Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 159
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1 MR IRVING: I can do that now, my Lord. Quite simply, we
2started posting the digital transcript on the internet as
3a public service, totally non-profit making at all,
4I derive only loss from that. The court reporters quite
5rightly said there is a property question at issue here.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, a copyright question, yes.
7 MR IRVING: It is between one instructing firm of solicitors
8and the court reporters. It is in a kind of limbo between
9them. I have made a cash offer to them over a week ago
10now on a per day basis. They have not come back to me,
11and I am being disadvantaged.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR IRVING: Because clearly ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I understand the problem, although
15I suspect one may have to go into it a bit more deeply,
16but I am anxious if you are not getting the digital
17transcript because, although it is not all that easy to
18follow, I found it perfectly possible to make use of.
19Mr Rampton, do you know anything about this or do you not
20want to get involved?
21 MR RAMPTON: No. Strictly speaking, it is none of our
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Except you are paying for it so, presumably,
24you have some sort of right over it.
25 MR RAMPTON: I know we are paying for Mr Irving to have a
26transcript for the purposes of the case, the conduct of
1his claim against us. I guess what has happened is that
2he has been using the transcripts, in all innocence, no
3doubt -- I say that without knowing anything -- for some
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, just putting them on his website.
6 MR RAMPTON: That is an infringement of the transcribers'
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would have thought it might be.
9 MR RAMPTON: And to do that, you would need to pay for a
10licence to do it, I guess what has happened.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, so we do not take too long over
12this, my view would be that it is highly desirable that
13you should continue to have the digital transcript and
14I do not understand Mr Rampton to oppose that, but the
15price may be, if that is the right term, that you should
16not put it on your website because I think, technically,
17that is an infringement of their copyright.
18 MR IRVING: Until we reach an agreement.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I mean, if you can reach an agreement, well
20and good, and I can see in some ways it might be desirable
21that it should go on the website if you want publicity
23 MR IRVING: Well, it has attracted great attention and I am now
24being bombarded with E mails from around the world. Some
25people are accusing me of keeping it off the internet
26because it is unfavourable to me and all sorts of dubious
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if you were to offer to -- I cannot
3remember the name of the firm but if you were to
5 MR IRVING: Harry Counsel.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Harry Counsel, that you will undertake
7not to put it on your website, unless and until some
8agreement is reached, but would they please in the
9meantime let you have the digital transcript, I would hope
10that they would say yes to that.
11 MR IRVING: I am happy to give that undertaking here.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If there is a problem, let me know, but
13I have expressed my wish and that may not count for much
15 MR IRVING: But it means that for three weeks I have had no
16digital transcript which has ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you should have mentioned it perhaps
18before now but you have mentioned it now and ----
19 MR IRVING: Well, I have negotiated, or attempted to negotiate,
20and met with no response.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Is there any way of avoiding you having
22to go all the way to Duke Street? Is there somebody there
23who could put it in a taxi?
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, my partner is seriously ill. She is
25fighting a battle of her own.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you say it is necessary, Mr Irving, I am
2 MR IRVING: I will try to be back within half an hour, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let a message be passed through when you are
5 MR IRVING: Yes, thank you very much.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are happy to continue in principle?
7 MR IRVING: Yes. There is no problem.
8 (Adjourned for a short time)
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, it seems I have added to the
10delay. My room is about as far as it can be from this
12 MR IRVING: The apologies are do you from me for this one hour
13delay. I do apologise.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Before I start, could I make some statements. I just went
15through the minutes of the proceedings of Thursday and
16I would like to correct three mistakes I make, if it is
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I have spotted one.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There is one on page 63, line 10, when Mr Irving suggested
20I translate the German term "verhungern" with go hungry.
21I think I did not listen carefully enough to him because
22the translation of "verhungern" is clearly to die of
23starvation or to starve to death so, if somebody is
24Verhungerte, he is dead.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you did actually say that. That is
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I just wanted to make it very clear. On page 13 and the
2following pages we had a discussion on the statistics
3about the death rates in Auschwitz. I forgot to say the
4most obvious thing -- because I was surprised by this
5document, I have to say -- that these figures all relate
6to the camp population as a whole and not to the Jewish
7camp population, and you would come to complete different
8conclusions if you look at the Jewish camp population.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which page is that?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Page 13 and the following pages.
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I do not see quite where we get to the statistics on the
12pages following page 13.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We talked about the statistics and I should have said here
14first of all that these numbers are about the camp
15population, everybody in the camps, and it is not specific
16about the Jewish prisoners in the camp.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I follow that, but I cannot find where there is any
18reference to numbers.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. We talked about the monthly death rates in the
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I remember that, but that is not here.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I may be mistaken.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] It is page 18.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am sorry. The third point is on page 173 Mr Irving said
25he wanted to translate bei Freilassung with "upon release"
26and I said bei Freilassung means "if released". I should
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