Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition

Pages 1 - 201 of 201


 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Wednesday, 16th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-ONE
26

.   P-1



 1 <Day 21 Wednesday, 16th February 2000
 2 (10.30 a.m.)
 3< Professor Evans, recalled.
 4< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving?
 6 MR IRVING:     May it please the court. My Lord, this morning
 7I shall deal with the Reichskristallnacht, the Night of
 8Broken Glass, and then, as a useful exercise, I will put
 9before the witness a bundle of documents, which is the
10chain of documents referred to. We will go through that
11and invite his opinion on that as an expert on the various
12documents.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Certainly.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we left the operation yesterday, we left
15the battlefield, so to speak, I had advanced about 250
16pages into the minefield. There were a number of smoke
17screens which had been laid by the witness and others and
18by the documents, and I am now going to proceed through
19the smoke screen into Reichskristallnacht. But, first of
20all, I wanted to ask the witness briefly about page 210 of
21your expert report, which is a matter which will be
22covered by the documents later on, where you criticised
23the fact that ----
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry, I have not brought this with me. I thought we
25were going to start with Kristallnacht. Can I have a
26copy?

.   P-2



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      I will just read it out, it is just one sentence.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I will have a copy, please.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Let me put it to you. You say that my position on Hitler
 4on all these issues is highly favourable to Hitler.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      You criticise me for adopting positions on Adolf Hitler
 7and his decisions that are sometimes favourable.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me to where I do that, please?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      On page 210 you say: "Irving's position on all these
10issues" -- this is paragraph 4.1.10 -- "is highly
11favourable to Hitler".
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am commenting in this section on the allegation by
13Professor Lipstadt that you are, I think, "an admirer of
14Hitler". I cannot exactly remember the precise words.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is one of them, yes.
16 MR IRVING:     Which is why I am asking you to expand on this one
17sentence where you say that Irving adopts a position on
18all these issues, which we have been into before, which is
19highly favourable on Hitler, and I was asking you whether
20it is wrong for an historian at any time to say things
21that are favourable to Hitler.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If that goes against the evidence, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does it not put me in precisely the same position as an
24historian like AJP Taylor, who, as you pointed out, is not
25a Professor, not an academic, but a very well-known
26perhaps even notorious writer before his death, and who

.   P-3



 1was also very well-known for adopting positions where he
 2came under criticism for having adopted positions which
 3were also favourable to Hitler on certain points?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, of course, AJP Taylor was an academic. He was a
 5Fellow and tutor in modern history at Magdalen College,
 6Oxford for many years. Indeed, he was a Professor towards
 7the end of his life in another university. He was heavily
 8criticized. There was a long debate about that. He was
 9not shown, to my knowledge, to have deliberately
10manipulated or falsified historical evidence in order to
11arrive at what was alleged to be. And what he denied to
12be. His position.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      But he did adopt positions that were on occasions
14favourable to Hitler, did he not?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If you can cite them to me?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Here is a copy of AJP Taylor's very well-known book,
17'Origins of the Second World War'. Can you turn to page
187, for example? He says there, for example, does he not:
19"Historians often dislike what happened or wished it had
20happened differently. There is nothing they can do about
21it. They have to state the truth as they see it without
22worrying whether this shocks or confirms existing
23prejudices." Is that a fair statement of the position of
24an historian?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      He should write what he finds, what happened and why?

.   P-4



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Even if he is going to be accused of saying things that
 3are favourable to Hitler or Stalin, or Churchill, or
 4Roosevelt, he just should write what he finds. The fact
 5that he writes something favourable to a great personality
 6of history is not ipso facto perverse?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. It depends how you arrive at that position, of
 8course.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then there is another position I am accused of in my
10books, is there not, that by my books or by my writings
11I give comfort to people on the extreme right. Is that
12one of the allegations against me?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You would have to point that out. I do not think
14I comment on that in this section.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      On pages 8 to 9, does he also write: "I have no sympathy
16with those in this country who complain that my book had
17been welcomed, mistakenly or not, by former supporters of
18Hitler. This seems to me a disgraceful argument to be
19used against a work of history. The historian must not
20hesitate, even if his books lend aid or comfort to the
21Queen's enemies or even the common enemies of mankind".
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, you did leave out a little about there. Let me read
23that last sentence again: "An historian must not
24hesitate, even if his books lend aid and comfort to the
25Queen's enemies though mine did not, or even to the common
26enemies of mankind". You did not indicate there to the

.   P-5



 1court that you were leaving out those four words, "though
 2mine did not".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then he continues: "It is not my fault that according to
 4the record the Austrian crisis (that is 1938) was launched
 5by Schuschnigg, not by Hitler, nor my fault that the
 6British government, according to the record, and not
 7Hitler took the lead in dismembering Czechoslovakia", and
 8so on. In other words, he is just writing what he finds,
 9even though it comes out in favour of Hitler?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is writing what he has argued that he found, and of
11course there is a great deal of argument about this. But
12I do not think that he would have accepted, and it is very
13difficult, that he is favouring Hitler. "Destroying these
14legends is not a vindication of Hitler", he says.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then he also refers to specific episodes like the
16Reichstag fire and other controversial episodes in history
17where he claims the right to take a different line from
18that commonly or politically correctly adopted by
19historians up to that point. He says, if he does so, this
20is not necessarily to be taken as a vindication of Hitler,
21he is just doing his job as an historian.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words, I am not unique in my standpoint; there
24are other historians who accept, who on occasion find
25words of admiration for Adolf Hitler's military
26capacities, is that right?

.   P-6



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I really do not know. The point is, Mr Irving ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor Evans, you are holding yourself out to this
 3court as an expert on the historiography of the Third
 4Reich, and now you are saying you do not know if any
 5historians----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I imagine there are. I am not a military historian, but
 7I would accept that there are historians who have had
 8words of praise for some of Hitler's military
 9interventions, most certainly, yes, but it is not really
10what is at issue here in this case.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right, Mr Irving, is it not?
12We are really not concerned with Hitler as a military
13figure. I think I am right in saying that all the
14criticism of you relates to your writings about his, for
15want of a better word, political persona, not his military
16persona.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I respectfully disagree. I think the
18allegation is that I have written a book that is an
19admiring work, a panogyric.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     And this encompasses the whole Hitler, not just the
22bits that the Defendants may wish to seize upon.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is right that they say you have
24written a book which admires Hitler, but the criticism, as
25I understand it, is of the way in which you write about
26his political activities, not his military activities.

.   P-7



 1Mr Rampton, is that right as a very general summary, just
 2so that we know where we stand?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It may or may not be thought a good thing to write
 4a book which has elements, perhaps significant elements,
 5which are favourable to Hitler, but that has nothing to do
 6with this action. What is said here is that this book is
 7in large part an apology for Hitler, in particular those
 8aspects of Hitler's thinking and actions which reflect
 9upon what happened to Jews in Europe during Hitler's
10reign, if I can call it that. Allied to that, and indeed
11inseparable from it, is the criticism which is perhaps
12even more important, that this picture of Hitler which
13Mr Irving paints in his book is arrived at by bending and
14distorting the evidence.
15 MR IRVING:     These are two separate issues. At present we are
16dealing solely with the issue with whether it is
17legitimate for a historian to write a book which is in
18part admiring of Adolf's Hitler capabilities in whichever
19field, and this was the burden of my opening remarks to
20the court. I thought as a general matter I would deal
21with that first.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think anyone is suggesting that the
23historian is not entitled to express admiration, if the
24facts and the evidence justify it. I think that is a
25historian's duty. I do not think anyone would doubt that.
26 MR IRVING:     But your Lordship is familiar with the fact that,

.   P-8



 1as soon as one utters the slightest positive word about
 2"that man", as he used to be called in Tommy Handley's
 3day, one then comes under the full guns of one's enemies,
 4who say, there he is saying that he did the right thing in
 5the battle of France, or there he is saying that he did
 6the right thing over Czechoslovakia. There are different
 7opinions. Some historians take this point of view, some
 8historians take that point of view, and AJP Taylor is just
 9one example I wanted to present because he is so well
10known. No-one has suggested that he did so for any
11perverse reasons, or at any rate they no longer do so, and
12whether the reasons were perverse, or whether I distorted
13or manipulated is the second part of the argument with
14which we are now occupying the court. We will now turn to
15the Reichskristallnacht, please. I am going to ask you a
16few general questions, first, Professor, if I may.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, I am just trying to keep my desk a bit clear.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Housekeeping, yes. Your researchers who were doing the
19research for you, and possibly even you yourself, made use
20of or looked into my files and the research that I had
21done when I wrote my various books from the 1970s
22onwards. Is that correct?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is correct, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      You looked in my files, in my collection, the Irving
25collection, in the Institute of History in Munich, is that
26right?

.   P-9



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you look in the equivalent collections which are in
 3the Federal archives in Koblenz?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I believe we did, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you also look not just at the collections of documents
 6which were in Munich but also at the collections of
 7correspondence that I had donated to the Institute of
 8History in Munich between myself and, for example, Adolf
 9Hitler's private staff?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think we did, yes. We looked at as much as we could
11find in the time available.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      The time available was 18 months, is that right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      To write the whole report, yes, of which this is only one
14chapter.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      You had a large number of people, or relatively large
16number of people, working on your staff?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Two.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It was probably several man years.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Two. I had two people, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Again, it was several man years in the compilation of
21these particular aspects?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, not really, no, because everybody of course had
23other things to do at the same time. None of us was
24working full time on this.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. Do you think that any documents in my collection
26would have eluded your attention, or your researchers'

.   P-10



 1attention?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I hope not, but it is always possible.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is always possible. So, although it is possible that
 4some of my documents on which I base my book may have
 5eluded your attention, you quite boldly used these very
 6repugnant words about my writing, about having distorted,
 7manipulated and had no possible evidence, and this kind of
 8thing?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If you can show me that there are important documents in
10your collections which run against what I have said, then
11obviously I will accept it. I said I hoped that important
12documents did not elude our attention, and I have based
13what I say here and what I write here on the most thorough
14possible research in the time available.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      On balance, you disapprove of my method of relying to any
16great degree on the statements made either to me or to
17postwar investigators and historians and interrogators by
18the members of Adolf Hitler's private staff, is that
19correct?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We have been over this ground, Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, let us go through it again.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is later testimony, sometimes given many years after
23the event, and therefore has to be treated with caution on
24those grounds alone. Other things being equal, as it
25were, one gives somewhat greater weight to contemporary
26evidence such as the Goebbels diaries. And, in addition

.   P-11



 1of course, we have already discussed this, members of
 2Hitler's entourage had good reason not to tell the whole
 3truth.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that you attach great importance to Goebbels'
 5diaries. Would you look at footnote 2 on page 233 of your
 6report, please? You list there a number of these books
 7that are on your shelves in your book lined cave where you
 8do your writing, if I can put like that. Do any those
 9books show any sign of having used the Goebbels diaries?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think that is a very fair question, Mr Irving.
11The point here is simply that I am introducing the section
12on the Reichskristallnacht. I say in sentence to which
13that is a footnote: "The episode is well-known to
14historians. There have been many important and scholarly
15studies based on a painstaking examination of the original
16archival documentation. These include two accounts by
17staff members of the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich
18and other detailed studies", and so on. This is simply an
19indication to the court of the fact that this is a
20well-known episode about which historians are writing.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you accept that every single item you refer to on that
22page, including all the books and all the well-known
23studies, and the work of historians at the institute, all
24emerged before I brought back the Goebbels diaries from
25Moscow relating to precisely this episode? Therefore they
26are, to that degree, superseded, they are old hat?

.   P-12



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would not describe them as old hat, Mr Irving, and in
 2any case the point I am making there is that this has been
 3the subject of many studies over many years. This is not
 4something that has suddenly emerged into our knowledge
 5with the Goebbels diaries.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now, you have relied in your footnote 1 on Hermann Graml
 7(who I know personally). He wrote that book in 1956, did
 8he not?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed, yes, that is right.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you aware of the fact that I submitted my entire
11chapter on this Reichskristallnacht to Hermann Graml for
12his, not clearance, but for his edification and for him to
13comment on at the time I wrote the book?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I am not, no.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      But would you have expected to find that in the
16correspondence put before you in the discovery process?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I did not, no. If it is there, it is there. You can show
18it to me.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Again the second source in footnote 1 is 1957 which is,
20what, 33 years old?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed. I am trying to establish here, Mr Irving, the
22fact that this is a well-known episode in history which
23has been studied over many years by many historians. I am
24not saying that all these books are absolutely right or
25that they are the last word or that they are up-to-date.
26I am saying they are works by scholars which in their day,

.   P-13



 1if you like, were advances of knowledge.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      And these scholars have nothing to learn from us
 3revisionists then?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It depends what you mean by "revisionists".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      If somebody brought back from Moscow the Goebbels'
 6diaries, would that not be a contribution to the
 7historical debate?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is something different. You do not have to be a
 9revisionist to bring back the Goebbels diaries from
10Moscow.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I expect you will come shortly,
12will you not, to what it is in Goebbels diaries that you
13say casts important light on the events of
14Reichskristallnacht?
15 MR IRVING:     I am laying the groundwork for the
16cross-examination, my Lord. I am establishing what this
17expert's credentials are for this particular matter.
18Professor Evans, you have worked for five years in
19Germany?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      On and off over a period of about 30 years, yes, if you
21totted up all the times I had been there, I have not done
22it, but it would come to, I do not know, five, six years.
23It is difficult to say.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      But do you think that your knowledge of German is
25sufficient to understand all the vernacular and all the
26slang phrases and all the nuances?

.   P-14



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mostly, yes. I would not say it was absolutely perfect.
 2It is impossible for any foreigner to enter totally 100
 3per cent into the inside of a language.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you say that I having worked in Germany for 39 years
 5on and off would have possibly a better knowledge of
 6German than yourself?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is possible and I do not dispute the fact you have a
 8very good knowledge indeed of German, Mr Irving.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it right that the sources that you have relied upon by
10way of preference are largely war criminals who were
11properly convicted at Nuremberg and elsewhere for their
12activities, whereas not one of Adolf Hitler's personal
13private staff was ever convicted as a war criminal?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I do not think that is true.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which part is not true, that not one of Adolf Hitler's
16staff ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, no. The fact that I have relied on these sources and
18in any case that -- I mean, relied, for example, on the
19Goebbels' diaries.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was Karl Wolff a war criminal?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He was sentenced in 1964.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was Max Jutner a war criminal?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Now, I am not sure, but in any case the point here ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am just commenting on the odd feature that you rely on
25Nazi war criminals and ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to point out to me, Mr Irving, where I rely

.   P-15



 1on the testimony of Max Jutner, and so on.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, if I may say so, that is an entirely
 3fair observation. I quite understand the criticism. You
 4are saying he has relied on convicted criminals for ----
 5 MR IRVING:     In preference to people who have not got a criminal
 6record.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- his contentions. But let us get to the
 8nitty-gritty of it. I think that is what the witness is
 9saying and I think it is a fair point, if I may say so,
10Mr Irving. Where does he rely on Wolff?
11 MR IRVING:     It is a comment on the quality of sources, my Lord,
12and the quality of sources is very important, particularly
13in a matter like this.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree, but this point only has any
15impact if you show me where he relies on Wolff or
16whoever ----
17 MR IRVING:     It is where I rely on rather than where he relies
18on, my Lord, which we are now going to come to. Would you
19look at the little bundle of documents which was handed to
20you this morning which begins with the word "Deckblatt",
21"Sammlung Irving Deckblatt", do you find that?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you would just briefly scan it you, would you agree
24that this appears to be the covering sheet of a file of
25documents relating to one Wilhelm Bruckner?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.

