Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition

Pages 1 - 214 of 214


 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Tuesday, 8th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY SEVENTEEN
26

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 1 <Day 17Tuesday, 8th February 2000.
 2 < PROFESSOR BROWNING, recalled.
 3< Cross-Examined by MR IRVING, continued.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think there is a suggestion that
 5we might at some stage amalgamate the documents really
 6relating to Professor Browning's evidence which at the
 7moment are in two separate places.
 8 MR IRVING:     Miss Rogers has very kindly volunteered to do this
 9task and I willingly accept that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just mentioning it to you in case you
11had any feelings on the topic, but I think it must be
12sensible. I wonder whether we might not keep the
13pagination? Otherwise the transcript will make very
14little sense. Can I leave that to you? Yes, Mr Irving?
15 MR IRVING:     May it please the court, I have given your Lordship
16a little bundle of documents, on the basis of which I wish
17to cross-examine the witness this morning.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Let us decide where we are going to put
19those.
20 MR IRVING:     Whatever occurs under the new regime, I think.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Temporarily it had better go into J or L,
22I do not mind which.
23 MS ROGERS:     L.
24 MR IRVING:     L. I think the simplest thing to do, Professor
25Browning, is if we just go through this heap in sequence.
26You will agree that the first few documents apparently

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 1come from the Himmler papers, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They come from the administrative and economic main office
 3of the SS which is under Himmler.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment, Mr Irving, will you?
 6Yes, Mr Irving.
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I should explain the purpose of the
 8following questions is to go to the quantum, the figures
 9really. That is all I am looking at. It is Operation
10Reinhardt. These are documents from a file in Himmler's
11papers called Operation Reinhardt. (To the witness):
12Professor Browning, is it correct that these documents
13appear to come from the Hoover Library in California, if
14you look down the slash on the side?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And can you recognize the initials of Heinrich Himmler on
17the top copy?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, this document is of high level, shall
20we say?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are Himmler's initials?
23 MR IRVING:     The HH under the word "Hehler" about three inches
24from the top right-hand side of the document.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     I am purely interested in the very first line of

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 1the letter under the word "Reichsfuhrer", where it says:
 2No. 1. Then, when you translate the next sentence, this
 3"Bis 30.4.1943 sind angeliefert"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Up until the 30th April 1943 had been delivered".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Had been delivered the following", right?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look then at the list that follows, it is a number
 8of items, a rather sad list, I suppose, a tragic list, of
 9wristwatches, is that right, for men and women?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Fountain pens?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Razor blades and other valuable items, is that right?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These are all the sort of things that would have been in
15one's toiletries or personal possessions, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Where had these items come from?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These were formerly Jewish possessions, but I see nothing
18so far that says which camps they came from.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I draw your attention to the reference line at
20the top of the transcript, the Verwertung, the
21exploitation of -- then comes one of their stock phrases,
22is it not, "Jewish plundering loot", is that correct?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In fact, I have not seen that first phrase, but the
24"Diebesguts", the stolen goods, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the way that they sought to legitimate what they
26are doing, is that correct?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, their stance was all that Jewish property had been
 2stolen by Jews originally, so they were repossessing they
 3claimed what was properly German property.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, a very distorted, perverse, kind of thinking, right?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A rationale that appears.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does this help on numbers?
 7 MR IRVING:     It helps on numbers, my Lord, because we have
 8numbers of items that had been collected from the victims
 9by April 30th 1943.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not say "from when".
11 MR IRVING:     I am hoping that the witness will assist us on
12this.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us ask.
14 MR IRVING:     Where did these items come from, these valuables?
15Did they come from victims of Operation Reinhardt?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I see nothing in the document that says Operation
17Reinhardt.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Can I take you, therefore, to page 4, the
19handwritten number at the bottom?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you will notice in the third line of the letterhead
22the initials "Reinh." in the top left-hand corner?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Reinh", yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you to page 10, and on the same letter head
25also we have Reinhardt?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Those two documents do have the "Reinh.".

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you. And on the page 12 -- I am sorry, it is the
 2same document. So, if these items come from an SS folder
 3which is called Operation Reinhardt and these particular
 4documents have the initials "Reinh." on them, and they
 5appear to be items stolen from the Jews or from victims,
 6Jewish victims in fact, depending on the subject line, on
 7the face of it, this is a list provided to Himmler of
 8items that have been stolen from the Jews up to April 30th
 91943. Is that a reasonable interpretation?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of the inventory in the first document where we
11do not have the reference to Reinhardt, it is at least
12conceivable this was property taken from German Jews about
13to be deported, and could easily have been stuck in the
14same folder. I do not see anything there that would
15necessarily lead us to conclude that the first inventory
16came from camps in Poland. It could well be that this was
17possessed Jewish property taken while Jews were being in
18the process of being deported from Germany, but stuck in
19the same folder because it always was relating to Jewish
20property.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know what happened to these valuables that were
22collected in Operation Reinhardt? Where did they go
23initially?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen documents that show a wide variety of
25distribution.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they overhauled, were they recycled in some way

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 1before they were parcelled out?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Once collected at the three camps in Poland they are taken
 3to Lublin where you have several camps, the old airport
 4camp, for instance, where some sorting and reconditioning
 5was done. Some of the properties were distributed there
 6to ethnic Germans and any German unit that needs something
 7can come and ask to be given something.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you to document 10?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this say that they have a number of, 20,000, pocket
11watches and various other valuables at present at
12Oranienburg, and does the next paragraph say that the
13watches and fountain pens have been overhauled and are
14ready to be dispatched?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The topic of the document is watch distribution to members
16of the SS.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And then below they give you the different kinds. Would
19you allow me a moment to read the document?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you read the paragraph beginning with the word
21"Insgesamt"?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. At the moment in Office D there are for repair
23100,000 hand wristwatches, 39,000 pocket watches, 7,500
24alarm clocks, 37,000 pens and so forth.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no indication of any other stocks of valuables of
26this nature being processed by this central processing and

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 1overhauling department?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we have all the files, all the documents
 3in the files? I take the point you are making.
 4 MR IRVING:     This was all the documents in this file. I picked
 5them in California about five or six weeks ago.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the file complete? Is it intact?
 7 MR IRVING:     I have no way of knowing, of course, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the problem. I see what are you
 9getting at. Professor Browning, can you help on that? Is
10this likely to be a complete record? We have only looked
11at three documents.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Since so much was destroyed I think we presume a lot of
13them are not complete records. I have seen fragmentary
14records from the archive in Lublin where less valuable
15materials is distributed there. I think very valuable
16things like watches and whatever do have to be sent in
17but, if somebody wants furniture or wants clothing, they
18can requisition that in Lublin from these camps and they
19are never sent back to Berlin. Small volume high value
20items would be sent back. It would be something that
21would be worth shipping back, such as these particular
22items.
23 MR IRVING:     Do you agree that this document on page 10, which
24is dated November 29th 1944, and has the heading or
25subheading Operation Reinhardt in its address list, says
26that altogether at present there are at Amtsgruppe D at

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 1present being repaired 100,000 wristwatches, presumably a
 2rounded off number and various other valuables?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That gives an order of magnitude. It does not indicate
 5there are any other treasure troves of such valuables
 6anywhere else in the SS system, does it?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It says these are the ones that are available for
 8distribution. We have no idea if there are lots of other
 9kinds of valuables that have been sent elsewhere, but at
10least that much has been taken out for purposes of
11distribution to the SS.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you back to page 1 again, which is about 18
13month earlier, is it not, 13th May 1943?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     That says that by April 30th 1943 we have received,
16effectively there have been delivered to us, 94,000 men's
17watches?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it likely that these were taken from the victims in the
20camps?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Again, it may well be that these were taken in Germany.
22It could be possible they were taken from the camp. In
23both, at least in the second case, I would presume that
24there was a selection of the best ones that they were
25sending back for repair for the Waffen SS. Cheaper goods
26in general would not have been worth doing that.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does page 10, Professor, relate entirely to
 2Oranienburg?
 3 MR IRVING:     Oranienburg, my Lord, was the headquarters was it
 4not? Witness, was not Pohl actually based at Oranienburg,
 5the head of this particular section?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The part of the administrative and economic main office
 7that dealt with concentration camps is in Oranienburg, so
 8Ampt D, which is here, is stationed in Oranienburg, or at
 9least part of it. It says by the Office D in Oranienburg
10so we know at least they have one office there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     All the wealthy Holocaust victims, either at the time they
12were dispatched from their places of residence or upon
13their arrival in the camps, were systematically robbed of
14their valuables by Operation Reinhardt, or as part of
15Operation Reinhardt? Is that correct?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Operation Reinhardt, in a sense, is the last stage of a
17long process of dispossession because the Jews in Germany
18were disposed of much of their property for that. When
19they were put on the trains the last things like rings and
20valuables and jewellery are taken. These are the small
21personal possessions they would still have been allowed.
22Again in Poland Jews are dispossessed of their property
23and moved into ghettoes and, when they are taken to the
24camps, the last remaining possessions are taken by
25Operation Reinhardt. Operation Reinhardt, in a sense, is
26the last cleaning up of whatever property had not been

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 1taken already.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not many more questions on this matter, Professor. Would
 3you be able to make any kind of global estimates on these
 4kind of data and say, well, therefore, the number of
 5victims was not less than a certain figure and it was
 6probably not more than a certain figure, on the basis that
 7of course not everybody had valuable wristwatches or
 8valuable fountain pens, but on the other hand not many
 9people wear two wristwatches, shall we say, so it was
10probably not less than 100,000 people? Can you say that?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that this would help us with a minimum figure
12but it would be nowhere close to a maximum figure because
13they are presumably skimming the cream and taking the very
14best things. Most Jews would have traded their
15wristwatches for food and whatever else long before this
16if they were in desperate straits, which they were. So it
17does not give us anything approaching a maximum figure.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Can I intervene to say that I just have done some
19arithmetic? It is not obviously an exhaustive figure for
20whatever reason, but the total under A on this page is
21200,000 items.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which page are you?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Page 10, my Lord, at A. Many of these items may
24of course come from the same person, one does not know.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I was wondering. You can have a
26fountain pen and a watch.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Of course you can.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What was the number?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     200,000 precisely.
 4 MR IRVING:     Exactly, but it is giving orders of magnitude, in
 5my opinion, my Lord. We are really clutching at straws
 6and trying to arrive at figures. Is it not right,
 7Professor, that our statistical database for arriving at
 8any kind of conclusions for the numbers of people who have
 9been killed in the Holocaust by whatever means, we are
10really floundering around in the dark, are we not? Is
11that correct?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I would not express it that way. I would say we have
13a very accurate list of the deportation trains from
14Germany. In many cases we have the entire roster name by
15name and we are not floundering. We can tell you, as we
16have seen in the intercepts, 974 on one train.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I interrupt you there and you say in many cases, but,
18of course, had we got a complete list of all the ----
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can I finish my answer.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- trains, then ----
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     May I finish my answer?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him finish. You have been very good,
23Mr Irving, but let him finish this answer.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms again of France, the Netherlands, the countries
25from which there were deportations from Western Europe, we
26can do a very close approximation by trains, the number of

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 1people per train.
 2     In the area of Poland, there were at least
 3statistics in terms of ghetto populations and these
 4ghettos were liquidated completely, so we can come to a
 5fairly good rough figure of Polish Jews. We also have a
 6fairly reliable prewar census and postwar calculations so
 7that one can do a subtraction. So, in terms of Holocaust
 8victims from Poland westward, we are not floundering. We
 9are coming fairly close approximation.
10     Where historians differ and where you get this
11figure of between 5 and 6 is because we do not have those
12figures for the Soviet Union.
13 MR IRVING:     Can I halt you at this point ----
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is where we are -- that the numbers vary greatly.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But can I halt you at that point and say the fact that a
16train load of Jews sets out from Amsterdam or from France
17does not, of course, necessarily mean that they end up
18being gassed or killed in some other way, does it?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If they are sent to camps like Treblinka or Sobibor or
20Chelmno or Belzec, yes, they are virtually all
21exterminated.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of eyewitness evidence?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     On the basis of, yes, what I have presented here. We know
24that ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which we are coming to later on?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and they do not come back.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They disappear.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the Nazis did not want them to come back, but would
 4you accept that large numbers were also the subject of,
 5shall we say, population movements, particularly in the
 61939/1940 period. You talked about the Jews in Poland?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, this is a move from one area of German control to
 8another. So Jews that are moved from the Warthegau into
 9the General Government are then included in the ghetto
10population statistics of the various towns in the General
11Government and those ghettos are then liquidated and they
12count as part of the disappearance ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you mean "the ghetto is liquidated", you mean the
14ghetto is just wound up?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The ghetto is empty. People are put on trains.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Emptied, but the word "liquidated" is rather suggestive
17that something else is happening?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, that was the German term. "Ghetto liquidierung" is
19their word, and that these liquidation, ghetto
20liquidations, also we know the mode in which they were
21carried out with extraordinary brutality and ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but come back to Poland for a minute. You talk about
23the fact that we had the prewar population census and the
24postwar census. We are having a major problem with Poland
25because the whole of Poland was shifted westwards as a
26result of the agreements, so what do you mean by Poland?

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 1This is the first problem. Is that not right?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, you are talking about territory, but the Polish
 3population in terms of number of Jews left at the end
 4really is not changed or altered by a shifting of borders
 5because there were no Jews in either the German or the
 6Polish territory.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     They also have a problem caused by the fact that the
 8Soviet Union arbitrarily declared that everybody who was
 9in the Soviet occupied part of certain parts of Poland
10became Soviet citizens. After they had entered,
11I believe, on September 19th or September 17th 1939, did
12they not arbitrarily declare after that that large number,
13the citizens who had previously been Polish were now
14Soviet citizens?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but those areas ten fall back under the Germans and
16they are part of the statistics -- I mean, the prewar
17census we have is pre1939.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that the Jews who were in the Soviet part
19of occupied Poland in 1939 stayed there until the Germans
20invaded two years later?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think most did. Some did manage to get -- those that
22were saved, for the most part, were the ones that Stalin
23sent on to Siberia.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right the figure of those who left and were sent on
25to Siberia was of the order of 300,000?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The total number of Polish Jews in Siberia I do not think

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 1is even close to that. We know that the estimated number
 2of Jews that fled or were deported from the German zone to
 3the Soviet zone in 1939/1940 was in the magnitude of 200
 4to 300,000. How many for 1941 are, in a sense, caught in
 5the German advance which in these areas, of course, is the
 6very first territories they overcome, that you do not have
 7any indication that very large numbers escaped at all.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there is an area of uncertainty, is there not?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The point at which the German documents start saying "The
10Jewish populations have managed to flee" is when you get
11much deeper into the Soviet Union where it took longer for
12the Russian armies to get to and there was more warning.
13The German documents indicate only then are they beginning
14to find that the Jews had managed to flee before they
15arrived.
16     So, while there is certainly a degree of
17uncertainty, to suggest that significant vast numbers of
18Jews escaped from these very border territories the very
19first days occupied by the German Army, I do not think is
20-- it is not one that I can accept.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But is not the evidence, in fact, that the Soviet Union
22had evacuated large parts of their forward territories in
23preparation for their attack on Germany, and that when the
24Germans advanced into these areas in Operation Barbarossa
25in June 1941 they found the population relatively thin
26because of these evacuations?

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not think so.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we ----
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There were deportations of what they -- there were
 4deportations of what they considered political enemies.
 5 MR IRVING:     So, in other words, I am not right in suggesting
 6there is any area of uncertainty about the figures, in
 7your view?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. What I said is the area of greatest uncertainty is
 9the areas of the Soviet Union and that from that boundary
10westward we come to a fairly close proximation. After
11that it varies, estimates vary greatly.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just interrupt because I want to go
13back to Operation Reinhardt which is where we started and
14we have rather sort of spread out from there. Can you --
15Mr Irving, you are probably going to ask this at some
16stage anyway -- put an estimate on the number of people
17you would say were killed by gassing at the smaller death
18camps like Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The numbers that the German courts came to in their
20investigations in which they emphasised that they were
21using the minimum estimate so that this would not be a
22controversy between the defence and the prosecution, in
23the first Treblinka trial, I believe it was 700 or
24750,000. By the second Treblinka trial, they had upped
25that figure to 9 or 950,000. Belzec is estimated at about
26550,000. Sobibor, I believe they estimated 200,000, and

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 1Chelmno, as a minimum, I think they said 150,000, but they
 2thought it was more likely in the 250,000 area.
 3 MR IRVING:     When were these estimates made?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These were in the various judgments of the 1960s in German
 5courts.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     1960s and 1970s or 1960s?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These particular trials, I believe, all -- and I think the
 8last one was in 1968/69, so I think all of those concluded
 9before 1970.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say these figures were reached at by agreement between
11the parties?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These were the figures that were put into the judgment and
13what the prosecution said -- I mean, let me see if I
14can phrase this right, I want to be very careful on this
15-- that this was the figure that in a sense was in the
16realm where they had sufficient documentation that it was
17not contested. Then you have the estimate, possible
18additional that they did not want to put into the judgment
19or the indictment because they did not want that to be an
20obscuring issue or become a detracting issue, "Well, we
21did not kill 250,000, we killed only 200,000".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I was going to ask, to put it in common language, was it
23any skin off anybody's nose if people added 100,000 more
24or less? I mean, was anybody going to get a shorter
25sentence because the numbers were lower or a longer
26sentence because the numbers were higher? What I am

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 1getting at is were the figures properly tested in court?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The figures were reached in general by historical expert
 3witnesses that submitted these to the court and they were
 4open to cross-examination by the Defence.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And these witnesses were German or?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The most, the most active witness was Wolfgang Schafler
 7who was a German historian.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     A German historian?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that the very reputable German historian too.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A very reputable German historian, who, in fact, looked
12at ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if you challenge these figures,
14I think now is the time to do so. I do not know whether
15you do or you do not.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not in a position to challenge them
17on a numerical basis, but I do wish to plant or implant
18doubts in your Lordship's mind as to the rigour with which
19the figures have been arrived at, shall I put it like
20that? All I have to establish, if I have understood it
21correctly, in your Lordship's mind is the position that
22I am entitled, as a writer myself, not to be called a
23Holocaust denier because I question figures. I can put it
24as simply as that. Your Lordship has a different take on
25that, I ought to be told it now perhaps in order that I
26can ----

.   P-19



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure about "ought", but I understand the
 2way you use this evidence.
 3 MR IRVING:     I mean, this is not a court of law, criminal law,
 4where they are trying somebody for murder. We are just
 5trying to establish a matter of Holocaust denial really
 6which is a different standard of proof, I think.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Would it be helpful if I said a little bit about how
 9Schafler arrived at his figures?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it might be in the sense that
11Mr Irving is really saying, "Well, I question the figures"
12and I think he must by implication be saying, "and I have
13good grounds for questioning the figures". So I think if
14you wanted to add something about the way in which the
15figures were arrived at, I think that would be helpful.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the figures for each of the camps he did by trying to
17trace the ghetto liquidations at the different periods
18into which camps they were sent. So we have a very
19accurate reduction of the Lodz population, which trains
20went to Chelmno, when, and we can come very accurately to
21the number of people deported from Lodz to Chelmno, then
22one is on a little bit less secure grounds for the various
23other surrounding towns where we do not have a day by day
24deduction or a train by train calculation, but we do have
25statistics of what the populations were there before the
26whole operation began.

.   P-20



 1     So with some rough estimate of how many would
 2have been selected for labour, he came to a figure for
 3Lodz as a minimum figure and then a more probable but not
 4putting forward as necessarily a somewhat higher figure.
 5He did the same calculations for the other camps.
 6     We know how many Dutch transports went to
 7Sobibor. We know which regions were cleared that were
 8directed to Sobibor. We had the figures of the Jewish
 9populations in those ghettos before the liquidation and
10the number of workers that were shifted to some of the
11work camps, and it was on the calculation, on that basis
12that he arrived at his figures.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very helpful.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do ask anything you want, Mr Irving.
16 MR IRVING:     I think this is probably an appropriate point to
17ask the witness about the atmosphere in Germany for
18historians. Is it possible for an historian in Germany
19now, whether reputable or disreputable historian, to
20advance opposing hypotheses in any degree of safety?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Oh, absolutely. For instance, in this court earlier I saw
22in the transcript you said that no one could refer to the
23Himmler guidelines without risking that -- the intercept
24of the Himmler guidelines, and, of course, Christian
25Jerloch has published that in Germany, and has suffered
26absolutely no repercussions and there is no question that

.   P-21



 1he would, that there is a very vigorous discussion among
 2German historians on the Holocaust.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But would I be right in saying this discussion is skewed
 4or distorted by the fact that anybody who goes to the
 5other end of the spectrum, shall we say, and starts
 6saying, "I think the figures are much lower because, for
 7example, it was not a systematic liquidation" or anything
 8like that, anybody who accidentally says one of the taboo
 9phrases in Germany is going to end up in trouble, in
10prison, and that this must certainly cast apprehensions in
11the mind of somebody about which side of the debate he
12takes?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that is nonsense. For instance, Hans Monson
14shares your view that Hitler did not give an order.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you tell the court who Hans Monson is?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Hans Monson is a very notable historian at the University
17of Bochum, now retired boss tonne.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is not a Holocaust denier, is he?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You asked me with taboos and one of the things that has
20generally been seen that you have been identified with is
21the argument that Hitler did not make the decision. Hans
22Monson and Martin Broszat have accepted or have argued
23that Hitler did not give an order or a decision----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I just halt you there? It would be useful if you
25would----
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am still talking.

.   P-22



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are interrupting a little bit,
 2Mr Irving. Try and restrain yourself until the end of the
 3answer.
 4 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will know why I want to interrupt
 5there.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Far from being thrown in jail or fearing, Hans Monson
 7currently is the Shapiro Visiting Scholar at the United
 8States Holocaust Museum. There is a wide of range of
 9debate covering a wide spectrum of opinion. There is in
10Germany a law that outlaws Holocaust denial, but I know of
11no German historian that I have come across that has lost
12a night's sleep worrying that this prevents him from
13arguing from documents and from carrying out a full
14academic discussion.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you heard of Dr Reinhard Seitelmann?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have heard of Dr Reinhard Seitelmann. I know him.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the course of his career after he
18made certain statements? Was he originally a historian at
19the free university in Berlin?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think this is a digression
21really.
22 MR IRVING:     Very well. Would you explain to the court then who
23Professor Martin Broszat was? Was he an eminent German
24historian?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. He was the head of the Institute for Contemporary
26History in Munich.

.   P-23



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     His opinion on my hypothesis that Hitler did not issue an
 2order or that there is no Hitler order, are you familiar
 3with that?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He takes your view that Hitler did not know of this, or
 5that it was kept secret from him, or he would not have
 6authorized it. That it was done by others behind his back
 7he does not accept. He does not think that Hitler gave an
 8order for or made a decision for the Final Solution, but
 9that rather he ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     It just happened?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He encouraged it, he instigated it in the sense that he
12made known his feelings and that others clamoured, or
13strove to gain Brownie points to get credit by realising
14the programme that Hitler hinted that he wanted to see
15done.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the word Verliegenheitslosung, a way
17out of an awkward solution, a way out of an awkward
18problem?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He used the phrase that it was a way out of a Sackgasse,
20out of a dead end.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     He picked up this word from the introduction to my book
22and said this was probably correct. Are you familiar with
23that?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know if he picked that expression up from your
25book, but he did. In so far as the issue of the Hitler
26order, Monson and Broszat have argued for a long time, as

.   P-24



 1you have, they do not think that Hitler gave an explicit
 2or formal order.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It would be a grave injustice to call either of those two
 4professors Holocaust deniers, would it not?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. The argument over whether Hitler gave an order or not
 6is not commonly part of the issue of Holocaust denial.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much for saying that. Hans Monson, would
 8you identify him? Is he a Professor at the Royal
 9university in Bochum?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, he was. He is retired.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     A very eminent historian, is that correct?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. I hope your Lordship pardons me for having
14made that little excursion?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You picked up the answer that Professor
16Browning gave about whether denying Hitler's having given
17an order was an aspect of Holocaust denial, but I do not
18think the Defendants really say that it is.
19 MR RAMPTON:     We do not.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was checking your summary of case.
21 MR RAMPTON:     The Hitler exculpation, exoneration, apology part
22of the case has nothing to do with Holocaust denial at
23all. They may have a similar motive at the end of the day
24but that is completely different. We have focused on
25Hitler's exoneration to prove what we call distorted
26history.

.   P-25



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think what you do say is that it is
 2part of Holocaust denial to deny that there was a
 3systematic programme.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is not the same as denying that it was
 6Hitler who instigated that programme.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That is right. It is number 3, no systematic
 8programme of exterminating Europe's Jews, whether on the
 9part of Hitler or the Nazi leadership.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that Professors Monson and Broszat would say that
11Hitler instigated it in various ways. They would simply
12say there was no formal order or decision in the sense
13that we understand that is the way ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say that yourself.
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 MR IRVING:     Is this the debate between the intentionalists and
17the functionalists?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is one aspect of that debate.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     By instigating it, would you say that Hitler instigated it
20by raising the climate of anti-semitism in Germany, or was
21it more specific than that?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that was the beginning of it, but it gets also
23more specific than that when one continually indicates
24that you want this whole problem to disappear, that you
25want a settlement to this. You prophesy a disappearance
26of the Jews, which is in a sense to set the climate in

.   P-26



 1which people are to come forward to you with proposals
 2which you then can approve or not. We know the pattern
 3that Himmler comes to Hitler in mid September with the
 4proposals for the ethnic cleansing of western Poland.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     September 1939?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He comes to Hitler. They bring the Madagascar plan to
 7Hitler. They bring proposals about marking and
 8deportation to Hitler. In terms of concrete proposals
 9Hitler is not the micromanager, but the proposals are a
10response to the signals that he gives of what he wants and
11wants done, and this is what I would say we would call
12instigation.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer to his prophesy, that was the speech of January
1430th 1939?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is one example.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     That was January 30th 1939. Did the killings start
17immediately?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. That is a prophesy that could be realised in a number
19of ways.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Nothing really happened for about three years, did it?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I would not interpret that as understood yet as total
22destruction. But when this does not work and there still
23needs to be -- that is, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, does
24not work, the reservation plans prove to be impractical,
25then the demand that something be done is still there, and
26then one brings more extreme points.

.   P-27



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     How realistic was the Madagascar plan to which you just
 2referred?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Do I think they took it seriously? Yes, I do think they
 4took it seriously. It is fantastic but of course
 5Auschwitz is fantastic, too.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what way is Madagascar a fantastic plan?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Fantastic in the sense that one is bizarre, the notion
 8that you could take 4 million Jews and put them on ships
 9and send them to Madagascar, and that anything other than
10the vast bulk of them would die under the conditions of
11being dumped into the jungle of Madagascar. Even that a
12plan that clearly in its implications involved vast
13decimation, they still talked in these words of
14resettlement.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not exactly what happened with the state of
16Israel? Millions of these people were taken and dumped in
17Israel, so to speak, although they did it voluntarily? It
18was an uprooting and a geographical resettlement.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The number of people coming into Israel of course came in
20gradually and there was a structure and an organization to
21arrange for and assist their reception.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen in the German files references to the
23planning for the Madagascar settlement? In other words,
24the necessary retraining, the agricultural specialists and
25everything being set up by the Foreign Ministry and by the
26German Navy, the Naval staff?

