Ирвинг против Липштадт
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 5: Electronic Edition
Pages 1 - 5 of 187
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 18th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23 PROCEEDINGS - DAY FIVE
1 <DAY FIVE Tuesday, 18th January 2000
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving, I have been provided with a
4document that you, I understand, want to make some mention
6 MR IRVING: Yes, if I may address the court on this. The only
7important one I want to draw your attention to is page 10.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you do, can I just mention two things
9which will take a few minutes? Do sit down. The first is
10the transcription which, once they have been edited, are
11extremely useful and I think it is extraordinary that it
12can be done so well.
13 MR RAMPTON: So do I.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it did strike me, reading yesterday's
15transcript, that the first 20 minutes of yesterday was
16what you might call administrative discussion, and I think
17it is a waste of energy to have that transcribed.
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Unless either of you disagree, I was going to
20suggest that in future when we have that kind of
21discussion we can just, as it were, stand down the lady
22who is doing the transcribing, and save her energy.
23 MR IRVING: Except, my Lord, for any conclusions that are
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, and any what you might call
26substantive discussion about the issues.
1 MR RAMPTON: Can I also suggest this? If at any stage your
2Lordship makes rulings which you may have to -- I hope not
3but it does happen -- they be transcribed separately as a
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if and when we come to that, that is a
6very good idea.
7 MR RAMPTON: It worked very well last time that this lady was
8in charge of one of my cases.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I also, before Mr Irving deals with this
10document, ask you, Mr Rampton, to help me as to where we
11are at the moment.
12 MR RAMPTON: Where are we going?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Can I just tell you what my concern
14is. It is that I should know at every stage, if possible,
15to what issue the evidence is directed. Your
16cross-examination started out with the topic of the
17killing of the Jews from Berlin.
18 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it has now moved on to the shootings on
20the Eastern Front.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just trying to tie it in with your
23summary of case. I want to make sure I have understood
24correctly, because the section on shootings on the Eastern
25Front is in the part of your summary of case which deals
26with Auschwitz, whereas, as I understand it, the evidence
1that you are eliciting from Mr Irving at the moment is
2really directed mainly to the issue of Hitler's knowledge.
3 MR RAMPTON: The trouble is, of course, that it has both sides
4to it, as does gassing.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because your case is, just so that
6I understand, that the mass shootings, were a prelude to
7an alternative way of killing Jews, namely gassing.
8 MR RAMPTON: Largely speaking but by no means entirely, gassing
9took over from shooting. Both are features of what is
10called the Holocaust and both happened on such a scale,
11logistically speaking and military speaking, that they
12must have come from headquarters, so the whole thing locks
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That has helped me understand how the case is
16 MR RAMPTON: Apart from one or two fiddly things which always
17happen arising from yesterday, I am going to deal with the
18table talks such as remain, not many. Then I am going to
19go on to what happened next, as it were, 42 onwards to
20about September 42.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It will, I think, sometimes help me if one
22can see the big picture, perhaps by way of a few prefatory
23questions, and then go to the individual documents.
24 MR RAMPTON: One of the fiddly but necessary features in all of
25this is that one repeatedly has to make reference to what
26Mr Irving himself has said about these things ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course.
2 MR RAMPTON: --- which clouds the picture, but is unavoidable.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. I quite understand that. Yes,
4thank you. Mr Irving, do you want to say anything about
5that exchange? It was really to clarify my own
6understanding of where exactly we are going to and getting
7to with the evidence.
8 MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. What we in Riding call a topic
9paragraph would be useful.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would certainly help me and it might even
11be that it will help you. It might be that it is right
12that you should have the opportunity to comment on the
13general proposition as well as the particular proposition.
14 MR IRVING: Very well.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You want to say something about this
17 MR IRVING: My Lord, I referred yesterday to the fact that
18I relied on the Weidenfeld translation of Hitler's table
19talk. It is completely proper that I should produce that
20translation to you, which is page 2. You will see it from
21the rostrum at the Reichstag, and so on.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
23 MR IRVING: I do not attach anything in particular but, for
24reasons of procedure, I should have shown that to you,
25having averred that I had used that translation.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. Thank you very much.
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