.   P-16



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know who Wilhelm Bruckner was?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He was the head of Hitler's, a sort of personal or
 3adjutantur in the 1930s.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      He was dismissed in ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      '40.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- humiliating circumstances in December 1940, is that
 7correct?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He was also a senior officer of the SA, the brown
 9shirts, and he was an old Nazi -- he seems to have been
10already active before 1923.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. So that he was Hitler's chief person adjutant at the
12material time, namely the Reichskristallnacht?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      In November 1938?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      From this covering sheet, it is evidence that I collected
17a number of papers and manuscripts and affidavits and
18letters from him?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      In fact, this collection was obtained by me from his son,
21Manfred, in March 1971 and, as was my way, I denoted all
22these documents to the Institute of History in Munich?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you find this file of documents?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Now, what we found was a summary of a statement by,
26I mean, you are referring here to page 252 of my report,

.   P-17



 1is that correct?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am asking you just about this one document in front of
 3you at present about the Irving collection?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, yes, but Bruckner is dealt with on page 252 of my
 5report, and I think we should really look at that to get
 6the context.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, I am asking you to answer my questions first please
 8which is ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to point out the context here.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- have you bothered to find the Bruckner papers on which
11I relied in writing this passage?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, now, we tried to chase up a reference of yours which
13was very difficult to find in the Institute for
14Contemporary History, and the only thing that we could
15find, because you did not point very carefully to it, was
16a summary statement of what Bruckner said.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the answer to my question is, no, you did not find the
18file of Wilhelm Bruchner papers of which this was the
19covering sheet?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This "Deckblatt" here.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but this covering sheet was actually brought to your
22attention, was it not? It was part of my discovery along
23with 500 other such covering sheets?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is just a covering sheet, Mr Irving.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but in the discovery there were 500 such covering
26sheets, there were 500 collections of documents that

.   P-18



 1I gave to the Institute of History, and this was one of
 2them, and it was copied by the instructing solicitors so
 3you were aware that this file on Wilhelm Bruckner existed
 4in the Institute and yet you did not find it or use it?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, what does it say? Let us have a look at the
 6description under No. 1: "Brief description" -- I am
 7translating here [German- documents not provided].
 8"Documents from the"...
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Wilhelm Bruchner papers"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Papers of Wilhelm Bruchner, herein [German] ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Declaration on oath 3749 on [German] SA on Adolf Hitler.
13Notice notes on the [German] Putsch 1934. General
14religious considerations and" ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Clemency" ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- "clemency" ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "application"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- "Application for clemency or pardon". So there is no
19indication here that there is anything in here that has
20anything to do with the Reichskristallnacht. That is why
21it does not appear.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      So his manuscript on Adolf Hitler would not contain that
23matter than?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not a manuscript from Adolf Hitler.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a manuscript on Adolf Hitler.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is an essay on Adolf Hitler.

.   P-19



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. If I reference that in my source notes of several
 2books, then you would have normally gone to some trouble
 3to find that particular file, as you obviously had
 4privileged access to my papers which I no longer have, of
 5course, but you had access to these papers?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not privileged, no. Could you point out to me where you
 7cite this document, please?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is referenced in several parts in the Goebbels'
 9biography, is it not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point out where you reference it, please?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are back to delaying tactics again, are we?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I want to see where you reference it.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a delaying tactic. I think it is a
14fair point, Mr Irving. I mean, if you want to spend a lot
15of time on this particular document, which I am not
16finding very helpful, then I think that is a fair
17observation for the witness to make.
18 MR IRVING:     Can I draw your attention to page 252 of your
19expert report on line 5, which is line 3 of paragraph 3?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The evidence offered by Irving for the encounter between
22Eberstein and Hitler" which you will agree is quite a
23crucial encounter, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In your account, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The evidence offered by Irving for this is the testimony
26of Wilhelm Bruchner". My Lord, do you now understand why

.   P-20



 1I am zeroing in on this particular collection of documents
 2which the witness has made no attempt to find?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I have not the faintest idea, no.
 4I really have not.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship is familiar with the meeting
 6between Hitler and the Police Chief of Munich in the
 7middle of the night on the night in question?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am.
 9 MR IRVING:     And one source for that meeting was the papers of
10Wilhelm Bruchner which is the papers which I donated ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You cite that, do you, in Goebbels?
12 MR IRVING:     Which are the papers which I donated, well, the
13reference in Goebbels is page 277.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am just looking at the footnotes at
15277.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could I have a copy, please ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Footnote 45 is what you are referring to, is it?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- of what we are talking about here?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     630.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It says: "Testimony of Wilhelm Bruchner (IfZ,
21Irving collection)".
22 MR IRVING:     That should be plain enough, should it not.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the IfZ the Institute of History in Munich?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      But is the Irving collection a well-known body of

.   P-21



 1documents there under the designation Ed200 or Ed100?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, let me please just check this. Page 277 at
 3footnote 45.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Page 613.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      613.
 6 MR IRVING:     This is going to take a long time if we have to go
 7into this.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we started it back to front, if I may
 9say so, Mr Irving. If we are going to go on this like
10this, I think I will make this observation to you. There
11is a criticism made of your account, particularly in
12relation to Hitler's knowledge of the pogrom that broke
13out during the course of whenever it was, 10th November,
14I think. It would be helpful to me if you went to the
15passage in Goebbels which is the subject of the criticism,
16then went to what you say is the source for what you
17write. As it is, we plunged into an extremely obscure
18document called the Deckblatt without any indication of
19where you were going; the result was I was not following
20your cross-examination.
21 MR IRVING:     I apologise, my Lord ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you see my point?
23 MR IRVING:     --- if I am not making myself plain. The reason
24for this particular reason line of cross-examination is
25I am trying to establish the repugnant allegations made
26about me for having made statements in my books with no

.   P-22



 1kind of foundation is the result of these expert witnesses
 2not having looked in the file which I actual reference in
 3the book.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I do not think you are quite
 5understanding what I am saying.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would have been helpful I think if in your
 7cross-examination you had gone to page 277 and shown me
 8the passage that you are seeking to justify, namely
 9sending for the police chief, Eberstein, and Eberstein
10finding Hitler livid with rage, and phoning Goebbels,
11saying what is going on, and then you can of course take
12me to what Bruckner says about it, what Eberstein says
13about it, and we can see where we go from there. Is that
14not the right way of doing it?
15 MR IRVING:     In this case unfortunately not, because your
16Lordship will have caught the words that I used when I
17said that the expert witnesses have access to these papers
18of mine but I do not. I am disbarred from visiting my own
19archives, my own collection. I am drawing to their
20attention----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can give evidence. All right, you are
22not able to produce in disclosure Bruckner's account of
23these events, but you can put to Professor Evans what you
24say Bruckner's account reveals, can you not?
25 MR IRVING:     That is the version sustained in my book, which is
26probably footnoted and referenced back to this document

.   P-23



 1which I had at the time I wrote the original manuscripts
 2of Adolf Hitler and Hitler's War, which I no longer have.
 3It is quite plain that the Defence solicitors in this
 4action were aware of the Bruckner collection in Munich and
 5yet they did not use it. They are quite happy to allege
 6that I have had no foundation for this statement of mine,
 7and there are other documents to which I am going draw
 8your Lordship's attention.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is all back to front. It is not a
10question of whether the Defendants' advisers have been
11diligent about it. It is a question of you showing, by
12your cross-examination of Professor Evans, that he is
13wrong to criticise you for what you write at page 277,
14because you have good reliable testimony to support it.
15That is what you should be putting in cross-examination.
16I am sorry to sound as if I am lecturing you, but it is
17very important that you conduct the cross-examination in a
18way that conveys to me ----
19 MR IRVING:     I am doing the very best I can given the limited
20circumstances that the Defence have access to my documents
21which I do not have.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you suggesting that they are physically
23in court, these memoirs of Bruckner?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. Can I help?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Otherwise I am completely lost.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I think the position is this. Mr Irving is rather

.   P-24



 1rushing his fences this morning. I understand what he is
 2saying, I think. The position is this, that they are in
 3the Munich archive.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     He cannot go there. My people went there and
 6could not find it. Professor Evans does not know that,
 7I do not think, because he did not go himself. One of the
 8researchers went.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry, I do know that.
10 MR RAMPTON:     He does know that? I must not give his evidence
11then. I am sorry, it is there already.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But none of that invalidates what I was
13suggesting. I am not suggesting it, I think it must be
14done that way. Otherwise this is meaningless for me.
15 MR IRVING:     We have two more documents which will answer your
16Lordship's question straightaway.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me say the footnote reference to testimony of Wilhelm
18Bruckner I have said Irving collection. It is really not
19very helpful in trying to locate a document. When you
20look at Samlung Irving Deckblatt, it does not contain
21anything that is entitled testimony of Wilhelm Bruckner.
22It just contains the things that I read out. It does not
23indicate that there is anything in here giving his
24testimony about the events of the Reichskristallnacht.
25 MR IRVING:     Two follow up questions, however. The fact is that
26you did not look, or you did not find it, for the Bruckner

.   P-25



 1file, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Those are two different things, Mr Irving.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You did not find the Bruckner file, is that correct?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We looked very very hard.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes or no? Did you find the Bruckner file?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You mean this Samlung Irving with the Deckblatt and so on
 7document? We could not locate the testimony which you
 8refer to, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Should you not therefore have said in your report, it is
10quite possible that this document contained in this file
11would have borne out Mr Irving's version but we cannot
12state, not having seen it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well I will read the you the sentences: "Irving only
14provide an incomplete reference for Bruckner's testimony,
15which could not be located in the Institute for
16Contemporary History in Munich". That is very carefully
17phrased. That not mean to say it is not there. It is
18just to say that we could not locate it there. It goes on
19to say: "The only document which could be located was a
20summary of a statement of Bruckner, written by a German
21historian. According to this summary, Bruckner claimed
22that Hitler 'is said to have raged' when he is informed of
23the burning Munich synagogue". So that does appear to be
24the source which you are relying on. If you can show me
25it is a different source you are relying on, I would be
26happy to see that.

.   P-26



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that document that you just referred to a part of the
 2Irving collection?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is part of their ZS collection?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in the Siegler -- it is footnoted in footnote 39.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Let us move on to another personality now?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think it is.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to pursue this, if I may. I am
 9sorry to interrupt again but I think this is quite
10important. Professor Evans, you are in the difficulty you
11did not personally search the archive.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Can you help and say if this is any problem about doing
14so? Who was it who went to Munich?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It was my assistant Mr Vassman.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Tell me more about him. Is he in your department?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is a junior research fellow in Downing College,
18Cambridge.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Never having had to consult an archive in my entire life,
20I do not know how difficult it is to do a search. I have
21to form some sort of view about how easy the testimony of
22Bruckner should have been to find. I have no idea.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. This is getting very convoluted, my Lord. Archives
24have file numbers, core numbers, so everything has a
25number and here we cite in footnote 39, that is the core
26number that I have said is in the Institute of

.   P-27



 1Contemporary History in Munich, Zs-243/I. Basically it is
 2a kind of interview. They did a series of interviews in
 3the Institute after the war. Footnote 38 gives a numbered
 4film, which is an interview or interrogation really, of
 5Wilhelm Bruckner in 1947, statement by Schaub, so they all
 6have those core numbers. It is normal practice by
 7historians to put the core numbers in their footnotes, not
 8just to have some vague reference to testimony, which
 9makes it very difficult to locate what one is trying to
10find.
11     Then archives have descriptions, both in what
12are called location aids or search aids, which are usually
13typed up and only available in the archive, and those have
14numbers of the files and rough descriptions of what is in
15then. So you can see in this document here Samlung Irving
16Deckblatt, that is start a rough description, brief
17description, of what is in the file. These are all done
18by archivists. You can go on. It says who is the author
19and then who is allowed and who is not, whose permission
20has to be given to see the files.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you had been your researcher and you had
22seen the kurz Bezeichnung, which, if any, of those would
23you have gone to if you were looking for Bruckner's
24account of these events?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say the testimony of Wilhelm Bruckner, which
26is the tile the Mr Irving gives. There is nothing in

.   P-28



 1there indicating that there is anything about the 1938
 2Reichskristallnacht.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So you say the answer is really none of them suggests that
 4it would have any bearing?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. In the limited time available, it might be
 6interesting to see his views on religion, or his essay on
 7Adolf Hitler, but there is nothing there to indicate that
 8he has a testimony about 1938. But there is an indication
 9in there of his testimony about other specific events, the
10Hanfstaengel the Rowan Putsch 1934. Given the fact that
11those specific references are in there, one would expect
12there to be a specific reference in there to his testimony
13about 1938.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One more question and then I will keep
15quiet. Who compiles the kurz Bezeichnung?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is usually archivists, my Lord.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      It would not have been Mr Irving?
18 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. In fact, this particular cover sheet
19was compiled by me. I gave 500 collection of documents to
20this institute and for each one there was this sheet in
21the front of each file. The Bruckner file is about
22quarter of an inch thick. It would have taken possibly
23five minutes to flip through and find the appropriate
24passage.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may need to hear from the person who
26actually searched the archive. Yes.

.   P-29



 1 MR IRVING:     The point I am making, my Lord, is that I am
 2accused of not having had proper sources for the events of
 3that night. The sources were there, they were referenced
 4in my Goebbels biography in a manner in which any
 5competent researcher would have found the file in a matter
 6of minutes.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot agree with that, Mr Irving.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell the court now -- I am moving on to another
 9personality -- who Julius Schaub was?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He was sort of Hitler's ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Factotum?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, side kick. It is difficult to find a precise way of
13describing him. He was a very close aid of Hitler's for
14very many years.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      An amanuensis, one of the old guard, with him in the 1923
16Putsch?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. He joined the party very early on in 1921 or 22,
18personal adjutant from the mid 20s on, and again he was
19given a senior office in the SS and possessed various
20decorations and so on.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Look at page 257 of your report, please, where we are
22dealing with the Schaub as a source, the source which
23Irving gives for Schaub's claims is: Schaub's unpublished
24memoirs in the author's collection in the Institute of
25History in Munich, file ED.100/202. ED.100 is the Irving
26collection, is that right?

.   P-30



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is true, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Oblique stroke 202. They have now changed the reference,
 3you say, to 203. Can I draw your attention to page 26 of
 4the little bundle I gave you?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      This I think will put your Lordship's mined at rest. This
 7is the reason I am going through these documents. Is that
 8a translation of a passage from these Julius Schaub
 9papers?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I find myself in some difficulty here. I do not know, is
11the answer.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You made this translation, Mr Irving, did
13you?
14 MR IRVING:     I made it last night, my Lord, yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have access then to Julius Schaub's
16papers? I thought they were in the archive in Munich.
17 MR IRVING:     I am pretty certain that this comes from -- yes, it
18comes from the discovery. There was one page in the
19discovery from these papers I think. Off of the top of my
20head I have to say that, but this is a genuine
21translation.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You have not supplied the original.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is in H 5?
24 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know what particular document Mr Irving
25is talking about or which it is that he has translated.
26There is a piece about Goebbels apparently headed Schaub

.   P-31



 1Nachlass, whatever that means, at page 4 of tab 5 of the
 2file L2, the Reichskristallnacht.
 3 MR IRVING:     Yes, my Lord, that is where it comes from.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Which is the reference given by Professor Evans at
 5page 257.
 6 MR IRVING:     It was quite late when I did this translation last
 7night.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure. I am not forgetting that side of
 9things.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I have it.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Page 4 of tab 5 my Lord. It is leaded IfZ ED
12100/203.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     If I had provided just the German to your Lordship,
15you would have rightly reprimanded me.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The witness asked to see the German, which is
17fair enough. I am very happy with the translation.
18 MR IRVING:     If the witness wishes to challenge the translation,
19then of course he may. "Without doubt Goebbels had the
20biggest influence on AH"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can you direct me to where exactly it is?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Page 5, last paragraph.
23 MR IRVING:     I have translated only the passage dealing with the
24events of that night. "Without doubt Goebbels had the
25biggest influence on AH, far more so than Bormann, he
26invented the concept Fuhrer for AH and he hammered the

.   P-32



 1Fuhrer principle into the people. Goebbels always
 2discussed his propaganda with Hitler, even during the
 3war". The part I am relying on is a sentence or two
 4later: "It is a certainty that Goebbels ordained the
 5Reichskristallnacht Sunday".
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You skipped a bit. All right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      "It is a certainty that Goebbels ordained the
 8Reichskristallnacht Sunday with the SA command". Of
 9course it was not a Sunday, was it? It was another day of
10the week. Then comes no doubt Schaub's own
11particular hobby horse. He says, "The SS was innocent of
12this, apart from a few lesser officers. When AH learned
13on that Sunday of the anti-Semitic outrages, he was
14furious with Goebbels. He made a frightful scene with
15Goebbels and told him that this kind of propaganda was
16just damaging".
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now, this is a source that you would disqualify for some
19reason, or downgrade?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you disqualify it because of its content, because it
22does not agree with your own views, or because of
23something about Schaub, or something about the document?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is a number of different things. I think he is just
25making this up, basically.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      You think he is just making it up?

.   P-33



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed, yes. There is an enormous amount of other
 2evidence, contemporary evidence, and not much later
 3evidence such as this, that most of what he says here is
 4not true, and that I go into in great length in my report.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      First of all, you do accept that this document is genuine,
 6that this is a collection of papers given to me by the son
 7of Schaub Mr Roland Schaub, containing an odd collection
 8of manuscripts and notes, articles, carbon copies and the
 9like?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed. I describe it on footnote 54 of my page 257.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You have actually had a look at the heap of papers, have
12you?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is cited in the report on page 257.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but the point I am looking at is of course that here
15we have a man who was on Adolf Hitler's private staff, his
16chief adjutant, and factotum, who says he was an
17eyewitness, or he reports to us that, when Hitler learned
18of the outrages, he was furious with Goebbels, he made a
19frightful scene. Should I have disregarded that evidence
20completely?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. You weigh it up against other evidence and against
22Schaub's possible motives in writing this, and the fact
23that, as you say repeatedly, eyewitness testimony after
24the war is less reliable than contemporary testimony.
25This is another example of your double standards,
26Mr Irving.

