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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

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    That suggests to me that probably this ought
 1to be done at a later stage.
 2 MR IRVING:     By way of submission.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Perhaps first thing tomorrow or at the end of
 4cross-examination tomorrow, if we go into tomorrow.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I will need to have them looked at by German
 6speakers in the usual way.
 7 MR IRVING:     There are two or three more letters from me to
 8German Embassies and people like that, which show that
 9I went about things in a perfectly proper way, asking
10whether the bodies that invited me to speak were legal and
11lawful and constitutional and so on.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not want to get disproportionate about
14 MR RAMPTON:     I would only say this about that kind of material,
15whether it advances the matter one way or another, I
16rather doubt, but self-serving protests by Mr Irving are
17not evidence that it did not happen.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I appreciate that.
19 MR IRVING:     I did not catch that, but it is my veracity which
20I am concerned about that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You are obviously concerned about that.
22I have indicated the way I think we ought to deal with it
23so we will leave it until tomorrow. That concludes the
24points you wanted to raise?
25 MR IRVING:     Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the next step is for you to go into

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 1the witness box, please. You are obviously still under
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, before I start, I announce the first
 4thing, if I may, that I am going to do. Your Lordship
 5will remember the short sequence we had from the
 6negationists, or whatever you call it, meeting at Hagenau
 7in Azas in November 1989, and the reference to the sedan
 8chair and the telephone box. What I am now going to do,
 9with your Lordship's leave, is show a short section from a
10speech that Mr Irving made at Milton, Ontario, on 5th
11October 1991, that is to say almost two years after the
12Hagenau event. Its transcript is at K3, tab 10.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this what is called the Moers speech?
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not Moers. This is Milton, Ontario,
15which I think is in Canada. It is more of the same. Then
16I shall ask Mr Irving some questions about it in the light
17of the questions he asked Professor Funke yesterday.
18 < Mr Irving, recalled.
19< Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC continued.
20 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I think the relevant part of the
21transcript is pages 17 and 18. Have I got that right?
22The television seems to be defunct.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to start with this, Mr Rampton?
24 MR RAMPTON:     It is a question of continuity, and it is fresh in
25everybody's mind from yesterday. I find it difficult to
26cross-examine with the witness box overrun by

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 2 (Video played)
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Stop there, thank you. Mr Irving, that is the
 4same story in a rather more expanded version that you told
 5to your audience at Hagenau in November 1989, is it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where does it come from?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     There are -- which ones are you talking about? The
 9conveyor belts, the swimming pool, the electric shock that
10comes from Pravda, February 1945?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a whole bundle of these, there is a whole series
13of these eyewitness accounts which have been given in
14various postwar trials, 1945, 1946, 1947. These are the
15accounts that are not quoted by the Holocaust historians
16for obvious reasons.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where did the telephone box come from?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Which part of the story are you asking for, about the box,
19the one man ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Telephone box.
21 MR RAMPTON:     The telephone box?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The telephone box?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The telephone box. "Well, the answer is", says Irving,
24"it is disguised as a telephone box, this one man gas
25chamber. This is the mentality of the people who invent
26these eyewitness stories. It is a disguised as a

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 1telephone and if I am a man who has escaped from
 2Auschwitz, a harrowing experience, and I am standing
 3around in the Polish countryside and suddenly a telephone
 4box" ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Appears from nowhere, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "where there was not one a few minutes ago and two
 7German soldiers standing around looking like nothing,
 8nothing is going to get me inside that phone box. The
 9eyewitnesses, plural, say they got you to get inside by
10having the phone inside ringing". Where does that little
11anecdote come from? How many sources?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     The phone ringing is an embellishment. But the disguised
13as a telephone box is in the eyewitness account.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many eyewitness accounts and who were the people that
15told those stories?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Alleged survivors of Auschwitz.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Certainly one account.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Eyewitnesses, plural?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     That, obviously, is a slip of the tongue.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is not. It is a deliberate exaggeration, is it?
22You got some good laughs with this little story?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is such a ludicrous story and it so clearly
24exaggerates the problem, it so clearly illustrates the
25problem with the eyewitness accounts of Auschwitz ----
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, really?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     --- this and the other similar accounts. There is the
 2conveyor belt, there is the swimming pool, there is the
 3electric shock, there is the killed in steam chambers, all
 4these stories which come out of the earlier accounts, if
 5you read the account published by Pravda, I think on
 6February 2nd 1945, there is the first description of the
 7conveyor belt. These are never quoted by the modern
 8historians. Even the Gerstein report that you have which
 9is an alleged eyewitness account had, of course, 130 foot
10high mountain of shoes. These details need to be brought
11to the attention of the public so they can see what the
12problem is and how selectively the historians use the
13eyewitness accounts. They take the ones that they like
14and they ignore the ones that are obviously baloney.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, do you see any purpose in a serious historian,
16I mean a serious, reputable historian, reciting simply for
17the purpose of knocking it over, a story, if it indeed is
18a story, which is quite obviously untrue?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, as we have heard in this court, Mr Rampton, the
20factory of death story, as far as crematorium (ii) in
21Auschwitz is concerned, relies on three legs, it is a
22stool with three legs, one is the eyewitnesses, one is the
23discrepancies between the blueprints or the architectural
24drawings and the other one is the German documentation.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Quite a lot more than that.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     

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