Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 212 of 212
1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 24th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-FIVE
1 <Day 25.
3 < DR LONGERICH, recalled.
4< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving?
6 MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, you requested
7yesterday that I should state my position on the
8Einsatzgruppen and I place before your Lordship a two-page
9summary of my position. I do not know whether your
10Lordship wishes to address it now? I gave a copy to
11Mr Rampton. If Mr Rampton wishes to address it now, then
12I would be perfectly happy to discuss with him.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is sensible to have a look at it
14now because it just could affect some of the
15cross-examination later today. (Pause for reading) I am
16bound to say that I think that differs very, very
17substantially from the position that you seem to have
18adopted in your cross-examination by Mr Rampton.
19 MR IRVING: Does it? In which respect?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to me that this is a rather partial
21acknowledgment of Hitler's knowledge and therefore
22responsibility for what went on in the Eastern
24 MR IRVING: Of course I did not mention the October 1943
25watershed, that is true.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about that because you accepted
1everything, as it were, after that. Mr Rampton?
2 MR RAMPTON: I regard it as a fairly enormous step backwards.
3However, it does not trouble me in the very slightest,
4I have to say, because by a combination of the actual
5evidence of what was happening at the time and what
6Mr Irving said when first confronted with it, I am quite
7happy to leave that matter to be made by way of submission
8at the end of the case.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right and it seemed to me
10that, when you were saying you might have to recall
11Browning and so on, I do not think that is right.
12 MR RAMPTON: No, it was off the cuff and it was not meant
13interrorem, but it was a thought that occurred to me.
14I think actually, having regard to this, that this is so
15inconsistent, in my submission, with what was first said
16in cross-examination, that I am happy to leave it like
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a matter for comment later on.
19Mr Irving, that must be right. To the extent that there
20is a difference between the position you took in
21cross-examination and this document, then Mr Rampton
22obviously must be entitled to make whatever comment he
24 MR IRVING: Or indeed to cross-examine me further on that
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may want to do that, I do not know.
1Probably not I guess. Anyway, I have that now. Again
2I think it is sensible to try to work out where it should
3go. I think probably it goes in -- this is really for the
4transcript so that everybody knows where it is --
5 MR IRVING: L, was it not?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking more, because in a way it is
7statement of your case, I wonder whether it belongs in C
8or, indeed, in the pleadings. I think that is right. I
9will tuck it behind your defence in bundle A.
10 MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much for doing that anyway.
12When I say "defence", I mean, of course, reply, tab 4.
13Yes. Is there anything else before you resume?
14 MR IRVING: No, I can begin cross-examination.
15 < Dr Peter Longerich, Recalled
16< Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, good morning.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Good morning.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] We touched yesterday briefly on the existence in the
20Institut fur Zeitgeschichte of manuscripts written by Karl
21Wolff. You said that it was of a confidential nature and
22that it was not open for general research. I stated that
23in my discovery there had been extracts or a transcript of
24part of that. Can I ask you to look at the little bundle
25I just gave you? My Lord, this is on page 14 of the
26little bundle which is in sections.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this a manuscript? Manuscript, Karl
2Wolff, I see.
3 MR IRVING: Yes. If you go to page 16, which is the last page
4in that little clip, you will see a handwritten version of
5it. That is the original German. Page 14 is the original
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] May I ask, is this your transcript?
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, that is my handwriting.
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] So I have to rely on Mr Irving's summary?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, extracts.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have to say I am not happy with that because, as we
12experienced yesterday, Mr Irving tends to shorten
13documents and I do not agree with him on the principles in
14the way he shortens documents. I am not very happy to
15comment on his transcripts or excerpts from documents.
16I would like to see the original.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] If you look at line 6, you will see that I have put three
18dots, and line 7 I have three dots.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but I have not seen the original, so I cannot ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You stated, of course, that you were not permitted to see
21the original because it was a confidential document.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. Still I would like to see the original.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the problem is. Where is
24the original, Mr Irving?
25 MR IRVING: It is in the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: To which Mr Irving does not have access.
1I take your point entirely, Dr Longerich, but shall we
2just see what the question is and see whether you can
3cope. If you do not feel you can ----
4 MR IRVING: My position would be of course, my Lord, that this
5was the document that was before me when I was writing my
6book, this handwritten extract.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] But you were allowed to make photocopies from the
8document. I would really prefer to see a photocopy instead
9of your handwritten notes on the document.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have a photocopy, Mr Irving?
11 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I was not allowed to make photocopies
12on this particular one.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Proceed fairly cautiously. What is the
15 MR IRVING: If you will now look at the translation, which is
16on page 10, this is an explanation, is it not? It is an
17extract, first of all, from a confidential manuscript by
18Karl Wolff dated May 11th 1952, and he is referring to the
19effect on Himmler of the assassination of Heydrich. In
20the second paragraph Wolff expresses the rather
21extraordinary view that perhaps 70 men all told from
22Himmler to Hoess were involved in the extermination of the
23Jews. Then there is something which I put in quotation
24marks. The inference is that it is actually words from
25the document: "Bormann and Himmler probably represented
26the view that the Jewish problem had to be dealt with
1without Hitler getting his fingers dirty on it."
2 Then the next paragraph says: "After the mass
3epidemic at Auschwitz, the idea of deliberate mass deaths
4probably occurred. Himmler was in his way bizarre and
5religious and held to the view that for the greatest war
6Lord and the greatest war of all times he had take upon
7himself tasks which had to be solved to put Hitler's ideas
8into effect without engaging him", that is Hitler
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to
11interrupt you now. This is, it seems to me, of fairly
12central potential importance.
13 MR IRVING: In two ways, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know what it was going to say. It
15is wholly unsatisfactory, is it not, to have your
16manuscript rendition, if that is the right word, of parts
17of this document? Is there an insuperable problem about
18getting hold of a photocopy of it?
19 MR IRVING: I will ask the Institute if they will provide me
20with a photocopy.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or even the Defendants might get a more
22helpful reaction to a request for a photocopy of this
24 MR RAMPTON: We might, but I have to say this is a note of
25something that Karl Wolff, a high ranking SS officer close
26to Himmler and Hitler, said in 1952.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is potentially self-exculpatory, I can see
3 MR RAMPTON: That is a comment that I would make about it. The
4reason I say that now is that I do not know that I believe
5that it is worth, frankly, our time and trouble going to
6get the original from Munich.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Can I make a comment here, or a question?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please do.
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is your interview with Karl Wolff?
10 MR IRVING: Good Lord, no.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] You referred yesterday to a confidential manuscript by
12Karl Wolff. This is not a part of the confidential
13manuscript. This is part of the collection of testimonies
14collected by the Institute in the 1950s. You can
15recognize it by these reference numbers shown in German.
16It is an open class. I think, if you phone the Institute,
17you can get a photocopy within three hours or so.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I would have thought.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is open class. There is no need to rely on handwritten
20excerpts, anything of this kind.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] You see, I am a bit unhappy, I will be frank, Mr Irving,
22that there are dots immediately before and immediately
23after the passage that you rely on.
24 MR IRVING: Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is satisfactory and
26I think the witness is entitled to take the position,
1"I am not prepared to comment unless I have the entire
2document in front of me". Whether it has any weight or
3not is another matter.
4 MR IRVING: The only weight that it might possibly have is of
5course that I relied heavily on my extracts from the Wolff
6manuscript in writing my books.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is not the Wolff manuscript.
8 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will recognise passages from this
9manuscript as they are represented and summarized in the
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My response to that is whether an objective
12historian could and should have placed weight on this
13document must depend on the whole terms of it, not just on
15 MR IRVING: Of course I saw the whole document when I sat there
16making the extracts.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you did, but I think we need to see
18the whole document to see whether you should have attached
19the weight you say you did attach to it.
20 MR IRVING: I will try to obtain it, but of course I cannot
21obtain it today.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am wondering whether, if it really is a
23matter of three hours, and I do not see why it should not
24be, as Dr Longerich says, somebody could not perhaps even
25go and place a telephone call now.
26 MR RAMPTON: The best person to do that is the gentleman in the
1witness box. I may be speaking out of turn but I think he
2is the one that carries the clout so far as the Institute
3in Munich is concerned. It may be that one of my German
4researchers would be able to do it and see if we can get
5it before close of play today.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was hoping. I will leave it
7to you. I think I am going to ask you to leave this
8document and come back to it. We will come back to it
9anyway but come back to it if we get the proper document.
10 MR RAMPTON: I am told that they do not feel they can do it.
11Could I have permission to speak to Dr Longerich about it
12at the adjournment? Maybe he can make a telephone call at
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if it really cannot be done before then.
15 MR RAMPTON: I am told, I do not know reasons are, that it
16would be difficult for anybody but him to do it. Perhaps
17I could be a little unorthodox and ask him now?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, why not? Do you mind, Mr Irving? It is
19a bit unorthodox.
20 MR RAMPTON: Could you make a telephone call at lunch time?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you give me a phone.
22 MR RAMPTON: We will give you a phone.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, sir.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] (After a pause) Sorry, is this a break?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is not. Mr Irving, carry on.
1 MR IRVING: While you still have that bundle in front of you --
2my Lord, this is just by way of putting documents in --
3page 1 is a German document which is a conference dated
4August 6th 1942, on the face of it. Right? It is from an
5American microfilm T 501 which is the records of the
6military government, the generalgouvernenent. Is it a
7record of the conference of 6th August 1942, Dr Longerich?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Again, I have to say I got this document five minutes ago
9and I should really have the time to read it.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us read it together. I am sure we will
11be able to manage.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am just really going to pay attention to
13the title of the document and in the most general terms.
14Is this a document relating to increasing air raid
15precaution measurements in the government general?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The translation is guidelines for the building up of air
17raid defence in the area of the command of the military
18force in the generalgouvernement. That is the title.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] The remaining four pages just give guidelines for how to
20do this, to build air raid shelters because of the
21increased danger of British air attacks?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It does not say British air attacks. I think it could
23also refer to Soviet or American attacks but I just trust
24you that this is the case.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so that I understand the relevance, this
26is back to Auschwitz?
1 MR IRVING: Back to Auschwitz, my Lord, yes, crematorium No.
2(ii). The next document I want you to look at briefly is
3on page 5. First of all, I draw your attention to the SS
4runes on the first line under be Abschrift. Do you have
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] You see the SS runes after Reichsfuhrer SS?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] So this is probably a genuine wartime document? I have to
10put it like that.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Probably.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with this document, signed by the chief
13of the concentration camp system, Pohl?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot recall the document. I am really curious to know
15from which archive the document is. I also have to say
16I did not have the time to read the document. So would
17you say where this document is from, from which archive
18you have that?
19 Q. [Mr Irving] It has been provided to me by a lawyer in Dusseldorf who
20is heavily involved in wartime cases.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] So you cannot say from which archive.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] I will obtain it for the court.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is difficult for me to comment on the document if I do
24not know where the original is.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see that. Was this in your discovery,
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, no it was not.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought not. It is typical of last minute
3documents being provided to me by lawyers around the world
4and they know these things. If your Lordship has any
5objection, then I would not take it further.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. I think this document is
7rather different from your manuscript and I think we will
8proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is
10 MR IRVING: If you just look at the first page of this document
11and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all
12the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying:
13"It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with
14prisoners. We are losing them like flies. We need their
15manpower. Look after them better"?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations
17about this document. I do not know the context. I do not
18know the archive. But on the assumption that this is an
19authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of
20the concentration camps, and obviously the document is
21saying that they have to improve their measures to keep
22prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what
23happened in the camps before, I think.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says: "Not
25from any false sentimentality but because we need their
26arms and legs because those are helping the German people
1to get to a great victory. That is why we have got to
2start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. That is stated here in this document.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs,
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not have the time to read now.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings. That
8all we need, I think. Page 2 he is talking about the
9feeding. The following page, paragraph 2, is called
10"Clothing". Then down to the bottom of that page,
11"Natural Medications" or "Health" ----
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] --- "stuff".
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under
15"Clothing" it is stated here: "I decide that during the
16winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear
17coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea
18about the standards which actually existed in the
19concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it
20says, it says "as far as available", so it does not
21actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing".
22It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they
23are available and nothing more". So I think this gives
24you a kind of an idea of this.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary
26exertions". For example, these frequent parades were they
1were held standing for hours while they were counted
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] --- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on. In
5other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing
6policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to
7what I would call non-violent causes.
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is your interpretation, yes.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is yours?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme
11which they called "extermination through work". So they
12used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners.
13This was the practice before. Now, at October '43, it is
14not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and
15they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to
16improve in some sense the general conditions of the
17prisoners. But, of course, this is a document, I mean,
18this document is, of course, sent to the head of the
19concentration camps -- nothing to do with the
20extermination camps, for instance.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to ask you about that.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns
23the slave labours within the camp. It does not say
24anything about the people who were deported to the camp
25and selected in front of the camp.
26 If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in
1the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the
2condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943,
3I would not completely rely on this document. It would be
4completely unprofessional to rely on this one document.
5One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances.
6One has to look at the death rates. They had statistics
7on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on.
8You know, the problem with this kind of document is that
9if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit
10you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my
11order from last week". If you do not have the context, it
12is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an
13historian about the condition in this camp, and whether
14they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of
15extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far
16they still carried on with this policy.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you one question? You refer
18to the death rates and they were being reported, for
19example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Death rates of those in the camps?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] The inmates in the camps?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, exactly.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced
26around October 1943?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot -- I think I should not speculate.
2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No.
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer.
4 MR IRVING: You do actually because they are just in one of the
5other documents in the bundle, my Lord. We are coming to
6the death rates in a minute.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we? Good.
8 MR IRVING: Yes. Can I ask, if you have finished with your
9replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page
10No. 15? This is from the same kind of source, is it not,
11the administration of the concentration camp system, dated
12December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the
13camp doctors of the concentration camps. Let me tell you
14where this comes from. It comes from a book called "Macht
15Ohne Moral". It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript.
16It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it is, I think somebody ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Typed a copy?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- typed a copy, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the
22concentration camps, including Auschwitz. That is the
23fifth one. Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken
24and I can see there Mauthausen at the end. It is saying
25to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins
26by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here,
1"a list of the current editions and departures in all the
2concentration camps for your attention. From the latter,,
3you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have
4died". He goes on to say: "This is completely
5unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough
6and ready measures and they have to start making sure the
7prisoners survive". What would you make of that kind of
8document? Are there any other passages you want to read
9from that document or translate?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics
11that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000
12died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not
13able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level.
14I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the
15people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible
16to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the
17camp. This is nothing to do, of course, with
18extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz. It is what
19happens in the camp.
20 MR RAMPTON: Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich,
21not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that
22paragraph when he has read it?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make
24sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate
25in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the
26better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that
1through unresponsible, that he has to", well ----
2 MR IRVING: "Inappropriate callousness"?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "Inappropriate".
4 Q. [Mr Irving] "Harshness" or "hardness"?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "Harshness to, he has to..."
6 MR RAMPTON: Maybe the lady translator can do it.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. "Not he is the better physician or
8doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through
9inappropriate, that he has to stand out through
10inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who
11maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces
12through supervision and exchange on a level as high as
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what
15they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a
16certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours
17to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they
18have too many people died in a too short time, so they
19have to make sure they got supply from outside. This is,
20I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of
21prisoners", yes? It is not the duty of the doctors to,
22you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life
23-- alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ----
24 MR IRVING: Is this document declaring war on the callousness
25of the camp doctors?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the
1document reminded them to perform their duties as
2concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what
3their duties are.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, to keep them alive?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same
6number of prisoners in the camp, yes? So to make sure
7that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness
8of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and
9exchange of individual workers. So his responsibility is
10to care for the entire camp population, but not for the
11single worker. He has to make sure that the individual
12workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the
13camp is a kind of ----
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it,
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime
17responsibility of the doctor.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but he is part of this process.
21 MR IRVING: Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate
22the next sentence which is: "Camp doctors have more than
23hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and
24to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in
25conformity, with the administration of the camp
26commandants". Then further down that paragraph, does it
1not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler,
2"has ordered that the mortality rates are without
3question to be held down. They have got to be reduced".
4 So that is the overall tenor of this letter.
5The camp doctors are not doing their job properly. They
6have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of
7the prisoners. Himmler is getting angry because they are
8losing so much of their valuable slave labour through
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do you get Himmler from?
11 MR IRVING: The Reichsfuhrer SS. It is the last sentence but
12one, my Lord. The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The bottom line for me is: "The programme to exterminate
14prisoners for work is going too fast. We have to make
15sure we did not kill too many in a short time". I think
16this is the context of document.
17 MR IRVING: It is difficult at the last minute when documents
18are provided to me by lawyers around the world in doing
19these things. If your Lordship has any objection, then I
20would not take it further.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. I think this document is
22rather different from your manuscript and I think we will
23proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is
25 MR IRVING: If you just look at the first page of this document
26and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all
1the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying:
2"It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with
3prisoners. We are losing them like flies. We need their
4manpower. Look after them better"?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations
6about this document. I do not know the context. I do not
7know the archive. But on the assumption that this is an
8authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of
9the concentration camps, and obviously the document is
10saying that they have to improve their measures to keep
11prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what
12happened in the camps before, I think.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says: "Not
14from any false sentimentality but because we need their
15arms and legs because those are helping the German people
16to get to a great victory. That is why we have got to
17start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. That is stated here in this document.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs,
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not have the time to read now.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings. That
23all we need, I think. Page 2 he is talking about the
24feeding. The following page, paragraph 2, is called
25"Clothing". Then down to the bottom of that page,
26"Natural Medications" or "Health" ----
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] --- "stuff".
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under
4"Clothing" it is stated here: "I decide that during the
5winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear
6coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea
7about the standards which actually existed in the
8concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it
9says, it says "as far as available", so it does not
10actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing".
11It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they
12are available and nothing more". So I think this gives
13you a kind of an idea of this.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary
15exertions". For example, these frequent parades were they
16were held standing for hours while they were counted
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] --- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on. In
20other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing
21policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to
22what I would call non-violent causes.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is your interpretation, yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is yours?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme
26which they called "extermination through work". So they
1used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners.
2This was the practice before. Now, at October '43, it is
3not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and
4they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to
5improve in some sense the general conditions of the
6prisoners. But, of course, this is a document, I mean,
7this document is, of course, sent to the head of the
8concentration camps -- nothing to do with the
9extermination camps, for instance.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to ask you about that.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns
12the slave labours within the camp. It does not say
13anything about the people who were deported to the camp
14and selected in front of the camp.
15 If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in
16the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the
17condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943,
18I would not completely rely on this document. It would be
19completely unprofessional to rely on this one document.
20One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances.
21One has to look at the death rates. They had statistics
22on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on.
23You know, the problem with this kind of document is that
24if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit
25you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my
26order from last week". If you do not have the context, it
1is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an
2historian about the condition in this camp, and whether
3they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of
4extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far
5they still carried on with this policy.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you one question? You refer
7to the death rates and they were being reported, for
8example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Death rates of those in the camps?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] The inmates in the camps?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, exactly.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced
15around October 1943?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot -- I think I should not speculate.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer.
19 MR IRVING: You do actually because they are just in one of the
20other documents in the bundle, my Lord. We are coming to
21the death rates in a minute.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we? Good.
23 MR IRVING: Yes. Can I ask, if you have finished with your
24replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page
25No. 15? This is from the same kind of source, is it not,
26the administration of the concentration camp system, dated
1December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the
2camp doctors of the concentration camps. Let me tell you
3where this comes from. It comes from a book called "Macht
4Ohne Moral". It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript.
5It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it is, I think somebody ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Typed a copy?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- typed a copy, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the
11concentration camps, including Auschwitz. That is the
12fifth one. Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken
13and I can see there Mauthausen at the end. It is saying
14to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins
15by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here,
16"a list of the current editions and departures in all the
17concentration camps for your attention. From the latter,,
18you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have
19died". He goes on to say: "This is completely
20unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough
21and ready measures and they have to start making sure the
22prisoners survive". What would you make of that kind of
23document? Are there any other passages you want to read
24from that document or translate?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics
26that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000
1died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not
2able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level.
3I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the
4people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible
5to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the
6camp. This is nothing to do, of course, with
7extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz. It is what
8happens in the camp.
9 MR RAMPTON: Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich,
10not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that
11paragraph when he has read it?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make
13sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate
14in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the
15better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that
16through unresponsible, that he has to", well ----
17 MR IRVING: "Inappropriate callousness"?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "Inappropriate".
19 Q. [Mr Irving] "Harshness" or "hardness"?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "Harshness to, he has to..."
21 MR RAMPTON: Maybe the lady translator can do it.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. "Not he is the better physician or
23doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through
24inappropriate, that he has to stand out through
25inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who
26maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces
1through supervision and exchange on a level as high as
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what
4they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a
5certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours
6to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they
7have too many people died in a too short time, so they
8have to make sure they got supply from outside. This is,
9I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of
10prisoners", yes? It is not the duty of the doctors to,
11you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life
12-- alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ----
13 MR IRVING: Is this document declaring war on the callousness
14of the camp doctors?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the
16document reminded them to perform their duties as
17concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what
18their duties are.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, to keep them alive?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same
21number of prisoners in the camp, yes? So to make sure
22that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness
23of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and
24exchange of individual workers. So his responsibility is
25to care for the entire camp population, but not for the
26single worker. He has to make sure that the individual
1workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the
2camp is a kind of ----
3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it,
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime
6responsibility of the doctor.
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but he is part of this process.
10 MR IRVING: Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate
11the next sentence which is: "Camp doctors have more than
12hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and
13to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in
14conformity, with the administration of the camp
15commandants". Then further down that paragraph, does it
16not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler,
17"has ordered that the mortality rates are without
18question to be held down. They have got to be reduced".
19 So that is the overall tenor of this letter.
20The camp doctors are not doing their job properly. They
21have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of
22the prisoners. Himmler is getting angry because they are
23losing so much of their valuable slave labour through
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do you get Himmler from?
26 MR IRVING: The Reichsfuhrer SS. It is the last sentence but
1one, my Lord. The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The bottom line for me is "The programme to exterminate
3prisoners for work is going too fast. We have to make
4sure that we do not kill too many in a short timeframe.
5I think this is the context of the document".
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, it does not actually say that in the
7document, does it? That is the spin you have put on it.
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but again, you know, if you ask me as an expert and
9you just put one document in front of me, I have to say
10that you have to see it in the context of the history of
11the concentration camps, and it is not the prime
12responsibility -- this was not the prime responsibility of
13concentration camps doctors to look for the health and
14welfare of the prisoners. One has to say that, and you
16 Q. [Mr Irving] To your knowledge, was there a large camp hospital in
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I would not call it a hospital. It was a kamp
19baracken. So this is a place where sick prisoners, sick
20prisoners, were forced to go to the kamp baracken and, of
21course, there the main purpose of this so-called hospital
22was, of course, to select the prisoners not fit for work
23and to send them into the gas chambers. So the whole
24notion of a hospital, I think, is rather bizarre, as far
25as prisoners are concerned.
26 I have to say I am not really an expert for
1Auschwitz. We had an expert here and I think I cannot do
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think his answer was more or less the same
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I cannot actually -- I do not have more expertise,
6definitely not more expertise than he.
7 MR IRVING: I am not going to ask you questions about
8Auschwitz. This is about the entire concentration camp
9system or the extermination system, as you would describe
10it. Obviously, I do not want to flood the court with
11documents of this nature, but had you seen documents ----
12 MR RAMPTON: No, I am sorry. I do not believe that is what the
13witness has said. What the witness has said is that this
14concerns, to use Mr Irving's phrase, slave labour in the
15concentration camps which includes a whole lot of camps in
16Germany which have nothing to do with extermination. The
17witness has specifically said that these documents have
18nothing whatever to do with the extermination programme
19which took place at Birkenhau which is not mentioned in
20any of these documents or in the Reinhardt ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, undoubtedly, what the witness has
22been saying, none of this touches on the ones who were not
23selected for ----
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, it is remarkable the way the Defence
25sometimes says that Auschwitz covers both camps and
26sometimes they say it does not. That is all I would say
1there. Can we now look at the third document, please,
2which is the only other one I am going to trouble the
3court with on this particular matter, document No. 16,
4which is a four page document with tables dated September
530th 1943 from the same kind of man, is it not? It is
6signed actually by Pohl himself, chief of the camp system,
7and here he actually attaches statistics, does he not, for
8deaths just in one month, August, 1943? The third page is
9a table of death in August 1943.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Do I have chance to read the document? Give me, please,
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Take your time.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
14 MR IRVING: First of all, the covering letter is a bit
15triumphant, is it not? It says: "In consequence of the
16hygienic measures we have introduced, and the better
17feeding, the better clothing, the death rate has gone down
18in the camps".
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us just see, would you mind, would the
20translator very kindly translate the first paragraph just
21so we get the order of the mortality?
22 THE INTERPRETER: The first paragraph?
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you mind?
24 THE INTERPRETER: "Since during the month of December 1942
25mortality was still at -- whereas, in the month of
26December 1942 the mortality was still at around 10 per
1cent, it already was reduced in the month of January 1943
2to 8 per cent, and proceeded to go down further. This is
3mainly -- this reduction of the mortality is mainly
4attributed to the fact that the hygienic measures which
5had been asked for for sometime have now at least been
6implemented to a large extent. Moreover, in regarding the
7feeding, the nourishment, it was ordered that a third of
8the food should be added to, should be added just before
9the distribution of the meal in its raw state, to
10supplement the cooked food. It was avoided to kill the
11food by cooking it. In addition, sauerkrauts and similar
12food was distributed.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that will do. So they were 10
14per cent mortality.