.   P-34



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Double standards?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. You are determined to give credence to this report
 3but you dismiss all reports of victims of the Holocaust as
 4being fabrications due to mass hysteria, as we heard
 5yesterday.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which of us has the double standard? The person who
 7pretends that this report and the contents that it
 8contains should be in some way played down for no reason
 9other than you do not like it? You cannot give a real
10reason why. You cannot say Schaub was a congenital liar?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You have already said that he was wrong to say that it was
12on a Sunday, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      He got the wrong day of the week but this is a mistake any
14of us can make. No doubt it stuck in his mind.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not if he is an utterly reliable eyewitness who has total
16recall of what went on. That alone I think should alert
17one to the fact that his memory is not particularly good.
18Then you yourself went on to discredit, or cast doubt over
19his statement that the SS was completely without any
20guilt. No doubt that is connected with the fact that
21Schaub himself was a senior officer in the SS. This is an
22extremely self serving document. One has to regard it
23with the deepest suspicion and compare it with other
24documents, preferably contemporary ones dealing with the
25same events.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do we have any contemporary records of what went on in

.   P-35



 1Adolf Hitler's private residence, any contemporary records
 2whatsoever of went on in his private residence?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not directly, no.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      So we are really then on our uppers, are we not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We are comparing a lost of post war reminiscences and we
 6have to be very careful in treading through this
 7particular minefield of documents.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So ideally we want to have more than just one source that
 9says the same thing?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Whole range of sources, indeed.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      How many would you accept? Two sources?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not going to put a number on it, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      But, if we have another source that says the same thing,
14then we are getting convergences of evidence beginning to
15kick in, are we?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, it is a problem with the evidence of Hitler's
17entourage, that they of course had a major incentive after
18the war for trying to exculpate them for involvement in a
19number of crimes such as the Reichskristallnacht. They
20also seem to have been a fairly close knit group who had
21the opportunity to discuss their line, as it were, amongst
22themselves, so I think one has to be very cautious.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Any common sense historian would adopt that line, that is
24correct. But, if we ignore for a moment the main trend of
25these statements, and I am going to introduce another one
26to you in a moment, and we look for the little bits of

.   P-36



 1verisimilitude which tend to support the main trend, for
 2example he was livid with rage and he shouted at Goebbels,
 3those kinds of things which appear to figure in several of
 4the statements or certainly more than one, then the
 5convergence of evidence then becomes more convincing.
 6Would you agree?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, not necessarily. This might have been a story they
 8cooked up.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we now turn to a third witness?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The sentence you are relying on here claiming such a
11tremendous piece of evidence is-- I will quote it: "As AH
12on this Sunday" -- we know it was not a Sunday.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you attach much important to the fact he got the day of
14the week wrong?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is pretty easy to remember. "As AH heard on that
17Sunday about the anti-Semitic excesses, he was angry with
18Goebbels". It does not seem to me to be very
19circumstantial.
20 MR IRVING:     He was furious with Goebbels. You are changing the
21words.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is angry, very angry, furious, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      He made a frightful scene, did he not?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Told him that this kind of propaganda was just damaging.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. Mr Irving, I do not know how much detail I ought to

.   P-37



 1go into here, but there is an enormous amount of evidence
 2which is laid out in my report and which was gone over in
 3your cross-examination ----
 4 MR IRVING:     But not of the events in your----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not keep talking over the witness.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      -- about Hitler's responsibilities for these events.
 7 MR IRVING:     We are not talking about that at this point.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You know that, and accepted that what Goebbels said in his
 9speech to the party assembly at between about 10 o'clock
10at night on 9th November that (I quote) on Goebbels'
11briefing the Fuhrer has decided that such demonstrations
12should not be quelled. That is contemporary evidence,
13Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      I really have to halt you here because this is a totally
15different matter.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please do not interrupt, Mr Irving.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is contemporary evidence that Hitler had decided that
18these excesses should continue, they should continue to
19burn synagogues and destroy the dwellings and shops of the
20Jews. It seems reasonable to suppose that, if Hitler had
21been angry and had not approved of this, if Goebbels was
22making this up, then the consequences for Goebbels would
23have been extremely serious. I cannot imagine that
24Goebbels would have said that to a mass assembly of senior
25party officials if that was not true. Indeed, you have
26accepted that what Goebbels said in his speech was what

.   P-38



 1Hitler told him at the dinner. You have also accepted
 2that, when Heinrich Muller telexed the police, ordering
 3them again not to interfere in the excesses, the burnings
 4and the destruction, and to arrest 20,000 Jews at 11.55
 5p.m., that is an order that came from Himmler to Muller,
 6from Himmler who had had it from Hitler, i.e. that
 7Hitler's order was the source of this Muller telegram.
 8 MR IRVING:     Can we now halt your flow of verbiage and get back
 9to the point I am asking about?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We have a whole series of contemporary----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am finding this extremely helpful and
12please will you stop interrupting.
13 MR IRVING:     This is not the point I am asking about. I am
14asking about the events in Hitler's home.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We have a whole series of contemporary documents going on
16to the telex from Heydrich, to the German police again
17saying they are not to interfere unless German property is
18threatened or foreigners are threatened at 1.20 a.m.,
19again which Mr Irving has admitted under cross-examination
20was a result of Hitler and Himmler having discussed this
21issue. So right through the night -- and this goes on.
22There is a whole string of further documents, a telegram
23from Eberstein, a telegram from Hess at 2.56, which
24indicate all the way through that Hitler was fully
25apprised of the situation, right from the very beginning,
26that he approved of Goebbels' idea and ordered that these

.   P-39



 1excesses should be carried out.
 2     These are contemporary documents and therefore
 3they undermine wholly the credibility of postwar
 4ex post facto self-serving justifications by members of
 5Hitler's entourage who were heavily involved in these
 6events, that Hitler somehow did not know about it, and got
 7very angry when he heard about it.
 8 MR IRVING:     Are you saying ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We know from Goebbels' diary, as I quote on pages 257 to
108, that Schaub himself was involved. Schaub is completely
11worked up, says Goebbels, his old shock troop past is
12waking up. So Schaub himself was heavily involved.
13Obviously, all these things are things that Schaub does
14not really want to admit after the war.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That was a very long answer but what are you
16really saying -- and this is condensing it absurdly -- is
17that, when you are approaching the testimony of the
18Adjutants, you have to weigh what they say happened
19against the whole background and consider the likelihoods?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is not a question of dismissing them totally.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      No. I said "weigh against".
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But you have to weigh them up, yes, and particularly the
23circumstances in which these statements were made after
24the war.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, with respect this witness has laid a

.   P-40



 1terrible choking suffocating smoke screen across the
 2courtroom and across the points that I was trying to
 3arrive at.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, let me explain why I think it is
 5helpful. You say, and I quite understand, and I think
 6there are three of them, Schaub, Eberstein and
 7Bruckner , as supporting evidence for Hitler's angry
 8reaction in the middle of the night. Now, they may be
 9right, they may be wrong. What Professor Evans was doing,
10and it was a long answer, was summarizing all the
11considerations that should weigh with an objective
12historian in deciding whether to attach credence to what
13the individual witnesses say. Now, what is wrong with
14that?
15 MR IRVING:     With respect, I should have been permitted to
16conduct the cross-examination my way, which would have
17been to go over those documents, having dealt with this
18central issue, and then looked at those documents which
19were prior to that.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am afraid I see nothing wrong with
21that answer and I tried to explain why I found it helpful.
22 MR IRVING:     Well, we have had all of that. The whole of that
23little speech -- little is not the right word -- we have
24had several times in this courtroom. What I am
25introducing here is material going to the issue, which is
26whether I had no basis for writing what I did.

.   P-41



 1Unfortunately, the witness, by his smoke screen, has
 2interrupted my cross-examination.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. What the witness was saying was yes, you
 4have records of what these Adjutants told you, but you
 5were in dereliction of your duty as a historian in
 6forgetting to weigh that evidence against the background,
 7the context.
 8 MR IRVING:     Should he not have waited until he heard the third
 9witness and then started off with his little speech?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Go on with your third witness.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. Would you now turn finally, preferably
12without five-minute speeches, to the translation of the
13tape recorded interview of Colonel Nicholas von Below?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me to the original German, please?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The original German is here. Am I right in saying --
16I am trying to save time now -- that Colonel Nicholas von
17Below was Hitler's air force adjutant from 1937 until the
18last day of his life?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      He was an air force professional officer?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The last day of whose life, Hitler's life, you mean?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      I beg your pardon?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Last day of Hitler's life?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. He was a professional German air force officer, he
25was not a Nazi Party member, is that correct?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is right, yes.

.   P-42



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      On this occasion, on this night, he was in Hitler's home?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      In Munich?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is he a source whose recollections have been rightly
 6impugned on any other occasion, to your knowledge, of any
 7other historical event?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      My memory fails me here, Mr Irving. They are a source of
 9variable quality but it is a valuable source.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, you have held yourself out to this court as an
11expert witness on the Third Reich. You have spent 18
12month in investigating these sources in particular, and
13I am just asking you if you have any impression about
14colonel von Below?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think Colonel von Below gave a number of different
16testimonies, parts of which are valuable and parts of
17which are not so valuable, is that enough?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is right that in general you are inclined to criticise my
19interview technique and suggest that I may have asked
20leading questions, or in some way browbeaten my Nazi
21sources?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where do I use the word "browbeating".
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      You know what I am getting at, that in fact I used
24improper techniques?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I know what you mean by attempts to browbeat, Mr Irving,
26but I do not say that you do that with people cited in

.   P-43



 1this report.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Browbeating is part of the job of somebody in
 3cross-examination, is it not, obtaining information from a
 4reluctant witness, shall say? Is there any sign here ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I thought you were complaining I was not reluctant, I gave
 6too much information, Mr Irving.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any indication from this transcript? Would you
 8agree it is a verbatim transcript?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      From a tape recording?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it appears to be such.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any indication that I am asking leading
13questions?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The first one is a leading question, but let
15us move on.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, my interview technique is part of the
17criticism against me, that I have distorted history.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but you asked whether there were any
19leading questions and the first question is a leading
20question, Mr Irving. Let us get to his answer.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "You were with Hitler at his home when the news of the
22Reichskristallnacht arrived there in Munich and he was
23rather surprised by that, can you depict that who else was
24there, suggest to the witness that he was surprised".
25What you should have asked was, "you were with Hitler in
26his home on the eve of Reichskristallnacht, can you say

.   P-44



 1what happened", something neutral like that?
 2 MR IRVING:     Is it not likely----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You are suggesting things here.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is this an extract from an interview or is it the whole
 5interview?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is an extract. It starts with one question as well.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it likely that there had been some discussion of this
 8before this extract begins therefore?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to show me documentation of that previous
10discussion if I am to answer that question, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you look at the second question from the end,
12please? Irving asked, "back to the Reichskristallnacht",
13is that a leading question, "back to the
14Reichskristallnacht"?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, I cannot find it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      On the first page.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      First page, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      At the bottom of the page, Irving asks, "back to the
19Reichskristallnacht"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that a leading question?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      And the answer comes, "the first thing that came to us was
24a phone call from the Four Seasons Hotel". Do you wish to
25follow this in the German original and correct me if I am
26wrong in the translation?

.   P-45



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Those of us who were on duty with Hitler always lived at
 3that time in the Four Seasons Hotel and on this day we
 4were billetted in rooms that were quite high up. The
 5staff phoned to us". Where was he then at this time?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In Hitler's residence.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The staff phoned us to say we ought to come right over
 8and pack our bags as in a neighbouring building the
 9synagogue was on fire and the sparks were flying right
10over the building". Does this sound like he is recalling
11the actual conversation?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, sounds like that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is verisimilitude, is it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sounds like that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     "It was just a matter of security. Brandt", he is the
16doctor, "always lived in that hotel too. He said, 'Ought
17we to drive over or not? Somebody" and this is the
18adjutants speaking to each other, is it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Somebody said then, 'Well, one of us ought at least to go
21and take a look'. Whether anybody did drive over, I don't
22know. Then further reports came. I don't know on the
23basis of what facts, whether it was Schaub asking or the
24fire brigade or the Gaul headquarters. Shortly after that
25it became known that the synagogue had not cut fire by
26itself, but had been set on fire and that there was a

.   P-46



 1demonstration going on. Thereupon that was immediately
 2passed on by Schaub to Hitler. Thereupon the Police
 3President of Munich, von Aberstein, was immediately sent
 4for. Herr von Aberstein then appeared soon after at the
 5Fuhrer's residence. He was an SS Obergruppenfuhrer. He
 6was now interrogated by Hitler. Then there was a
 7conversation between Hitler and Goebbels by" -- has he
 8been led with any of this by me, to your knowledge?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, by the opening question. "You were with Hitler in his
10home when the news of the Reichskristallnacht arrived
11there in Munich and he was rather surprised by that. Can
12you depict that?" and that is what he is doing here.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have I mentioned in my opening question Aberstein or
14telephone conversation with Goebbels?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Can you depict that, who else was there?" That is your
16question.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then the we carry on now from the bottom of the page when
18I asked, "What was Hitler' reaction to the first news
19report?" Is that a leading question?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well...
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      And then does he answer?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, it depends. I mean, it makes the assumption, of
23course, that these were the first news reports. But if it
24refers just to reports of the synagogue burning in Munich,
25then it is not a leading question.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Then Below admittedly recalling the events 30 years

.   P-47



 1later", because it is, it is 1968 this interview with von
 2Below, is it not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      He records Hitler's reaction as being, "What is going on?
 5Please find out. I have to know what the game is."
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot find this in the German, I am sorry, for the
 7moment.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      "It was my impression that we all and even Hitler"?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a second, would you mind, mr Irving?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 MR IRVING:     "It was my impression"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "What is going on?" Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Please find out. I have to know what the game is". Is
14that a fair translation, admittedly it is ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes -- no, it is fine.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- obviously not a verbatim recollection, but that was
17his impression.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is fine.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      "It was my impression that we all and even Hitler himself
20were totally in the dark". I assume that is what he means
21by "musspot". "Nobody knew anything about anything.
22I can only say", and then he continues with his own
23impression: "Form my many years with Hitler and on his
24staff, if that had been organized by Hitler and with
25Hitler's knowledge, a charade on that scale would have
26been impossible. I would not put it past Goebbels,

.   P-48



 1absolutely not". And then what does he say? "Then Hitler
 2became angry and raised his voice quite loudly to
 3Aberstein and said: 'I demand that order is restored at
 4once'." Is this now another source saying the same thing
 5that Schaub said?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It seems to be, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like to read the next sentence?
 8 MR IRVING:     "That was, however, limited just to Munich.
 9I overheard that because the conversation took place as
10I was on the way out". In other words, von Below was
11returning to his own quarters -- [German] as they say in
12German. Then he quite frankly admits what happened with
13regard to the "directive to Goebbels or to Himmler for the
14rest of the Reichs territory, that, I do not know". Then
15comes a bit of hearsay: "I spoke once more with Aberstein
16about this business in Nuremberg prison in 1948 and
17I asked him: 'Did you know anything about it before you
18came to Hitler's?' He described it to me just as I had it
19in my own recollection". Is that significant? Do we
20derive from that that it came as a surprise to Aberstein
21too?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is unclear what time he is talking about here, and
23I find that difficult to accept.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it significant, in other words?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I mean, this is 30 years after the event, Mr Irving. He
26has had an enormous amount of time to concoct a story

.   P-49



 1which will exculpate himself from involvement in these
 2events which is in his clear interests to do.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      How could von Below had been implicated in any way
 4himself?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because he was with Hitler.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      But how would that in any way have made him into an
 7accomplice?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because Hitler ordered this pogrom.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Why would he have invented this conversation with
10Aberstein in Nuremberg prison where Aberstein confirms 10
11years after the event, "It was surprise to me too"? Was
12there any reason? Does it not look like a piece of
13verisimilitude again then? A random scrap of something
14that stuck in his memory over the years that he then
15repeats to me 20 years later on as something that
16always ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is extraordinary, is it not, Mr Irving? All these old,
18all these police officers and SS men have been with Hitler
19during the appalling violence against the Jews in 1938,
20many years afterwards when it has become clear that
21society and the world disapprove very strongly of these
22events, all tell each other, "Well, I did not know
23anything about it. I had not heard about it"?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we just look finally on the von Below and if we just
25on the final page, at the end of the first paragraph on
26that page, there is just one little passage that I am

