Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 31: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 33
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think that is sensible, but beyond
2that I do not think I can really give you much guidance.
3If you were able to hand in what you were proposing to say
4in time for me to look at it, then if there is anything
5I think that is for one reason or another objectionable,
6or indeed Mr Rampton does, then you can be told and you
7can make submissions if you want to why you should be
8allowed to say it.
9 MR IRVING: I think I have a very astute feel for the way the
10court is feeling in this matter and, having got it off my
11chest, if I can put it like that, I will limit what
12I actually say to the matters which I consider to be of
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. What is at the heart of it, obviously,
15are criticisms that are listed in section 5.
16 MR IRVING: Well...
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 1 through, well, to the end.
18 MR IRVING: The problem that I had, of course, is that not
19having been able to cross-examine the Defendants in this
20matter which would have brought forward the links which
21I am sure are there, this was the material which was
22assembled with that in mind. They have avoided that
23difficulty by not presenting their witnesses for
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I understand how you feel about that.
26 MR IRVING: And I wanted, nonetheless, to put it before your
1Lordship. I also put a certain amount of explanatory
2material in the footnotes which I was not proposing to
3read out, purely to point your Lordship to where the
4documents are so as far as I know they are in the bundles
5or were they are in the daily transcripts.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, good. Well, then that is ...
7 MR RAMPTON: There is only one other thing I need to do, I am
8sorry, it is to hand in a list of corrections -- they are
9mostly typographical errors and missing references -- for
10our long submission, if I may do that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. It is for you to make such oral
12submissions as you wish.
13 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you going to make any oral submissions?
15 MR RAMPTON: I am, tomorrow, yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tomorrow, right.
17 MR IRVING: I do not know whether this is the right point to
18your Lordship's attention to the fact that I am
19challenging now the Muller document, purely on the basis
20that it has not been provided to me in the way that your
21Lordship ordered the August 1st 1941 document, and this
22might be the place with which to deal with that. I
23have dealt with it in the submission that I handed in this
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you will have to direct me to where it
26comes because, obviously, I have not read it.
1 MR IRVING: I have not got it with me, my Lord, but, basically,
2the document was supplied to me on the weekend. It does
3not advance our knowledge as to the original document or
4the original file. There are no surrounding documents
5provided with it. I have not been able to make any more
6detailed researches into the nature of the document. So
7I have made a submission in the document I have handed
8your Lordship, both on the admissibility of that letter
9and, if your Lordship is minded to admit the letter in
10evidence, nonetheless, also on the content of the letter.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, this is all a bit opaque to me. Are
12you able to point to where you deal with this in your
13revised closing statement? I simply do not know my way
14around it all because I have only seen it within the last
15couple of minutes.
16 MR IRVING: It was finished at 5 o'clock this morning.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can understand that. Even so, if I am
18going to make sense of what you are telling me about the
19Muller document, I need to have the references, do I not?
20 MR IRVING: I shall have to hold that over then, my Lord, until
22 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I simply do not understand this. I have
23never understood, apart from the fact that he does not
24like its contents, what Mr Irving's problem with this
25document has been. We have many documents in the file
26which are original Nazi documents headed "Abschrift" by
1the person who made the copy because that is what they
2are. They are copies of original documents that have
3disappeared, but they are contemporaneous copies.
4 We now have have three copies of this document,
5one from Moscow which is where the original copy is held
6in the archive. That is the one that looks like that. It
7has a front cover that looks like that. Your Lordship has
8had all these, I think?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not remember that front cover. Can you
10give me the reference? I am bound to say I have found it
11in trying to prepare my judgment, extraordinarily
12difficult because of the way in which the documents have
13been got together, but if you can give me the reference to
15 MR RAMPTON: It is in N1. I have not got N1 here,
16unfortunately, but its date is 1st August so I can very
17quickly find it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 49?
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes. Page 49. I do not have it here, I am
20afraid, but the 49, the actual copy of which we now have
21three copies is at page 51.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am just reminding myself of what the
23points were that Mr Irving took and he will tell me if
24there are any others. Firstly, it is an Abschrift;
25secondly, it has a rather security classification given
26its contents, just "Geheim".
1 MR RAMPTON: There are plenty of those.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And also Mr Irving, I think, said that he had
3been told by the German Federal archives that the document
4is not to be found in the file from which it purports to
6 MR RAMPTON: Well, the explanation for that, I know not. As
7I said, my speculation is that it is just a reference to
8the wrong file. What I do now know, and Mr Irving knows
9and your Lordship knows, is that the original document,
10the original Abschrift, is held in Moscow. A copy of that
11has been sent to us from Moscow, sent to Dr Longerich.
12There is another copy at the prosecution centre at
13Ludwigburg, that we also have. There is another copy in
14the archive in Munich, that we also have.
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, the problem I have with the document is it
16is very analogous to the Schlegelberger document. The
17Defendants were able, in my view, unsuccessfully to attack
18the Schlegelberger document on the basis of the other
19documents in the same file. We have been shown just this
20one document. I am not able to attack it on the basis of
21other documents in the same file because, firstly, I was
22given the wrong file number and the Bundesarchiv told me,
23"This is the wrong file number".
24 Secondly, we have once again only been shown
25exactly the same copy which appears to be a copy which has
26been recopied for various other archives inside Germany.
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