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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 159

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    I am sorry. The third point is on page 173 Mr Irving said
 1have added here that "upon release" is nach Freilassung in
 2German, "after".
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be one way of putting it, would it
 4not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Pardon?
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Bei Freilassung could be perhaps regarded as a little
 7equivocal, could it not?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Bei Freilassung is, in my view, "if released".
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     "Upon release" might be another translation?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "Upon release," but it is definitely not "after".
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you. That is very helpful. The slip which
12I thought you may have made, and I do not have the
13reference for it, is that I think you may have referred to
14Auschwitz when you meant Belzec, but I will not waste time
15trying to find that. It is at the foot of one of the
16pages. It is not terribly important, but I think the
17context makes it clear that you were talking about
18Belzec.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have checked four of my dictionaries on
20"verhungern" and I am ready to concede the primary
21meaning is "die of hunger". The secondary meaning is "to
22starve". I am ready to concede that point.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     Dr Longerich, you have now received the complete
25translation of the Karl Wolff manuscript, the interview
26with Karl Wolff. Have you received the German text

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 1already?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Where is your translation?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you received the German text?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I received the German text on Thursday.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have not received the English translation which has
 6been prepared of it yet?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. This is the first time I see that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you questions on the German text? Would you
 9agree that the brief extract which I made some 35 years
10ago accurately represents the parts that I extracted, if
11I can put it like that? There was no distortion by me of
12the extracts that I made?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Except the parts you left out in your extract.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Obviously, if it is a one page exhibit extract from a ten
15page document, then some eight or nine pages have been
16left out, have they not?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think you left out passages which are important, which
18have to be understood in the context of the whole
19document.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     And I also was surprised or amazed to see that you, in
22your translation, in your transcript, translated the word
23"ausrottung" with "extermination".
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts is that? I have the English and
26I am not sure you have the English.

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 1 MR IRVING:     That would be on page 1 of the original transcript,
 2my Lord. It is page 00031. If you turn the page, my
 3Lord, it is on line 5. As Dr Longerich rightly says,
 4I have translated it there by the word "extermination".
 5I have put the German text in brackets afterwards on line
 65.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we can be looking at the same
 8document. I am looking at your translation and I have
 9page 31. You say line 5? That talks about the Waffen SS
10arising as a new guard.
11 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. Page 31 follows. If you will turn
12the page, my Lord, it will be five lines down on the next
13page.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. I have it now.
15 MR IRVING:     Dr Longerich correctly points out that I have
16translated the word "Judenausrottung" by "extermination of
17the Jews".
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:     Yet it is clear from the context, is it not,
20Dr Longerich, that this is what Karl Wolff is referring to
21on this occasion?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I have lined on your copy the passages on which
24I rely. It begins on the previous page three lines from
25the bottom, "The assassination of Heydrich at the end of
26May 1942 had an exceptionally powerful effect on Himmler",

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 1and it carries on for the next two pages, until the page
 2that is headed with the word "preparations"?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am not sure, my Lord, what is the right way to
 5deal with that, whether I should put this to the witness?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, if you can select the main points
 7out of it -- do not let us trawl through the whole of it
 8unless we need to -- if you can put it as bald
 9propositions, then we can pursue it if needs be.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. Would you start, Dr Longerich, with the page
11that begins with the words "and declared", the third or
12fourth of my translation?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In the English.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is talking about Himmler. "He had always regarded it
16as his task and as his duty to carry out the solution of
17this task". Wolff continues with the proposition that,
18from his viewpoint of 1952, perhaps 70 people were
19initiated in the ghastly secret, if I can put it like
20that. Have you any comment on that figure?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is definitely too low.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Too low a figure?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because the people at the killing centres must have
25known? Is that what you are saying? Not just the camp
26guards but also the people in all the killing centres?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     He is referring to the people who were involved in the
 2Juden ausrottung.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If you have read the manuscript, you will see that
 4Karl Wolff suggests that the real guilty culprits were
 5Bormann and Himmler who kept to themselves what they were
 6doing. Have you any comment on that proposition?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the statement is so far clearly self-serving
 8because Karl Wolff was the liaison officer between the
 9Himmler and Hitler, and of course he wanted to, well, play
10down, put it this way, the role of Hitler, because
11otherwise he would be the missing link between the two
12persons. He would be the man between them, the man who
13carried messages and would transfer information between
14these two people. Karl Wolff was sentenced in 1965 by the
15German court to 15 years' sentence. Simply the main
16document, which actually, if I may put it this way, broke
17his neck, was his exchange of letters with Ganzen Muller
18in July and August of 1942, which is on pages 262 and 263
19in the blue bundle.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is 5,000 members of the chosen race being deported?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. So this was his main problem, that somebody could
22come and find out that he actually was involved in
23transferring messages from Hitler's headquarters through
24the apparatus which carried out the Final Solution.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could he not equally well have said that obviously Hitler
26knew what was going on but he discussed that only unter

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