.   P-28



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I did not see some setting up retraining. I saw them
 2planning to take all the property and who would be in
 3charge of gathering the Jews, and that it would be an SS
 4state at the other end, but I certainly did not see, as
 5part of the files on Madagascar, retraining. There was
 6some toleration of Zionist groups in Germany setting up
 7agricultural camps in the prewar period when they were
 8trying to encourage the emigration of Jews, be it to
 9Palestine or anywhere else.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Adolf Hitler repeatedly referred to the Madagascar
11solution, did he not, from 1938 in the Goebbels diaries
12right through until July 24th 1942 in the table talk?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Madagascar plan is a concrete plan, in which people
14are actually working on it. It is the period of June to
15September 1940, but there are references to Madagascar
16earlier and later. It is an idea that had floated in a
17number of anti-semitic pamphlets and the Jewish expert of
18the German Foreign Office in fact, who sort of arrived at
19this on his own, claimed that he got the idea from reading
20one of these pamphlets, so it was an idea in the air.
21This was one of the sort of anti-semitic fantasies that
22this problem would disappear if all of these Jews could be
23sent to the most distant island they could conceive of.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Out of mind, out of sight. Would you agree that it was
25Hitler's pipe dream?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would not call it pipe dream, because I think, if

.   P-29



 1England had surrendered, they would have tried to do it.
 2They would have tried to implement it just as they tried
 3to implement the Lublin reservation plan and just as they
 4tried and succeeded in implementing the death camp plans.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen indications in the negotiations with France
 6over the peace settlement with France, the armistice
 7negotiations, that there was an attempt by the Germans to
 8secure permission for the Madagascar plan because
 9Madagascar was a French territory?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought it was British.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, French.
12 MR IRVING:     Madagascar was French but it became British after
13May 26th 1942, my Lord, or thereabouts, when we did the
14usual thing.
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They sent people to the French colonial ministry to get
16information on Madagascar. They certainly did not need
17French permission, and I am not sure how much this was a
18topic in armistice negotiations that were going on after
19the armistice, I do not know how much that was a topic
20between them.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You think it was a totally impracticable proposition, the
22idea of sending 6 million Jews, or whatever it was, to an
23island the size of Madagascar?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think they would have attempted it, and I think the
25results would have been disastrous.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would they have been disastrous?

.   P-30



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Because I think a large percentage of the people sent
 2there would have perished.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think that the Jews are a very sturdy people. They have
 4shown that by their forthrightness in Palestine, have they
 5not?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think the conditions under which they arrived there, an
 7island which the documents said clearly was to be an SS
 8state, would not have been anything remotely similar to
 9the conditions of an attempted and organized reception of
10refugees in Palestine after 1945.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     The population of Madagascar at that time was about 1
12million?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I could not say.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The population of Madagascar now is over 13 million?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I could not say.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it could have housed that number of people quite
17easily? It is a country the size of Germany, is that
18correct?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would depend on the circumstances and indeed bringing
20Jews in, and all of their property taken, and under SS
21custody, I do not think one could say that they would have
22been housed easily. I think it would have been lethal.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     If Hitler's intention was to exterminate all the Jews
24systematically, then why would he have had a pipe dream of
25sending the Jews to a country like Madagascar where they
26would have survived?

.   P-31



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is where we get to the interpretational issues of the
 2intentionalist and functionalist. I do not believe at
 3that point that he intended to destroy the Jews
 4systematically. He wanted a problem to disappear.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     When did the intention then develop? This is important
 6I think.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Let us get on to that.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As I say in my report, my feeling is that there were two
 9separate phases of decision making. Both of them stretch
10out over a period of time.
11 MR IRVING:     With particular reference to Hitler, please?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is an incremental decision making process. We have in
13the Spring of 1941, in preparation for Barbarossa, a
14number of his statements about what kind of war this is
15going to be, a war of destruction, a killing of what he
16calls Judao- Bolshevik intelligentsia and this kind of
17thing. This results in proposals coming to him, one of
18which is the creation of the Einsatzgruppen in its
19arrangement with the army or logistical support, the
20Commissar order, and that in the opening weeks of the war
21this led to the selective killing of adult male Jews in
22the regions that the Einsatzgruppen enter.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I halt you there for a moment and say, when he talks
24about the Judao-Bolshevik enemy, which half of that
25adjective weighs strongest in his mind, the Bolshevik or
26Judao?

.   P-32



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think for him it is a package deal, but in terms of what
 2is wrong with Bolshevism is that it is the latest
 3manifestation of the Jewish threat, so the Jewish issue is
 4the prime one and the Bolshevik is the current
 5manifestation of this Jewish threat as he understands it,
 6because he has seen previous manifestations are the French
 7revolution and the liberals. Christianity is the first
 8Jewish threat.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     There have been more recent manifestations, have there
10not, for example in the Spanish Civil War?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, this is getting a bit discursive.
12Can we just pin it down a little bit?
13 MR IRVING:     I am trying to pin it down.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, I know we are
15interrupting an answer and I want you to resume it, but
16can we just anchor it to particular dates? The date that
17is in my mind, and I would be interested to see the
18document if possible, is the 25th May, and I think it was
191940 rather than 41.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The May 25th document is the Himmler guidelines for the
21treatment of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in which he
22wants to reauthorize the ethnic cleansing from the western
23territories, which Frank and Goring had managed to whittle
24down.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that not, in a sense, the start of it all?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, that is still in the ethnic cleansing phase. That is

.   P-33



 1the document in which Himmler is still referring to a
 2total extermination as unGerman and impossible.
 3 MR IRVING:     I was going point that out, yes.
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is the following year, 1941 in the spring, when Hitler
 5begins to talk about this war of destruction in the East,
 6the destruction of the Judao-Bolshevik intelligentsia,
 7that leads to the selective killing of adult male Jews in
 8the opening five or six weeks of Barbarossa.
 9 MR IRVING:     Can I halt you there and say which documents? Are
10you referring to the Kommissar order then?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we look at some of these documents?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are referring to a collection of documents, the
13agreement between the military and the Einsatzgruppen in
14which the Einsatzgruppen will get its instructions from
15the SS but its logistic support from the military.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not possible to argue that these are purely military
17measures at this time?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we look at the document? I really do
19want to look at this document, the Kommissar order.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will excuse me for interrupting.
21You will find three relevant documents cited, or rather
22utterances by Hitler in a military or a semi-military
23context on pages 55 and 56 of Dr Longerich's first
24report. They are all three of them in March 1941 before
25Barbarossa starts. Perhaps Professor Browning might be
26given that, so that he can see it.

.   P-34



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is quite important because, if
 2this is too broad brush, it is perhaps not as helpful as
 3it could be.
 4 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord, because I shall want to draw
 5attention to the military nature of these orders.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do so please, but let us do it by reference
 7to the documents.
 8 MR IRVING:     They are criminal, there is no question, and they
 9are Draconian, but they are military.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand that. So 55 and 56 of the first
11part of Longerich, Mr Rampton?
12 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. I think, if we look at the very first one, in fact
15he makes clear that his campaign has both a military and
16an ideological side. As he says, the coming campaign is
17more than just a struggle of arms. It will also lead to a
18confrontation of two world views. Then he goes on, it is
19does not suffice to defeat the enemy army, Jewish and
20Bolshevik intelligentsia must be eliminated. So this
21campaign from the very beginning is to be conceived as
22more than a conventional war between armies. It has a
23strong ideological element and that ideological element
24relates to race, and particularly to Jews, and that tenor
25I think is very strong in his spring of 1941
26declarations. As I say, when we then look at what was the

.   P-35



 1result of that, if one looks at the Einsatzgruppen
 2reports, the overwhelming bulk of the victims who were
 3shot in the first five or six weeks are ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Described as Jews?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- as male Jews. They kept some communist
 6functionaries. They regret, in a sense, most of the
 7communist functionaries seem to have disappeared, the Jews
 8have not, and that these then are the main target group.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     If this document refers to the Judao-Bolshevik
10intelligentsia, this does not explain why large numbers of
11thousands of ordinary Jews are being taken off trains or
12taken out of the towns and taken out of the country side
13and machine gunned into pits They are not the
14intelligentsia in any way. This document covers the
15intelligentsia.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No one is saying that this is a hands on micromanaged
17order. This is a speech by Hitler in which he is
18declaring a set of expectations, and then there are
19various preparations made and proposals brought forward
20that, in a sense, cast his vision of a war of destruction
21into concrete terms.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I could rephrase that document, if this was going the
23other way and the Russians were saying, we are going to
24invade Washington and we are going to destroy the
25capitalist intelligentsia, and subsequently very large
26atrocities took place and millions of ordinary Americans

.   P-36



 1being machine gunned into pits, you would not link those
 2two facts, would you?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think one could, in the sense that one would say ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just Americans with bank accounts or otherwise fitted?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, one, it sets a mood in which destruction of civilian
 6populations, killing will not be limited to armed
 7soldiers.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would I be right in suggesting that this order
 9effectively created a killing field, and that anybody else
10who fitted the title of Jew who came within that killing
11field was therefore at risk, put it that way?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This certainly creates an atmosphere in which clearly
13there will be lots of killing and it will not be
14restricted to military combat, that there will be killing
15of those that are seen to be an ideological and racial
16enemy, as well as military. I think, when we look at, in
17a sense, the kinds of proposals that are brought forward,
18very revealing are not only the Kommissar order and the
19agreement between the military and the Einsatzgruppen, but
20the economic plans that come forward, such as the May 2nd
21meeting of the State secretaries, in which they say, for
22Germany to be blockade proof, we must take lots of
23material out of the Soviet Union, and we must be very
24clear that, when we do this, umpteen million Russians are
25going to starve to death. So we have an atmosphere of a
26war of destruction in which civilian life is going to be

.   P-37



 1totally cheap.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     He does not say, as a result of our taking economic goods
 3out of the country, millions of people, preferably Jews,
 4are going to die. That is just any Russians?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is that lots of Russians will die, lots of civilians
 6will die. Then, of course, if we cast that, as an
 7historian, to put it into the wider context, you would not
 8disagree with that, I think.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The wider context basically is where people have been
11shot, Jews have been shot in larger percentages than
12others, where people have starved, the Jews have starved
13first. So, if you have a programme of shooting and
14starving, one can begin with the fact that there is going
15to be a large loss of Jewish life, that this would be
16clear to anyone in the context of Nazi Germany in the
17spring of 41. That is not yet. That is not yet an
18explicit order for the killing of Soviet Jewry. It is a
19creation of, we might say, a hunting licence. No one will
20get into trouble killing Jews. One will get credits
21rather than anything against them.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I agree entirely, but the focus is at this stage on this
23document strictly, shall we say, the upper 10,000? It is
24the Judao-Bolshevik intelligentsia and their hierarchy,
25all the way down to the Kommissars, is that right?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The focus is selective killing and indiscriminate

.   P-38



 1starvation.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     The emphasis is on this as a measure of war? This is the
 3kind of war we are going to be fighting?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. The emphasis is on measure of a war that is
 5understood to be both military and ideological and racial.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     A war to the death, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, where do you get
 8indiscriminate starving from?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is a document I believe is not one that I cited. It
10is a protocol of a meeting of the State secretaries on May
112nd 1941. It is a Nuremberg document, in which the
12protocol is that we all agree that, when we take out of
13the Soviet Union what is necessary to make Germany
14blockade proof, we must be perfectly clear that this will
15mean the mass starvation of umpteen million Russians. So
16it is a document that speaks to what was clear to
17everybody involved in the planning process, that this war
18of destruction was going to mean a vast loss of life.
19Given what had happened in Poland, I would argue, everyone
20understood that, in a vast loss of life, Jewish life was
21even cheaper than other life. That is what I would call
22the beginning of this first phase of the decision making
23process. It sets up a genocidal atmosphere, it does not
24yet set up a systematic plan for total liquidation.
25 MR IRVING:     Can I leap forward ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am going to highlight that.

.   P-39



 1I am also going to suggest -- the questions have been fast
 2and furious this morning. That is not a criticism.
 3I suspect you would quite welcome a break and I am sure
 4the transcriber would. It has been actually quite
 5intensive this morning.
 6 MR IRVING:     Can I have one short question? On that point we
 7shall round it off and let us say that this kind genocidal
 8order, is it not almost identical to the Morgantower
 9decision of September 1944, where the Americans said, let
10us do this to the Germans, we do not care how many starve?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would have to look at that document before I could say
12whether it was similar or not. What we do know of course
13is that that document never was implemented.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was signed by both Roosevelt and Churchill, was it
15not?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would have to see such a document.
17 MR IRVING:     Thank you.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think five minutes is enough just to have a
19breathing space.
20 (Short Adjournment).
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can we just identify the Kommissar
22document you refer to? I am not sure I know where that
23is.
24 MR IRVING:     The Kommissar order is in May 1941, I believe,
25about May 7th or May 5th. These March 1941 documents,
26I believe I am right in saying, are the kind of working

.   P-40



 1level papers, are they not? I do not know exactly what is
 2before the witness. I do not have copies of these
 3documents.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I only mention it and perhaps we can locate
 5it in due course.
 6 MR IRVING:     The Kommissar order is important because it was
 7dictated by Hitler to General Jodl, I think, so it very
 8clearly represents Hitler's thoughts. That would be
 9useful if I do obtain a copy and bring it into court
10tomorrow.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we can at some stage, yes.
12 MR IRVING:     May I ask what this particular document was that
13you were quoting from?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The State secretary's meeting.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, the actual one with the references to the
16Judao-Bolshevik intelligentsia?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is footnote 137 from page 55 from the opinion by
18Peter Longerich.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there are two more documents that Mr Rampton wished
20you to consider, I believe?
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. They are just summarized on pages 55 and
2256. There in fact may be four, paragraphs 15.1, 15.2, two
23documents, and 15.3 on page 56, all in March of 1941.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you very much. Professor
25Browning, looking at those further documents, they do not,
26as it were, perhaps add anything, but they maybe confirm

.   P-41



 1what you have already said in relation to the 3rd March
 2document. Is that fair?.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. What I think they confirm is that Hitler does not see
 4this, and does not want his generals and others to see it,
 5as a conventional war, but that it has a very strong
 6ideological dimension to it, and that the enemy to be
 7destroyed is not just the Soviet army and its power to
 8resist, but what he considers to be Judao-Bolshevism,
 9communism, he uses different phrases.
10 MR IRVING:     Would it be right to say that at this time Hitler
11had knowledge of the manner in which the Soviet Union
12fought its wars, both its colonial wars as in Spain, for
13example, and also in the Finnish winter war of 1939 to
141940?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What picture the German intelligence portrayed of the
16Soviet Union in all of this, is an area that others have
17studied, it is not an area that I think I could speak with
18authority.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would he be familiar with the activities of the Russian
20Kommissars within the Red Army hierarchy?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is very likely he would have been given even a more
22lurid description than maybe would have been historically
23accepted but that is just speculation on my part. As
24I say, I cannot think of any documents at the moment that
25I could speak from with authority.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Soviet Commissart system was a political agitator, am

.   P-42



 1I correct, within each Army unit to make sure that they
 2pointed their guns in the right direction, roughly?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It was to establish, in a sense, a dual control of
 4military units, someone who would be there with military
 5expertise and someone with political, what they called
 6reliability.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did these Commissarts have an NKBD rank?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That I do not know.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you estimate for the court approximately what
10percentage of these Commissarts were, in fact, Jewish?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have absolutely no idea.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     No idea. Very well. But if a substantial percentage were
13either Jewish or were perceived by the Nazis to be Jewish,
14would that justify the kind of language that Hitler used
15in these military plannings for the coming Russian
16campaign?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not see that Jews who were part of the NKBD, in a
18sense, often were totally secular Jews separate from the
19Jewish religious communities in these towns, that they had
20given up, in a sense, their Jewish identity. They were
21often all part of the Jewish communities that were going
22to face the onslaught of the genocide. So if you ask me
23is there a justification, my answer would be absolutely
24not.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that, in fact, the Jewish community formed
26the backbone of the Red Army and of the NKBD?

.   P-43



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am certainly not aware of that and I doubt that that is
 2the case.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that 300 heroes of the Soviet
 4Union of General's rank were Jewish?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know the number, but I do not know that it is
 6relevant.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Welt, I am just trying to establish the fact there may
 8have been a military reason for Hitler to have used this
 9kind of language in preparing his Generals for the very
10ugly war that was to come.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that were so, I just wonder, Professor
12Browning, whether the word "intelligenzija" would have
13been used? It is an odd word if one is talking in terms
14of talking military combat, is it not? Is that right or
15wrong?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I think for Hitler he equates Bolshevism and the
17Communists with Jews, and in a sense he is talking about
18-- he sometimes used "leadership", sometimes he uses
19"intelligenzija" and in his mind these are intertwined.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The point I was really putting to you is if one is talking
21about military extermination, if that is a fair way of
22putting it, one would expect to find a reference to not
23"intelligenzija" but "senior military personnel" or
24something of that kind?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I mean, and that I think is there as well, but the
26fact that he adds these others would again reinforce the

.   P-44



 1point I am making that there is a strictly ideological
 2racial dimension as well as a military dimension.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     More than a struggle of arms?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 MR IRVING:     Is it not right, however, also to say that in
 6defeating the Soviet Union, he would not only have to
 7defeat the Red Army, he would also have to defeat the
 8Soviet hierarchy, the bureaucracy; he would have to
 9eradicate that as well in order to implement the German
10colonial rule on those regions?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Have to eradicate what?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     The bureaucracy, the entire Bolshevik hierarchy?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That certainly was his goal, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the Nazis frequently used the phrase "Jewish
15Bolshevik"; it had become a bit of a slogan, had it not?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It was more than a slogan. It was a reflection of their
17mentality.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I think we have taken that question as far as we
19can go, unless your Lordship has further questions on
20those particular documents?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, not at all.
22 MR RAMPTON:     May I just add this? It may save time later on.
23Your Lordship was asking about the guidelines ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR RAMPTON:     --- for Barbarossa, conduct of troops. The date
26is 19th May 1941 and the relevant part is summarized in

.   P-45



 1and translated on page 5 of part 2 of Longerich.
 2 MR IRVING:     Yes. This is not a Commissart order, but it is
 3very much a parallel document.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. That is very helpful.
 5 MR IRVING:     It effectively says that ordinary court procedures
 6will not apply and this kind of thing.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much, Mr Rampton. I was not
 8aware of that at all.
 9MR IRVING (To the witness): Are you familiar with those
10guidelines of May 19th 1941? Can you answer questions
11about it, roughly, were they specifically anti-Jewish in
12nature?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are, I would say, three key orders, one is the
14Commissart order, one is the order concerning military
15jurisdiction and then there is the troop, guidelines for
16the troops, in which "Jews", simply the term "Jews", is
17put in the same line with saboteurs, guerrillas, so that,
18in effect, Jews are created as a class that can be equated
19on the basis of who they are with other targets who are
20defined by what they do. This, of course, is the essence
21of a racial genocide.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the origins of these three documents
23you have mentioned?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you mention them in your own report
25actually, do you not?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure if I mention the three documents.

.   P-46



 1 MR IRVING:     I have not come across them in this witness report.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Paragraph 4.2.1, I thought it was.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I may have mentioned them briefly.
 4 MR IRVING:     I would have remembered them if -- I think they
 5must be in the Longerich report, my Lord.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     It is in Longerich.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is certainly there, but this is another
 8guideline, is it not, at 4.21?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     4.2.1, the Heydrich order of July 2rd, which we discussed
10yesterday, is his summary to the higher SS and police
11leaders of his oral instructions to the Einsatzgruppen
12leaders on June 17th, five days before the invasion. This
13is when he includes among those to be shot will be Jews in
14state and party positions.
15 MR IRVING:     This is the document your Lordship wanted
16translated yesterday.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These are guidelines at that stage?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is the guidelines of early July -- in fact, the
19guidelines of late June, prior to the invasion, because he
20is summarising what was already given to the
21Einsatzgruppen on the eve of the invasion.
22 MR IRVING:     This is Heydrich, of course, who is two or three
23rungs down the hierarchy, is he not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Very close to Himmler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The question, witness, which I asked you just before
26that little discursive, are you familiar with the military

.   P-47



 1planning documents or working papers that led to these
 2three documents we were just talking about, the
 3guidelines, not these ones, but the May 19th guidelines?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have, I think, briefly seen in the Hans Adolf Jacobsen
 5study his account of the emergence of the Commissart order
 6and the Krasvnik(?) article on the emergence of the
 7military jurisdiction order. I have not worked on those
 8in the archives, but I have seen other historians' studies
 9of those two particular cases.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the private diary of General Franz
11Halder, the Chief of the German Army General Staff?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have read parts of that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that in that private diary, which was
14written by him in shorthand (so it was of a very
15confidential nature) it emerges that the German Army were
16the source of the inspiration for those documents, in
17other words, it did not come from Hitler down to the Army;
18it went from the German Army effectively up to Hitler or
19up to the German High Command, they wanted ----
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot say that that was my impression from Halder, but
21I would have to disagree in the sense that we have
22Hitler/Jodl conversation in early March, in which Jodl
23then comes back to the Generals and says, "Hitler wants us
24to do something in terms of the" ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Commissarts?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- "Commissarts" and the negotiations over the shaping of

.   P-48



 1the military jurisdiction order comes I think from a
 2similar instigation from above, that the Army is not to be
 3involved in disciplining the behaviour of troops against
 4the civilian population which previously would have been
 5primed under martial law.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you identify Jodl to the court, please?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Jodl is, if I get it right, the Chief of Staff of the High
 8Command.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he Chief of the Operations Staff at the German High
10Command.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     High Command, not the Army, the Arm Forces High Command,
12the global one.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if Hitler, as Supreme Commander, was having this
14discussion with the Chief of Staff of the German High
15Command, then it must have been a discussion of a military
16nature rather than ideological nature?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not if he wants the Army to take part in and not to be a
18problem concerning this war of destruction. If the
19military is to take part in a wider kind of war, not to
20conceive of this war is a war like they fought against the
21French, and that they are to remove themselves from or to
22give to their own officers a new understanding that
23certain kinds of behaviour, the troops will no longer be
24subject to the jurisdiction of military court martial and
25will not be criminalized. Now, this has to go to the
26Army. But that certainly cannot be said to be ----

.   P-49



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this is the military discipline?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but it is an issue of military discipline that is
 3completely related to the notion of this wider war of
 4destruction. It is not compartmentalized to military
 5operations but to the ideological war.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not likely, in fact, that Hitler would have these
 7discussions with the German High Command on the military
 8side of the problem and he would have similar discussions
 9with Himmler on the ideological side of the problem, and
10these documents only refer, therefore, to the military
11side of the problem.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I disagree totally. That certainly is the postwar plea of
13the German Generals of self-exculpation, but I think the
14documents we see is that he makes very clear to the
15Generals that this a multi-dimensional war, and that he
16does not compartmentalize. He wants the Army to revise
17its multiple court martial code. He wants the Army to
18take part in the finding of the Commissarts and either
19shooting them or turning them over to the SS, that he does
20not compartmentalize this war.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     We so far have not mentioned one very important conference
22that took place around this time after Barbarossa, which
23is the conference of July 16th 1941. You are familiar
24with this?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is a document, can we go -- I am
26quite keen to pick up these points and not deal with

.   P-50



 1them ----
 2 MR IRVING:     It certainly be referenced by Longerich. It is not
 3referenced by this witness in his report, but it is one
 4with which he is quite familiar, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not make it any easier, but if we can
 6identify and locate these documents.
 7 MR IRVING:     I was going to ask one question on this conference
 8really which is -- are you familiar with the conference to
 9which I am referring?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is for my benefit rather than yours or
11Professor Browning's.
12 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the conference to which I am
13referring?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is July 16th conference?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     July 16th. Hitler, Rosenberg, Martin Bormann wrote a
16memorandum on it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Lammers, I believe, was present.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Lammers was present, Himmler was present?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, Himmler is not present. Himmler met with Hitler on
2015th and left for Lublin.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am going to ask you to pause. I
22think I really must have the document, if only a reference
23to it.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a Nuremberg document. I think it is L...
25 MR RAMPTON:     I can help. Page 57. Longerich 1, paragraph
2615.7.

.   P-51



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Irving, but
 2I have to try to digest all this and it is easier.
 3 MR IRVING:     Problem is, my Lord, that both the witness and
 4I have all this in our heads.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but it is quite important that you get
 6it into my head too.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is not an easy task.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to hear you say that.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship wants to see the German?
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the reason I said this is because it has
11taken me 35 years to get it into my head, the whole
12history
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It has only taken me nine months! It is 4.2, if
15your Lordship would like to see another splodgy German
16document.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be that now you have given me the
18reference here, I can follow it up. Is it paragraph 15?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Paragraph 15.7.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then it is in the transcript at least so
21I can go back to it. Yes, Mr Irving, follow that up if
22you want to.
23 MR IRVING:     All that I want to say is, I mean, I have no idea
24where this question and answer is now going to lead. It
25may harm, it may help me. This was a very important, top
26level conference deciding areas of responsibility in the

.   P-52



 1Eastern territories; is that right?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Immediately after that conference, the next, they issued
 3the Fuhrer decrees delineating the responsibilities of
 4Himmler and Rosenberg, the SS and the civil administration
 5for the occupied territories, Soviet territories.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this, effectively, gave Himmler absolutely police
 7control over all these regions, is that correct, the
 8executive control?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It put the SS in a very dominant position.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the rear areas?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Actually, I think it gave him powers -- at least
12Einsatzgruppen already had powers to operate all the way
13up to the front, and this established in a sense that that
14would become permanent as the SS positions are changed
15from mobile units to a permanent police structure on
16occupied territory.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think that, Professor, you once mentioned that the
18Jewish problem was mentioned in this conference, but that
19is not correct, is it?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think he does mention that. He does talk about
21"shooting anyone who looks askance at us and isn't it
22good that Stalin has called for a guerilla war because it
23gives us the pretext", I believe is the word, "to shoot
24anyone that we want?". I do not believe that I have said
25that ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is a very interesting phrase. What was the phrase he

.   P-53



 1used? "It gives us the pretext to shoot"----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "To shoot anyone who so much as looks askance at us" I
 3believe is the ...
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Schief schaut"
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The German is there on page 57 if you want to
 6look at the footnote.
 7 MR IRVING:     Effectively, "Anybody who stands in our way or
 8looks like he might stand in our way"?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, it does not even say "stand in our way", "looks
10askance at us", I believe, is a much wider shooting
11licence than "stands in our way".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What does "nur schief schaut" mean?
13 MR IRVING:     "Looks askance", literally.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Gives us a twisted look" or "looks askance at us".
15 MR IRVING:     Anybody whose face does not fit would be another
16way of saying it? It is a pretty broad kind of
17directive.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is an open shooting licence.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but there is no reference to the Jewish problem at
20all?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not a specific reference, no.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Just that Himmler has now given, effectively, carte
23blanche?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will deal with that, I think, in more detail, my Lord,
26when we come to Longerich?

