Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 15: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 93

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    I was referring to two documents in my source reference.
 1now checked with all versions of the manuscript -- it went
 2through five or six different versions -- to see how the
 3error occurred in the digit because obviously I want to
 4track something like that down. The actual reference is
 5to Karl Wolff as Karl Wolff quoting Werner Best, who was a
 6Gestapo official.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please, can we try today to stick to the
 8point? I am going to read you something which appeared on
 9your web site -- this is so as to remove a point of
10controversy from the case entirely -- yesterday or this
11morning. You print reports of your own version of what
12goes on in court.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The "Radical's Diary", yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write this. I am not entering into the argy-bargy at
15all. It is full of comments and I am leaving that out.
16"In 'Goebbels Mastermind of the Third Reich' I have
17muddled one source note identified there as PS 3052, thus
18Karl Wolff (it should have been 3051)".
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     3051 is the one that was produced in court
21which has, as it were, nothing to do with it?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The diary just says that I identified it as P 3052 plus
23Karl Wolff. You rather swallowed the word "plus". It
24should have been 3051 instead of 3052.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I now would like you, in view of the
26answers you gave about the National Alliance yesterday ,

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 1notwithstanding the tape that we showed, to look at one
 2very short part of the same tape. We will pause it still
 3when we get to the right place. Then I shall ask you
 4whether you still adhere to the position you took
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Which position are we talking about? Be specific.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think this is the October 1995 visit to Tampa. This
 8is '96, sorry.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Can you specify what position you are referring to when
10you say I am still referring to the same position?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You took the position that You had no idea who the
12National Alliance were, that it was a meeting organized by
13them, or anything of that kind.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, we will look at this.
16 (Excerpt of video was played)
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it get any clearer?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I can see what you are pointing to.
19 (Excerpt of video was played)
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is not ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     It is rather unfortunate they show that bit, is it not,
22because I am accused of being a Holocaust denier.
23 (Excerpt of video was played)
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There. Now, Mr Irving, you see that picture?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it has its back to me apparently.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It has not got its back to you.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It has.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is there by your left shoulder.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. If I see something like that in a hall, I would not
 4know from Adam was that is. Would you know what it was if
 5you went into a hall and you saw that?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, if I was speaking on a platform and that was part of
 7my paraphernalia.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not actually a platform.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And pictures put up by the organizer, of course I would
10know, Mr Irving. That is enough of that, thank you.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not enough of that because there is one----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Turn it off now will you, please?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes because it might show some more unfortunate denials
14that I am a denier, would it not? Can I just make a
15statement, so to speak, in re-examination there and say
16that I will point out that you have had my entire
17correspondence with all organizations to whom I ever
18spoke. You have had my entire private diaries. Professor
19Evans himself says in his report that he has found no
20reference to the National Alliance in my private diaries.
21You have not so far produced to this court one single item
22of correspondence between me and the National Alliance.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to ask you two more questions, Mr Irving.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I take it you accept what I have just said?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have said it to me. I have
26taken it on board but you do not need to get Mr Rampton to

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 1answer your evidence.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is an opportunity for Mr Rampton to cross-examine on
 3that point.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     No, Mr Irving, it was re-examination. You said so
 5yourself. I do not butt in when people are re-examining.
 6I let people do it to themselves.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     You took away about 40 boxes of all my private files and
 8papers and not one single letter between me and the
 9National Alliance have you produced to this court.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the point.
11 MR RAMPTON:     We changed the date on this. My Lord, I am going
12back to the little clip of utterances, page 37 in the
13clip, my Lord, file K4, tab 4, page 3.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have lost the clip.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Your clip, my Lord, has been put in the front of
16K4, apparently.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Page 3, my Lord. This is Bow 1993, I think you
19tell us now. Is that right?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Page 3 of the transcript, my Lord, and page 37 of
23the clip. I am going to start a little bit before the
24clip extract begins. If Mr Irving wants to read on or
25have more, than he must do it himself, the whole text is
26there. I am going to read, Mr Irving, from the sixth line

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 1in the middle of the page after the words "our national
 2heritage", where you say this:
 3     "When people ask me about racism I say 'would
 4you mind explaining to me what is the difference between
 5racism and patriotism'? Journalists, television
 6interviewers, I've had a great deal of these in the last 2
 7or 3 weeks, you won't notice this of course, because I've
 8been going to the television studios here or in Camden
 9town or in Isleworth, speaking by satellite live on prime
10time Australian television, 3 or 4 times last week. New
11Zealand television as well because New Zealand always
12picks up what their big brothers do in Australia, and the
13journalist has said 'Mr Irving, we read in today's
14newspapers that you told the ABC radio" -- that is an
15Australian radio, is it not, Mr Irving, ABC radio?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "'That you feel queasy about the immigration disaster
18that's happened to Britain. Is that your opinion'?
19And I said well yes, I have admit to being born in England
20in 1938, which was totally different England, I feel
21queasy when I look and see what has happened to our
22country, nobody has stood up and objected to it' and he
23says, 'well what do you think about black people on the
24Australian, on the British cricket team then? How do you
25feel about that then, the black cricketers'? So I said,
26'that makes me even more queasy,". Pause there, please,

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accessed 12 March 2013