.   P-50



 1doing to draw your attention to: "For a long time Hitler
 2did not really place much trust in him", that is Goebbels,
 3"but then after a while he began to on matters of
 4importance, because Goebbels had the knack of putting
 5things forward, putting forward his things in a very
 6logical and penetrating manner, Hitler was in some way a
 7sucker for this whole kind of act. There is no doubt
 8about that."
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that an unusual picture of Hitler, that he could be
11taken in by members of his staff, do you think, or taken
12advantage of from your expertise as an ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- historian on the Third Reich?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is somewhat unusual, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you heard it before by other authors, that Hitler was
17not such a strong man after all, that he was taken
18advantage of?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think "taken advantage of" is a phrase that other
20authors would use. I mean, there is sort of glimmering of
21-- I mean, this is not to be dismissed entirely, as it
22were. It is clear, I think, it is general agreement, that
23the Reichskristallnacht was initially Goebbels' idea.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      And, overall, looking at the von Below interview, now that
25they are in front of you completely transcribed and
26translated, in general, is it a proper interview or has it

.   P-51



 1been deliberately skewed in some way by the man asking the
 2questions?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, as has been remarked several times now, the initial
 4question there is very much a leading question.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Or picking up on something previously said during that
 6evening?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You would have to show me that before I could accept
 8that. In any case, it is a leading question.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      So I do not want to go over that because we have been over
10that.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Subject to that, it is an account which bears
12out what Mr Irving writes in Goebbels?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I am not -- not entirely, no, my Lord.
14 MR IRVING:     Can I ask you to have a look at the Aberstein
15telegram of the previous evening?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a moment. It is really the top of page
17277, I suppose?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of Goebbels?
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Of Goebbels. I mean, I will read it to you. It is two
20lines. "According to Luftwaffe adjutant Nicolaus von
21Below, Hitler phoned Goebbels, 'What's going on?' he
22snapped, and, 'Find out'".
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, now, in his memoirs von Below says something rather
24different, that he conducted his phone conversation with
25Goebbels on his own from his living room, so that
26contradicts what he says in the interview. In other

.   P-52



 1words, if he conducted the phone conversation on his own
 2from his living room, he could not have heard what Hitler
 3was saying to Goebbels on the phone. That is at page 258,
 4paragraph 6, of my report.
 5 MR IRVING:     Will you accept that I have the original typescript
 6of von Below's memoirs that he wrote in 1947 and I was
 7relying on that and not on a later published work. When
 8were the memoirs published? In 1980?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In 1980 in Meinz, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      So how could I have possibly made use of that in 'The
11Warpath' which was published in 1977?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I would say that von Below said, for what it is
13worth, I quote him on paragraph 9 of page 260, that he
14objected to your claim that he had provided you with
15unpublished contemporary manuscripts and letters and
16checked through pages of your manuscripts. He remembered
17"some visits by Irving during which I answered his
18questions. But I must decidedly reject his more
19far-reaching claims as not corresponding to the truth".
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      So what is von Below saying there, that he did not provide
21me with any manuscripts?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I assume that is what he is saying, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      He provided me with no letters, wartime letters?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If one is to believe him, that is what he is saying.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      If one is to believe the printed word and that he did not
26revise the manuscript then it was written by me, is that

.   P-53



 1correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is what he says, I think, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now, Professor, you or your researchers have had access to
 4my files in the Institute of History, have you not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you seen in the correspondence file between myself
 7and Colonel von Below the covering letters with which I
 8sent the chapters to him and which I thanked him for
 9having returned the chapters to me, chapters which
10included in the files are all his marginal comments on
11precisely this chapter?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Provide me with copies and I will look at this again.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Your researchers have worked in the archives, is that
14right, on the Irving collection?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      And you have had my personal files of correspondence with
17people like von Below containing all these matters and you
18prefer to believe what a book published in 1980 says
19rather than the evidence of your eyes, namely the chapters
20amended in his handwriting?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Provide me with copies of those chapters and I will
22comment on that. I have not seen them, no.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not?
24 MR IRVING:     You have not seen them?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did you or your researchers bother to look in these files

.   P-54



 1of correspondence between myself and Adolf Hitler's
 2private staff?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can you name the files, give me core numbers of the
 4files?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Will you answer my question? Did you or your researchers
 6bother to look at my files of correspondence?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I have already said that we did not see them,
 8I mean, accepting for the moment your claim that there are
 9such files.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      But you are quite happy to repeat ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If they are in the discovery ----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If they are in the discovery, we can see them.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know how difficult it is to dig them
14out. I know there has been a massive amount of discovery.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, they are no longer in my discovery, of
16course, because I have given the originals to the
17Institute.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you were saying you had disclosed
19them in this action, your correspondence with von Below?
20 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, I did not. With respect, I did not
21say that. I said that these researchers have had access
22in the Institute at Munich to all my private files in
23which I have correspondence with Hitler's personal staff
24which I donated to the Institute because of its historical
25significance. It contains voluminous correspondence with
26Colonel von Below, including the chapters which he

.   P-55



 1corrected in his own handwriting in the margin with his
 2very characteristic handwriting. Why this passage appears
 3in his book is a mystery to me.
 4     A final question on this matter of the
 5documents: Professor, have you seen in my discovery now
 6one page of extracts typed by me on my large faced
 7typewriter from von Below's original typescript manuscript
 8memoirs in my discovery?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Point it to me and I will ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      On this particular episode?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Provide it to me and I will say whether I have seen it or
12not.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, I sometimes wonder what the purpose of discovery is,
14if all these documents are made available in numbered
15folders to the defending solicitors and the evidence is
16there, and yet they still write paragraphs like this.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, like what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is insulting, is it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Like what?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      The allegation that I lied, is that not insulting, the
21allegation that I lied about having had access to von
22Below's private papers and manuscripts?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is his allegation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you have repeated it. Is it not insulting for
25you to put that in there, although the evidence in the
26discovery is that I did not lie?

.   P-56



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If the man -- well, first of all, I do say, draw attention
 2to the fact, that von Below is not always a very reliable
 3witness, so I think anything I say about von Below, it is
 4clear that it is with that caution. But if he does say in
 5his published memoirs that he takes strong exception to
 6your claims that you have -- that he checked through many
 7pages of your manuscript, then I think one is duty bound
 8to record that fact. The only way we can actually verify
 9this not desperately important point is, of course, by
10looking at all the correspondence.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say it is not desperately important?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is a rather peripheral issue, in my judgment.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      If a journalist or an expert said, "Professor Evans has
14claimed to have had access to the private papers of
15Colonel Smith" and Colonel Smith says, "This is a lie", is
16that a peripheral point? Would you consider that to be a
17peripheral point?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is something slightly different. He also -- that is
19a slightly different point.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      But do you say that Colonel von Below turns out to be
21unreliable on many points. You remember that I asked you
22earlier this morning, "Have you any impression about von
23Below's reliability? Has he ever been demonstrably wrong
24on anything he has written about?"
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is variable, yes. It is variable. He is unreliable on
26some issues. One has to make a judgment about what he is

.   P-57



 1saying.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      That was not what you said in answer to my question, was
 3it? You said you did not know of any instances where he
 4had been wrong?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I honestly cannot remember. I would have to see the
 6transcript.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      You would have to see the transcript.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, probably now is the right moment
 9to ask you this. Where are you suggesting, or where is
10anyone suggesting, we should put this clip of documents
11because it is very convenient you have prepared it in the
12way you have.
13 MS ROGERS:     If I can help? L2 is the Kristallnacht file.
14There should be an empty tab 9. If it is empty, I suggest
15it goes there.
16 MR IRVING:     Do you, therefore, accept, Professor, that I had
17three sources of what you would describe as being of
18variable quality, all converging on an episode in Hitler's
19private quarters on the Night of Broken Glass in which
20Hitler, apparently, vented his anger upon receiving news
21of what was happening in Munich, at least?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, and I think they are all lying.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      You think that all three are separately lying?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, Mr Irving, it is not beyond the bounds of
25possibility. You have already suggested in the course of
26this trial that many thousands of Holocaust survivors are

.   P-58



 1all collectively lying, so it is not beyond the bounds of
 2possibility that three people are lying, is it?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      But the problem we have with the eyewitnesses in other
 4matters before the court is that their accounts diverge,
 5whereas the significant detail about these three is that
 6in minor points the little bits of verisimilitude are the
 7same?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Like the fact that it took place on a Sunday, for
 9example?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am now going to take you through some points in your
11report relating to the Kristallnacht, page 237, line 2?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      237?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that the real number of deaths, including
14suicides, was certainly much higher than 91.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      And, of course, I put the figure at about 91 or 100, do
17I not, in my book?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is what you are criticising? Do you have any
20evidence for saying that the real number of deaths was
21certainly much higher?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, now there were, certainly I think over 200 in Vienna
23alone. That is the figure, of course, that is given by
24the Nazi Party tribunal, but it is clear that there were
25deaths, suicides, in the camps when the 20,000 were
26arrested.

.   P-59



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does that figure come from?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What, 91 or 200?
 3 MR IRVING:     The larger figure.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The 91 are the murders which are listed in the Party
 5report.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. In a Party report; of course, there were several
 7such reports, were there not?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is the Party tribunal which investigated these
 9events.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the figure of 200 in Vienna alone, where does that kind
11of figure come from?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That comes from a contemporary report in Vienna. I am
13trying to find where my records are of this. I think
14I answered this in one of my answers to your written
15questions.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very well. Let us proceed then.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I refer you to that, my Lord.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is rather holding up the court on that matter. I do
19not attach much importance to that, my Lord, so we will
20move on.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think it is...
22 MR IRVING:     At the beginning of paragraph 8, please? "These
23events were the only major nationwide pogrom undertaken in
24public against the Jewish population during the 'Third
25Reich'", is that the popular perception nowadays?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Would you like to point me to others?

.   P-60



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you accept that there were other major pogroms against
 2the Jews in Germany?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you name some?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are these well-known to historians, do you think?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you tell me when they happened?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I turn your attention to page 252 of my Goebbels
 7biography?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the middle paragraph, the second paragraph, of that
10page describe a pogrom in Berlin organized by the Nazis in
11June 1938 of which there has so far by no description by
12historians like yourself? All the usual Nazi methods,
13harassment, rounding up "1,122 criminal, 445", I quote,
14"'anti-social', and 77 foreign Jews found ... imprisoned,
151,029 were thrown into concentration camps ... 250
16Jewish-owned automobiles seized pending safety tests", I
17mean, real harassment going on there?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the relevance of this, Mr Irving?
19 MR IRVING:     He has said here in his paragraph 8 that this was
20"the only nationwide pogrom undertaken in public against
21the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'". It is an
22attack on his credibility as an expert witness. He
23appears unfamiliar with the facts that in June 1938
24Goebbels organized without any consent from Hitler a
25pogrom against the Jews which is a kind of a trial run on
26a major scale in Berlin, and I found the details of this

.   P-61



 1in records in Princetown University Library. There is the
 2original report by Heldorf, the Police Chief of Berlin.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hear what you say, Mr Irving, but what I am
 4concerned with is whether the criticisms of your account
 5of Kristallnacht are well-founded or whether they are not,
 6and the fact you have discovered another, as you put it,
 7major pogrom in Berlin in June 1938 does not appear to
 8help me very much on that.
 9 MR IRVING:     Well, it is a question of state of mind and mind
10set and expertise of myself versus this witness, my Lord.
11 THE WITNESS:     May I just then, in response to that, say that,
12of course, I am aware of the fact that there was a great
13deal of harassment and violence towards Jews in the Third
14Reich, throughout the Third Reich, from the very
15beginning, in particular, the beginning of April 1933, and
16during the so-called Nazi seizure of power during those
17months there were many arrests and a great deal of
18violence against individual Jews. There was a
19considerable amount in 1935 which was the background to
20the Nuremberg laws, and there were a considerable number
21of events, of violent actions, against arrests of,
22harassment, maltreatment of Jews, right the way through,
23including 1938.
24     The point I am trying to make here is that,
25"These events were the only major nationwide pogrom
26undertaken in public against the Jewish population during

.   P-62



 1the 'Third Reich'". Let me draw your attention to two
 2words there, the first is "pogrom" which I understand to
 3be acts of mass violence and destruction and, secondly,
 4"nationwide".
 5     What you are describing here in the central
 6paragraph of page 252 of Goebbels are arrests accompanied,
 7no doubt, by harassment and, secondly, it is only in
 8Berlin. So I feel that I am justified in making that
 9statement.
10 MR IRVING:     Can we turn to page 258, please, of your report?
11You are accusing me here of suppressing evidence again,
12are you not? Line 3, you have given a quotation from the
13Goebbels diary, page 56: "Shock-troop Hitler gets Goring
14immediately to clear things out", and so on, "the events
15during the night". Then you state: "This contemporary
16document - not mentioned by Irving" ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just pre-empt you here, in my letter with
18amendments, 10th January 2000, I recognize on checking
19through it all again that you do cite the century on page
20276 of Goebbels, so I was wrong there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you were wrong there to suggest that I had suppressed
22evidence?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Absolutely, yes, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      I quoted it in full, in fact?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is another matter, but you do mention it.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      I quoted it in full?

.   P-63



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to direct me to the place.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 276 of the Goebbels biography, and you have accused
 3me of not mentioning this contemporary document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I have withdrawn that accusation, Mr Irving.
 5I withdrew it on 10th January. So you had over a month to
 6read that.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but I am just drawing your attention to the fact that
 8once again you have made an accusation ----
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The court is already aware of that. I drew my own
10attention -- I drew your attention to the fact, Mr Irving.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You made an accusation against me which turns out to be
12completely unfounded?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I withdrew that remark. Page what of Goebbels?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      276.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Is that right, page 276?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Lower down that page, I am now back on your report again,
17paragraph 7.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Wait a minute, I am just checking the shock-troop Hitler.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot find it.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot find it either.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on 276, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING:     Let us work backwards from: "His old ... (reading
23to the words) ... past comes flooding back". That is the
24final sentence of that paragraph.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which paragraph?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The indented quote in the middle of page 276, my Lord,

.   P-64



 1which follows on: "We go with Schaub to the Artists'
 2Club, to await further bulletins" or "reports" in my
 3version. "In Berlin five synagogues are ablaze, then 15.
 4Now the people's anger is aroused. That night", so on and
 5so forth, "Schaub was on top form". I suppose that
 6is ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes I see?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Schaub is completely worked up. His old shock-troop is
 9coming past".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
11 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 7 on your page of your report 258, you
12take exception to my relying on von Below. You say: "It
13appears clear in this instance that rather than rely on
14the published book", I relied on the interview von Below
15in 1968?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      How many interviews did I conduct with colonel von Below?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean there were more than one?
19 MR IRVING:     There were about 10, my Lord, yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This was the interview in 1968, interviews, if you like,
21this is a particular interview, one particular interview
22in 1968.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      All of the von Below interviews were available to your
24researchers in the archives, were they not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      We are arguing about the word "the" here, Mr Irving.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, we are arguing about "interviewer" in the singular.