.   P-54



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You were still asking me my view of the decision-making
 2process. Do you wish me to continue?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     If you have had after thoughts, yes. My view (and
 5I would wish you to correct it) is that the German Army
 6provided the impetus for these orders, and that this is
 7evidenced in the papers of the German High Command where
 8the position papers are, effectively, written by German
 9Army officers and also from the diary of General Franz
10Halder. In other words, that the initiative did not come
11from Hitler?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would disagree. I would say that the open invitation
13for these proposals comes from Hitler and, in terms of
14guidelines and policies, it is the response of the SS and
15the military and the economic planners to turn into
16reality this vague vision of a war of destruction in an
17ideological crusade against the Soviet Union.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you say you disagree, is this just a gut feeling or
19do you have any specific document you want to reference?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think we have both the Jodl/Hitler meeting and Jodl's
21response, and we have the meeting of March 30th with the
22Generals in which he again makes clear to them his desire
23to have a war of destruction, a war that is not fought by
24the ground rules of a conventional war.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The latter meeting is, of course, recorded in detail in
26the diary of General Halder, is it not?

.   P-55



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again it would help me, rather than just
 3having this ----
 4 MR IRVING:     Interesting discussion.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- debate between the two of you if ----
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would be 15.3, page 56, of Longerich, again where he
 7emphasises the dual nature of the war, the struggle of two
 8world views against one another.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Jodl/Hitler meeting, can you pinpoint
10that for me?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     March 3rd.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, in terms of where I find a
13reference.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     15.1.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Page 55, my Lord.
16 MR IRVING:     Would it be correct to describe these features as
17pep talks by Hitler to his Generals to fire them up for
18the coming campaign?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say they are more than pep talks. I would
20say they are a setting of expectations and, as you know, I
21have tried to develop this model of Hitler eliciting,
22setting a level of what he expects and that that brings
23responses and proposals that are brought to him. I think
24this is a very good example of that dialectic.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But he does not say, "We are going to invade the
26Soviet Union so that we can destroy Jews"?

.   P-56



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Nothing as crude as that?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     What he is saying is, "We are confronted by a Judaio
 5Bolshevik enemy, and that we will destroy the Judaio
 6Bolshevik intelligenzija and the leadership class and
 7whatever, and that is what he is effectively in all these
 8documents he is saying, he is just mapping out who the
 9enemy is going to be?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is not yet an explicit instruction to systematically
11kill all the Jewish population on Soviet territory.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even in this important meeting of July 16th 1941, there is
13still no such instruction at any rate recorded in the
14memorandum by Martin Bormann?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, in this case we have no smoking pistol document -- I
16have declared that often -- that we are working from
17inference, and the inference we draw is very similar to
18what you did about the November 30th meeting. Himmler and
19Hitler meet, Himmler gives an order. As you put it, it
20would be perverse not to assume a connection between them.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Except that we now unfortunately ----
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Find out the meeting came after rather than before.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     The meeting came after the telephone call, yes.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In this case the meeting, I say, comes before. We know
25that Himmler meets with Hitler and then leaves for Lublin
26on 15th, that the others meet with Hitler on 16th, and

.   P-57



 1what follows thereafter is very quickly that Himmler
 2vastly increases the number of people behind the Front in
 3terms of putting the police battalions under the command
 4of the higher SS and police leaders, of throwing in two of
 5his brigades of his own and authorizing the raising of the
 6auxiliaries and that within a very short period after that
 7we begin to be able to document the systematic killing.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And then it is an inference, but I think it is one that
10circumstantial evidence supports, that there is a
11connection in that period of July 16th to ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not the likely inference that Himmler had received from
13Hitler the carte blanche that he had sought and Himmler
14strutted into occupied Russia and told his often teenage
15thugs who were wearing SS uniform, "I have carte blanche.
16Go ahead and deal with these people and pacify the rear
17areas"?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In fact, that is not what we know of how Himmler does it.
19Himmler says, "This terrible burden has been laid on my
20shoulders by the Fuhrer. This is the hardest thing I have
21ever been given to do." He does not strut; he shares
22crocodile tears ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     1944 he says that, does he not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but in '43 too. We are talking about -- what we know
25about Himmler and how he speaks to others about this task,
26he does strut in and say, "Boy, aren't I lucky? I can now

.   P-58



 1kill them". He comes and says: "The Fuhrer has laid this
 2burden on my shoulders. This is a terrible thing we have
 3to do, but we must fight this battle now so other
 4generations do not".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says this just once, am I right?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have the Posen speech where I think he says it on ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     October 1943.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- both occasions. But this is, I think, an accurate
 9reflection of how Himmler speaks to others about this. So
10your portrayal that Himmler is the eager go-getter is not
11supported by how he talks when we can document it to the
12other SS leaders about his role and responsibility.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The documents are very thin, though, are they not? We do
14not have a whole sheaf of documents to draw these
15inferences from; there are a lot of gaps?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are gaps, but this is a very strong document. Here
17he is talking to all of the SS leaders and this is the
18stance that he takes to them.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, Mr Irving, just so that you know --
20you may know this from the transcript -- draws the
21distinction between after October 1943 and before.
22I think he accepts that Hitler knew and, indeed,
23authorized, I think.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But this is a different question, my Lord. The question
25here is how did Himmler act towards his SS Generals?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. As I understand the way you put it,

.   P-59



 1what he was saying in October 1943 and later is consistent
 2with the interpretation you put on the slightly thin
 3documentation of 41/42. Is that a fair summary?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It may be relevant to point out ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I have an answer first? Is that right?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I am saying that in so far as we want to know how
 7Himmler talked to others about this, it was not that
 8"Hitler has given me carte blanche", it is that "Hitler
 9has laid a duty on me, it is a hard duty". It is not one
10that he portrayed himself as eager to do, but one that he
11felt obligated to do. That was an answer to the scenario
12that Mr Irving gave of an eager Himmler running with the
13ball with very little authorization from Hitler.
14 MR IRVING:     Is it not also right to say that on one occasion
15Himmler specifically says to I think Berger, "The Fuhrer
16has ordered these territories to be made free of Jews.
17This serious grave order that Fuhrer has placed on my
18shoulders nobody can take off me"?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That comes end of July of 1942.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     1942, which is closer to the time we are talking about?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that what you are going raise?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, because the date came out wrong first of all.
23It is 28th July 1942.
24 MR IRVING:     Yes, and that when Himmler is, therefore, talking
25about the order, he is talking about the blanket order to
26get the Jews out of here, and the way that Himmler then

.   P-60



 1interpreted that is where you and I begin to differ.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We differ a great deal on how one interprets that, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, Professor, I remind you that yesterday I showed you
 4one coloured page photocopy of an intercept, did I not,
 5and I suggested to you that we have hundreds of thousands
 6of such intercepts in the British archives now, and
 7I suggested that neither my expert, Dr John Fox or Richard
 8Brightman or any of the experts who have waded through
 9these hundreds of thousands of intercepts of top level and
10medium level and low level messages, is this correct, has
11found even one inference, one document, which supports the
12inference that Hitler was behind this?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not read through them, but no one has said that
14these intercepts, the place that we have found such a
15thing, and we have not found the smoking pistol document.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the more documents that do come our way, whether from
17Minsk or Riga or Moscow or from Bletchley Park or
18wherever, and yet we still fail to find even a luke warm
19gun, let alone a smoking gun, indicates that possibly
20I may be right and my opponents may be incorrect, or, at
21any rate, I am justified in suspecting, would you agree?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, because I do not think one would ever expect to find
23such a thing in a radio intercept. These are, from what I
24have seen of them, very specific things. They are not
25general points at which, for instance, Hitler has ordered
26Barbarossa or decisions of that level.

.   P-61



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer -- I am now coming on to Adolf Eichmann, unless,
 2my Lord, you wish to ask further questions?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. Take your own course.
 4 MR IRVING:     I now come on to Adolf Eichmann. What reliance can
 5be placed on his writings, do you think?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have used him as a very important source because we
 7have ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, understandably.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- a collection of documents from him that stretch over a
10period of time and were given under different conditions
11before his arrest in Argentina under arrest by the
12Israelis, the private notes that are part of his
13attorney's, Nachlass that is in Koblenz, that subject to
14the confidentiality that were only between him and his
15attorney and were not in the possession of the Israelis.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a lot of paper then?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a lot of -- and now, apparently, we have learned
18there is about 1300 or more pages of notes that we have
19never seen yet.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you were in Koblenz, did you have the opportunity to
21look at the 600 pages that I gave to the German government
22which I found in Argentina?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I have not seen those. I do not know what the
24overlap is between those and ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are similar to Sasson material. Would you
26characterize for the court what kind of witness Adolf

.   P-62



 1Eichmann was in all these stages? What kind of person --
 2was he robust, was he servile, just characterize him.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that there are elements of both, that he is
 4very robust and contentious in protesting against certain
 5aspects of what he is being accused. He has no problem
 6saying Hoess is lying about him, that he did not be
 7involved there; that he engages in a vigorous denial of
 8certain parts of the documentation the Israeli
 9interrogators at court show him.
10     On the other hand, he comes and says things that
11there is no documentation for, admits to things that they
12would never have known otherwise, except that they are
13repeated consistently in all of his stories, and it is a
14story he sticks to from beginning to end for which we
15would not know other than that he consistently told that
16story.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. There are plausible elements and there are
18implausible elements, is that right?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In any eyewitness testimony, there will be elements that
20are more plausible than others. I think a fair amount of
21the Eichmann testimony is plausible. Again, it would
22depend on when he is reacting to particular documents they
23present, sometimes he takes a very defensive position, and
24in other areas he is very self-incriminating and very
25forthcoming.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hannah Arred in her book "The Banality of Evil" I think

.   P-63



 1refers to him as being almost complacent and compliant and
 2anxious to please?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not agree with her characterization there.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not agree with that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He is quite vigorous in defending himself in many
 6areas.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I had the dubious fortune some time ago of coming into
 8possession of his personal copy of Rudolf Hoess' memoirs.
 9I will pass to you, if I may?
10 MR RAMPTON:     May I enquire whether this is, I do not know, this
11is an entirely open enquiry, whether this is part of
12Mr Irving's discovery?
13 MR IRVING:     It was in my box called "Judenfrage" but if you
14wish ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the original you are handing up, is
16it?
17 MR IRVING:     This is a photocopy of it which I have retained, my
18Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A photocopy of the version you discovered or
20were given?
21 MR IRVING:     That is correct, my Lord. It is only interesting
22in one very minor respect.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is what I thought.
24 MR IRVING:     Pages 13 and 14 of your Lordship's little bundle
25which I gave your Lordship this morning. This is, of
26course, the published edition of Hoess' memoirs which you

.   P-64



 1are probably familiar with?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The handwriting on that has been identified as the
 4handwriting of Adolf Eichmann, as is evident also from the
 5internal evidence of the comments that he makes. The
 6original is in the possession of a friend of mine in
 7Germany. He bought it in a store.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     OK. I am, of course, not an handwriting expert.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, you are happy with this, are you?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And so I cannot confirm or deny.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have never seen it before. I do not have a
12translation.
13 MR IRVING:     I just wish to refer to page 14.
14 MR RAMPTON:     But what is puzzling me about this is if this is a
15selective use of the document, it may be that there are a
16considerable number of other comments by Eichmann of which
17Mr Irving is aware on these memoirs which we ought to see
18because they are relevant.
19 MR IRVING:     I would be very happy to make available a copy to
20the Defence and I will leave this copy with them overnight
21and they can make a copy if they wish.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is fair. I think Mr Rampton is happy
23you should make the point that you make on these two
24pages.
25 MR IRVING:     I just wish to put this to the witness. I
26just draw your attention, witness, to page handwritten 14

.   P-65



 1which is page 122 of the book.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     122.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give us the context, Mr Irving?
 4 MR IRVING:     The killing of the Russian prisoners in 1941
 5I think he is talking about. This is by Rudolf Hoess.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And he had been ordered to carry it out, is
 7that right? He, Hoess, had ----
 8 MR IRVING:     "It was ordered that I had to carry it out", writes
 9Hoess, "but I have to say openly that this gassing had a
10calming effect on me, as in the near future we had to
11begin with the mass destruction of the Jews too, and
12neither Eichmann nor I was clear about how we were to deal
13with these masses", is that roughly the sense of that
14final sentence on page ----
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Roughly, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And underneath it in his appalling handwriting Adolf
17Eichmann has written -- can you read the words: "Ich war
18gar nichts zustandig"?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does that mean?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was not at all competent, this was not at all my
22jurisdiction.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     And in the margin next to the footnote he was written just
24one word "falsch"?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, Eichmann, who ought to have known, if

.   P-66



 1I can use one of the phrases Mr Rampton likes, disputes
 2the version given by Rudolf Hoess. In private, he does
 3not know that David Irving is going to come into
 4possession of that years later, so can we assume therefore
 5that there is some conflict in the evidence that Hoess
 6writes?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is the major case where Eichmann contests
 8vigorously the evidence the Israelis bring to him and
 9present this before him. For instance, in the handwritten
10notes to his attorney, he says: "Hoess is the arch liar.
11I have nothing to do with Hoess, with his death camp or
12his gas chambers". That is in Eichmann's handwriting and
13Serwateus' notes. He disputes having anything to do with
14Hoess's gas chambers. He does not deny the existence of
15gas chambers but confirms Auschwitz, but he says that was
16not my thing.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The falsehood is his own involvement,
18Eichmann's own involvement.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. He is saying that Hoess is laying responsibility on
20him for playing a part in the selection of the gas chamber
21site, and the selection of the type of gas at Auschwitz,
22and in this regard I think Eichmann is correct and that
23Hoess is utterly wrong.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the means, not the end, in other
25words.
26 MR IRVING:     You use the interesting phrase, of course, "Hoess's

.   P-67



 1gas chambers" and that Eichmann ----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is Eichmann's phrase; what I quoted to you from
 3memory is what Eichmann wrote to Serwateus in the
 4Serwateus papers.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Serwateus was his lawyer in Israel?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any hint there, therefore, that people like Hoess
 8and the other concentration camp commandants were loose
 9canons, and that they were doing things their own way
10without -- ?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think that there is a hint of that at all. The
12hint is that Hoess is trying to shift blame elsewhere and
13that Hoess has a very bad memory.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or a conveniently bad memory perhaps?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, Hoess has many self-incriminating things. Where
16Hoess's testimony is particularly unreliable is anything
17related to dating.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dating and numbers?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Numbers as well, and to, in this issue certainly,
20Eichmann's role in all of this.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not correct that Hoess, in fact, fluctuates between
222.8 million and 1 million, and then back to 2.7 million,
23as late as March 1947? Before his execution, he is back
24to 2.7 million again killed in Auschwitz.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not remember the exact figures but I believe he does
26give fluctuating figures.

.   P-68



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can any kind of credence be attached to figures like that
 2when they vary by such enormous amounts?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This would be a case where you would look at the testimony
 4and say that, when Hoess is talking about dates and
 5figures, one would not use it as reliable. When he is
 6talking about experiences that he recalls with great
 7vividness, one would say this is more likely to be
 8something that one at least must look at, can we
 9corroborate this? It would not mean that everything Hoess
10says is wrong, but it would mean that, in the areas of
11dating and where he is trying to share responsibilities
12with others, one must use it with great caution.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not know this, Professor Browning. We
14looked at the 2.8 million figure in some detail and it is
15quite clear that that is actually not his own account but
16it is what he has been told by others.
17 MR IRVING:     It did actually creep up again, the 2.8 just before
18he was hanged. He appeared to be readily flexible and
19this is what I am getting at; I suppose "suggestible" is
20what I am aiming at, the word that these witnesses -- you
21yourself have said that you had to pick and choose what
22they wrote, effectively?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You had to make judgments about it. "Pick and choose"
24sounds as if one was picking and choosing for my
25convenience rather than my ability to explain in terms of
26----

.   P-69



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come to that in a minute, Professor Browning, when
 2we come to Gerstein.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We will get there but, in terms of ability to bring
 4reasons as to why you think parts of it are more reliable
 5than others.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is there any reason why, when somebody is in
 7captivity on trial for one's life, one might write things,
 8either deliberately or inadvertently, that were not true,
 9do you think?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is a possibility but, again, one looks at it and
11judges. If one is already sentenced to be hanged and
12there is, in a sense, nothing further they can threaten
13you with, then wonders one why would one go through the
14business of writing out a long handwritten document.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you not read large numbers of interrogations and
16pretrial interrogations yourself, where you have marvelled
17at some of the statements that these people have made?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can you give me a context?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     For example, self-incriminating statements which, as you
20said in the case of Eichmann, nobody knew what he was
21admitting there. Have you never wondered why people would
22make these statements?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think in cases I have used he is telling the truth.
24I think he is relating----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Obviously. Otherwise you would not have used them. But
26does it not occur to you that sometimes people make

.   P-70



 1astonishing statements, self-incriminatory statements?
 2The most extraordinary examples are, for example, in the
 3Soviet show trials. It is a psychological problem. I am
 4just trying to assail the credibility of eyewitness
 5evidence basically. That is what I am getting at.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Certainly in Soviet trials where part of the protocol, in
 7a sense, is to have a signed statement at the end.
 8I would not put great weight on something collected in
 91937 and 38 in which a witness said, "Oh yes, I was part
10of the Trotskyite conspiracy", or whatever.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or American agent. Do not the same kind of duresses
12prevail when you are in a cell in a bleak prison in
13Nuremberg and the Americans come to you and say, well, we
14can guarantee you will not get the death sentence if you
15sign this affidavit which we have taken from your
16testimony?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would not accept that Americans came and said, "Sign
18this or we are going to kill you".
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the case of Dr Friedrich Gauss, who
20was Ribbentrop's legal adviser?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I am not.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with Dr Robert Kempton, who said, "If you
23do not sign this we are going to turn you over to the
24Russians"?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I am not familiar with that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Obviously I cannot develop that particular line. If you

.   P-71



 1are not familiar with that case I cannot develop it. In
 2later trials in Germany we have another problem, do we
 3not, and this is the passage of years? 20 or 30 years
 4pass. You have referenced in your own very interesting
 5expert report a number of German war crimes trials
 6conducted quite properly by the German government in the
 71960s and even in the 1970s?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     How reliable is that kind of evidence being given by
10Germans who have been taken out of their little bedsits
11somewhere in Ingoldstadt or somewhere and they find
12themselves on trial, they are going to be locked away for
1320 years, and they are being asked to remember something
14that happened 30 years before?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that much of it is very reliable. They did not
16have to give testimony. They had counsel, they did not
17have to, under German law, give self-incriminating
18testimony. They could remained silent.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     how many did remain silent?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Virtually none. A few. The document that we see in the
21Chelmno gas vans, the villager who signs that refused to
22talk and nothing happened to him. He is one who did not
23get brought to trial.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the man who signed the famous memorandum about the
2597,000 killed, is this the document you are referring to?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the document and this is the case where someone

.   P-72



 1refusing to talk ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Nothing happened to him?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They said, we have not enough evidence to contest that he
 4contributed in a causal way to the killing, even if he
 5knew of it, and therefore we have no grounds. In fact,
 6there was a case where the one who did not talk did much
 7better than his colleagues in the motor pool who did talk,
 8incriminated themselves and were tried.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I do not want to interrupt you
10unduly. I am not finding this terribly helpful because we
11all know that eyewitness evidence has to be looked at very
12carefully. Everyone agrees on that.
13 MR IRVING:     If you think I have laboured the point too strongly
14then I shall not bring it up again.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not really that, but illusive
16references which are not really followed up do not help me
17very much, besides which it appears to me we are straying
18perhaps a little bit from what I think is the intended
19structure of your cross-examination, which really goes to
20the case for saying that Hitler knew about the
21extermination. I am not keeping you to any tramlines.
22 MR IRVING:     I was trying to undermine the quality of his
23sources by referring to the fact that a very large number
24of the sources which he refers to in his report in the
25footnotes appear to be ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in relation to Hitler's knowledge. I do

.   P-73



 1not think eyewitnesses come into that at all, do they?
 2 MR IRVING:     It is certainly in connection with the numbers and
 3I was just about to get on to the 97,000 figure again,
 4when your Lordship intervened.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Develop that, but can you help me by
 6giving me a little bit more information about which figure
 7you are talking about, given by whom, in what context?
 8 MR IRVING:     This is one of two letters. One is the Greiser
 9letter of May 1st 1942, Greiser to Himmler. Are you
10familiar with that document?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Page 38 of Professor Browning's report, my Lord.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
14 MR IRVING:     In that letter Greiser says that we shall have
15within, I believe, two to three months killed 100,000
16effectively. That is what he is saying, is he not?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has he already started by then?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. Chelmno has opened in early December 1941.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he actually refer to Chelmno in that document?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He does not refer to Chelmno in that document.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do not know whether he is actually referring to the
23document or actually to Chelmno, and whether even one of
24those 100,000 has died at that time or not.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He does not say explicitly but Chelmno is the operating
26death camp in the region to which he is referring, the

.   P-74



 1Warthegau.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a reasonable inference?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not assume too much. You have been, as
 5you say, for 34 years on this topic.
 6 MR IRVING:     Not on the Holocaust.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I appreciate that, but you know what I mean.
 8I have had rather less long. So can you just help me who
 9Greiser was?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Greiser is the head of----
11 MR IRVING:     The Gauleiter of the Warthegau.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Gauleiter of the Warthegau. Lodz and Chelmno are located
13in the Warthegau.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
15 MR IRVING:     The second document is the one -- you must help me
16on this -- with the 97,000 figure in it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe it is June 6th 1942.
18 MR RAMPTON:     June 5th?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     June 5th.
20 MR IRVING:     1942, correct.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps in this case we should maybe get the
22document.
23 MR IRVING:     I agree. There are two rather odd features about
24the document I want to draw your Lordship's attention to.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is in the second volume.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hope it is in J or L.

.   P-75



 1 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is in the main bundle now.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Greiser's letter is there too, then
 3I would quite like a reference to that at the same time.
 4 MR IRVING:     Do you have the actual document in front of you?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just a moment. Let us catch up..
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     One starts at page 92 of the new Browning file
 8which is Greiser's letter.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You tell me about a new Browning file. I
10feel I am the last to know about it.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 7, I am sorry.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, meanwhile I can tell you what I am aiming
13at here.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us pause a little, Mr Irving. You have
15to be patient with us.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Then the motor pool letter, the 97,000, is on the
17following page, I hope, 93 to 97.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I may have misunderstood. Are we in
19tab 7 of L1.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 7 of L1.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 97.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Starting at page 92, that is Greiser to Himmler of
231st May in a printed form. We have not got a copy of the
24original.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. And the other one, Mr Rampton?
26 MR RAMPTON:     Then the very next page, 93, is the 97,000 letter

.   P-76



 1of 5th June 1942.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am just going to wave one little flag about the
 4document's oddities. This is the document containing the
 597,000 figure, correct?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see at the top it says "Einzigste Ausfertigung" in
 8German?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever seen that designation on a document anywhere
11else in your entire archival experience?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not recall seeing it.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "Einzigste Ausfertigung" which means the "onlyest"
14copy.
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the motor pool sergeants were not terribly literate.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I take that point. Can you see that the document begins
17with the sentence: Beispielsweise, for example? The very
18first sentence in the document.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, it says, "seit December", yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I have not got that. Where are
21you?
22 MR IRVING:     In the very first sentence of the document, my
23Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Seit December".
25 MR IRVING:     The one with 97,000 figure in it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Since December.

.   P-77



 1 MR IRVING:     No. The word I am looking at is "Beispielsweise".
 2It is a letter beginning with the phrase, for example,
 3"Beispielsweise", it is just lifted out of the middle of
 4nowhere. Have you ever received a letter from somebody
 5beginning with the word "Beispielsweise",
 6Professor Browning?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or "for example"?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But I think to have to realize Mr Schuss was not a college
10graduate, that these are people who are working in the
11motor pool in Berlin, and that the tone, as I see it, is
12someone who is trying to emulate what he thinks is proper
13bureaucratic German and he in fact is someone is not a
14bureaucrat, he is a mechanic.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was not stupid because, as you say, he was the only one
16who was not punished in this entire horrible affair.
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You have to remember that "Beispielweise" comes after the
18subject, which is they are talking about technical
19changes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I presume that this is a result of a conversation people
22have had, there has been a meeting.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And someone has said, write it up.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     OK.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We get a very ----

.   P-78



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you do a rough calculation of how many people were
 2being killed per van per day?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause, Mr Irving. If I may say so, you
 4must just let me absorb the points you are making.
 5 MR IRVING:     I am just planting suspicion.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are casting doubt on this, partly because
 7it has "Einsigste Ausfertigung" on the top and
 8I understand that, but I am not sure I am really following
 9your point on "Beispielsweise".
10 MR IRVING:     It is an unusual turn of phrase to start a letter
11with, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why is it unusual? He is picking three
13trucks, is he not, to give an example of the sort of
14numbers that are being processed if that is the right
15word, in the special trucks.
16 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord, but you would normally expect
17that in the second paragraph of a letter. In the first
18paragraph he says, well, we are going to have troubles
19doing this, that and the other, troubles with the trucks,
20the exhaust hoses are getting corroded and all the rest of
21it, for example, but in fact his letter begins with the
22word "for example". This is the oddity about it. But I
23can do no more than ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You rely on that as an indication that this
25is not an authentic document?
26 MR IRVING:     I am trying to plant a seed of suspicion in your

.   P-79



 1Lordship's mind, that is all.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are not succeeding at the moment because
 3I would have thought, if you are trying to create a
 4document that is going to deceive anybody, you would not
 5do what you say is something obviously inappropriate,
 6which is to refer to an example in the first paragraph.
 7 MR IRVING:     It would be improper for me to do anything else.
 8Mr Rampton will object if I do anything else because
 9I have already stated that I fully accept that this
10document refers to the homicide of large numbers of human
11beings in gas vans.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are we going?
13 MR IRVING:     We are going to look at the number, my Lord, the
1497,000.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you accept this is an authentic document?
16 MR IRVING:     For the purposes of this morning, yes.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I do have to know sooner or later, and so does
18your Lordship, whether Mr Irving accepts for the purposes
19of this trial that this is an authentic document. If it
20is a forgery, we need to know why he says it is a forgery.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not say it is a forgery?
22 MR IRVING:     No.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then we can forget about Beispielsweise, can
24we not?
25 MR IRVING:     But it also helps to address the court's attention
26to the fact whether this witness had competently

.   P-80



 1questioned the integrity of the documents we are
 2confronted with.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a valid criticism of him if you do
 4not question it.
 5 MR IRVING:     I personally would question it but not for the
 6purposes of this morning's hearing. Shall we just proceed
 7to the number?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us do the numbers. 97,000 -- what is
 9wrong with that?
10 MR IRVING:     I am sorry about that detour. 97,000 people killed
11in three vans in what space of time?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     From December to June, this would be six months, by my
13calculation.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Six months?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are these regular German army diesel trucks, five ton
17trucks or something?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They refer to two and then a third, and I think they had
19-- we do not know the capacity of two of them because
20they were not either the Opal or the Saurer trucks. They
21were apparently converted Renault. Then they brought in a
22Saurer truck, which is the biggest model and could carry
23I think 50 to 80 people. The Opal was 30 to 50. We do
24not know the capacity of the actual two trucks that
25were----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     From the descriptions we have, it did not actually do it

.   P-81



 1on the spot. They were loaded aboard, the victims, and
 2they were driven off into the country side for a couple of
 3hours and then they were gassed on the way?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. As best we can tell they loaded them, gassed them
 5there, or for a while ran the engines, and then drove them
 6off.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     So it was not a long way from Chelmno to the forest.
 9I think it is two kilometres or 3 kilometres.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have read 20 kilometres.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is not correct at all. I have driven it myself. It
12is not far, and one would have to do a considerable amount
13of the time needed to kill the people, one would have to
14remain in the courtyard unless you wanted to run the
15engines for a prolonged period after you arrived in the
16forest camp.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever calculated the quantities of gasoline or
18petrol that would be needed for these kind of trips?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not knowing the fuel consumption of the various truck
20models, no, I have not made a calculation.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it strike you as being a very economical way of
22killing people?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think this camp was probably very inexpensive to run in
24comparison to what they were taking in, property and
25getting in labour from the Jews in Lodz. My guess is that
26this was an infinitesimally small part of their budget.

