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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 23: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 21st February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-THREE
1 < Day 23 Monday, 21st February 2000.
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I just want to say something to
4Mr Rampton, if I may, first off. Do you think it would be
5possible, Mr Rampton, to get an index prepared for these
6files that have come into existence during the course of
7the trial? I mean J.
8 MR RAMPTON: In hand ----
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
10 MR RAMPTON: --- already.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I am finding with the transcript so
12often you cannot actually discover where it is from the
13transcript and then you have to wade through.
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I quite agree, but that is in hand. Slowly a
15process is happening whereby each topic will have a
16separate distilled file.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am glad it is in hand. Thank you very
19 MR RAMPTON: I have nearly finished the one on history and then
20there will be others.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving.
22 MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, three minor
23points to deal with before I resume the cross-examination
24of Professor Evans. First of all, the Defendants provided
25to me, or served on me at about 6.30, in other words after
26close of business on Friday, a 24-page glossary of
1meanings of German words prepared by a Dr Longerich, who
2is going to be the next expert witness. I am not very
3happy about this way of doing things. They have been
4working on this case now for 18 months or more, and to
5have quite an important document like that provided to me
6at literally the last moment is awkward.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I sympathise with that because you have quite
8a lot on your plate already but, having said that, I think
9I would probably be able to guess at the contents of a
10good deal of it because we have been through a lot in the
11evidence, have we not, like Ausrotten and so on.
12 MR IRVING: It is perfectly proper that they should served such
13a glossary as that because experts are allowed to give
14evidence on the meaning of foreign words, as I understand
15it, and that is what this largely is. It is looking at
16various words in various documents partly pre-empting what
17I was about to say anyway. I am unhappy about the
18document being put to your Lordship in that form without
19your Lordship realising that it has only just been put to
20me. It is rather like the catalogue of extracts, a very
21handy reference form for your Lordship, rather like a
22printed index. I am just unhappy that it has been done at
23this very late moment.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will certainly bear that in mind.
25 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship has not got one, so can I pass one
26up. It is really a most helpful document, I find. That
1is in English. The original was in German. It is
2relatively uncontroversial, I would have thought.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be controversial, but nothing new?
4 MR RAMPTON: There is nothing new in it. It is a review of the
5usage of certain key words. That is all it is.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I understand it really, there is pretty
7much agreement that a lot of these words are either in
8themselves equivocal, they can mean something sinister or
9not, or in many cases the words are innocent, ostensibly
10innocent words are used to camouflage a sinister meaning.
11So in the end maybe not a great deal turns on it.
12 MR IRVING: It may be helpful in some respects, it may be
13contentious in others, my Lord. That is all I want to say
14before I actually start the cross-examination on that. It
15is neither fish nor fowl again. Like so much that has
16been done in this case, it is neither the expert report
17which should have been served last August, nor is it
18something being put to the witness in the witness box. It
19is kind of halfway in between.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I tell you, I will bear that in mind when
21we get to it. Mr Rampton, shall I put this into
23 MR RAMPTON: Yes, would your Lordship put it in the front of
24Longerich, I would recommend.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26 MR IRVING: My Lord, the next point is of rather more
1substance. This concerns the matter of the expert reports
2which have been withdrawn. I am sorry, they have not been
3withdrawn, but on which no cross-examination will be
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 MR IRVING: Your Lordship and I have both raised our eyebrows
7over the possibility of putting in reports without the
8witnesses to back them up as far as expert reports are
9concerned. I am going to invite your Lordship to direct
10that the Defendants should produce a skeleton, in effect,
11setting out the authorities and statutes on which they
12rely, if they intend to put in the reports without the
13experts. I think that would be perfectly proper to enable
14me to argue the matter at a later date.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think I said, when Mr Rampton
16indicated that that was what they were intending to do,
17that it was the first time I had come across this being
18done in relation to experts' reports. I think it is
19reasonable that, subject to what Mr Rampton may wish to
20say, you should have chapter and verse presented to you
21for an entitlement to take that course with an expert, but
22I will hear what Mr Rampton says obviously.
23 MR IRVING: Obviously, if I am not going to be required to
24present evidence or to impugn those experts reports,
25I should be told as early as possible because that will
26halt a major amount of the work that is still ahead of me.
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