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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 6th March 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY THIRTY
1 <Day 30
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
4 MR IRVING: May it please the court, may I just first begin, as
5this is our last informal session, so to speak, before we
6come to more formal matters, just by expressing words of
7my appreciation for the work put in by the defending firms
8of solicitors. They have had an extra burden put upon
9them by the fact that I am a litigant in person and I
10deeply appreciate their efficiency in this matter.
11I appreciate their help in this matter.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very fair of you to say that.
13 MR IRVING: It is proper I should say that as a matter of
14record. My Lord, I have two or three matters to deal with
15today. If I can propose the agenda for this morning? It
16would be to deal with these two or three matters of mine
17first which include my points on the video films, then
18subsequently to take up the matter of your Lordship's list
19of issues, unless your Lordship wishes to put it the other
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That sounds to me perfectly sensible.
22Mr Rampton, you do not object to that, do you?
23 MR RAMPTON: What I would suggest we do is Mr Irving makes his
24points -- I had thought there was only the one individual
25video in question actually which was the Halle video -- if
26he makes on that, then Mr Julius, if your Lordship will,
1will reply on that because he knows the story, I do not,
2and if it goes through me, I am likely to get it wrong.
3Then, when we have done that and your Lordship has made
4whatever ruling or decision is necessary, then we should
5go on to the list. I also want to say something about the
6closing speeches which, looking at the transcript of
7Thursday evening, it ended up in a bit of a muddle. I do
8not really know what it is that I am supposed to do, but
9I would like to go back to that and revisit that, if I
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sure. So, Mr Irving, let us start off with
13 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have put a small bundle, or two or three
14small bundles, in front of your Lordship. The one marked
15"A" in the top right-hand corner, as your Lordship will
16remember, there was a question as to whether the diary
17entry July 24th on a certain day was complete, and I have
18now disclosed voluntarily the entire diary entries for
19that week, effectively, which shows there was one sentence
20redacted. There was a suspicion, my Lord, that there
21might have been some reference to the National Alliance in
22that opening sentence and ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And there is not.
24 MR IRVING: There is not. If the Defendants wish to send
25somebody to inspect the actual computer disk on which that
26entry is recorded, just to make sure it has not been
1amended in some way, then I would be quite happy to ----
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I doubt whether they will want to.
3 MR IRVING: --- to establish. My Lord, little bundle B ----
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am going to just put these
5documents where they belong. I will not do it now but can
6somebody give me the ----
7 MR RAMPTON: RWE 1. I cannot tell you -- tab 2.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
9 MR IRVING: Little bundle B. Your Lordship wished to have a
10note on the BBC gas chamber propaganda, if I can put it
11like that. I have put together a two-page summary of a
12broadcast made by one broadcaster, Thomas Mann, the famous
13German novelist, in November, January and June 1942 which
14I think are the material dates, before the Rigner letter
15from Geneva, and attached to that are photocopies from the
16published version of his broadcasts, and the footnotes are
17the references from his diaries which fix the actual dates
18when the broadcasts were made.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did he talk about----
20 MR IRVING: He did talk about gas chambers.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- gas chambers?
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, he talked about mass gassings at line 2 of
23the second page. He talked in the second item, which is
24dated January 1942, of 400 Young Dutch Jews being sent as
25test objects for poisons gas. He corrected that on June
2626th 1942 to say it was 800 who had been to Mauthausen
1where they were gassed.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Again where is that?
3 MR IRVING: My Lord, you have already had something like that
4similar, but not in that neater form.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Unfortunately, I have not, I think, now got
7 MR IRVING: I will certainly refer to that in my closing
8address with all that detail, and so you might wish just
9to throw those away.
10 MS ROGERS: For ease, if you put in J2, tab 19, which is the
11next empty tab, we will provide an index to Mr Irving of
12everything that is in J2 and ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have done that almost up-to-date already,
15 MR IRVING: My Lord, the next matter is the Halle video or
16videos. If your Lordship will turn to bundle C, which is
17somewhat thicker, but I am not going to take you through
18all the documents on that, it was a bundle put together
19for the actual action in a lower court before Master
20Trench. It is bundle C. I have inserted just behind the
21index a photograph of the three original videos which fell
22into my hands. They look rather tatty and I attach
23importance to that.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say they fell into your hands, you
25got these from this week, did you?
26 MR IRVING: Let me first of all set out ----
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