15 MR IRVING: Horrendous mortality rates when you look at the
16figures, my Lord. That is 10 per cent per month.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are now very pleased with themselves
18because they have got the death rate in Auschwitz down to
1948,000 men in one month?
20 MR IRVING: No, it is not. That is the actual number. The
21first column is the number on hand, my Lord. The second
22column is the deaths that month, 1442.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I mean, you said this has a kind of triumphant, this
24letter has a kind of triumphant attitude, and the triumph
25here is that the death rate, the monthly date rate, is
26reduced from 10 per cent in December to 8 per cent in
1January. So this is the success of these measures. So 8
2per cent, eight people of 100 would die each month in the
3slave labour camps, nothing to do, of course, with the
5 Q. [Mr Irving] This is what you say, is it not, but we are just looking
6at figures in Auschwitz ----
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is absolutely ----
8 Q. [Mr Irving] --- of men and women?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- Auschwitz had two functions. It was a slave labour
10camp and it was an extermination camp, and this clearly
11relates to the -- clearly relates to the slave labour
13 Q. [Mr Irving] What are they dying of?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, as I am trying to say, in the slave labour camp they
15had a programme of extermination through work, and the
16life expectancy of a prisoner in the death, in the slave
17labour camp was a couple of weeks or probably a couple of
18months, and they died -- you can see actually see it from
19the document itself because the documents state, you know,
20what has to be improved. The food has to be improved
21because the conditions, the food conditions, are
22completely unsufficient. It says in the document, for
23instance, that prisoners are allowed to wear a coat
24outside during the winter. So this gives, I think, a very
25clear answer that prisoners in the camp would die because
26they do not have the efficient, they do not have
1sufficient clothing, and there are, of course, epidemics
2in the camp and, of course, there is a regular process of
3selection. The people unfit for work, the sick and the
4weak prisoners would be selected and sent to the gas
6 I think, if you read the document with a
7reference to actually the conditions in the camp, the
8conditions in, let us say, August 1943, you have a very
9good idea of what the conditions were. August '43, 1442
10people died, for instance, in the camp.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain what "durch mittel
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is the average number of prisoners.
14 MR IRVING: Average camp strength.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Average prison population?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
18 MR IRVING: So the five columns, my Lord, average prison
19population of each of those camps. The next column is the
20numbers of deaths which, in the case of Auschwitz and one
21or two of the other camps is being divided up as to men
22and women, separate figures. The next column is the
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the rest is clear.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. It is quite clear because the numbers here were
26separated because Auschwitz, the slave labour camps, was
1divided into a women's camp and into a men's camp, so this
2gives you an indication that this relates clearly to the
3slave labour camp and nothing to do with the extermination
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which camp would be meant by "Lublin"?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is the -- this is Maidonek, complex of camps really.
7 MR IRVING: If you go now to the next page after that
8statistical table, you have three pages showing a graph
9showing how over the three or four years, 1940 to 1943,
10the mortality has soared from various causes. There are
11quite visible peak. There is a big peak around about
12March 1943 which is on the second page.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain for our benefit what this
14covers? Is it all concentration camps?
15 MR IRVING: It is all the camps. I draw the witness's
16attention first to the third of three pages. It has a
17rubber stamp. The senior doctor on Pohl's staff. In
18other words, he is the head doctor or, I suppose, the
19surgeon general of the concentration camp system. It has
20Himmler's initials on this document on the third page.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Where is that? Which page?
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have the graphs?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] It will be the last page but one before the big yellow
25sheet. Do you see, it has a rubber stamp saying that,
26effectively, it is the surgeon general of the
1concentration camp system?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] On the right it has Heinrich Himmler's own initials, so it
4has been submitted to Himmler?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] And it is a graph showing, the bottom two curves are the
7percentage figures, the middle curve is a percentage
8figure, the bottom curve appears to be numbers of death
9per month and the upper curve appears to be a cumulative
10figure. But it is difficult to interpret, and I am not a
11statistician, all I am going to say is there are quite
12clear peaks. They have gone through crises. Would you
13accept that that is a fair statement?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There were differences in the monthly death rate, yes,
15I can see that.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] And the final page is the yellow page right at the end
17which is a contrast of the mortality rates in the
18concentration camps in the second half year of 1942
19compared with the second half year of 1943. Again you can
20see in August and September 1942 and in August and
21September 1943 they have gone through a serious crisis of
22some kind. There have been 11,000 deaths, 12,000 deaths,
23in the concentration camp system in corresponding August
24and September of both years. So I am only going to ask
25one or two general questions now from what you have seen.
26In other words, there was a very high mortality rate in
1these concentration camps?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, indeed.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] How did they dispose of the bodies?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I am actually not prepared to -- I mean, I am not
5prepared here to comment on the concentration camps, but,
6as far as I know, they burnt the bodies in crematoria.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] In crematoria, yes. If these deaths had been caused
8through epidemics, would that be an appropriate way of
9disposing of the bodies?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I think so.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you any indication as to what the major cause of
12deaths in Auschwitz was in 1942 or 1943?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not think I should guess at what I think. As far as
14I recall it, it was typhus, but I am not sure. I am not
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you even seen any references to this epidemic in the
17police decodes at the Public Record Office or in the
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen any references to the camp at Auschwitz
21being quarantined of what is called a lager spare?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot recall that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, that is the only questions I have to put on the
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that you are really putting
26what I suspect may be your case. Are you suggesting (and
1I am not sure this is the right witness anyway) that the
2crematoria were solely being used in order to burn the
3corpses of those who are shown on this graph to have died
5 MR IRVING: Let me put two or three more questions in that
6direction then, my Lord, to nail it down.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, because if that is your case, you must
8put it fair and square and it may be Dr Longerich will
9say, "Well, I am not the right person to ask".
10 MR IRVING: But he is not the right expert, yes. Dr Longerich,
11from your knowledge of the concentration camp system or
12its workings, who would have the job of disposing of the
13bodies in the crematoria? Would that be the
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think so, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] And would they remove all the gold and valuables from
17these bodies first?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it be a very grisly and memorable task?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I would suppose so, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not think really, my Lord, I can ask any further
22questions on that.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure, I am not really sure, I am also -- actually
24I am not prepared to go into details about the history of
25Auschwitz, and if this is a kind of, I do not know, I am
26not too sure about the sonderkommando here, and I should
1probably -- we had expert in Auschwitz and I should
2probably simply say I am not sure here.
3 MR RAMPTON: Can I make a suggestion? If these documents be
4thought important, and if it be Mr Irving's case (which,
5by implication, I suppose it must be, forget all the other
6camps mentioned in these documents as they are nothing to
7do with this case) that the reference to Auschwitz is a
8reference to Auschwitz Birkenhau, then I think maybe the
9right thing to do, I do not know what your Lordship
10thinks, this gentleman is not an expert on Auschwitz, is
11to send these documents to Professor van Pelt and get him
12to put something in writing as a supplement to his report
13by of commentary on these documents.
14 MR IRVING: Together with the appropriate part of the
16 MR RAMPTON: Yes, certainly.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first thing, though, is to get clear and,
18I mean, it is what I was trying to do, and I think
19Mr Rampton is also wishing for clarification, quite what
20you are making of these graphs. They are new and I have
21no doubt there are good explanations why they were not put
22to Professor van Pelt. But are you suggesting, just take
23Auschwitz because we have not gone into detail in the
24other camps, that the deaths that one infers were taking
25place at Auschwitz from these graphs were the reason why
26the crematoria were being employed in the way that various
1witnesses have described they were being employed?
2 MR IRVING: Let me put one more question then to the witness.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think the witness is really
4going to be very happy to answer. I am really asking you
5to tell me and tell the Defendants.
6 MR IRVING: In that case, if you look at the statistical table,
7my Lord, which is the third page, it would be page 18,
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, the yellow one?
10 MR IRVING: No, the table with columns. You see that in one
11month, August, 1943, there were 2400 deaths in Auschwitz
12from whatever cause, and for the argument I would accept
13it is Auschwitz and not Birkenhau, then that is 2400
14bodies that have to be disposed of in that 31 days
15period. It is 200 tonnes of bodies which is a memorable
16task for the sonderkommandos who had the wretched task of
17cremating them. The suggestion I am making is that it is
18not beyond the bounds of probability that this is what
19they are recalling when they see -- one question which
20I think van Pelt would have to answer, if this question
21was to put to him, is did the Auschwitz camp, as opposed
22to Birkenhau, have the cremation capacity for disposing of
23bodies on that scale at this time or would the bodies have
24been sent to Birkenhau to be disposed of?
25 MR RAMPTON: This is a terrible confusion in Mr Irving's mind,
26that the greater part of the workers, as opposed to what
1I might call the murderees, who were put into the labour
2section after selection were housed at Birkenhau.
3 MR IRVING: So this is Birkenhau then we are talking about?
4 MR RAMPTON: No, no. When one talks about the extermination
5facility at Auschwitz, one is talking mainly but not
6exclusively of the two bunkers and the four crematoria
7where the people went immediately after they got off the
8train. They never went into the work camp.
9 The work camp part housed the majority of the
10slave labour at Auschwitz Birkenhau. That has been
11clearly described by Professor van Pelt. We have seen the
12picture of the wire with the gate through it into the
13women's camp, and that is where the majority of those
14Auschwitz frauen would have been housed. That evidence is
15already in court.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have to be clear, you see, you did
17not really, I think, actually quite explain, Mr Irving,
18what it was that you were saying was not beyond the bounds
19of possibility. I think we must really be absolutely
20clear about this. Are you saying that it is not beyond
21the bounds of possibility that all the evidence that we
22have heard about bodies being burnt in the ----
23 MR IRVING: The eyewitness evidence.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- crematoria, whether at Birkenhau or at
25Auschwitz, was the burning of bodies of those who had died
1 MR IRVING: Of whom there are clearly a very large number.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but what is the answer to the question?
3 MR IRVING: The answer is yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again I think this is unsatisfactory for
5this witness, I really do, because ----
6 MR IRVING: Except, of course, that I do accept that there were
7gassings on a small scale in Auschwitz as well.
8 MR RAMPTON: This is most unsatisfactory because the evidence
9of Professor van Pelt is, whether it be right or wrong,
10which this witness may or may not know but he is not the
11right person to deal with it, the incineration capacity in
12crematoria 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at Auschwitz Birkenhau was by
13June 1943 something in the region 4,700 bodies a day, and
14this is a monthly figure.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand the point you are making, and
16that will be a point you will, no doubt, make later on,
17but I think we have got clear now from Mr Irving, because
18I am anxious that he states clearly what his case is and
19then it can be addressed by Professor van Pelt, but I
20think it is clear now that the suggestion is that, apart
21from a small number of gassings, which is something that
22has already been accepted by Mr Irving, he says that the
23crematoria were being used to -- everywhere were being
24used solely for the purpose of burning the bodies of those
25who died through disease or from overwork, I suppose.
26 MR RAMPTON: Maybe, but on what appears to be, if we are right,
1a relatively insignificant scale.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is obviously the point to be made,
3but I have not misrepresented your case, have I,
5 MR IRVING: No, that is correct, although I am not sure this
6was the way to have elicited it. Let me ask two more
7related questions then.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
9 MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, you said that the prisoners who
10arrived at these camps they were selected and some were
11sent to work and others were exterminated without being
12registered, this is the common consensus, is it not, among
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Why would the Germans have gone to such enormous trouble
16to list down to the last digit the numbers of those who
17were dying in the camps if just 100 yards down the road in
18the same camps they were killing them like flies without
19any kind of registry at all?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I think it is difficult to answer this question, you
21know, actually to reconstruct the rationality of this
22system. I think what -- they had a kind of proper
23concentration camp system. They wanted to know who was in
24the camp. They wanted to control whether people actually
25were able to flee from the camp, for instance, and they
26did not keep statistics about the people they were going
1to kill, as far as I am aware of.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] This generates two further questions, Dr Longerich. Have
3you heard of Dr Conrad Morgan, the chief Judge of the SS
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I have heard of him, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] And he was a lawyer in Frankfurt after the war, was he
7not? He was not prosecuted for war crimes, just so we can
8establish his credentials.
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] He was an investigating judge who carried out
11investigations for the SS about atrocities in
12concentration camps, is that right?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] And were any concentration camp kommandants hanged by the
15SS as a result of having committed what I would call wild
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, as far as I remember, Koch was, for instance, among
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Buchenwald? The kommandant of Buchenwald?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] The husband of the notorious Elz Koch?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] He was hanged in front of the prisoners of his own camp
24for having committed atrocities?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not recall the circumstance, but I know that he was
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And the kommandant of the infamous camp at Pleskau which
2figured in the film Schindler's List, was he also
3penalised, punished, by the SS for committing atrocities?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not recall the details.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Did Conrad Morgan report back to Berlin that large numbers
6of illegal killings had been carried out by these
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I remember that.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this not an extraordinary business, in the light of the
10whole story of the Holocaust now, that the SS was
11conducting its own internal enquiries within its own
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, Himmler himself refers to this incident in his
14speech in Posnan. He said actually, "We are proud that we
15carried out this operation in a proper way, except some
16exceptions", and he is clearly referring to these people.
17So they had an idea that one had to kill people properly,
18and what, you know, they did not hang Koch because he
19killed prisoners in the camp. They were extreme, the
20conditions in the camp were extremely, for instance, the
21amount of looting and the amount of actually -- what is
22the expression in German? [German]
23 MR IRVING: Embezzling, corruption?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Corruption. "Corruption" is the key word here. These
25things played a role in the particular circumstance in
26these camps, I mean, it is clearly that the SS did not
1prosecute Koch because he was killing prisoners. This was
2not, I mean, we have extraordinary, I mean, kommandants of
3concentration camps like, for instance, Ikant(?),
4extremely cruel and sadistic persons, but they were not
5prosecuted because they were killing prisoners in the
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Was Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant of Auschwitz, under
8investigation by the Conrad Morgan also?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not recall this now.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, even if he was, did anything happen to
11him as a result of Morgan's investigation?
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, the witness said he does not know.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was just wondering what the point of the
15 MR IRVING: I know, but, I mean, I cannot really give evidence
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, again I am not really sure you are
18putting your case. Are you suggesting, Mr Irving, and
19please say so if you are ----
20 MR IRVING: This was going to be the next question.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- please listen to the question. That the
22SS conducted a serious investigation and anyone who was
23found to have illegitimately killed any inmate in any
24concentration camp was punished by the SS. Is that the
26 MR IRVING: A number of the Kommandants were prosecuted and
1severely punished for carrying out wild killings.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] May I draw the attention to this document, to the
3statistics. We have here the initials of Heinrich
4Himmler, and statistics say that we have a death rate in
5the camp in the second half of 1942 of 8.5 per cent in
6July, 10 per cent in August, more than 10 per cent in
7September. So Himmler was prepared to accept this high
8death rates with his own initials here. So he knew about
9it and he then, well, tried in a way to keep the death
10rate down to a certain extent. But, as we said, as we
11heard, you know, they accepted at a success, you know,
12actually to keep the monthly rate down from 10 to 8 per
13cent. So this is a kind of...
14 MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, you are not suggesting that these are
15homicidal killings, are you? These statistics here are
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think killings are always -- I mean, I think a killing
18is a killing.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] These are people who died from the reasons stated in the
20covering letter, bad conditions?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] But there is something like a system of concentration camp
22invented by the Nazis in the 1930s and ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, this is the word that I was going to pick on
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you interrupted the witness. Just
26finish your answer.
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Here, this system was more and more, well, they worked on
2this system and elaborated the system. They introduced
3this idea of extermination through work at the beginning
4of 1942. So it was actually -- the purpose of the
5concentration camp was not to keep prisoners alive and to,
6like -- the purpose of the concentration camp here was,
7clearly, to put people to death and to use their ability
8to work for a certain period of time. This is the idea
9behind this system. It was not, you cannot compare it
10with a prison or anything in a civilized country.
11 MR IRVING: Now, I want to ask two questions, one of which
12I was about to ask when his Lordship ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Asked you not to interrupt the witness.
14 MR IRVING: No, I am one stage before that actually.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, anyway, ask it now.
16 MR IRVING: The first question -- the second question is going
17to be about your system. The first question -- oh, dear!
18Winston Churchill once said, "Never say there are three
19important things". I was going to ask about system. You
20have used the word "system". Does not what I said about
21Conrad Morgan indicate that the whole system was
22ramshackle from start to finish? If I can ask you to
23recall that yesterday we saw that Jackeln had obviously
24overstepped the guidelines and he is called back to
25headquarters, but he does get some mild reprimand. He is
26sent back and nothing else happens. Is this not an
1indication of a totally ramshackle system with lack of any
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I do not feel very happy in this situation. I think
4if you want to discuss seriously, let us say, the limits
5of the system that Conrad Morgan saw, then we have to
6discuss the document, we have to read, for instance, the
7evidence about, you know, in Koch's case and so on. But
8I am not really prepared to make these general statements
9about single incidents. You see, I do not have the
10evidence in front of me. I am not prepared to do it.
11There was no indication that I ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] You are quite right. I am not going to ask you about
13things you do not know about because that would not help
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but the system, the SS, as you are trying to say
16here, the idea that the SS had their own, had their own
17disciplinary measures, and they, of course, punished at
18the concentration camps, this has to be seen in a context,
19and I am very unhappy about the idea that I should comment
20on that without actually having a chance to look at the
21wordings and so on.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Very well. Let me ask you about this phrase you have used
23twice this morning now, "vernichtung durch
24Arbeit", destruction by labour?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] You have referred to this on several occasions. Have you
1produced any documents at all in your report where that
2phrase actually occurs or is it just a deduction you make?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] An inference?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] My report is not about particularly this issue. I think
6I mentioned it somewhere in my report, I am not sure here,
7but we have documentary evidence from Himmler in his
8writings to Pohl and to -- that this system was introduced
9at the beginning of 1942.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do not actually reference it in your report.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] At the moment, I would have to look at my report, whether
12this is here.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I did actually look for it.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] You see, this is a different system separate from the
15killings, separate from the extermination by gas. This is
16actually what happens to the prisoners which were sent
17into the camps actually fit for work, and then they used
18him for a couple of months, a couple of weeks and a couple
19of months and then they sent them to the gas chambers.
20This is a similar, if you want to say, a subsystem of the
21whole system. But in my report I am dealing primarily
22with mass executions, with deportations and extermination
23camps, and so on.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, it does not make much sense, does it, to
25have a slave labourer who is working for you and work him
26to death so you then have to replace him with somebody
1else because, presumably, his output drops off as he is
2dying? Does it make sense?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, in which way do you think it makes sense? I do not
4understand the question.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, your proposition that they deliberately took a slave
6labourer for two months and said, "Work him until he drops
7and then replace him".
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is what is -- actually there is a reference in the
9document you presented here when you, about the duties of
10the doctors. They said they have to make sure the
11exchange of prisoners, this is exactly the process. They
12fought a war of racist extermination, so they ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, so we hear, yes.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- one of their main aims in this war was to exterminate
15the Jews in Europe, and they used this as one of the
16methods, and they worked on the assumption that they had
17enough slave labourers at their disposal, and if they had
18exhausted this source, they would use, from their
19perspective, they would use other sources of slave labour,
20like, for instance, the Russians or Poles and so on. They
21work on the assumption that they had, there was an
22abundance, you know, there was an endless number of slave
23labourers who they could force to work for them. But this
24is an irrational and completely wrong assumption, but it
25is still they are working on this assumption.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] My problem is, Dr Longerich, and this was the reason for
1the question I asked you, that you make this very bold and
2adventurous statement about a deliberate plan to
3exterminate by hard labour, and yet you have not actually
4produced any reference documents or sources to enable us
5to establish whether ----
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, you have forced me in a way to make ----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] --- that is your conclusion?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, sorry, but you forced me in a way to make those
9adventures and bold statements because you put in front of
10me some documents and asked me for general statements, and
11my statements may not -- may be adventurous, they may be
12very general, but this is the result of this kind of
14 In my report, as far as I see, I dealt with the
15programme of exterminations and mass executions and
16deportations into extermination camps, not with this
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, in your report, you do on at least two
19occasions use the phrase "extermination by labour" -
20Vernichtung durch Arbeit - and you do not give any
21references for this ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Then let us go to the ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] So we do not know if it is your phrase or a wartime
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "Vernichtung durch Arbeit" is a wartime phrase --
26extermination through labour.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] But you do not give any references for it in your report;
2that is the problem we have.
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We have to look at the pages are you referring to.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we now go to your report and we will perhaps
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us find the reference to "extermination
8 MR IRVING: I am sure Mr Rampton's staff would have found it a
9long ago, if it was referenced.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I expect that Dr Longerich probably remembers
11where it is: Do you Dr Longerich?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not at the moment.
13 MR IRVING: I have to take care that these slogans do not embed
14themselves in the court's subconsciousness without any
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, in the conclusion, I refer in my report in ----
17 MR RAMPTON: Can I interrupt, please?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
19 MR RAMPTON: It is page 77 of the second part of the report.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. This is the conclusion of my report. So in my
22report I am trying to explain the systematic character of
23the killings, and I am trying to explain the emergence of
24the programme. So I think that in the last section of
25this, I am referring to, well actually the machinery of
26mass murder and full operation from 1942 onwards. I base
1my comments here, on my writing here on generally
2well-accepted work, because I thought it was not something
3which is really disputed among historians.
4 We also had an expert witness on Auschwitz here
5who actually was able to fully explain the system. So
6I think that this idea, that prisoners in the camps were
7systematically worked to death, is something which is not
8disputed by historians in this field.
9 MR IRVING: There is a general ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving has put before you this morning
11documents showing an overall mortality rate of 10 per cent
12in all the concentration camps. Does that say anything to
13you, Dr Longerich, about what was intended to go on there?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, this is exactly what I mean. It is an extremely high
15rate of death and, as we learn from the other document, it
16was a task of the doctors to make sure there was a proper
17exchange of prisoners. So this is a machinery to put
18prisoners to death by work.
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am indebted to you for reminding me of
20the documents because, of course, is this right,
21Dr Longerich, the documents do refer purely to
22nourishment, proper nourishment, proper medication, proper
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] --- and not being made to stand in these ridiculous three-
26or four hour-long parades and so on?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. I stated this before that, in the document about the
2duties of concentration camps, it is quite clear that it
3is not the duty of the doctor to care for the welfare.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Just so that it is a matter of record, Dr Longerich, page
577, where you used the phrase annihilation through labour,
6you give no reference, do you?
7 MR RAMPTON: I was going to interrupt because that is a false
8point, too. On page 89, three lines up from the bottom,
9there is, in the bibliography, a reference to a book by
10Ham and Keienburg called Vernichtung durch Arbeit: Der
11Fall Neungamma von 1990.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I made it clear in this final section of the
14report that the annihilation through labour is part of the
15extermination system. I was trying to explain the system
16in a kind of summary because I think that, from 1942
17onwards, it is absolutely not possible to dispute that
18there was such a system for extermination.
19 MR IRVING: Can we be absolutely specific and make quite plain
20for the record that this phrase Vernichtung durch Arbeit
21is not a wartime phrase used by SS, but is a title of a
22post-war book, a secondary source on which you relied, is
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, this is one of the major studies about this problem
25and it refers to a wartime phrase which was currently used
26among the SS.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] You have not referenced the actual wartime document, you
2just referenced somebody's secondary source, the title of
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] My report tries to explain how this system of systematic
5murder was built up. Maybe it was mistake, and also you
6did not have the chance to ask me for more evidence for
7that a month ago, it was not my intention here to explain
8in great detail the existing system of extermination after
91942, because I thought that this is something which is
10generally acknowledged and there is no major dispute about
12 I am trying to explain that the building up of
13the system mainly through the years 1940, 1941 and 1942.
14Then the system is in operation and the annihilation
15through work is one aspect of this system. I am referring
16to second-hand literature. I did not go into detail here;
17I am just referring to general works on this topic in
18which this is described in full detail.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] If there had been one document referred to that secondary
20literature, which was particularly tempting because it
21used that actual phrase, you would no doubt have drawn our
22attention to it, would you not?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] As I said, this is a summary, this is not the main purpose
24of this report. I actually I wrote a book on the policy
25of destruction. I had a chapter on this matter in the
1 Q. [Mr Irving] So you are all feeding upon each other, all the historians
2are just feeding upon each other.