.   P-82



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     If they had just the three trucks and this length of
 2time to do it in, and they had the problem of persuading
 3the people to get into the truck, and loading them up,
 4driving off, waiting for the gas to have its effect, then
 5unloading them at the other end and cleaning up the mess
 6so that the next cargo did not have any suspicions, there
 7must have been quite a substantial turn around time?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The trucks made return trips each day. In fact, we know
 9with just one truck at the Semlin camp, it took about two
10months, with just one trip a day and occasionally two, to
11gas the 7,000 people there. So, with three trucks
12operating on a shorter run, they did not have to drive all
13the way through Belgrade to the far side, which is what
14happened in Semlin. I did the calculations for Semlin.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have done the calculations?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. I have not done them for this.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the 97,000 not strike you as being wrong by a factor
18of two or three?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Absolutely not. It does not strike me as wrong at all.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It depends strictly on what the capacity of the trucks
21would have been, what the turn around time was, whether
22they were really efficient, whether they worked 24 hours a
23day and whether the trucks had any down time.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     From the witness reports the trucks made numerous trips
25each day, the drivers traded off so that they in fact
26operated continually during the day.

.   P-83



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Around the clock 24 hours a day?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not 24 hours, through the day.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is pretty distasteful, but may I ask this
 5question? How many people were there in a gas van when
 6they were being gassed? How many people could be
 7accommodated?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not know for Chelmno because it is a different
 9truck. There is a Saurer truck, one Saurer truck was at
10Chelmno. That is the one that exploded. Then they had
11two converted Renault French military trucks that they
12turned into gas vans, so we do not have a knowledge
13there. The small truck that they produced, the Opal
14Blitz, was the smallest. The Saurer could carry 50 to 80
15people, the Opal Blitz was 30 to 50. So, even if the
16Renault was smaller than the Opal, which probably as a
17military truck it was larger, would be in between the two.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is the order of magnitude?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Were there more than three of these ominous trucks
21of death going around the Eastern Front do you think? Did
22they go from location to location?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Some of them were distributed to each of the
24Einsatzgruppen so there were some operating in Riga, some
25in Minsk and south, so that they were a few. We know, for
26instance, that Minsk, I do not have the document, but

.   P-84



 1I think they had 3 or 4 trucks and they asked for more.
 2So we know that they had small fleets of these trucks with
 3different Einsatzgruppen.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this the principal means of killing at that time?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. It was a very minor part of the Einsatzgruppen. The
 6vast bulk of the killing in the East was by shooting. The
 7gas vans attached to the Einsatzgruppen were a very minor
 8part of their killing operations.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you draw any conclusions from the fact that they used
10different methods of killing people, a lack of system?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think we can find a kind of chronological sequence.
12They start with shooting. The next thing implemented is
13the gas vans starting at Chelmno and Semlin. Then they
14move to the fairly primitive gas chambers, which is the
15gas chambers that Operation Reinhardt and the converted
16peasant bunkers at Auschwitz. Then they move to the
17design construction. Once they have experience one can go
18back and say, how would you do this if you were creating
19something modern? So I do not find anything haphazard and
20confusing. I find it quite a logical sequence in which
21they add new methods of killing at the same time as the
22old methods continue.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you not agree that the lack of preparedness at the
24time Barbarossa began on June 22nd 1941 is in itself an
25indication that they did not go into Russia with the
26intention of carrying out systematic liquidations on a

.   P-85



 1large scale?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That has been my argument. We get evidence of
 3preparations at the death camps coming in the fall of 41,
 4which is when I have argued, partly because of that, that
 5one then concludes that they have now reached the point
 6where they want a systematic killing of the Jews of
 7Europe.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord, I wanted to take this witness briefly on to
 9the table talk document which your Lordship may remember,
10October 25th 1941.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure I will when you tell me what it
12is. Is that the Himmler Hitler meeting?
13 MR IRVING:     It is the ugly rumours one, good thing that the
14rumour goes ahead of us.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us dig it out.
16 MR IRVING:     I put in my clip, my Lord, of documents I gave to
17you.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it is somewhere else perhaps we will go to
19where it is already.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is in part 1 of Longerich.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was wondering about the actual document.
22 MR IRVING:     We will find it most neatly on page 25 of the clip
23I gave you, my Lord, in the actual original Martin Bormann
24version.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The problem is that I do not have the document.
26 MR IRVING:     It is the clip that I gave you this morning,

.   P-86



 1Professor.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 25.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Page 59 of Longerich 1, paragraph 16.4. It is
 4translated and the relevant part of the German is given at
 5the footnote 149.
 6 MR IRVING:     Professor, do you have the document in front of
 7you?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment, Mr Irving.
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 25.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Professor, in your absence, before you arrived in
13the United Kingdom, I was taking stick for having wrongly
14translated two or three words in the second paragraph of
15that document.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The translation which I relied upon was the Weidenfeld
18edition of Hitler's table talk.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will read out most of the paragraph. They are talking
21about the Jews. They are going to have to disappear from
22Europe. The Weidenfeld translation continues: "That race
23of criminals has on its conscience the 2 million dead of
24the First World War -- this is Adolf Hitler allegedly
25speaking -- and now already hundreds of thousands more.
26Let nobody tell me that all the same we cannot park them

.   P-87



 1in the marshy parts of Russia. Who is worrying about our
 2troops? It is not a bad idea by the way that public
 3rumour attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews."
 4     I will stop there. That is the translation of
 5the phrase "Es ist gut, wenn uns der Schrecken
 6vorangeht".
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I would ask you how would you translate the phrase, "it is
 9good if wenn uns der Schrecken vorangeht"?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is good if the terror precedes us that we are
11exterminating the Jews.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     The terror?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Schrecken, the fear of the terror. I certainly would
14not have translated it as "rumours".
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You would not translate it as "public rumours"? So they
16have it wrong and I was wrong, criminally wrong,
17perversely wrong to have adopted the Weidenfeld----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is for me, not for the witness.
19 MR IRVING:     Professor, are you familiar with a historian by the
20name of Philip Burrin?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Philip Burrin, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is he a notable historian? He is not an extremist
23in some way, is he? Is he a dependable historian? His
24works are published?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is an historian of accepted reputation.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with a book that this historian wrote

.   P-88



 1called "Hitler and the Jews, the genesis of the
 2Holocaust".
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Please turn to page 17 of your bundle of documents that
 5I gave you and look at page 145? Would you say that in
 6the second half of that paragraph this historian has done
 7his own translation of the original German? Perhaps
 8I ought to draw your attention, first of all, to the end
 9note 47, which you will find on page 18 of my bundle.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you know he did his own translation?
11 MR IRVING:     That is what I am just referring to.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does that prove that?.
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He wrote the book in French and someone else translated
14it. Burrin's original book is in French. He is a French
15speaking Swiss historian.
16 MR IRVING:     He has not used the Weidenfeld translation from
17what you can see.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is obvious.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He has not listed his monologe.
20 MR IRVING:     Is that the title of the German edition of the
21book, Hitler's table talk, Monologe im Fuhrer...
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but what it looks to me is that his translator got
23lazy and, instead of translating Monologe, in fact grabbed
24the Weidenfeld and borrowed an English translation from an
25earlier edition and goofed it entirely. Burrin has been
26betrayed by his translator. That is how I would look at

.   P-89



 1this.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you take it from me that this Weidenfeld edition, sad
 3to say, only went through one edition and there were no
 4other editions than this? If he had had this edition
 5before him, he would have used use phrase "public
 6rumour".
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am in possession of a paper back that presumably was
 8sold in great quantities that has exactly the Weidenfeld
 9translation, so it is not a scarce book to get.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     They did not change this wording then? They did not use
11the word ominous reputation, which is the wording that has
12been used by Philip Burrin?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am afraid I am not following you right now.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think this is such an open question that it
15is not going to get you anywhere really. There is no
16point in my not saying that. I see the point you are
17driving at but it is too speculative.
18 MR IRVING:     My point, my Lord, is quite clearly that, if this
19historian uses the phrase "ominous reputation", which is
20arguably very close to the translation which is adopted
21both by myself and Weidenfeld translation, then it would
22be perverse to call me perverse for having adopted a
23perverse ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think the criticism is more focused
25really, that you saw the German text, saw the word
26"Schrecken", but were nevertheless content to use the

.   P-90



 1word "rumour" because it was in Weidenfeld when
 2"Schrecken" does not mean "rumour". That I think is the
 3point.
 4 MR IRVING:     So, my Lord, does this translator.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow that. In a sense, this is
 6beside the point.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One have would it to ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is my feeling. I have the point you
 9seek to make. I have told you what I think about it.
10 MR IRVING:     The point I am seeking to make is that he is not a
11Holocaust denier. He is not perverse. Others also use a
12milder version of it than the outright terror, which is
13possible translation of "Schrecken" but not the only one.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One way to deal with it is to get the Burrin original and
15see what he says in French, because this is what would
16reflect what he was thinking, and then we could decide
17whether Burrin, as a historian or a historically ignorant
18translator, using a different version to save himself the
19time from a responsible translation, is at fault here.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     While you have the bundle in front of you, we can now
21dispose of the bundle in a few minutes, page 32 of the
22bundle, my Lord, I am just using this witness in order to
23introduce a document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are doing it in exactly an appropriate
25way, as I say.
26 MR IRVING:     Page 32 and page 33: Are you familiar with the

.   P-91



 1Harvard University? Of course you are.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that their library at
 4Harvard University is called the Weidener library?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this appear to be a list of books which the library
 7has in its card file by an author called David Irving?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And do there appear to be 47 books by that author in the
10Harvard University library?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     47 entries. Some of them are duplicate.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words, 47 copies of my books are in Harvard
13University Library?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a commendable total, would you say?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a large number.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many books by Professor Browning are there in the
18Harvard University Library? Have you any estimate?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know if they have any of mine!
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, joking apart, what I get out of
21this is that you are thought by Harvard University or the
22Wagner Library to be the sort of author of whose many
23books they have a large number in stock. I think that is
24a fair point for you to make.
25 MR IRVING:     Taken in conjunction with one of the earlier
26paragraphs of Professor Evans' expert report, my Lord --

.   P-92



 1I am sure your Lordship will remember it -- Professor
 2Evans went to the British Library and found that my book
 3"Hitler's War" was kept on the pornographic and
 4restricted list. Apparently, it is not the case in
 5respected institutions in the United States.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Professor Evans makes points like that,
 7you are entitled to make this sort of point in reply.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would just add that Harvard University tries to have a
 9complete list so they will buy everything. It does not
10reflect an endorsement of the authors by virtue of the
11fact they have them available in the library.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, of course.
13 MR IRVING:     Would you turn to page 34 of that bundle? These
14are just odds and ends and this is the appropriate way to
15use them, I think. It is the last page. My Lord, this is
16the German original and also I have translated it into
17English for your Lordship.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very helpful. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:     It is German police decodes. It is Traffic of
20November 13th 1941, is that correct? Intercepted and
21decoded a month later roughly. There are two radio
22messages here, is that correct?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Item 10 and item 32, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Item 10 and 32. Would you agree that item 10 appears to
25be a radio message sent from the SS Chief Medical Officer
26in Riga to the firm of Tesch and Stabenow in Hamburg?

.   P-93



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not see the Riga. I see radio message of the SS at
 2Hamburg.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The last line says: "Signed, Senior Medical Officer"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was looking at the top.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree this is from the Senior Medical Officer
 6attached to the Chief SS Officer in Riga and it is going
 7to the firm of Tesch and Stabenow in Hamburg?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Via the Hamburg SS, yes.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, sorry, can I just ask you this?
10It is called a decode. Is this is an intercept?
11 MR IRVING:     This is a British intercept.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A Bletchley intercept?
13 MR IRVING:     From Bletchley Park. One of this myriad of
14hundreds of thousands of messages, but it is typical of
15the kind of information that is there waiting to be fished
16out of the Public Record Office. Would you agree that
17this shows a request for information on which Zyklon was
18dispatched for the use of a man called Dr Tesch?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know who Tesch and Stabenow were?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are people involved -- no, I do not know for sure. I
22will not say. I mean, I have heard their names.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right to say that they are the firm in Hamburg which
24had the monopoly of supplies of Zyklon and other
25fumigation agents east of the River Elb?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I remember the names in connection with the production of

.   P-94



 1Zyklon-B. I could not testify that they were in Hamburg
 2or had a monopoly.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that this message is referring to dispatch, not only
 4of Zyklon, but also substances referred to as Tegas,
 5Athylo, Trito?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are referring to three other products. Whether they
 7are gas or not, we do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, we do.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept they are other fumigation products?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I will accept that they are referring to three products.
12I do not see anything that says what their purpose is.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and the message also shows that Dr Tesch who is doing
14something in Riga connected with training?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Obviously, they did not get the complete message, but they
16do have the word "training" in Riga, at least as part of a
17garbled part of the intercept.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that the inference to be drawn from that telegram is
19that people were being trained in the use of fumigation
20agents, both lethal and non-lethal?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Since I do not know what Tegas, Athylo.D and Trito are,
22I can only say that there are three products in addition
23to Zyklon being dispatched.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that Tegas is a substance which is nine
25parts of ethylene oxide to one part of carbon dioxide? It
26is one of the proprietary fumigation agents that the

.   P-95



 1German Army used?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I have no ground to accept or dispute. If you want
 3to present that to the court or whatever, I cannot comment
 4on that because I simply do not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the other items were, in fact, proprietary fumigation
 6agents?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, does this decode tell you
 8anything about whether it was a lethal or a non-lethal use
 9of these gases, assuming they were gasses or fumigation
10agents?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They say nothing to that regard and I do not know of any
12lethal gassings in Riga, except for the gas vans which
13gassed with carbon monoxide.
14 MR IRVING:     I just need one further piece of evidence. Have
15you read the Tesch trial at all, the trial of Dr Bruno
16Tesch by the British?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not read that?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the word "training" indicates the people were being
21trained in the use of fumigation agents or could be both?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They were engaged in the training of something.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I am going to go through the remaining pages of your
24report. We have started at I think round about page 24.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you go further, Mr Irving, shall we
26just decide what should be the home for this? I will be

.   P-96



 1guided by the Defendants, Mr Rampton.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you have any suggestions about where this
 4clip should go?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord ----
 6 MR IRVING:     L, I think.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     --- what we will do, if your Lordship will just
 8put it all at the back of L for the moment, we will take
 9out the ones which are chronological.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Thank you very much.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, so you have an overview, I have now
12finished the general part and what may seem to your
13Lordship rather vague and eccentric (as the opposite of
14concentric) questioning. We are now focusing just on the
15report. I think I will be finishing this half way through
16the afternoon.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not hurry at all. My problem was simply
18you were assuming too much knowledge on my part.
19 MR IRVING:     I was hoping to hit a few nails in while this
20witness was here.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. You are perfectly entitled to do
22that.
23 MR IRVING:     And we will do the same with Professor Longrich
24when he comes. (To the witness): Paragraph 4.4.1, which
25is on page 24 of your report, Professor?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

.   P-97



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Once again, simply stated, I do not deny that these
 2shootings occurred and these killings occurred. All I am
 3looking at here are two specific matters. First of all,
 4the scale, and, secondly, the quality of the evidence that
 5is available to us. That is what these questions are all
 6going to. You say: "The commanders in the field were
 7explicitly told to report extensively" -- this is your
 8middle sentence -- "as both Hitler and Himmler were to be
 9kept well informed."
10     Now, did you have a specific reason for
11including Hitler in that sentence, or what I am asking for
12is what is the proof that Hitler had asked to be kept well
13informed?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The document that we cited of August 1st 1941, I do not
15say Hitler asked, I said the document there said Hitler
16was to receive, you know, a regular supply of reports, the
17current reports.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this paragraph refers only to the systematic mass
19murder, does it not? It does not refer to the
20Einsatzgruppen's other operations?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If you want to know the work of the Einsatzgruppen and one
22major piece of the work of the Einsatzgruppen was the
23killings.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But I do not want to repeat the discussion we had about
25that document yesterday, but we concluded that the
26document was looking for visual materials?

.   P-98



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To supplement, it was following on the already existing
 2policy of handing on these reports and they wanted to
 3fatten them.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I guess what I am asking really is that the only document
 5you rely on when you say that both Hitler and Himmler were
 6to be kept informed?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the one for Hitler, I am not ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not interested in Himmler. We have accepted that
 9Himmler needed to be kept informed.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So solely based on the 1st August 1941?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the documentary evidence we have, yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Thank you.
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of a wider thing, of course, Heydrich then
14summarized these, and that we have the monthly summaries
15that are spread out and copied as many as 100 for report,
16that are distributed to various Ministries, and the
17Foreign Office report will be seen by 30 or 40 people. So
18there does seem to be a great eagerness to get the word
19out. This is not something within the government that
20these reports are terribly shielded.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with Hitler's order on secrecy, are you
22not, of January 1940, the need-to-know order, that Hitler
23issued the order saying that only those were to be told of
24secret operations or events ----
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen reference to it. I do not believe I have read
26it myself, but I have seen reference to it.

.   P-99



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that would have tended to keep information
 2compartmentalized, would it not?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These always listed who was to receive, so there was -- it
 4was not circulated on the street corner. They had a list
 5of who was authorized to receive it.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you say now in paragraph 4.4.2, the next paragraph:
 7"Such a thorough documentation does not exist concerning
 8the fate of the Jews from the rest of Europe". In other
 9words, we are reliant on postwar materials, eyewitness
10accounts, inferences, are we?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are reliant on that systematic documentation in the
12sense we do not have a complete run of reports like we
13have of Einsatzgruppen. We have some documents that have
14survive here, some there. We are reliant on less complete
15documentation, though some pockets of documentation that
16are very suggestive and, in addition, postwar testimony as
17well. Documentation, for instance, concerning the
18deportation operations is fairly rich in some countries.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you are referring to the railroad information?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I say "concerning the fate of the Jews from the rest
21of Europe", we have a mixed bag of documentation, rather
22than a fairly rich and steady run. I mean, Einsatzgruppen
23reports, to have a complete series, it is fairly rare for
24an historian.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate that.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not have that rich ----

.   P-100



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if you take one specific matter, for example, the
 2deportation of the Jews from France, is it right to say
 3that there is a broad measure of disagreement on what the
 4total number involved was, ranging from 25,000 at one end
 5of the scale (which I think Pierre Vidal Nacette supports)
 6right up to the high 200,000s?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Of how many in France or how many deported?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many Jews were deported from France?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think most historians accept the figure of around
1075,000. I have not been aware of a huge difference
11because we have references to most of the trains and when
12they left, and we can add up the trains. So I did not,
13I do not think -- it is not my -- I am not aware that
14there is a vast discrepancy of interpretation concerning
15the number of Jews deported from France.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why would Himmler have discussed with Hitler the
17deportation of 200,000 or 300,000 Jews from France when
18that figure was not in France at that time?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In mainland France there is roughly about 300,000 Jews.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The number in North Africa, I have no idea, but it is ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a discussion on 10th December 1942. Do you
23remember what happened one month before that?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, the Germans were pouring troops into Tunisia.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     And we had seized control of most of French North West
26Africa, had we not, so that the Germans could not have

.   P-101



 1done anything with the Jews in that part of the world, so
 2those figures could not have been included, could they?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not in the 2 or 300,000, but if you are working -- the
 4question is why -- let me back up so we do not get totally
 5lost. There is a figure in the Wannsee conference
 6protocol that has mystified historians because it is
 7listed I think 600,000. It is a number well beyond what
 8any historian believes of Jews in France. Puzzling, some
 9people have speculated, purely speculated, that this may
10include the Jews of French North Africa too.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     But on December 10th 1942 that can no longer have
12pertained?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, but we do not get that figure. We get the 2 to
14300,000 that is ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Still wrong?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. That is still approximately right. If you started
17with 300,000 and 40,000 were deported in 1942, you would
18be at 260,000.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there were not two or 300,000 Jews in mainland France
20on December 10th 1942, were there?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Oh, there were. 300,000 is the figure that I have seen
22for the population in all of France and, of course,
23Germany occupies the southern part of France and thus
24would have the Jews of all of France in December 1942.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where have you seen these figures?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This would come from Michael Merris and Paxton's book on

.   P-102



 1the Vichy France and the Jews.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn to page 25 please? I am looking at
 3paragraph 5.1.1 which I suppose is your topic paragraph.
 4You are setting out what you are going to be saying. You
 5say, the final sentence in that paragraph, you are
 6referring to the fact that there are disagreements over
 7historical interpretation?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Absolutely.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are not at all unusual, you say?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have seen several of these, the questions of
11interpretation from circumstantial evidence about what
12date decisions were made ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not have to have a Professor's title to be entitled
14to have a different opinion, do you, or to be Lord
15somebody or Sir John somebody, do you? You are entitled
16to have a different opinion?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a range of opinion and one does not have to have
18a PhD to hold an opinion.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You do not have to be rocket scientist, as they say
20now. You say: "On the contrary, it is quite a normal
21occurrence" to have different opinions about how the
22programme for murder of the Jews came about?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You finish that paragraph by saying: "What follows is my
25interpretation concerning the emergence" of what you call
26"the Final Solution" by which you are referring to the

.   P-103



 1murder of the Jews, are you not?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "It is not shared in every aspect by other able and
 4learned historians of the Holocaust".
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it would be wrong to call them Holocaust deniers,
 7would it not, just because they disagree with the
 8established view?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As I have said, there is a large body of interpretation on
10a number of issues, including the issue of whether Hitler
11gave an order or not, that is within the historical
12debate.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is permissible, in your view, and his Lordship may
14interrupt this discussion, to debate and what is
15impermissible to debate? Where is the line drawn?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Where we draw the line? I would say ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In relation to these death camps, do you
18mean, or more generally?
19 MR IRVING:     The Final Solution -- the mass murder of the Jews.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say if interpretations are based upon evidence
21such as you invented yesterday when you added the lines to
22the Himmler notation, and that becomes the basis of an
23interpretation, that would be one that we could say, "This
24is flawed".
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Over the line?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "This is over the line".

.   P-104



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we are talking about December 18th 1941 note?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     We put things in square brackets saying, if you remember,
 4Jewish problem to be treated as partisans or to be wiped
 5out as partisans ----
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And when you added "that they were" ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in square brackets?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- I said that was invention, and if one is using
 9invented evidence, this would be one example of where we
10would say, "This person is no longer taking part in the
11debate. He is fantasizing evidence".
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is a very good example. Suppose the person who did
13the inventing put the invented words in square brackets,
14which is the accepted connotation for his assistance to
15the reader, and if he also then gave the German original,
16if there was any doubt, would that be over the line or
17within the line?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would have to see the particular case to get a sense of
19whether it was clearly intending to help the reader or to
20mislead the reader. I mean, this would be a border line
21case and one would have to look at the individual
22circumstances.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the criterion then is if something has been changed or
24included with the intention of misleading, then that would
25be over the line?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Certainly when the intention is clear, then we are -- it

.   P-105



 1is easier to decide. I, myself, would feel that if one
 2has a pattern of distortion, even if it is not intended,
 3but is so much of the personality of the person that they
 4are so identified with this that they no longer in a sense
 5can see the evidence except by kind of default position,
 6one gets a consistent pattern of distortion even if it is
 7not a calculated and wilful distortion.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a very useful concept. In other words, if an
 9historian is so imbued with the notion that, "Surely,
10Adolf Hitler gave the order and, even we cannot find it,
11it must be there somewhere and I am going to disregard any
12evidence to the contrary", that would fit within that
13concept, would it, or are you only looking at the people
14on the other side of the mirror when you say that?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think it is a general rule and the is, as you have
16brought it up, obviously, one can reverse these things,
17and if every piece of evidence one gets, the first thing
18is, "Does this implicate Hitler? Is there Hitler in it?
19Well, it does not implicate Hitler, we can deal were this
20document; but if Hitler is in there, then we have to do
21something with it".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Suppose there was a document which suggested that Hitler
23had repeated the order that he wanted the Final Solution
24postponed until the war was over and all the historians
25ignored that, would they be being perverse or would they
26be entitled to act like that?

