ایروینگ در مقابل لیپستادت
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition
Pages 201 - 205 of 207
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1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is right. Just before this conference, a few weeks
2before South of France was occupied by axis troops. This
3is at a point when the transports of Jews from France had
4already begun. It began in the early Spring 1942 directly
5to Auschwitz and carried on through the Summer. About
613,000 Jews were arrested in Paris in July. Transports
7then began from the Vichy region. The background to this
8is the fact that they have now got control over the whole
9of France and they are not reliant on the Vichy government
10any more. So in the following February more transports in
11considerable number began to Auschwitz and Sobibor.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Very briefly, you will find on those two pages of December
1310th 1942 that two words were used for how the Jews were
14going be moved on disposed of: Abshafen on one document
15in Himmler's handwriting, and in the typed memorandum he
16then says they are going to be abtransportiered?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Would you like to tell the court what your conclusions are
19from the use of those two words?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] This first document is just Himmler's own private note, is
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The second one is a document for circulation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Is the typed version which then was generated after that?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. So he is, in other words, using a euphemism in the
26document that has to be circulated, and being more
1explicit in his own notes.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] How would you translate "abshafen?
3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] " Abolish.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you accepted earlier on that did mean
6liquidate, Mr Irving.
7 MR IRVING: No, my Lord, not necessarily.
8 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful, except
9of course than perhaps "abolish". He accepted, it is
10somewhere in one of his books, the translation "dispose
12 MR IRVING: Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON: I do not know about in German, but in English it
14is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an
15entirely sinister sense.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that may be what I had in mind.
17 MR IRVING: If we then go to the next document, the third
18document in this series which is dated just December 1942,
19you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and
20saying there is going to be a special camp set up to house
21valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is that
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that
24Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all
25those who have influential relations in America should be
26put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about
110,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from
2these three countries who have influential relations in
3America. They have got to work there, but he adds the
4unusual condition that they have to work under conditions
5which keep them alive and healthy.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Good for him. So it is a rather different matter. Yes,
8that is what it says.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about the
10Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews were
11regarded as being a less preservable species in camps,
12were they not? There was less importance attached to
13keeping them alive?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small
15minority. One would guess maybe that this document came
16before the outbreak of war with America. It is difficult
17it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. There is no day though on it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is no day. It is just the month, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, bottom left.
23 MR IRVING: My Lord, the only other document I am going to look
24at in the chain is October 1943.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr
26Irving, can you remind me? It is so long since we started
1it I cannot remember.
2 MR IRVING: The chain started off as the chain of documents
3showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding out
4his hand to protect categories of Jews.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought that was probably the answer.
6 MR IRVING: But occasionally other documents I have put them
7into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton,
8because I thought that otherwise he will say: Well, what
9about this and what about that?
10 MR RAMPTON: And he is still going to say that.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me comment there, the second document about the
12special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries with
13relations in America, it does not actually involve Hitler
14at all. This is an idea of Himmler's.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, it rather suggests that the other
16Jews are not going to have such a happy fate.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where he
18says they have to be kept in work camps under conditions
19that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that is
21 MR IRVING: Was this a time when there were major epidemics
22raging in the camps? In other words, this is not just
23simply saying that you have to take great care that no
24epidemic breaks out in this camp?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not just that. They are saying they are not to be
26worked to death and special care is to be taken that they
1do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is the
2implication. This is a very special category of people we
3are talking about here, with rich relations, influential
4relations in America.
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not
6going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of my
7chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes
8looking at the two documents on that, if I may.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because this is the case where you say Hitler
10intervened to save them?
11 MR IRVING: As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have to
15discuss it at length, I fear. I understood we were going
16on to half past 4 today?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving.
18 MR IRVING: I am shaking my head.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. What have you managed to do
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am able to come. I have made arrangements to come on
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. I see why you say that, because the
24Roman Jews are quite complicated.
25 MR IRVING: Shall we leave it until Monday then?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to have a go.
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