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is a research process and, of course, you rely, in
4your central parts of argumentation, on primary evidence,
5but you do not have to invent the reel every time. This
6is why i accept that you can rely on the research of
7others, if their work is generally accepted in the
8historical profession. This is nothing which is
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Can we rely on a German historian's consensus that the
11consensus of opinion among German historians. What
12happends to a German is ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is an internationally well-established consensus.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] What happens to a German writer who adopts a different
15position on Auschwitz in Germany today, can you tell us?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] You are quite free to express if you have -- as historians
17have doubts and you are quite free to express your doubts
18and to put them down in writing, I do not see what the
19consequences could be.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to labour the point, but are you familiar
21with the fact that a number of writers in Germany have
22been sent to prison for expressing these doubts?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am only aware of the fact that there is a law in
24Germany, paragraph 130 of the German penal code, which is
25against the denial of genocide. I do not know whether you
26refer to this case, but I think if you want me to discuss
1that, you ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] My actual question was more specific. Were you aware that
3certain historians who have written doubts, shall we say,
4about Auschwitz and the Holocaut, have been sent to prison
5for expressing these doubts?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know a historian who actually wrote something on
7Auschwitz and whose works is suppressed for that.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] I think we have had better start making progress on his
9report, my Lord. On page 3 of your report, you refer to
10an SS General called Bach-Zelewski, and you referred to
11him again on page 28, 311 -- I am sorry 3.1.11. This
12paragraph on page 28 shows General Bach-Zelewski carrying
13out the most appalling murderers and atrocities, murdering
14women and children on a huge scale, 2,208 Jews of both
15sexes and so on.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] In this paragraph, it is only said that one Company of the
17Police Battalion 322 Mogilev killed, according to their
18own reports, 2,208 Jews and in this town was
19Bach-Zelenski's headquarters and he was ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I draw attention to the last paragraph?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which paragraph are you on; I cannot see the
23 MR IRVING: 3.1.11, my Lord, on page 28.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and Bach-Zelewski ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] With these two massacres in Mogilev, Bach-Zelewski began a
26whole series of further similar Gross Aktionen - major
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, Bach-Zelewski was the higher SS police leader in the
3centre, so he was responsible for the killing actions of
5 Q. [Mr Irving] A mass murderer on a most horrendous scale.
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is your phrase. Yes, I think it is acceptable.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Somebody whose units kill those kinds of women and
8children, and carried out several such actions?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, It is quite fair to say that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Even one of those murders makes him a murderer?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I would agree, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] He has been used as quite a source by the allied courts
13and by the historians after the war, has he not? What
14happened to Bach-Zelewski? Was he immediately hanged at
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, he was not hanged at Nuremberg.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Or did he die in his bed?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure about this, but the history of his
19persecution after he was not hanged by the Allies, I think
20he was prosecuted but, as far as I am aware, he was never
21sentenced, if I am not wrong.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] He was prosecuted in 1963, is that right?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] 1963. Yes, that is true.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] About 20 years after the war was, he lived life as a
25country gentleman in Germany.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is due to the fact that, in Germany, there was no
1prosecution of Nazi war criminals between 1949 and 1958.
2It actually started in 1958. It took them five years to
3get the evidence together and then prosecution started.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] I am just using this as one example, you appreciate that,
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Example of what? I am not following what the
7point is, Mr Irving.
8 MR IRVING: The unreliability of testimony of people like
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure here. I do not refer here to Bach-Zelewski
11but if I refer to ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 3, can I draw your attention to paragraph 4?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] In this paragraph, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Former higher SS and police leader Erich von dem
15Bach-Zelewski testified on this question during the
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but this example is not the only source. I quoted
18here to say that he referred to a meeting with Himmler and
19just before the beginning of war against the Soviet Union,
20and that Himmler stated there that the Slavic population
21had to be decimated by 30 million.
22 We have other sources for the same fact. There
23is, for instance, referring them to Goring, the Goring's
24remarks to Ciano and particularly important here is
25meeting of the Secretary of States of 2nd May 1941, and
26I am referring them to more documents which actually show
1that there was plan in the German leadership to kill
2millions of Slavs in the war against the Soviet Union. So
3I am not relying only on Bach-Zelewski's statement; it is
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Why do you rely on him at all if at he has such very
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Bach-Zelewski was a witness in the main trial.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am going to interrupt again if
9I may because I am simply not following the point here.
10I thought that it was accepted that the object of invading
11Russia was do decimate the Slav population.
12 MR IRVING: Not by me, my Lord, but that is not the point that
13I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that
14if we are going to write expert reports, one should avoid
15sources like Bach-Zelewski like the plague.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I think you can use these statements, if you find
17that this is -- I am mainly relying on documentary
18evidence but, of course, one can use this postwar evidence
19if it is supported by other sources. I think this is
20something which is generally accepted among historians.
21I am not saying that the plan of the Germans to
22decimate -- we only have Bach-Zelewski as evidence for
23this plan. We have lot of evidence for that.
24Bach-Zelewski was a colourful figure, so he said, in his
25interrogation, that there are other very interesting
26things, and I think one should follow them, one should not
1just ignore them.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Like Scheherezade, she sang like a canary, did she not, in
3order to survivor?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is your comparison.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I now take you further down that paragraph No. 4,
6where are you quoting now the directives which stated
7that, without doubt, umpteen millions of people will
8starve to death when we take what we need from the
9country. The original German, you have rather embellished
10it, have you not? "Zig Millionen Menschen verhungern",
11verhungern, that just means go hungry.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and then it goes on: "Wenn von uns das fur uns
13Notwendige aus dem Lande herausgeholt wird" - if you take
14out of country which is necessary for us.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] What we need, yes, but is it not that they are not
16starving death? You have embellished that slightly, and
17that is the whole point.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They are starving to death because they are agricultural
19products which were taken out of the country. There is
20nothing left for them so they will starve to death.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Starve to death is: "Ein Hunger tut erleben", or
22something like that. "Verhungern" is just "will go
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The context is quite clear, because "we will take
25everything out of the country which we need for
26ourselves"; that is the context.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you agree that that was a bit clever translation by
2you to make the point you wanted to make?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry this is ----
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 4, four lines from the bottom, on page 3.
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think it is from the context.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] It is fundamental to your argument, of course.
7 MR RAMPTON: I do wish Mr Irving would stop interrupting. It
8is very difficult to follow the witness.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally would also like to move on,
10because we are not here concerned with criticising the
11historical approach of Dr Longerich but dealing with the
12criticisms he makes of your historical approach,
13Mr Irving. I think spending a very long time on this
14paragraph in which he cites really quite a number of
15sources for what, he says, was the plan to kill the very
16large number of Slavs. I do not think that is
17productive. I think there are substantive points that you
18have to tackle.
19 MR IRVING: If, on the one hand, your Lordship says that there
20is great deal of evidence for the desire to decimate the
21Slavs by whatever means, then it turns out that one of his
22sources is obtained by just a clever translation of a
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. The meaning of the words becomes clear from the
25context. It is not the only source. If you read the next
26sentence, it is the guidelines for the economic
1organization of the East Agricultural Staff Group: "Many
2tens of millions of people will be made superfluous in
3this area and will die or be forced to emigrate to
4Siberia". I think this is quite clear.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, are you not confusing there the possible
6consequence with a criminal intent, which are two totally
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The intent was to systematically take the agricultural
9products out of country and to use them for their own
10purposes, and to let the population in this country starve
11to death. This was the intention.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. On page 5, paragraph 3.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is the background. I quoted this because this is the
14background for the Holocaust. I am not making a statement
15about the starvation of the Slavic population. I think
16that this is background information that you need to
17understand the violent and cruel intent of the SS when
18they invaded the Soviet Union. This is background
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, do you agree that if I translated
21"verhungern" as starve to death, then I would have been
22rightly criticised for mistranslation or distortion?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Probably, but again I repeat myself, I think the context
24is clear but they just do not starve to death because of a
25catastrophe; the natural catastrophe is because it is a
26part of the systematic plan.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 5, paragraph 3, you say that the Einsatzgruppen
2consisted of 3,000 men. Is that the total number of men?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] About a little bit more than 3,000 I think. Yes, it is
5 Q. [Mr Irving] That seems a remarkably small force if we are to believe
6the enormous statistical figures that have been thrust
7upon us over the last few weeks.
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know whether it is mentioned in the next
9paragraph, but the forces who carried out this killing
10operation consists of the Einsatzgruppen, of police
11battalions and of the two Waffen SS Breigetz, so
12altogether this was a force of about 30,000 men. We have,
13as far as the Einsatzgruppen are concerned, this excellent
14documentation, the Ereignismeldung uber der SSR, but it is
15also clear from the documents that also other units like
16the Order Police units like the Waffen SS Breigetz were
17active in killing people. We have sources which explain
18to us that the Wehrmacht, in many cases, was actively
19involved in these killings, and most important is that the
20SS and the police built up a force of auxiliary policemen
21in the area which had a strength in 1942 for about 300,000
22men. We have a lot of evidence that these men were also
23actively involved in the killings.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] They were using the locals, were they?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They use the locals as auxiliary police. The general rule
26was that then the SS, the SD people would carry out their
1killings and so they would shoot people themselves, and
2use the auxiliary SS to seal off the area. So it is not a
3problem manpower shortage to carry out this operation.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] On page 6, we are going to look at paragraph 6 which is
5the Heydrich order of July 2nd 1941. You are familiar
6with that order, are you not?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] This is one which, in part for example, said to instigate
9pogroms or where pogroms were instigated by the locals to
10turn a blind eye and generally to jolly them along and not
11to get in the way.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I have two questions on this document, Dr Longerich. The
14first one is where does it come from? Is it from Russian
15files or from Western files?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Are we talking about the 2nd July document?
17 Q. [Mr Irving] The 2nd July document.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is a document which comes from the Moscow archive.
19It was given to the court in Koblenz which dealt with the
20Heuser case in 1963. It has been available in the Federal
21archives since 1963.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is the authenticity of that document
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 MR IRVING: I just want to ask him a question.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not by you, by Mr Irving.
1 MR IRVING: No.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If it is, challenge it, if it is not, let us
4 MR IRVING: I can only ask the most general questions. I can
5say, Dr Longerich, are you thoroughly content that all the
6documents that come from the Soviet Union ----?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Irving, that will not do. Are you
8suggesting that it is not an authentic document? If so,
9cross-examine on that basis. If you are not suggesting
10that it is not authentic, then move on.
11 MR IRVING: Would you look at the last line on that page
12please: "Jews in Party and State functions". Will you
13not accept that this limits the killing of Jews in this
14document, just the "Jews in Party and State functions"?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have to go back to this point I made yesterday.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There is a mistake here and I have to repeat that ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember the point.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The word "all" should be in the first line, so this has to
20be read as: "All Jews and Party and State functions", so
21we know that the Soviet Union was a country where the
22state played an enormous role. So this would apply to,
23let us say, teachers, to every Civil, not only to every
24Civil Servant, it would apply to any manager of a State
25opened shop, for instance. So I think the number is quite
26high, it is several hundred thousand. I forgot to say
1when we went through this document yesterday, I think ----
2 MR IRVING: You look at the unsoweiter, do you not?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I forget this yesterday. In the same document Heydrich
4suggested to instigate pogroms. If you have a pogrom you
5cannot actually ----
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Limit it?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Limit it. You do not have any control about who you are
8going to kill. A pogrom is a wide massacre. So if you
9encourage the local population to organize massacres, you
10do not have any control about the outcome of this
11massacre. So I think I read this, this telegram, or this
12instruction, sorry, actually in this is a kind of
13message. You can kill all Jews of party and state
14function, but there is not a specific definition of the
15people who are going to be killed. Jews, if they are
16suspicious, if they are propagandist, etc., you can also
17go to kill them. There is also a reference in the
18guidelines on page 5, in the guidelines for the troops in
19Russia. These are guidelines which are read out on
20company 11, every company of Wehrmacht. It says in
21sentence 2: "The struggle demands ruthless energetic and
22drastic measures against the Bolsheviks agitators,
23guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews", and Jews. There is
24nothing about Jews in party and state position. So every
25soldier of the Wehrmacht knew that this was a war against
26the Jews, among others.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] It does not say, that paragraph, "You are going kill all
2the Bolsheviks agitators"?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but it says.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] It says just: "Drastic measures, ruthless"?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Exactly energetic and drastic measures, and we know that
6the Wehrmacht then in the following month was in many
7cases involved in the killing of Jews civilians.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, I am going to have hold you to the actual
9wording of that July 2nd telegram. I am going to suggest
10strongly that you using the word "all" to embrace all five
11lines is not justified?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving] The German is (German spoken). That is the only use of
14the word "all," is it not?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just look at it on the page.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] In the original the "all" is in the first line.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am interrupting because we must
18get on. Just look at it on the page. It is page 30.
19 MR IRVING: Page?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite impossible to say that "all" ----
21 MR IRVING: Page 30 of what, my Lord?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- this new bundle, reproducing yet again
23most of the documents called N1, it is quite obvious that
24"all" qualifies everybody on the list, including Jews in
25state and party positions. That is beyond argument. Page
2630, bottom of the page.
1 MR IRVING: If your Lordship wishes then we will move on.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that so clear.
3 MR IRVING: Can I just emphasise that the last line in that
4says: "Jews in party and state functions." It does not
5say "all Jews, including those in party and state
6functions", does it?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know whether I have to repeat this.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] It just says: "All Jews in party and state functions"?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know whether I have to repeat this, but from the
10German original it is quite clear that the "all" relates
11to all the following categories. So it has to be read
12as "All Jews in party and state functions", that is quite
14 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what I am saying. You do not say that it says:
15"All Jews including those in party"?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, it says: "All Jews in party and state positions".
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is very limited, is it not?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, in a state which has a state-run economy the number
19is I think relatively, the number is relatively large.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] So you are including everybody in the entire economy?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you have a manager of a firm which belongs to the
22State, he is a functionary of the state.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] The reason I am saying this, Dr Longerich, is because in
24your opening sentence in paragraph 7 on page 7, you say,
25"This order", in other words, this document, "is
26certainly not to be interpreted as meaning that Heydrich
1intended to limit the executions to those Jews who held
2party and state functions." Why not? That is precisely
3what it does say?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I give you the explanation in the following sentence.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is very much within the guidelines that Hitler had
6laid down, saying: "Kill the Jewish intelligentsia"?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but the fact that also this order relates to other
8radical elements I think makes it quite clear that you
9could kill Jews under other headings than Jews in party
10and state positions.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You are relying on that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you look at the Einsatzgruppen reports, they are going
13to kill in the next weeks, they are going to kill Jews who
14were not in state and party positions. They were killing,
15for instance, the Jewish intelligentsia. They were going
16in the following, they were starting in July 1941 to kill
17all men of military age. So I try to interpret this
18instruction in the light of the following events. I think
19from the following events it becomes quite clear that the
20intention of instruction is not to limit the executions to
21Jews in party and state positions. But, let us say, that
22it is the first group where they would start to kill
23people, the first group to start with. You see the
24instructions, I think you have to go back to the context,
25this is a kind of summary of verbal instructions Heydrich
26gave to the Einsatzgruppen, and he is just informing the
1highest SS leaders about this verbal instruction. It is a
2summary. We do not have the verbal instructions. We are
3trying to reconstruct the verbal instructions, but I think
4the verbal instructions were different than this here.
5The verbal instructions tended to include more Jews than
7 Q. [Mr Irving] So your paragraph 7 relies on three sources: Verbal
8instructions for which you have no source; the document
9itself and what you know to have happened, in other words,
10presumptions backwards towards the document, so to speak.
11So your opening sentence there about the order is not to
12be interpreted as meaning, is based on more than just the
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, give me some time, please. I think I refer here and
15in the following, we have numerous eyewitnesses actually
16who stated, go so far to state after the war that actually
17that these instructions of Heydrich were the order to kill
18all Jews in the Soviet Union. I am trying to, I spent a
19lot of time, I am trying to reconstruct the context of
20these verbal instructions.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Can you go to the next page, please, and look at your list
22of footnotes on the next page?
23 MR RAMPTON: Could I please intervene once again? Mr Irving is
24quite incorrigible. This kind of cross-examination would
25never be permitted in a professional advocate. Can we
26please go back to page 5, paragraph 2, which Mr Irving
2 MR IRVING: I am leaping forwards because his Lordship wishes
3to make progress.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are dotting about. I do not find this
5very helpful and I have got well in mind what you said in
6the course of your cross-examination which is why I have
7not highlighted anything for quite a while now. Anyway,
8page 5, Mr Rampton.
9 MR RAMPTON: Page 5 which Mr Irving leapt over because it is
10inconvenient for him, paragraph 2 which is a document
11dated 19th May 1941.
12 MR IRVING: I think this is a most unhelpful interruption.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It really flows from the way in which you are
14carrying out your cross-examination. You are dotting
15about the report and you are cherry picking again.
16Mr Rampton is perfectly entitled to say, if you are really
17suggesting, that the instructions to kill the Jews was
18limited as you have just been suggesting to Dr Longerich,
19Mr Rampton is certainly perfectly entitled to say, well,
20you are missing out some of the documents which give the
21full picture. .
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, we have dealt with these May and March
23documents exhaustively over the past few days. I am very
24happy to deal with every single document that is mentioned
25in this report, but then once again I will fall foul of
26your Lordships reprimands.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would find it more helpful if you were to
2deal with it not so much by going to individual references
3but at any rate to start by a number of broader brush
4questions. The difficulty in this part of the case is
5that you are shifting your position. I think there is no
6doubt about that.
7 MR IRVING: Shifting my position?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
9 MR IRVING: I am trying to establish the weaknesses of this
10expert report as well as I can.
11 MR RAMPTON: It is not permissible to do that, in my
12submission, by a kind of memory test when the foundation
13for what the witness has said in a later paragraph is to
14be found in an earlier paragraph. It is simply cheating.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Mr Irving, I cannot conduct the
16cross-examination for you. Dr Longerich, do you regard
17the guidelines referred to, the 19th May guidelines, as
18being limited to Jewish intelligentsia, the few holding
19senior positions in the State or in the Party?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I mentioned this before. I said this is the order which
21was read out on company level, so every German soldier was
22aware of these guidelines. It plainly says Jews. It
23refers to energetic and drastic measures against the
24Bolshevik agitators, gorillas, saboteurs, Jews. So Jews
25are here mentioned among partisans and members of the
1 MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. I will cross-examine on that
2particular document, if your Lordship wishes. Are you
3familiar roughly with the contents of the Kommissar order?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is not the Kommissar order. The Kommissar order is a
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am asking. Are you familiar roughly with the contents
7of the Kommissar order?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it perfectly explicit about killing, about liquidating
10the Kommissars and Jews and the intelligentsia?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. The Kommissar order only refers to Soviet Kommissars.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] The guidelines of March 1941, do they make it quite plain
13what is going to happen to these enemies of the Nazis when
14they invade Russia? They are going to be liquidated. It
15is quite specific, is it not?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The Kommissar order is quite specific, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Why does this document here then just talk about energetic
18measures, if it is perfectly plain?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The document does not say every German soldier is entitled
20or allowed to kill every Jew on Russian soil. It gives
21them a guideline how to deal with, let us say, suspicious
22people. They are entitled, encouraged, to take the most
23drastic measure. The other important document we have to
24refer to here are the guidelines concerning the military
25jurisdiction in the Soviet Union, which says that no
26German soldier is automatically prosecuted for atrocities
1against the Soviet population, so the message is, if you
2feel there is something suspicious going on, you are
3entitled, you are in a way free to take the most drastic
4measures against Bolshevik saboteurs and Jews. So you can
5shoot Jews. It does not say you have to.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] It does not say that.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think it becomes clear. You have to see this document
8in its historical context.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] The context is other documents that quite freely use
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are going to have to start
12putting what your case is. I am going to put what
13I understand you to be suggesting. The suggestion --
14Dr Longerich can deal with it -- is that the 19th May
15guidelines, when they talk of energetic and drastic
16measures against, amongst others, Jews means some measures
17other than killing them. Do you accept that?
18 MR IRVING: Not necessarily killing, I would think.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you accept that?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think that the most drastic measures means to kill
21them. This is the most drastic measures I can think of.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is enough. You do not need to embroider
23on that answer. Mr Irving, move on.
24 MR IRVING: Does it limit it to killing or does it say any
25measures, though drastic and ruthless?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think the most drastic measures you can take against
1anybody in a war is to kill him or her. I think this is
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any reason why they should not have said killing
4in that document if that is what they meant?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am sorry?
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any reason why they should not have used some
7word for killing if that is what they meant? You are
8entitled to execute or to kill while trying to escape or
9whatever other things they would say if they did in the
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We discussed yesterday the use of language and I showed
12you a document which explicitly said that they were
13particularly cautious to use words like liquidation, for
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are suggesting that energetic
16and drastic measures means something other than killing.
17Would you like to put to the witness what exactly you are
18suggesting those measures would be? Precisely.
19 MR IRVING: Were energetic and drastic measures taken against
20Soviet prisoners of war?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. That is not what I am asking you to do.
22You are suggesting that energetic and drastic measures
23means something other than killing the Jews and the
24others. What are you suggesting those measures would be?
25 MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think this witness knows.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am asking you to put to the witness what
1you say energetic and drastic measures means, if it does
2not mean killing.
3 MR IRVING: Is it not possible that, by using the phrase
4energetic and drastic measures, the German Army was
5instructing its lower levels to arrest, imprison under the
6harshest possible conditions, torture, interrogate, beat
7up, deprive of their liberty ----
8 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, this is perfectly terrible. The
9German does not just say energetic and drastic measures.
10It uses the word rucksichtsloses which is translated as
11ruthless energetic and drastic measures. Now Mr Irving
12ought to ask the question again, in my view.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is slightly my fault. I left out the
15 MR RAMPTON: I know.
16 MR IRVING: Start again.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not need to start again.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I think the answer is quite clear that in English the
20most ruthless energetic and drastic measures is to kill
22 MR IRVING: Yes. But there are other measures which are also
23ruthless and drastic which are not killing, is that right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes and this is the reason why it said the most drastic.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now look at paragraph 9, please, on page 7? You
26say that the Einsatzgruppen received explicit orders --
1this is quite important, is it not -- to murder Jewish
2civilians, and your evidence for that is -- is it a
3document? Are there any such orders in the archives?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We went through these orders just five minutes ago, and
5there is additional evidence for that if you look at the
6statements of the leaders of the Einsatzgruppen. I am not
7relying completely on this, but I am trying to put
8together here documents and eyewitness accounts.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Just very briefly, you have listed the eyewitnesses
10on page 8, have you not, in the footnotes?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] These are all testimonies that are over 20 years after the
13event, are they not? Every single one. In some cases 30
14years after the event. Do you attach much reliance on
15that in German courts?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. Most of them are from the 1970s, 1960s and beginning
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, again I am baffled by this part of
19the case. Are you now suggesting that thousands of Jewish
20civilians were not shot by the Einsatzgruppen?
21 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I am attacking his credibility as a
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: His credibility?
24 MR IRVING: Yes, his.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have just put to him that these
26eyewitnesses who say they saw civilian Jews being killed
1are not to be treated as reliable because they gave their
2evidence so long after the event. How does that go to
3this witness's credibility?
4 MR IRVING: If I was to write a history based entirely on
5testimonies given in court 30 years after the event, I
6would be derelict.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I repeat, are you suggesting now that
8thousands and thousands of civilian Jews were not executed
9by the Einsatzgruppen?
10 MR IRVING: Quite the contrary. We have seen any amount of
11evidence to show that they were.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So why are you casting doubt on the
13reliability of these eyewitnesses?
14 MR IRVING: I am casting doubt on the reliability of the report
15as a whole because it depends on such sources.
16 MR IRVING: It does not depend on those sources. It depends
17heavily on the contemporaneous----
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The report as far as the Einsatzgruppen is concerned is
19based, first of all, on orders. We went through that.
20Then on accounts of eyewitnesses, and then in the next
21chapter I am going in fine detail. I am looking at every
22command and I am showing you, again on the basis of the
23Eichnesmeldung and other sources, that these orders were
24carried out and the Einsatzgruppen killed hundreds and
25thousands of people. I am not relying only on some
26witness statements made in the 1960s in German courts.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving does not seem to be disputing that
2so why we are spending so long on it, I do not know.
3 MR IRVING: Let me look at the word orders and ask the specific
4question which I think probably will help the court. Is
5there any suggestion that these orders came from Hitler
6for these particular killings?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Many of these eyewitnesses referred to explicit Fuhrer
8order they got. We are not able to trace this back.
9There is no written evidence for that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, this is the reason that I asked the earlier
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not accept that, but you have asked a
13relevant question now and I am listening to the answer.
14 MR IRVING: It was actually the follow up question in my list.
15I shall have to ask it again. In other words, the only
16evidence which you would advance for any connection
17between this and the Fuhrer, Adolf Hitler, giving such an
18order is eyewitness testimony of 20 or 30 years after the
19event. Is that right?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think we went through this yesterday. The problem is we
21do not have a written explicit order signed by Adolf
22Hitler which says European Jews or the Jews in the Soviet
24 Q. [Mr Irving] The answer is yes?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] -- has to be killed. I do not have this document
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What we do have -- may I make
2sure I understand your evidence and then we can move on --
3is the Muller document, which you have given evidence,
4rightly or wrongly, which suggests that Hitler wanted the
5reports from the Einsatzgruppen to go to him, and we have
6at any rate some reports going to Berlin.
7 MR IRVING: Munich.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Berlin, which set out in great detail the
9numbers of Jews killed.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. Yesterday we went through the documents and we had
11Himmler's entry in this diary, 18th December. You will
12recall that. We mentioned briefly the report No. 51 which
13states that actually more than 360,000 Jews were killed
14and so on. So we can make this connection but, as I say,
15there is no explicit order on Hitler's letter head with
16Hitler's signature which actually would say that he is
17ordering the killing of all European Jews.
18 MR IRVING: So the answer to my question was yes, in other
19words it is just eyewitness testimony 30 years after the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not, for the very reason that he has
22just given, because we have the Muller document followed
23by reports going to Berlin.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, the Muller document is not a Hitler order. It
25shows that Hitler is quoted as saying that he wanted to
26see visual materials relating to the activities of the
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we went through this. I bear in mind
3the concession you made in your cross-examination and the
4cross-examination yesterday, and I really do not think we
5ought to spend any more time on this. We have a lot of
6ground to cover.