.   P-106



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the circumstances, which I am sure we will discuss in
 2detail, I will explain why, I do not think it would be
 3perverse not to discuss that document.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do not discuss the document today. I just wanted to
 5know would it be right to ignore it and pretend it did not
 6exist or would that be perverse?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think one is obligated to footnote all the
 8documents they do not use.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words ----
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And that they have made a judgment they do not find
11helpful.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You put it under the carpet and you do not even put a
13footnote about it, and that is OK, is it? That is what
14you are saying?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Again, it would depend very much on the circumstances.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So I am trying to help you here because the picture you
17are giving is that a person is considered to be a
18respectable historian provided he has views that are
19respectable, if I can put it like that, but as soon as he
20starts having disrespectable views, then -- if he has
21politically incorrect views, then this makes him
22disreputable and beyond the pail?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It not said that at all.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there are certain views which one has no problem with
25at all?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a range of views which involve a looking at the

.   P-107



 1evidence that historians seeing that evidence would say,
 2"This is within a range of interpretation". The example
 3I then gave was that if one invents further evidence, this
 4is not within the realm of acceptance as one example of
 5where I would say we could say one has gone over the line.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but putting something in square brackets to assist
 7the reader is not inventing evidence, is it? If you are
 8adding an interpretation for the reader and helping the
 9reader to see that -- would that be ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving ----
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that could be called misleading.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- I think that for two reasons we have had
13enough of this. (A) it is my province, and (B) I think
14the questions are too broad. I think it all depends.
15 MR IRVING:     It is, my Lord, and I am going to ask the witness
16now to turn to 5.1.6 which is on pages 27 to 8. We have
17had this before already in another context, my Lord. In
18fact, it is not irrelevant to the previous matter. (To
19the witness): If one has a certain mind set, Professor,
20is it correct that one might read a document the wrong
21way?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is possible.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we are going to come to one example of this
24straightaway. You say at the foot of page 27:
25"Rademacher reported: 'Then as soon as the technical
26possibility exists within the framework of the total

.   P-108



 1solution to the Jewish question, the Jews will be deported
 2by waterway to the reception camp in the east."
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, the fact that they were going to go to a reception
 5camp implies to your mind that they were going to go to a
 6sticky end, to some kind of sinister place where nasty
 7things were going to be done to them?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What I used this for was to show that a reception camp,
 9and we will come to my mistake in terms of the plural and
10the singular, I am sure, immediately. As I said
11yesterday, yes, I did make mistakes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that an example of the kind of mistake one might make
13if one had a mind set where you were expecting that we are
14talking about one of the Operation Reinhardt camps, one of
15the camps, that they are going to be sent there and they
16are going to be bumped off; but when we read that the
17actual document says they are going to be sent to
18reception camps, all the sinisterness goes out of this
19particular document?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     On the contrary, I think my interpretation was against
21interest, that I have looked and what, as an historian,
22I have been concerned with is evidence in the fall of 1941
23of this, as say, a vision between Himmler, Hitler,
24Heydrich and others, that they have now decided on the
25murder of Jews. For my purposes, in terms of what I would
26have been predisposed to find, would indeed to have found

.   P-109



 1evidence of a much broader thing and to have interpreted
 2it correctly. To have it in the singular was against
 3interest; an error on my part, but certainly not one that
 4would be one that I would have made willingly or would
 5have been disposed to make because of opinions I held that
 6this is a case, in fact, where I made an error that
 7limited the importance of the document I had, and the
 8correct translation, I think, is very useful to me because
 9it goes towards something that I have been working to
10collect evidence on, hoping to bolster an argument. So in
11that case, I would say this is not a reflection of a
12predisposed mine set to read the document wrongly. I read
13it wrongly despite a prior interpretation that I had
14published.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you do not think that this very minor translation error
16has in any way damaged the burden of the argument you are
17making?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot see that it makes a blind bit of
19difference myself.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think it limits it. If my argument has been that after,
21that the second Hitler decision came in early October and
22that after that there is an awareness among the Germans
23they are going to build a series of camps, to put this in
24the singular instead of the plural, that Eichmann's
25assistant saw travelling with Rademacher is speaking about
26the creation of, I put it there, within "the technical

.   P-110



 1possibility of a framework for a total solution" is
 2talking about a series of camps, this is a much stronger
 3document than the way I have interpreted it.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it depends if it is one big camp or a
 5lot of little camps.
 6 MR IRVING:     Except that one big camp might have been Belzec or
 7Sobibor or Treblinka, whereas a lot of little camps could
 8not have been, my Lord. It would have been the "new
 9life", if I can put it like that? It would be the
10gettoes, the alternative solution that was being
11propagated. I fully accept that it was an accidental
12mistranslation on the witness's part. But the other point
13I was going to make is do such accidents happen and are
14they necessarily perverse in translation?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If they happen, they should at least sort of be 50 per
16cent one way and 50 per cent another, and here the case we
17have found is one, as I say, against interest. If there
18was a consistent pattern where all mistakes tended to
19support the position of the man making the mistakes, one
20could make a case that (indeed, what we have talked about)
21a predisposed mind set was contributing.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mean it is like a waiter who always gives the wrong
23change in his own favour?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     5.1.8, please, which is on page 28 -- I am just going to
26refer very briefly to Aberhard Wetzel. We have looked at

.   P-111



 1this document many times. I am not going to look at it
 2again. What happened to Aberhard Wetzel, do you know?
 3Was he prosecuted or punished in any way?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know of a Wetzel trial, so I assume he was not,
 5but I do not know that.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is yet another case of a man who, prima facie, on
 7the basis of the documents on which you rely was
 8committing crimes of great enormity or encouraging them or
 9inspiring them, and yet nothing happened to him.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, the problem is, of course, that it is a letter in
11which they propose something. It was never done.
12Therefore, the document does not -- the only documentary
13evidence was to a crime that was not committed because, in
14fact, this plan was not carried out and, therefore, they
15had no crime with which to charge Mr Wetzel. Knowledge of
16the killing does not constitute in German law a felony.
17It is contributing to the killing and in this case there
18was no gas van killing in Riga resulting from this action
19by Wetzel, so there was no crime to charge him with.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now page 29 please, paragraph 5.1.9, you summarize: "In
21short, surviving documents show that by late October 1941
22the Nazi regime" had done a number things. But does not
23the previous paragraph, 5.1.8, suggest that it is actual
24individuals who are doing it and that frequently their
25proposals were not being taken up? What do you mean by
26the "Nazi regime"? Are you talking about Himmler, from

.   P-112



 1Himmler downwards or from Hitler downwards?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I am talking about a policy that is out there.
 3I think Hitler is involved. I do not have a document to
 4prove it, but given how I think the Himmler/Hitler
 5relationship worked, and that in every case, numerous
 6cases we can find that Himmler did not act without
 7Hitler's permission, that I would say -- my conclusion
 8circumstantially is that Hitler is part of that, but I do
 9not have the document to collect my £1,000.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say in paragraph 5.1.10: "These documents suggest
11that a policy of systematic extermination", and so on, was
12going on, but is suggestion enough really? You have
13documents from which inferences can be drawn, and yet here
14we are, 55 years after the war is over, we are still
15looking for documents that only suggest things?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, this is, in terms of dating, suggests that by late
17October, and that others like Jerloch argue it is not
18until December, some like Dr Longerich will argue that
19this comes even later than that. The suggestion is not
20that there was or was not a killing programme. It is at
21what date it will take shape.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that must be right, as a matter of
23the interpretation of what is in the report. I think,
24Mr Irving, it is probably a time to -- unless you have a
25short point you would like to deal with.
26 MR IRVING:     No. It is quite a long point, the next one, it is

.   P-113



 1going to go to page 31, yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we will do that at 2 o'clock.
 3 (Luncheon adjournment)
 4(2.00 p.m.)
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
 6 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord. Professor Browning, are you
 7still under contract to Yad Vashem?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have contracted to write a book for them and that has
 9not been completed.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     They paid you $35,000?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, they have paid me, I believe, 27,000.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that Yad Vashem also paid money
13to the second Defendant in this case?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know. No, I am not aware.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So you do not see any possible conflict of interest
16in giving expert evidence in this action on behalf of the
17Second Defendant?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One, I did not know that and two, I do not see the
19connection if I had none.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the book published by the Second Defendant
21"Denying the Holocaust"?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had you not seen that very early on in the book in her
24introduction and on the title pages, she thanks the Yad
25Vashem/Vidal Sassoon Institute?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not remember reading that. I may not have read the

.   P-114



 1credits. One often goes directly to the body.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Yad Vashem is an institution of the State of Israel,
 3is it not?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are, in that respect, a paid agent I suppose of the
 6State of Israel using the word "agent" in its purely legal
 7sense?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If that was the case, then since I had been at the
 9Holocaust Museum, I would also have been an agent of the
10American Government, and since I have received
11scholarships in Germany, I would be an agent of the German
12government, so I must be a very duplicitous fellow to be
13able to follow these regimes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is lots of money, is there not, in connection with
15the Holocaust research scholarships? It has become a
16well-funded kind of enterprise, can I say, Holocaust
17research, history, publishing ----
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     All in the past, I wish it had been much better funded.
19I did not find that I lived particularly well.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     $35,000 to write a book which you have not delivered seems
21relatively well remunerated to me?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They have got the manuscript for the first half and that
23is where I have been remunerated from. They have it as in
24France.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the book that, I have not quite got the
26name of it, but this organisation is going to publish

.   P-115



 1written by you connected with your evidence?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I mean I was in the course of researching that book.
 3I am using evidence here, but it is not directly related
 4to this, no.
 5 MR IRVING:     Will you tell his Lordship what the nature of the
 6book is you are going to write for Yad Vashem which is the
 7Holocaust memorial in Israel, is it not?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The book is an overview of Nazi/Jewish policy from 1935 to
 91945. The first half of September 1939 to March 1942 is
10what is now in the hands of both the editorial board of
11Yad Vashem and the Cambridge University Press, and it is
12under completion of that manuscript that I was paid the
13money, according to the contract that we had signed.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it covers the same general area as your
15evidence but is broader?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 MR IRVING:     If you were to write a book for Yad Vashem which
18suggested that you discovered that Adolf Hitler had not
19issued the order or that it was just a totally haphazard
20killing operation that had resulted from the Holocaust,
21would this book be welcomed by them, do you think? Would
22that enhance his prospects or diminish them?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As I have said, a number of historians have already made
24the argument that Hitler did not give the order, and
25I have been with them at a conference at Yad Vashem. They
26had been invited to take part in the discussion there.

.   P-116



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will it surprise to you hear ----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have been on what we would call the functional end in
 3terms of Hitler not having, as I say, a blueprint from the
 4beginning, and though that is different than many Israeli
 5scholars' view, that does not cause them to view me as
 6outside the pale.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I have not had anyone interfere with or attempt to
 9interfere with how I write the book.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     The point I am trying to make is obviously quite clearly
11you do not feel that your evidence, expert evidence in
12this case, has been in any way tainted by the money you
13have received from the State of Israel or Yad Vashem?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I have written a book from which obviously my
15scholarly reputation is going to be based, that would be
16far more important to me than whatever money may be given,
17and that certainly would not be a factor in what I was
18writing.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. If an historian writes a book, just a
20hypothetical historian writes a book, and then between
21that publication of that book and the publication of the
22next edition of that book he changes his mind in any
23respect, on whatever basis of evidence, and he makes
24deletions from the text of the original edition of his
25book, is this reprehensible necessarily?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not necessarily. In my review of the second edition of

.   P-117



 1Raul Hilberg I noted where he had made changes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are running ahead of my question.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That represented his view of the change between 61 and 85.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have correctly anticipated my next question,
 5Professor, which is you are familiar with Professor Raul
 6Hilberg?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you describe Raul Hilberg and his qualifications to
 9the court, please?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that Raul Hilberg is the major historian who
11has written the overview of what we call the machinery of
12destruction, bureaucratic ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hold it one moment. You describe him as an historian.
14Did he actually study history at university? Did he get a
15degree in history?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He sits in the Political Science Department, but in
17terms of political science he is an historical end of that
18field which in fact involves people who do many other
19things that do not have particularly historical dimension.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you do not have to have book learning as an historian
21in university to be regarded as an historian?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Walter Laqueur is an example, is he not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know what Laqueur's Ph.D., is but Raul Hilberg's
25is political science.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     And Winston Churchill is another historian of course and

.   P-118



 1he never history, and Edward Gibbon I believe he also
 2never studied history, and we can keep on going through
 3the list, am I right?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- and Heroditus, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Raul Hilberg is, as you say, one of the world's leading
 6Holocaust historians?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In my view.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     He wrote a book called ----
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Destruction of the European Jews.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Destruction of the European Jews. What was his
11position on Hitler's responsibility in the first edition
12of his book?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the first book he was mainly laying out what he called
14bureaucratic structures, but that he did have sentences
15that talked about two decisions, a two-decision theory,
16that Hitler made a decision in July of 1941 and then
17Hitler made the decision later, the first for Soviet
18Jewry, the second for the mass murder of the European Jews
19outside Soviet territory. He rephrased that to ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hold it for a moment, you have very carefully chosen your
21word there. You said "decision".
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Two decisions I said.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, decisions. Is there a distinction in your mind
24between "orders" and "decisions"?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I think so. I usually use the word "decisions".
26I do not usually use the word "order", because an order

.   P-119



 1implies a more formal, it is a formal transfer from
 2position of authority requesting a certain action be taken
 3in a more specific way. "Decision" I have used, and
 4I would also say I use this in a broad way, a point at
 5which it became crystallized in the mind of Hitler and
 6Himmler and Heydrich, or at least Himmler and Heydrich
 7knew now what Hitler expected of them had been conveyed
 8what they were to do. I have said that in the senses at
 9the end of this decision-making process, and I have always
10said that is an amorphous incremental process. I have
11argued against what I would call the "big bang" theory,
12there is a certain moment in time in which suddenly,
13voila, we will kill all the Jews.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     So did Hilberg in the first edition of his book, The
15Destruction of European Jewry, refer to a Hitler order or
16a Hitler decision or both?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot remember exactly. I would have to look at the
18text.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened between the publication of that edition and
20the publication of the second edition? What did he do?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He took out specific references to a Hitler decision or
22order, I forget how he phrased it, and phrased it more
23generally.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not right that he went the whole way through the
25book cutting out the word "Hitler order", and the notion
26that Hitler had issued and order?

.   P-120



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In so far as it refers to a specific order, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you actually wrote an article on this subject called
 3"The Revised Hilberg"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is no doubt well in your memory?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, it was written in mid-1980, so it is 15 years in the
 7past.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And your recollection of events 15 years ago is not all
 9that good?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is not bad, but if you want to tell me which word did
11I use I would like the like text. If you want the general
12gist of it I can give it to you.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am suggesting that if your recollection of something you
14did 15 years ago is not all that hot, then an eyewitness's
15recollection about something 30 years ago might be equally
16shaky?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I can remember writing the article and I can tell you the
18gist. I cannot tell you if I used a word or a different
19word. It depends on the magnitude of detail that you are
20talking about.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just winding up that matter, there is nothing
22reprehensible whatsoever about Hilberg going all the way
23through his book taking out any reference to a Hitler
24order, which is quite a major element to the book
25obviously, because he had reflected. On second thoughts
26he had decided the evidence was not there, is that the

.   P-121



 1right way of putting it?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He had decided that the way he had phrased it in the first
 3volume should be revised.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Surely the key consideration is what
 6persuaded him to change his mind. If there were good
 7reasons, there good reasons, and if there were not there
 8were not.
 9 MR IRVING:     Witness, can you answer his Lordship's curiosity in
10this respect?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He does not explicitly address that question as to why the
12change. He rephrases it in such a way that he felt that
13was too specific.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. What I am getting at is, that the ground
15for criticising him for changing his mind would depend on
16the quality of the evidence that convinced him to change
17his mind. If there were not good reasons for his change
18of mind, then he should not have changed his mind or the
19text, that is obvious, do you agree with it?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     But of course it would be an entirely subjective
22decision by the author or historian concerned as to what
23evidence would meet his own personal criteria?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and I think in this case it was partly a semantic
25question. He felt the word "order" implied or had come to
26imply by the 1980s more than he was comfortable with in

.   P-122



 1specificity, and so he phrased it in a more general way
 2because by this point of course the controversy between
 3intentionalist and functionalist had broken out. In fact
 4he withdrew himself from that controversy. He phrased
 5things in a way that was not part of that debate.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I put to you just a few words of your testimony in a
 7court action in Canada in about 1988, which obviously your
 8recollection then was refresher, it was 12 years ago:
 9     "I will go on, thank you, said Browning. There
10is a question of how we understand the word 'order' and
11this is a case where I think we have deepened
12understanding. Though we have tried to deal with the
13concept, what does it mean for there to be Hitler order, a
14so-called Fuhrer befehl. I have certainly looked into
15that question. I have myself", that is you, "proposed
16that we have to look at it in terms of a series of signals
17or incitements", and that appears to have been a favourite
18concept of yours, signals or incitements?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I did not mean to interrupt.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember saying that in that particular legal
23action in Canada, in the Zundel case?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I remember we discussed the question and that sounds very
25much like what I said.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you just explain to the court what you mean by this

.   P-123



 1phrase of signals and incitements from somebody like
 2Hitler which would lead to a Holocaust?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say it is the same as we have been discussing this
 4morning and yesterday. Hitler sets a level of
 5expectation, in this case, for instance, that the war in
 6the Soviet Union is to be not simply a conventional war
 7but a war of destruction, an ideological war, and then
 8people bring him proposals and he approves or does not
 9approve.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     It all sounds frightfully vague, does it not, far short of
11an order with a heading signature Adolf Hitler that we
12have in some of the other Hitler crimes like euthanasia?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This in a sense is a very different kind of process,
14and I think the reason why Hilberg took that word out is
15because people would read that word and interpret it that
16there must be a specific piece of paper, and so he talked
17more about a general process in which intentions or
18desires are conveyed, but did not want to use the word
19"order".
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Does your Lordship wish to explore that particular
21matter any further?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, thank you very much.
23 MR IRVING:     I think it is quite useful that we should establish
24that somebody of the reputation of Hilberg became uneasy,
25that in his own conscience, would you agree, he felt that
26he could no longer accept, having suggested there was a

.   P-124



 1Hitler order in his first edition and he went through
 2actually -- I think, would you agree this is more
 3significant than not mentioning it in the first place,
 4that he had put it in the first place and then took it
 5out? This is a more significant step than just not
 6mentioning that there was no Hitler order?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does mean that this had become I think a word that had
 8become more freighted than when he wrote the first
 9edition, and that he felt now the connotation of the
10expectation or the interpretation of the word "order"
11would place him in an interpretation that he was not
12comfortable with.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you visited any of the Nazi concentration camps or
14the sites that you are talking about?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have been to Poland and visited Chelmno, Treblinka,
16Sobibor, Belzec and I have been to Auschwitz, Birkenhau.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have been to Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And to Semlin.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this recently or some years ago?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In 1990 or 1991.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     1990, 1991?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One of those. I forget which summer.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you visit the sites of the alleged gas chambers in
24Auschwitz one and Auschwitz two in Birkenhau?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I visited both of them, and so I did go into the
26crematorium building, the reconstruction in Auschwitz one.

.   P-125



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You called it a reconstruction?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it is not the original building?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. It was a crematorium and then in 43 to 45, I am not
 5an expert on this but I believe it was used for other
 6purposes, and then it was reconstructed back to close to
 7what it had been before. Then I visited in Birkenhau and
 8walked around the grounds, including the four sites of
 9crematoria 2 through 5. One could walk to bunker two, the
10site of bunker one that seems to be totally unknown now.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Did they make any attempt to tell you at the time
12you visited these two sites that the Auschwitz one site,
13the old camp, that what they were showing you was a
14reconstruction?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know even remember. I went in and I knew what I
16was looking at and I do not even recall how it was signed
17or labelled.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were you aware of the fact that you were not being shown
19the real thing?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was aware that this was a reconstruction, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you say you also went to Dachau concentration camp?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have been to Dachau much earlier. I believe that would
23have been 1972, the fall of 1972.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do they have gas chambers on display at Dachau
25concentration camp?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a gas chambers on display in Dachau concentration

.   P-126



 1camp.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish to express an opinion to the court as to
 3whether that is a genuine gas chamber or not?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whether he wishes to, is it going to help me
 5really at all? I know that that there was at one time a
 6belief that there had been gas chambers at Dachau. I know
 7it is now accepted, I think on all sides, that there were
 8never any. Do I any need any more than that?
 9 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship will accept the proposition that
10the Allies and their Allies after World War II are capable
11of erecting fakes for whatever purpose, and that it is not
12perverse of me to have said that and it does not make me
13ipso facto a Holocaust denier, then I will move on to
14another matter on.
15 MR RAMPTON:     If the word "fake" were changed for
16"reconstruction" or "demonstration" or something like
17that there would be common ground. The word "fake" is
18inappropriate for the reconstruction at Auschwitz one.
19 MR IRVING:     I would happily give Mr Rampton a reconstructive
20$50 bill if me gives me ten fives in exchange.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can have your wagers outside court. I do
22think we must move on. I do not think Dachau has anything
23to do with this case. I have explained my understanding
24of the position.
25 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the fact that at Nuremberg
26the British prosecutors stated that there had been

.   P-127



 1gassings at Dachau, Buchenwald and at Oranienburg?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I am not familiar with that passage.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have read the Nuremberg war crimes trials records?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have read some of them. I have not read the whole 42
 5volumes, no.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware of the fact that large numbers of
 7eyewitnesses, and I think this is relevant, my Lord ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     --- testified to the existence of homicidal gas
10chambers at Dachau?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know how many did.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that any did?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want to take that further you would
15have to put chapter and verse.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I cannot put chapter and verse to him at
17this time. If the witness says he is not aware of these
18eyewitnesses' testimonies I cannot take it further, but
19I shall certainly do so again with successor witness. If
20your Lordship agrees that putting it that way is relevant.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think that is a rather different kind
22of question and I think it is legitimate.
23 MR IRVING:     Moving back to the integration of Adolf Eichmann,
24are you aware of the conditions under which he was
25interrogated when he arrived in Israel?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He was in prison.

.   P-128



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he in prison with the light permanently switched on?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have read that that was the case. My guess is, and this
 3is purely speculation, the Israelis might have been very
 4worried that he might commit suicide, so they wanted a
 5constant watch on him. They did not want a dead witness
 6on their hands.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     That he was constantly in the company of a guard?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I presume he was under constant watch.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you suspect that this might have some affect on his
10mental stability if he was deprived of sleep through these
11conditions?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have no idea how bright the light was. There are such
13things as night lights that would not disturb the sleep at
14all.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any reason to believe that he was provided
16with a night light on these occasions?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have absolutely no idea what the wattage of the light in
18his cell was.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr Leon Poliakov who is also an expert on the Holocaust,
20is that name familiar to you?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am familiar with the name.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he a trained historian with a university engagement?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know what his academic background is.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I would now like to revert to the December 1941, the Hans
25Frank diary, the meeting which is familiar to this court
26now held on I think December 13th 1941 -- no, it is

.   P-129



 1December 16th.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The speech is December 16th.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The speech by Hans Frank is on December 16th?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am purely concerned with your treatment of this,
 6Professor. You have gone in some detail over the content
 7of that speech, and this is on page 31 of your expert
 8report.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5.1.13. I will ask that you have in front of
11you ----
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have the English text and the footnote I believe
13contains the original, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we have footnote 88, the document that corresponds to
15it? I think it would be adequate if I ask the witness
16just to read the three lines in German and translate what
17he has omitted.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I personally think it is a good idea to
19actually have the document.
20 MR IRVING:     The whole document.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Pages 68 to 75 of what I now know to be L17.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I missed the page number.
23 MR RAMPTON:     68 it starts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
25 MR IRVING:     The passage which you have quoted, Professor, is on
26page 457 of the printed text.

.   P-130



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you remember this is the passage where the translation
 3is: "What is to happen to the Jews? Do you believe that
 4they will be lodged in settlements in the Ostland in
 5Berlin? We were told why all this trouble. We cannot use
 6them in the Ostland or in the Reichskommissarat either,
 7liquidate them yourselves. We must destroy the Jews
 8wherever we encounter them and wherever it is possible in
 9order to preserve the entire structure of the Reich", and
10there you cease to quote. You then paraphrase for two or
11three lines on page 32 of your report?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then you continue with the word: "Nonetheless, we will
14take some kind of action". If you will now go to page 458
15of the original text you will see what you have omitted.
16It is seven lines down. Do you agree that you have
17omitted from the front of that quotation beginning with
18the word "nonetheless" ----
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am afraid I have still not located it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the German text. I have not got the
21English.
22 MR IRVING:     Line 2 of page 32 is what I am looking at on the
23expert report, my Lord.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not found it yet.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is line 2 of the expert report on page 32 and it is
26line 7 of the original Hans Frank conference.