.   P-65



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think that sentence implies that there were not
 2more, and it is not an important matter. I am happy to
 3concede that you conducted various interviews. If you
 4like, I will withdraw the word "the" and put "and".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, the substance of the criticism is
 6that you go to your interview with him rather than to his
 7own published book. That may or may not be a valid
 8criticism, but worrying about whether there was more than
 9one interview seems to me to be missing the wood for the
10trees.
11 MR IRVING:     Over the page, my Lord, on page 259, line 2, I
12allegedly, von Below allegedly told me something which
13implies that, in fact, there is no proof for it. The word
14"allegedly" implies there is no proof for it. That
15coupled with paragraph 9 where I am accused of having lied
16about obtaining the papers of von Below and using his
17unpublished manuscript?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, he accused you of that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      On page 261, paragraph 11, we come to the famous quotation
20where from the Goebbels diary -- from the court report
21"Thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the
22coming days"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, page what?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      At the end of paragraph 11 of page 261.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      261, right. Yes. I have opted for a literal translation
26there because I did not want to be accused of

.   P-66



 1exaggerating. I mean, I tried to convey there is a sense
 2of menace in that, of course, perhaps had better believe
 3it in the coming days.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point on that, Mr Irving?
 5 MR IRVING:     It is a German slang for "will die".
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I cannot agree with that.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Are going for a burton"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not German slang for "will die". If you look it
 9up in the dictionary as I have done. It is "will suffer
10the consequences" is one possible meaning.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Glauben" means "believe", it does not mean
12"die".
13 MR IRVING:     It does indeed, but it is German slang. A Burton
14is a beer, but "going for a burton" has a specific
15meaning, my Lord. Goebbels writes his diary in slang,
16Goebbels speaks slang. "Daran glauben mussen" is a German
17slang, as, in fact, the Frankfurt Allgemeiner has pointed
18out, that I was perfectly correct in this particular
19matter.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      There is a threat -- there is threat included in that, but
21it does not threaten death. If you look it up in a
22dictionary, Mr Irving, you will find it does not mean
23"will" die.
24 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, can I intervene to correct one completely
25false point that Mr Irving -- I know it is a small point,
26but it does offend my sense of fairness. He just ploughs

.   P-67



 1on. The reference to what von Below said, or is alleged
 2to have said, is on page 613 at note 44. The reference
 3which Mr Irving gives for what von Below is reported to
 4have said to him is "Author's interview of colonel
 5Nicolaus von Below, May 18th 1968". So the other nine
 6interviews can go hang. That is what Professor Irving is
 7referring to.
 8 MR IRVING:     And I draw attention to the fact that all that is
 9before you are the three pages and it was, obviously, an
10interview lasting many hours.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You put the pages before us, Mr Irving.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      I have to ask a question about that then. Is it right you
13have only had three pages of the original German
14transcript in discovery?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Is that the case? You will have to check what is in
16discovery. I cannot recall it, I am afraid.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, is it likely that the transcript of an interview
18lasting two or three hours would be longer than three
19pages if it is a verbatim transcript?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it likely that the original transcript therefore is in
22the archives in Munich and that only those three pages
23remained in my possession?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I really do not know; there is no reason why the whole lot
25should not have remained in your possession. I do not
26know what arrangements you made about making copies of the

.   P-68



 1material before you sent it to Munich.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      There is a lot that you really do not know then, is there
 3not? This is the problem; you are an expert witness on
 4this case, you had access to my papers and the archives
 5and yet your answer again and again is that you do not
 6know what is there, you did not see this, you did not find
 7that.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make now,
 9Mr Irving, in this specific sense. As you know, we had
10three people who also had other things to do, 18 months to
11go through 30 years of your work, and we did the best we
12could do in the time available. I am satisfied it was
13thoroughly done.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry to go back but you must
15realise that I need to understand what the issue is. You
16went to paragraph 11 of Professor Evans' report, page 261,
17and you had your argument with him about having to believe
18it.
19 MR IRVING:     The issue is purely which of us has the better
20knowledge of German, my Lord; it is only that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is, no doubt, a fascinating topic, but
22it is not one I am actually dealing with. The criticism
23is of what you wrote about Kristallnacht in Goebbels's
24biography.
25 MR IRVING:     Yes, which presupposes the knowledge of German.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Could you be kind enough to direct me to the

.   P-69



 1passage, where you quote, if you do quote, Goebbels saying
 2what he said.
 3 MR IRVING:     We have already had it better, in fact, in one of
 4his other expert reports. I think it has been quoted from
 5Longerich's report. We dealt with the matter of that ----
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is as may be, but would you be kind
 7enough to point me to where it is in your book one finds
 8the reference to this quote, so that I can make sense of
 9your criticism of the translation?
10 MR IRVING:     It is not in my book at all, my Lord, that
11passage. I rely on it purely as evidence of the fact that
12this witness does not have command of the German language
13that he should have, to be an expert on a difficult matter
14like what the Goebbels diaries mean, for example.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on.
16 MR IRVING:     Page 265, paragraph 8, the indented paragraph: You
17have not indicated in that paragraph that there is an
18omission, is that correct?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can you point me to it then, please?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      In footnote 66, you can see where the omission is in
21fourth line?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      There is an omission of about 20 or 30 words that have
24been taken out, is that right?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is indicated in the footnote; no, that's a typo. There
26should be been three dots there, but the footnote gives it

.   P-70



 1quite clearly.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      The words that have been left out are not reproduced in
 3either version, are they?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point, Mr Irving? Let us get to
 5the point. Obviously your case is that something
 6important has been omitted which affects what is there.
 7What is it that you say has been omitted?
 8 MR IRVING:     There are two points that I am saying. Firstly, we
 9cannot always be certain that the quotation given to us by
10this witness indicates when there have been omissions.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, Mr Irving, it does indicate.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is futile. I am not even going to
13trouble Professor Evans. That is an absolutely futile
14point. It is clear from the footnote. What are you
15saying is omitted that makes any difference?
16 MR IRVING:     The words left out are: "As far as I recall from
17these first reports, it already emerged that these actions
18had been set in motion by the party or by subordinate
19formations of a party whereupon, in my presence, Hitler
20gave Himmler the order that the SS must keep out of these
21events".
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Speaking for myself, that has no bearing at
23all on the point that is being made here which is that,
24according to Wolff, Himmler and Hitler were both
25surprised. Mr Irving, I am sorry to keep interrupting,
26but this cross-examination does not appear to me to be

.   P-71



 1grasping the nettle of the criticisms against you. You
 2are finding tiny little points on which you hope, and
 3sometimes succeed, in tripping up Professor Evans, but you
 4are not grappling with what the criticisms are of your
 5account of Kristallnacht. That is what you have to do, if
 6you are going to advance your case in relation to this
 7part of the criticism of you.
 8 MR IRVING:     There are so many criticisms made by this witness
 9of me that all I can really hope to do on any
10cross-examination is pick on central points, which I have
11done, like the events in Hitler's residence that night,
12and suggest that this witness is wrong in saying I had no
13sources for what I wrote.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not even touched on the inception of
15the events of this night, which is a key part of --
16Mr Rampton will correct me if I am wrong or Professor
17Evans will -- of their case on Kristallnacht that Hitler
18was in on it from the word go.
19 MR IRVING:     We dealt with that at very great length under
20cross-examination of myself, my Lord, and my belief was
21that I would be testing your Lordship's patience if I went
22all over that ground again.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the contrary, this part of Professor Evans
24is absolutely central. Professor Evans, I think, makes
25that point and you are taking tiny little points like
26whether a sentence has been left out of an account he

.   P-72



 1gives as part of his testimony. That just does not really
 2affect the issues that I have to decide at all.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I would have to say this, my Lord. It is as well
 4perhaps I say it now. Unless Mr Irving challenges
 5Professor Evans on this and other topics, upon the
 6foundation of his criticisms of Mr Irving's writings,
 7which is not in every case but in most cases and in all
 8important respects the way in which Mr Irving has treated
 9contemporary documents, then I am afraid I will take it
10that Mr Irving has accepted the criticisms.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will come back to that. That would, in the
12ordinary case, be a completely unarguable proposition for
13Mr Rampton. Maybe we will have to come back to it later
14on, but you hear what Mr Rampton says. I do think you
15have to actually tackle the fundamental points that are
16made in Professor Evans's report, and there is no point
17in, if I may put it this way, pussy footing around the
18borders of the issue because that is not going to help me,
19is it, really?
20 MR IRVING:     I was coming at it from the rear.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, I accept that.
22 MR IRVING:     I was trying to establish that this witness has an
23agenda of his own; that he is not reliable; that he
24distorts and manipulates evidence against me; that he is
25quite happy to ignore evidence which was before him for
26what I wrote; and that, on balance therefore, probably my

.   P-73



 1version of events is more accurate than his.
 2     Let me therefore just take one more point.
 3Would you go to page 266, please, where again you are
 4accusing me of falsification? Halfway down, four lines
 5from the bottom of that paragraph, you say: "Irving, for
 6his part, cites Goebbels diary entry, only first to cast
 7doubt on its validity as a source, then to falsify it by
 8reporting on the basis of this reference, not that Hitler
 9ordered the Jews arrested, but he failed to prevent them
10being taken to concentration camps".
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just pause, so that I understand what
13we are on at the moment?
14 MR IRVING:     Has your Lordship found it?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have found the paragraph but you plunged
16into the middle of it, so I am just trying to remind
17myself what he is talking about.
18 MR IRVING:     Again, I am accused of falsification. Is this
19relevant or not, my Lord?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it may be; it is not perhaps the most
21important point. Can you, Professor Evans, explain
22because I am not quite taking on board what you are saying
23in your paragraph 11?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to find the reference to the Goebbels ----.
25 MR IRVING:     Perhaps I can help you. If you go straight to
26Goebbels's biography, page 276, you will find where

.   P-74



 1I quoted exactly that passage.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts on the page?
 3 MR IRVING:     I am sorry, it is at the end of the second
 4paragraph, the sentence beginning: "The 'Fuhrer', claimed
 5Goebbels in the diary, 'has directed that 20 or 30,000
 6Jews are to be arrested immediately. That will do it.
 7Let them now see our patience is exhausted'". How can you
 8reconcile that quotation from the book with your
 9allegation that I falsified it, by reporting that not
10Hitler ordered the Jews arrested, but that he failed to
11prevent them being taken to concentration camps?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to find the reference to where you say he
13failed to take them.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      I have given you the actual quotation from the book where
15I stated that Hitler ordered them arrested.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Unfortunately, I do not have a reference there.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      20,000 or 30,000 were, in fact, arrested that night, were
18they not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      They were locked away for a few days and then released, is
21that correct?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Weeks, a few weeks, Mr Irving.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, the reference is the end of the first big
24paragraph on page 277, I believe. The first sentence
25begins: "But 20,000 were already -- -- ", but I am not
26sure.

.   P-75



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot find this. Yes, but 20,000 Jews were already
 2being loaded on to trucks and transported to concentration
 3camps at Dachau, Buchenwald, Oranienburg. Hitler made no
 4attempt to halt this inhumanity. He ordered it,
 5Mr Irving, and, in fact, as you indeed quote Goebbels --
 6but however you say in the passage that you are quoting on
 7page 276: "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in the
 8diary,'has directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
 9arrested immediately'".
10 MR IRVING:     So, I state precisely what you say that
11I concealed?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You are saying it is claimed, you are not saying that it
13is an accurate report. You go on, on page 277, to say
14that Hitler's involvement was limited to making no attempt
15to stop it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where do I say Hitler's involvement was limited to making
17no attempt to stop it, when I made it quite clear on page
18276 that he ordered their arrest?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, you do not, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The Fuhrer has directed 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
21arrested immediately". How else can you interpret that?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in the diary, 'has
23directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be arrested
24immediately'".
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Goebbels is our source for it, is he not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is one source. The other source is the telegram of

.   P-76



 1Muller ordering the arrests.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you make any reference ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a telex.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you make any reference in your report to this early
 5quotation on page 276 of my book?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, the third line. What is the evidence
 8for saying that Hitler ordered them to be taken to the
 9concentration camps as opposed to having them arrested?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      There are two pieces of evidence -- well, three. One is
11the fact that they were taken to concentration camps; the
12second one is the Muller telegram which ordered the
13arrests; and the third one is the Goebbels diary.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hang on. Goebbels's diary does not say
15anything about having all of them taken to concentration
16camps, does it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, just arrested.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, the evidence for that, saying he ordered
19them to be taken to concentration camps, consists of ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, my Lord, I think one has to work it out. They could
21only really have been taken to state prisons, because you
22needed a regular legal trial to put people in state
23prisons. So this has to be an action that takes place
24outside the regular legal framework, a penal system. You
25cannot keep them in police cells. If you have that number
26of people, the only place you can put them in is

.   P-77



 1concentration camps and, of course, that indeed is what
 2happened. The Muller telex is quoted on pages 265 to
 3266.
 4 MR IRVING:     Does the final sentence (on page 277) of that
 5paragraph, "Hitler made no attempt to halt this
 6inhumanity. He stood by, and thus deserved the odium that
 7now fell on all Germany", not refer to the whole episode?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me just read: "20,000 Jews were already loaded onto
 9and transported to the concentration camps at Dachau,
10Buchenwald and Oranienburg. Hitler had made no attempt to
11halt this inhumanity. He stood by." He did not stand by,
12Mr Irving, he ordered the whole thing. He ordered the
13arrests and he ordered the burning of the synagogues, and
14he ordered the destruction of Jewish shops and dwellings.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      And?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He ordered the arrests, and he did not merely stand by.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have I left any doubt in the minds of the readers that, in
18fact, he went further and that he ordered a massive fine
19on the Jewish community and various punitive measures?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You accept that after the event.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      I accept this. Is this another concession by me or have I
22stated this in accordance with what the documents tell us?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You point me to where you state this, please. You
24certainly said that, in court, Hitler ordered the economic
25measures against the Jews.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is another source which I rely on, Professor Evans, the

.   P-78



 1diary of the SA commander Viktor Lutze?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I rely on it quite extensively, because his men were
 4involved that night, were they not?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Were you able to check my references?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let me have a look. No, I am afraid we ----.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know where the diary is now?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in the Friedrich Ebe Stiftung, I think.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it in the archives of the Friedrich Ebe Stiftung which
11is equivalent of the archives of the Labour Party in
12Germany?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, the report of the Social Democrat Party archive.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did I have complete access to that diary when I wrote that
15book?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I assume so, since you cited that we were denied access.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      I had access to the source and you were denied access to
18it?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it possible therefore that there are things in the
21diary of Viktor Lutze of which you were unaware?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Such as?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, give me some examples. Show me.
24 MR IRVING:     The fact that he was personally opposed to the
25pogrom and ordered that it should not occur, and that the
26SA people should not participate in it.

.   P-79



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you show me the passages in the diary where he says
 2that, please.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am referring to paragraph 1 on page 246.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     246 of what?
 5 MR IRVING:     Of his expert report, my Lord.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Sorry, I have forgotten what the question was now.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      In broad general terms, is it likely that, having had
 9access to the diary of Viktor Lutze, and your not having
10had access to it, therefore I know more about what is in
11the diary than you do?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, that is true but, of course, it has to be regarded
13with extreme suspicion. What you claim is that Lutze had
14misgivings, that indeed he ordered the SA not to stay out,
15and that only three of the 28 SA groups received orders to
16stage demonstrations.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the source for that -- I am sorry to
18interrupt again -- is not Lutze but Juttner.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, if you look at note 34 on page 251, we do
20have indication that I had the diary of Lutze, that I was
21using it and relying on it.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but we are really looking at footnote
2331. It is perfectly true you do there refer to the diary
24entry of Lutze, but that does not say what you put in your
25text. What you put in your text comes from gruppenFuhrer
26Max Juttner.

.   P-80



 1 MR IRVING:     As well, yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not as well.
 3 MR IRVING:     Obviously one relies on many different sources when
 4one is writing that but, in view of the fact that I had
 5the Lutze diary which has not been available like many
 6other documents to the Defence, this is the picture I am
 7trying to build up. I have had a lot of documents that
 8have not been available to the expert witnesses in this
 9case.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am bound to say I find that a bit bizarre.
11If you have first hand evidence from Lutze as to what he
12said, why would you cite somebody else as support for what
13you say in your text Lutze said?
14 MR IRVING:     Well, when you look at note 34, where we have the
15German text of one fragment of what the Lutze diary
16contains, the problem is once again that all my records
17have been donated to the German government archives in
18Bonn in June 1993, after this passage was written, and
19I no longer have the Lutze diary. I have filing cards,
20but that is all I have left.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      What we had access to of course were your notes, as this
22footnote says, on the Lutze diary.
23 MR IRVING:     But in view of the fact that you write on page 251
24quite robustly at the end of paragraph 1, once more
25Irving's account relies on a tissue of inventions,
26manipulations, suppressions and omissions, and I have been

.   P-81



 1telling you for the last two hours there are numbers of
 2documents to which you paid no attention or to which you
 3have had no access, this is probably an over robust
 4verdict. Would you agree?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, this is your account that Hitler did "everything he
 6could to prevent things nasty happening" to the Jews in
 7the pogrom of 8, 9, particularly 9 and 10 of November
 81938. That is your account and it does indeed rely on a
 9tissue of inventions, manipulations, suppressions and
10omissions.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You describe even now the interview with von Below, the
12Schaub papers, the Bruckner papers, whatever they were,
13as being just this tissue of inventions?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think you accept their lies as being truth because
15that supports your line.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      You think that I accept their lies as being true?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Because it supports my line?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      You have no evidence for that at all, apart from the fact
21that there are a number of documents which can be
22interpreted in a different way. Would you consider the
23Eberstein telegram, the one signed by Eberstein during the
24night -- do you remember the one?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a triggering, an igniting telegram, is it not?

