Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 14th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24 PROCEEDINGS - DAY NINETEEN
1 <Day 19) Monday, 14th February 2000
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving.
3 MR IRVING: May it please the court. I have given your
4Lordship a little bundle of documents. That is a bundle
5of translations, my Lord, is that right, which your
6Lordship asked for, the Kommissar order and various other
7documents. I do not think your Lordship needs to look at
8it now, but your Lordship did ask for the translations.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very kind of you. Thank you. The
10usual question, where should it go?
11 MR RAMPTON: We do not have them.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the Kommissar order in German?
13 MR IRVING: I have a set of copies for the Defence, but
14I forgot to bring them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could somebody look out where the Kommissar
16order is in German?
17 MR RAMPTON: We do not have the translations, so I do not know
18what document it is.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you remember the Kommissar order being
20referred to? I am not actually sure we have it in German
21either. Anyway, can I leave it with you?
22 MR IRVING: Yes, guidelines and Kommissar order.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
24 MR RAMPTON: The one of May 1941, is that the one?
25 MR IRVING: That is correct, yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: June, I think.
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have also given you a little bundle
2which I have called temporarily bundle F, Professor
3Evans. These are documents which, in the course of
4cross-examination, I intend to put to Professor Evans.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is very helpful to have them all in one
7 MR IRVING: I have provided the defence with four or five sets.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
9 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there is something I should wish to
10mention, if I may. I do it now because time is getting
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: I received on Sunday, yesterday, what purports to
14be a further witness statement of Dr Fox.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON: Has your Lordship been sent that?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think so, no.
18 MR RAMPTON: I think your Lordship should be given a copy.
19 MR IRVING: I have a copy but in fact I decided not to call
20that witness. I should say that now in fact.
21 MR RAMPTON: That is helpful. I can sit down and be quiet.
22 MR IRVING: Quite simply, the witness was going to testify on
23two matters. One was what Mr Rampton referred to as
24freedom of speech matters, and I was also going to add to
25that the police decodes, but I decided on balance that
26I know as much about the police decodes as he does. We
1have both worked on the same body, so I think it would
2help to save the court's time if we do not call him and
3just rely on his written statement.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a matter for you, obviously.
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, I now wish to continue the
6cross-examination of Professor Evans.
7 < PROFESSOR EVANS, Recalled
8< Cross-examined by MR IRVING, continued.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Professor Evans, come back into the
10witness box. I wondered before you start, Mr Irving, if
11I might ask one question that is in my mind of Professor
12Evans. It is this. You were asked, you remember, on
13Thursday what material of Mr Irving's you had been
14studying in order to arrive at the conclusions you arrived
15at in your written report.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Your answer was that you had focused, at any rate, on what
18Mr Irving described as the chain of documents on which he
19relies for his contention that Hitler was relatively
20friendly towards the Jews. I should know myself the
21answer to this, but where does Mr Irving make his
22reference to the chain of documents? I think it is his
23phrase, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I simply cannot remember where and when he made that
1 MR IRVING: My Lord, perhaps I can help? I have made reference
2in various speeches to the chain of documents of course,
3and talks, and probably in the introduction to ----
4 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find it on page 220 of
5Professor Evans's report at paragraph 4.3A(1).
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now that is on the transcript, that may
7really be enough, but can I go to it?
8 MR RAMPTON: BBC Television in June 1977.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is sufficient, Professor Evans.
10Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving. Do you want to pause and find
11it? It will be quicker if you have it, I suspect.
12 MR IRVING: I made a number of sets for the gentlemen of the
13press this morning so that they can follow what we are
14doing, because there were complaints about that, my Lord.
15Today I intend to continue to explore in general, if I can
16just in two lines tell you what I am going to be doing,
17the credibility of the witness with special reference to
18the remarks that he has made about my methodology in the
19introductory parts of his report. We will certainly cover
20the first 100 to 150 pages of the report today, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You must take your own course, but bear in
22mind in the end I am anxious to look at the individual
23criticisms as well as the general comments.
24 MR IRVING: Yes. (To the witness): Professor Evans, today is
25the 55th anniversary of the air raid on Dresden. Would
26you have described that as a Holocaust?
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