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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 176

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    You quote in your report a passage about a complete
 1liquidation of the Jews not possible to due to the frost.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is the bottom of page 2, my Lord, above the
 3little letters (a) and (b).
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the quote I made ends, and then they say there are
 6two categories to distinguish German and Russian, and then
 7they explain that the German Jews are much better workers
 8than the Russian Jews, and that is a reason why there
 9would be differentiated treatment.
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, again this may be a document which it
11would repay having rather more translated of.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think in view of the point Mr Irving has
13just made, that would probably be right.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I think that must be right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
16 MR IRVING:     We now come to a rather sensitive area which your
17Lordship may feel is not relevant, and this is the
18question to what extent did the local population
19participate in or even instigate the killings of Jews on
20the Eastern Front, the Russian front and in the Baltic
21countries, and to what extent were they themselves
22murderers? In other words, what percentage of the
23killings were their responsibility and what percentage
24went on to the Nazis?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the question you would like my affirmation on?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of the pogroms that is something that was a brief
 2phenomenon in the very opening days of the war, sometimes
 3instigated by the Germans, sometimes starting
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are we talking about the Eastern Front or the Baltic
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Both. Baltic countries is part I would say of the Eastern
 8Front. More success, I guess more pogroms in some parts
 9of the Ukraine and Lithuania than -- here I do not know
10the detail of where the pogroms occurred, but clearly they
11were supported and instigated by the Germans. How many
12were spontaneous would take a research that I have not
13gone into. What is more important is that by late July
14Himmler has approved the formation of auxiliary police
15units, that these police units reach about 30,000 by the
16end of 1941, about 300,000 by the end of 1942, and
17comprise one of the major manpower sources for why a small
18number of Einsatzgruppen ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And they were not all engaged killing though, were they?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. Many are in police stations, but they are at one
21point when it comes the day to kill the Jews in that
22region, often it is the local police that would be part of
23the liquidation process. They do not move about. Some
24do. There are two concepts: The ones kept in police
25stations and then there are the mobile battalions.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I introduce the concept of the interregnum between the

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 1time that the Soviet troops pulled out of the Baltic
 2countries and the Nazi troops arrive, a period of, say,
 3one or two weeks?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure that it was that long in many places.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there much killing went on in that time?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would have represented an infinitesimal fraction of
 7the total number of Soviet Jews killed.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not familiar with the private diary Otto
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, before you go further, is this
11your best point? If there really were 300,000 of these
12people, Nazi ----
13 MR IRVING:     Auxiliaries.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- auxiliaries, how far are you going to get
15with the idea that it was the local population that was
16either participating or instigating.
17 MR IRVING:     I appreciate your objection, my Lord. I will not
18press that matter any further.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Press on if you want, but it seems me it is
20not perhaps a particularly good point.
21 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have come to the end of my preparations
22for today's cross-examination. With respect, I would ask
23that, unless Mr Rampton has any further points to make, we
24will adjourn now.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I told you I will give you as much latitude
26as you reasonably want. You have gone quite

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 1expeditiously. So, Mr Rampton, you do not object to
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am absolutely relaxed about that. I would like
 4to know because I have to get Professor Evans ready,
 5whether we will finish with Professor Browning tomorrow.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sensible timetabling.
 7 MR IRVING:     I think we will finish with Professor Browning
 9 MR RAMPTON:     In that case, I will prepare to have Professor
10Evans here for Thursday.
11 MR IRVING:     I might want possibly one or two hours more on
12Thursday, but it is certainly not to inconvenience
13Professor Evans.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One or two more hours more on Thursday with
15Professor Browning?
16 MR IRVING:     If I have not quite finished with him by then.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just wondering whether he is not wanting
18to go off somewhere else.
19 MR RAMPTON:     He wants to go back home to America. So if he is
20not finished tomorrow, which is Tuesday, I would ask that
21he could be finished on Wednesday morning.
22 MR IRVING:     I was thinking Wednesday morning, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What we will do, Mr Irving, is we will carry
24on on Wednesday. Do not worry, you will get your day, but
25it may be a split day, if you follow me, a day's time for
26preparing Evans.

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 1 MR IRVING:     It makes sense for me to prepare properly the way I
 2have for today.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. In the end it saves time which is
 4why I think it is perfectly sensible.
 5 MR IRVING:     Unless Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him now
 6on some of the points I have made.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Re-examine.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No, I would not dream of cross-examining, even if
 9I were allowed to.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would let you, but I do not think it
11is actually sensible.
12 MR RAMPTON:     There is one little problem about Professor
13Evans. It probably does not matter enormously because
14I can use Friday with remaining cross-examination of
15Mr Irving. Professor Evans has rearranged everything
16because he thought we were not sitting on Friday. So he
17has, as it were, pushed everything into that one day. So
18even if he was started on Thursday I would ask him to be
19released for the Friday. Friday will not be wasted.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you have a view about that?
21 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. I am in your Lordship's hands. I am
22much more relaxed than I was last week.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The overall progress has actually been quite
25 MR RAMPTON:     Very good. My hope is that we are actually going
26to save about a month of the estimate, which means we

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