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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 25th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company,Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY NINE
1 <Day 9 Tuesday, 25th January 2000.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I have your clip which I obviously
3have not had time to read. Before we get into that, shall
4we, as proposed, just look ahead and consider what is
5going to be happening? We are going to have Professor van
6Pelt today, is that right?
7 MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord, that right.
8 MR IRVING: Yes.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that the transcript is clear, that is him
10being interposed in order to be called by the Defendants
11and cross-examined because he has commitments elsewhere.
12Is it expected he will be finished in a day?
13 MR IRVING: I doubt it, my Lord. I think two days.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. So when will he resume? He cannot be
15here tomorrow, Mr Rampton, can he?
16 MR RAMPTON: He can tomorrow but not Thursday.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we should get rid of him.
18 MR RAMPTON: If he can be done in two days, so much the better;
19if he cannot, he can come back on Friday.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have to keep within reasonable bounds so
21I hope he will be finished within two days.
22 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's original estimate for him was three
23days. We asked what the estimate was. But, if it is two
24days, so much the better. If we have Friday a blank, as
25it were, then I shall continue cross-examining Mr Irving
26on Friday, I suppose.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
2 MR RAMPTON: Then on Monday, Professor McDonald, and I do not
3know about Dr Fox, it may be him too. I do not know.
4That is in Mr Irving's hands.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot remember who Professor McDonald is.
6 MR IRVING: My expert witness.
7 MR RAMPTON: He is a social scientist, I think.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is he going to be, just so that you
9are communicating about timing?
10 MR IRVING: I shall be submitting various documents to him with
11your Lordship's permission, my Lord, and it depends on
12whether Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him or not.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may not know the answer to that until he
14knows in more detail what he is going to say.
15 MR RAMPTON: I have a pretty good idea what he is going to
16say. The answer is if I cross-examine him at all, it will
17be quite shortly, I expect.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And then Fox?
19 MR RAMPTON: I do not know about Mr Fox. That is Mr Irving's
21 MR IRVING: I expect Dr Fox will be half a day, my Lord, if
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
24 MR RAMPTON: Then, my Lord, I hope I will be able to complete
25any outstanding issues arising out of Evans and the
26political scientists in the remainder of the four days of
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
3 MR RAMPTON: I would be disappointed if I do not. I would hope
4I would be quicker than that.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I would too. I think you have been
6through the most -- if I can use the word "laborious"
7without giving offence -- laborious bit.
8 MR RAMPTON: No, not laborious, perhaps the most important
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Distorting history on Hitler.
11 MR RAMPTON: Distorting Hitler and Holocaust denial by means of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So at the end of those four days, will that
14complete your cross-examination?
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it should do. As your Lordship knows,
16Reichskristallnacht is a bit fiddly.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite convoluted.
18 MR RAMPTON: It is convoluted, exactly, so it may take a bit of
19time. Then, my Lord, we are now being speculative, in a
20sense, provisional, we would hope to start our evidence,
21excluding Professor van Pelt, on Monday, whatever it is of
22February, with possibly Professor Browning, possibly
23Dr Longerich, possibly Professor Evans, I do not know.
24Then I think perhaps the only political scientists we will
25call as a witness is Fulkhan, the German. But that is a
26little bit in the future.
1 I have put question marks against Levin and
2Eatwell and also against the Russian witness Tarasov
3because, quite frankly, having regard to the witness
4statement of Mr Irving's witness, the journalist, Peter
5Miller, I do not think Mr Tarasov has anything to add at
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will say again that I think in relation to
8the Moscow diaries some sort of accommodation might be
10 MR IRVING: My Lord, I do wish to make certain fundamental
11observations about the way the case is being conducted so
12far. I do not know if this is the appropriate moment.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think now is probably the moment for you to
14do that, unless you would rather reserve it for later?
15 MR IRVING: It is brief but to the point, my Lord. I am the
16Claimant in this action. This is my action, and I spent
17yesterday evening indulging in a little bit of light
18reading in the Civil Procedure Rules and my eye alighted
19on Lord Woolf's wise words towards the beginning of the
20introduction to the Rules which states that all steps have
21to be taken to ensure complete equity between the parties.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. That is my major function.
23 MR IRVING: It is a major departure from the old system. He
24said, he identified a range of defects in the existing
25civil justice system, the third of which was that it was
26too unequal in that there was a lack of equality between
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