7 MR IRVING: On page 10, four lines from the bottom, this goes
8purely to your translation ability, gewalte Ladung, which
9you translate as a massive load. In fact that is a
10military phrase for hand grenade, is it not?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Gewalte Ladung, you put together a dozen or so hand guns,
12this thing about gewalte Ladung.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 12, paragraph 2.12, this is the Jager report. This
14is another document from Soviet archives, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, available since the beginning of the 1960s.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. I am not commenting on it. He talks about 70 Jews
17being killed, 127 Jews. I am sorry, I am back on page
1810. Just one general question: Why is there such a
19disparity in the killing rates or achievements of the
20various Einsatzgruppen, some of them killing tens of
21thousands and some of them just 70 or 100 and so on, if
22there was an overall system from above?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It depends on various factors. For instance, the number
24of Jews who lived in the area where the Einsatzgruppen
25Kommandos were sent to. Then there were two different
26types of Einsatzkommandos and Sonderkommandos. One was
1attached to the armies and one was actually active in the
2rear areas. Then, during the first month of the killings,
3it is obvious that some of the Kommandos were more
4reluctant to actually kill in large numbers Jews. When
5they went through a kind of learning process they were
6instructed and reminded, so that we have in the end in
7October 1941 a more uniform picture. It depends also on
8the personal initiative of the leader of each Kommandos.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Was there any competitiveness between the Einsatzgruppen
10to achieve high body counts?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I would certainly say there was an element of
12competitiveness between them.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Very minor point: Would there have been a temptation then
14to inflate figures?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There might be a temptation to inflate figures, but also,
16on the contrary, we know that the Eichnesmeldung do not
17contain all figures. There are some figures which were
18left out. For instance, other Kommandos reported to
19different institutions and so on, but yes, one cannot
20exclude this factor.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 2.1.2, on the Jager report now, it is talking
22about executions that have been taking place since July
234th at Kornas or Kovno. He quite specifically says they
24were carried out upon my orders and my command by the
25Lithuanian Partisans. He is not saying it was done on
26Hitler's orders, is he?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you look into, let us say, orders of a Kommando of a
2regiment, of an Army, he would refer to his own orders.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Chain of command, is it not?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is a chain of command, yes.
5 MR IRVING: Did Jager get into trouble carrying out any
6killings round about this time in 1941?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry?
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Did Jager get into trouble for authorising killings in
91941, the same as Jeckeln?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] As far as I am aware, not. The man who had responsibility
11for killing of German Jews in this area was Jeckeln. We
12know that he got a nasty letter from Himmler and that was
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Which we have gone into in some detail. Page 13, line 3:
15What is your evidence that all Jewish men in this age
16group had been murdered? I am looking at your word
17murdered. Surely they might just have been sent off to
18work details or something like that, the fact that they
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. The Einsatzgruppen reports refer quite clearly to
21executions, and I think this is something which
22I understood as murder.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] You said that they were just murdering women. Older men
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] You suggested that this was proof that all the rest had
1been murdered already.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, where are we going with all of
3this? Here we have a whole body of reports from
4Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D. They all talk of hundreds
5or thousands of people, Jews and others, having been
6killed by them.
7 MR IRVING: Yes.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the point of selecting tiny little
9aspects of one or two of those reports? If you are saying
10they made it all up, fine, say so. Put it to the
11witness. But, if you do not say that, let us move on to
13 MR IRVING: My point was that he was drawing an unjustified
14inference on the basis of the evidence in front of him.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have accepted, and perhaps you are going
16to resile from this, that hundreds of thousands of Jews
17and others were killed by the Einsatzgruppen.
18 MR IRVING: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why are we going through these reports? I do
20not understand the point.
21 MR IRVING: I am trying to shake your Lordship's confidence in
22this witness's ability to draw proper inferences from
23documents before him.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If there is no dispute between you and the
25witness that there were hundreds of thousands of killings,
26what do I gain from a minute point being taken on a
2 MR IRVING: The whole report is full of minute points.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you accept there were hundreds of
4thousands of Jews and others killed.
5 MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord. If the report had been written in
6global terms like that, then I would have dealt with it in
7global terms, but he has written an excellent report full
8of mosaic stones.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you do not quarrel with the picture made
10up of all the mosaic.
11 MR IRVING: Paragraph 2.2.4 on page 14. Here you are quoting a
12witness called Otto Bradfisch, who says quite clearly
13there was no express order to exterminate the Jewish
14population in a place or area solely because of its racial
15origin. What do you make of that statement? I am looking
16at "no express order".
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, it says here that----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have read the whole of it.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] "To exterminate the Jewish population in a place or area
20solely and alone because of its racial origin". I said in
21the same sentence, "Nevertheless in practice the orders
22given by the EKB as the Einsatzgruppen B were so broadly
23conceived that every Jew was regarded as a danger for the
24fighting troops and therefore to be liquidated". This is
25a statement. So he is saying that we had to find another
26pretext, another cover, to kill them. That is the essence
1of this statement, I think.
2 MR IRVING: Very well. Dr Longerich, you attach great
3importance, do you not, to this Himmler Hitler
4conversation of December 18th 1941?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think this is quite a remarkable source, yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] You have inferred from that that the als partisan and
7anzusehen is words used by Hitler to Himmler.
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It does not say as partisan and anzusehen.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Ausrottung?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, to be ausrottung as partisans. This is what it says.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, and you considered that phrase is used by Hitler to
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but is it not equally likely that this was a standard
15attitude of Himmler's long before he went to see Hitler,
16that Hitler had always regarded the Jews as partisans and
17to be treated as such?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I do not read it like this.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you to look at page 15, line 4? You have here
20"Himmler had already expressed on his visit to Galestov
21on July 8th that -- I am quoting now -- basically every
22Jew is to be seen as a partisan". Is that not precisely
23the same phrase?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Your footnote 67 (German) is that not almost exactly the
26same kind of turn of phrase that Hitler has used?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. This line in Himmler's calendar is a confirmation of
2this policy. It is true that Himmler had started this
3policy earlier. He started it in the summer of 1941 and
4I will read this as a final confirmation of this policy by
6 Q. [Mr Irving] If I take you please to page 22, line 5?
7 MR RAMPTON: May I once again ----
8 MR IRVING: Oh dear. Here comes the interruption every time
9I make a point.
10 MR RAMPTON: This is going to be a very tedious day if I am
11going to have to keep going back to earlier parts of the
12evidence. If Mr Irving is now saying, as he appears to
13be, that that entry in Himmler's log for 18th December
141941 does not record the substance or result of a
15conversation with Adolf Hitler, he had better put it to
16this witness, because it is new.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The suggestion that I understand was just
18made is that in his agenda or appointments book Himmler
19jotted down what Hitler had said months or years before.
20 MR RAMPTON: I thought until half a minute ago that that had
21been common ground since the beginning of this case.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So did I.
23 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving is once again shifting his ground. Now
24he must put it to the witness.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that must have been the thrust of
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, I would find it very helpful if Mr
2Rampton, with his unerring eye, does not always interrupt
3just when I am zeroing in for quite an important point.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had a huge amount of
5cross-examination on the 18th December document.
6 MR IRVING: We now have new material, my Lord.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has not been suggested until now I believe
8that the reference to ausrottung the Jews as partisans was
9something that was not even discussed between Himmler and
11 MR IRVING: That is not the point I make. Can I explain the
12point that I am trying to make?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, do.
14 MR IRVING: If we had just that agenda note in front of us, we
15would be entitled to draw the inference which Mr Rampton
16does that Himmler is writing down an idea expressed and
17initiated by Adolf Hitler. But we here have evidence that
18on two occasions, and this is when I was unfortunately
19interrupted by Mr Rampton, in the summer of 1941 Himmler
20already has that idea embedded firmly in his mind and he
21uses precisely the same turn of phrase when he goes to see
22Hitler, and this may very well have influenced the way he
23recorded the conversation afterwards.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I am afraid, is pure equivocation.
25What do you mean it may have influenced the way he wrote
1 MR IRVING: That he wrote down his own stock phrase rather than
2quoting what Adolf Hitler had said.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are suggesting that that note does not
4represent something that was discussed between Hitler and
6 MR IRVING: Certainly they discussed the Jewish problem but
7then Himmler recorded the outcome in his own language
8rather than in Hitler's language, if I can put it like
9that. The fact that it was his own language is also borne
10out on page 22.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us just look at the document. We really
12have to try to see what the case is that is being made.
13Can somebody give me a reference in the new file? Page
14183, I think.
15 MR IRVING: 184, my Lord.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 184, yes, quite right. Now, I had understood
17the case has proceeded so far on the basis that, and there
18is a much better copy of this document somewhere than
19this, on the left-hand side -- Mr Irving, would you
20answer the question I am going to ask you at the end of
21this -- Himmler had written down as being the topic he
22was proposing to raise with Hitler when he saw him
24 MR IRVING: Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And that, and this is what I understood to be
26accepted up until now, the different notation als partisan
1and ausrottung was what Himmler had written ----
2 MR IRVING: Subsequently.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- Following his discussion about that very
4topic with Hitler.
5 MR IRVING: Very well. Yes, precisely.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are now suggesting -- tell me if I am
7wrong about this -- that als partisan ausrottung has
8nothing to do with any discussion between Himmler and
9Hitler, it is something that Himmler recalled Hitler
10having said some time before. Is that your case now?
11 MR IRVING: No, my Lord. It is completely wrong, completely
12different from what I am suggesting.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not understand what you are putting
14to the witness.
15 MR IRVING: What I am suggesting is that Himmler went to see
16Hitler with Judenfrager written down in his appointment
17book. Subsequently he wrote down the words als partisan
18and ausrotten, but this was his own phrase that he wrote
19down, because it was a phrase that he had used very
20similarly already twice that summer to summarize the
21conversation. It is very dangerous trying to extrapolate
22just on the basis of four words anyway precisely what
23happened in a conversation that only lasted 10 or 20
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So are you or are you not saying that the
26notion of killing the Jews as partisans was something that
1was discussed and agreed between Hitler and Himmler?
2 MR IRVING: Yes.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You accept it was discussed and agreed
4between Hitler and Himmler?
5 MR IRVING: Yes.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not understand what you are seeking
7to suggest to this witness. We now have that clear so we
8can move on.
9 MR IRVING: After that successful interruption by Mr Rampton
10I will not take your Lordship to page 22 where he used it
11a second time. Page 17 on line 7 after the words, "about
127,000 Jews were collected and shot by the security police
13in retribution for these inhuman atrocities", you have
14omitted quite a lengthy passage there, have you not, from
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. This is why I put these three dots in the text after
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Do you recall offhand what the lengthy passage? Was
19it a description of the atrocities in great detail?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot recall at the moment but we probably have the
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, in the interests of making forward
23progress I do not think I am going to press this point.
24It is a four page description of atrocities committed on
25the Ukranians which were discovered by the Germans when
26they arrived. Obviously the Germans ran berserk. It
1probably does not -- why did you omit this very lengthy
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not see the point you are making here. They were
4atrocities from the -- where are we here?
5 Q. [Mr Irving] In July 1941.
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] In Lobov, yes, so there were atrocities committed by the
7Soviet NKVD against Ukranians and, as a result of this,
8the Einsatzgruppen C shot 7,000 Jews. So I do not see the
9point between the actions and the so-called retaliation
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the suggestion must be this,
12Dr Longerich, that these 7,000 Jews had all been involved
13in some way in the atrocities on the Ukrainians and
14therefore, in a sense, the shooting of them by the
15security police was justified.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. This was a massacre among the Jewish population of
17this town. We have details about the way it was carried
18out. There was nothing like a kind of identifying of
19every of the 7,000 as perpetrators, as one of the people
20actually who instigated ----
21 MR IRVING: Was it an active retribution then?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Retribution directed against the Jewish population, so it
23was part of the systematic killing, guided out under the
24pretext of a retaliation action. If you read the whole
25thing, there is nothing in this text which indicates that
26there was a kind of extermination done by the
1Einsatzgruppen to identify among the 7,000 Jews the people
2who might have been responsible for thee atrocities. The
3idea that they started retaliations against the Jews for
4something the NKVD did, this is the kind of question.
5This shows actually that this is a part of the war of
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So, when you write on line 4 of page 19, that this
8use of retribution was just a pretence ----
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is a very interesting example. "In German's polar city
10a quarter of whose population was Jewish in the last few
11days, especially the Jewish women, have shown imprudent
12and arrogant behaviour because of limitations imposed upon
13them. They tore their own and their children's clothes
14off their bodies. As provisional retribution the Kommando
15which arrived for the purpose of re-establishing the peace
16shot 50 male Jews". So I think you get a very good
17insight into this kind of retribution or retaliation.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Does this kind of thing happen in wars like Vietnam and
19elsewhere? Is there a lot of brutality on both sides?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not an expert on the Vietnam war.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am at a total loss to understand why we are
22going through the detail of the shooting when you accept
23that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed by the
24Einsatzgruppen. I do not understand the point, Mr Irving.
25 MR IRVING: The reason for asking that is that the witness has
26left out a four page description in the most hideous and
1ghastly detail of what the Germans found when they got to
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it served the 7,000 Jews right, did it?
4 MR IRVING: He then suggests that the word "retribution" was
5unjustified. He says here that the retribution was just a
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, exactly.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Having left out all the evidence that it was not.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I will simply say to you now that
10you are not serving your own cause well by taking up time
11quite pointlessly on these sorts of questions.
12 MR IRVING: Well, risking your Lordship's wrath, I am going to
13go to page 22, which is something different, line 5.
14Again, you have Himmler saying basically every Jew is to
15be regarded as a partisan. So I must insist therefore
16that the December 18th document shows the initiative came
17from Himmler and not from Hitler to regard the Jews as
18partisans, because this is Himmler stating already back in
19July. He keeps on saying this, that the Jews are to be
20regarded as partisans, so what Hitler may then discuss
21with Himmler in December is neither here nor there
22really. Would you agree?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a new proposition.
24 MR IRVING: Well, my Lord perhaps I am expressing myself
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was discussed between Himmler and Hitler
1but that it is neither here nor there?
2 MR IRVING: No. The proposition that I am making, my Lord, is
3that the initiative for regarding the Jews as partisans
4came not from Hitler to Himmler, but the other way round.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose Mr Rampton is particularly
6bothered one way or the other. The point he makes is that
7Hitler agreed upon it as a policy. Am I wrong about
9 MR RAMPTON: I do not care whether Hitler initiated it or
10whether he ratified it. It does not matter a row of
11beans. The fact is he was in on it, in on the murder of
121.2 million innocent people.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is the point, Mr Irving.
14 MR IRVING: The reason that it matters a row of beans is
15because we are looking at Hitler's state of mind and if,
16as in the Reichskristallnacht, the initiative for that
17came from Goebbels, and the initiative for this comes from
18Himmler, tells us something about the likelihood of
19issuing orders, particularly when in the spring of 1942 we
20find a weary Fuhrer saying, "For God's sake, let us leave
21it all until the war is over". It helps to justify that.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The issue between the parties which I have to
23consider in the context of whether you have dealt with
24this responsibly is not whether it was initiated, all this
25killing, by Hitler, but whether he knew about it. We are
26on Hitler's knowledge, not on whether he was the
1originator of all this.
2 MR IRVING: My Lord, I wholeheartedly endorse the position that
3your Lordship adopts on that and your Lordship will see
4from the position that I put in the two pages this morning
5that I have never challenged that he was involved in every
6way in the killing of the Jews behind the Eastern Front.
7However, when this goes to Hitler's's state of mind, so
8that we can judge the likelihood of the Schlegelberger
9document being an accurate portrayal of his intentions or
10not, then I am entitled to draw attention to whether the
11initiative came from Himmler or from Hitler on this
12particular occasion, I think, if I can put it like that.
13I regret if I am expressing myself so obscurely that your
14Lordship does not see the purpose behind my questions
16 Page 23, paragraph 2.7.2, it goes really to the
17same matter. "These shootings were carried out", you
18write, "under the pretext of 'retribution', punishment for
19'plundering' or portrayed as a struggle against
20partisans". If there was a Fuhrer order to kill Jews, why
21would they need the pretexts? Surely, that would
22overwrite any need for any kind of pretext, would it not,
23if the eyewitnesses are right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they in their reports prefer to give specific
25reasons for the killing. They were not just saying, "We
26are killing these people because they are Jews". They
1had, obviously, there was a kind of order to actually
2attach to each killing a kind of reason which could be, a
3kind of rational argument, you know, why they killed this
4particular group. They do not -- in their reports they do
5not refer to a written order by Hitler in these reports.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But when Eisenhower gave orders to kill all the Germans,
7as he did, he did not say, "We are going to do this as a
8pretext that they are plundering and looting" ----
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot comment on ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] --- the orders from the Supreme Commander were good
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot comment on Eisenhower. I am not familiar with
13the order given by Eisenhower to kill all the Germans,
15 Q. [Mr Irving] The first two lines of page 24, please. You say: "The
16behaviour of the units followed a standardized pattern
17which however was not altogether uniform". Does that not
18suggest that there was no system, that there was no
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I mean, I spent here about 20 pages to describe the
21actions of the different Kommandos and, as you rightly
22say, there are, for instance, some differences so far as
23the numbers of victims is concerned, when actually
24Kommando A started to kill women and Kommando B started to
25kill women. So I think one can argue that there is a
26standardised pattern but it is not completely uniform.
1They did not start on the same day, on the very same day,
2for instance, the killing of children. It varies a little
3bit between unit and unit. So I preferred this phrase
4"pattern". It is not completely uniform. But it is a
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But not very systematic?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is a standardized pattern and I think it allows us to
8say that this was a part of a system.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 26, the first three lines, we are dealing now with an
10explicit order of Himmler which, I suppose, is of
11significance. You say this is an explicit of
12Himmler. "All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be
13driven into the swamp"?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] You say: "From a radio telegraph text we can read this".
16Now, what is your source for that? Is it the actual radio
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, the radio telegraph text is quoted in the wording of
19the branch(?) record. The whole files of the branch
20record are kept in the State archive of [German]. I spent
21two days this summer actually to read this source and
22I can assure you that this document is in the files of
23this particular court case.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it an actual radio telegraph text or something recorded
25by or ----
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, actually it is a copy ----
1 Q. [Mr Irving] --- remembered by?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- of the radio telegraph text. The original is kept in
3the military archive in Feiberg.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You have not provided the German text for us so it is ----
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I have not provided the German text for it.
6 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, we have got the text.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to see it.
8 MR IRVING: It is quite important.
9 MR RAMPTON: I do not know which report this comes from, it
10might be Longerich, it might be Browning. I really cannot
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is important because I think it is
13Mr Irving's present position that there was never a stage
14when all Jews were ordered to be shot.
15 MR RAMPTON: Which document is it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is note 119, top of page 26.
17 MR RAMPTON: Yes, well, then the date is 1st August, same day
18as the Muller order.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not in N1, I do not think.
20 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is page 48.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I missed it.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, 48. That is it, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have looked at this before.
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what this document is, mind, but the
25witness could tell us that, I expect.
26 MR IRVING: It appears to be a genuine carbon copy, does it
1not? Yes, a carbon copy of a document.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I recall that in the -- I have seen the copy. This
3is here a [German]. This is the German, the document,
4this is the standard German form for a radio message. So
5the document is there and I have seen that and there is no
6doubt that this is authentic.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] It is very difficult to cross-examine on this document
8because it is so skimpy.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have to put your case.
10 MR IRVING: I have to.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that Himmler ----
12 MR IRVING: Are you satisfied that this document accurately
13reflects an order of Heinrich Himmler?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. He was there, he was there. At this stage he was in
15the appropriate marches.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Who is the SS Obersturmfuhrer who is an adjutant who has
17signed this document, to your knowledge?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is in the -- the court managed to identify this man.
19I cannot recall the name at the moment.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Was he on Himmler's staff on or somebody else's staff?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is -- no, he is the adjutant of the Reitenabteilung.
22The Reitenabteilung, this is the cavalry, the mounted
23cavalry, battalion actually of this SS cavalry regiment.
24The name of the adjutant is known and I just not recall
25the name at the moment, but he was identified in the court
1 Q. [Mr Irving] The question I am asking is, he is not Himmler's adjutant
2who is sending the order?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but Himmler was there. At this time he actually gave
4the order verbally and this was then included into this
5telegram and the message was sent.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] What was the range of this order, do you think? Did it
7relate just to the activities of this particular mounted
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, this relates ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Mounted troop?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This relates clearly to the killing, systematic killing,
12of Jews in the -- this was what they called a pacification
13action, and these are the guidelines given for this
14pacification action to actually, well, clean the
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. So we are actually referring to the Pripyat marshes
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am trying to be as objective as possible. I cannot say
19that this is -- you cannot read it as a general, you
20cannot read it as a general order.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] My question was, what was the range of the order? Was it
22just directed to this one troop, this one mounted troop,
23all Jews within their reach, presumably?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, it was actually an order given here to the mounted
25elements, so that is the best translation of the cavalry
26Regiment 2. These were about, I think, 800 or 1,000 men
1and they carried then out this action. And you can see
2I have quoted this on page 25, this was part of the action
3to kill, in which they killed 14,178 Jews, as they
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the scale of partisan warfare in the
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] At this stage, at this very early stage, at the beginning
8of August, there was actually the scale of partisan
9activity in the Pripyat marshes was low. What actually
10happened was that some actually, well, some soldiers of
11the Red Army managed to get into the Pripyat marshes and
12tried to hide there. But the partisan activity was at
13this stage relatively low compared with what would happen
14in '42 or'43.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Had Marshal Stalin issued early in July a broadcast
16proclamation to the entire Russian civilian population to
17rise up in arms against the invaders?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is true, but, on the other hand, they were no
19organization and preparation made for this kind war, so
20they had to improvise that and they were at this stage not
21actually able to fight an organized partisan warfare
22against the Germans.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the suggestion is, just so that it is
24clear, that the 14,000 odd Jews who were shot following
25this order were justifiably shot because they were
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, the report makes a distinction between partisans and
2Jews, so they were -- it is clear that the Jews were
3killed in the course of anti-partisan action, but they
4were not identified as partisans.
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not making that suggestion. The only
6substantive question I do want answered properly is what
7was the scope of the order to kill all the Jews? Was it
8just all the Jews within the operational area of this one
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, the problem is, this is not a mounted troop. It is
11the fighting elements of a regiment.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] "Reitenabteilung" is a mounted troop.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, so this is, well, quite, this has quite a size, this
14mounted element, and this is one document we have where
15Himmler is very explicit. We know that he travelled
16through the occupied territories quite frequently and here
17we have actually this document, and I think it is a clear
18indication what he was saying to the other units during
19these other visits.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Here we have one case where we actually have written
22evidence for that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but you appreciate the reason I am asking the
24question, Dr Longerich, is if a signal is shown to us
25saying that Himmler has ordered all the Jews are to be
26shot, we want to know is he talking about all the Jews
1within the Third Reich or just all the Jews within
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have your answer about that. It is
5 MR IRVING: If the answer is clear. Very well. Page 35,
6please. Does this not strike you as remarkable,
7Dr Longerich, that every time we get an order from the
8Fuhrer, that there is a Fuhrer befehl, it turns out to be
9testimony 17 or 20 or 30 years later and there is nothing
10at all in the documents, even though we have seen
11documents like the one we have just been looking at, which
12talk about Himmler orders, there is nothing of a similar
13quality talking about a Hitler order?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] You are referring to a particular part of this page or?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 35, line 1.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, well, to make this -- I mean, I think I made my point
17very clear. I am trying here in this report, I am trying
18to show you that this was carried out on a systematic
19basis and, in order to link these events with Hitler's
20role, I think we -- this has been said yesterday -- have
21this Muller letter from 1st August which shows us that
22Hitler was quite aware of what was going on because he got
23on a continuous basis, he get the Einsatzgruppen meldung.
24And I think this is quite clear that he was informed about
26 I do not say, did not say, that I have here an
1explicit order with a letter head of Adolf Hitler and the
2signature which says that he orders the killing of the
3Russian Jews, but I think it has been established here,
4quite clearly, that he was informed about these events.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to labour the point too much, but we do have
6now, and we have been having it for the last four or five
7weeks, document after document of this quality which
8incriminates Himmler and people like him, but not one
9single document of equal quality which incriminates
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry to intervene again. You
12have made that point many, many times. It is accepted by
13Dr Longerich that there is not a Hitler Befehl in relation
14to these shootings. He has made it absolutely clear why
15he says that Hitler knew and approved what was going on.
16 MR IRVING: On the basis of the Muller document ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no point in asking that same
18question again and again. I know your point, there is not
19a Hitler order that anyone has found, so you need not ask
20that question again. I have the point. There is not a
22 MR IRVING: Although, logically, there should be one found.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, there are all sorts of reasons why
24there may not be one, but there is not one. That is the
25point and you can, of course, develop that in your closing
26submissions. There no point in going on asking the
1question because you get the same answer that I think I
2have heard three times from this witness already.
3 MR IRVING: The actual question was, is it not remarkable it is
4always testimony 20 or 30 years after the event, like this
5one here, which links it to a Hitler order which is
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I would not agree this is, you cannot say this is all
8self-serving testimony because some of the people
9interrogated are eyewitnesses, but this report is about
10the systematic nature. The first report we discussed
11yesterday is about Hitler's role. The aim of the report
12is to show you, give you an idea, about the systematic
13nature of this warfare. It is not the intention of this
14part of this report to actually prove Hitler's role.
15I mean, it is not the focus of the point. It is the one
16we discussed yesterday.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] For example, in this same paragraph, 3.3.2, if you would
18just go back over the page to the bottom of page 34, it is
19the indication that the order came from Ohlendorf. Was
20Ohlendorf dead at the time of this testimony?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Dead?
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. In 1969 he was dead, was he not?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. He was hanged in '48, was he not?
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you ever get to see the private papers of Ohlendorf?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, they are not, I think, as far as I am aware, they are
26not publicly accessible.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] His widow has them.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. I know -- yes, sorry.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] So once again they are saying, "Well, the other person who
4knew, he is dead, unfortunately", so it is a very shaky
5kind of testimony, is it not, so far as Adolf's
6responsibility is concerned?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is, I mean, what I did here, I based this on an
8analysis of the ereignismeldung and on -- and, in
9addition, on the basis of evidence we have from
10testimonies. I think it is my obligation, my duty, to
11look at this testimony. I just cannot ignore them.