.   P-82



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. I do not think it is an igniting telegram. The
 2igniting event of course was Goebbels' speech at
 310 o'clock to the senior party people, the SA leaders.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Perhaps we should have a look at that telegram. Can we
 5identify the two page telegram, the one with the
 6typescript signature of von Eberstein?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is probably in L2, is it not?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     That is L2, tab 1, page 7.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think I have this.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you will see I am now working backwards
11from Hitler's fury or from round about that time. It is a
12two-page telegram, is it not, typescript?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      And, if you look at the second page, it has two signatures
15on it. One is the typescript signature of von Eberstein?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Who was the police chief of Munich and Bavaria?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is counter signed in handwriting by a
20Kanzellaiungestelter, which is some kind of Chancellery
21official?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Clerk, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Eberstein has not signed it himself, has he?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. It seems to be a copy. It is a copy indeed.
25Abschrift.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the German Civil Service method of

.   P-83



 1occasionally sending out telegrams over the signature of
 2the boss?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which does not necessarily mean that the boss is actually
 5there when it is being sent out? It is just his authority
 6that it is being sent out on?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course, done with his authority.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the fact that this is a telegram signed at 2.10 a.m. in
 9typescript by Eberstein does not necessarily mean that
10Eberstein is physically at the police headquarters at that
11moment? He might be somewhere completely different?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a possibility, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. So that it is entirely within the bounds of
14possibility that at this moment Eberstein, unaware that
15this was going on, was at Hitler's residence, having
16strips torn off him by his boss, by Hitler, while somebody
17else had said, you had better send this message out over
18Eberstein's signature because there has to be this going
19on tonight. It is an igniting telegram, is it not, of a
20sort? He is saying about the police standing back and the
21synagogues are going to be burning and this kind of thing,
22is it not?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is very similar to previous telegrams, the Muller and
24the Heydrich telegrams. I do not really think it is very
25likely that Eberstein was unaware of the fact that this
26rather important telegram was being sent out under his

.   P-84



 1name. I find that very difficult to believe. They had
 2have telephones of course in Germany at this time.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      If at this moment Eberstein was in Hitler's residence, it
 4would still be possible for this telegram to be is sent
 5out by police headquarters, over his typed name
 6authenticated by this staff member, would it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The telephone, you say?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is the way that the German bureaucracy works
 9sometimes. The order would go out over the name of the
10boss, but it would be signed by some responsible official
11on his part, on his behalf?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think, though, he would have known about it, of
13course. The boss would have been apprised of it. He
14simply would not have been in a physical position to sign
15it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      So, if we have 2 or 3 people on Hitler's staff who say
17that Eberstein was here with them at that time, then it is
18not necessarily contradicted by the existence of this
19telegram with Eberstein's typed signature on it?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is possible there might have been a telephone
21conversation, as I said. We do not have any evidence of
22that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the message that went out very
24shortly afterwards over the signature of Opdenhof of
25Rudolf Hess's staff?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is at 2.56 a.m.?

.   P-85



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is page 9 of tab 1.
 4 MR IRVING:     One of those messages has an igniting function, if
 5I can put it like that, and the other message has an
 6extinguishing function?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not accept either of those claims.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      If the second message timed at 2.56 on the notepaper of
 9the Deputy Fuhrer orders that actions are to stop, then
10this has an extinguishing function?
11 MR RAMPTON:     I think it might be proper to get Professor Evans
12to translate this short little message as he stands in the
13witness box, rather than receiving what to my mind is a
14completely pie-eyed version.
15 MR IRVING:     I think it would be very nice if I was allowed to
16conduct my cross-examination in the manner I wish.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could we see this document.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember this fairly well but it would be
19helpful if we just read it through together.
20 MR IRVING:     It is noticeable that every time I am about to make
21a killer point----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page 9 is ----
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is my function, Mr Irving, I am afraid.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a very brief telegram.
25 MR IRVING:     I promise that I will interrupt your killer
26points.

.   P-86



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I have give a translation, my Lord?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, if the conversation in the background
 3ceases.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a telegram at 2.56 a.m. on 10th November 1938 from
 5the Brown House in Munich to all Gau leaderships.
 6 MR IRVING:     Can you translate the heading too then please?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Telegram via the propaganda writer, whatever that is.
 8 MR IRVING:     It is on the headed notepaper of the deputy of the
 9Fuhrer, is it not?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not in the copy I have here, no.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      In that case you had better have one of these copies then
12which is the genuine telegram.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Thank you. That is very helpful.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      And not the version produced by the Defence.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. National socialist German Workers Party. It is
16very difficult to read this. Is that deputy of the Fuhrer
17staff? I am guessing. Munich 33, 10th November.
18 MR IRVING:     The office of the Deputy of the Fuhrer.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. It is whited out here on my copy, I am afraid.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      To all Gau leaderships for immediate ----
22 MR IRVING:     To be put into immediate effect?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, immediate effect, ordnance No. 174/38, repeat of the
24----
25 MR IRVING:     Repetition of the telegram of November 10th.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      November 10th 1938, on the emphatic command of the all

.   P-87



 1highest position.
 2 MR IRVING:     Acts of arson?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Acts, well, arson on Jewish shops or ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Businesses?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Shops or similar.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Shop would be Larden, would it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, Gescheft. I think you yourself translated Gescheft as
 8shop in the witness box, Mr Irving.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is how Mr Irving translated it when I first
10asked him to do it.
11 MR IRVING:     Businesses is more precise.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, shops, Mr Irving.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that it makes a huge amount of
14difference, actually?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does, my Lord, I am afraid, but still.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      I am not sure it does.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not in this particular context.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      That is what I was talking about.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Arson and Jewish shops or the like must not ----
20 MR IRVING:     Business.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      -- happen.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Establishment.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry. May I translate it, Mr Irving, please? Arson or
24the laying of fire in Jewish shops or the like may not or
25must not take place under any circumstances and in no
26case, and so on. That is the essence of it.

.   P-88



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Pretty emphatic, is it not?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. What it is saying is that nobody is to set light to
 3Jewish shops or ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Businesses.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      -- or similar kinds of premises. It is not saying that
 6nobody is to arrest the Jews. It is not saying that
 7nobody should smash the shops up. It is not saying that
 8nobody should smash up the apartments and houses of Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, I have not asked you what it does not say.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say that nobody should commit arson against
11many hundreds of synagogues which were burnt down.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Professor, I have not asked you what it does not say.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      What it does not say, Mr Irving, is extremely important.
14This is a very limited telegram which says that Jewish
15shops and similar kinds of premises are not to be set
16alight. The reason for that is very similar, it is the
17same kind of telegram that ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does it say similar businesses?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I finish my answer, Mr Irving, please? It is the same
20kind of telegram that went out from Heydrich at 1.20 or
21from Muller at 11.55. That is to say, it is saying that
22laying fire to Jewish shops at similar apartments,
23whatever it might be, is not to be allowed because of
24course it endangers the surrounding premises, which are
25owned by Germans ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Where does it say that?

.   P-89



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you please not interrupt?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And, of course, some of these shops may well have been
 3owned by Germans. That is all it is saying. It is very
 4limited. It does not say, "Bring the whole thing to an
 5end". That is a completely illegitimate interpretation of
 6this document.
 7 MR IRVING:     Where does it say, "because of the danger to
 8surrounding premises"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I am going back there to ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, I am looking at this telegram. Let us just look at
11one document at a time, please?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say that, but that is my interpretation of the
13reason.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we look at what it does say and not what it does not
15say?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Indeed, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Because that, surely, is where the evidence is?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      It goes to all the Gauleiters, is that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      What, about 48 of the senior Nazi Party officials though
22the entire country?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is telling them there are to be no acts of arson
25against Jewish Geschafte, whatever that is. I translate
26that as "businesses".

.   P-90



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Shops.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      And "der Gleichen", what does that mean?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "And similar".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      What does the "similar" mean? Similar to businesses or
 5similar to acts?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Similar to business, of course, Mr Irving.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      On what basis do you say that? Your knowledge of German?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because it is Geschafte oder der Gleichen. Had it been
 9"arson", it would have been "[German] Oder der
10Gleichen". It is quite clear. It is a shameless
11manipulation of this text to suggest that it says that
12"arson and similar acts".
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is this based on your ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite clearly not.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- superior knowledge of the German language?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is based on my knowledge of the German language which
17is a good knowledge of the German language, Mr Irving.
18I am not claiming my knowledge is superior to yours. You
19also have a very good knowledge of the German language.
20That is why I say this is a shameless manipulation of the
21text. It is not due to mere ignores.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      It would be useful if you could keep your answers a little
23bit shorter and more to the point.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I know you do not like what I am saying, Mr Irving, but
25I shall say what I want to unless I am told not to by his
26Lordship.

.   P-91



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Otherwise Mr Rampton will complain about the expense
 2again. That is why I am trying to keep these answers
 3brief. If it says "Brandlegungen an Judenschen Geschaften
 4oder der Gleichen", and you say that if the word "der
 5Gleichen" was going to refer to the "Brandlegungen", then
 6it would have to go immediately after "Brandlegungen".
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Brandlegungen oder der Gleichen an Judenschen
 9Geschaften".
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      But then that would make nonsense, would it not?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Why?
15 MR IRVING:     Because all you could do with the businesses as an
16object would be to set them on fire or to demolish them or
17whatever, whereas my contention is that the "der Gleichen"
18refers to acts of arson and the "der Gleichen" refers to
19other actions being carried out during that night which
20can amount to all sorts of different things.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Like?
22 MR IRVING:     Well, whatever was going on that night, my Lord.
23We know already in great detail what was going on that
24night, the arrests, the murders, the outrageous, the
25harassment, the violence, and that ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So your case is -- I am interested because I

.   P-92



 1have not heard this before -----
 2 MR IRVING:     --- the "der Gleichen" can refer equally ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That this meant that all criminal, violent
 4activities should stop, although it refers to arson? Your
 5case, Mr Irving?
 6 MR IRVING:     I was hoping that we had Mr Rampton's undivided
 7attention.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am just having confirmation from a German
 9speaker behind me of your Lordship's interpretation.
10 MR IRVING:     Are you wishing to give evidence, Mr Rampton,
11because, if so, perhaps we ought to wait until we have a
12German in the witness box who we can cross-examine
13properly on this matter. No doubt we will when the time
14comes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I asked you a question.
16 MR IRVING:     My contention is (and I am putting this to this
17witness) that it is equally possible that "der Gleichen"
18refers either to the businesses or to the "Brandlegungun",
19if I can put it like that?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is absolutely ridiculous. It is a completely
21illegitimate misinterpretation and manipulation of this
22text.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Very well. We have your answers. In your considered
24view, that is an impossible interpretation?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right. I have already said it would have been
26"Brandlegungen oder der Gleichen an Judenschen

.   P-93



 1Geschaften" because it says "Brandlegungen an Judenschen
 2Geschaften oder der Gleichen". "Der Gleichen" refers to
 3Judenschen Geschaften".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      You are ploughing once again the depths of your
 5considerable knowledge of the German language, "alle
 6hochste Stelle", to whom does that refer?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That must refer to Hitler.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      That must refer to Adolf Hitler. There is no question
 9about that then.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would seem that ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is not a janitorial level order then, this one?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, no.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      This comes from the very top man.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. Hitler is saying here, "Go ahead with burning down
15synagogues. Go ahead with wrecking Jewish shops and
16smashing up the interiors. Go ahead with arresting 20,000
17people. Go ahead with smashing up Jewish apartments,
18destroying the furniture, chucking it out of the window,
19throwing some of the inhabitants out of the window. Go
20ahead with all of that, but don't commit arson on Jewish
21shops or similar premises".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      You read all of that out of these three lines, do you?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I think what is omitted from here is more
24significant in a way than what is in here.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am looking at a document you do not have,
26Professor -- well, you have it but you are not looking at

.   P-94



 1it -- and it has got "Brandlegungen an Judenschen
 2Geschaften" underlined. Is that in the version you are
 3looking at? Is it underlined?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mr Irving's version is not underlined.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So somebody has done that later is the point?
 6 MR IRVING:     Effectively, yes, my Lord. I should amplify that
 7the version which is here is originally a negative copy
 8which is in the files of the Berlin Document Centre and
 9there is no question as to its authenticity.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I accept that.
11 MR IRVING:     Professor, have you ever seen this document
12reproduced or printed or quoted at any time before
13I published it in my work in 1977? Has any German
14historian or non-German historian deigned to use this
15document?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any reason why an orders from the very highest
18level, in other words, from Adolf Hitler to all
19the Gauleiters concerning the Reichskristallnacht should
20have been suppressed in this manner if it was so innocent,
21as you suggest, if it just fits in with the general
22pattern?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not know that it was suppressed, Mr Irving. I cannot
24say.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, there appeared to be at least two different copies
26of it in existence, the one which the Defence provided and

.   P-95



 1my different version, so I found it easily enough. So is
 2there any reason you can suggest why historians have been
 3embarrassed about it and have preferred not to use it?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think it is true that historians have been
 5embarrassed about it. There is nothing to be embarrassed
 6about here at all. It fits in perfectly well into the
 7other documents we have from that same disastrous and
 8ghastly evening.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      A document showing Adolf Hitler intervening at 2.56
10through his deputy, through the office of his deputy,
11ordering a halt to whatever, or a stop, a veto on however
12narrow a front you wish to portray it, did not deserve any
13kind of comment by the entire assembled body of historians
14around the world?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mr Irving, you have already said that the telex of
16Heydrich at 1.20 was the result of discussions between
17Hitler and Himmler, the Muller telex earlier in the
18evening was also on Hitler's orders, and all of these
19things say roughly the same thing. We can look at the
20other telexes, if you like. They all, taken together,
21represent the attempt by Hitler to make sure that German
22property was not damaged, and that foreign -- it is not in
23this one, but it is in the other ones -- that foreign Jews
24were not to be harmed because of the diplomatic
25consequences. None of these documents, certainly not
26this one, puts it in any way -- attempting to put the

.   P-96



 1whole action to an end.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      So why have other historians not quoted it?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is part of a stream of documents. There is nothing
 4surprising or new or novel or shocking about this one.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Why have other historians not quoted a brief telegram
 6which is on the authority of the very highest level in a
 7matter of such importance?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to ask them.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, I am asking you as ----
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think it surprises ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- the expert on historiography. You have written books
12on the way people write history.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, can I just ask you this
14question? If, indeed, the telex or the message, whatever
15it is, had said, "Stop everything", would you then agree
16that it would be surprising that historians have ignored
17it, as Mr Irving suggests?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think that historians would have deliberately
19suppressed it, had it said that. I mean, I can only
20assume that ----
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      That is not quite an answer to my question.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I know.
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      What I am really saying is that if, indeed, Hitler had
24decided at 2.56 in the morning that everything must
25stop ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-97



 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      --- would that be something that you would expect somebody
 2giving an account, an historian giving an account, of
 3Kristallnacht would include in his account or her account?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, most certainly because it would change our entire
 5picture of the whole series of events, and you would then
 6have to explain, of course, why lower police officials
 7sent out orders for the actions to start later in the
 8morning, why the Reichskristallnacht events only really
 9began in the morning well after this of the 10th November
10in Vienna, for example, and this would cast very
11interesting light on why Hitler's orders were not followed
12if that was the case.
13     I mean, I should also say I am here simply
14accepting Mr Irving's suggestion that other historians
15have not quoted this, although he himself says he does not
16read other historians, so...
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Yes, well, assuming that.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If may well be that if I had time to check up in detail
19through the literature of other historians, I might find
20that they had quoted this before 1977.
21 MR IRVING:     But we assume that you have read all the literature
22on the Reiskristallnacht because you are an expert witness
23on this.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I would have to -- this is one small document, and I
25would have to go back and check it all. I do not have a
26photographic memory.

.   P-98



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is small in as much as it contains only three lines,
 2but it does rely on the authority of the very top level in
 3the Third Reich in the middle of the night on the Night of
 4Broken Glass ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, but so ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- and yet nobody else quoted it except me?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, how can you say that if you do not read other
 8historians' work, Mr Irving?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, I am asking you as the expert on historiography.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And you are just telling me, and I am telling you that you
11have no right to say that. You do not read what other
12historians have written on the subject. You have no idea.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, I believe that we would have had an echo by now.
14I have been waving this document in the air for the last
1525 years, saying, "Look what I found. Why have you not
16quoted it?" I remembered a mass meeting at the University
17of Bonn saying precisely this, and advising the students
18to ask their professors afterwards why they were hearing
19it from me for the first time. So, surely, somebody would
20have said, "Mr Irving, you are not first"?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I am not sure I believe you, Mr Irving, I am afraid.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      You are not sure you believe me?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. I would have to go up and check the literature to see
24whether this document was quoted and it would not surprise
25me if it was.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Will you accept the proposition that if my interpretation

.   P-99



 1of the document is correct, that Adolf Hitler was hereby
 2acting on the information that he had received during the
 3previous hour as described by the Adjutants, the three of
 4whom I have related earlier this morning, he was
 5determined to stop this nonsense and he telephoned Rudolf
 6Hess and said, "Send an immediate message to the
 7Gauleiters", that if this signal meant that, this would be
 8an embarrassment to the historical profession?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Too many ifs there, Mr Irving. I do not accept a single
10part of your premises, I am afraid.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      But that, in a way, answers my question, does it not,
12because it is an embarrassing document for the historians
13to have a look at?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not an embarrassing document at all. It does not
15really say very much.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      So it does not say all the things you said earlier, about
17"Go out and burn the synagogues and arrest the 20,000",
18you said that you could read all that into it.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      All it says, Mr Irving, is that there should be no arson
20in Jewish shops or similar premises under any
21circumstances. That is all it says. This is in the
22middle of the evening where all over the country
23synagogues are being burned down. Everybody knows that
24synagogue are being burned down. I do not see any mention
25of synagogues here, and I do not think you can describe
26them as being like shops, although I am not very familiar

.   P-100



 1with synagogues.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, my feeling is that we could
 3probably move on. I think we have really explored this
 4issue.
 5 MR IRVING:     Except, my Lord, that he said this was the middle
 6of the evening and, of course, that is not. It is the
 7middle of the night. It is 2.56 a.m. which fits ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, night, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- in precisely with the timetable that I have adumbrated
10from the very start of my writings on the
11Reichskristallnacht. That is why i attach such importance
12to it.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is a completely phoney timetable, Mr Irving, based on
14the manipulation and falsification of the material that
15you have got before you and the acceptance of lies told by
16people involved after the war simply because they support
17your belief or your attempts to show that Hitler did not
18order all these goings on and was not cognizant of them
19and tried to stop them when he found out about them. It
20is a tissue of your lies on your part, Mr Irving, based on
21the shameless manipulation of documents like this whose
22meaning is absolutely obvious to anybody with even the
23most elementary knowledge of German.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, you accept that I do not have just an elementary
25knowledge of German, do you not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite.

