Irving’e karşı Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 201 - 205 of 207
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Your criticism is, of course, that I did not quote that
2particular sentence in my book.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is my consistent criticism that whereas anything that
4puts Hitler in the least danger of being, what shall we
5say, done for the murder of the Jews, to put it crudely,
6you take it out or you leave it out.
7 A. [Mr Irving] I do not agree. I put in the meat of that which is that
8once again he repeated his prophetic warning to the Jews
9that if they started a war they would not survive it,
10which is the crude way of putting that prophecy of his,
11and that there is no need to embellish it really with this
12kind of anti-Semitic jibe that he made in Parliament.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which bit did you not include?
14 A. [Mr Irving] The bit about the eye for the eye last, the sentence my
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] The rest I think you did include?
17 A. [Mr Irving] The rest I did include, and one has to remember the
18constraints that are on an author not to overwrite, not to
19write a book that is twice as long as the publishers are
20going to accept.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Speaking for myself I would have thought you
22did get the guts of it, if that is all you left out.
23 A. [Mr Irving] I appreciate the point Mr Rampton makes.
24 MR RAMPTON: Page 415, I have not run a check to see whether we
25find all these passages in your books or not at the
26moment, but on a slightly different tack it is a question
1of whether the table talk is really so, what shall we say,
2unmisstated as you put it, as you suggest.
3 "At Hitler's table talk on 22nd February 1942,
4the following statement was recorded: It is one of the
5greatest revolutions there has ever been in the world.
6The Jew will be identified! The same fight that Pasteur
7and Koch had to fight must be led by us today.
8Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one bacillus:
9the Jew. Japan would also have got them", the bacilli, I
10think, "if it had remained open any longer to the Jew. We
11will get well when we eliminate the Jew", and the word he
12uses, is reported as having used, is "eliminieren"?
13 A. [Mr Irving] "Eliminieren", yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is pretty blunt, is it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but there is no suggestion that I have not repeatedly
16and on every occasion stated when Hitler referred to the
17Jews as "bascilli" that need to be eliminated. Of course,
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] What does antibiotic medicine do to bascilli?
20 A. [Mr Irving] Good Lord! You are not asking me as a medical expert,
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Come on, Mr Irving, you are older than I am. I do not say
23you remember Pasteur and Koch, but, for heaven's sake, we
24all know what antibiotics do, they kill germs?
25 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is what Pasteur discovered, was it not?
1 A. [Mr Irving] He has not actually talked about antibiotics in here, has
2he? I do not want to start nit-picking which is the
3opposite of what you are doing.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] The meaning of this is kill the germs, the Jewish germs,
5is it not?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Eliminating them.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you get rid of germs except by killing?
8 A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea. You can wash your hands in soap and
9water. There are various different ways of getting rid of
10germs. That is why he has used word "eliminate".
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is right, you send them to Madagascar or Russia in a
13 A. [Mr Irving] That is the July 1942 entry which you did not want to have
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to that. I do not use the same kind of
16ellipses, Mr Irving, as I suggest you do.
17 A. [Mr Irving] I am aware of the fact that we are coming up to the end of
18the afternoon and you have left the public without some of
19the best items which are in my favour, if they are going
20to be mentioned at all.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we can co-ordinate the
22evidence. It is a nice idea! Let us have one more, shall
24 MR RAMPTON: We are going to have the next one on 24th
26 A. [Mr Irving] Can we not have July 1942?
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] We will get to it tomorrow and you can have your audience,
2but you cannot be my stage manager, I am afraid,
4 On 24th February 1942 a statement by Hitler was
5announced to NSDAP party members in Munich which again
6made a reference to his prophecy."
7 Before I read it, Mr Irving, I want to know
8whether you say this is something which was cooked up by
9party officials without reference to Hitler?
10 A. [Mr Irving] I am not going to express an opinion on that. It is taken
11out of Max Demarus' collection of press clippings,
12effectively. So it is a published statement, published in
13the German press. So it actually cannot have a very
14sinister connotation, surely.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know.
16 A. [Mr Irving] I thought this was top secret what was going on.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know if you read it.
18 "Today the idea of our National Socialist, and
19that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great and
20powerful states, and my prophecy will find its fulfilment,
21that through this war Aryan humankind will not be
22annihilated, but the Jew will be", ausgerottet werden
23wird, will be ausgerottet?
24 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, he has used the fifth or sixth meaning of the word
25"ausgerottet" rather than the primary meaning.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, we might go back to the Langscheite overnight or
1some greater authority, I do not know.
2 A. [Mr Irving] I have a whole shelf of dictionaries.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not going to do it now.
4 "Whatever the struggle may bring with it or
5however long it may last, this will be its final result,
6and only then with the removal of these parasites with a
7long period of understanding between nations, and with it
8true peace, come upon the suffering."
9 Again, it is similar to the reference to the
10"bacillus". Of course in one sense it is metaphorical.
11 A. [Mr Irving] It does not really help us, does it, actually, getting rid
12of the Jews?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you talk about ridding a house of its parasites ----
14 A. [Mr Irving] "Beseitigung", getting rid of, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, or exterminating them ----
16 A. [Mr Irving] I am thinking of somebody with a broom, like, "get out of
17here, "get out of here".
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Parasites, no, I think not, Mr Irving. What I am
19suggesting is that Hitler did not need at his table talk
20or in his public occasions to talk about gas chambers or
21shootings, indeed he would not have done, but he is
22talking in terms of genocide, is he not?
23 A. [Mr Irving] So he is announcing it in the press, "We are going to be
24carrying out genocide"? This is a press clipping.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] This is an announcement to party members?
26 A. [Mr Irving]
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