12Ohlendorf made, and I mention in the report here, he made
13quite remarkable statements. He never -- I mean, he was
14hanged by the Americans, but he never actually disputed
15the fact that his Einsatzgruppen killed 10,000 of Jews. I
16mean, this was, because this was confronted with the
17evidence which the ereignismeldung contained ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] We do not dispute that either here.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- he did not dispute it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] But you also rely on the ereignismeldung, but you said
21yesterday that only one of them shows it was sent to the
22Party Chancellory in Munich which is not exactly proof
23that Hitler saw it, is it?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, we went through this when I think I made it quite
25clear that not every ereignismeldung has a list of
26distribution, and I do not have a full picture of to whom
1it was sent. Munich and Berlin, I made this quite clear
2that the Munich office had a liaison office in Berlin, so
3I do not think this is a ----
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Hitler was in East Prussia, was he not?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but, of course, then Bormann was constantly in his --
6it was Bormann policy to be constantly in close with
7Hitler so in order to inform him about everything which he
8thought he has to be informed of.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you go to page 40, please, the third paragraph? This
10is a general statement which is quite useful. In the fall
11of 1941, the autumn of 1941, you say: "The Nazi regime
12began to deport Jews from Central Europe into the Eastern
13European ghettos. From statements by leading
14representatives of the regime it becomes clear that at
15this point in time the intention was to deport these
16people further to the East following upon a victory over
17the Soviet Union".
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that still your position now?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you found it, my Lord?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
23 MR IRVING: That is a very useful summary of the position in
24the autumn of 1941. You are talking about September,
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And at that time the Nazi leadership, Hitler, Himmler,
2everybody else was talking, was ----
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, to deport these people further to the East, and what
4would happen to the people then further in the East? I do
5not have -- my argument here is that this intention to
6send them further to the East had clearly genocidal
7implication. They would perish there in the East, but
8they postponed this because originally they thought they
9had this area under control in the autumn of 1941. Now
10they realised they had not won the war, so they sent these
11people first to ghettos in the East and with the intention
12to send them further to the east, let them perish until
14 Q. [Mr Irving] You quote the Greiser letter, do you not, on the following
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] For instance, the Greiser letter, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can I just offer a different translation of that
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, where is that, please?
20 Q. [Mr Irving] The different translation that I offer is in the little
21bundle, page 13.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] "The Fuhrer wishes that from the West to the East" -- do
24you want to follow the German one?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just a minute. I have not found this.
26 MR IRVING: This is September 18th 1941.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I think is not -- yes, it is, 84.
2 MR IRVING: "The Fuhrer wishes that from the" -- I would like
3this one actually put in the bundle actually. It is a
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is in there. I think it is 84 or
6am I wrong?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] 84.
8 MR IRVING: Mine is, I think, a slightly preferable translation
9of a rather complicated sentence. "The Fuhrer wishes that
10from the West to the East, the Altreich" the old Reich,
11"and the Protectorate be emptied and freed of Jews as
12soon as possible. Initially, therefore, and during the
13course of this year, if possible, I am striving as a first
14stage to transport the Jews out of the Altreich and the
15Protectorate into the Eastern territories newly
16accessioned by the Reich two years ago, and then to deport
17them even further to the East early next year. I intend
18to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and
19Protectorate into the Litzmannstadt ghetto for the winter
20which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate them".
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I think there are two mistakes in your translation.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Right.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] First of all, you translated, it said in the text here,
24"nachsten Fruhjahr", next spring, you said "early next
26 Q. [Mr Irving] "Fruhjahr" is not necessarily spring. "Fruhling" is
1spring, is it not? "Fruhjahr" is ----
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. "Fruhjahr" and "Fruhling" is the same. It has the
3same meaning. "Early next year" is quite misleading, but
4"early next year" could be read as January, for
6 The second mistake you make, if you look at the
7last sentence here, or not the last sentence, the sentence
8before the last sentence, it says in the German text:"Ich
9beabsichtige, in das Litzmannstadter Getto, das, wie ich
10hore, an Raum aufnahmefahig ist, rund 60,000 Juden des
11Altreichs und des Prtektorats fur den Winter zu
13 So you say here in your translation, "I intend
14to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and
15Protectorate in the to Litzmannstadter ghetto for the
16winter which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate
17them". So in the German text it is only -- the German
18text only says which is as I translated it here in my
19translation which has at best -- so it does not say in the
20text, in the German text -- in the German text it only
21says it is "aufnahmefahig". It does not say that it is
22specifically "aufnahmefahig had space for them". It only
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, if it says "an Raum aufnahmefahig", surely, the
25inference is that it has adequate space for this task?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but it also could receive more people.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Now, what is the purpose of that letter from Himmler
2to Greisler? Is it camouflage or can we believe what he
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think one can basically believe what he is writing.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So at this time, September 18th, there is no homicidal
6intent towards the European Jews?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I said this, I think I made this quite clear in my
8statement: "From statements by leading representatives of
9the regime it is clear at this point in time the intention
10was to deport these people further to the East following
11up a victory over the Soviet Union". So I draw the
12conclusion from the sentence it was the intention to send
13them further to the East.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but there is no camouflage intended in the document.
15There are none of these camouflage words we have heard so
16much about in that paragraph. What Himmler wrote to
17Greiser there is meant, the German Jews, the European
18Jews, are going to be shipped out to the East. No one is
19paying much attention to what is going to happen when they
20get there. No one cares really what happens to them in
21their new existence?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] So any decision must have come after that in September
241941. It is an important document, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, the document says that the Jews are sending, are
26sent to the ghetto and then in the next spring they will
1be sent further to the East. So that ----
2 Q. [Mr Irving] If you go to page 42 of your report: "On 6th October
3Hitler emphasised that all Jews from the Protectorate
4needed to be 'removed' - and not into the
5Generalgouvernement first, but - 'straight on to the
6East'. That is also part of the same kind of picture, is
7it not, the East?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, I think that you and I are agreed that sometimes the
10Germans used the phrase "the East" in a sinister sense, is
11that right? They say "the East" and, in fact, they mean
12to perdition, to their ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but here I think, I am in a way very cautious in
14interpreting the language here, and I say I think it is
15meant here that they are simply sent to the East, to
16ghettos and to camps to the East. So the East is here,
17obviously, the Generalgouvernement.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] We are going to be looking this afternoon at some
19documents about people who were sent to Auschwitz ready
20for being sent on to the East or, at any rate, and
21obviously I am going to be asking your interpretation of
22those documents ----
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well...
24 Q. [Mr Irving] --- which is quite an important point.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We are here in a phase where actually in three waves
26German Jews are sent to ghettos in occupied Poland and the
1occupied Soviet Union. The first wave goes to Losch, the
2second wave to Riga and Minsk and the third wave in the
3there spring of 1942 goes to ghettos in the district of
4Lublin. What has happened to the people is they are not,
5in general, killed on the spot. So they survive for a
6couple of weeks, probably a couple of months, until spring
71942 and then they killed them on a systematic basis by
8sending them to extermination camps or by gassing them.
9 So we are in a kind of transitional phase here
10we they are still not prepared to kill then on the spot,
11except the six trains we discussed yesterday.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But can I just ask you this? It is not just
13German Jews that are being talked of in 6th October
14document, is it? It is all European Jews.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, Germany is here in the sense of a greater Germany,
16so this includes the annexed territories, Austria, the
17Czech Jews as well which is a project of ----
18 MR IRVING: Just in a vague sense, a general question, did the
19Nazis in some way regard the European Jews as being more
20valuable material than the Russian Jews, Eastern Jews?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know what you mean with "valuable material".
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, preserved -- there is a point in preserving them
23whereas they did not care what happened to the Eastern
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Generally speaking, they made a kind of distinction
26between the Eastern Jews and the Western Jews.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] It was never actually spelt out in a document, but this is
2the inference we can draw, is it not, from the document?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, it is spelt out in documents but they made, in
4general, in their anti-Semitic -- in the anti-Semitic way
5they looked at this since they make this different
7 Q. [Mr Irving] I am going to ask one more brief question before the
8adjournment, my Lord. Page 45, paragraph 15. You say:
9"Rademacher still assumed at the end of October 1941 that
10the Serbian Jews would be 'removed by water transport into
11the transition camps'", the "Auffanglager im Osten", "in
12the East". So there was this kind of perception among the
13top level Nazis involved in the programme, in the system,
14that there were reception camps in the East to which these
15European Jews were going to be shipped.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I only say that Rademacher in this letter obviously
17assumed that they would be removed by ship in the
18transition camps in the East. I am not, I cannot, I do
19not want to comment on general perception of this, but
20I think Rademacher was probably convinced that this would
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, over the page, paragraph 16, you raise the matter
23which I have just raised a couple of minutes ago: "Was
24the deportation of Jews 'to the East' at this time already
25a metaphor for the planned murder in the extermination
26camps?" You say, quite frankly: "The state of
1contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence".
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what he said. It is a transitional
3phase. I think that is his evidence.
4 MR IRVING: Yes.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 2 o'clock.
6 (Luncheon adjournment)
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
9 MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, I can say the
10Defendants' solicitors have very diligently got on to the
11Wolff document and there is one minor snag over the date,
12but I am sure we will have it at the end of the weekend.
13I cannot do better than that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say they got on to it, is it
15physically in court?
16 MR RAMPTON: Munich cannot find any Wolff testimony for the
17date, which is 11th May 1952.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am glad we have----
19 MR IRVING: They are responding positively.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- tried to find out what the position
22 MR IRVING: I just hope I did not leave anything important out,
23of course, but I am sure I did not.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we all remember that I would like to know
25what the outcome of it all is.
26 MR IRVING: I think it is an important document and, as your
1Lordship knows, I relied on it quite heavily at the time.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: From your point of view, it is an important
4 MR RAMPTON: I do not understand why it is, if I may say so at
5this stage, so terribly important in Mr Irving's mind if
6the testimony of von dem Bach-Zelewski must be dismissed
7out of hand because it is postwar.
8 MR IRVING: You have pre-empted me.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is another point about it which I think
10we ought all to bear in mind, which is that it was not
11actually available to you, Mr Irving, as I understand it,
12when you wrote your book because I think you said it had
13been supplied by a lawyer in Dusseldorf.
14 MR IRVING: It very definitely was, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was? I see.
16 MR IRVING: Oh yes. That is part of my original research.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it was not in your discovery, was it?
18 MR IRVING: It was in a big box called documents on the
19Judenfrager which they had copied in its entirety.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you told me this morning it was not
21in your discovery.
22 MR RAMPTON: The note was, but not the document.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will revert to that on Monday.
24 MR IRVING: This is one reason of course why I mentioned
25Bach-Zelewski because, if my use of Karl Wolff is impugned
26as a source, who did not have the death of millions or
1thousands of people on his conscience ...
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, back to Dr Longerich.
3 MR IRVING: Back to the document, my Lord. The progress we
4have made is we are now at page 40 or 45 of an 80 page
5document approximately, so we have managed to chew our way
6halfway through the document.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the bit that needs more chewing is the
8latter part rather than the earlier part but there we
9are. Let us press on.
10 MR IRVING: Have I heard that before in connection with other
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, are you familiar with a Canadian
14historian Michael Marrus?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] He is a reputable historian, is he not?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Absolutely.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] He has written an article on the history of the Holocaust
19in the Journal of Modern History. I am just going to read
20one and a half sentences to you. He cautions that
21Hitler's rhetoric about the Jews should not be seen as
22what he calls a preview of Auschwitz. He adds "The Nazi
23leader always spoke in the most cataclysmic terms, was
24forever calling for the most drastic action, the most
25ruthless stroke". Would you like to comment on Marrus's
26view therefore that Hitler sometimes was a loud mouth?
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you read Marrus's book?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This was a quotation one and a half sentences from an
3article, I cannot recall-----.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a book, I think.
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] He has written a book and articles.
6 MR IRVING: It is the Journal of Modern History.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot recall the content at the moment so I am really
8hesitating to comment on a very short quote from either a
9book or a lengthy article with about 25 or so pages.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Suppose I said it now. Suppose I said it and not Michael
11Marrus, that the Nazi leader Hitler always spoke in the
12most cataclysmic terms and was forever calling for the
13most drastic action, the most ruthless stroke, would you
14say that I was wrong?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is a very general statement. I would see more
16evidence. To which quotations are you referring? Can you
17give me some help here?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] The famous quotation throughout the war where he said
19September 1st 1939, did he not? That one.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you refer, for instance, to speeches about vernichtung
21ausrotten which he repeated, yes, then it is of course
22true. Of course he was a politician and he made sure that
23he addressed the right audience. On some occasions he
24would just use drastic language, but on other occasions he
25would be very different. It always depends on the
26circumstances, on the audience he was addressing.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Like most politicians, they say what the audience wants to
2hear. One of the basic rules of politics, is that right?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot lecture on the basic rules of politics. I think
4I should only refer to the Nazi regime.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Just going back briefly to page 40, this general
6statement, you said in the middle of the third paragraph
7that, "In the fall of 1941 the Nazi regime began to deport
8the Jews from central Europe to the Eastern European
9ghettoes. From statements by leading representatives of
10the regime it becomes clear that at this point the
11intention was to deport the people further to the East
12upon a victory over the Soviet Union rather than
13exterminating them where they were".
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The fact that I said to deport them does not of course
15exclude that at the next step they were going to liquidate
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Do you mean, by saying that, that at this time there
18were only orders for the deportation, there were no orders
19for extermination at that time, German government orders?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] When you refer to orders, then the orders were clear about
21the deportation. But of course it has to be seen in the
22context of a wider policy, and I think the aim of this
23policy was in the end to bring about a physical end of the
24life of these human beings.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] You are familiar with the fact that your colleagues, for
26example Professor Browning, suggest that the German
1government had decided on extermination by the autumn of
21941 and that deportation was for the purpose of
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There is a certain kind of disagreement among historians
5about this. We are in a research process and there is an
6agreement. Some historians would suggest summer 1941.
7Christopher Browning among others would say autumn 1941.
8I have a different theory about this decision making
9process. I think some of the decisions were made, but not
10all decisions were made at this stage.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you reject the judgment in the Eichmann trial in
12Jerusalem which said that the deportation of the central
13European Jews to Riga and Minsk which began around this
14time was specifically for the purpose of extermination?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think if I should comment on the wording of the Eichmann
16trial, I should have the text of the wording in front of
17me. But, in general, it was not the intention, according
18to my research, to kill these people immediately after
19arrival. There is of course a difference. Of course, in
20the long term the intention was to let these people, let
21us say it this way, perish in these areas, but there was
22no policy, according to my research, at this relatively
23early stage to kill them immediately after arrival. We
24discussed yesterday the case of the six trains and
25Himmler's reactions to that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] To pick up something you said a few seconds ago, you said
1there is still something of a dispute, quite a genuine
2dispute, between historians of one school and historians
3of the other school, and it would be quite improper, would
4it not, to call the people who disagree with you a
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Absolutely. There is a certain kind of disagreement but,
7on the other hand, we all respect each other's views.
8I would not call anybody, any of my colleagues like
9Christopher Browning, a Holocaust denier. It would be
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You save that phrase for somebody whose views you do not
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. That is for somebody who just makes general sweeping
14statements, just not accepting historical facts, not
15basing his expertise on thoroughly reading and analysis of
16documents. One has to make a strong point here. There is
17a strong difference between a discussion among colleagues,
18among historians, and between historians and Holocaust
19deniers, if you want to say so.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Longerich, am I right in understanding you
21to be saying that the disagreement between historians is
22as to when there was an transition from deportation to
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Not whether there was?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is that correct?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The question is that the dispute is about whether it is
3possible to establish a certain day when Hitler made the
4decision, is it possible and, if it is possible, when was
5this specific decision.
6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] It is the timing?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, the timing. Nobody in our profession would dispute,
8come to this absurdity to dispute actually that the
10 MR IRVING: My Lord, it may help your Lordship if I say that
11during the course of the afternoon I will occasionally ask
12that question, does this dispute constitute a Holocaust
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is a perfectly proper question.
15 MR IRVING: If you think it is not proper, then of course
16I would not do so. It is a piecemeal approach but it may
17be helpful. Paragraph 1 at the bottom of page 40 -- well,
18it is not any particular paragraph. What I am asking is
19this. Do you agree that all the German government actions
20that you describe in this following section, the beginning
21of the deportations, that is section A, all the actions
22and statements of Himmler and Heydrich and Eichmann, were
23pursuant to a programme of deportation and not a programme
24of extermination? That is the first question. I am only
25referring to section A, the beginning of the deportation.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Up to page 48.
1 MR IRVING: Everything in that section was pursuant to a
2programme of deportation and not extermination?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] (After a pause) I have to look through the section.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want an ill considered reply. Just take your
5time. It is not a trick question.
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I think as a summary of this paragraph of this
7section on page 46, paragraph 16 where I said, the state
8of contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence
9for the conclusion that at this time the deportation was
10already a matter for the planned murder and extermination
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think this is my view.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] To put it another way, you agree that all the evidence you
15introduce in that section A does not prove a programme of
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I have answered this question.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. The answer is yes?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is yes?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The answer is yes.
22 MR IRVING: Thank you. Paragraph 2, we are now looking at a
23man called Uebelhoer, who is the head of the
24administration of the district of Lodz. Are you aware
25that, in addition to Uebelhoer, there were other local
26German authorities like Lohse who also protested about the
1plan to dump central European Jews in their districts, in
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure that Lohse protested. Kuger, for instance,
4had some views about that. I think the best is you give
5me the reference of the document and I comment on the
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, it is a bit difficult if we have to keep on looking
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure what the relevance of the
10question is at the moment.
11 MR IRVING: The relevance of the question is this. If you are
12in charge of a district like Uebelhoer and you are in
13charge of the administration there, and you are protesting
14about having European Jews dumped in your back garden,
15this clearly presupposes that they are not going to be
16exterminated, does it not, because, if they are going to
17be exterminated, then you do not have the problem of
18housing and feeding them?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is the beginning of the discussions then which went
20on in the Warthegau, what shall we do with these people?
21It becomes then clear, if you read further the next
22section, that at this stage they made a kind of agreement,
23which meant that they would kill the local Jews in order
24to make room for the Jews who were coming in from Europe.
25I am referring in this paragraph to deportations and I am
26not saying here that at this stage it is clear from the
1documentation that deportation meant the killing of those
2who were deported on the spot. But, if you look into the
3next paragraph, it becomes clear what I mean here is that
4they took the decision to kill the local Jews in order to
5make room for the incoming German Jews.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am tackling this problem systematically and logically.
7If Uebelhoer, and as we know from other documents Lohse
8but take just the case of Uebelhoer, if he is protesting
9at having European Jews dumped in his district, it is
10because he assumes that they are going to be kept alive,
11and have to be fed and housed there. He is not assuming
12they are going to be exterminated, is he, the European
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] He is just faced with a task to take in his ghetto 60,000
15at this stage sent to Germany. This is the task he was
16facing, and he is complaining about that. Obviously at
17this stage he is not given the order to kill these people
18on the spot. This is my argument. It is a transitional
20 Q. [Mr Irving] As you said in this section A, there is no evidence of
21extermination, it is all just deportation measures being
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This deals with deportation. I speak only about the Jews
24from central Europe.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 6 on page 42, this is at a meeting in Prague on
26October 10th 1941, at which Eichmann was also present. Do
1you agree that, when Heydrich suggested that Nebe and
2Rasch could take Jews into the camps of communist
3prisoners, this was not a veiled suggestion they could be
4exterminated in those camps?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think he is referring to the next stage of deportations
7 Q. [Mr Irving] So it was not a prerequisite to the extermination of those
8prisoners coming in?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure about this because he was just talking about
10the ghetto in Lodz. I think this remark about Nebe and
11Rasch is probably the next stage, what will happen in next
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but it is not camouflage for the extermination of the
14people coming into those camps?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The problem is that we have not identified these camps.
16We do not know actually which camps he is speaking at this
17moment. Probably he is talking about a plan for a new
18camp which did not exist at this time. I have no idea how
19to relate this, how to interpret this one sentence.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it seems to me that you have
21really got the answer from Dr Longerich which you want for
22your purposes. He said this is all talking of the
23deportation of the European Jews, and it did not go beyond
24that at this stage, according to him. Different things
25were affecting the Russian Jews at this time, but do you
26need to trawl through it?
1 MR IRVING: No, except that on each occasion I wanted to ask if
2each of the individual elements constituted a Holocaust
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think you have got what you want.
5 MR IRVING: Paragraph 9 on page 44, just to make absolutely
6certain, "The deportation of the Jews from the German
7Reich in the autumn of 1941 and the ensuing winter
8proceeded on the orders of Hitler". Will you just confirm
9that those orders were only orders for deportation and not
10for extermination, not even in a camouflage sense.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has said that already. We are still in
12section A here.
13 MR IRVING: In that case we will zip forwards to page 48.
14Paragraph 2, just as a matter of interest, Tiergarten
15Strasse, after which the action T4 was named, was not part
16of Hitler's headquarters, was it?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The building belonged to Hitler's Chancellery of the
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Did the Chancellery of the Fuhrer, despite its name, have
20any close contact with Hitler? Where was it situated?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This Chancellery of the Fuhrer was situated in Berlin. It
22was first of all during the 30s mainly responsible for
23dealing with petitions and things like that, which were
24addressed to Hitler. But it became in the course of 1939,
251940, a clandestine, let us call it, operational centre
26for the killing actions, the euthenasia programme.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Was this because the doctors who carried it out formally
2had to have petitions for clemency for carrying out
3criminal acts? Was that the connection?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry?
5 Q. [Mr Irving] The doctors who were required to carry out these killings
6of the mentally sick and so on, they had to have clemency
7in advance for car committing a criminal act?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. They had this famous letter Hitler signed.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] He actually signed an order for the mass killing, did he
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, he did.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] But this was the only connection between Hitler and the
13Chancellery of the Fuhrer, the fact that it had his name
14on its letter head, but it was geographically situated
15somewhere else. It was in Berlin and Tiergarten Strasse.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you take a street plan of Berlin in 1939, you will see
17that the buildings of government were widely spread
18throughout the district of Tiergarten and the district of
19Wilmerstov in Berlin, so the idea that all was situated in
20one complex would be wrong.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] It would be wrong, would it, in your opinion, to draw any
22false conclusion from the fact that this agency was called
23the Chancellery of the Fuhrer?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] To draw ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Would it be dangerous to draw a wrong conclusion from the
26fact that the Chancellery is called the Chancellery of the
1Fuhrer? Would it be wrong to conclude that therefore it
2was Hitler's own personal instrument?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It was definitely Hitler's, it was one of the five
4Chancelleries which actually reported directly to Hitler.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it was common ground that Hitler
6had initiated the euthanasia programme.
7 MR IRVING: Yes. I am looking at just how closely connected
8because the euthanasia programme, the operatives in the
9programme, as your Lordship is probably familiar, later on
10became involved in selling their expertise, if I can put
11like that, in the gas vans.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am sorry, I thought you were talking
13about the euthenasia programme in your last question.
14 MR IRVING: I am trying to break the link between Hitler and
15the Fuhrer's Chancellery, if I can put it like that.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Hitler had five Chancelleries. This is one of them. They
17were directly reporting to Hitler. There was a strong
18direct relationship between -- Hitler had his own
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen the files of the Chancellery of the Fuhrer?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have seen some of the files, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Are they bulging with correspondence between Adolf and
23Philip Buhle or Viktor Brach?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I tried to explain this earlier. This was originally an
25office which dealt with petitions sent to the Fuhrer and
26things like that. Then it became, in the course of the
1euthanasia programme, a clandestine operation centre to
2carry out the final solution in a way of this question,
3the euthanasia question.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you now answer my question?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The character of the Chancellery in, let us say, 38 and in
61940, if you compare these two years, is completely
7different. It became a killing centre, and the fact that
8it was in Tiergarten Strasse 4, it was of course a
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Will you now answer my question? From your knowledge of
11the files of this Chancellery, are they bulging with
12correspondence between Adolf Hitler and the head of
13Fuhrer's Chancellery, namely Philip Buhle?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We do not have the complete files, particularly all the
15files about the euthanasia programme, except some
16splinters, are lost. The files do not give us a clear
17view about the whole operation, about the Chancellery. It
18is basically boring stuff about people who are writing
19petitions to Hitler. The Chancellery dealt with the
20petition obviously on behalf of Hitler.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, let me go straight to the bottom line -- otherwise
22I am sure his Lordship will ask me to do so -- and say
23that, when the T4 action then moved over into running the
24gas vans, is there any evidence whatsoever of a link
25between Hitler and the Chancellery in this connection?
26Any documentary evidence that Hitler got personally
1involved with the gas van programme?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think there is no such evidence, but the very fact that
3Hitler stopped the euthanasia programme in 1941 and that
4more than 100 people employed in the euthanasia programme
5then went to the district of Lublin and actually were used
6as the key personnel for the killing of the 1.5 million
7Jews, probably more, of the generalgouvernement, this
8gives us a clear idea of the involvement of Hitler. The
9Party Chancellery did only report to Hitler, so I am
10asking you who actually gave the order to the Party
11Chancellery to move this man from the euthanasia
13 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sorry, you are saying Party Chancellery, you do not
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I mean the Chancellery of the Fuhrer. So actually who
16gave the order to this man to actually take on this new
17task in Poland?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] This is of course pure supposition on your part, is it
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Based on the fact that this was Hitler's Chancellery, the
21office which worked for Hitler.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Philip Buhle, who was the head of the Chancellery, what
23was his rank? Was he Reichsleiter?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Which is one rung down from Reichsminister?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Reichsleiter is the highest rank in the party.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Did he have an SS rank?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not remember at the moment.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] These gas vans -- I am now on page 49, my Lord, paragraphs
45 to 8 -- whose existence we accept, were they only
5killing Jews or were they originally designed for clearing
6out the inmates of the Soviet mental hospitals?
