Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 204

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     If it fits the criteria which I mentioned earlier.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If it fits the bill, I would suggest, Mr Irving.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not what I said. I said if it fits the criteriA.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got your Goebbels' book there?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say on page 379 -- has your Lordship got one?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have. 379, you say?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have that.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are talking here about an article written by, or
11probably written by, Dr Goebbels?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is one of the two most important articles he wrote.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say that; it was written and published, I think, on
1416th December?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     November.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, November?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     1941.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1941, as virulently anti-Semitic as anything that Hitler
19ever said?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Far more so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say that, do you?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Far more so.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say here on page 379 in the last paragraph, the
24complete paragraph, on the page: "Dieter Wisliceny, one
25of Eichmann's closest associates, would describe the
26Goebbels' article in Das Reiche", that is the one I

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 1have just mentioned, as a watershed in the Final Solution
 2of the Jewish problem". Then footnote 40 is a reference
 3to the Wisliceny Report, date November 18th 1946. That is
 4to be found on page 645. You go on in the text ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I also reference his interrogations I see.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The SS took it as a sign from above Adolf Eichmann would
 9admit in his unpublished memoirs it is quite possible that
10I got orders to direct this or that railroad to Riga", and
11I don't know where we go from there quite. Yes, I will
12read the whole paragraph. "On the last day of November,
13on the orders of the local SS Commander, Friedrich
14Jeckelm, 4,000 of Riga's unwanted Jews were trucked five
15miles down" -- the Germans called that Dinoberg, I think,
16did they not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Dunoberg, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- "a highway to Skiaturbe plundered and machine-gunned
19into two or three pits. According to one army colonel",
20this is Bruns, is it not----
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- who witnessed it, a trainload of Jews from Berlin,
23those expelled three days before, arrived in the midst
24of this aktion. Its passengers were taken straight out to
25the pits and shot. This happened", and here we go again,
26even has Hitler's hundreds of miles away, "Hitler", I

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 1emphasise, hundreds of miles away in the Wolf's Lair, "was
 2instructing Himmler that these Berlin Jews were not to be
 3liquidated. I am not going back to that hoary old
 4chestnut, you will be glad to hear, but I do want to take
 5you back to the beginning of this paragraph.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a remarkable paragraph for a Holocaust denier to
 7write, is it not?
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea, Mr Irving, and anyway I am not going to
 9answer your question. "Dieter Wisliceny, one
10of Eichmann's closest associates, would describe the
11Goebbels' article in Das Reich as a watershed in the Final
12Solution of the Jewish problem"?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where did he give that description?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     What, whether he actually used the word watershed?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You see that I reference his manuscript written in
18Bratislava or Presburg and I also reference the
19interrogations in the associated footnote.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But if you read what we find here in Professor Evans'
21report which is an English translation of some part of the
22Wisliceny report, what you immediately realize, you do not
23learn it from Mr Irving's books, you learn it
24from Professor Evans' report, what you immediately realize
25is that Dieter Wisliceny did not see the Reich article as
26a watershed. He saw the watershed as being an order from

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 1Adolf Hitler?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we have a look at the passage you are relying on,
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The which?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The passage of the Wisliceny report you are relying upon
 6in the Evans...
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One would have to go back now to ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I no longer trust your paraphrases, you see, Mr Rampton.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- where I was.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 340, I think.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. 345, sorry, my Lord. The passage -- I am
12not going to read it again, I have read it once already.
13Read what is said there. The German is at the bottom of
14the page, so if you are going to criticise Professor
15Evans' translation, say so now.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The English is a slightly vague translation. I am looking
17at the paragraph at the top of page 345, where he says
18this is just simply "reference in this connection also to
19the Goebbels-article" ----
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     --- "'The Jews are guilty'".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does the German say?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The German says: "In this connection, I draw attention
24also to the Goebbels-article 'The Jews are to blame' in an
25edition of the newspaper Das Reich" which is possibly a
26slightly more coherent way of translating it.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But he is talking about German propaganda, that is to say,
 2domestic propaganda, is he not?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     After 11th December when Hitler, perhaps rather stupidly,
 5declared war on the United States?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is talking about the Yellow Star and he is talking
 8about the article in Das Reich as examples. He then
 9said: "In this period of time, after the beginning of the
10war with the USA, I am convinced must fall the decision of
11Hitler which ordered the biological annihilation of
12European Jews". So how is it, if that is the piece you
13were referring to, that that gets converted into Dieter
14Wisliceny saying that the article by Goebbels in Das Reich
15was a watershed?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg to differ with you. I think that even this source
17bears me out. He said the words you omitted in your
18summary, he says: "The second wave of radicalization
19began" and the instance of this he gives is the
20publication of the article. This is what triggered off
21the off the second wave of radicalization. But you have
22also overlooked, and I am sorry I tripped you up on this
23when you referred to the Goebbels' Diaries, would you like
24to read out the reference for the passage that I gave
25you? You implied that it relies only on the Wisliceny

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