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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 195

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    "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
 1there is a lot of stuff about the files. It says ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I enquire what this is that you are reading from?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, can I ask that too?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. I was trying to save time. It is
 5file D3(i), tab 20, page 101. Has your Lordship got it?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to wait to hear you read it out.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     What was the page number again?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 101.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is one of these reprints I think of an Irving speech or
11presentation or lecture, whatever you call it. It is tab
1220, Mr Irving, with page 101 stamped at the bottom, the
13right-hand side which is page 281 of the document. My
14Lord, I will start again, I am sorry:
15     "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
16proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
17was going on, a story of what Hitler knew about what was
18going on is a document that mysteriously vanished from the
19Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear that it was in the
20files in August 1945 when they were sighted by the
21Americans in Berlin and catalogued". "Sighted", my Lord,
22is spelt with an S, it is "sighted". " ... when they were
23sighted by the Americans in Berlin and catalogued, because
24it appears as item 4 of a five-item list. It then
25vanished from the files by the time they reached Nuremberg
26for the Nuremberg trials, and so could not be produced

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 1there as evidence, and then reappeared now in the files of
 2the Federal archives in Koblenz. That is the file that it
 3is in, Reichsminister of Justice. The heading is: The
 4Treatment of the Jews."
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     The heading of the file.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, the file, not the document?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a document. What is the German, the treatment of
 9the Jews, on this file?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     "Behandlung des Juden", not "Behandlung Mischlinge".
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is a general file no doubt. The Justice Ministry
12had problems to resolve in relation to the Jews, I am
13going to come to that in moment, but that is it right, is
14it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "It is a document, a memo, on a telephone conversation
17inside the Ministry of Justice. From its placing in the
18file we know that this conversation is about March 1942,
19two months after the notorious Wunzie conference when all
20is supposed to have been put in train by Adolf Hitler.
21The Reichsminister, Hans Lammers, was the Chief of the
22German Civil Service. He would be rather like the Prime
23Minister in a normal society. The memo says:
24Reichsminister Lammers informs me that the Fuhrer has
25repeatedly told him that he wants a solution of the Jewish
26problem postponed until after the war is over. And it

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 1goes on about the fact that for this reason all this talk,
 2all this jaw that is going on at present, is completely
 3superfluous." Then in italics, and these are Mr Irving
 4words: "Hitler has repeatedly said: He wants the solution
 5to the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is
 6over." Out of italics, new paragraph:
 7     "Again this is a document which is of extreme
 8embarrassment for the rival school of history. They
 9cannot talk their way around it. They cannot talk their
10way out of it. They close their eyes and when they open
11them it is still there. It refuses to go away. Believe
12me, from this moment on right through to 1943 there are
13further documents showing Hitler interceding, acting,
14trying to stop preventing ..." My Lord, I will stop
16     You agree, Mr Irving ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me, you rather hinted that there is nothing more.
18There is another telephone conversation from Himmler to
19Heydrich on 20th April 1942, again from Hitler's
20headquarters. Himmler telephoned Heydrich: "No
21destruction of the gypsies". It is not without
22significance that you stopped just before I could read
23that out.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is 20th April.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is all part of the sequence.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a bit like Himmler's telephone call to Heydrich of

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 130th November 1941, is it not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     But what quality my records are, Mr Rampton, compared with
 3the quality of the records that you are producing against
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, can we try to keep on the rails. We have not
 6got much longer this afternoon. I want to finish this
 7topic this afternoon.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you implying I am going off the rails?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we can move on.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, that is characteristic, what I just
11read, of the importance which you attach to this little
12document, I mean little in terms of significance, not of
13size, this little document as evidence of, as you propose,
14the fact that Adolf Hitler neither ordered nor knew about
15any massacring of Jews, at any rate up until late 1943?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     It has taken Professor Evans eight pages to waffle his way
17out of it.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is cheap rhetoric, Mr Irving.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not cheap rhetoric. It is exactly correct.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us pass on.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry if Professor Evans irritates you so
22much. You can take your feelings out on him when he is in
23the witness box. The position was this, was it not, at
24this time, Mr Irving, and this is my last but one thing
25for you to think about if you ever come to reconsider your
26position on this document. There was at this time a

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 1squabble going on, and I am paraphrasing, I am using
 2colloquialisms, so please forgive me, the hour is late,
 3between the SS on the one hand who wanted the Mischlinge
 4carted off and the mixed marriages split up, and on the
 5other hand the Ministry of Justice who probably for
 6entirely practical reasons since they would have to make
 7all sorts of laws and decisions, wanted the question left
 8on one side?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is absolutely right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. It is quite natural that Lammers, having
11thought about it, should say: "Well, I think if I asked
12Adolf Hitler he would probably say, well, forget the
13Mischlinge question", and thought to himself: "Well, we
14all know that in the past Hitler said he wants to postpone
15the entlosung until after the war. I will just tell
16Schlegelberger to write that down"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     But that is not what this document says, Mr Rampton, if
18I can ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says: "The Fuhrer has repeatedly said" or "The Fuhrer
20had repeatedly said". We all know that the Fuhrer had
21repeatedly said that way back in 1940 and 41.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you attach importance to the tense there I will
23take expert advice overnight and ask exactly what the
24English translation of that tense should be.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Even if it has, a senior Civil Servant will be well aware
26of the fact that the Fuhrer has in the past repeatedly

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