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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 175

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    They are very pleased that, in fact -- it is another of
 1are Jews?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, I am not allowed to criticise the fact
 3that this community's self-appointed leaders around the
 4world have set about trying to suppress freedom of speech,
 5to abrogate my right to travel freely around the world,
 6I am not allowed to criticise that because they are
 7Jewish, is that right? On the contrary, if I find any
 8person or any body of people, whether they are black or
 9yellow or Asian or French or Germans or leading counsel,
10indeed, who are trying to abrogate my rights to freedom of
11speech and free right to travel, then I will criticise
12them without fear or favour. And the fact that this
13comment happens to be Jewish is neither here nor there. It
14cannot be construed as anti-Semitic.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we read on and see whether we agree with that,
16Mr Irving? "We have one basic problem and this is, apart
17from the literature displayed on the table over there, we
18have no national" -- I do not know who "we" are -- "organ
19that we can read to find out what is going on. I am not
20ashamed to say that I read the Jewish Chronicle to find
21out what they are doing because they seem pretty well
22informed". This is the sort of Aryan Defence League
23against the Jews, the "we", is it?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Where do you get "Aryan Defence League" from?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, who is the "we"?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I frequently find out what the Jewish organizations

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 1are planning against me because it is announced in the
 2Jewish Chronicle. They say, "Meet outside Mr Irving's
 3flat, 81 Duke Street, 12.00 midday". That is how I know
 4when these demonstrations are going to happen.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not the Royal "we", Mr Irving. "I read the Jewish
 6Chronicle to find out what we are doing". Who are the
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "There is an article here only a couple of weeks ago
10called 'Anti-Semites ask for cash in latest sophisticated
11forgery'" -- not, by any chance, the united anti-Semites
12then, the "we"?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I have got no idea what the article is about.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, you must have done because you mentioned it.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it certainly was not me so I cannot see what the
16reference is.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "This is, of course, an unusual twist as it is not usually
18anti-Semites who are asking for cash in sophisticated
19forgeries. A man called Mr Mike Whine, the director of
20the board of deputies of British Jews", Mike W-H-I-N-E,
21you spell it ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You will appreciate the reason why I do not like Mike
23Whine because I discovered that he is the person who has
24dedicated much of his life to destroying my career and
25livelihood by now, and that those documents are also in
26the bundle.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I might not like the black man who is my enemy, but I am
 2not likely to use the fact that he is black in order to
 3defend myself, am I, Mr Irving?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not criticise anybody because of their colour,
 5Mr Rampton.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then why do you make such again with Mr Whine's name?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I am defensive about the man. The man has spent
 8many years trying to destroy me. He has maintained a
 9dossier full of the most evil and defamatory and lying
10facts about me which he puts to foreign governments with
11the intention of destroying my career, as we now know.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not like Mr Whine. I understand that.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     With good reason, and because he is Jewish does not make
14him immune from my criticism.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Precisely. But the fact that he is Jewish has nothing to
16do with your criticism either?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I am perfectly entitled to make fun of his name among
18other ways of getting back at him.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I am bothered by their names". That is more people than
20just poor Mr Mike Wine, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     We had this in another speech too and I have listed a
22whole bunch of names, Wieseltier and so on.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to read on. Please be quiet. "I love them
24dearly, I really do, believe me. I love them very dearly,
25yet around the world they have these extraordinary names.
26In Australia the man who has defamed me so consistently

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 1has now received from my lawyers in West Australia four
 2libel writs. His name is Mr Izzy Leibler".
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Leibler, L E I B L E R. That has been misspelt.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Laughter".
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, if a man's name is Leibler and he has received from
 6me four libel writs, it seems singularly apposite.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, that is a perfectly decent joke. It is a pity
 8it is misspelt, is it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It has been consider in your copy but I know how to spell
10properly. His name is L E I B L E R and his brother, Mark
11Leibler, spells it the same way, oddly enough. They are
12both multi-millionaires and they have used their money to
13try and destroy my career in Australia.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, L I E B L E R?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it is misspelt. It is L E I. That is
16the point.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Oh I see.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Which is pronounced by any normal person as "libeller".
19He is careful to pronounce it as "leebeller".
20 MR RAMPTON:     Let us pass on, Mr Irving. "If I had a name like
21wine, W H I N E, or Leibler, it reminds me of Brentwood
22School, where I want to school. Perhaps I ought not to
23read out the name of the school. There was a boy in our
24class called Bottomwetten".
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There is another one called Jack Straw.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "What bravery to carry the name of Bottomwetten, not only

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 1just through your own life, but also through generations
 2before you, passing this name proudly down. Whine,
 3Leibler. I would be inclined to change my name by deed
 4poll, not once but twice, in case anyone asked what my
 5previous name was". I am going to pause there, Mr
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     You will recognize this as the old gramophone record, you
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. The old gramophone record, indeed I do. Mr Irving,
10when you were being cross-examined by me some days ago,
11there was a reference to a footnote in van Pelt's report,
12I think it was, it matters not, to a book edited by a lady
13called Deborah Burnstone.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you remember that, when that was drawn to your
16attention, you pronounced that name "Bronsteen"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I do not.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will find it for you in the transcript. If I am right,
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea. I have no recollection of that episode at
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why this interest in names? What does it matter what a
23person is called?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     You are putting this to me and I am hearing it for the
25first time. I am as astonished as you are. If I read it
26like that, then that was the way I read the name.

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