts tonight. I know precisely where my thoughts
 5are, but I think it would be more useful if I can buttress
 6them with the actual paperwork which establishes that
 7these are not stray thoughts.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is your Lordship content with that?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is a convenient moment, are you
10saying, Mr Rampton?
11 MR RAMPTON:     No, I meant is it convenient for me to stop now?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is what I thought you mind. Can
13I just mention one or two things?
14 (Administrative Discussion).
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Finally, Mr Rampton, can I just ask this.
16I thought I said something, but I may have forgotten, in
17which case it is my fault, about maybe having half a page
18of argument, just so I know what the issue is in advance
19of tomorrow on this question of Auschwitz.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It may only just be a question of my copying out
21what I said from the transcript in that case. I have
22nothing more to say.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Even that or the reference. Could you fax
24through the reference?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. The short point is this. It seems to
26unarguable that on the pleadings, and whether you talk

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 1about the old pleadings or the new Statement of Case, and
 2on the discovery and everything else besides our case is
 3perfectly clear. It is I hope accurately stated by me
 4I think it was yesterday. I cannot do any better then
 5that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the convergence of evidence point, is
 7it?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. There are two separate things about it. Let
 9me take it stages. I am not here to prove that Auschwitz
10had gas chambers, homicidal gas chambers. I do not need
11to do that. If you again you have an open mind and you
12look at the convergence of evidence, eyewitness testimony
13from victims.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember what you said.
15 MR RAMPTON:     All of that, perpetrators, and the contemporaneous
16documentary evidence and the archeological remains, you
17are drink to conclude, as a matter of probability at the
18very least, that indeed what the eyewitnesses tell us is
19true. I am not here to persuade your Lordship of that,
20save as a preliminary first step to two things. Mr Irving
21on the back of a piece of so-called research which is not
22worth the paper it is written on jumped up and said he was
23perfectly certain that there were never any gas chambers
24at Auschwitz, and he has said that statement, made that
25statement repeatedly in circumstances where it is apt to
26excite the hostility towards Jews of people who are likely

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 1to be anti-Semitic, which is the political side of this
 2case which we will get to later on. As an insight into
 3Mr Irving's credentials as a so-called historian, it is
 4extremely illuminating, and that is the whole of my
 5argument.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The question which may be capable of being
 7narrowed is the extent to which Mr Irving contests the
 8possible validity of the eyewitnesses' evidence, the
 9survivor's evidence, the camp officials' evidence and so
10on?
11 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I do not know what his case is. His
12case could be twofold: No, Liechter is not rubbish, it is
13jolly good and what is more there is a whole lot of other
14stuff besides relating, for example, to coke consumption
15and incineration capacity and goodness what else, which
16converges towards the conclusion that everybody has been
17wrong all this time, that leads me to the conclusion that
18the eyewitnesses are mistaken or lying. It could be his
19case. I just do not know.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that may be sufficient. We can
21debate that tomorrow. 10.30 tomorrow.
22 <(The witness stood down)
23(The court adjourned until the following day)
24
25
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