.   P-101



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you still feel entitled to trot out all those
 2adjectives again, the tissue of lies, the manipulations,
 3the distortions and so on, because that is the only kind
 4of language you can use to confront a document like this,
 5is that right?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not confronting a document like this. It is the use
 7you make of it that I am commenting on which I find quite
 8extraordinary.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which do you find more extraordinary, the fact that no
10other historian has quoted that document or the fact that
11I do quote it?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you remember a few moments ago
13I said that I thought we ----
14 MR IRVING:     You said we should move on, my Lord, yes, right.
15(To the witness): What is the evidence that we do have
16for the fact that Adolf Hitler initiated the pogrom
17therefore?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The Goebbels speech to the Party at the 10th -- at 10 p.m.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      What transcript do we have of that speech, if any?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is in his -- well, that is -- there are two, I think
21two relevant documents there, in particular, one is, of
22course, Goebbels own diary, and the other is the Party
23tribunal investigation.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      The Party tribunal, of course, only refers to the fact
25that Goebbels triggered the events ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well ----

.   P-102



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- according to the ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      All right. Can we have a look at the Party tribunal
 3report then, please? It is very brief.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 2, my Lord.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Tab 2 of this?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I seem to have a loose leafed folder here.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 2 of L2.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. In the first very opening paragraph it says, if I
10may translate: "On the evening of 9th November 1938,
11Reichs Propaganda Minister Party Comrade, Dr Goebbels,
12informed the Party leaders gathered for a comradely
13evening in the Old Town Hall in Munich that there had been
14anti-Jewish demonstrations in the Gals, Hessner,
15Nanteburg, Anhaut, and thereby Jewish shops had been
16smashed up and synagogues had been set on fire.
17     The Fuhrer had" -- this is reported speech of
18what Goebbels was saying -- "the Fuhrer had decided on his
19report that such demonstrations, these kinds of
20demonstrations, should neither be prepared by the Party",
21I mean "should neither in future", as it were, "be
22prepared by the Party nor organized by it in so far as
23they emerged or arose spontaneously, but they were not to
24be opposed".
25 MR IRVING:     Now was Adolf Hitler present when Goebbels made
26these remarks, allegedly?

.   P-103



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, the Party court accepted that this was the case, of
 2course, that these remarks were accurate.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Accepted that what was the case?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That Hitler never intervened to say, as surely he would
 5have done, that he had not given this permission.
 6Goebbels had dinner with Hitler on the evening of the 9th
 7November, immediately before the speech, and what he said
 8in his speech was, essentially, what Hitler told him at
 9the dinner, as you agreed under cross-examination.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you answer my question? Was Hitler present when
11Goebbels made these alleged remarks to the Gauleiters?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has answered that question.
13 MR IRVING:     In other words, he was not present?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He said no.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes. The only evidence we have, therefore, for
16there having been such a conversation between Hitler and
17Goebbels is Goebbels' reported speech, as reported four
18months later by the Supreme Party court, in other words,
19it is a third party source?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think it is in his, well, this is an investigation of
21the events of that evening by a Party court ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the report ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- under the chairmanship of a man who -- Buch, I think
24his name was.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Walter Buch?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Walter Buch who was rather hostile to Goebbels.

.   P-104



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      I was about to come to that point. What was the
 2relationship between the Chairman of the Party court and
 3Dr Goebbels about whom he is writing?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not very good.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Not very good at all, were they? In fact, if you read the
 6Goebbels diaries, there was most outspoken hostility
 7between them. They loathed each other. Is that correct?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it correct towards the end of the same report it
10justifies the actions of a number of the criminals
11involved in the outrages on the basis that they believed
12that they were acting in accordance with the Fuhrer's
13wishes?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right. Let us have a look at that passage, can
15we?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does that not imply that ----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can we have a look at that passage, please?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- in fact they believed wrongly?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where is it?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I would like to see the passage, if
21that is what you are saying, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING:     I am stating this from memory, my Lord. I do not
23have it in front of me, but I am familiar with the
24document.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can someone provide Mr Irving with the document, please?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it part of the same report?

.   P-105



 1 MR IRVING:     It is.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it is a question of finding it.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     He needs L2, my Lord.
 4 MR IRVING:     I am pretty certain that the tenor of the report
 5was that these outrages and crimes had been ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is the final sentence in the report. Do you want me to
 7wait until you have it?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think you had better because the
 9suggestion is that when it says that they believed they
10were acting on a Hitler order, it is really implying that
11they knew they were not. Is that the suggestion?
12 MR IRVING:     Well, my suggestion is that the document casts
13doubt on whether there was actually such an order.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
15 MR IRVING:     After a time when you have been studying these
16documents over the years, they become part of your
17microchip and I am quite familiar with the document
18and ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, let us fresh your microchip. I cannot
20find it actually.
21 MR IRVING:     [German - document not provided].
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Would you like to translate that?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whereabouts are you? I had better find it.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page 188, it is the tab 2.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     188?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Or -- no, 10 in the pencilled circle mark. Page 10.

.   P-106



 1Sorry. It is the typed 188. Yes, well, do you want me to
 2translate that? This is after a long catalogue of crimes
 3of theft, looting and rape and so on, and it says that,
 4"The individual perpetrators had put into action, not
 5merely the supposed will of the leadership, but the to be
 6sure vague, vaguely expressed but correctly recognized
 7will of the leadership". So the Party court is saying
 8that these people pleased they were acting after the
 9command of the leadership and they were right to believe
10so.
11 MR IRVING:     Without wishing to cast any judgment on the
12language used by lawyers, this is a very legalistic
13document and it is the sentence before the one that has
14been read out says, in effect, "These people, if this did
15not happen, then from the fact, as also from the remarks
16they made, we can draw the conclusion that the eventual
17result was desired or at least as considered to be a
18likelihood and desirable, and that this was taken into
19account, and from that fact, therefore, the people who had
20acted in that way had reason to believe that they might
21have been acting in accordance with the Fuhrer's will".
22It is a terribly legalistic kind of ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mr Irving, this is a document that says that these people
24were right to recognize that the leadership willed these
25crimes, and the consequence of this, and we have already
26been through this and your cross-examination, if I may

.   P-107



 1continue, was that those, the culprits were, that Hitler,
 2that Hitler's permission or command was sought to let all
 3of these people off any kind of prosecution in the regular
 4courts with the exception of two who had raped Jewish
 5women and, therefore, were considered to have committed a
 6race defilement.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, here comes the smoke screen again. It is the
 8sentence before that counts though, is it not, because the
 9sentence you have quoted begins with the words "in that
10case" or "then", "dann"?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry. I have lost you now or you have lost me.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      And that refers to the previous sentence which is, in
13fact, the saying that they may have got it wrong, they may
14have got it right, but the fact remains they believed that
15they were acting in accordance with the Fuhrer's will,
16perceived or otherwise, and so on. It is terribly
17tangled, but the sentence beginning with "then" relies on
18the previous sentence, in that case or that being so?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, but it says "richtig erkannten Willenfuhrer" -- "the
20correctly recognized will of the leadership". That is a
21completely unambiguous sentence.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am going to have to sit down and write a translation of
23that final paragraph for your Lordship, I think.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The court is saying that -- the court is saying that the
25will of the leadership was vaguely expressed, but
26correctly recognized by these people and, therefore,

.   P-108



 1because they not only thought that they were acting on its
 2behalf but actually were and, therefore, the final
 3sentence is "dafur kann er nicht bestrafft werden" -- "he
 4cannot be punished for that".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Will you please read the sentence before the sentence
 6beginning with the word "dann", then, in that case
 7because ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      OK. Well, this goes back now.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "dann" refers to "in that case" and obviously we need
10to know in what case, "dann". The sentence before. It is
11very complicated, but I rely on that one too, of course.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, a couple of sentences before says that -- I am going
13further and further back into this document -- it is
14talking about the murders. It is really about the murders
15of the 91.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Forget the murders. Let us please get on to----
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, this is what the document is about. I am not going to
18forget them, Mr Irving. Let us remember here we are
19talking about murder and whether or not the murderers
20listed here should be handed over to the regular courts.
21It says that, "In the course of the night of 9th to 10th
22November, most of these killings could have been stopped,
23prevented, by an additional command". So what they are
24saying there, in other words, is that if the leadership,
25Hitler, had not wanted these people to be killed, he would
26have sent out a telegram saying so, but he did not. So,

.   P-109



 1"Wenn dies nicht geschafft", that says "when" or, in
 2other words, "because this did not happen", i.e. there was
 3no telegram saying stop the killings, prevent the
 4killings ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      "If this did not happen"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "if this did not happen, so the" ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The conclusion has to be drawn from this fact"?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "The conclusion must be drawn from this fact".
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "And from the statement of such"?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "And from the statement that the eventual" ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Outcome"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- "success was wished or desired or at the very least
13was" -----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Considered to be likely or" ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "desirable"?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "was presented", really, "presented", I guess, "as at
18least as possible and desired or taken into consideration
19as being possible and desired". And then it goes on. It
20is a convoluted sentence, but the meaning is quite clear.
21It is saying because there was not any command from the
22Party leadership that Jews should not be killed, then it
23was OK that they were and, therefore, these peopled who
24killed them should not be punished.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Let me cut through the Gordian knot -----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I just ask one question because I am

.   P-110



 1slightly puzzled. The very last sentence is in the
 2singular.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ah, yes. I think they are referring to Falshenk(?) which
 4is on the previous page, who had killed a Polish Jew.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      I see.
 6 MR IRVING:     Can I now ask one question ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I just finish? I mean, do you read the
 8fact that he cannot be punished as connected with the
 9previous reference to what the Fuhrer wanted or the Fuhren
10wanted.
11 MR IRVING:     I think Fuhrer and Fuhren is the same.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I mean, it is a kind of, well -- sorry, I have to
13slightly revise my previous opinion. I have just looked
14at it. It says [German], so the heir(?), the singular,
15you are quite right in recognizing.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is a representative villain?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is then the individual perpetrator is what they are
18referring to when they say he cannot be punished.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      So it is a sort of collective singular, yes?
20 MR IRVING:     But the reference is to the perception of a Fuhrer
21order, rather than to the actual Fuhrer order. I am sure
22your Lordship will appreciate that the argument is if he
23thought he was acting on a Fuhrer order, then we should
24let him off the hook?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, my Lord, that is not the case.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it said that, I would agree with you, but

.   P-111



 1it goes on say, not only did they think they were acting
 2on a Hitler order -- this is my perception of it at the
 3moment -- but that they were right in thinking they were
 4acting on a Hitler order.
 5 MR IRVING:     I think we will have a proper translation of that
 6final paragraph. We really need that. I will now ask one
 7question which should cut through the Gordian ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, let me just make the point, my Lord. I think you
 9entirely right there. [German] is "the correctly
10recognized will of the leadership". It is completely --
11it is absolutely unambiguous.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes, but the first word, of course, in this case
13"dann" means "in that case", does it not, if the above is
14true?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, it is drawing a conclusion from the fact that there
16was no order from the leadership preventing the murders.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      So now I will ask the question which will cut through the
18Gordian knot. The question is if there had been a Fuhrer
19order to the knowledge of the Supreme Part court, would
20they not here have said so in this document?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Preventing the murders? Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, if there had not been a Fuhrer order on the basis of
23which all these murders were committed or these outrages
24were committed, would this Party court document not have
25made that completely clear?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does. There was not a Party, a Fuhrer order and it

.   P-112



 1does say that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      It says that there was not a Fuhrer order. Have
 3I understood you? You are frowning.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I think that is right -- I am just looking at the
 5text again. We have been through this. Yes, it describes
 6[German- documents not provided] So, you know, even so, I
 7do want to translate it all over again, Mr Irving. This
 8is really repeating what we have said already. It says:
 9"There was no order preventing -- there was no order
10issued preventing these killings" and, therefore, one has
11to conclude from that that the leadership wanted them,
12even if that is only kind of a vague wish. That is that
13it says.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I phrase the question slightly more to the point,
15therefore? It is my fault. If there had been in
16existence to the knowledge of the Supreme Party court a
17Fuhrer order at any time the previous evening directing
18that the outrages should take place, whatever the nature
19of those outrages was, would the Party court not have
20mentioned it in this judgment as being a mitigating
21factor?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That they were to take place or that they
23were not?
24 MR IRVING:     They were to take place. If there had been, in
25other words, a triggering order by Hitler which is ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I do not think anyone has ever suggested

.   P-113



 1there was a Hitler order that these outrages occurred.
 2 MR IRVING:     Or a clear expression of the Fuhrer's will.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor does this document suggest that there
 4was. It talks about the will of the leadership, and that
 5is, as I understand it, the way it is put. He did not
 6give an order for Kristallnacht to occur.
 7 MR IRVING:     I think this will be useful, my Lord -- this is one
 8of the documents which I provided as a translation to your
 9Lordship in toto, an official translation.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be very helpful because it is
11heavy weather going through German for me.
12 MR IRVING:     It is worse, my Lord. It is lawyers' German, and
13the fact that most of the concentration camp criminals
14were lawyers is a fact I have mentioned before. My Lord,
15would this be a suitable place to pause?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it probably is.
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
18(2.05 p.m.)
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Can I mention something it has to do with the
21timing of evidence in this case. According to an
22indication given by Mr Irving earlier this week, I think
23either Monday or maybe yesterday but I think Monday, we
24expected that Professor Evans would be free to leave
25sometime tomorrow.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

.   P-114



 1 MR RAMPTON:     We were told a day and a half I think. It is
 2quite apparent that that is not now going to be the case,
 3or probably is not going to be the case. That involves
 4the following possible consequences. One that we have to
 5sit on Friday, and two, and this is more serious, that
 6beyond Monday lunch time Professor Evans' academic life is
 7going to be a wreck if he has stay on here. It has the
 8further knock on consequence that I have other
 9professional witnesses, Dr Longerich and Professor Funke
10who are also scheduled for particular dates to fit in with
11their academic obligations. I cannot really say any more
12than that but I am very concerned at the slow pace.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I slightly blame myself. I should have
14possibly taken a firmer line beyond giving repeated hints
15in the first two days of cross-examination, which I do
16still regard as having been rather, not beside the point,
17that is putting it too high. But rather peripheral.
18Shall I ask Mr Irving what his plan is?
19 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then we can think ahead and work out what the
21timetable will be.
22 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton has very cleverly pre-empted what I was
23about to say myself by way of submission. It is true that
24a few days ago I anticipated two and a half days would
25cover this, and I attach no blame to your Lordship, if
26I can put it like that, that this witness has sometimes

.   P-115



 1become so prolix in his answers. I have repeatedly tried
 2to curtail the witness's answers, which have sometimes
 3rambled on and on.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us seek to apportion blame. What
 5is the prognosis?
 6 MR IRVING:     The prognosis is that I was going to ask your
 7Lordship, particularly in view of what I would call it, a
 8threat uttered by Mr Rampton that he would take certain
 9other matters that are contained in the report as being
10agreed or accepted by me unless I did challenge them. In
11that case I really have to have the time to deal with them
12seriatim unless your Lordship rules otherwise.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will tell you this straight, as it were.
14I have found extremely enlightening the cross-examination
15that has taken place over the latter part of yesterday
16afternoon and this morning. So I am not going to give you
17any encouragement to skip things. Professor Evans is a
18pretty key witness.
19 MR IRVING:     May I make a proposal then, my Lord?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     Clearly, this is going to take more than another
22half a day this afternoon and another half day tomorrow to
23deal with the remaining matters. I am very cognisant of
24the fact that Professor Evans has his own academic
25commitments that he has to return to, but I do not know
26whether the procedure will permit him to return for the