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is common ground too, is it not?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. They were primarily used for the killing of Polish
9inmates of these institutions.
10 MR IRVING: Was any plan made to build these gas vans before
11the beginning of Barbarossa, or was it a kind of ad hoc
12killing method that was developed during the Barbarossa
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] An interim experimental method of killing people that was
16developed in the Barbarossa campaign?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The gas vans actually exist since 1940, so they were used
18in the Warthegau and by Sonderkommando Langer to kill the
19Polish inmates of institutions for disabled persons in
201940. Then in late summer of 1941 they actually
21transferred this technology to the East.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Are there any documents that actually show Sonderkommando
23Langer operating at Chelmno?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, there are.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Documents as opposed to eyewitnesses?
26 MR RAMPTON: Again I have to say I thought this was common
2 MR IRVING: I am sorry, I am not going to question that.
3 MR RAMPTON: I did not think there was any dispute at all about
4the slaughter of 97,000 people between December and
5whenever it was, May.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, and indeed that is true also, I think,
7of Treblinka and Sobibor, is it not?
8 MR RAMPTON: I think so too.
9 MR IRVING: There is dispute about the scale.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, up to a point that is true.
11 MR IRVING: Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is no future in challenging
13Sonderkommando Langer's recollection, is there?
14 MR IRVING: There is only point in disputing what
15Sonderkommando Langer was up to. Are you familiar with
16the fact that it was also apparently flown, according to
17Brightman, to take part in operations, I think Novgarod?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. This is the link between the Warthegau killings and
19the killings in Russia because we know from actually, it
20is the intercepts I think, we know that Himmler summoned
21the Sonderkommando to Novgarod where they killed the
22inmates of a local home for disabled people. This is an
23essential part of the history of the Chelmno extermination
24camp. This is the link.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Does not the document show that the Sonderkommando was
26flown to Novgarod?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] How could they have put their van in a plane?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I did not say that they used a van. They killed the
4people obviously with bottles.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] By some other means?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, with bottles, gas in bottles.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] They did not only use gas vans then. Page 51 paragraphs,
810 to 11.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Paragraph 10 are you going to now, did you
10say? 10. We can start with paragraph 10.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
12 MR IRVING: You refer on line 4 to 600 Soviet prisoners of war
13being gassed. Is that right?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] At Auschwitz?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you just to have a look at one page from the
18book by the witness Professor van Pelt which I have
19included in the little bundle at page 12 this morning.
20The second paragraph is describing, the paragraph
21beginning with the words, "A major reason for the slow
22progress", it is describing the high mortality rate which
23has resulted from hygienic conditions in Auschwitz and
24Birkenhau. There it says in the month of October 1,255
25Soviets, meaning Soviet prisoners, had died from these
26hygienic conditions. He does not refer to gassings. What
1is the reason for this discrepancy, do you think?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think if you read the book carefully, you will find a
3reference to the killing. In the same chapter you will
4find a reference to the killing of 600.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Indeed. I wrote to him in Mat 1996 asking for an
6explanation for the discrepancy, that on one part he
7describes them as being gassed and here on this page he
8refers to them clearly as ----
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There is no discrepancy.
10 MR RAMPTON: This is a nonsense. I am sorry to have to keep
11standing up, but this is really such a waste of time.
12There is no inconsistency in this.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I can see that people were being gassed
14and people were dying for other reasons.
15 MR RAMPTON: Of course and van Pelt's evidence ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just looking it up.
17 MR RAMPTON: --- I say it in his absence and from memory was
18that either in August or September 1941 there was an
19experimental gassing with Zyklon-B of 600 Soviet prisoners
20and others at Auschwitz (i). There is no inconsistency in
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause a moment.
23 MR RAMPTON: I am afraid I have not got his report here.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have and I am just looking.
25 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, he gives ----
26 MR IRVING: My Lord, I am sorry, but I am going to have to
1stick with what I said, notwithstanding this renewed
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you have just I think challenged what
4Dr Longerich says about the first ----
5 MR IRVING: 600 who were gassed which is the standard story.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- gassing, well, actually 850, but leave
7that on one side, as having taken place in September or
8December 1941. You put to him something that Professor
9van Pelt wrote, I think, in order to support your
10challenge and I am just trying to find it but I cannot.
11 MR IRVING: Page 272 of his book, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know, but I am looking at his report which
13is possibly more complete, but I cannot immediately. We
14will have to move on. Perhaps somebody might be able to
15find the reference.
16 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, try page 105 of van Pelt's report.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. I would like to track
18it down whilst we are on this point. 105.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, 104, 105.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is in the area where I was looking.
21Yes. "It is important to note that after the war various
22witnesses confirmed that in early September the Germans
23had used block 11, the same block, as an experimental gas
25 MR RAMPTON: That was the execution block until the crematorium
26at Auschwitz (i) was converted into a gas chamber.
1 MR IRVING: My Lord ----
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So, I mean, van Pelt appears to be at one
3with Dr Longerich, I think it is fair to say?
4 MR RAMPTON: Absolutely, but there is no inconsistency between
5an experimental gassing in early September and deaths from
6something else in October. None at all.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this is right, Mr Irving, actually,
8is it not?
9 MR IRVING: I refer only to the fact that the evidence for the
10gassings is our familiar source, eyewitnesses, and the
11following sentence in the book which I quoted is -- I will
12read both sentences together -- "This contributed to the
13high mortality rate. In the month of October 1,255
14Soviets had died. None of this was welcome news to SS
15headquarters in Berlin where the prisoners, the Russian
16prisoners, were considered an asset." What are you
17gassing 600 assets for?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have Professor van Pelt's book in
20 MR IRVING: I do not have it in court, no, my Lord.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Which page is this in van Pelt's report?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: 105, I think it was.
23 MR RAMPTON: 104 and 105 of Professor van Pelt's report.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think let us press on.
25 MR IRVING: I will just press on and ask one relevant
26question. (To the witness): Dr Longerich, the source you
1relied on for the 600 prisoners being gassed and for the
2further 900 in December are the sources you have given in
3235, is that right?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] All secondary sources? There is nothing of a primary, no
6documentary source for that, is there?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think the statement of Brach is probably an eyewitness,
8partially an eyewitness statement.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 50, you say there were six gas vans. You say in
10paragraph 8, probably a total of six gas vans. Do you
11disagree with those who say the total was three, only
12three were ever built?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I am quite familiar with the Einsatzgruppen.
14I studied their material and I went through all evidence
15about the Einsatzgruppen, and my calculation is a minimum
16of six. There is probably, there is probably some
17material here mentioned or used by me which has probably
18not been available to others.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] They did drive around a lot, did they not, from one
20killing area to another?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. It is referring here to reports by the
22Einsatzgruppen. They say, "We have one or we have two
23vans at our disposal at a certain time" and you can easily
24come to the conclusion they had a minimum of six vans
25available. I did this for all of the four Einsatzgruppen
26and it is a minimum. They could have -- it could have
1been more but this is as far as I came.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 51, please, paragraph 11, we are looking at a visit
3by Adolf Eichmann allegedly to Auschwitz where he had a
4conversation with Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Where are we? In 55 in?
6 Q. [Mr Irving] As you comment, they disagree firmly on what the date of
7that visit was.
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] And, in fact, Eichmann in his own copy of Hoess's memoirs
10dismissed it as fantasy, that there never had been any
11such meeting. Are you familiar with that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, he also dismissed it -- he was very critical about
13Hoess in his interrogations in Israel. So we are at the
14moment at page?
15 Q. [Mr Irving] 51?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] 51, sorry.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] So you really have to decide which of these two criminals
18you believe, have you not?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I do not think we have to. You know, the history of
20the Holocaust is not or the decision-making or systematic
21character is not based on either the evidence of, you
22know, Hoess or Eichmann.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 12, you are talking about the construction of a
24monster crematorium with 32 chambers, furnished chambers.
25Can you confirm that your source for that is just an
26article by Gerlach in Holocaust and Genocide Studies?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it is an excellent piece of work. He spent about
2eight years to study the Holocaust in White Russia.
3I know him personally, discussed it with him. I think he
4put, he actually supported his article with a lot of
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any document, any one document, that proves there
7was a plan to construct an extermination facility there?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. This is a conclusion because they built this large
9crematorium with 32, 32 chamber furnished, and I think the
10magnitude of this installation gives you a clear
11indication that they were planning something very sinister
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it possible there is another non-sinister
14interpretation like it was going to become a central
15corpse disposal facility for the whole of the Russian
16Front or the whole of the area or partisan war or
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, in this article Gerlach dealt with the suggestion.
19I did not, I cannot remember the calculation, but the
20calculation, you know, the corpses they wanted to burn
21there is extraordinary. It exceeds, as far as I am aware,
22of the number of ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Was it ever built?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, it was a plan.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] A plan. Paragraph 13, I am a bit confused about what you
26are actually saying in this paragraph. Do you confirm
1that all the various preparations for mass killings you
2have described were designed for limited regional killing
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, can I comment on this? I think you have to put this
5in a context. What I am trying to say here is that in
6phase, autumn '41 to spring 1942, we have -- the killing
7is extended from the Soviet Union to other regions,
8particularly to the Warthegau, to the district of Lublin,
9to -- it also extended to Serbia and you have in this
10period the large mass killings in Riga and in Minsk.
11 You can, if you look at the transfers of the gas
12technology, the gas killing technology, to the East, you
13can see that exactly in these areas of the cities they are
14either building gas killing facilities or they are
15planning to build them.
16 Lodz, for Lodz you have Chelmo, the first wave,
1720,000 Jews deported to Lodz. They are building Chelmno,
18first of all, for there to kill the local Polish Jews.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] The killing of what?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Building a, well, Chelmno, the ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- a station for gas vans. Yes? Then we have evidence
23that in October 1941 they started to build Belzec, the
24extermination camp, in the district of Lublin. At the
25same time they were planning to send German Jews to
26Lublin. They were planning this to kill the local Jews.
1The same applies to Riga. We have the famous letter, 25th
2October 1941, where actually the Reisigerhauptamt a gas
3van -- a gas killing installations to Osland. There is
4this plan in Mogilev.
5 So this I think, in my view, gives a very clear
6picture. They are sending Jews from Central Europe to
7certain ghettos in the East and they are either making
8preparations for gas killing installation at exactly these
9places, or they have plans to do so.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the confusion because you said that in section A
11there was no indication during that same time span of any
12overall plan for extermination?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, the extermination, I am not sure whether I did not
14say this clearly enough, but the extermination, first of
15all, relates to the local Jews, so the non-German Jews,
16the Jews who lived there, the Jews of Lodz, the Jews of
17the district of Lublin, the Jews of Riga, the Jews of
18Minsk. They are not at this stage, they are not -- they
19are, obviously, not killing the German Jews on arrival.
20They are making preparations or are about to kill the
22 Q. [Mr Irving] To make space for the arrival of the German Jews?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you want to say it in a cynical way, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] So was this an integral part of the German plan to
25exterminate all Jews, is that what you are saying?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know whether you can call it a plan, but I think
1it gives you an idea of the systematic character of the
2operation. They are -- you have in 1941, autumn 1941, to
3spring 1942, the killing extended to certain areas, and
4these are exactly the areas where actually Jews from
5Germany are deported to or where they are waiting for the
6trains from Germany. I think if you look at this, if you
7tie the loose ends together, it gives you an idea that
8behind this is a system, an idea, to systematically
10 Q. [Mr Irving] So you are going back on your suggestion that section A,
11during the section A period of your report, there was no
12overall plan to exterminate?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because I think -- can I just check
14I understand -- your section A was really talking about
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Central European Jews.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Central European Jews?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] And the beginning of the systemized killing that you have
20described in October or thereabouts of 1941 applied still
21to the local Jews?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I think that is the way he is putting it. You may not
25 MR IRVING: Right. Perhaps I can clarify with another
26question. Are you saying then that all these
1preparations, the exporting of the gas technology, is part
2of an overall plan to kill all Jews under German control?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I am not trying to perceive as a kind of preplanned,
4of a kind of blueprint or a plan which actually existed
5in, let us say, 1940, 1941. I am trying to explain that
6the killing of the European Jews was a process which
7emerged, you know, step by step, and we are now in a phase
8where obviously the killing was extended to other parts of
9Europe than the Soviet Union.
10 My argumentation, I am simply very cautious.
11I am saying, here are the facts, we know what happened and
12I am really hesitant to say this was the result of a plan
13which existed before the killing actually started. I am
14just showing you, I am trying to lead you through the
15different phases of this policy.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Are you aware that the judgment in the Eichmann
17trial said that all these preparations were part of a plan
18to exterminate all Jews under German control.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, first of all, again I would like to have the verdict
20here, but, you see, the Eichmann trial was held in 1960,
21and we cannot ignore that we have historical research on
22the subject now for four decades and, of course, in some
23areas we have much, much more evidence than the Judges in
24the Eichmann case.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but I think somewhere else in your report you admit
26that we know virtually nothing. We still do not find any
1orders about extermination -- I do not want to turn up the
2actual page, but I could, I suppose, find it, I
3have flagged it -- and it struck me as odd that here we
4are, 55 years down the road, and we are still floundering
5in some respects. That is page 46, paragraph 16. Let us
6go briefly back to there where you admit that we do not
7know the answers. So do we know much more than we did in
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, we have a lot more evidence.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] The state of contemporary research does not give
11sufficient evidence, you say, and here we are at the
12beginning of the 21st century?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, no, I think that is taking, if I may say
14so, that particular little section right out of context.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. I am referring here to the question whether the
16deportation of Jews to the East was at this time already a
17matter for the plan. What I am saying, I do not know.
18The research does not allow us to make such a statement.
19 MR IRVING: So there are lots of areas where we still, even
20after 60 years, cannot make a firm statement.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is due to the fact that many of these decisions, you
22know, were done obviously orally between, you know, Hitler
23and Himmler. The Nazis systematically tried to destroy
24the files concerning this question. As far as the files
25are survived, they are scattered around Europe. We
26actually have only access to Eastern European archives
1since a couple of years, so it is...
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that not a bit of a cop out, if I can use a phrase, to
3say that the files have been destroyed and it was done
4verbally between Hitler and Himmler? Is it not a bit of
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. Himmler said it himself in the speech. This is
7history which has not been written and will never be
8written. So they tried systematically to destroy the
9evidence and to mislead the following generations
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Having said that, he then had the speech printed in
12numerable copies and shown to every member of the SS
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I replied this yesterday. It was not, it was a secret
15speech. It was not planned to publish it. It was just to
16have a copy available for internal use.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 53, paragraph 1.3, please? We looked at this
18document once or twice already. Do you agree that the
19approval for the mass killing came from Heydrich and
20Himmler, and that there is no evidence that Hitler himself
21approved of this operation or, indeed, was even informed
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have only can refer to this document and if you read the
24document, it is only a reference to Himmler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] And to Heydrich, of course.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] And that if there had been these verbal discussions
2between Himmler and Hitler that you refer to, this is the
3kind of place you would have expected to find reference to
4it between ----
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not necessarily.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But if there had been general knowledge, and one can
7assume that Gauleiter Greisler who has carried out this
8special treatment of 100,000 Jews must have been wondering
9at the back of his mind, "Is it OK what I am doing?" that
10Himmler passed on to him the word, "Well, I have cleared
11it with the boss"?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, Greisler obviously no difficulties to carry out this
13task. He did not ask for this kind of approval and you
14know that there were very rules about secrecy, and it was
15not every -- it was not always necessary to mention the
16name of Hitler in this or to call upon the authority of
17Hitler in this ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, you say so, Dr Longerich, but, of course, Gauleiter
19Greisler, as a Gauleiter, formally came under Hitler, did
20he not, so where was Hitler in this equation? Here is
21Greiser dealing direct with Himmler, saying, "I have done
22what you and Heydrich have authorized", and there is no
23mention of Hitler in the document?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. There is no mentioning because Greiser was quite
25prepared to carry out this, to carry out this task and he
26assumed that Himmler had the authority to ask him to do
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that Hitler did not order this operation
3then, that the operation was ordered by Himmler and
4Heydrich, as the document says?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have no written evidence that Hitler ordered this
6particular operation to kill these, to kill 100,000 in the
8 Q. [Mr Irving] If somebody says precisely the words you have just used,
9would that make them a Holocaust denier?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not this one sentence, no, of course not.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] The next page, please, paragraph 2.3, are you able to
12identify any document in support of your assertion that
13two districts were to take the lead in the implementation
14of the Final Solution?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, this is mainly, if you look at the, if you look at
16the history of the two extermination camps, at the two
17extermination camps, Belzec, if you look at the history of
18the extermination camp, Belzec, and if you look then, if
19you go a little bit further, if you do not stop here, and
20if you go a little bit further and look into spring 1942
21and look at the deportation, what happened, then it is
22quite clear that Belzec was particularly built for the
23killing of the Jews who are labelled non-fit for work in
24the district of Belzec and to a certain extent in the
25district of Galicia.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So once again you are extrapolating backwards from what
1happened to presume an order ----
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but that is something that if you do not have a
3complete, if you do not have a complete documentation,
4this is what historians sometimes have to do. They have
5to draw conclusion what, you know, actually from the
6following sequence or they have to go back a little bit.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what I have been saying for some weeks, in fact,
8and obviously we share the same kind of methods ----
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure about that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] --- we do not always come up with the same conclusions.
11Paragraph 2.4, the only sources that you quote for your
12assertions about the events in East Galicia are the
13testimony rendered in the 1968 trial and a secondary work
14Ostgalizien by Pohl?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is a dissertation published three years ago by a
16colleague I know very much and I know very closely and,
17I mean, I follow ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Just like Gerlach, the same kind of thing?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] And this is a first case study about the killing of the
20Jews of Eastern Galicia. There is a second book written
21at the same time which came to the same conclusion written
22by Zan Kuhlack, and I think I do not have to go to the
23local archives in Galicia to prove that the Nazis killed
24the Jews of Galicia. It is quite evident. These books
25have been reviewed. These people have to confront
26colleagues' criticism and conferences. I attended those
1conferences and I am of no doubt about their academic
2qualifications, and I do not have to present, I think,
3always first-hand evidence or documentary evidence for
4something which is commonly acknowledged among historians
5and is not disputed.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you dispute this, Mr Irving? Do you say
7that this all made up by somebody?
8 MR IRVING: Well, the question I was going to ask is precisely
9what he just answered. Is he able to identify any
10documentary evidence in support of his allegations or is
11it all second-hand?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but would you answer my question? Are
13you disputing that these indiscriminate killings in
14Galicia took place?
15 MR IRVING: Not in so many words.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, then let us move on.
17 MR IRVING: The purpose of asking these questions, of course,
18is to establish, my Lord, the sometimes rather threadbare
19evidence that this report is based on.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is no point in saying evidence for
21a proposition is threadbare if you accept the proposition.
22 MR IRVING: Well, I am accustomed to working with original
23documents rather than with secondary and tertiary sources.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would not make any difference if you had
25the original documents because you accept what they show.
26 MR IRVING: 2.6, Dr Longerich, once again are you able to
1identify any document that records what Himmler and
2Globocnik discussed at their meeting on October 13th,
3other than, presumably, the Dienstkalender?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it is in the Dienst calendar, you have it in front of
6 Q. [Mr Irving] They were just talking about the einfluss der Juden,
7I suppose, or something like that?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and then there is the BBC file of Globocnik and there
9is a very interesting exchange of letters, and you can
10come to this conclusion if you read through that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And on the basis of those two sources, you then say: "It
12is presumably at this meeting that Globocnik received the
13assignment to build the Belzec extermination camp"?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Just one second, well, we know that they met and we know
15that Globocnik from the internal correspondence of his
16office in Lublin, we know that he was looking for more
17radical solutions for the Jewish question. Then he met
18Himmler and after that they started to build the
19extermination camp of Auschwitz.
20 This is a typical, I mean, in this field we have
21to rely, what we are trying to do, we are trying to
22reconstruct the history of the decision-making process.
23This means that because the evidence is sometimes or is
24sometimes fragmented, we have to put together pieces and
25have to draw conclusions from that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] So it is not so easy, you do not have the daily or the
2weekly records of the conversations between Himmler and
3Hitler about the Holocaust. We have to use these bits and
4pieces and put it together and to come to our
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Very interesting.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Of course, I made here, of course, these kind of
8reservations when I am not absolutely sure that they
9decided this day, it is an assumption based on documentary
10evidence that they probably at this day as I think made
11the decision to build an extermination camp for the
12district of Lublin which then existed, and there were
13people killed in this extermination camp which I think is
14also part of the evidence.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Now just a minor diversion here. Am I right in saying it
16is a perfectly reasonable process as historian or writer
17you get fragmentary documents, sometimes only half a line,
18sometimes a scrap of handwriting. You add your own
19knowledge, you add your experience, the 30 years you have
20worked in the archives, your general body of information,
21and on the basis of that you try to represent, in as
22accurate and genuine a form as possible, what, on the
23balance of probabilities, those fragments of information
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] And you have to include, of course, every piece you find.
26You cannot neglect anything.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but here you had very little that you could have
2neglected, because your result said it is very
3fragmentary, is it not?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sometimes these things are very fragmentary.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] What I just described is the normal process of writing
6history on the basis of very scant records?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If the record is fragmented, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you familiar with the writings of Jan Karski? I will
9ask you about one particular one, page 56, paragraph 2.7.
10Are you aware of the first report that a Polish emissary
11called Jan Karski wrote? He gave it to the Polish
12government in exile early 1940, in which he described a
13visit in December 1939 to a transit camp for Jews at
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. A camp existed at Belzec before this. There was a
16large slave labour camp in Belzec before this time.
17Belzec was just on the demarcation line between the Soviet
18and the German sphere of influence in Poland. They
19employed Jewish slave labour in 1939 and 1940 to build
20what they called the Buchgraben, the fortification at the
21river Buch. So there was a camp there and the living
22conditions in the camp were quite horrid.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Jan Karski describes this ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before you go on about Mr Karski,
25I had thought you accepted that at Belzec there were many
26thousands, tens if not hundreds of thousands, of Jews
1killed by gassing. What is the point of putting that
2Mr Karski took the view it was a transit camp?
3 MR IRVING: I am looking at the quality of the sources.
4I appreciate this point. We will just concentrate on the
5figures then. Is your primary source on Belzec Michael
6Tregenza article published in the Wiener Library bulletin?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, my primary source is the Belzec verdict in German the
8court. Of course I am familiar with the article.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] It is in your footnote 259.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it refers to it but it refers first of all to
11evidence from German court material.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] So you accepted in your footnote 259 that Tregenza is
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I just quoted him here. The footnote is about an
15attempt to reconstruct the history of the setting up of
16Belzec. So I quoted here different statements from
17actually people who participated, worked, who actually
18built this up, and then I said in the footnote Tregenza as
19well confirmed the statement. He accepted the statement
20as a kind of additional source, but I am primarily relying
21on the Polish workers who built there, and who gave us
22evidence about the history of the camp itself.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you disregarded anything that Tregenza wrote in his
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I only referred, I think, to his article here. This does
26not mean I accepted every line that he has written about
2 Q. [Mr Irving] So, if he had written a number of totally absurd
3statements that would have implied to you that he had
4never been anywhere near the place?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no doubt that Belzec was
6constructed, is there?
7 MR IRVING: Unfortunately, he is the source for one million
8being killed apparently?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, not in my report.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you endorse Tregenza's claim that more than a million
11Jews were killed at Belzec?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We do not know the exact number. I think best estimations
13were given in the German Belzec trial. They said between
14500 and 600,000 people. So I would assume that the number
15one million could be seen as exaggerated. I am only
16quoting this article one time and, if he made an absurd
17statement there, I would not quote the article of course.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] If he made a dozen absurd statements, would you have
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Please criticise me if I quote him. I think I only quoted
21him one once and I only quoted that he actually confirms
22these statements of documents which I found elsewhere.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry to keep interrupting but, if I do
24not understand, I may as well say so. You quote whatever
25he is called, Tregenza, simply for the date when the
26construction of Belzec started. You do not rely on him,
1as I understand it, am I right, Dr Longerich, for the
2number killed there?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, exactly.
4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] You rely on the German court documents for that and they
5give a different figure. So why are we spending a long
6time on whether he is a reliable witness?
7 MR IRVING: We are going to spend a short time. I could have
8spent much longer describing all the absurd statements
9which make it quite plain that Tregenza was never anywhere
10near the place and that any reasonable historian, reading
11Tregenza's report, would have disqualified that source
12completely. Paragraph 2.8, page 57, your only source for
13the claim that Globocnik had an assignment to kill the
14Jews of the Lublin and Galicia districts is a secondary
15work again, Pohl's Lublin?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am stating here that Globocnik had not yet received the
17order to prepare for the killing of all Jews in the
18Generalgouvernement, so this is the key sentence here.
19I came to the conclusion actually by looking at the
20history of Belzec because Belzec was obviously too small,
21put it this way, to kill all the Jews of the
22Generalgouvernement. So I think in my attempt to
23reconstruct events, Belzec was first of all designed to
24kill the Jews non-fit for work in the district of Lublin,
25and in the district of Galicia, but not the killing centre
26for the whole Generalgouvernement. I came to this
1conclusion by looking actually at the size of this
3 Q. [Mr Irving] In Belzec?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Belzec.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So we do not have very much information on the size
6anyway, do we? We are very ill informed about it.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Because these camps were destroyed systematically by the
8Nazis at the end of the war.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I just take you back, and I am sure my Lord will
10understand why, to page 53, paragraph 1.2, the third
11line. There is a sentence there: "750 Jews were killed in
12gas vans." Do you see that? The beginning of the
13sentence says: "In an action lasting several days at the
14end of November 700 Jews were killed in gas vans". So, if
15it took several days to kill 700 Jews in gas vans, can you
16estimate how long it would take to kill 97,000?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They were just experimenting at this time. They improved
18their technique. This statement does not say that they
19were trying to kill as many Jews as possible. It just
20says they killed 700 Jews in a couple of days. It does
21not make any sense to draw conclusions from that to their
22capacity, to their ability to kill Jews in gas vans.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] So this was just experimental at this stage, was it?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] If you like to call the killing of 700 people as
25experimental, yes, then I have to agree, in comparison to
26what happened after that 97,000.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, you yourself used the phrase, and I quote
2verbatim, they were just experimenting at this stage. I
3did not use the word. You did.
