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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition

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    --- within hours of Professor Evans getting
 1into the witness box.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Because Professor Evans is a busy man and he has
 3only just answered them. I cannot answer them for him.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that, of course, I understand.
 5 MR IRVING:     I make no criticism of that, my Lord. Obviously,
 6we both have our professional lives to lead, but for this
 7reason it would be pointless for me to cross-examine him
 8on those pages as I certainly shall.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That I accept.
10 MR IRVING:     Because he may very well have answered the matters
11in the meantime. But today I was going to discuss more
12general matters with him. We were going to set the scene
13as far as we possibly can.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but may I just say something about your
15cross-examination? I have spent many hours, to put it no
16higher, on day 16 and day 17 which is, basically, your
17cross-examination of Professor Browning.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Your questions, if I may say so, are clear,
20almost always to the point, but what I would find helpful
21is if you would usually make a point of, if you can,
22directing me to the document that you are cross-examining
23on, or invite the Defendants to direct me to the document
24you are cross-examining on, because you probably
25understand when I go through the transcript (and I am much
26less knowledgeable than you and, indeed, than the

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 1Defendants), I do not always find it very easy to follow
 2the drift of the questioning unless I know what the
 3document says.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I will certainly do so in the written text
 5of my summing up which I shall deliver to your Lordship as
 6a written document as well as spoken.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, remember, I am trying to follow this and
 8digest it as we go along from the transcript so that if
 9you can ----
10 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will have noticed a disparity ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- accommodate?
12 MR IRVING:     --- of effort between the man power on the Defence
13side and the man power on the Claimants' side of this
14case, and I do what I can.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know. I am really inviting the Defendants
16to come to my assistance during your cross-examination.
17The trouble is -- I have said it before, I will say it
18again -- that the documents on certain aspects of this
19case are scattered amongst different files, mostly
20untranslated, and it does not make life any easier. I say
21that with some feeling.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I am not sure if I see that as a rebuke or not.
23It is a fact of life, however. To make your Lordship's
24task easier because, after all, at the end of the case
25your Lordship is going to have a write a judgment, we will
26perhaps, as it were, in conference in open court with your

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 1Lordship try to put together -- we have for some subjects
 2already done it, we did it for Reichskristallnacht, we
 3have done it for Dresden and some other things.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They are fine, those two topics.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     But there are, obviously, a number of key
 6documents which your Lordship rightly says and,
 7unsurprisingly, since the bundles have not been agreed in
 8the usual way, but are simply the experts' references,
 9they are scattered all over the place, we need to draw
10them together. When we have done that, I think we need
11some help from your Lordship about which ones you would
12like us to translate.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I agree with all of that, but just
14looking ahead, for example on Longerich -- it is too late
15on Professor Evans and it may not be a problem with Evans
16-- it would be helpful to perhaps, prepare, a little
17bundle in advance.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I agree, yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be you have done all this already, but
20if you have not, do you think that could be considered?
21 MR RAMPTON:     My working is different. I have taken all the
22documents already from different experts for use in
23cross-examination, which is a slightly different exercise.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I will have to leave it to you, but
25bear in mind I am not rebuking so much as just expressing
26a real problem.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I understand it as a plea for help.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In a way, it is exactly that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Which I fully understand. So what we will try to
 4do, if we can, is get a Longerich bundle together, but it
 5may well include some documents from other places.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Irving, there are some other
 7documents here. Should I look at those now or are they
 8for later?
 9 MR IRVING:     No. I will draw your attention to them when the
10time comes, but I am going to draw your attention or
11remind your Lordship of what we call the Kinna document,
12K-I-N-N-A, which was a late arrival. I am almost tempted
13to say it is a glamorous arrival. It arrived late from an
14anonymous source, your Lordship will remember, and your
15Lordship asked the Defence to take two weeks to find out
16where it came from. They have know provided that
17information to me last night.
18     It is a document which I regard as suspect
19inasmuch as it comes from a 1960's Polish publication,
20what we would call a blue book and the Germans a white
21book an the Nazis a brown book, I suppose, or the East
22Germans. It is that kind of publication. I make no
23criticism of that. I am not going to attack the integrity
24of the document because I am not in position to. But they
25have also produced in support of the document the
26testimony of the man who signed it, as I understand it

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 1taken in.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we first of all go to this document?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord. It was, I think produced ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember it.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     -- during the course of -- I am going to hand it
 7 MR IRVING:     I am not going to deal with the contents of the
 8document. I understand I will be cross-examined on it.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but if you are saying about it, I want to
10look at it so I know what you are talking about.
11 MR RAMPTON:     There was a translation at some time. I do not
12know where that has got to. It is a report from a place
13called Zanosk which is in Poland of 16th December 1942
14about the transport of some 644 Poles to Auschwitz. It
15has a real significance so far as, indeed, not just
16Auschwitz, but the Holocaust as a whole, in its second
17paragraph on page 2, which somebody, might be the source,
18has put a line beside, and the question was really this
19for the moment, what authenticity does it have?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving was worried about that. We now know
22that it was reprinted as a facsimile in a Polish book in
231960, which is produced by the Warsaw archive which is, no
24doubt, where it is, also again in 1979 and then the last
25document where it was translated from German into Polish,
26and in the last document is the testimony man Kinna

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