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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 187

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    I disagree, with respect. I think that this shows
 1himself, who has other things on his plate. I would
 2suggest that there is a very strong reason to suspect that
 3this is precisely the reason why Himmler slid that figure
 4in, because he apprehended quite likely that the boss was
 5not going to read it.
 6     That may possibly be going too far to impute
 7that to him, but certainly this indication that on this
 8very day documents were being put to Hitler twice and not
 9being read can indicate that that 29th December document
10cannot, therefore, necessarily have been taken as having
11been read and submitted no doubt to Adolf Hitler or taken
12cognisance of it. That is the only point I want to make,
13my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. Is that it?
15 MR IRVING:     That is it.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like to go back into the witness
18 MR RAMPTON:     Can I say two things before that happens? We
19would very much like to see the German version of the
20Kovno train message, if it exists, if Mr Irving has it?
21That was page 6 of the first of these.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it was actually mailed to the instructing
23solicitors, about three weeks ago.
24 MR RAMPTON:     What, the German?
25 MR IRVING:     In a bundle.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The German version of what? Did you say page

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     Page 5 I meant.
 3 MR IRVING:     I will certainly supply it again.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     That would be very kind. If we have had it and it
 5has not got to me, that is entirely our fault.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am still puzzled. Page 5 is in German.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, 5?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You said 6 and then I thought you said 5.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I did say 5.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is in German.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I say no, I am looking at a different document
12with "05" at the bottom.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you not looking at the clip?
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, to this previous one.
15 MR IRVING:     The little bundle probably.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Does your Lordship remember the train load of
17Berlin Jews to Kovno?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do.
19 MR RAMPTON:     J3.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am putting this latest clip into the back
21of J. I know Miss Rogers is keeping track.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 5, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have something in tab 5 already anyway.
24They are all going in there.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, Mr Rampton. You are back on

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I raised the question whether or not the German of
 2this report, or message No. 35 on page 5, exists and, if
 3it does, whether I can see it. If we already have it,
 4then enquiries are perhaps futile.
 5 MR IRVING:     I will certainly produce another copy tomorrow.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     That is very kind. The other thing I should
 7mention because I said I would and your Lordship asked me
 8to is this. We spoke to Professor van Pelt yesterday. He
 9says at this late stage it would be extremely difficult
10for him to alter his arrangements and come later on in the
11case. So, with your Lordship's permission, I will adhere,
12if I may, to my schedule, which is to start
13cross-examination about Auschwitz on Monday when he will
14be here.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must ask Mr Irving whether that is going to
16cause him problems.
17 MR IRVING:     I shall just burn the candle at both ends which is
18nothing new.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but I am conscious that you have a fair
20old burden, being effectively, as it appears, on your
21own. You say if things are getting on top of you.
22 MR IRVING:     It is proper that we should continue with
24 MR RAMPTON:     I am very grateful for that. The other thing
25which arises out of that is that Mr Irving said, I think
26yesterday, that at some stage he would like to have an

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 1argument about the significance and relevance of Auschwitz
 2so far as this case is concerned. Plainly, if I am going
 3to start cross-examining on Monday, we ought to have that
 4argument this week and the question is when. I understand
 5Professor Watt is coming on Thursday. Have I got that
 7 MR IRVING:     That is correct, but I think he will be relatively
 9 MR RAMPTON:     He will, at least, as far as I am concerned. We
10might perhaps do that on Thursday also, because then we
11will know what the framework is before Monday.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Can you just, so I can think about it,
13give me in a couple of sentences what you understand the
14argument to be about?
15 MR RAMPTON:     It has been our case all along -- the book is
16about Holocaust denial. Auschwitz in Mr Irving's
17utterances and certainly in our eyes is at the centre of
18Holocaust belief. It is therefore at the centre of
19Holocaust denial. Mr Irving has flatly denied that there
20were any gas chambers for killing human beings at
21Auschwitz. We say he has done that on the basis of really
22no evidence whatsoever. It illustrates two things: First
23of all, his casual attitude to an important matter of
24history and, secondly, his political attitudes and
25sympathies. That has been in our case from the very
26beginning and still is.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I understand all of that, but what might
 2be going to disappear from the case?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Only this, that Mr Irving may be going to
 4concede -- this is what I do not know because for one
 5reason he never answered our Auschwitz questions -- as we
 6contended and as I have already said in open court, that
 7the Liechter report is bunk. If he is, then I cut a great
 8swathe through my cross-examination. I throw three
 9quarters of it out of the window. I do not need it. That
10why it is important to know what he says.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not sound to me like a terribly long
12argument I am not going to ask you, Mr Irving, to answer
13it now.
14 MR IRVING:     I would just draw attention to the fact that this
15court is seized only with the issues as pleaded and not
16with the issues as portrayed by Mr Rampton.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to pursue this now but the
18fact is that, on the proceedings as I understand them at
19the moment, you rely quite heavily on the Liechter report
20for your proposition that there were no gas chambers at
22 MR IRVING:     I think that your Lordship will realize the error
23of that statement, if I may respectfully put it like that,
24when we come to the cross-examination both of myself and
25of the expert witnesses.

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