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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Wednesday, 19th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23 PROCEEDINGS - DAY SIX
1 <Day 6. Wednesday, 19th January 2000
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I wonder if I could ask you for a
3bit of help on really a logistical problem? Some of the
4source material that the experts rely on is fairly
5inaccessible. I was wondering if your team could provide
6me with copies of, I think, just three documents, report
7No. 51, that report from the Einsatzgruppen A, you know
8the one I mean, giving the partisans and the Jews killed?
9 MR RAMPTON: Is that the Jaeger report?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. And also a document which I do not
11think actually I have ever seen, but Muller's's document
12of August 1941.
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes, the Muller order.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I had those separately, it would make life
16 MR RAMPTON: Certainly, my Lord. We have copies of originals
17of all of those.
18 MR IRVING: Muller is in one of the bundles, my Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure it is, but I have not actually seen
20it yet. Is there anything that needs to be done before
21Mr Irving goes back into the box?
22 MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether he has anything.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you like to come back?
24 < MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.
25< Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC, continued.
26 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am going to start in Riga, then I am
1going to go to Yugoslavia and then I am going to go to the
2Warthegau, just to complete my 1941/42 tour of the size of
3the operation, and also make reference to what is plainly
4in some cases direct language and in other cases
5camouflage language. That should not, I hope, take very
6long. Then I will go back to, as it were,
7historiographical error -- I use the word neutrally --
8with the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum.
9 May Mr Irving, please, be given Professor
10Browning's report and at the same time files H3(ii), and
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: Could one turn, please, to page 28 of Professor
14Browning's report? In fact, I will perhaps, because it
15will be important for context later on, start at the
16bottom of page 27, if I may, in paragraph 5.1.6: "Between
17October 18 and 21, 1941, the Foreign Office expert for
18Jewish affairs, Franz Rademacher" -- pausing there,
19Mr Irving, do you disagree with that description of Herr
21 A. [Mr Irving] He was head of the appropriate department in section 2.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] He had a special responsibility in the Foreign Office for
24 A. [Mr Irving] Among other things, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. "and Eichmann's second deputy, Friedrich Suhr,
26visited Belgrade. After the trip Rademacher reported how
1the adult Jewish men in Serbia had been shot by the German
2army." Do you notice that? They have not been shot by the
3SS, they have been shot by the Wehrmacht, have they not?
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Browning's words.
5 MR RAMPTON: Yes. But, if Browning is right, that is Wehrmacht
6and not the SS, is it not?
7 A. [Mr Irving] He has not given a quotation there for that.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, it may be that we would find it if we looked at
10 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Would you like to look at that now?
12 A. [Mr Irving] No. I am not quite happy with that. In fact, you
13remember there is a page of photographs of this kind of
14thing in my book on the Nuremberg trials.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] So not all the systematic -- I must not use that word,
16must I -- not all the mass shootings were done by the SS?
17 A. [Mr Irving] No,. We do not know, of course, why they were shot.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No.
19 A. [Mr Irving] He has just reported how they were shot, but not why.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Perhaps we might be able to deduce that in a little while,
21Mr Irving. " Concerning the fate of the Jewish women,
22children, and elderly, Rademacher reported: 'Then as soon
23as the technical possibility exists within the framework
24of the total solution to the Jewish question, the Jews
25will be deported by waterway to the reception camp in the
1 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you want to make a comment about that?
3 A. [Mr Irving] Well, of course, you are aware of the fact that I am going
4to comment on the fact that he has mistranslated "camps"
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Camp", I see.
7 A. [Mr Irving] There is a substantial difference. "Into the reception
8camps". I think it is a deliberate mistranslation by
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] You must put that to him. I am not going to take it up on
12 A. [Mr Irving] I certainly shall. I am also drawing it to the court's
13attention. It puts a totally different complexion on the
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] Put your eye down, if you will, to the bottom of the page
16where you see the German?
17 A. [Mr Irving] "... In die Auffanglager..."?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Professor Browning, if he has made a deliberate
19mistranslation, it is not a very clever thing to have done
20as he has also given us the German text against which his
21English can be checked.
22 A. [Mr Irving] I have no doubt he is obliged to, but we have spotted his
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not do it in your books, do you, Mr Irving?
25 A. [Mr Irving] You wish me in a thousand page book not only to put the
26English text of the documents, but the German text as
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