Irving’e karşı Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 189

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    In Himmler's diary on December 1st 1941, the
 1[German], Jewish question, and [German] "in Riga", which
 2[German], economic businesses, small shops, something like
 3that, in Riga, which fits rather in with Bruns'
 4description, in my view, that these executions were
 5causing problems in the local economy because they were
 6running out of manpower, but that is a possible
 7interpretation of that.
 8     But, obviously, there was a certain amount of
 9toing and froing from the very highest level down through
10these channels down to this very low level SS Officer who
11claims he received a Fuhrer order, if I may go into that,
12when the army Colonel came to see him and said, "What on
13earth is going on here?" and this very junior SS Officer
14said, "Oh, it is the Fuhrer's orders" which frequently was
15said. Frequently people claimed they were Fuhrer's
16orders. We know, however, from our other sources (which
17are much superior sources) that the Fuhrer's orders were
18distinctly very different in this case [German] "No
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      But Bruns says that Altemeyer showed him the
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I do not attach too much importance to that, my Lord
23 MR RAMPTON:      Well, in considering all the other trappings of
24verisimilitude that this ---
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought you might mention that, actually
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course I might mention it. It is obvious, is it not

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the problem we have with that, Mr Rampton, is how
 2do you reconcile in with the kind of [German] in Himmler's
 3own notes what Hitler told him, Jew transport, no
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have never shown us any evidence, shall I say, or any
 6of your readers that Himmler [German] came from Hitler
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is coming from Hitler's bunker, from a phone booth in
 8Hitler's bunker, just as if I made a phone call from that
 9phone booth outside
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But as I think you have accepted on your web site an hour
11before Himmler met Hitler
12 A. [Mr Irving]     But he was in and out all day. When you visited Hitler in
13his headquarters, you would have lunch with him, you would
14have tea with him, you would be in and out of Hitler's
15bunker all day
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The entry in his log for that day -- it is not a diary,
17except in the most primitive sense -- in Himmler's log,
18the only entry referring to Hitler is, I think, 1430,
19[German] or something along those ---
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I agree entirely with what you say, Mr Rampton, but
21I have to say that if he drives over to Hitler's
22headquarters and, for whatever reason, finds it necessary
23suddenly to telephone Heydrich and say, "That transport of
24Jews from Berlin is not to be liquidated", it is a very
25reasonable interpretation indeed to say this is not
26unconnected with the fact that he is speaking from

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 1Hitler's bunker. And it would be perverse not to accept
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, bear with me. I do wish that one could insert
 4the word "objective" into every answer you give. It is a
 5possibly, certainly, that Himmler spoke to Hitler before
 6he made that telephone call. That is quite different, is
 7it not, from an assertion that the telephone call was made
 8on Hitler's orders
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, I agree
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you have asserted the latter, have you not
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree, it is a judgment call, and it is a judgment call
12which -- may I speak? It is a judgment which, in my
13submission, is entirely justified. If Himmler drives over
14to Hitler's bunker in the train, [German] makes a few
15phone calls and then [German], from the bunker, from
16Hitler's Wolf's Lair bunker, he makes a phone call to
17Heydrich saying, "That train load of Jews is not to be
18liquidated", it would take a very perverse and obtuse
19person indeed to say there is no connection between the
20two facts
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     May I suggest that what an objective, reputable historian
22who was not punting a particular line to exonerate Adolf
23Hitler might have written would be something like this:
24The evidence is that Himmler saw Hitler about an hour
25after he made that telephone call. There is no direct
26evidence that Himmler spoke to Hitler before he made the

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 1telephone call. It is possible that that telephone call
 2was made at Hitler's instigation
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Why did he make the phone call from Hitler's bunker then
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because he happened to be there for heavens sake
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Why did he not make the phone call from his own
 8headquarters? I do not want to say that I am less obtuse
 9than you, but I am beginning to suspect it in this
10matter. It is not a question of reputable or not. It is
11a question of seeing a logical solution written in six
12inch letters in front of your own face
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      My impression, I think it is relevant on this
15topic, from your book Hitler's War is that at this time
16Himmler was seeing Hitler almost more often than anybody
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Very frequently as we know now from his diary and
19telephone log, but you will appreciate that particular
20episode because it is a pivotal episode has now gone
21through three or four different chameleon like changes
22with very subtle refinements and a word knocked out here
23which cannot be justified and so on, as happens. One is
24constantly revising history. This does not mean to say
25one is manipulating or is in any way trying to exonerate.
26You are trying to get closer and closer and closer to the

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 1likelihood of what actually happened
 2 MR RAMPTON:      Mr Irving, tell me plainly, we are off course
 3again but it does not matter, we will get back on course
 4in a moment, tell me plainly what is the evidence for
 5this, this is in the 1991 edition ---
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Right
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you have repeated it since. I think you repeat it in
 8the appendices or the footnotes to Goebbels, these words:
 9"On 30th November he, Himmler, was summoned to the Wolf's
10lair", pause there. Sorry, page 427
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking at my Himmler diary because I know what you
12are going to say next
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I expect you know it off by heart
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am sorry
15 MR RAMPTON:      It is D1 (v). It is Hitler's War second volume,
161991 edition
17 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the evidence for ---
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Wait a minute. I am waiting until his Lordship has the
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
21 A. [Mr Irving]     What page of Hitler's War is it? This is the new
23 MR RAMPTON:      Now you can help me with some German perhaps in a
24moment. It is the new edition. It is changed from the
251977 edition in that you have conceded that the Himmler
26order concerned but a single train load of Jews

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