Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition
Pages 11 - 15 of 237
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1one side would be in chronological order the German
2documents. So far as they are available, on the facing
3page will be an English translation of the key part. For
4the most part, that can be done just by removing. What I
5have done is to remove the page from the expert report and
6put it facing the German text.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As long as that is going to be available by
9 MR RAMPTON: I will finish that tonight, it will be copied
10tomorrow morning and then distributed as soon as possible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can than be accelerated? I think Mr Irving
12will want to use the whole of tomorrow, and indeed so will
14 MR RAMPTON: I have about another 30 pages to get through.
15When I have done that, it will go off and be copied.
16Whether late tonight or early tomorrow morning, Mr Irving
17will get a copy.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Early tomorrow, yes. That is what we will do
20 MR IRVING: I am very pleased to hear that, my Lord. There is
21one very minor point which then remains. I might either
22put it just as a factual point or put it to the witness in
23cross-examination. This is the fact that, very minor
24point, the 10 a.m. broadcast by Dr Goebbels as opposed to
254 p.m., I have been informed by Mrs Weckert, who heard it,
26that she heard it at her school. It was repeatedly
1broadcast during the day. She heard it as a school child
2and the German school only operated from 8.00 am until
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are going to say that, you can
5certainly put it. There is a technical objection to be
6taken that you cannot really put it unless you have Mrs
7Weckert available. She is alive obviously because you
8have spoken to her recently.
9 MR IRVING: A few days ago.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You could probably correct it by means of a
11Civil Evidence Act notice but, Mr Rampton, I think it is
12reasonable to put this.
13 MR RAMPTON: If Mr Irving says it, Mr Irving says it. Whether
14Mrs Weckert is to be believed is quite another question.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or indeed whether she can remember. I think
16that is a question in cross-examination and not a
18 MR IRVING: Very well. Professor Evans?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, you have been waiting
20patiently. Would you like to resume, now?
21 < PROFESSOR EVANS, Continued
22Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.
23 MR IRVING: Good morning, Professor Evans. Are you aware of
24what time German schools operated during the war years?
25Was it on an all day basis?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] To my knowledge, German schools have never operated on an
1all day basis. They still do not.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I right in saying they start very early and end about
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right, about 1 o'clock.
5 MR IRVING: That is the only question that I can usefully ask.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not put the thrust of it yet. You
8 MR IRVING: I will have to then. In that case, if a Mrs Ingrid
9Weckert was to say that, as a school child, she heard the
10Goebbels broadcast as a school child, when it was
11broadcast to all the school children, on the morning of
12November 10th 1938, would you agree that in that case
13this would mean that she had heard it during the morning?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The question is whether one believe her 62 years after the
15event, and given the fact that she is not to be believed
16in almost anything thing that she writes or says about
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is she the amateur -- perhaps amateur is
20 MR IRVING: An amateur historian who is a right winger.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is accused of being anti-semitic by the
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Whose book has been placed on the black list by the German
24government, my Lord, as anti-semitic and liable to stir up
25racial hatred in its account of the events of 9th and 10th
1 MR IRVING: Professor Evans, you rely quite heavily in your
2expert report on a book by a man called Dr Kogon. Is that
4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not very heavily, no. I do cite it in a number of places.
5It is not solely by him. It is written by him in
6collaboration with others.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I ask you to have a look at this little bundle of
8documents? Your Lordship also has this bundle, I believe.
9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have not seen this before, have I, Mr Irving?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] No. It is a new bundle?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Thank you. I have to say it is rather difficult being
12handed substantial bundles of material every morning by
13Mr Irving without any prior warning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure you are going to be able to
15cope, Professor Evans.
16 MR IRVING: This is the way it works, Professor Evans.
17I submit documents to you and invite you to comment on
18them. Is page 1 an extract from a report in the New York
19Times of December 26th 1987?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It appears to be. It is not a photocopy though it is not
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Does it refer to the fact that a well-known renowned
23anti-Nazi writer and Resistance figure, Eugene Kogon has
24been listed by the United Nations as wanted for mass
25murder on the same list as lists Kurt Valtheim and various
1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It does. It goes on to say, "Hermann Langbann, the
2co-author and long time associate of Dr Kogon said from
3Vienna this week that Dr Kogon had saved many prisoners at
4Buchenwald at great personal risk, and that the
5Commission's listing was a tragic error."
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The New York Times story starts with a reference to
8inaccuracies and untested allegations in the files on
9which such listings appear to rest.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. My Lord, just so you can know where we are going
11today, your Lordship might wish to know that I will
12certainly complete cross-examining the witness on the
13whole of the report up to but not including the
14Adjutants. Quite simply, I am still not certain whether
15the Adjutants are being relied on by the Defence or not in
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is fair because they disappeared
18from the picture at one stage and I think they have
19partially come back in.
20 MR RAMPTON: No, not really. Can I say I rely on the Adjutants
21this far and I have already made the point in
22cross-examination. Professor Evans has already made it
23from the witness box. I rely on the Adjutants to show
24what one might call an uncritical credulity where they are
25concerned as contrasted with what one might call a
26critical incredulity where witnesses say things that Mr
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