Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 189

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     Yes. I suspect what is going to happen during the
 1person in the court who will need to look at it
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. I do not want to spend undue time on
 3it, but in some ways it is better to try to find them a
 4spot in the existing bundles where they logically belong
 5rather than having a, sort of, rather random new file
 6created with whatever happens to turn up
 7 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, that is probably right. The only place I can
 8think of to put this at the moment is with Mr Irving's
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, I think that may be right
11 MR IRVING:      In my statement
12 MR RAMPTON:      It has no other natural home that I can think of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, I think that may be right
14 MR IRVING:      Now, I add to your Lordship's misery by giving you
15the transcript of the video which we will now show
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. For the time being, at any rate, we
17shall put this in C4, shall we? Is that what you mean,
18Mr Rampton
19 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, I think it is C4. Unfortunately, mine do not
20any longer correspond to the numbers -- nor does
21Miss Rogers'
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      The other thing is we need a hole puncher
23 MR RAMPTON:      Tab 1, C4, my Lord
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, that is what I thought, at the back
25 MR RAMPTON:      This next one, what is the number of the
26transcript file? The next one goes in D(ii). I do not

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 1know which of the D(ii)s it will be; I have a feeling it
 2is already there actually
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is worth spending just a little bit of
 4time on this sort of thing at the moment because then we
 5can get the system right for the future
 6 MR RAMPTON:      D(ii), tab -- my Lord, the best place for it is at
 7the back of the second volume of D(ii) where it will have
 8a new tab No. 23
 9 MR IRVING:      I believe I am right in saying that this transcript
10was not already provided by the Defendants; this is a new
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No, I think that is right. I think that is
13accepted. Shall we play it now
14 MR IRVING:      My Lord, can I just explain what it is
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
16 MR IRVING:      This is a transcript of a tape of a news programme
17broadcasted in Australia on July 20th 1994 on ABC
18Television in Australia. It is a typical kind of news
19commentary programme, rather like News Night, which starts
20off with the news bulletin and then follows with a
21feature. The feature on this occasion was a feature
22called "The Big Lie". I do not propose to run the whole
23tape, but to start about three minutes in where I have
24positioned it as at the present which is page 2 near the
25top, my Lord. Mr Anthony Lerman of ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes

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 1 MR IRVING:      --- the Institute of Jewish affairs is about to
 2start speaking. The reason I am playing it is because
 3your Lordship will see that this interview provides the
 4Second Defendant, Professor Lipstadt, with a chance to
 5express her opinions unopposed
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
 7 MR IRVING:      I feel it is appropriate to allow her some minutes
 8of the court's time in this rather oblique manner to
 9express her opinions
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
11 MR IRVING:      I understand that she will not be testifying in
12person in this case
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
14 (Excerpt of video was played)
15 MR IRVING:      My Lord, I pause very briefly there and invite your
16attention to one scene in the newsreel that is being
17displaced, black and white newsreel, where we are no
18longer outside the railroad trucks filming the people
19climbing into the railroad trucks, but the camera has
20suddenly positioned itself inside the railroad trucks.
21     I am not going to draw any inferences from that
22at this moment, my Lord, but we are suddenly inside a
23darkened railway truck, taking a shot from the inside to
24the outside as people climb in towards us
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
26 MR IRVING:      That is the only point I make, my Lord. My Lord,

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 1this is Professor van Pelt who will be testifying in this
 2case. This is the actual building which we will be
 3talking quite a lot about over the coming weeks,
 4crematorium No. 2
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      At Auschwitz
 6 MR IRVING:      At Auschwitz -- correction, at Birkenhau, my Lord,
 7which is five miles from Auschwitz
 8 MR IRVING:      My Lord
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Is that all you want from that, Mr Irving
10 MR IRVING:      Yes. Your Lordship will see from the transcript
11the rest concerns Rwanda ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, I have read on and I did not think there
13was anything in the rest of it
14 MR IRVING:      Unless the Defendants object, I would not propose
15to play the rest of the tape
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am sure they will not
17 MR RAMPTON:      No
18 MR IRVING:      My Lord, I do not know if you consider that was a
19useful exercise? I would welcome your Lordship's guidance
20on ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, to be frank, I think not very. In the
22end we have to get down to the specific criticisms of your
23historical approach
24 MR IRVING:      Yes
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      How we are quite going to deal with it, I do
26not know, but I think that is what has to be grappled with

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 1and, from my point of view, the sooner the better
 2 MR IRVING:      We are also concerned with the Second Defendant
 3here. My Lord, I understand she will not be having a
 4chance to speak and I will not be having a chance to
 5cross-examine her. I think it was a useful exercise
 6because it gave us a chance to see her in action. I think
 7she could have handled herself under cross-examination,
 8had she proposed to do so
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      You are entitled to make the point that she
10is, apparently, not going to give evidence. I have that
11point and I have now had the opportunity of seeing her on
12the interview
13 MR IRVING:      The other point I wish to draw attention to in the
14video is that the other witness who will be called,
15Professor van Pelt, draws great attention to the building
16he was standing on which was crematorium No. 2 in
17Birkenhau. He points to the holes, he points to the
18room. He says, "This is where it happened". In another
19video which I will show on another occasion, my Lord, he
20goes into much greater detail more emotionally saying,
21 "This is where it happened, this was the geographical
22centre of the Holocaust", and so on
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      You say that is a post war reconstruction
24 MR IRVING:      No, my Lord. We say something different about
25that. This is crematorium building in Birkenhau. What we
26say about that is that it was not what the Defence make

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