Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition
Pages 171 - 175 of 175
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. You did not read it like that. You knew that she was
3 A. [Mr Irving] Why would I know that she was called Burnstone?
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Because it is in the footnote and it was read out to you.
5 A. [Mr Irving] If I misread it, misreadings do occur. You have been
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait until we have found the docment.
8 A. [Mr Irving] You have been repeatedly misreading words throughout the
9last few days but I have not commented on that.
10 MR RAMPTON: "Do not worry. I will come back to it tomorrow.
11You may have a chance to answer properly. Let me go on.
12The problem is somebody has apparently issued a leaflet.
13I am sure that none of us here is personally responsible.
14The hoax, including a picture on the front cover of a
15notorious saisai" -- what is that? "Anti-Semitic forgery.
16The protocols of the learned elders of Zion. The covers
17cartoon which protects its serpent encircling the world
18used to have a traditional crude character of a hideous
19Jewish face, but it now includes instead a picture of
20Gerry Gable. I wonder how they spotted the difference."
21 A. [Mr Irving] You know the connection with Gerry Gable, of course. Or
22shall I explain it to you?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it so you do not need to.
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not want to know.
25 A. [Mr Irving] Gerry Gable is also no friend of mine, so I am quite happy
26to describe him in these terms.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] I see. Another of your enemies whom you insult by, as it
2were, comparing with a hideous Jewish face - is that
4 A. [Mr Irving] Whether he is Jewish or not is neither here nor there. He
5is hideous, he is immoral, he has spent the last 36 years
6of his life trying to destroy me and my family because he
7has a criminal conviction for breaking into my house.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] But the insult which you have prepared -- apparently they
9thought it was jolly funny because they laughed -- for
10Mr Gable is that he should replace the hideous Jewish
11face, is it not?.
12 A. [Mr Irving] Well, it certainly was not forged by me. I do know who
13did that but obviously other people hold the same opinion
14of Mr Gable as I do.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] My problems began in October of last year when I was
16speaking in Los Angeles and I received a letter from the
17Canadian government telling me not to come home on my
18projected tour of Canada which was to cover 17 cities from
19Vancouver right the way across to Ottawa. The Canadian
20governments had been alerted by the Simon Wiesenthal
21Institute in Los Angeles and immediately clicked their
22heels together and said "Ja vohl, Herr Wiesenthal, we will
23not let him in". Now tell me about this Wiesenthal
24again. I asked you before and you said, "Oh no, it is not
25the well known Simon Wiesenthal".
26 A. [Mr Irving] Well, of course, H I E R is the director of the Wiesenthal
1Centre. The Wiesenthal Centre in Los Angeles has no
2connection with Simon Wiesenthal apart from the concession
3they pay him every year for the use of his name.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] But it is a Jewish organization, is it?
5 A. [Mr Irving] I imagine that they restrict their intake of employees to
6Jews, yes, but I have no information on that.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know about that, but it is some kind of Jewish
8institute in Los Angeles, no doubt in some part concerned
9with the history of the Holocaust?
10 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, I have collaborated with them in the past with
11documents and things.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then comes the stuff about the Wiesenthal facial
13appearance and its comparison with the Halloween mask.
14 A. [Mr Irving] I think I should explain. It may very well help his
15Lordship. This date is wrong on this. It is not 1992, it
16is definitely 1993, after I have had to go through the
17harrowing episode of being deported and handcuffed on the
18floor of an Air Canada plane, after I have been thrown out
19of Germany. All these things have happened as the result
20of the machinations of these people around the world,
21after I have been banned from Australia. So I am afraid
22you have the wrong year on this and suddenly everything
23clicks into place. I am perfectly entitled to criticise
24these people for what they have done to me.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] As we noticed before, when an anti-Semite is rattled or
26riled, out comes the anti-Semitic language.
1 A. [Mr Irving] No, critical language. This is unfortunately where you
2make a mistake, Mr Rampton. When you are critical of what
3the Jews do to you as Jews, it is not anti-Semitism. They
4are entitled to take their action against me as Jews but,
5if I criticise them, it becomes anti-Semitism. Have
6I understood correctly?
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, you have not. I do not think you are trying,
9 A. [Mr Irving] I am trying very hard to understand the point that you are
10trying to make.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] The answer to one's enemies is not that they are ugly Jews
12with silly names, it is that they are acting badly, is it
14 A. [Mr Irving] They were doing all of it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] But what relevance is it that they have ugly Jewish faces
16and silly Jewish names?
17 A. [Mr Irving] Well, you are talking about the ugly Jewish face. You are
18referring to the episode with the Halloween mask in which
19the word "Jew" does not figure. We are talking about a
20man who is well known for not being a particularly
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] What relevance has it to your defence against him that he
23happens not to be beautiful?
24 A. [Mr Irving] I am just making fun of him. If I had made fun of any
25other person who was not Jewish, it would never have
26occurred to them to say this is anti-Semitism or
1anti-Asian or anti-French. If I made fun of Monsieur
2Mitterand, for example, or Jacques Cherac, I would not be
3accused of being anti-French if I said that he had a
4ridiculous face that looked like a Halloween mask. I
5would be accused of being anti-Mitterand or anti-Cherac.
6But, because we are talking here about Wiesenthal,
7suddenly different rules apply.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, when you reach a convenient
10 MR RAMPTON: I have not quite finished this, I am afraid.
11 A. [Mr Irving] He is beginning to whimper a bit and he wants to find
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is unnecessary. We will be here a
14long time if you go on.
15 MR RAMPTON: You are not going to provoke me at this time of
16night, Mr Irving. I can do another two of these things or
17I can stop and do them in the morning.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you finished on this particular
20 MR RAMPTON: I have finished on Wiesenthal.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think, in all the circumstances, we
22will adjourn until 10.30 until tomorrow morning.
23 < (The witness withdrew)
24 (The court adjourned until the following day)
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