Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition
Pages 11 - 15 of 199
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You did that very, if I may say so,
2effectively and briefly.
3 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will have apprehended that I attach
4importance to the Schlegelberger memorandum. I have
5quoted it frequently, I have illustrated it in my books,
6and I wish to make sure that it stayed upright without
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would not be exaggerating to say that it
9is something of a linchpin for your thesis about the
10extent to which Hitler knew about what was going on.
11 MR IRVING: One of the chain of document to which we
12occasionally refer, my Lord.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Schlegelberger.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, do you want to add anything?
15 MR RAMPTON: I have some questions remaining about
16Schlegelberger, particularly in the light of these
18 MR IRVING: Do you wish me to go into the box?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have to keep an eye on the time.
20 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship need not fear; we have enough
21material for today.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not worrying about having enough.
23Mr Irving, perhaps you would go back into the box?
24 < MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
25< Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON QC, continued.
26 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, there is one document which you have
1not included in that little clip, is there not?
2 A. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton, I spent a large part of the night in looking
3for my Schlegelberger file, but the documents came back
4from solicitors for the Defendants in such disarray that
5it was in vain. I had to reconstruct it from other
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Curiously enough, I did the same exercise myself last
8night, and the document that I have included in my little
9clip which I will hand in---- (Document not provided) .
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put these?
11 MR RAMPTON: For the moment they can go together. Perhaps they
12can both go in whatever the J number is.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: J7.
14 MR RAMPTON: Some of them may in due course be filed away into
15the core file.
16 A. [Mr Irving] May I express incidentally my amazement that this bundle
17of documents did not turn up in the bundles that were put
18to the court?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. I understand the point. Let us get
21 MR RAMPTON: There is a document, Mr Irving, that you did not
22include -- I am not saying it is deliberate, at least not
23at the moment -- in the little clip and that is the
24actual minute of the meeting on 6th March 1942, is it not?
25 A. [Mr Irving] That is correct. The reason for that being that it did
26not come from that Ministry of Justice file. This comes
1from, as the serial numbers at the foot of it clearly
2show, the Foreign Ministry files.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] It did not, but it is one of the footnotes to your
4Goebbels book, is it not?
5 A. [Mr Irving] I am sorry, the footnote is referred to in the Goebbels
6book? It is indeed, yes.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is footnote 36 to page 388, and one knows it is the
8same document for two reasons: First because the
9personnel mentioned at as being at the meeting include
10Karssonsen and Schmidtburg?
11 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] And because the film roll number at the bottom right hand
13corner of the page that you have got there is the one
14which you give in your footnote. So we are looking now at
15the right document, are we? It is 371962?
16 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. Can you show me again the page reference in the
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes I have copied it for convenience. It is page 388, and
19it is note 36 in the upper half of the page, the big
20paragraph before the word Eichmann. My Lord, I have copied
21for your Lordship note 36 which is on page 647, where
22Mr Irving said -- perhaps I will read the Goebbels text
23first so that it will become a little clearer what it is
24that I am driving at. I will start if I may on 388. "On
25the following day" -- that is he and one can see from the
26previous page that that is Goebbels and the following day
1is 6th March -- "Goebbels took note of an extensive
2report prepared by Heydrich's office, probably on the
3Wannsee conference. There were still eleven million Jews
4in Europe, he dictated, summarizing the document. 'For the
5time being they are to be concentrated in the east [until]
6Later; possibly an island like Madagascar can be assigned
7to them after the war.' 'Undoubtedly there will be a
8multitude of personal tragedies,' he added airily,'But
9this is unavoidable. The situation now is ripe for a
10final settlement of the Jewish question.' In a covering
11letter Heydrich invited Goebbels to a second conference,
12on March 6. Goebbels sent two of his junior staff."
13 Then one goes to note 36, and one sees that it
14says they, that is the two junior members of staff, were
15Karssonsen and Schmidtburg of its Eastern territory
16subsection. Minutes of conference, March 6th 1942, on
17Final Solution of Jewish problem. Then your Lordship sees
18inside the bracket right at the end is the same film roll
19number, whatever it is, reference number 371962.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right?
21 A. [Mr Irving] "Eichmann talked crudely at this meeting"-- that is the
22meeting of 6th March attended by Karssonsen and
23Schmidtburg - "of 'forwarding' the Jews to the east, like
24so many head of cattle. The ministry of justice handled
25the report on this new discussion like a hot potato." --
26That is note 38. That is the letter of 12th March, which
1your Lordship has, to Herr Lammers in the Reichkanzlei
2"The Reich Chancellery referred it all to Hitler."
3That is an is interrogation of Hans Ficher, that
4footnote. I ask you to note the words "it all",
5Mr Irving. "Hitler wearily told Hans Lammers that he
6wanted the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until
7after the war was over - a ruling that remarkably few
8historians now seem disposed to quote."
9 That suggests, does it not, to the reader,
10Mr Irving, that the conference on 6th March was about the
11overall solution of the Jewish question?
12 A. [Mr Irving] The final solution of the Jewish question is the title
13given on the minutes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But that was not the question. The question
15is you are conveying to the readers there that it is the
16final solution which is postponed.
17 MR RAMPTON: That was what that conference discussed, is what
18you are telling the reader.
19 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now would you please look at the minute of the conference,
21the one you footnoted?
22 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Please read it yourself. Tell me when you have finished
24and I will ask you a question.
25 A. [Mr Irving] I think I am familiar enough with the document. My
26Lord, can I mention the fact that we have one of my
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