.   P-131



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have the line 2. It is the line 7.
 2 MR IRVING:     Page 458.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     One should start from the first complete
 4paragraph.
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Is Judensendt the paragraph you want us to get to?
 6 MR IRVING:     That is correct.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     OK.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship has not found it yet. Footnote 88 and it is
 9page 488 of the printed text.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you translate, please, those first five or six
12lines, the first four lines of that paragraph: "The Jews
13are exceptionally damaging eaters for us", right?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     "In the general government we have got an estimated 2.5
16million, with the Jewish next of kin and all the rest that
17depends on them, now 3.5 million Jews", is that correct?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then a significant sentence follows: "We cannot shoot
20these 3.5 million Jews. We cannot poison them". Then you
21continue with the passage about: "Nonetheless, we will
22take some kind of action"?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to get into the content of this particular
25paragraph. I just want to ask for your motivation for
26leaving out that opening sentence, unless his Lordship

.   P-132



 1feels it is irrelevant?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not feel it is irrelevant at all. No.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I do not know that it was a specific motivation.
 4I do not see why one concluded or not concluded. What
 5I did is, he rejects certain kinds of or when he says, "We
 6cannot do this or cannot do that", I simply summarized
 7that as ----
 8 MR IRVING:     He effectively says: "We cannot shoot them. We
 9cannot poison them."
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is he suggesting we should strangle them?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What he is suggesting is he does not know how they are
13going to do it.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you not agree that if another historian had omitted
15sentences like that at the beginning of a paragraph,
16without any even any indication of an omission, he would
17be held up to opprobrium and obloquy?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I mean by putting precedents, you know, switching out of
19direct quotes I do not think I indicated that there was
20nothing that I was continuing directly on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Unless of course the part that was being omitted
22substantially altered the sense of the gist that you were
23trying to convey?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think it substantially alters the gist.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     If the man who is speaking says "We cannot kill them" ----
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, he does not say we cannot kill them. He says, "We

.   P-133



 1cannot shoot them or we cannot poison them".
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is another way of saying, in my submission, that we
 3cannot kill them?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not accept that.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Apart from gas what are the alternatives?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, the alternatives are that one can starve them. One
 7can keep them in conditions where they will perish. Of
 8course Frank does not know yet, I think, that in fact they
 9were working on ways to poison them. This would indicate
10Frank has not yet been initiated into the fact that indeed
11they will be poisoning them. What he does say, and what
12I think is important, is the fact that he is told there is
13going to be a big meeting to sort this out, and when they
14go, when Buhle then is sent to the Wannsee conference he
15is going to get some answers to this.
16 MR IRVING:     But did they discuss methods of killing at the
17Wannsee conference?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     According to Eichmann it is not literally in the
19protocol. They use the euphemism we talked about,
20solutional possibilities or possible solutions when
21Eichmann was asked ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which could mean anything, could it not?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     When Eichmann was asked what did that mean, he said it was
24ways of killing or something to that effect.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     When Eichmann was asked in Israel during these
26interrogations we were talking about a few minutes ago,

.   P-134



 1right?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And he agreed it could have meant killing?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. He did not agree that it could have meant. He said
 5that is what it did mean. When he did not want to agree
 6to such things such as Auschwitz, he denied it vigorously,
 7which would indicate that he could say no when he wanted
 8to.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are now on to the Wannsee conference which is quite
10useful, Professor.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before we do can I ask this. Do you read
12Frank at this point in the omitted words, do you read
13Frank as still quoting Hitler's speech?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I think at the beginning part of his talk in which he
15says, "We must put an end to the Jews" and he cites the
16Fuhrer and that he goes on, you know, "We must have
17compassion only for the German people", these are citings
18I think in a sense the speech that he got there. Then
19when he gets down to beyond that I believe he is now not
20necessarily paraphrasing what he had heard in Hitler's
21peach on December 12th.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He does say, "In Berlin we were told why all this
23trouble", and so on?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. My feeling here is that that is more than a speech,
25that he has had a separate meeting with Hitler and he must
26have at some point had meetings with people who told him

.   P-135



 1about the upcoming Wannsee conference, because there is no
 2indication that Hitler would have mentioned that. So that
 3I think he has talked to -- my interpretation would be
 4that he had talked to a number of people, possibly with
 5Hitler alone, and clearly with someone who let him know
 6that there would be further meetings, because he makes
 7reference to this meeting under the SS at which much of
 8this will be sorted out.
 9 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of testimony that Hans Frank gave
10at Nuremberg, evidence-in-chief I believe, in which he was
11questioned about his contacts with Hitler, and he
12mentioned having visited Hitler once and talked to Hitler
13about Auschwitz and asked him what was going on there,
14that he described having tried to gain access to Auschwitz
15but that he was turned back on the excuse that there was
16an epidemic? Are you familiar with that passage?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not, but Auschwitz is not in the General Government
18and certainly not in Frank's jurisdiction, and I would see
19no reason why he could barge into Auschwitz.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this particular passage put to you in the Canadian
21trial that I referred to earlier?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have a vague recollection but I do not remember in fact
23that discussion in any detail. I know that we brought up
24aspects of the Frank testimony at Nuremberg. I do not
25remember.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that Frank testified on oath at Nuremberg that when he

.   P-136



 1put this to Hitler, Hitler said to him, "I do not want to
 2hear about this, this nothing to do with me, this is
 3entirely Himmler's business"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not remember us discussing that passage. We may have
 5but I just do not remember it right now.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If your Lordship is interested I could find the actual
 7quotation and read it to you.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not do it now, but that is quite a
 9revealing exchange.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems to me.
12 MR IRVING:     I will do that overnight.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do.
14 MR IRVING:     We are now at the Wannsee conference. Is there any
15indication at all that Hitler was involved in the Wannsee
16conference or was even apprised of it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have no evidence of him being apprised of it. We do
18know that Heydrich cites him as authority that the Fuhrer
19has now ordered something other than the territorial
20solutions that now will be sent to the East.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you referring to the letters of invitation that
22Heydrich sent out in the middle of November 1941?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I believe it is in the opening of Heydrich's remarks
24that he cites that he is acting on the authority of
25Hitler.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a reference to the vulmardt which was issued to

.   P-130



 1Heydrich by Goring, do you think, on July 31st 1941?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The fact it includes the Goring authorization with the
 3invitation, I think that is indeed what he is partly
 4referring to. He is bolstering his credentials because he
 5is dealing with people who might not be anxious to take
 6orders from him.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there a dispute among historians as to the significance
 8of the Wannsee conference?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that most of them view it as an implementation
10conference, at a point at which they are now trying to
11initiate the ministerial bureaucracy and in which Heydrich
12is going to visibly assert his leading position in this.
13I do not think it is viewed by many historians now as a
14conference at which a decision was taken. They did not
15debate should we do A or B and then say we will do B.
16They said, "Hitler has ordered this and now how are going
17to implement it? Are we going to include mixed marriage?
18Are we going to include this?" It is an implementation
19conference.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that it has been overrated?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not overrated, because it is a crucial part of bringing in
22the ministerial bureaucracy. I have always seen it that
23way, so I do not consider it, I am not backing up from
24something I think that I have claimed more than.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I correct in describing it as being an
26inter-ministerial conference at State Secretary level?

.   P-138



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the ministers themselves were not brought
 3in; it was just at the lower levels?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Because Heydrich cannot sit there with people higher than
 5his rank. Cabinet ministers would have been parallel with
 6Himmler. If Heydrich is sponsoring it he cannot bring in
 7people higher in his rank in a programme he is trying to
 8assert his leadership. So he would invite the State
 9Secretaries.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     This rather tends to down-play the significance of
11Heydrich was acting on Hitler's orders at this meeting
12then, if he is only able to bring in State Secretaries.
13As you say, he is only relying on his own rank. He is
14only pulling his own rank and he is not pulling Hitler's
15rank on those present?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, at the place he cites Hitler's authority, buried
17against all protocol for him summoning cabinet ministers.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     He cited Hitler's authority just proforma, is that what
19you say?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think it is proforma. It is setting out his
21authority and he has the signed Goring letter which, as
22best we can tell, he drafted and took to Goring for
23signature and that he, likewise, invokes Hitler's
24authority at the conference.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said earlier at any rate in the record of the
26conference (which is not verbatim) there is no explicit

.   P-139



 1reference to killing. There is one inference from which
 2killing can be drawn, am I correct?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are a number of passages in which -- that most
 4people would view as transparent references.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you remember one offhand?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would suggest two. One is that most of the Jews will
 7diminish away under physical labour and the rest ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The hard core will remain?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- will be treated accordingly. The second is Buhle's
10reference that where we should we begin, and he said, "We
11should begin in the General Government because there we do
12not have to worry about Jews capable of work". They do
13not mention in the first place what happens to the
14non-workers. They talk about the workers will diminish,
15the survivors will be handled accordingly, and there is no
16reference to the vast majority, the women and children and
17old people, who obviously are not even going to work.
18Then Buhle's reference, "Well, let us begin this programme
19with the General Government because most of the Jews are
20not even work worthy there any longer", I would interpret
21it as a fairly -- as a reference to the fact that they can
22be killed first of all.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there a passage in the protocol that reads: "The
24remnant that finally survives all this" -- do you remember
25this passage -- "because here it is undoubtedly a question
26of the part with the greatest resistance will have to be

.   P-140



 1treated accordingly"? This is what you were referring to
 2right, right?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Because this remnant representing a natural selection can
 5be regarded as the germ cell of a new Jewish
 6reconstruction", what are the next two words, do you know?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "If released".
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     "If released", that is the way you translated them, is it
 9not?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you are familiar with the fact that people accused you
12of having mistranslated that, people accused you of having
13translated the words "upon release" "as if released"?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the German?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Abfreilasung".
16 MR IRVING:     "Abfreilasung". It is one of those German words
17which you can translate so oder so, as the Germans say,
18one way or the other.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And when you say people, quite specifically, Mr Christie,
20the attorney for Zundel ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Precisely.
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- spent a great deal of time trying to make a great deal
23out that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Trying to embarrass you, I agree. I certainly shall not
25try to embarrass you today with that, Professor. I
26just wanted to draw attention to the fact that we do have

.   P-141



 1problems with words, do we not, in German? I know that
 2there are occasionally from the public ranks behind me
 3when I spend time going into these words, like "vie" and
 4"als" and so on, but it is a problem, is it not, how to
 5translate words with the right flavour?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are many areas where we could have disputes.
 7I think the context here does not leave a whole lot of
 8doubt in this case.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not possible, and have you in fact done it, to
10either interview those who were at the Wannsee conference
11or to read the interrogations of them which were conducted
12by the Allies after the war, people Stuckart and
13Kritzinger? Have you read the interrogations when they
14were questioned about their recollections of that and
15other conferences?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I have not read those systematically. I have seen
17excerpts of them, I believe, but I have not gone through
18the exercise of tracing all of those.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     For once I have to express my astonishment that, as an
20Holocaust historian, knowing that in the national archives
21in Washington they have verbatim transcripts of the
22questionings of these half dozen or so surviving
23attendees, you did not read what they had to say about
24their recollections?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You are free to express your amazement.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, what did Kritzinger have to say? Can

.   P-142



 1you put that?
 2 MR IRVING:     As a question?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, otherwise ----
 4 MR IRVING:     Can you justify why you did not do so?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, no. He has accepted he did not do so,
 6but that perhaps is only material if there is something
 7really significant he missed by not having consulted what
 8Kritzinger said, whoever Kritzinger may be, I do not know.
 9 MR IRVING:     He was a State Secretary in the Reichschancellory,
10I believe, under Lammers. Is it right -- well, I cannot
11ask him what he has not read, my Lord.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you can.
13 MR IRVING:     Would you not expected to find that they would have
14been questioned about as to whether there was actually
15explicit reference to killing operations in the Wannsee
16conference and that this might have clarified the
17uncertainties from the text?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think I have seen excerpt of the Stuckart one and, in
19general, they are denying that this had much significance.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So all of them denied that there had been any
21discussion explicitly of killing operations?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, as far as I know all of them did.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does that influence your thinking about what
24Wannsee was about?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I think these people were shown the protocol and if,
26of course, their participation there made them more

.   P-143



 1vulnerable legally, and here is one case where I would
 2invoke Mr Irving's practice that we look at oral testimony
 3very carefully, and ask what motive would they have to say
 4less than the full truth, and when I have a written
 5document, on the one hand, and a self-exculpatory
 6testimony post war, on the other hand, I put more weight
 7on the written document.
 8 MR IRVING:     But suppose this self-exculpatory testimony after
 9the war contained references, for example, by a man called
10Gottfried Buhle who attended the subsequent conference on
11March 5th 1942, and he says: "It was disgusting the way
12these SS officers treated the Jews like cattle", and
13referred to forwarding them here and shipping them there,
14"and when we protested, Eichmann's deputy said, 'We are
15the police and we do as we want'", would that be taken as
16self-exculpatory? Would you expect this man also to have
17remembered and testified if there had been decisions on
18killings?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would take that as testimony that, in fact, they talked
20fairly openly about killing at these conferences, and a
21denial of others to the contrary should not be trusted.
22This is a non-self-exculpatory statement with much more
23specificity and would indicate, in fact, that Eichmann's
24indication that there were open in their discussion about
25killing than his euphemism has for their credibility.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, if I am more specific here and say that these

.   P-144



 1interrogations referred only to the brutal nature of the
 2language used by the participants in the uncouth language,
 3but there was still no talk of killing, it was just
 4treating these people like cattle, does this not indicate
 5that probably there was no talk of killing at these
 6meetings, no open talk anyway?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, there is no open talk of that at the second one, at
 8the March 6th. That is all that Buhle is referring to.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     But again neither in the interrogations nor in the records
10of the Wannsee conference, as far as you have seen them,
11have you seen any explicit references to killing only
12references by inference?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Except for Eichmann.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Except for?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Eichmann is a participant and he ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     What he said in Israel in 1963?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. Or 1960/61.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     '61. My Lord, do you wish to ask further questions about
19Wannsee?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, thank you very much.
21 MR IRVING:     You referred to Hermann Goring's authorization to
22Heydrich dated July 31st, 1941. One very brief question
23on that: was it intended or taken by either party as
24being a blank cheque to kill?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe it was intended as a kind of authorization for a
26feasibility study, that what it says is, "Please study the

.   P-145



 1question of"----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of what?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --"the fate of the Jews in the rest of Europe". It does
 4not say killing, it says a total, you know, examine the
 5possibility of a total solution for the Jews in Europe.
 6Deal with, the second sentence, I believe, is to deal with
 7the agencies whose jurisdiction is affected. The third is
 8to bring back a plan for a Final Solution, both
 9"gesamtlosung" and "endlosung", and my interpretation is
10this is not an order, this is an authorization for
11Heydrich to look into the possibilities of what will they
12do with the rest of the Jews of Europe?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can it be taken just as an extension of the powers
14conferred on Heydrich in January 1939?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My feeling is no, that the very fact they needed a new
16authorization means that we are no longer talking about
17immigration but a new kind of solution that is no longer
18immigration is what is envisaged, otherwise he would not
19need a new authorization.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask to go to page 44 in your expert report, please?
21This is another criticism, I am afraid, of your
22methodology.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page what?
24 MR IRVING:     44 of the Professor's expert report. Two lines
25from the bottom you say: "... unloading the train cars
26some 2,000 Jews were found dead in the train"?

.   P-146



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the figure you quote?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have made the translation yourself?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to the footnote 113 on the
 7following page, 45?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In which you state, no doubt correctly: "A more legible,
10retyped copy of this document contains the figure 200
11rather than 2,000"?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why did you use the larger figure rather than the smaller
14figure?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Because it was the original document. The other one says
16"Abschrift" and I use the original rather than copy if
17I have both of them.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why do you, therefore, state that a more legible retyped
19copy contains the figure 200 rather than 2,000?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was the figure illegible in the original?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The original is clearly 2,000. It is just a hard document
22to read because the photostat quality is less. The
23retyped copy is a clear one to read but in neither ----
24 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship has it.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- is there any doubt about ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do I? Well, we can actually look at it for

.   P-147



 1ourselves.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Everybody should look at it. It is page 103
 3to -- it is the Westerman report, I think, of 14th
 4September 1942 -- 105 of L1.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And this is the original, not the Abschrift?
 6Whereabouts?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That I cannot -- your Lordship will need the
 8Professor's report. I can barely read the wretched thing.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it is not legible?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, the report itself is very difficult to read in this
11edition and in terms of whether it is, you know, what the
12number is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think I have found it in it. I think
14it says 1,000. It is the third paragraph on page 105. It
15looks to me like 1,000 Juden.
16 MR IRVING:     How many spaces does it have? Is it enough spaces
17for ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has plenty of spaces to be 1,000.
19 MR IRVING:     Four digits then?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, four digits.
21 MR IRVING:     In that case I will accept that 2,000 is probably
22correct.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can have a look at it, if you want to,
24Mr Irving. I may have the wrong bit.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It will come near the end.
26 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think it is the wrong paragraph. I am

.   P-148



 1sorry. I think it is the last paragraph up from the
 2bottom of the last page and I think it is the third line
 3and I can read it very clearly. 5,000 "Juden tot" -- it
 4is five words in from the right-hand margin is the word
 5"tot" and 2,000.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     How did that figure of 2,000 dead on a transport of
 8that size compare with the average for journeys like
 9this? Was the average, am I right in saying, about 20 to
1025 per cent?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is an extraordinarily high one, but when one looks at
12the surrounding documents of the Westerman report, one
13realizes what had happened, that they -- in these previous
14reports that they had march people from surrounding towns
15in August, and a very hot August, for three or four days,
16left them in a collection centre for several days -- these
17people had not eaten or drunk for nearly a week -- were
18then crammed into cars in which they had not nearly enough
19room. So instead of the usual 100 to 120, they were
20packed in even further, so that you have in a hot summer
21in suffocating conditions packed totally full of people
22who have not eaten or drunk for a long time, being shipped
23in which the guards say they fired off all of their
24ammunition into the cars. This is not a normal transport
25and, thus, I concluded that the 2,000 number is not, in
26fact, unrealistic, given what we know about the nature of

.   P-149



 1this transport, that it was not a normal transport.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which would have happened to the 2,000 bodies when they
 3arrived at Belzec?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They would have been a logistical problem. You would have
 5had -- they do not walk out of the trains, so you have to
 6get people to carry them from the ramp to the pits.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there they would have been buried or cremated or
 8disposed of?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At this stage they would have been buried. They were not
10cremating yet at Belzec.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And lots of people would have seen this going on,
12presumably?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The people inside the camp. The train cars were brought
14into the camp in the ramp ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     There would have been lots of eyewitnesses, in other
16words, of 2,000 bodies been buried in Belzec?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, they were burying much more than that, in my opinion
18because ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking about these 2,000.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They would have seen these 2,000 being ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that would have remained in the memories of very many
22of these eyewitnesses?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the railway line runs into the camp,
24does it? There is a spur?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The main line runs through and then I believe they pulled
26off on a ramp which, in effect, is fenced in, a siding, so

.   P-150



 1this would not have been at the central train station,
 2this would have been somewhat off, though the Belzec camp
 3lies very close to the train tracks there.
 4 MR IRVING:     The reason I am saying this is, quite clearly, as
 5you say, it is a logistical problem, it is a human
 6problem. You have 2,000 corpses being carried into a camp
 7in which there are living people, there are guards, there
 8are eyewitnesses, there are prisoners. They are being
 9buried, they are being disposed of. It is an horrific
10problem, it is an atrocity, there is no question of that,
11and there are eyewitnesses to it?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If one is gassing 5,000 people a day, an extra 2,000
13bodies in the train cars is not going to be a memorable
14experience. They are seeing more corpses than that every
15day, day after day, week after week, month after month.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I take you now to page 46, paragraph 5.3.14?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Here you say that the documentary evidence of the killing
19at Belzec and Treblinka is scant. Have I got it right?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The scant surviving documentation concerning the purpose
21of Sobibor.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do we have documentary evidence about Belzec and
25Treblinka, about the gassing?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, about the kinds of people, this is a section that is

.   P-151



 1still dealing with people being sent there who are not
 2sent there to do work and who do not reappear. This is
 3not yet the section in which I say how do we find out what
 4the documents do not tell us and that is how they were
 5killed.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you now to page 48, paragraph 5.4.1? Here we
 7have the talk about the pestilential smell from all the
 8rotting bodies caused by the inadequate burial of the
 9Jews. "No contemporary document specifically states how
10the Jews sent to these three camp were killed". We have
11the same kind of documentary problem again, do we not?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are dealing with something -- yes, as I have said, that
13they do not have a document, we do not have a document
14from Operation Reinhardt that specifies their being killed
15in gas chambers.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So how do we know then? Eyewitnesses?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is what we then turn to, yes. At the beginning
18I said there are numbers of kinds of evidence. Eyewitness
19is one category among a number.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You very honestly state in the same paragraph towards the
21end: "As in any body of eyewitness testimonies, there are
22errors and contradictions as well as both exaggerations
23and apologetic obfuscation and minimisation"?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, the whole sorry of these three camps
26which I am not challenging -- I am only challenging the

.   P-152



 1scale of the operations -- the whole story is rather
 2hedged in uncertainty and lack of the kind of documentary
 3evidence we have for the killings that went on on the
 4Eastern Front.
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is evidence of a different quality. The convergence of
 6testimony I think establishes beyond any reasonable doubt
 7what took place in those camps.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The convergence of testimony, as I am beginning to
 9believe, is a phrase that people take refuge in when there
10is no testimony and little evidence?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I believe it is a very useful concept that we deal
12with a totality of evidence, and that if one were to argue
13that we cannot use eyewitness testimony and had to let out
14every criminal in prison on that ground, we would have a
15fairly chaotic society.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you would agree that there is are different qualities
17of eye witness testimony; there is eyewitness testimony
18gained from somebody who saw something this afternoon,
19reports this afternoon what he saw this morning or
20yesterday evening, but eyewitness testimony recalled 30
21years later in a West German court is liable to be
22somewhat more shaky?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is liable to have less specificity. My feeling is if
24somebody had spent six months or 12 months in a death
25camp, he does not forget the existence of gas chambers.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can I just go back to something

.   P-153



 1you said a while ago which was that you were not
 2challenging -- I am just picking up your quote.
 3 MR IRVING:     This is quite right, my Lord. I am not challenging
 4the nature of these three camps.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are not challenging that?
 6 MR IRVING:     As killing centres.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you do not have to put it quite like
 8that, but you are challenging the scale of operations?
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand that completely. But at
11paragraph 5.4.1 what Professor Browning is dealing with is
12the way in which Jews were killed. I just wanted to have
13clear from you, you do accept that gas was used to kill
14Jews at all these three camps, as I recall; is that
15correct?
16 MR IRVING:     I think it is immaterial what way they were killed
17or the way I accept they were killed at these three camps.
18There is a lot of debate about it. But in order to keep
19this trial far shorter than it could be if we really
20wanted to challenge everything in it or debate everything
21in it ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if that is right, you need not bother
23with paragraph 5.4.1 because that is where Professor
24Browning says that they were basically killed in gas
25chambers at those three camps ----
26 MR IRVING:     It goes to the whole problem of ---- no.

.   P-154



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and, as I understand it, you are not
 2challenging that.
 3 MR IRVING:     --- reliability of eyewitnesses. We have now
 4established since that concession or statement by me -- I
 5hate to say "concession" because it implies that ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that, yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     --- we have now established since that once again
 8it is the eyewitnesses that we are relying upon for this,
 9and I am using this as a way of undermining the
10credibility of eyewitnesses or eyewitness evidence as a
11general source. We are later on coming to quite an
12important eyewitness who is a man called Gerstein who
13I shall spend a few minutes assailing the credibility of.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does Gerstein deal with gassing at Belzec,
15Sobibor or Treblinka?
16 MR IRVING:     Indeed, yes. He claims to be an eyewitness and he
17introduced -- Your Lordship will remember the pretrial
18hearing on November 4th where we learned that Professor
19Browning had desired to incorporate subsequent material
20relating to one particular man.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. All I am getting at this is -- I am
22sorry to interrupt you because I want to keep the
23interruptions to a minimum -- if you are accepting that
24gas chambers were used to kill Jews at these three camps,
25in a sense, there is not terribly much to be gained by
26challenging the credibility of Mr Gerstein who says that.

.   P-155



 1Is that unfair?
 2 MR IRVING:     It is a general attack on eyewitness evidence which
 3is important for the main plank of my case which is
 4Auschwitz where we have established, I think ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
 6 MR IRVING:     --- from Professor van Pelt that the only evidence
 7one can really rely on is the eyewitness evidence.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you are using Gerstein as a sort of
 9example of the fallibility?
10 MR IRVING:     Rather like Rommel, I am coming round from the rear
11and attacking am attacking the eyewitnesses.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
13 MR IRVING:     It is an indirect attack. (To the witness): One
14of the eyewitnesses that you rely on is, of course,
15Eichmann. He saw, he visited, some of these camps, did he
16not?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. We have talked a bit about his reliability. Does he
19ever have a tendency to exaggerate, do you think?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Much less than others and I think sometimes he probably
21understates, but, in general, his memory of sequence of
22events and things seems to be better than most witnesses.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he describe once visiting a scene of executions and
24seeing blood spurting from the ground like in geysers?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and then when we have the -- when you have lots of
26bodies like that, I believe that coming up of blood was

.   P-156



 1testified to by others as well.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he once testify or write in his papers -- in fact, in
 3my collection of papers too -- did he write that he got so
 4close to one shooting that bits of babies' brain were
 5splattered across his nice leather coat?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He complained that at Minsk that happened and, of
 7course ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that credible in your view?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have written on police battalion 101 where the men came
10routinely with their uniform saturated in blood. When you
11shoot people at point blank range, you get bloody.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Eichmann, of course, testified that he was told there was
13a Hitler order, and perhaps we ought to ask your views on
14that.
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He consistently says that he learns from Heydrich, so this
16is second-hand, that he learns from Heydrich that Hitler
17has issued the order for the physical annihilation of the
18Jews of Europe.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it second-hand or third-hand or fourth-hand? If Hitler
20has Himmler who has told Heydrich or Himmler has told
21Muller who has told Heydrich or Himmler has told Heydrich
22who has told Muller?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We only know that it goes from -- all we know is what he
24says and that is that Hitler -- that Heydrich tells him
25Hitler has ordered. Heydrich does not give details of
26what may or may not have intervened.

.   P-157



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     What importance do you attach to that particular piece of
 2evidence?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He says that from beginning to end, and I think that he is
 4probably accurately relating a meeting with Heydrich in
 5which this issue was clarified.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     The end was, presumably, 1963 when he was hanged, and when
 7was the beginning in the 1950s, late 1950s?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Certainly from the ----
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Sassen papers?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure what he says in the Sassen papers except
11I think it must be included because Aschenal wrote a bunch
12of footnotes saying that the person he was publishing was
13mistaken on this -- a strange thing for the editor to do.
14So I believe that -- sometimes I do not remember exactly
15which one says which, but my recollection is that the
16published Adolf Eichmann which based on some Sassen papers
17does stipulate that he was told there was a Hitler order.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I secured the publication of those actually. I am the one
19who found a publisher because I thought they needed a
20publication, a publisher. I insisted that they should be
21published in their original form because they did contain
22these very odd passages. But can you see any reason why
23Adolf Eichmann in the 1950s, living in the underground in
24Argentina, should have wanted to state in his writings
25that he remembered a Fuhrer order in that way? Can you
26think of any reason why should he have written that?

.   P-158



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think he was absolutely convinced there was an order,
 2that he was carrying out state policy.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, would the existence of a Fuhrer order in his mind
 4have let him off the hook? "I was only acting on orders",
 5would that have let Eichmann off the hook in his own mind
 6if there was a Fuhrer order?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would have been a defence after being arrested, but if
 8he says it before that, I think it is a reflection of his
 9feeling that he had been carrying out a very major Hitler
10order.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it evident from these papers that he wrote or dictated
12to the journalist, Sassen, while in the underground in
13Argentina while hiding that he was aware that there was a
14worldwide hue and cry searching for him?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know how much he was aware of. It is very
16strange that the man who, obviously, had fled to Argentina
17because he knew he was hunted would talk to a journalist.
18What sort of self-destruction wish he had, I do not know,
19but it was very strange behaviour for someone, but
20certainly not an indication that he would then take the
21opportunity to lie.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you not agree that it is possible that he was either
23consciously or unconsciously creating an alibi for
24himself, rehearsing the alibi he would used when he was
25caught or if he was caught?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not think he would be increasing his chances of

.   P-159



 1getting caught by trying to establish an alibi when if you
 2kept your mouth shut he would not be caught in the first
 3place.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not evident that Sassen had a commercial interest in
 5marketing these papers and that he sold them to a major
 6New York magazine?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He did sell them to Life magazine. What his motive was
 8earlier, I do not know.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in fact, we do not know whether Eichmann actually made
10that confession or whether it was incorporated by the
11journalist?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, we do have -- the Israelis have the transcripts of
13the tapes in which he made handwritten notations, and
14I would have to look at those to find if there was a huge
15discrepancy. I think the one discrepancy in the Life
16magazine report, as opposed to what he consistently says
17in his other testimony, is that they portray his visit to
18Belzec where he talks about there is a camp in a sense
19under construction, I think the Life magazine account
20talks of this being already in operation. My guess is
21that that is a Sassen invention to make it more spiffy.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who was Kurt Gerstein?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Kurt Gerstein was a covert anti-Nazi in the SS who was in
24the hygienic department.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What makes you suggest that he was a covert anti-Nazi?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He had joined and then been expelled from the Nazi Party

.   P-160



 1and then, at least in his own account, got back into the
 2SS because he had heard of the euthanasia programme and he
 3wanted to find out more.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say "in his own account", when was his account written
 5to which you are referring?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The accounts that he gave that he writes are dated in late
 7April and early May 1945. He also had conversations with
 8others that have been related to us later, would be his
 9statements at a time earlier than 1945.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be to his advantage after World War II to
11establish or to maintain the position that he had been a
12covert anti-Nazi?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Certainly, lots of people claimed that they were
14anti-Nazis who were not, and the question then is you have
15to look, is this a bona fide claim or not? Certainly,
16lots of people were claiming that, and that would be one
17question you would have to put to the evidence. If you
18have other people such as Bishop Dalias(?) who said
19Gerstein came to him in 1942 or '43 and corroborates his
20anti-Nazi stance, then you would lend more credibility to
21the 1945 statement as opposed to someone who had been
22killing Jews over the years and then suddenly poses as an
23anti-Nazi in 1945.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was he tried?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Gerstein? He was arrested and sent to a French prison
26where he died, and the French prison ruled it as suicide.

