Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 176 - 180 of 183
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1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] All the evidence I have by Michael Schmidt, and especially
2Michael Schmidt who was there at the time and in his book
3and four days long, you know, whole videos of that, this
4is a short version we saw, I would say that in my overall
5cautious judgment I cannot say yes to your implication.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Since we are talking about this demonstration, I had
7£2,000 worth of books on the book table at that function.
8Would I have left them unattended with 800 people in the
9hall in order to join a demonstration?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You joined this going, and all the sources I had says,
11including Althans, that this was going to the
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you read my diary covering that particular episode?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I read.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you read the police statements that were taken
16describing what had happened in the file which was made
17available by discovery?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You know, I think I did it also in the report, I read this
19and I came to the conclusion that there are more reasons
20for the case I state that you joined for a given period of
21time this march.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] You think I would have just left £2,000 worth of books
23unattended on a book table in a beer hall with 800
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. There are other possibilities to take care
26and maybe you did and you joined. I do not know.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you remember the police statements that were made at
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I read the things that are of interest all around this
5 Q. [Mr Irving] But my question was, do you remember the police statements
6that were made covering this particular event, the
7demonstration and the reason that I was taken in and so
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think I recall, but help me.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Well, if you have not read them there is not much
11point in my putting it to you.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think I had.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware that Michael Schmidt who took the videos and
14on whom you rely is a paid police informer?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, are you aware that this emerges from the police
17dossier which is in my files which were provided by way of
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Michael Schmidt was not a police informer.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Where did the police obtain the video from on the basis of
21which they prosecuted me?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] But I have no evidence that he sided police functions, no
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read in the police dossier the words, "Michael
25Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video
26which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is a different, this a different, you know, what is
2it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or
3whatever integrated in this secret or police system.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that
5in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it
6was stated in writing that I would not talk about the
7Holocaust in any of my talks?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have
9had reasons. I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be,
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the
13other is that you may depart from it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the
15German climate, that even though neither of us intended,
16neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it
17would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we
18wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was
19not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it
20was fixed every time in writing between us?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] So we could not be tricked.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems the case.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability,
25your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the
26more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence
1as you have read it?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are all agreed. It was a
5precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and
6indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted.
7 MR IRVING: It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can
8I add another question as rider? Have you seen any
9reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU
10meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving
13with respect to the other activities you took at that
14period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to
15quote, "Hitler and Jews" thing. So this made him
16concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving,
17so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak
18freely in Germany and he lost.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it
20is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in
21my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that,
22that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or
23Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned
24me to speak at?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I recall not, no.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did
1not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other
4circumstances very different.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph
63.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a
7main speaker for the DVU?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was
10speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that
11I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were a star speaker used by the political party for
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same
15paragraph, an agitator?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Because of that.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning,
18"The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against
19foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence"?
20Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you
21just throw these things in there?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you
23did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe
24this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the
25law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself
26is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their
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