Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition
Pages 186 - 190 of 192
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1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] So that was covered by Hitler's orders, the actual
3transportation movement. That was clearly covered by
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but all the over -- I can accept that, but it is not
6only the transportation. It is the involvement of 10,000
7people in police units, in SS units.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The whole. You do not need to spell it out?
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The whole operation.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: One can imagine how logistically complicated
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] The Holocaust became known in 1942 to the Western world,
13and of course it was used in the Allied propaganda, for
14instance, they dropped leaflets on Germany, and so on. So
15the whole idea that this process could be kept as a secret
16when, you know, 22 officials in the Foreign Ministry alone
17read one of the activity reports of 1941 which quite
18clearly states that thousands of people are shot, and 22
19diplomats were officially allowed to read this. Then to
20argue that this was done behind Hitler's back, it seems to
21me it defies reason.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I have your very clear and full answer
23on that. Mr Irving, I do not know whether you are going
24to move on now?
25 MR IRVING: I have now reached effectively my planning for the
26first report. I will conclude the cross-examination on
1the second report tomorrow, and then I shall be finished
2with Dr Longerich tomorrow, if I may.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you are really saying you would rather
4break off now?
5 MR IRVING: Quite simply because we did zip through the
6glossary. I think it does fall naturally in two stages.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure about that, but if you say you
8would like to break off now then I am perfectly happy with
9that. Can we just see where we are going from here.
10Mr Rampton, are we expecting to have any other witness on
11Thursday? I suppose that depends on Mr Irving.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I can start re-cross-examination Mr Irving on
13Thursday, if we go short with Dr Longerich. If not I will
14do that on Monday. I am expecting Professor Funke to be
15here on Tuesday.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got a whole day's further
17cross-examination, do you think?
18 MR RAMPTON: Probably.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not surprised.
20 MR RAMPTON: Probably, because I have not done the political
21association. Considering the volume of material there is,
22I am going to keep it short, but it is still bound to take
23a bit of time.
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, ought I to question this witness about the
25Schlegelberger document which he has not referred it in
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not, you are quite right, and
2I personally think there is absolutely no need, because if
3there is one topic that has been investigated exhaustively
4it is certainly that one.
5 MR IRVING: I do not want to be criticised for not having done
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not criticise you and I do not think
8Mr Rampton will either.
9 MR IRVING: Your Lordship is aware I attach great importance to
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I realize you do.
12 MR RAMPTON: I would point out, therefore, that it is likely
13that I will place reliance on what Dr Longerich has
14already said about that, which is that, in effect, he
15thinks it is a document of no historical significance.
16 MR IRVING: Yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. The trouble is you cannot nibble at
18these issues. I hope Mr Irving will not take that as an
19invitation to open the whole issue.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, but it is only fair that I should say that.
21I would use as corroboration for reliance on that what
22Professor Evans has said about it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans?
24 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
25 MR IRVING: If Professor Evans wishes to have a chance to
26amplify the reason why he considers it to be insignificant
1or less significant than do I, then this would be the
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer to that is that he will
4not want to.
5 MR RAMPTON: He is in Cambridge.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you meant Dr Longerich, did you not?
7 MR IRVING: That was the correct inference, yes.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he will not want to, but Mr Rampton
9is entitled to rely on his commentary about it. Since
10I know so clearly what the issues are each way on it,
11I really see very little benefit to be derived from going
12through all the points all over again.
13 MR IRVING: I have no desire to.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to I am not stopping you.
15 MR IRVING: But I thought it would only be fair in view of the
16fact that he did express that negative opinion on it, if
17he wished to have the opportunity to amplify on that that
18he should, but if he does not so ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so it is clear, I am not for a moment
20stopping you from cross-examining fully on your reasons
21for saying why the Schlegelberger memorandum is a very
22important document, but I will not hold it against you
23that you did not cross-examine if you do not. I want to
24be absolutely clear what my position on that is.
25 MR IRVING: If your Lordship will not then I shall not.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I think that is a sensible outcome,
1because otherwise it is just a waste of time.
2 MR RAMPTON: Can I give your Lordship two more references to
3close the day.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5 MR RAMPTON: Day 2, page 262, lines 11 to 17, I will read it
6out for Mr Irving's benefit so he knows exactly.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of what?
8 MR RAMPTON: Of my cross-examination in the transcript.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Day 2?
10 MR RAMPTON: Yes, page 262. Again I am afraid for some reason
11best known, perhaps it is that I merely lay the ground and
12all the bright questions seem to be asked by your
13Lordship. Maybe your Lordship has a better facility for
14getting straight answers, I do not know. Anyway, page
15262, line 11, Mr Justice Gray asks Mr Irving:
16 "Do you accept that means," this is about report
17No. 51, "since it is addressed to the Fuhrer that it was
18shown to him?"
19 Answer: "On a high probability, yes, my Lord.
20I would have accepted that as being evidence that it had
21probably been shown to Hitler, but I would also draw
22attention to one, two or three details, if I may, since we
23are looking at the document."
24 Then bottom of page 264, which is on the same
25physical sheet of paper, line 23, again your Lordship is
26asking the question:
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