.   P-161



 1Some have voiced suspicion that he was killed by fellow
 2prisoners as a traitor.
 3 MR IRVING:     Kurt Gerstein is used or relied upon as an
 4important eyewitness, or was relied upon as an important
 5eyewitness, for various camps or killing operations. Is
 6that right?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is relied upon, as far as I know, for Belzec and
 8Treblinka.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     For Belzec and Treblinka, because he visited these camps?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the visits to the camps, yes, that he says he
11visited these camps and I am sure we will get into why
12I credit that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was his actual position in the SS?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One of the things he was doing was delivering Zyklon-B to
15places for fumigation.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was head of the SS pest control office, can we say,
17their fumigation or hygiene department?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Their fumigation department, I think we can say that, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I mean in the non-homicidal sense ----
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- a straightforward meaning of the word. So he visited
22these camps. Was he delivering anything to these camps?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     According to his account, he brought out Zyklon-B to
24Lublin to fumigate the clothing that was there and then
25went on to Belzec and Treblinka, and that in his account
26at Belzec, I think it is, he buries the rest of the

.   P-162



 1Zyklon-B and does not deliver that to the camp.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You talk about "in his account". How many accounts were
 3written by Mr Gerstein, to your knowledge?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think there are a number of drafts and notes, but, in
 5general, in terms of the finished product, we have the
 6French version and the German version and maybe even two
 7French versions, but how many -- I have not seen the
 8actual notes. I do not know how many drafts that we might
 9count as a version, but ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no question as to the authenticity. He was the
11author of these ----
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not believe that has been challenged.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the work of a French academic called
14Henry Rocques? R-O-C-Q-U-E-S, I think it is.
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not read his work. I have heard the name.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have heard the name. Did he write a dissertation on
17the various reports by Kurt Gerstein in order to obtain a
18PhD?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe so -- I have heard that.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he awarded a doctorate on the basis of these,
21initially?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe initially.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of his PhD thesis. Did he keep his
24doctorate?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe not.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the problem?

.   P-163



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think somebody said the document did not deserve a PhD
 2and it was looked into and they withdrew it.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the university decided to knuckle under pressure, am
 4I right?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe you could say that the university discovered
 6somebody had let through a very sloppy dissertation and
 7decided that they had better get their house in order.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do these things happen often? Are people often stripped
 9of their doctorates?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not very often.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it happen very often in France?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it happen largely to revisionist historians?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I know of this case. I do not know of any other.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Faurisson, are you familiar with the case?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not believe he has had his dissertation withdrawn.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he have his Professorship removed from him?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe he is suspended from teaching but I do not know
19that he had the position terminated. I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     To get back to Gerstein, is it right that Henry Rock, in
21writing his dissertation discovered no fewer than seven
22different versions of the Gerstein report?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot answer that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he obtained also access in the French police
25files to all the private letters that Gerstein had
26written?

.   P-164



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That I do not know.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not that either. Is it not surprising that your Holocaust
 3historian, you have not read his PhD dissertation which
 4relies on these papers?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I have not seen the PhD dissertation, and it is not
 6in circulation that I know of.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Like most PhD dissertations, it can be obtained from the
 8university, can it not?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If it has been withdrawn, I do not know.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am not going to stop you, but
11this is all slightly Alice in Wonderland, is it not? For
12the reason we went through before, you accept there were
13gas chambers so criticising Gerstein for saying there were
14is slightly limited value, I think. Do not take it too
15slowly.
16 MR IRVING:     A well deserved reprimand, my Lord.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a reprimand.
18 MR IRVING:     Can I take you to page 50 of your report, please?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I want you to look at the second version of page 50, which
21contains the bold type on it. Your Lordship said in
22November you would interleave the pages?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have done that and I have crossed out
24the superseded one.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My account does not have bold type.
26 MR IRVING:     It does not have bold type?

.   P-165



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the new version you interpolated certain sentences.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I can get my own version and I believe I may be able to
 4use that.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I shall be another half hour at most.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not hurry. I really mean that. I am not
 7seeking to hurry you, just to guide you to the areas which
 8I think are of greater significance.
 9 MR IRVING:     Is it fair to say that, after you wrote your report
10initially, you realized that you had omitted, either
11accidentally or wilfully, certain passages which, if
12included, would have cast grave doubt on the reliability
13of this man as a witness?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What happened is that I in fact sent a draft, mistakenly
15you were sent what was not my final report, and, when
16I got back, it was clear that things that I had put in
17were not included. One of the things was that I was able
18to look at both the French and the German reports and the
19French has some exaggerations not included in the German,
20and I then amended mine and I emphasised further the
21elements ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do urge you, before you continue, to consider your
23replies carefully, because the tenor of each of these
24interpolations is very much material that has been
25previously left out or not included which, if left in,
26would have totally destroyed the veracity of this report

.   P-166



 1or certainly tended to undermine it. In other words, it
 2all tends the same way. It is not random omissions. It
 3is all that kind of document, right? That kind of
 4omission?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The ones that were added were the cases that highlighted
 6exaggerations in Gerstein, that on reflection I felt
 7should go in.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     According to Gerstein, I am reading from the middle of
 9paragraph 5.4.1.3, new version, this is the sentence which
10you omitted but have now put in: "According to Gerstein
11Globocnik also claimed with great exaggeration Belzec
12Treblinka and Sobibore respectively 15,000, 25,000 and
1320,000 Jews were killed daily with diesel exhaust gas".
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you consider those figures to be reliable?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I think they are not reliable at all.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Rather lower down that same paragraph, we have a 45 wagon
18transport arriving from Woolf with 6,700 Jews, of whom
191,450 were already dead. That is about the same kind of
20proportion, is it not, 20 per cent?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is similar to the Versterman report and, given the
22conditions under which the Galetian transports were
23coming, I do not consider that to be an exaggeration or,
24on the face of it, outrageous.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     This was in your original report. What would have
26happened to those 1,450 corpses? Would they have been

.   P-167



 1dragged into the camp and disposed of?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I can only speculate, but my guess would be that after the
 3entire operation was over they would then bring the dead
 4bodies from the transports. That would have been the last
 5clean up item when they had finished liquidating the
 6transport.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now we have, "The Jews were forced to undress who arrived
 8on this transport", and then comes a parenthesis that you
 9originally left out, "the piles of shoes were allegedly 25
10metres high". Is that from the Gerstein report?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is from Gerstein report.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     25 metres is, what, 80 feet?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, it would be.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     About as tall as that building out there, probably?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know, but it clearly is an exaggeration.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     It clearly is an exaggeration, but you left it out because
17of space reasons, or was there some other reason why it
18got left out?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It was not a matter of left out, it is a decision of
20putting something in. I had said in the original working
21draft that there were many exaggerations and I felt we had
22better be specific about what they were.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then over the page, my Lord, page 51 of the new version,
24with bold face on the third line, you say: "Approximately
25750 Jews were driven into each of four gas chambers,
26measuring 5 metres by 5 metres each." Is that a

.   P-168



 1reasonable kind of estimate of the number of people? Why
 2did you leave out the phrase "measuring by 5 by 5 metres
 3each or apiece"?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As I said, it was question of putting it in when I felt
 5I had to be more specific about what I meant in terms of
 6Gerstein's exaggerations.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be perverse to believe that, if that measurement,
 8the dimensions had been left in, that would have tended to
 9undermine the credibility of that sentence?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, given that later I have 200 Jews per gas chamber and
11in another the 750 figure was already considerably out of
12line with other stuff that I put, I make clear in this
13from beginning to end that there are exaggerations and
14that Gerstein does exaggerate.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But he does not exaggerate just on an amateur scale, does
16he? He exaggerates on a Munchhausen scale.
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are some extraordinary exaggerations, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to the next paragraph, 5.4.1.4?
19This is one you left in, I believe?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This was there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The following day Gerstein drove to Treblinka where the
22gassing facilities were larger and he saw, you quote,
23veritable mounds of clothing and underwear 115 to 130 feet
24high".
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, which I would suggest was that I was putting in
26already in the first draft considerable materials that

.   P-169



 1were demonstrating my conclusion that much of his report
 2was exaggerated. I added further material. Certainly in
 3the working draft there was no attempt to hide that fact.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But would you agree ----
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You suggest that there was some sort of cover up or
 6sinister attempt to sanitize Gerstein, I do not think that
 7is borne out by looking at either first and second draft.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not trying to suggest that you tried to cover up or
 9sanitize, but merely to make passages you wanted to rely
10on seem more plausible. I put it to you that, if you had
11left these passages in, it would have totally demolished
12the veracity of this witness, and no responsible historian
13would have dreamed of using Gerstein as a source.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are in, and I use him, and others have used him, and
15we use him with caution.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are in now, of course, because you subsequently
17amended your report to include them.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, "amend" is not the right word. As I have said, it
19was a mistake by Mishcon de Reya to have turned over what
20was not the final draft.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, in your first draft?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Do you write one book in one sitting, or do you revise
23things as you go, and do you reflect about what you are
24writing? I have things in a number of drafts.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I quote Mr Rampton and say you are not allowed to ask me
26questions. I am the one who asks the questions.

.   P-170



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Then let me phrase it this way. I write in many drafts.
 2I would expect any careful author would write a number of
 3drafts, the second and third drafts would not be
 4identical, or one would not write numerous drafts.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Out of your own mouth, Professor, you are condemning
 6yourself. That implies that in your first draft you chose
 7to leave all these passages out, and only later did you
 8decide to put them back in again for whatever reason.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is not a matter of having decided to leave out, I was
10constructing it. I said in the initial draft there were
11many exaggerations. Looking at it, I said let us spell
12that out more clearly.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it not indicate in fact, if you read these monstrous
14exaggerations by Gerstein, that he was a man with a
15severely disordered mind, which finally crashed when he
16committed suicide in prison?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think he was a man that was utter traumatised and
18unstable.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In other words, totally unreliable and undependable
20and it was responsible to base an important piece of
21history just on the eyewitness testimony of this man
22because -- is there any other eyewitness testimony of
23equal colour?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Two things wrong. To say he is unstable is not identical
25to saying unreliable. To say that it is the only
26testimony is false because we have lots of other

.   P-171



 1testimony.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you referring to Pfannenstiel?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We certainly are.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you referring to what Gerstein is alleged to have said
 5to a Swedish diplomat?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     When did this conversation with a Swedish diplomat take
 8place?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     August 21, 22, coming back from Warsaw.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In 1942?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     What date is the Swedish diplomatic memorandum on that
13conversation? Was it contemporary or was it written years
14later?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The one that is in the file of the Swedish Foreign Office
16was written after the war.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Three years later. Was there any opportunity for that
18Swedish Foreign Office gentlemen to have cross-pollinated
19his knowledge with what he had read in the Allied and
20Swedish newspapers about what had been discovered?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have no idea on that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, but you agree that, if this Swedish diplomat had
23written a contemporary memorandum dated August 1942, that
24would have very strong evidentiary value?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would have been much stronger.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Something written after the war in 1945, for various

.   P-172



 1reasons, is less dependable?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is evidence of less strength than one written at the
 3time.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why did this man Pfannenstiel accompany Gerstein on his
 5visits to these extermination camps?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know why he went.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was his position?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He was a Professor.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he a Professor at the Institute of Hygiene in Berlin?
10Yes, not in Berlin, Mabuch on the Lan.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And why did he accompany Gerstein?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was that the kind of position where a Professor would
14accompany an SS officer in connection with controlling
15epidemics?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It could well be that he would be invited along as an
17expert or someone who wanted to learn, or that the SS was
18trying to bring in, I do not know. There are a number of
19possible explanations.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pfannenstiel, of course, after the war, am I right,
21testified broadly in accordance with what Gerstein had
22stated?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     He confirmed that he had seen these things happening?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What did Gerstein testify that he had seen happening in

.   P-173



 1two or three sentences? He had seen gassings?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Gerstein testified that he went to both Belzec and
 3Treblinka and saw gassings at each. I am not sure -- yes,
 4I think he said he saw them at each. Pfannenstiel said
 5that he only went to Belzec, that he did not go to
 6Treblinka, it could well be that Gerstein went on and he
 7did not. Pfannenstiel only confirms being with Gerstein
 8in Belzec and seeing the Belzec gassing.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Take these two people separately. Gerstein went to these
10two camps, carrying with him a hundred kilograms of Zyklon
11or some fumigating agent and his story is that, after he
12had delivered the goods, which was for fumigation of
13clothing -- and he himself states that am I right?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     That the local SS people then gave him a treat and let him
16watch a gassing on the following day. Is that plausible
17in your view?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I think they said they did some of the work in
19Lublin and then they took him up, and of course, by his
20account, he had gotten into the SS to find out what he
21could. So he would have taken this opportunity.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any reason why they should have shown him
23something that was top secret?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To people in Lublin this was not top secret, and he was a
25member of the SS.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What about Pfannenstiel? Why should they have shown to

.   P-174



 1this Professor of Hygiene one of the most secret and
 2deadly operations going on, namely the Final Solution and
 3operation? Why should they have done that?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know why they should have done that.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you think of any reason why Pfannenstiel, testifying
 6in a West German court after the war, would have said that
 7he had seen these things?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It led to a lot more interrogations. If he had denied it
 9entirely, I think nothing would have happened, and, when
10he said this, nothing happened either, because witnessing
11it was not committing a crime.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are absolutely right. Witnessing was not committing a
13crime and Mr Gerstein, was he still alive at that time?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was dead. So, by saying that Gerstein had witnessed it
16and was involved bringing Zyklon and so on, that did not
17hurt Gerstein either, did it?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Gerstein was dead.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     There was no skin off Pfannenstiel's nose to accept
20whatever was put to him?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think it led to a series of interrogations and, if it
22had not happened, he would have said it. He had no reason
23to incriminate, not incriminate but to involve himself in
24supporting Gerstein's account if it had not occurred. To
25me, it would have been much more likely that he would,
26even if it happened, have denied it than vice versa.

.   P-175



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Surely, if he had denied it, then he would have been
 2subjected to even more intensive interrogations until
 3finally he came round. Is that not more likely?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These are German interrogations in the 1950s and, from my
 5looking through a number of court cases, the notion that
 6he would have been subjected to ongoing pressures and
 7whatever, I see no evidence of that in the Belzec trial or
 8other trials of this sort.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Gerstein has however been pretty comprehensively
10discredited as an eyewitness, has he not?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Gerstein, as I think most would agree, was a very
12traumatized and, they decided, unstable individual, but
13what he witnessed, in terms of having been in Belzec, that
14he knows the names of several of these people, he gets
15them slightly wrong but close enough, whatever, he could
16have come up with those names in his cell in 1945 when the
17Allies had absolutely no knowledge of the names of the
18personnel in these camps. How could he have known that
19there were Galetian transports in August? This was not
20knowledge in 1945. He knows a number of things that could
21not have been known if he had not been there. In that
22case, in those areas, I think one can say that this is a
23witness that is telling what he saw, even if it is in a
24highly excited and exaggerated mode.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So his visit is plausible but one is entitled to
26disbelieve large parts of what he claims to have seen?

.   P-176



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If this was the only witness for all of Operation
 2Reinhardt, we would say that this is a very contested
 3one. What he did say in fact, there is very good
 4plausibility in the details of which he tells us about
 5some things that he could not have known if he had not
 6been there, and in turn it is confirmed by a number of
 7other witnesses.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it not tell us something about the integrity of
 9historians who have relied so wholeheartedly on Gerstein
10and have suppressed the details which you omitted from
11your original report. I am not pointing a finger at you,
12Professor, I am just talking about a number of other
13historians. I am not going to mention any names.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why does it matter for our purposes, what
15other historians may have made of Gerstein? I do not
16understand.
17 MR IRVING:     It does not matter at all.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it really does if one thinks
19about it.
20 MR IRVING:     It does not, no. The point which I am finally
21going to develop is that, if an eyewitness like Gerstein
22can be discredited so largely through the good fortune of
23our having access to his French police records and other
24materials, is it not likely that other eyewitnesses will
25turn out also to be made of straw to a greater or lesser
26degree, for one reason or another?

.   P-177



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not agree. I think that he is confirmed in his
 2essentials, and the question before us here was how did
 3the killing at these camps take place? And he is one of a
 4number of witnesses that say they take place in gas
 5chambers. In so far as he can come up with the names of
 6the people that were there, the transports from the
 7particular region that were arriving at Belzec at that
 8time, I think this is very essential for saying this part
 9of his testimony is reliable. I do not consider that
10having been destroyed in any way, and I think there are a
11large number of other witnesses that are also believable
12that tell the same story.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just dealing with Gerstein at this moment, I do not have
14to destroy all the eyewitnesses. I just want to tackle
15the principal ones. If he was who he said he was and he
16had the task of delivering these fumigation supplies, the
17Zyklon, to those camps, then he would know the people who
18were operating whatever they were operating, would know
19the names. This does not necessarily presuppose that all
20the rest of his story is true, or any of the rest of his
21story is true.
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We know that transports from the Volf went there at this
23time. This was the place from where they were coming. We
24know that Hockenholt was the man who ran the gas chambers,
25that Oberhauser was Wirt's assistant, that he could have
26come into this information without having visited Belzec.

.   P-178



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     How did he know that Hockenholt ran the gas chambers? Is
 2this another eyewitness?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the other eyewitnesses, but people from whom
 4Gerstein could never possibly have heard of and known of
 5when he was giving this testimony.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask a question at this stage,
 7Mr Irving, really because it might suggest to you that
 8there may be one or two questions you would want to ask as
 9a follow up? It is really this. Given that there is a
10live issue about gassing at Auschwitz, does the evidence
11about what was happening at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka
12have an impact on the issue in relation to Auschwitz? Do
13you follow my question?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the sense that it has the impact that, if the Operation
15Reinhardt camps are basically killing the bulk of Polish
16Jewry, then the bit provides the historical context for
17weighing, is Auschwitz a similar camp for killing Jews
18brought from other parts of Europe? So they are
19interrelated if, in that sense, the camps are dividing up
20geographical areas from which they receive people. We
21know, I do not know if he does concede but it seems to be,
22that the people sent to these camps died in one way or
23another, and at least the eyewitness testimony tells us
24how that was done. That would contribute to the
25credibility of those that say Auschwitz was a similar camp
26as part of a similar programme.

.   P-179



 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, may I remind you, of course, that I do not
 2challenge that there gassings at Auschwitz on some scale?
 3It is the scale that we very much challenge.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, I do not want to quote him without
 5his permission, as it were, but I imagine, Professor
 6Browning, it is implicit in the answer he has just given,
 7would say that you learn something about the scale of the
 8gassing at Auschwitz from what was happening at these
 9other death camps.
10 MR IRVING:     With respect, my Lord, I think not.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Am I misrepresenting you?
12 MR IRVING:     I am just alarmed at the notion of building such a
13major part of World War II history just on the testimony
14of half a dozen eye witnesses as far as Auschwitz is
15concerned.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know where that comes from. It is the
17second time we have had that today. It is built on a mass
18of evidence, documentary, archeological, eyewitness,
19goodness knows what, all of which, as Professor van Pelt
20puts it, converged to the same conclusion.
21 MR IRVING:     The transcript will show what position we reached.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will obviously have to deal with the
23totality of the evidence, but it had gone through my mind,
24this thought, and I therefore thought it right to put it
25to Professor Browning, because it seems to me to be an
26argument for the existence of gassing on a substantial

.   P-180



 1scale at Auschwitz. You have heard the answer that
 2Professor Browning has given to me. It is a matter for
 3you whether you want to pursue it. I appreciate you do
 4not accept it.
 5 MR IRVING:     I can only ask the supplementary question, which is
 6does that answer depend entirely on eyewitness evidence,
 7or is there any documentary basis whatsoever for what you
 8have just told his Lordship?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have documentary evidence for gassing in Semlin and
10Chelmno and the uses of the gas van. We have only
11eyewitness testimony for the existence of gas chambers in
12the three Operation Reinhardt camps.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is no documentary evidence relating to scale
14then?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not to scale, to mode of killing. What we do have is
16documentary evidence concerning the emptying of Poland of
17Jews to these three camps, which are teeny little villages
18which do not accommodate one and a half million people.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have been through part of that argument sometime ago
20when I mentioned the English village of Aldershot, to
21which large numbers of English people went during World
22War II.
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If the population of Aldershot had been a group of people
24already deprived of their rights and property, if they had
25been rounded up with all of the brutality that left bodies
26lying all the way to the train station, and if they had

.   P-181



 1been sent there and never came back, and if a hundred
 2witnesses from Aldershot said they had been gassed, we
 3would, I think, say something happened at Aldershot.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Absolutely right. We do not have 100 witnesses in these
 5cases, do we? We have apparently, in the case of
 6Auschwitz, about which Mr Rampton is concerned, tens of
 7thousands of survivors, but only five or six have been
 8questioned on this matter so far as we know from these
 9proceedings before us. Anyway, I have no further
10questions. Thank you very much for coming to England,
11Professor Browning.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
13 < Re-examined by Mr Rampton QC.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, if I ran maybe past quarter past 4
15perhaps I would be forgiven?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had thought already that, if needs be, we
17will do that.
18 MR RAMPTON:     We would like to get the Professor off the stand.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that would suit Mr Irving actually,
20and then he will have a free run tomorrow, preparing
21Evans.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I do not have that many questions,
23Professor, but it may take a bit of time because I want
24your help with some documents. Can we start, please, with
25what I call the Browning document file, which is tab 7 of
26L1? I would like you to turn to page 19A. This is a

.   P-182



 1document which by now we all probably can recite in our
 2sleep. There was a lot of cross-examination about it. It
 3is the message from Muller to the Einsatzgruppen of 1st
 4August 1941, I hope, is it?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     19A in a circle. There are about four numbers on
 7the page. You are looking for a handwritten number in a
 8circle in the bottom right hand corner of the page.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, 19A I have.
10 MR RAMPTON:     First of all, can I ask you whether you know how
11long this document has been accessible to scholars?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think the first reference I saw to it was in Gerald
13Fleming, a book published in 1982.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that "Hitler und die Entlosung"?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Second question. I am coming back to the content of it in
17a moment. You see it has the security mark Geheim on it?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I see Geheim.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want you just to have a quick look at some of the other
20documents in this bundle, not for the content but for
21their superscription, if I can call it that. For the
22moment, I have lost my note. Can we turn, please, to page
2338? You will remember the context of these questions. It
24was that Mr Irving was suggesting that Geheim was such a
25low security classification that this document could not
26have a sinister connotation.

.   P-183



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 38 ought to be what I call the Rademacher report,
 3following his visit to Belgrade. Is it?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you tell me, just glancing at the first page, you know
 6it backwards, what is the substance of this document, the
 7first page of it?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is reporting here on the shooting of the male Jews in
 9Serbia. He had been sent down there to deal with what was
10to happen to them and he says there really is not a
11problem concerning the male Jews, they are being shot.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are being shot. He is an official in the Foreign
13Office?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is the so-called Jewish expert in the Foreign Office.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you see that has the mere marking Geheim at the top of
16it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Then can we go to what I think is 40A? It is
1925th October 41. I am going to ask you to do a bit of
20stationery work, if you do not mind, Professor. Just put
21this in the file. There is one for the witness and one
22for the judge (Same handed).
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One for Mr Irving?
24 MR RAMPTON:     One for Mr Irving, yes. This is another of your
25documents, Professor. I say "your documents", documents
26referred to by you. 25th October 1941, from a Dr Wetzler

.   P-184



 1to somebody called Lohse, who is the Reichs Kommissar for
 2the East land. What is this document about?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the one in which he discusses the possibility of
 4sending someone to Riga to construct gassing apparatuses.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is in the fourth line on the first page Vergassungs
 6apparate. Then, if you turn over the page, can you just
 7tell us what the first sentence of the first complete
 8paragraph says?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He says that, given the situation, there are no objections
10if Jews not capable of work are removed by Brock's "little
11helper".
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     His Vergassungsapparate?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Notice then please on the first page the appellation, the
15security?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The security rank is Geheim.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Then, finally, three other documents. Page 91 is a
18document dated 26th March, the year I do not know. 42,
19I guess, is it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to be very pedantic and say
21Wetzler document, 40A, or otherwise we will never find it.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, my Lord?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     40A for Wetzler.
24 MR RAMPTON:     To Lohse?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is a carbon, so they would have had on the original
26stationery the 194 and the blank paper behind just recalls

.   P-185



 1the two they typed in.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got page 91?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think it is the 26th, 26th March 1942.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a letter, I think, from somebody called Rauf.
 5What is this about?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Rauf is the head of the sort of, I guess we could call it
 7the administration of material matters of the
 8Reichssicherheitshauptamt. Included in that is the motor
 9pool, and this I would have to read through to see
10exactly.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Something about Sonderwagon.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is about the Sonderwagon that are prepared by
13them.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. It is about the supply of Sonderwagon?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What are Sonderwagon?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is one of terms they used for gas vans.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I notice again in a box at the top of the first page the
19word Geheim only, please. Then, last but one, page 99A,
20this I hope is a letter or a copy of a letter, I think it
21is a Nuremberg document in fact, from Gantzen Muller to
22Karl Wolff?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This, I think there is no dispute about this, announces
25the starting of the journeys of 5,000 Jews a day from
26Warsaw to Treblinka and twice a week of 5,000 Jews from an

.   P-186



 1unpronounceable Polish word.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Schemeshall.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To Belzec, is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And again the appellation or classification is, is it not,
 6on the front page, Geheim?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is Geheim.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A mere Geheim for that one. Just by way of contrast, we
 9can look at Wolff's reply, which is 99C, 13th August
101942,. This is not a Nuremberg document. This looks like
11a copy of an original, does it not? Have you got 99C?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. We have the initials on this, but it is not clear.
13I am not sure whether this is in the files of the person
14who received it, or the person who sent it I assume this
15is in fact in Wolff's file because that is I think where
16these documents come from.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It may be. The only thing we can see about this is that
18there is no Geheim, still less a Geheimerreichssacher .
19The only thing you can see in the box at the top of the
20page is a Gothic AR. Do you see that?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does this series of documents that we have looked at,
23and I can tell you in the file there are lots of other
24fairly sinister documents which have no security
25classification at all, what does that tell you about the
26classification Geheim as used on documents of this kind?

