Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 5 of 214
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 8th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY SEVENTEEN
1 <Day 17Tuesday, 8th February 2000.
2 < PROFESSOR BROWNING, recalled.
3< Cross-Examined by MR IRVING, continued.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think there is a suggestion that
5we might at some stage amalgamate the documents really
6relating to Professor Browning's evidence which at the
7moment are in two separate places.
8 MR IRVING: Miss Rogers has very kindly volunteered to do this
9task and I willingly accept that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just mentioning it to you in case you
11had any feelings on the topic, but I think it must be
12sensible. I wonder whether we might not keep the
13pagination? Otherwise the transcript will make very
14little sense. Can I leave that to you? Yes, Mr Irving?
15 MR IRVING: May it please the court, I have given your Lordship
16a little bundle of documents, on the basis of which I wish
17to cross-examine the witness this morning.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Let us decide where we are going to put
20 MR IRVING: Whatever occurs under the new regime, I think.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Temporarily it had better go into J or L,
22I do not mind which.
23 MS ROGERS: L.
24 MR IRVING: L. I think the simplest thing to do, Professor
25Browning, is if we just go through this heap in sequence.
26You will agree that the first few documents apparently
1come from the Himmler papers, is that correct?
2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] They come from the administrative and economic main office
3of the SS which is under Himmler.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause a moment, Mr Irving, will you?
6Yes, Mr Irving.
7 MR IRVING: My Lord, I should explain the purpose of the
8following questions is to go to the quantum, the figures
9really. That is all I am looking at. It is Operation
10Reinhardt. These are documents from a file in Himmler's
11papers called Operation Reinhardt. (To the witness):
12Professor Browning, is it correct that these documents
13appear to come from the Hoover Library in California, if
14you look down the slash on the side?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] And can you recognize the initials of Heinrich Himmler on
17the top copy?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] So, in other words, this document is of high level, shall
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are Himmler's initials?
23 MR IRVING: The HH under the word "Hehler" about three inches
24from the top right-hand side of the document.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26 MR IRVING: I am purely interested in the very first line of
1the letter under the word "Reichsfuhrer", where it says:
2No. 1. Then, when you translate the next sentence, this
3"Bis 30.4.1943 sind angeliefert"?
4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] "Up until the 30th April 1943 had been delivered".
5 Q. [Mr Irving] "Had been delivered the following", right?
6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] If you look then at the list that follows, it is a number
8of items, a rather sad list, I suppose, a tragic list, of
9wristwatches, is that right, for men and women?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Fountain pens?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Razor blades and other valuable items, is that right?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] These are all the sort of things that would have been in
15one's toiletries or personal possessions, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Where had these items come from?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] These were formerly Jewish possessions, but I see nothing
18so far that says which camps they came from.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can I draw your attention to the reference line at
20the top of the transcript, the Verwertung, the
21exploitation of -- then comes one of their stock phrases,
22is it not, "Jewish plundering loot", is that correct?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] In fact, I have not seen that first phrase, but the
24"Diebesguts", the stolen goods, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] This is the way that they sought to legitimate what they
26are doing, is that correct?
1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes, their stance was all that Jewish property had been
2stolen by Jews originally, so they were repossessing they
3claimed what was properly German property.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, a very distorted, perverse, kind of thinking, right?
5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] A rationale that appears.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How does this help on numbers?
7 MR IRVING: It helps on numbers, my Lord, because we have
8numbers of items that had been collected from the victims
9by April 30th 1943.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not say "from when".
11 MR IRVING: I am hoping that the witness will assist us on
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us ask.
14 MR IRVING: Where did these items come from, these valuables?
15Did they come from victims of Operation Reinhardt?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I see nothing in the document that says Operation
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Very well. Can I take you, therefore, to page 4, the
19handwritten number at the bottom?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] And you will notice in the third line of the letterhead
22the initials "Reinh." in the top left-hand corner?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] "Reinh", yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I take you to page 10, and on the same letter head
25also we have Reinhardt?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Those two documents do have the "Reinh.".
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