Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 13th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23 PROCEEDINGS - DAY THREE
1 < DAY 3 Thursday, 13th January 2000
2MR DAVID IRVING, Recalled.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
4 MR IRVING: May it please the court, with your Lordship's
5permission, I have brought the bundle of the documents
6that we were referring to last night. Unless your
7Lordship would see any reason against, I propose rapidly
8stepping through these documents, pausing at the ones
9which are significant as far as we can determine so far
10from the direction and thrust of the cross-examination.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You are in the middle of your
12cross-examination. So, in the ordinary way, we will wait
13and see when the documents became relevant to Mr Rampton's
15 MR IRVING: They have been in discovery throughout, my Lord.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. But I suspect most of them
17are going to become relevant to the answers you are going
18to be giving to some of the questions Mr Rampton
20 MR IRVING: I do apprehend it will be useful to the court, I
21appreciate that it is your Lordship's court, but I believe
22it will be useful.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You may well be right. I cannot really tell,
24I have only glanced at it. Shall I ask Mr Rampton --
25because he is cross-examining, so, on the face of it, he
26has the right to continue to cross-examine.
1 MR RAMPTON: I have no objection. In a sense, it is either
2evidence-in-chief in anticipation of cross-examination, or
3it is what one might call "premature re-examination".
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5 MR RAMPTON: One way or the other it is going to make no
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are happy I will not stand in the way.
8 Before that happens I wonder if I could mention
9one or two administrative points? The first is, I think
10we are all agreed through nobody's fault, this is not a
11very suitable court and I am very concerned that there are
12members of the public who, I think, are not able to get in
13and listen and want to. Having made enquiries, as I said
14I would, I think there are two possible courts to which we
15could move which were not available or were not thought to
16be available when we started. One is court 73, which
17I have looked at and looks to me to be much better than
18this in almost every respect. There is, apparently,
19another one, which is in Chichester Rents in Chancery
20Lane, which is even bigger. I think I would have some
21slight personal preference for 73, but what I wanted to
22ask you is that I think we should move anyway, because
23this is not satisfactory and it seems to me, unless you
24are going to tell me there are insuperable problems,
25tomorrow is the day to do the move. Are you in agreement
26that that is the right thing to do?
1 MR IRVING: I would have suggested doing it over the weekend
2although I have no logistical problems myself --
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think they have a lot of problems
4ahead of them, but I think it is better to do it now than
5to struggle on and regret it every day from hereon.
6 MR RAMPTON: That would suit us awfully well, if we could make
7a fresh start in what I call a "proper big court" on
9 MR IRVING: Not a fresh start.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will decide -- not a fresh start.
11 MR RAMPTON: No, thank you.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will decide during the course of today
13which it is going to be and, obviously, let you know. We
14will take it that on Monday we will be in a different
16 MR RAMPTON: May I ask where exactly 73 is?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is where all those new Court of Appeals
19 MR RAMPTON: In the East Building.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: In the end I would have to say, my Lord, it is a
22matter for you.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is, if you have strong feelings.
24 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not know Chancery Lane much at all
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is point one.
1 The next relates to the TA Law Transcripts which
2are being done. Really, I think I am saying this on
3behalf of the lady who is doing the transcribing. She is
4having the most appalling task. She is here all day, and
5she is by herself, as it were. It would help her if we
6could slightly slow down. Mr Irving, you speak fairly
7rapidly anyway. That is not a criticism at all.
8 MR IRVING: I thought I was speaking slowly.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can bear in mind there is somebody
10trying to take down what you say, if we can try to
11remember to spell out the German names when they crop up
12for the first time. That is going to make everybody's
13life much easier.
14 There is one other point on the transcripts.
15The Day 2 transcript starts at page 104. My own feeling
16(and I do not know whether you share it, Mr Rampton) is
17that it would be better if every day started at 1, so you
18have Day 2, page 1, rather than page 104. I am told that
19is physically possible. So that is what I think we will
20have in the future.
21 That is all that I wanted to raise except that,
22Mr Irving, I have seen (and I do not know whether
23Mr Rampton has) your letter about the letter to me about
24the article in the Stuttgart press. Do you know about
26 MR RAMPTON: No.
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