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I tried to put it to you, I have to admit, in a kind of
5cynical way, to say, well, they were improving, wait a
6little bit, wait a couple of months and they were able to
7kill 97,000 people within six months.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] With the same numbers of gas vans? Three gas vans could
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think in the meantime they changed the models. They
11worked on the models, as the report from June 1942 shows
12us. They tried their best to extend the capacity of the
13gas vans. Of course the use of Chelmno was a kind of
14improvement because they were able to deceive people, to
15say to them: Well, actually only entering a shower room,
16the shower room was in fact the gas, so this whole thing
17was much more effective a couple of months later than this
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you sometimes get the impression, Dr Longerich, that
20some of these figures that are put in letters and
21documents, or even eyewitness statements, are just fantasy
22figures? They have very little relation to fact?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is not my general view.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I take you to page 56 please, line 8. There is a
25sentence there on line 8 which says: "On 12th October
261941, 10,000 to 12,000 Jews were murdered in one town".
1Is that right?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you likes to comment on the logistics of an
4operation of that scale? How many men would be involved?
5How many shooters? How many trucks? How many pits?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I went through the history of mass executions for quite a
7time. I studied this for the book I wrote extensively.
8I looked at dozens of German court proceedings and I have
9a kind of idea how it was feasible to do that. You
10actually needed to kill thousands of people, even 10,000
11people, you needed actually ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] In one day?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, on one day.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] It just says on one day.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it was possible. You only needed a quite limited
16number of people who would shoot these people on the pits.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] 1,000 tons of bodies?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, when I asked you -- I am sorry to
19interrupt -- about 20 minutes ago, when we were on this
20paragraph before, whether you disputed the indiscriminate
21shootings in Galicia, you said no. You are now putting to
22him that in some way it would have been impossible to
23dispose of the corpses and you are now challenging the
25 MR IRVING: Your Lordship may not have heard the introductory
26question which is does this witness have the impression
1sometimes that these figures are fantasy figures.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you are challenging the figures?
3 MR IRVING: I am challenging globally these kinds of statistics
4which are in the history books and in the reports on the
5basis of what is practicable, and what is, on the basis of
6common sense, likely.
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know as far as one can speak about common sense
8when it comes to mass killings, but this is called the
9bloody Sunday of Stanislaw. So it is a tragedy which is
10well-known. It is well-researched.
11 MR IRVING: How many men were involved in the actual killing
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think, as far as I am aware, several hundred at least.
14Is it really necessary that I --
15 MR IRVING: No, I have left that point now.
16 MR RAMPTON: Without deigning to wait for the witness's full
17answer, I have to say.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Actually, what you would not have seen is
19that I rather suggested to Dr Longerich that we might move
20on from Galicia.
21 MR IRVING: I did not see that either but I had already decided
22to move on.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are all agreed. Let us move on.
24 MR IRVING: If your Lordship thinks that was not a valid point
25to make, then I will avoid making points like that in
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the killings in Galicia are a bit of
2a side issue, I am afraid.
3 MR IRVING: It is the figures, the statistics, my Lord.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Even that.
5 MR IRVING: If somebody is accused of Holocaust denial because
6he says the figures are too high.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are talking about that particular
8obviously ghastly incident in Galicia, and I do not really
9think that that is what this case is centrally about.
10 MR IRVING: Page 59, paragraph 3, please. Two days later
11Rosenberg spoke at a press conference about the
12eradication of the Jews of Europe. Was this supposed to
13be secret or not, this operation?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The operation was secret.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] He orders a press conference and talks about it.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This was quoted yesterday. I quoted this yesterday
17again. This was under the heading "secret". The
18journalists were not allowed to write about it. There was
19a section of the press conference where it actually was
20said: This is now confidential, a confidential
21information, you are not allowed to write about this
23 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not want to labour the point, but what kind of top
24secret issue is it? I do not remember General Leslie
25Groves holding top secret background briefings to the
26press about the Manhattan project, for example. Either
1something is top state secret or it is not. You do not
2hold even background briefings with the press about it.
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think you have to read the statement very carefully.
4"There are still about 6 million Jews in the east, and
5this question can only be solved through a biological
6eradication of all of Jewry in Europe. The Jewish
7question will only be solved for Germany when the last Jew
8has left German territory and for Europe when there is no
9longer a Jew left standing on the European Continent". He
10is not literally saying well, actually, we are killing at
11the moment people, women, men and children in gas
12chambers. He is talking about this in very general
13phrases. It is like Hitler spoke about ausrottung and
14vernichtung and I quote in the report No. 1. I quote a
15number of other examples. In every system where you have
16a principle of secrecy, of course, things are going wrong
17and people are talking too much to the press, and giving a
18kind of insight into the process. These things happen.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that, when Rosenberg specifically names the
20option as being to push them over the Urals as one way of
21eradicating them, then such expulsion over the Urals does
22not necessarily mean to kill them?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure now about your question, whether it is
24actually a pronouncement to kill them or not to kill
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you agree that the Rosenberg reference to
1eradication therefore does not necessarily mean physical
2extermination or killing?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I look at the German text. I am sorry. Well, he says in
4the German: "Und dazu ist es notig, sie uber den Ural zu
5drangen oder sonst irgendwie zur Ausmerzung zu bringen."
6For this it is necessary to push them over the Urals or
7otherwise eradicate them. I think this is quite clear:
8Otherwise eradicate them. So I think the phrase to push
9them over the Urals is a clear expression, a metaphor for
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, I am looking at my little dictionary from
12yesterday, the 1935 one, and it says for Ausmerzung -- I
13did not know this but here we are, we take a plunge -- to
14expunge or to eliminate, to expunge them.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] To eliminate, I think, would be the right expression here.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Primary one to expunge?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] In this case I think, if somebody speaks about millions of
18people, Jews, who actually ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving] You are going to boot them out or expunge them?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but you have to look at the context. I think, if you
21speak end of 1941, after half a million of Soviet Jews had
22been killed, at least, if a leading Nazi speaks about
23Ausmerzung, I think the second meaning would here be the
25 Q. [Mr Irving] You are extrapolating backwards from your knowledge of
26what happened to assign a meaning to the word which is
1different from the primary meaning given by the
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] What happened at the time, and Rosenberg was of course
4quite aware about the----
5 MR RAMPTON: Extrapolating backwards is unfair. Putting two
6contemporary events side by side and drawing an inference
7would be more like it.
8 MR IRVING: This press conference was in November 1941,
9I believe, is that right?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton has rightly said that events happened side by
12side. At this time, 18th November, had the physical
13extermination of the Jews of Germany begun?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but of the Soviet Jews. I think the phrase to push
15them over the Urals is a very clear hint.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] We now come to the Wannsee conference. A general
17question: Are you able to identify any documentary
18evidence that proves that by the time of the Wannsee
19conference, which is January 20th 1942, the general plan
20for deportation had changed into one for mass murder?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think the Wannsee conference gives us a clear insight
22that they are about to change their plan. I think we have
23to go into the detail to make this point more clear.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] They had not yet changed but they are about to?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They are about to change, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] In your opinion?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] So at the time that these gentlemen meet around their
3table in Berlin Wannsee, the change has not taken place,
4but sometime sooner or later after that the change will
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sooner, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Is page 61 now, please, paragraph 2. The passage that you
8identify as central concerning the general aims of the
9future Jewish policy is as follows, Dr Longerich: "A
10further possible solution instead of emigration has come
11up. After appropriate approval by the Fuhrer, the
12evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its
13place". Let us have a look at that. By "evacuation of
14the Jews", do you mean evacuation or killing?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think we have to look at the text of the Wannsee.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to find it. For some reason it
17is not in N1.
18 MR RAMPTON: We do not have it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought I had looked at it.
20 MR RAMPTON: It is nobody's fault. I have asked. There is a
21version printed in Nokes &Pridham, but I have not even
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought we had looked at it at some stage.
24 MR RAMPTON: It is an extraordinary state of affairs, but
25nobody on either side of the court seems to have a text of
26the Wannsee conference.
1 MR IRVING: I do not mind very much because it is not a very
3 MR RAMPTON: I am not concerned with whether Mr Irving minds
4about that or anything else, to be quite honest. I am
5concerned that it is not there when your Lordship wants to
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it obtainable?
8 MR RAMPTON: It is printed in a well-known three volume history
9of Nazi Germany by two people from Exeter University
10called Nokes &Pridham. It is referenced under that
11heading in a number of the reports, particularly Evans,
12but it is not in the documents.
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, I can provide immediately an English
14translation on Monday.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it probably is a good idea to have
17 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
18 MR IRVING: It is on my website.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a document that one is going to have to
20look at quite carefully.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have the English text here in this documentation.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I have it here.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try and deal with the questions now.
25 MR IRVING: The question was, in your central passage the
26evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its
1place. Can we accept that evacuation has its real meaning
2there or is there an innuendo?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is not the central passage. He is referring here to
4two different things. First of all, he is actually
5telling the history of how the Nazis tried to solve the
6Jewish question. He is saying here: "A further possible
7solution to emigration has come up. After appropriate
8approval by the Fuhrer the evacuation of the Jews to the
9East has stepped into its place". "Into its place" is in
10the place of emigration. Then it goes on and says: "These
11actions however must be regarded only as an alternative
12solution. But already the practical experience is being
13gathered which is of great importance to the coming Final
14Solution of the Jewish question". Now in the next
15paragraph he is explaining what the coming Final Solution
16of the Jewish question is. So he is referring to
17emigration, then to deportation, and then he is saying the
18next step, we are entering now the Final Solution, the
19coming Final Solution, and the central passage where he
20explains (Heydrich) what the coming Final Solution is, is
21quoted in my report on page 61 in the last paragraph.
22This is the central passage, I think.
23 MR IRVING: Yes.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is past tense. This is history, the deportation. We
25are now approaching the coming Final Solution. That is
26what the Wannsee conference is about.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What you say is that it is what he does not
2say rather than what he does say in relation to those who
3are unfit to work which is significant? Have I understood
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, he is now explaining what the coming Final Solution
6is. These are these famous sentences: "Under the
7appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be put to work
8in the course of the Final Solution. Organized into large
9work gangs and segregated according to sex, those Jews fit
10for work will be led into these areas as road builders,
11whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out by natural
12elimination. The remainder who will survive -- and they
13will certainly be those who have the greatest power of
14endurance -- will have to be dealt with accordingly. For,
15if released, they would, according to the natural
16selection of the fittest, form the seed of a new Jewish
17regeneration". I think the key word in German here is
18"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen", to be dealt with
20 MR IRVING: Treated accordingly, yes.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is the central passage of the Wannsee conference and
22this is where Heydrich explains what the coming Final
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Of course it depends how you translate it, does it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The German text for me is pretty clear.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] What about that phrase "bei Freilassung" which originally
1you actually left out in your book? You left those words
2out entirely, did you not, because it is difficult to get
3past those words "bei Freilassung"?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I am not sure about the book ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sure because you left the words out of that
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am quite happy that you read my book but we are talking
8about this text here. If there is a mistake I will
10 Q. [Mr Irving] You translate it as: For the Jews, if released, would,
11according to natural selection of the fittest, form the
12seed of a new Jewish regeneration.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] The word is not "if released". It is not conditional. It
15is "bei Freilassung", which means upon release, does it
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. In the case of release, bei Freilassung.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Upon release?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] It is not conditional at all. There is no if and but
21about it. It says "bei Freilassung".
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, "bei Freilassung". This is meant in the context as
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this is probably the key part, in a
25way, of your report, Dr Longerich. The question, if
26I have understood it right, is that what Heydrich is
1really proposing is that one would, by a process of
2natural selection, have the fittest Jews forming the seed
3of what he is intending should be a new Jewish
4regeneration. Is that the suggestion, Mr Irving?
5 MR IRVING: That is the danger which they foresee, and so they
6are going to have to be kept, for example, physically
7outside the Reich territories. They must be prevented
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but the idea that you are putting that
10Heydrich has is that there should be a new Jewish
11regeneration born of the fittest Jews who survive the
13 MR IRVING: He fears that they may be. He is not saying they
14should be. He says that if, upon release----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Are you suggesting that the true meaning
16of this passage is that Heydrich is proposing that there
17should be -- all right, outside the Nazi empire -- the
18seed of a new Jewish regeneration? Is that what you are
20 MR IRVING: It is, because on February 4th 1942, which is only
21a week or two later, Heydrich, speaking in Prague,
22actually spoke again of the white sea option. He said
23nothing about the mass annihilation of the Jews. Are you
24familiar with the book by Gotz Aly?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Final Solution, Nazi population policy, and the murder of
1the European Jews. He prints extracts from this speech by
2Heydrich in Prague, does he not, February 4th 1942?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but Aly is of course----
4 Q. [Mr Irving] He says nothing about mass annihilation of the Jews. He
5reiterates the white sea option, which involves sending
6the Jews to form a Russian concentration camp and says
7that this area will form an ideal homeland for the
8European Jews. Are you familiar with that passage from
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You have not mentioned it, have you?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, but Gotz Aly is among those who actually suggest in
13the book that the decision to carry out the Final Solution
14was taken in October 1941. You quote him completely
15against his own intentions.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I am allowed to, am I not? Historians are allowed to take
17pieces out of other people's books that do not necessarily
18fit in with the----
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but you have also to read his interpretation of this
20sentence which does not go along with your interpretation.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Longerich, can you just go back to what
22I believe is the suggestion as to what Heydrich was
23proposing at Wannsee. Leave aside what happened later.
24Would you comment on Mr Irving's proposition?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. I think this passage makes it quite clear what
26Heydrich's intentions are. He says that the Jews will be
1led into the East in large labour gangs, segregated
2according to sex. Thus Jews fit for work will be let into
3those areas, whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out
4by natural elimination. So they will die by hard labour,
5diseases and so on. The remainder who will survive, and
6they will certainly be those who have the greatest power
7of endurance, so they are fit to survive, will have to be
8dealt with accordingly. Again the German phrase here is
9"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen". This is a
10typical phrase used by the SS, they have to be
11liquidated. Then, because, if they were released, in
12contrast to Heydrich's intention, there would be a
13selection of the finest and could form the seed of a new
14Jewish regeneration. This is exactly what Heydrich of
15course wanted to prevent. He did not want to see after
16this ordeal a new generation of Jews in his empire. In
17the Wannsee protocol there are also other references,
18I think, and other passages which make it quite clear what
19the intention was.
20 MR IRVING: At the end of that passages does he also have a
21passage in brackets which you left out, "see the lessons
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry? Here in the text I left something out?
24 Q. [Mr Irving] "als Keimzelle eines neuen judischen Aufbaues anzusprechen
25ist". Then there is another passage in brackets which you
26left out, is it not, in that paragraph, "see the lessons
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The lessons of history are we do not want to see actually
3Jews regenerate from such a catastrophe any more, we want
4to kill them all. By the way, the logic of this sentence,
5this idea to lead large labour gangs into the East and to
6have them diminished by natural selection, and then to
7deal with the survivors, what about the people who are not
8fit for work? He does not say that. What about the
9children and the mothers? What is he going to offer for
10them in the context of this speech?
11 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that what Heydrich was saying in Prague on
12February 4th 1942, just a few days later, has no bearing
13on this, that he makes no mention of mass annihilation,
14and he is talking about the white sea option and using the
15Russian concentration camps, which are now emptied of
16course, to house the Jewish emigres. What is this, just
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They are speaking here about the coming Final Solution, so
19it has not started yet. It will start in May 1942.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who was Heydrich speaking to in February
211942, Dr Longerich, do you know? Do you know, Mr Irving?
22May I enquire of you?
23 MR IRVING: I am just checking on the source, Gotz Aly.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, do not worry.
25 MR IRVING: A secret address by Heydrich on February 4th 1942
26in Prague, page 174 of Gotz Aly, the Final Solution. That
1is the only reference that I have for that.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Again, one should see the whole document. Secret address
3to whom? I would like to see the full text before I could
4comment on that.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] He was not speaking to the Boy Scouts and the Brownies,
6was he? He was obviously speaking to people who----
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen any transcript or
8note of what he said on February 4th.
9 MR IRVING: I will obtain it, my Lord. That is all I can say.
10The whole passage.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you mind? Thank you.
12 MR IRVING: It does seem important because of the value one
13learns from it to place on the Wannsee conference. Can
14I just ask, or re-ask, one or two questions about the
15Wannsee conference? There is no specific mention of
16killing. You have once again to interpret, you have to
17read between the lines?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. Again, I tried to show you this here. If you go to
19the end of the minutes, it is, I think, quite clear. If
20you look at the remarks of the Secretary of State of the
21Generalgouvernement, I quoted this in my report, it is
22page 64, the last paragraph: "In the concluding
23discussion different possible solutions were talked
24about. Gauleiter Dr Meyer (the representative of the
25Ministry for the occupied Eastern territories) as well as
26Staatssekretar Dr Buhler, Secretary of State of the
1Generalgouvernement, represented the position that certain
2preparatory measures in the course of the Final Solution
3should be carried out in the relevant areas themselves,
4whereby, however, the disquieting of the population must
6 Then the Wannsee protocol makes clears that they
7were talking about the different solutions they were
8suggesting here. So what they are doing is they are
9saying, well, we cannot wait until the Final Solution is
10coming, we want to start with it now. So they are trying
11to exempt the killing operations against the Polish Jews
12and the Soviet Jews from this coming Final Solution.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] These preparations that might have upset or caused unrest,
14would it be things like drawing up lists of people to be
15deported? Would that have caused unrest?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, the preparatory measures are the building of killing
18 Q. [Mr Irving] How do you know that?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is my interpretation.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Your interpretation?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] From the text and from what happened. They started to
22build a couple of weeks later Sobibor, they started to
23build Treblinka and they built gas chambers in Auschwitz.
24As I said, well, they prefer to use a camouflage
25language. We also have the statements by Eichmann in his
26trial when he said at the Wannsee conference they spoke
1quite openly about killing and different ways of killing.
2I think this is here the passage he is referring to.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] You are saying that making the preparatory measures in the
4relevant areas might disquiet the population. Why would
5creating killing installations in Poland, or wherever the
6killing is going to be done, upset the population who are
7going to be rounded up and shipped off to them?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think the fact that they were going to establish
9extermination camps would upset the local population.
10They would not like it.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not far more likely that the preparatory measures
12that they are talking about are things as I mentioned,
13like rounding up or listing or drawing up black lists of
14people to be deported, making all the necessary transport
15preparations, word of which would get out and what would
16happen then would be the same as happened in Rome, where
17they start off with 8,000 and only manage to get their
18hands on 1,000?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think we have to go back to the text here.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, can I take you now to paragraph 3 of that page, 61?
21I am going to suggest to you, Dr Longerich, they are
22talking about the Final Solution as is going to be
23implemented after the victory, is that right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, definitely not. It is saying here in the -- it says
25in the -- really, it is a pity that we do not have the
26full text here ----
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Let me draw your attention to the last sentence.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let him finish the answer.
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We have a clear indication in the text that they are
4expecting the beginning of the coming Final Solution in a
5couple of months, because it is said here in the text:
6"The timing for the start of the individual large scale
7evacuation actions will be largely dependent on military
8development". So they ----
9 MR IRVING: "And could only be fully realized after a German
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Is it in the text?
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, your paragraph 3.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I am sorry but ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving] That is the question I asked you ----
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, just a moment ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving] At the end of paragraph 3.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are talking over each over.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Just a moment. I am not quoting from the minutes of the
19Wannsee Conference where it clearly said that this
20deportation could start after the military developments
21would allow that. This is in a couple of -- from their
22perspective, is a couple of months. The whole operation
23could, of course, only be, could only be carried out, the
24whole operation, they talking here about the killing of 11
25million Jews, including British Jews, Turkish Jews, Swiss
26Jews, and so on. So the whole operation could, of course,
1only -- it is a question of logic -- only be dealt to a
2full extent after the war because the precondition of that
3is, of course, that they had to win the war.
4 MR IRVING: Precisely.
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] But the text gives us a clear indication that they are
6bound to start this. They are just waiting. They say:
7"As soon as the military, as soon as the military
8situation improves, we will start that" and in the end it
9becomes clear from the comments of Buhler and Meiyer that
10they cannot wait. They want to start preparatory measures
11on the spot and ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving] So the answer to my question is, yes, this comprehensive
13plan was only going to be implemented after final victory?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] To a full extent, but they were quite prepared and were
15quite keen to start it as soon as possible, as soon as the
16military situation would allow it to start it.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Because if you look further up that paragraph, it says
18they are going to get their hands on those, the Jews,
19outside Germany, in Great Britain, Ireland, Portugal,
20Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Turkey. Now, how are they
21going to do that, except by some kind of peace treaty?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I have made my point quite clear.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you have, but can I just ask you this
24and see whether I am taking a bad point. The bit of
25Heydrich that you quote at the foot of your page 61, says:
26"Under the appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be
1put to work in the course of the Final Solution", and so
2on. The word in the German text is "nun"?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is he contemplating there that the work gangs of those fit
5enough to work will be got together straightaway?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] And that does not wait until the end of the war or
8anything of that kind?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Exactly. The "now" is another confirmation that it will
10start very, very soon -- as soon as the military situation
12 MR IRVING: The entry was, as you say, on paragraph 4:
13"Initially, the Jews were going to be brought to
14'transit-ghettos in order to be transported from there
15further to the East'."
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, before they could start the coming Final Solution.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] But they could not do the whole job though until the war
18was over and they could sign the peace treaties with
19Britain and the rest of the countries?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I make my point quite clear, I think. I disagree
21with that and now I give you one, I give you one quotation
22and there is another quotation, the word "nun" indicates
23that it would start very, very soon -- now actually.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Part of it starts now, but the final Final Solution is
25going to be after the war?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I do not want to repeat myself.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, my Lord, there is an important corollary, it now
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not want to repeat that. I made it very clear that
4I quoted now again and again this quotation here ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but can I now put the ----
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- that "The timing for the start of the individual large
7evacuations action will be largely dependent on military
8developments". So as soon as the military situation will
9improve, they will start it and they actually started it
10in a couple of month.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I now put the final question in this particular
12context which is this. If peace broke out and all the
13Jews of Europe started rolling eastwards into these camps,
14these transit camps, set up by the Germans, what could the
15Germans do with them in peace time? They could not run
16the gas chambers, could they? They could not have these
17huge extermination operations in peace time, could they,
18because that kind of thing people get attention of in
19peace time. You can do things in war time that you cannot
20do in peace, is that right?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] You are talking here, you are assuming here, a total
22victory of Nazi Germany in World War II, and I can imagine
23that in this case they would be able to carry out whatever
24they want to do in Europe.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] They are obviously assuming a total victory; they are
26going to get their hands on Britain's Jews and even the
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, of course.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] --- not to mention Portugal, the Swiss, all of them?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] So they are anticipating total victory, and yet when peace
6time comes, somehow they are going to keep these gas
7chambers and the whole paraphernalia of death clanking
8with nobody noticing?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they are under full, if they really had won the war,
10they were under full control. There was nobody who could
11interfere. Who could actually come and interfere and do
12anything about that?
13 Q. [Mr Irving] It rather destroys the homicidal nature of the Wannsee
14Conference, does it not, the idea that it is all going to
15be put off until peace time, the final part of the
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I made it quite clear that i do not follow this, and what
18is said here that this operation to a full extent could
19only be carried out after the war. So they would assume
20that they, if they had won the war they would starting to
21kill the British Jews, according to the minutes of the
22Wannsee Conference. I think it is quite clear here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph 5, line 4, you say that in the case that they
24should survive these trials and tribulations, they would
25be murdered. That is just the spin you put on that "dealt
26with accordingly", right?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is true, yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Which might be a legitimate interpretation, but, of
5course, there might be other interpretations. Do you
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Such as?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think the text is quite clear. They are talking here
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What alternative explanation would you put
12 MR IRVING: Well, I did put this to the witness, my Lord. Is
13it not possible that these ultrafit, able-bodied
14survivalist Jews had survived the whole of this appalling
15experience and emerged at the end of it, that, as Heydrich
16said, "We are going to have to deal with them separately.
17We are going to have to make sure they do not come back"?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I think the context makes it clear that Heydrich
19wants to avoid that these people are the seed of a
20regeneration of European Jewry. I think from the context
21it is quite clear he wants to kill them in order to avoid
22that. He is not talking about building up a kind of
23recreation camp or something in the East where they can,
24you know, regenerate and become the core of a Jewish
25nation or something like that. I think the context is
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Apart from Eichmann, have you considered the testimony of
2any of the participants in the Wannsee Conference?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I have seen most of them, yes.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Are they all unanimous in saying, "Yes, we all discussed
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, of course not. They were taken during the Nuremberg
7trial, the main trial, and during the so-called [German],
8that is the trial against the administration, and they
9were all evasive. I mean, for instance, the Secretary of
10State, Noimann, said he was not actually there, you know.
11You have this kind of quality. They were
12self-exculpatory. This is the largest killing, murderous
13operation in modern history and this is the key document
14we have. Of course, everybody who was there, every
15Secretary of State, every Civil Servant, would, of course,
16do everything to distance themselves from these minutes.