.   P-187



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That there are many documents referring to the workings of
 2the Final Solution and deportation and killing that do not
 3have a high secrecy rating.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally -- I know this has been laborious -- what is
 5your reaction then to the suggestion that the
 6classification, a mere classification of Geheim, on the
 7Muller order or message to the Einsatzgruppen? It is
 8suggested it is not a document of any importance.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would not be a persuasive document.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, this will be slightly disorderly, not in any sense a
11criticism of Mr Irving, simply because I track his
12cross-examination in my questions to you. Are you
13familiar, I am talking now about numbers, with something
14called the Korherr report of 23rd March 1943?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So as to save us all getting it out, it is noted in some
17detail in Mr Irving's book Hitler's War, in the 1977
18edition, at pages 503 to 4. The numbers it apparently
19gave----
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord we have not raised Korherr report in the
21examination.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but there was an issue about numbers.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It has to do with the cross-examination about
24numbers, scale.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it casts light on that issue, it does not
26matter whether it has been referred to or whether it has

.   P-188



 1not.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It has to do with numbers in the East. I can give
 3you the numbers. Numbers given for people subjected to
 4Sonderbehandlung before it was edited.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you, Mr Rampton, very quickly remind me
 6who Korherr is?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     He was Himmler's statistician. Is that right?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had forgotten that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     He is Dr Rickard Korherr, he is an anorak and he
11crunches numbers for Himmler. Anyhow, the numbers he
12gave, if you remember, I will read them out, are for
13people deported from the eastern provinces subjected to
14Sonderbehandlung 1,274,166; for people in the Warthegau,
15and this is at the 23rd March 1943, 145,301, making a
16grand total of 1,419,467. Now, as at that date, 23rd
17March 1943, do those numbers seem surprising to you?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. If anything, I would have thought they would have
19been slightly higher, because at that point in these
20regions the first sweep through the ghettoes has already
21taken place, so this is a very cautious estimate.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By this date, speaking from your general knowledge of the
23subject and your detailed knowledge, end of March 43,
24roughly speaking, how many people do you think have been
25Sonderbehandelt in the three Reinhardt camps? Roughly.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Roughly. I would say that would be the lower estimate and

.   P-189



 1it might be 100 or 200,000 higher. Basically, the
 2question is how many Polish Jews do we still know are in
 3other places and they are in the work camps in Lublin,
 4there is still 50 to 60,000 in the Warsaw ghetto. They
 5have not liquidated the remnant ghettoes. So, when they
 6made the first sweep, they would take between 70, 80, 90
 7per cent and there would be remaining then in the ghettoes
 8a smaller group that would be left for work. Then the
 9sweep through those ghettoes came in 43. So most of the
10Polish Jewry has been destroyed but there is still a
11segment that has not.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I was going to ask you that as my final question on this
13part of numbers. We saw that Hans Frank estimated between
142 and a half and 3 and a half million Jews or people with
15Jewish connections on 16th September 1941.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it known how many Jews were left in Poland by the end
18of the war?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     First, I should say those who have looked at real
20statistics and not Frank talking off the top of his head
21would not accept the 2.5 to 3.5 in the
22Generalgouvernment. I should say in Poland the pre 1941,
23that is the German share of Generalgouvernment and to the
24West, I believe German demographers who made reports
25thought it was close to 2 million Polish Jews who were
26there. Galicia has another 500,000. Bialystok I believe

.   P-190



 1has 200,000 or 300,000, and then of course the unknown
 2question is just how many managed to flee. And of those
 3who fled were they then killed in White Russia or the
 4Ukraine?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am coming to some fleeing along the line because we had
 6that yesterday in report number 81, I think. What shall we
 7say then? 3 million? We are talking about Warthegau,
 8Generalgouvernment, Bialystok and Galicia in the
 9southeast. Total 3 million? Three and a half?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that the prewar population has been estimated
11about 3.3 million for all of Poland but in terms of the
12Generalgouvernment, Galicia, Bialystok, that would leave
13us I think around 3.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I repeat the question? You are quite right not to
15adopt Frank's figure and to give us what one might call a
16real figure. Has anybody done work to estimate how many
17Jews were left in this area of Europe after the war?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the difficult question because you had a constant
19flow of Jews who survived fleeting from Poland to Germany
20so you always have a moving target.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They flowed westward as well, did they?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     After the war they fled westward. Most of the immigration
23to Palestine came in fact via Germany. Jews returning
24from hiding who came back to Polish towns felt very
25insecure in the atmosphere, where it was feared they would
26be reclaiming their property and this kind of thing, and

.   P-191



 1so they moved out of Poland very quickly.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So population lost figures are not necessarily a very
 3reliable means to an accurate answer?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We get an approximate figure by subtracting the postwar
 5from the prewar to get an approximate number of Polish
 6casualties. So we generally say out of 3.3 million
 7probably 3 million were murdered and 300,000 survived, but
 8those are rough figures.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am only asking for what you Americans call ball
10park figures.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are they worth anything, these ball park
12figures?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I think those are accurate as ball park figures, but
14they could easily be off 100 thousand on either side,
15I would think.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Where the ball park figures are very uncertain is for the
18Soviet Union.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I am afraid I shall need some help from people in
20court. This has to do with three different things that
21arose during your cross-examination, Professor. The first
22thing is to go back, if you will, to 19A in the Browning
23document section of file L1, which is tab 7. Please could
24somebody find the Professor file H1(vii) please? That
25file hunting can stop now because Miss Rogers has done the
26trick with a little file of documents which can go into

.   P-192



 1this section. I would like to start with the Muller
 2message of 1st August 1941, the first sentence of which
 3says something like this, does it not, Professor: Running
 4reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East are
 5to be placed, or will be placed, before the Fuhrer from
 6here"?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am sorry about my translation. That is roughly
 9what it says, is it not? Then can you have a look,
10please, at what I think is probably the first of the
11documents in that little clip, which is the situation
12report number 80 dated 11th September 1941?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In English?
14 MR RAMPTON:     This is an English translation. The German is
15there too and I shall need to ask you about that in a
16moment.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am unhappy about this introduction of
18documents in this way when I have no chance to re-examine
19on them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will be offered the opportunity to follow
21up any new points, but this is entirely legitimate
22re-examination.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because it arises in relation to a topic that
25you have cross-examined on.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Indeed. It arises, if I may say so, in relation

.   P-193



 1to three topics. It arises in relation to what
 2information Hitler was being given, about which the
 3Professor was cross-examined. It arises in relation to
 4the disappearing Jews that ran across the Urals, which we
 5had yesterday, and it arises in relation to the
 6translation given by Mr Irving for Hitler's table talk on
 725th October 1941, where he translates the word
 8"Schrecken" as "rumour", if I have the right German, but
 9anyhow he gives "public rumour" as the translation. So
10all three of those points arise from these documents.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Can I ask to you look at report number 80 in
13English, September 11th 1941. Have you got that one?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. The second paragraph read as follows. I ask you to
16note the words carefully. "The rumour that the Germans
17shoot to kill all the Jews has advantages. This is
18probably the reason why all the time the EK's encounter
19fewer Jews. Thus it should be noted that everywhere more
20than 70 to 90 per cent of the original local Jews have
21fled. In contrast to the past this concerns not only
22those Jews who once held influential positions". This
23comes I think from Einsatzgruppen C, which had which area
24under its jurisdiction?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Ukraine.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, just in passing, please note the other side of the

.   P-194



 1page, which has a 129 at the bottom, "Notwithstanding that
 2those people had, as it were, done a bunk, we still find
 3something like 30,000 Jews shot by the 11th September
 41941". Do you see that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, at the bottom.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have done the arithmetic for you.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Kommandant, he mentions already 23,600, then
 8Sonderkommando A had reached a figure of 7,000 so the
 9cumulative is 30,000.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     31,000, something like that, and notwithstanding that some
11had been able, most had been able, to get away, they still
12found 23,600 which they managed to shoot in three
13days yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I would like you to look at the German of that
15document, if you will, and the relevant passage, if you
16have this thing, this one is marked Geheim Reichssacher.
17It looks like a 60 on the front but it is not in fact, it
18is an 80, and you can see the date 11th September 1941 on
19the top right hand corner. Have you got that one?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to page 9, please, and look at the last
22paragraph on the page?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It reads: (German - document not provided) Please
25translate that for me.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It turns out to be beneficial. The rumour turns out to be

.   P-195



 1beneficial, that all the Jews are shot by the Germans.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you were asked to translate the word "rumour" into
 3English, what word would you use?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well gerucht would be the common one.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally this, and do you still have Dr Longerich's report
 6up there with you?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you turn to page 59?
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I fail to see under what wangle Mr Rampton
10is being allowed to produce this document to put it in? It
11has had no relevance at all of the cross-examination that
12I conducted.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may not have quite got to it yet. It is
14certainly relevant on the questioning so far on whether
15Schrecken is properly translated as "public rumour", which
16was one of the points we went through this morning.
17 MR IRVING:     A very tiny shoe horn for such a long document, my
18Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can promise you I am not going to plough
20through it unless I am shown other bits of it that are
21worth ploughing through.
22 MR IRVING:     This document was one of the ones that was put to
23Hitler.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is, as I understand it, one that is
25suggested was generated by the request.
26 MR IRVING:     I think the witness should be asked if there is any

.   P-196



 1evidence that this document was one of the ones that was
 2put to him.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a fair point. I think that
 4question should be asked, whether there is any evidence
 5that this particular situation----
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to come to that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you may have jumped the gun,
 8Mr Irving.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     These documents, taken in conjunction, affect
10three questions, Mr Irving's ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have through them. I remember them.
12 MR RAMPTON:     They all arise directly out of cross-examination.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I mentioned, Professor, that you have also got
15there report number 81 about which Mr Irving
16cross-examined you yesterday without producing the
17document. He has not got it there, but I can tell you.
18On page 14 it makes similar remarks about the 72, 90 per
19cent of the people having fled across the Urals?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This was one that was cited yesterday?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the day after. It is 12th September. We will hand
22those in later, if we may, my Lord. Can you turn to page
2359 of Longerich, part I?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, before we leave this, I am taking
25it that the reference to 70 to 90 per cent of the original
26refugees having fled is a reference supporting one of

.   P-197



 1Mr Irving's points, which is that that was what happened
 2to quite a lot of the local Jews, namely they went into
 3Russia.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think we dispute that at all.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. We are agreed about that.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Oh absolutely. How many Jews do you think there
 7were in the Ukraine before the Germans got there?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know, but the total Soviet population of Jews was
 9probably around 5 million, and of course only the question
10of whether one or two million of those were murdered is
11really where you get the difference between five and six
12million victims of the Holocaust.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In your mind, I know this is probably a matter for his
14Lordship than for me, but maybe I can ask this. In your
15mind does it matter whether it is one million or two
16million?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is for me, is it not?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Well, except in so far as it may impinge on the
19question of system, but I think that has been conceded so
20I need not pursue that. Page 59 of part I of
21Dr Longerich, do you have that?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Paragraph 16.4.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He writes this: "On 25th October, the year is 41, Hitler
26made the following remark at his table talk after he had

.   P-198



 1once again made mention of his prophecy of 30th January
 21939. 'This criminal race has the 2 million dead from the
 3world war on its conscience, now hundreds of thousand. No
 4one can say to me we cannot send them into the morass.
 5Who then cares about our people? It is good if the terror
 6we are exterminating Jewry goes before us", and the word
 7for terror is Schrecken in German.
 8     You saw in report No. 80 the words the rumour
 9that the Germans shoot to kill all the Jews has
10advantages. You notice that that comes about a month and
11a bit before Hitler's table talk on the 25th. You have
12seen the Muller order of 1st August 1941. Is it
13legitimate in your mind as an historian to draw any
14inference about Hitler's reception and knowledge of these
15reports from that information?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We could say that there is a certain resonance. It is not
17a direct one, but it is an inference that the materials
18were getting to him and that the Table Talk might be a
19reflection of having read that.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If we are good, cautious historians, we do not need leap
21to giant conclusions from little inferential sketches like
22that, do we?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We would say that this a possible inference.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Thank you. The Barbarossa guidelines are on -- if
25you have got Dr Longerich's report, can you turn to the
26second part of it on page 5 where in paragraph 2 he sets

.   P-199



 1out a part of the guidelines for the conduct of the troops
 2in Russia of 19th May. That is about a month before
 3Barbarossa is actually launched, is it not?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He translates it as: "Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of
 6the National Socialist German people ... (reading to the
 7words) ... Germany's struggle.
 82. This struggle demands ruthless, energetic and drastic
 9measures against the Bolshevik agitators, guerillas
10saboteurs and Jews as well as the complete removal of all
11active and passive resistance". The German is at footnote
1210 at the bottom of the page and I have two questions
13about this. Professor Longerich translates the German as
14"Those Jews were a separate or disjunctive category from
15all the rest of them". Do you understand?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look at the German at the bottom of page 10 and
18tell me whether you think he is right write about that?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the way I would translate it too.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How else could you do it?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure ----
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- is this a bit of an Aunt Sally? I mean,
25I am not sure what Mr Irving has made of this.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know. I have not heard what he says

.   P-200



 1about this. I know that he does not ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is re-examination.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     No, this arose in the course of cross-examination,
 4this document.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know it did, but this point about
 6whether Jews are disjunctive as a category.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Professor Browning said in his
 8cross-examination Jews are a separate category.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     So I wanted to check with him against the German
11whether he thought that Longerich had translated it
12correctly.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see.
14 MR RAMPTON:     He did not have it in front of him at the time
15when he said it, I think, actually.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I was doing that from memory and now I am looking at
17the document.
18 MR RAMPTON:     The second question is this. Again, this is said
19to be a document directed at the Vermacht, not at the SS
20or anybody else like that or the Gestapo. Who would have
21written it?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These would have been prepared in the General Staff,
23I think.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Somebody underneath Jodl?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, or even further down but in the Armed Forces, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, the numbers -- page 38 of your report, please,

.   P-201



 1Professor, now -- this is the famous 97,000, I should say
 2"notorious". We do not need the German for this. I am
 3going to excuse the motor mechanic who is not good at
 4German grammar.
 5     Page 38: "Since December 1941, for example,
 697,000 were processed by three trucks in action, without
 7any defects in the vehicles being encountered".
 8     How many trucks did they use during this period,
 9December to June 1942?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They had two trucks that were there constantly. Another
11truck came and that is the one that had the accident that
12blew up. So most of time they had two trucks running,
13part of the time a third truck.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to use some arithmetic, then I will ask you
15further questions, if may? I do not know whether 1941 was
16a leap year or not, but there are from 1st December '41 to
171st June 1942, 172 or 173 days.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So let us assume it was not a leap year and it is 172. If
20you divide 97,000 by 172, that means they are processing
21564 people a day. If you divide that by three trucks --
22I know this is rough stuff and maybe the trucks did not
23have equal capacities -- that means roughly 188 people per
24truck per day. If they did, say, four trips a day, that
25would be 47 people per trip and that would mean -- when
26I say "a day" I mean on a 24-hour basis?

.   P-201



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That would mean there would be six hours, roughly
 3speaking, five and a bit, between each trip. Does that
 4seem feasible?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We know the Saurer truck was much bigger than 40. We do
 6not know the size ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you think its capacity was?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Saurer truck was, depending on, you know, women and
 9children or adults, would be between 50 and 80.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But, in general, you know, I mean, I think as they show
12that the number per day is not beyond the capacity of the
13two and three trucks.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So four trips a day, that would actually cover the
15numbers involved, would it not?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, we know in Semlin when they made -- they could do two
17trips a day and that would be all the way across Belgrade
18to a burial site that was much further away than the
19distance between the burial grounds and the Chelmno camp
20here.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I mean, how long does it take to drive 20 kilometres in
22one of these trucks?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are talking about driving about two or three kilometres
24from the camp.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Two or three? That is a matter of minutes?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. The longer period would be the period to gas. That

.   P-203



 1is why the motors had to run inside the camp before they
 2left or the passengers would not be dead when they
 3arrived.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From start to finish of the operation, what is your
 5estimate of how long it would have taken?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, would you have to let the desired number of people
 7into the basement of the main building where they would be
 8undressed, force them up ramp into the truck, close the
 9truck doors, run the motor for probably 20 minutes, and
10then drive, given the issue of undressing and the driving,
11on the generous side, we would say an hour, and then you
12must empty the van and clean it out and drive back.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this is purely speculative. He is not an
14expert on gassing operating ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr irving, you must understand if you ask
16almost identical questions in cross-examination,
17Mr Rampton must be entitled to ask the same sort of
18questions in re-examination.
19 MR IRVING:     Well, I was objecting really to the question that
20was asked about how long would it take to gas them and...
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you went into the arithmetic, Mr Irving.
22That opens the issue for Mr Rampton. I am afraid you have
23to take that as being the rule.
24 MR IRVING:     Well, I asked a slightly vaguer question. He asked
25a specific expert question.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again that is legitimate, I am afraid.

.   P-204



 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say this is not speculation in the sense that
 2I have read through virtually all the testimony of the
 3Chelmno trial and have seen a number of descriptions of
 4the operations, so to call what I have said speculation
 5would be unfair characterization.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is speculation in the sense it is
 7reconstruction.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, reconstruction. My real question is this.
10Those sorts of rates, whether it is two or three trucks in
11operation at any one time, whether it is 40 or 50 people
12in the truck at a time, whether there are three or four or
13five trips a day for each truck, does the figure of 97,000
14seem to you to be credible?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is entirely credible.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we please turn back to your L1 tab 7 documents and
17turn to page 74 where I think you were accused -- this is
18Hans Frank on 16th December accused by Mr Irving of
19deliberately suppressing significant parts of the German.
20It is the paragraph that begins "Die Juden"?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I only want you to look at the sentence, the next
23sentence, which begins: "[German - document not
24provided]". What would you say if you were going to say
25"gas" there?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Vergasung".

.   P-205



 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Vergasung". So he cannot shoot them, he cannot poison
 2them, then he says "verden aber", that means "but", does
 3it not?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     [German], what does that mean?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, "Verden aber" would be in the sense "but
 7nonetheless".
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Nonetheless"?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And "eingriffa" would be, you know, "steps would be
10undertaken".
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, [German] "We can do something"?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then it says: "Die [German - document not provided]"
14That means what?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is "one way or another", "in some way".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     [German] and then the word "vernichtung erfolch". What
17does that mean?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "That would lead to a successful", literally in the way
19Germans combine words it means "a destruction success" and
20an English translation usually would be, we would invert
21those and say "a successful destruction".
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So "We will find a way to bring about a successful
23destruction"?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "One way or another"?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, yes.

.   P-206



 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I think you will be pleased, Professor, that that is
 2that, but I would like, if you can give me the answer --
 3what is this? Finally, I would like a little bit of
 4history from you. You were asked about the Wannsee
 5conference?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Was the date in January, 20th January, I think it was,
 8'42, its original date?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, it was originally scheduled for December 8 or 9.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And when was it cancelled, do you know, or postponed?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Just right before that, basically at the time of the
12Russian counter offensive around Moscow on 5th and Pearl
13Harbour on the 7th. I forget the exact date. The notices
14of -- when the marginal note that Rademacher makes on the
15invitation, you know, that he hears it has been cancelled,
16I do not remember the exact date, but it comes just
17before.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So does one know the reason why it was cancelled?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They do not stipulate -- they do not specify, but I think
20a probable inference is that at that point a crisis is
21going on and the people who are invited have too many
22other things to do.
23 MR IRVING:     It says "because of intervening events", I think,
24does it not?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would suggest that the 5th and 7th were very important
26events that suddenly did not allow -- that Heydrich's

.   P-207



 1schedule had to be changed.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Right. Thank you very much, Professor. My Lord,
 3those are all the questions I have in re-examination.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, if you think there is anything
 5raised by the re-examination would you like to further
 6question the Professor about, feel free.
 7 < FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR IRVING.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, going in reverse order, the "We cannot
 9shoot them, we cannot poison them", what would the
10objections to shooting and poisoning have been that would
11not also have applied to gassing, if any?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The shooting of 3 million or 2 million in this case very
13possibly would have, simply it would have been much too
14public. I do not know why Frank would have said they were
15impossible. He is not the one that has been charged with
16trying to figure out how to do it. This is an
17extraordinary thing that is to about to take place, and
18the mind boggles that Frank could not conceive immediately
19of how this would be done strikes me as ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was not talking from a script, was he?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Finally, on this document which has been put to which
23I have not seen mentioned before, which is the Event
24Report No. 80.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You will notice it has the top State Secret classification

.   P-208



 1on it?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This has Geheim, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would I be right in saying that all SS documents are very
 4pernickety about the classification of security on them,
 5an that the Foreign Office and other bodies were less
 6pernickety about the security grade placed on them?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think I could say that. I notice here that this
 8is 48 copies. They may have wanted to stamp it so those
 9who were getting, given the number in circulation, that
10they would be very careful with it. That is speculation,
11but I do not know that SS had a tendency to use the Top
12Secret stamp more than the Foreign Office.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this document typed in the special Fuhrer typewriter?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, it is not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever seen any Event Reports typed in this special
16Fuhrer typewriter for submission to Hitler?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Nothing, except the No. 51 we have talked about.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that called an Event Report?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or is it called Meldung Fuhrer?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is a report to the Fuhrer.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication on this document that it was shown
23to the Fuhrer or submitted to the Fuhrer, like vorgelegt?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why would just the one document have been

.   P-209



 1typed out in the large type for the Fuhrer and marked
 2vorgelegt?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Why were these not typed out?
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Sorry, that was a rather badly phrased question. Does the
 5fact that there is only one such document extant indicate
 6that there only ever was one document?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Given the destruction of documents, particularly, say, in
 8Eichmann's office and in the SS, it leaves open the
 9question that there was a file of such things, and they
10were destroyed. We do not know.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I answer that. There is in fact an
12extensive file of such reports to the Fuhrer, but they
13cover everything like the midget torpedo attack on
14Turpids. It is the whole gamut.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure there are. I was talking only about
16reports from the Einsatzgruppen.
17 MR IRVING:     That is only one I have seen also.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I appreciate it is the only one anyone knows
19about. I was wondering whether that suggested that there
20only ever was one, but the Professor says not. No more
21questions?
22 MR IRVING:     No further questions.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, thank you very much. You
24are free to go.
25 < (The witness stood down).
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are going to resume at 10.30 on ----

.   P-210



 1 MR RAMPTON:     I think Professor Evans will be here on Thursday.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you wanting to interpolate some witness
 3of your own before him?
 4 MR IRVING:     We have Dr John Fox.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Whatever you like.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am only going to ask Mr Rampton whether he was
 7going to cross-examine me further and, if so, when?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I will not only say when but I hope what, because
 9it is the last things I have to ask about. I was hoping
10to do it on Friday, so as to get it out of the way, but
11I am in other people's hands.
12 MR IRVING:     Can you say about how long you will be
13cross-examining?
14 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think it will take all that long.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are the topics?
16 MR RAMPTON:     The topics are, well, there is the question of
17Mr Irving's knowledge of that Muller signal to the
18Einsatzgruppen. I do not accept his answer that he has
19not seen it before, and there is a reason for that which
20I shall not say what it is now, apart from the fact that
21it appears to have been in the public domain for nearly 20
22years.
23 MR IRVING:     I have been in the public domain for 62 years.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are not going to have the
25cross-examination now.
26 MR RAMPTON:     That I think we have dealt with. So that has

.   P-211



 1gone. There is Zamus report of 16th December 1942 which
 2appeared and then disappeared because your Lordship said
 3Mr Irving needed more time.
 4 MR IRVING:     Also you should reveal where it came from.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     That is happening and I hope that will be in place
 6by Friday. There is Anne Frank that I forgot about out of
 7Evans and also van Pelt, and I think I ought to ask a
 8couple of questions, it is quite short. Then there is,
 9again which I hope I can keep quite short, the question of
10Mr Irving's associates, if I may call them that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     That will certainly be completed in a day or
13perhaps less.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My slight feeling, and it is up to Mr Irving
15in the end, well, I suppose it is up to me in the end, but
16I wonder whether it is right to interrupt his
17cross-examination ----
18 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- of really your major witness,.
20 MR IRVING:     May I suggest that I bring Dr Fox on Thursday?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are going to do that bring him first
22off.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Can I say not, because I think I told your
24Lordship Professor Evans is in real difficulty on Friday.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Which is why I am proposing -- if your Lordship

.   P-212



 1wants to leave Friday blank I quite understand the reason
 2why, nothing personally, but from Mr Irving' point of
 3view, then he has three clear days to gather himself again
 4for a renewed assault on Professor Evans on Monday.
 5Alternatively Dr. Fox might come on Friday, but it seems a
 6bit of a ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That I would not have so much difficulty
 8with, because Fox, frankly, I do not quite know what he is
 9going to say, but he has not a major problem for Mr Irving
10in terms of preparation.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Absolutely certainly not, and none for me because
12I am not going to cross-examine him.
13 MR IRVING:     You do not what he is going to say yet.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Of course I do. I have read his witness
15statement.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So I have but I have forgotten what is in it.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Something about free speech I think.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we just plan the timetable? On
19Thursday we will have Evans all day. On Friday we will
20Fox for as long as he takes. Then we will resume with
21Evans on Monday. We will have the cross-examination of
22yourself at a later date to be fixed.
23 MR RAMPTON:     That means only one more day and a tiny bit in
24court this week I think.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which I think at this stage of the case is
26not such a bad thing.

.   P-213



 1 MR IRVING:     Preparation of Evans is complicated by the fact
 2that I now have to shoe-horn the material which I have
 3prepared for Levin and Eatwell into the Evans
 4cross-examination.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are giving you a day tomorrow and then you
 6are going to have most of Friday.
 7 MR IRVING:     Very well.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you happy with that because tell me if
 9you are not?
10 MR IRVING:     So Fox on Thursday?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Fox on Friday morning.
12 MR RAMPTON:     If he can manage it.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tell me if it turns out to create any
14problems for you.
15 MR RAMPTON:     We do not mind, my Lord. If Mr Irving would
16rather have Dr Fox here on Thursday we do not mind.
17 MR IRVING:     No.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is quite a good idea to have him
19on Friday. So we are not sitting tomorrow but we are
20sitting on Thursday.
21 (The court adjourned until Thursday, 19th February 2000)
22
23
24
25
26

.   P-214



  

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