Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 237
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think anyone is suggesting you are
2not entitled to impugn their reports by evidence or in
3other ways. The question you are really on is whether
4they are entitled to adduce the experts' reports under the
5Civil Evidence Act or not.
6 MR RAMPTON: I have to say, I do not think it is an enormous
7point. If we think we want to rely to any extent on the
8actual contents of the reports of the witnesses that we
9are not calling in person, then naturally we will have to
10persuade your Lordship that we are entitled to do that.
11Presently, my view is that almost everything that I need
12for cross-examination of this subject and for proof is to
13be found in Mr Irving's own words and in documents sent to
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but if you are going to rely on the
16uncalled experts, then it may not take very long because
17I suspect the answer is that the language of the Act does
18not distinguish between expert and lay witnesses.
19 MR RAMPTON: I am almost certain it does not, but I am not
20going to commit myself.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be some authority on it. It does
22strike me as slightly unusual.
23 MR RAMPTON: I have not come across it before but that does not
24mean it cannot be done .
25 MR IRVING: It does certainly put me at a disadvantage, not
26knowing precisely what they are intending to do.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we know what they are intending to
2do. There is a question whether they are entitled to do
4 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, as I understood, has just said that he
5might rely on parts and he might not, which leaves us
6precisely where we were when I into court this morning.
7What I am really asking is that your Lordship should
8direct them, if they intend to rely on part, they must
9indicate what statutes and authorities they are going to
10rely on to open that particular door.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will be a bit more specific about
12it. I think it would be helpful to have it in writing
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there must be a brief written
16submission lodged by -- are we going to finish Professor
18 MR RAMPTON: Professor Evans today -- can I say a little bit
19about how I see things going? Your Lordship may or may
20not agree with me, I do not know. Professor Evans I hope
21will finish today. Then there will be Dr Longerich
22tomorrow. I hope that he will finish either tomorrow or
23Wednesday. Then comes the question what happens next.
24There is a vast amount of material in part generated by
25what one might call the history of Mr Irving's own
26activities in these areas.
1 What Miss Rogers and I and others have been
2doing is to try and reduce all that vast amount of
3material to two files. Those files themselves are quite
4fat. First, I would not want to cross-examine Mr Irving
5on those files without his having seen them, and I do
6believe that the more time he could have to absorb -- it
7is all material which is in the wider range of files
8already. There is nothing new in it, but it has all been
9pulled together. In front of each section the intention
10is to have a little summary of what each section contains,
11which Miss Rogers has been doing with help.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are the people he has associated with,
13is that right?
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes, the people he has associated with,
15organizations and individuals.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: I began to read it over the weekend and it will be
18an extremely valuable set of documents. In the end, it
19will cut things down. My tentative proposal would be
20that, when Dr Longerich has finished, I would have some
21questions of Mr Irving in cross-examination on history,
22but I would leave that association cross-examination until
23the following Monday. Then, when that was finished, which
24would take maybe half a day or a day, I would then call
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are, effectively, suggesting that
1Wednesday onwards should be time for Mr Irving to digest
3 MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday onwards because I will have some
4cross-examination. A combination of Dr Longerich and my
5further cross-examination on history should get us
6probably through all or most of Wednesday. Then what I am
7proposing is we should take the last two days of this week
8off so that Mr Irving can read these files, which he
9should get by, I hope, tomorrow night.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR RAMPTON: If he says he cannot do it in the time, then he
12will say so and your Lordship will hear what he has to
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just revert to the written
15submissions? I think close of business tomorrow for the
16written submissions on entitlement not to call the experts
17but to rely on their evidence.
18 MR RAMPTON: I do not think it will take very long, I may be
19wrong. The new edition of Phippson has just come out, so
20I can have a look in that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Say close of business tomorrow for a short
22note of the submissions.
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you will get it hopefully sometime towards
25the end of tomorrow. Mr Irving what about the suggestion
26Mr Rampton has just made about the way in which we deal
1with the rest of the evidence? I am not going to do
2anything if you have sensible objections to it.
3 MR IRVING: I have no objection to that, my Lord. The
4timetable sounds very sound. If I was to utter a wish and
5I know my wishes count for very little in this court room,
6it would be that one of the spare days should be put
7before Dr Longerich rather than after, to able me to take
8Longerich probably advised, although I am prepared for him
9and, of course, I have read his entire report and have
10prepared a large bundle of material, which would in effect
11being tomorrow being free and Longerich being called on
12the following day.
13 MR RAMPTON: I embrace that enthusiasm, if I may say so. It
14would make our task in completing these files a lot easier
15if we did it that way. I do not any longer have to do any
16preparation for Dr Longerich, except that that will also
17give me the opportunity to finish the history file.
18Mr Irving certainly will need that and, if he can get it
19by close of play tonight, or even lunch time tomorrow,
20that will help.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am happy to do that, providing that we
22have the bundles available so that tomorrow can be used
23looking through your new material. I can use tomorrow.
24 MR RAMPTON: The history file he should have tomorrow, because
25that helps his cross-examination of Dr Longerich. I will
26tell your Lordship how it is proposed to compose it. On
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