17So they had all kinds of -----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there not evidence that Stuchart, in fact, sold at out
19Nuremberg to the Americans as a witness, and that if he
20had been there and he had known of what really happened,
21he would have been very willing to tell the Americans what
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not see where, what is the evidence for that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, are you aware that Stuchart was, when all the rest
25around him were being sentenced to 10 years, 20 years and
26the gallows, he was released, sentenced to time served?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] What does it -- I cannot see the point.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] What does it?
4 MR IRVING: Well, the point I am making, my Lord, is there were
5about 20 participants in the Wannsee Conference. Any one
6of them would have had a severe temptation to go to the
7Americans and say, "If you guarantee that I am going to be
8released in the foreseeable future, I will tell you what
9you want to hear".
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, that is your speculation. I cannot follow that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And they all maintained a solid front and said, no, there
12was no such discussion?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they find -- there was nothing like a solid front.
14They had all, I mean, all kind of answers to this
15question, all kinds of evasion, all kinds of different
16tactics. Most of them, most of them pretended that
17actually the only issue there was the Mischlinger question
18which formed the second part of the Wannsee Conference,
19and that they simply did not realize that Heydrich was
20talking about killing, and this was what most of the
21witnesses actually said.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What they said that the January part ----
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- of the Wannsee was all about Mischlinger?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] They were referring in their answers, referring to the
26second part of the Wannsee Conference, yes.
1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is there any reference to Mischlinger in the protocol of
2the January part of the Wannsee Conference?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. The Wannsee conference, the minutes has two parts.
4First of all, it is Heydrich's speech, this general speech
5about the fate of the Jews, and the second part is
6about -- the Wannsee Conference is about how and who, how
7was the first part and who was the second part?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do need to have a translation of the
10 MR IRVING: I have a complete translation on my website site,
11so it is very easy to provide it. (To the witness):
12Dr Longerich, the only other point on the Wannsee
13Conference is statistics, on population statistics that it
14contains. Are they accurate, in your view?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not entirely. There are some mistakes in it, I think.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] There are some gross errors, are there not?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Which one?
18 Q. [Mr Irving] The French Jewish population is overestimated
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, what they did, they made a mistake. That have a
21figure of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving] 700,000?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and I think an additional figure for the occupied
24territory of 165 -- so this is a kind of confusion. They
25actually double counted the people in the occupied
1 Q. [Mr Irving] What about Buhler's reference to 2.5 million Jews in the
2Generalgouvernement? Was that an accurate estimate or was
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] That is probably a little bit exaggerated.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] You say that is exaggerated, but, of course, Dr Frank in
6his famous December 16th 1941 speech talks of 3.5 million
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, he says at 2.5 and they are [German] -- the families,
9their relatives, or everybody, he is talking about, I
10think he is talking about the so-called mixed Mischlinger
11or mixed Jews. He gives two figures. I think one is 2.5
12and then he says, "Well, and their dependents and people
13that are related to them" and then he comes to 3.5. The
14figure 3.5 is too high.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] 65. Go to page 65, please, paragraph 4 -- page 66,
16paragraph 5, please. You say: "There is conclusive proof
17of 43 transports, which as a rule carried 1,000 people
18each", but the only source you gave on this is one of your
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. There is more research about this in my book. This
21is, sorry, from where is that from?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: To Lublin, I think.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, to Lublin. In the book I have a -- it is a list of
24the trains. I list every train with arrival dates and so
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is that challenged, Mr Irving? Do you say there were not?
1 MR IRVING: No. I am just curious to know what his sources
2were. Do you agree that the transports were for the
3purpose of deportation to ghettos and not for
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We are talking now about the spring of 1942, so we are
6still in this transitional phase, so they have not started
7what they call in the Wannsee Conference their coming
8Final Solution. They are still deporting people into
9ghettos and not directly -- German Jews or Jews from
10Germany, not directly, not directly into extermination
11camps. They will start this in May 1942.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] 67, paragraph 10. What did Heydrich mean by the
13resettlement of altogether half a million Jews out of
14Europe to the East? This is the second sentence from the
15end of paragraph 10.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I think this is in April.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] 1942?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] April 1942. I think they are, they talked in the Wannsee
19Conference, they talked about this, the coming Final
20Solution, about this large programme to deport Jews to the
21East and to kill them there. And I think this is -- they
22are not going to shift their plans from bringing people to
23ghettos, and they now shift these plans to the next stage
24where they are actually about to send Jews directly to
26 So you can see from this document that they are
1in the [German] they are planning on a larger programme,
2and I think they are just about to make the decision
3actually that these new transports will go directly into
4extermination camps, but I have no ----
5 Q. [Mr Irving] No proof?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- no final evidence for that. This is a document which
7was unknown so far. And we will find more and this will
8add to our knowledge.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] It is quite unsatisfactory, is it not, that every time we
10want to deduce an extermination inference, we have to end
11up by saying, "Unfortunately, there is no proof, it is
12just one's own conclusion"?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I do not think I say that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you accept that hundreds of
15thousands of Jews were exterminated.
16 MR IRVING: Yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So why are you criticising the inference that
18Dr Longerich draws that that was what was proposed?
19 MR IRVING: We are looking at the overall figures, my Lord, we
20have to if we are to avoid the allegation of Holocaust
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are on the figure of half a million?
23 MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are tackling the figure of half a
26 MR IRVING: Yes. That is a substantial number going to the
1East. We needed to know what it is ----
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, well, there is more evidence for that. I made a
3calculation here. He said in Bratislava this would
4comprise six countries, that is Germany, Belgium,
5Netherlands, France and the Protectorate and Slovakia, and
6if you look at the planning for the deportation at the
7first phase of deportations in spring 1942, we can see,
8you know, 55,000 people from Germany, about 70,000,
9I think, from Slovakia, you can actually look at the
10different countries, look at the figures and you come to
11the conclusion that 500,000 is actually what they were
12going to plan at this time.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is planning? It is not what happened?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is planning. This is planning.
15 MR IRVING: But, you see, the problem is in paragraph 11 now we
16come to the Dannecker Conference of June 11th 1942.
17Dannecker was Eichmann's man in Paris, is that right?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] They are talking about shipping Jews from France to
20Auschwitz or to ----
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving] The document here is quite specific. We have the actual
23German wording, have we not?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] [German - document not provided] "We agree that from the
26Netherlands 15,000, from Belgium 10,000 and from France,
1including the unoccupied territory, altogether 100,000
2Jews are to be deported". The note states that "Himmler",
3as you say, on page 68, line 3, "had given the order to
4'provide larger quantities of Jews to the Auschwitz
5concentration camp, to increase the workforce'"?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] The primary condition is they have got to be able-bodied,
8between 16 and 40 years old, but the transports are also
9allowed to include 10 per cent who are not fit for work.
10Have you any conclusion you want to draw on that?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I think it shows you that they are not at this stage,
12not only using Jews as slave labour, but they also at this
13stage have started to include in the transport Jews who
14are not fit for work. So the plan is, obviously, to kill
15them on arrival in Auschwitz. So, the coming Final
16Solution actually started. People are directly deported
17to extermination camps.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Is that the only conclusion you draw from that, that there
19is no other possible interpretation of the 10 per cent,
20that there may have been a desire there possibly to keep
21families together or to tell them they are going to be
22kept together or something like that?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I would not at this stage, if you look at the reality
24in transition camps and transports at camps, I would not,
25I cannot agree that they had this humanitarian
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen any documents relating to the building in
2West Germany of special camps for the French to be housed
3in? They actually went to Auschwitz and came back from
4Auschwitz to these special camps.
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, there is a small number of Jews who were deported
6from France, a relatively small number, who were sent to
7war camps in Upper Silesia. This is, you announce this a
8couple of, I think two or three weeks ago that you wanted
9to actually prove that the majority of the Jews who were
10deported from France were not sent to Auschwitz but were
11used in a kind of labour programme, but I have not
12received the documentation yet so I am ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen the document that was used in the trial of
14Frans Novac, Eichmann's transportation officer?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, well, again if you have those documents, if they are
16available, I would like to look at them and to comment on
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Perhaps I could just ask you to look at the two indented
19paragraphs in that letter, in that document.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, again I am asked here to comment on a text prepared
21by Mr Irving. It is not an original document.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have no idea what you are looking at. Have
23you got copies for anybody else, Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING: If the witness is not prepared to answer a question
25on that document, then...
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not said he is not; he has just said
1he has not seen it before.
2 MR IRVING: He is unhappy about it.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But, I mean, it is a bit unsatisfactory if
4there are not any copies for anybody else because
5Mr Rampton would like probably to follow it as well.
6 MR IRVING: I am just hopelessly badly prepared, unfortunately.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you are normally extremely
8well-prepared. I mean that.
9 MR IRVING: Not having the facilities that the huge team on the
10other side have.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try. Yes, well, I know.
12 MR RAMPTON: We do apologise for being huge!
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us try to see whether we can manage
14without a copy. What is the question, Mr Irving? You
15probably do not have your own copy now.
16 MR IRVING: No. Could I have it back to ask you a question?
17I will read it out. The document is a Schnell brief which
18is an express letter from Himmler to the Minister of
19Finance, dated August 17th 1942. Your Lordship may
20remember we have had this document before, before the
21court, about four weeks ago.
22 MR RAMPTON: I have not seen it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have to say I do not remember it.
24 MR IRVING: And it is headed: "Costs involved in the
25evacuation of the Jews from France". Now, this letter is
26in the period when you claim that the comprehensive
1extermination period has begun, is it not?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, yes.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] The relevant sections reads, and it is in German, but I
4will translate it: "In the framework of the general
5solution of the Jewish problem and for the security of the
6occupation forces in the occupied French territories, Jews
7are continually being transported from France to the
8Reich. At first the evacuated Jews are being housed in
9the concentration camp, Auschwitz, but a special reception
10camp is to be built in the western Reich territory for
11them. The barracks necessary for this are already stored
12ready for shipment in the occupied French territory and
13they can be transported to the Reich immediately after
14payment of the purchase sum of 340,000 Reichsmarks. It is
15intended every month to send 13 railway trains with Jews
16into the Reich territory. By 10th August 1942", that is a
17week before the date of this letter, "18 trains from
18France have gone to the camp in Auschwitz which have
19involved the following transportation costs, 76,000
20Reichsmarks as far as the Reich frontier, 439,000
21Reichsmarks from the Reich frontier and to the camp" ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] So this letter -- sorry.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] "The costs involved in B can be dramatically reduced or
24substantially reduced in the future by erection of a
25reception camp on Reich territory".
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, this is a letter from -- sorry, from ----
1 Q. [Mr Irving] From Himmler to Sherin Krosik, the Minister of Finance.
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, so the Finance Ministry, so the Finance Ministry was
3not -- the Finance Ministry, he could not write to the
4Finance Ministry, "Actually, we are sending Jews to
5Auschwitz and kill them there" because the Finance
6Ministry was not officially involved in this operation.
7So this is purely deception. The second comment I would
8like to make, show me where is the camp? Where is this
9besonderes Aufanlage, this reception camp, where is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] So you are saying that Sherin Krosik, a Reich Cabinet
11Minister, is having the wool pulled over his eyes by
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. He was simply lying to him, he was deceiving him and
14I do not know where is this camp, this camp for the French
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did you suggest, Mr Irving -- I may have
17misunderstood you -- that these French Jews were going to
18be sent back from Auschwitz to this ----
19 MR IRVING: We had exactly this conversation already four weeks
20ago, my Lord, and the answer is this is what the document
21says. They were going to be sent ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I must say, hearing it read out, it did not
23seem to me it was saying anything of the kind, but I may
24be wrong. I thought it was saying, "It is very expensive
25and a security risk sending French Jews right across
26Germany, therefore, we will build a camp on the Western
1edge of the Reich and they can go there".
2 MR IRVING: And the purpose of the letter is to the Minister of
3Finance: "Please provide the funds because we can save a
4lot of money by doing it like this".
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, your evidence is this is not really
6worth the paper it is written on?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] We know that about 79,000, I think, Jews were deported to
8the East and we have 2,570 survivors, I think, who managed
9to survive in work labour camps. This camp never exists,
11 MR IRVING: Are you familiar with the note made by the member
12of the Judenreferat in Paris, a man called Ahnert --
13A-H-N-E-R-T -- on a conference at the Reisigerhuptsam on
14Jewish questions on September 1st 1942 at about this time?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I do not have the document in front of me so -- do
16you want me to comment on that?
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Now then ----
18 MR RAMPTON: We have the translation of some of these documents
19provided some time ago, but really, with this witness in
20particular, it is essential he sees the original German
21and the whole of the original German.
22 MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you talking now about the document about
24the French Jews?
25 MR RAMPTON: No. We have the translation, as I said, done by
26Mr Irving. It looks to me to be a partial translation --
1I mean in the sense it is not a whole translation. With
2this witness, it simply is not good enough.
3 MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. It is not fair to put these very
4important documents to him.
5 MR RAMPTON: Whether they are important or not is another
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we talking now about the document
8relating to the French Jews and building another camp?
9Mr Rampton, what are you talking about when you ----
10 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is the one, yes, and, apparently, there
11is some other document as well but ... I do not know.
12 MR IRVING: I can summarize it, my Lord. The Ahnet document is
13September 1st 1942. It is a conference on the deportation
14of French Jews and the need to provide them with blankets,
15equipment, spades, shovels and food and everything for a
16camp to be constructed in Russia. This is another
17indication that they are not going to be sent off to
19 Then there is a further document which I intend
20putting to the witness which is referred to again by Gotz
21Aly which is a very important letter by a man called
22Walter Furl -- are you familiar with that letter?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, I think, my Lord, I am going to suggest ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are not going to finish this witness, are
1 MR IRVING: We are not going to finish this witness today. I
2am going to have another half day, unfortunately now, my
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Half day?
5 MR IRVING: Yes, or possibly less.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Dr Longerich, you are based in England
7anyway, are you not?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is true.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] I am afraid we are going to have to ask you to come back
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] All right.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a bit more time. Nothing is written
14 MR IRVING: I think will put the Walter Furl of which I do have
15copies. On this one I am slightly better prepared.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have copies for the rest of us too?
17Shall we decide where to put this, and indeed at the same
18time, Mr Irving or probably Miss Rogers actually, the
19other clip that came first thing this morning?
20 MS ROGERS: I am told by your Lordship's Clerk there is still
21room in J2. Since the Claimant's documents have gradually
22been fed in in date order, at the back of J2. I think it
23is tab 11. If your Lordship does not have tabs we will
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have tabs 1 to 11.
26 MS ROGERS: We will provide you with an 11.
1 MR IRVING: This is a minor matter which I think will take five
2minutes, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have just handed in Aly Gotz.
4 MR IRVING: Yes, and there is an item on it called page 175.
5Again it is from the book by Aly Gotz or Gotz Aly who is
6an established authority on the Final Solution. He says
7in his book that this option of settling the Jews in
8Russia had already taken on a camouflaging function. This
9is his spin on the letter which is important. In the
10letter that Walter Furl, the leading Krakau resettlement
11organizer, wrote to his SS comrades in June 1942. I am
12only going to rely on the text of the actual letter.
13 "Only in retrospect can this be seen as an
14intermediary step on the road to the Holocaust." In
15letter Furl wrote, and this is what is important, Walter
16Furl writes in June 1942 to his SS comrades:
17 "Every day trains are arriving with over a
18thousand Jews each from throughout Europe. We provide
19first aid here", he was writing from Krakau. "He gives
20them more or less provisional accommodation and usually
21deport them further towards the white sea, to the white
22Ruthenian marsh lands where they all - if they survive -
23and Jews from ... Vienna or Pressburg certainly won't,
24will be gathered by the end of the war but not without
25having first built a few roads. (But we are not supposed
26to talk about it)."
1 Do you see in this any echoes of the Wannsee
2conference, the road building?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. I see something completely different here. I am
4asking myself what are your standards for quoting
5documents. This is a part of a document. We do not know
6where the document is. You know, we do not know in which
7context it stood. It is quoted by Gotz Aly, and Gotz Aly
8who has actually researched this area quite thoroughly, is
9commenting on this document, this is a camouflage
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think at this stage I am prepared, because he has seen
13the context and the evidence, I am prepared to follow him
14here, if I have not seen the other parts of the document.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] But this is all he quotes. He does not quote any more
16than this part.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where does he say that it is a camouflage
18document. Camouflaging function, I missed that.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I trust him here. He is right.
20 MR IRVING: Once again this is a document where even though is
21a man writing to his own SS comrades ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is a ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving] --- a private letter?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Part of a private letter, a quotation probably. I do not
25know the context of the letter. Maybe it says in the next
26paragraph: "But this is all nonsense. This is
1camouflage". I do not have the letter. Give me the
2letter and I am happy to comment on it, but I am following
3here Gotz Aly's interpretation, because it seems quite
4reasonable for me and consistent with what I am saying
6 Q. [Mr Irving] I am sorry, Dr K Longerich, quite clearly if Gotz Aly had
7found any evidence in that letter of the kind you
8mentioned, he would certainly have put it in, would he
9not? If there is any other clue in the letter that it was
10camouflage, then, boy, wouldn't he have put it in?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know. I cannot speculate about Gotz Aly's
12attitude here. You are representing a document, only part
13of a document, no context, and you clearly said that the
14author did not accept this as an authentic, as a kind of
15document which reflects the intentions of the Nazis. He
16says it is a camouflage document, and as long as I have
17not seen the document itself I think he is quite right in
19 Q. [Mr Irving] But is it not another reference to the white sea which is
20what Heydrich talked about in Prague two months earlier?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think I do not have to repeat what I am saying. Yes,
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not also a bit of a feeble answer, if I may say so,
24that every time a document comes up that it does not fit
25in with your own preconceptions, like the Schlegelberger
26document or something like that, you say: This is
1unimportant or that is camouflage or you cannot believe
2what this document says?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is not a document. This is a quotation from a book
4somebody quoted add part of a document. This is not a
5document. This is a quotation from a book, and the author
6of the book quite clearly states that he does not believe
7what -- he thinks that this is a camouflage document and
8one should not trust what this SS man is saying.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, in your own expert report you have quoted
10any number of documents printed in other people's books,
11have you not?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have done that, but I have not presented here as
13evidence for actually, you know -- I have not actually
14dared presented them here and saying, well, actually I am
15quoting from a document but I am not going along with the
16conclusions the author drew from this document. So it is
17a different case.
18 MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not want to add any more to that
19document. I have put the document in. I think it is
20significant. The witness thinks it is camouflage.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I do not have any reason to mistrust Gotz Aly in his
22comment on this document, on this part of this document.
23 MR IRVING: Does your Lordship wish to comment on it?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. Thank you very much.
25 MR IRVING: In that case, I would respectfully submit that we
26might adjourn now, it is a useful hiatus point, unless
1Mr Rampton wishes to make a point.
2 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want to make any points. I am
3concerned about the length of time everything is taking.
4It means I think the schedule has to be rewritten. It
5means probably we will not get to Professor Funke until
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why do you say that? Another half day and
8I hope it will be less.
9 MR RAMPTON: Another half day and then I have a day or a day
10and a half cross-examination.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is half a day more than your previous
13 MR RAMPTON: No, it is not. I told somebody, I hope it was
14your Lordship, that I thought it might go over one day,
15beyond a day.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you Dr Funke lined up for Tuesday midday
17just in case?
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will. He will be in court on Tuesday.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON: There is only one other thing. I have from Munich
21now the relevant transcript which, contrary to the thing
22that Mr Irving produced, is not dated 11th May but 12th
23December 1942. It makes it difficult to find things if we
24do not get the right reference. I will pass them out, if
25I may. They are the Karl Wolff and it is the whole thing
26as well, instead of being a redacted version.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whilst we have that in mind shall we just
2have a look and see what it says at the relevant bit?
3 MR IRVING: Yes. I think possibly the witness might like to
4look at it and be asked if he ----
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely, that is what I meant.
6 MR RAMPTON: The relevant page has 4 at the top of it,
7I think. I would prefer actually, my Lord, if it is
8possible, it is a good idea of Miss Rogers, that the
9witness really ought to be given time to read the whole
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He can come back to it, but would you mind
12for my benefit whilst it is in my head just to find ----
13 MR RAMPTON: It is the bottom half of page 4.
14 MR IRVING: Page 31 it starts.
15 MR IRVING: I think it is a useful exercise, my Lord, if
16I translate the entire document.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would be grateful if you would translate
18now for me: "Nach dem rautign Uberglick". I can guess
19what it means, but I am probably wrong.
20 MR IRVING: On which page is that?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is the bottom of page 4, about eight lines
22up from the bottom, six lines up from the bottom.
23 MR IRVING: "According to what we know now that it was perhaps
2470 people from Himmler to Hirst.
25 MR JUSTICE "GRAY: According to what we know now".
26 MR IRVING: Yes, that is the way I would translate that, or
1seen from the present standpoint.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You would rather have a bit of time to
3consider this, would you, Dr Longerich?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put this immediately after 14A
6in your clip.
7 MR RAMPTON: The only thing I would point though is that at the
8bottom of page 4 of what I might call the authentic
9version there is a sentence relating to Martin Bormann
10which naturally makes a link with Hitler which is missed
11out of Mr Irving's version.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Which page is that?
13 MR RAMPTON: Page 31 at the bottom or 4 at the top, there is a
14sentence "G.W. Bormann" and so on and that is not in the
15version that was presented this morning. It is an earlier
16sentence, two sentences earlier, has been missed out as
17well. I do not know whether it is significant.
18 MR IRVING: I will translate the entire document and I will fax
19it through to you at the weekend.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] As far as I can see from the document, he is basically
21saying two things. He is saying, yes, we carried out the
22Holocaust, the Final Solution, we killed, we tried and we
23were able to, we killed millions of Jews. He talks about
24Millionen Morden on page 5, and on the other hand he is
25saying, well, actually Himmler did it on his own
26initiative because he thought that he could fulfil
1Hitler's ideas. So I do not know, I mean I do not know
2how you put your case, you know, how you want to deal with
3the document. Are you saying this is a kind of
4confirmation that millions of Jews were actually killed in
5extermination camps? I mean what is the way you want to
6deal with the document? Are you only relying on parts of
7it and you would then refuse other parts of the documents?
8 MR IRVING: At first blush does the document look self-serving
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, I think so, because he wants to, I mean Wolf's aim
11was of course to distance himself from the events. So he
12is saying, well, actually this operation was only carried
13out by 70 people. So he did not of course admit that it
14was a much, much larger operation. So there is a kind of
15self-serving in it. Also this is his personal, the
16impression he had. He is in talking in 1952 about events
17ten years earlier. Wolff was of course an admirer of
18Hitler and he tried to distance Hitler from the Holocaust,
19from this history. I do not see how much
20I should -- I mean I can accept this is Wolf's view in
211952, but I do not see how this could destroy the other
22evidence. Also which part of the story are you accepting,
23the part that Himmler ordered Millionen Morden, the
24killing of millions of people, or the other part that
25Hitler was not involved in?
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, you have accepted that the order of a million Jews
1were killed on the Eastern Front, I think, there is no
2question about that.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Despite your acceptance that it is
4self-serving, I think it may be quite important to have
5another look at this on Monday morning. I think it might
6be as well perhaps to have in my mind on Monday morning
7the reference when it was first introduced in evidence
8today, because my recollection is that you put it forward
9as being a document which could be relied on.
10 MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord, yes. I certainly will not depart
11from that. I am just about to ask one final question of
12the witness. Dr Longerich, this is an interview between
13Karl Wolff which he has requested to be kept confidential,
14is it not?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, I do not think so.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Did you yourself say that the Karl Wolff collection at the
17time you wished to see it was kept confidential?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, you confuse two points. You referred yesterday to
19memoirs of Karl Wolff, and they are not generally
20accessible, but the collection S Zeugenschrift, I
21know this collection quite well, is open, everybody can go
22in the Institute and make a photocopy and use it. These
23are the internal interviews the Institute made in the
241950s. By the way, the interviews are in a way not
25verbatim transcripts. These are a kind summary that the
26person who made the interviews actually made.
1 Q. [Mr Irving] Were they originally kept confidential, these interviews?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not that I am aware of. I am using this since the 1970s
3and I think they were publicly accessible to everybody.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I notice that Mr Irving's manuscript is ----
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not this one, but I know the collection. I spent a lot of
6time reading this.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving's manuscript is headed
8"Confidential" I notice, but that does not appear to be
9on the original.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Where is that?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is page 14 in the clip you got this
13 MR IRVING: Yes. My Lord, access to a lot of these documents
14is going to be on the basis of confidentiality by the
15Institute, because these people are still alive. My final
16question is, this is an interview by an historian and not
17by a prosecutor, is it not?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] An historian, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you expect an interview by an historian to obtain
20other information from a witness than a prosecutor would,
21a different kind of overall picture?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] One has to discuss the quality of this particular
23interview. An historian, I do not know this person, I do
24not know who -- I think it was Wolfgang Ziegel, as far as
25I can see -- I have my doubts about his quality as a good
26interviewer I have to say. I think he was sitting
1together with people, chatting with them, and then he was
2going home and made a kind of summary. It is not an
3accurate verbatim protocol, a minute of a meeting.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you have any basis for saying that it is not an
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It is not a verbatim, it is not countersigned as far as
7I see from Wolff. So he visited Wolff in Munich in his
8flat, chatted with him, went back to the Institute and
9wrote down, you know, his general view about this.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Would he have taken notes, do you think, during the
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not know. I have no idea. Sometimes interviewees
13say: "Please do not take notes". I do not know what
14Wolff's attitude was. I have no indication of that.
15 MR IRVING: Thank you.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will resume on Monday at 10.30.
17 < (The witness stood down).
18(The Court adjourned until Monday, 28th February 2000