.   P-116



 1cross-examination to be continued.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is that, if he has to, he
 3has to. I would prefer that your cross-examination is
 4carried on and completed in one go, as it were.
 5 MR IRVING:     I have to say straight away that I would not be
 6physically capable of sitting on Friday, for two reasons.
 7Quite physically the burden on me is becoming very
 8serious.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you say that, I do not even need to ask
10you to say any more because I accept that. Indeed,
11I think everybody else finds it essential to have a day to
12catch up.
13 MR IRVING:     It is useless less if I do not come properly
14prepared.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we deal with it this way? Do you think
16you will be finished with your cross-examination by close
17of play tomorrow?
18 MR IRVING:     Of this witness?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     The simple answer is no, not at the present rate.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would prefer it that we did take
22Friday as a non-court day and that we did, if Professor
23Evans can bear it, continue him and conclude him hopefully
24on Monday of next week unless that is going to throw
25Dr Longerich into confusion.
26 MR RAMPTON:     In fact both Dr Longerich and Professor Funke are

.   P-117



 1here. I do not have instructions from them at the moment
 2about what their availability is for next week. I was
 3hoping we might actually finish the evidence next week or
 4early the week after. It does not look now as if we
 5shall.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was hoping it too.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I was hoping so, but it does not look like it now
 8because I have three quarters of a day's cross-examination
 9of Mr Irving left, to be fitted in at some stage. I do
10not mind when. I will have to see if Professor Funke, for
11example, can come back at the beginning of the week after
12next if required, and I just do not know the answer to
13that at the moment.
14     What I would invite your Lordship to do is two
15things: Invite Mr Irving and indeed, if necessary, rule
16that he must confine himself to the questions which really
17matter. That is to say, for example, in relation to
18Reichskristallnacht, the original documents and the
19accusations which Professor Evans makes about Mr Irving's
20interpretation or use of those original documents.
21I would also invite your Lordship to ask Professor Evans
22just how problematical next week is, so far as he is
23concerned.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The first of those suggestions is difficult,
25because we are now dealing with the meat of Professor
26Evans' report. There are various ways of

.   P-118



 1cross-examining. Sometimes it is not a bad idea to pick a
 2little hole and use it to undermine the witness. I do not
 3think myself that that is the best way of cross-examining
 4this witness on this sort of material, but that is in the
 5end for Mr Irving.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I will be blunt, if I may. I do think that the
 7first three quarters, 75 per cent, of this
 8cross-examination has been a complete waste of time, if
 9I may respectfully say so. I deeply mind about that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to say this, because I think it is
11fair to say it in defence of Mr Irving. The first 150
12pages of that report are there.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Sure.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not Mr Irving's fault that they are
15there, and I would have wished that they were not there.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, all right.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will say no more but I will now ask
18Professor Evans, what about Monday? Are your students all
19going to fail their exams?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Monday morning is all right, my Lord, but some of my
21students have an exam next week. I have five lectures to
22give. I have presumed an enormous amount on the goodwill
23of my colleagues for rescheduling lectures and classes.
24As you appreciate, Cambridge has rather a short term and
25we already halfway through it effectively. I put all my
26teaching into the last part of term.

.   P-119



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what about Monday afternoon? That is what
 2we are really talking about.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Monday afternoon I would find very difficult. I have
 4commitments in the late afternoon.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From your point of view, there is everything
 6to be said for getting shot of this altogether?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      My preference would be to sit on Friday but I quite
 8understand the reasons why we cannot.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a strain being a witness day after day
10but it is also a very considerable strain cross-examining
11day after day, probably worse.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course. I really would find it extremely difficult to
13appear here on Tuesday or indeed any day after next
14Tuesday for the following three weeks.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am going to suggest is, if you can
16possibly do so, would you mind trying to free Monday
17afternoon and we will try, even if we have to sit a bit
18late, to finish you altogether. I hope that is not
19unrealistic but it does mean we have to keep a foot on the
20accelerator.
21 MR IRVING:     It does provide me with one extra day.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I can then tell your Lordship that, so far as Dr
23Longerich is concerned, the only day next week which is
24impossible is Thursday. So we could use that as the day
25off.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he should be over and done with by

.   P-120



 1then.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I agree. I do not think he should take more than
 3a day myself, but there it is. It is not in my hands.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I will not require of Mr Irving is that
 5he goes over the same points with Mr Longerich as he has
 6been through with Professor Evans.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No. The second half of Longerich is almost
 8entirely swept aside by Professor Browning.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not saying you should not, but I am
10saying you do not need to.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. We shall be using Dr Longerich's
12"Germanness", if I can put it like that, the way that we
13could not with Professor Browning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sure.
15 MR RAMPTON:     After that, I will see where Professor Funke can
16be fitted in either later next week or the beginning of
17the week after.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One problem about sitting too long is that
19the transcriber who, if I may take the opportunity of
20saying so, has done an extremely good job, really cannot
21last, I suspect, for more than two and a half hours.
22Shall we press on.
23 MR IRVING:     I will try and phrase my questions on the remaining
24days in a way that they can only be answered with short
25answers.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not feel you have to gallop but could you

.   P-121



 1could bear in mind that the big picture matters.
 2 MR IRVING:     Professor Evans, on page 276 you refer to yet
 3another of my witness with whom you find disfavour,
 4Mr Hederich.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      You call his testimony highly unreliable on the basis that
 7no other witness claimed that Hitler made a speech before
 8Goebbels. I am referring to paragraph 5 on page 276.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can I draw your attention to the actual text of what he
11says in the footnote?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Was vorher Hitler selbst gesagt hatte..."
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that any reference to Hitler making a speech?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It appears to be.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not just Hitler having said something? Is that the
18only reason why you discount this witness's testimony?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not. You will have to tell me what you use it
20for.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Turn it page 277, at the beginning of paragraph 6 you say:
22"So Hederich falsely claimed that Goebbels's speech
23contradicted a previous speech made by Hitler".
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      When all that we are certain of is that Hederich just said
26that Goebbels' speech appear to fly in the face of

.   P-122



 1something that Hitler had said previously.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not something he said. It is what the translation
 3----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Was vorher Hitler selbst gesagt hatte..."?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. As I say in my translation, he had held a speech and
 6I had the impression that it did not harmonise with what
 7Hitler himself had said before.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      So there is no reference to a Hitler speech is there? Is
 9it not equally possible that Hitler arrived at this
10function of the old guard, the old gang, and had mingled a
11bit, gossiped with people like Hederich, possibly even the
12death of this diplomat had arisen and, when they heard the
13speech by Goebbels later, this man Hederich said, "that is
14funny, it does not sound like what Hitler said to me"?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is all speculation.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      But you agree that there is no reference to a speech?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He does not say Hitler's speech, no. He says Dr Goebbels
18held an address and I had the impression that it did not
19harmonize with what Hitler himself had said before. It
20seems to me to be a reference to a previous speech.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is the only reason why you say Hederich is a suspect
22source because he refers to a speech which did not take
23place?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you give any other reason?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is really the use that you make of it. This is an

.   P-123



 1interrogation of Hederich, who is an old Nazi. He is a
 2sort of censor.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are we going to rule out everybody who is an old Nazi as a
 4possible source?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think one has to regard postwar interrogations of these
 6people. This is an interrogation.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was Rudolf Hess an old Nazi?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is an interrogation in Nuremberg on 16th April 1947,
 9and you yourself have cast serious doubts upon
10interrogations conducted at Nuremberg, but, presumably
11because this one you regard as being favourable to your
12point of view, you do not raise those doubts there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      The fact is that all----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is another piece of postwar testimony.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The tissue of lies and distortion and manipulation, all
16the rest of it. We know the speech.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the point on Hederich.
18 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Before we go on to the next question, one reason
20why we do not proceed as quickly as one might like,
21I suspect, is that Mr Irving never lets Professor Evans
22finish an answer without interrupting.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on. That has happened
24occasionally, I agree. Let us move on.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It happened just now.
26 MR IRVING:     Without interrupting, can I have an answer, please,

.   P-124



 1to the following question? We are now in paragraph 8 on
 2page 278.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      You dispute the allegation in my book, or the statement in
 5my book, that Goebbels spent much of the night making
 6telephone calls to try and undo the damage.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do I have no evidence for saying that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No reliable evidence.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put the evidence to him, Mr Irving, and then
11we will see what it amounts to.
12 MR IRVING:     Is the evidence given by Hitler's other adjutant'
13Fritz Wiedemann in writing in his own manuscript on board
14a ship in February 1939 as he sails to a new life in the
15United States not evidence?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I cite this, do I not, on page 278?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      You discount it. You say, OK, Mr Irving had evidence but
18again this is another piece I am going to discount because
19----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am afraid, I am sorry to interrupt you ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have read it. It is hearsay.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is hearsay, it is reporting gossip. The fact that
23he is who he is is neither here nor there. It says it is
24reliably reported that Goebbels as well repeatedly
25telephoned from Munich during the night's worst outrages.
26It is hearsay. That is why I do not give much credence to

.   P-125



 1it.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      If Hitler's adjutant Fritz Wiedemann -- who had been in
 3fact his adjutant in World War I too had he not?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Fritz Wiedemann writes that it is reliably reported, and
 6he writes this in his own handwriting and I am the first
 7historian to have found it and deciphered it and used it,
 8that Goebbels spent much of the night making these phone
 9calls to stop the worst of the atrocities, and there is no
10value at all to be attached to that, is that right?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is merely hearsay.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Evans, does the fact of him making
13telephone calls trying to stop the rot, as it were, fit in
14with the general picture of the events of that night?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No.
16 MR IRVING:     Is that why you discount it?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is another reason.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      So anything that does not fit in with your picture you
19discount?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not my picture. It is the picture that emerges from
21the documents.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have dealt with that.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Can I go back two steps please? I am sorry about
24this. My interruptions do not help the speed of
25proceedings either, I know. I am perhaps not as quick on
26the ball as I should be, but I notice now that what this

.   P-126



 1Hederich business arises from is it arises directly from
 2the text of Mr Irving's book Goebbels at page 274. I see
 3now why Professor Evans used the form of words that he did
 4about a speech by Hitler. Right at the bottom of the page
 5before the indented quotation Mr Irving writes this:
 6"Several people who heard Goebbels' firebrand speech were
 7uncomfortable. Karl Hederich, one of his department
 8heads, felt that it conflicted with the tenor of Hitler's
 9speech".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think I have the point. That is
11based on nothing more than -- and I say this rather
12rudely to Mr Irving -- the reference to what Hederich had
13understood Hitler to have said.
14 MR RAMPTON:     The whole cross-examination was based upon the
15premise that it was Professor Evans who illegitimately
16turned that passage in the German into a speech by
17Hitler. It was not he at all.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did realize it was really the other way
19round.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I had not. I was a bit slow.
21 MR IRVING:     You do accept, Professor Evans, do you not, that
22there is some evidence, no matter the fact that you
23discount it and I accept it, to the fact that there were
24phone calls made by Goebbels during the night?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me towards it, please?
26 MR IRVING:     That is Wiedemann.

.   P-127



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is hearsay.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Hearsay is acceptable in civil cases. Do you accept also
 3that there were phone calls from Hitler made to Goebbels
 4on the evidence of the eyewitnesses like von Below, the
 5Adjutants, that Hitler telephoned Goebbels to express his
 6disfavour?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Could you point me towards the piece of evidence you are
 8referring to, please?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is not evidence. This is the von Below interview
10which was put to you this morning, the transcript.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right. No, I do not because the von Below memoirs say
12that he was not in the room when Hitler made a phone call.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you saying that none of those three sources states
14that he was furious with Goebbels, he made a frightful
15scene with Goebbels?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I am not. I am saying the sources were unreliable.
17We have been over this, Mr Irving.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      You will see the point of this in a minute. Then there
19was a conference between Hitler and Goebbels by phone
20about the situation. That is what von Below says. Is
21that not right? He saw this?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where is this?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is on page 4 of the bundle.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Assume it is there. I would have thought it
25was pretty obvious they would have spoken on the
26telephone.

.   P-128



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     There is a reason for this, my Lord. We now come
 3to the question of why Goebbels felt it necessary to draft
 4an order which he issued later on in the following
 5morning, or you say the afternoon, do you not?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You are referring to the next day, as it were, now?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is right. We are now after midnight.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well after. We are now into the daylight hours, as it
 9were, or perhaps that is dawn.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, we are after midnight.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly what time are we talking about, Mr Irving?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the document?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     First of all, I am saying, do you accept that there
15is one statement at least, namely by von Below, that
16Hitler telephoned Goebbels about the situation during the
17night hours? This on page 4 of the interview.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Assume that.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Yes. If therefore, and I now ask you to look at
21the little bundle of documents which has the anodnung in,
22if you still have it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L2, tab 1, page 10.
24 MR IRVING:     If therefore on the following day, 10th November,
25at some time Goebbels issues this order ----
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is 10th November.

.   P-129



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is the one immediately following the anodnung?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is the actual order issued by Goebbels, is it issued
 4to all the Kreisleiters and all Kreispropagandaleiters,
 5which are the district propaganda officials?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the document say, I refer to my announcement today
 8concerning ending the anti-Jewish demonstrations, and so
 9on?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just go on, concerning the anti-Jewish
11demonstrations and actions which have already also been
12published in the press and by radio.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And preceding that is the press notice which, according to
15the footnote here, was issued at 4 o'clock in the
16afternoon.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are going to deal with that time in a minute.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you accept therefore that it is likely that a
20telephone conversation from Hitler to Goebbels was
21concerning the drafting of such a stop order, or stop
22orders, with the maximum possible dispatch?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      A telephone conversation, according to Goebbels' diary, on
24the morning of the 10th, before they met to finalise the
25order in the Osterea restaurant.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      On page 282 of your report we now look at how that order

.   P-130



 1came around.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that, when Hitler and Goebbels talked, it is
 4reported in the diary entry and no decision had yet been
 5taken.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      You say that, following this first conversation with
 8Hitler, on the morning of 10th November, Goebbels drafted
 9an order to bring the pogrom to a halt?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You quote his diary entry written on the following day
12referring to the morning of the 10th, "I prepared an order
13that put an end to the actions, I report to the Fuhrer at
14the Osterea".
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not extremely likely on the balance of probabilities
17that he prepared the order on the basis of his
18conversations with Hitler, whether in person or by
19telephone, and he then took the draft order round at
20Hitler's request to him at that restaurant?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is how I read it, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      So Hitler had ordered everything to stop?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     On the morning of the 10th?
25 MR IRVING:     On the morning of the 10th, yes, my Lord. Why did
26they take this decision to stop everything then? Had

.   P-131



 1things got out of hand? Had the forest fire suddenly
 2developed on to a scale that they began to fear they could
 3not halt it?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let us just get quite clear when the order went out.
 5 MR JUSTICE IRVING:     4.00 pm.
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It went out, in my view, in the afternoon of the 10th.
 7I think they decided that the action was complete. That
 8is to say that the synagogues had been burnt down, the
 9shops had been destroyed and wrecked, people were in the
10course of being arrested, and it was time to call it to an
11end.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, can I ask you where you get 4 pm from?
13I know it is there.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At the foot of page 10 of this file it says
1510th November and then gives a reference for it.
16 MR IRVING:     I am looking for it in the expert report.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it matter where it is?
18 MR IRVING:     Well, yes, because there is a footnote.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 10, L2, tab 1.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     Because I have said that that order was issued at
2210 a.m. that morning, my Lord, and I wanted to check the
23actual source.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do you get the 10 a.m. from?
25 MR IRVING:     That is why I wanted to check the actual source for
26it in the book, which is a radio monitoring report,

.   P-132



 1I believe.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ah, but this order goes out after the radio broadcast.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell me what page?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is the bottom of 286, my Lord, top of
 5287, and the source is given. I think it is a deduction
 6because he uses the word "probably", does Professor Evans.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks to me that, if you go back to the
 8document I was inviting attention to, would S 117 an
 9meldung 114 be a reference to the timing?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, page 107, and note 144.
11 MR IRVING:     Is it not correct, as is evident from my book on
12page 277, that at 10 a.m. he broadcast a live appeal for
13order over the Deuchslandsender, which is the national
14broadcasting system?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before he met Hitler at the Osterea.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, yes, 10 a.m.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Note 53.
18 MR IRVING:     This is another of your unreliable sources?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Ingrid Weckert.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it only Ingrid Weckert or is it tape recordings or
21recordings or disks?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You seem to have derived the information from Ingrid
23Weckert not to have seen the recordings in the Frankfurt
24radio archives yourself.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. In other words, I am referencing the recordings of
26the broadcast made at 10 A.m. which she has found and she

.   P-133



 1has referred to, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      First of all, I would have to see the document to accept
 3your account of what is in it or rather ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you always ask to see documents?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, of course I do, Mr Irving, because I do not trust
 6your account of what is in documents. Still less do
 7I trust the account ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know your own name without being shown a document?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Still less do I trust the account that is given by Ingrid
10Weckert, whom I explain in my report as a notorious
11anti-Semite.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Anti-Semite?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      In Germany, not a serious historian, who ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Invented these recordings, has she? Is this what you are
15suggesting?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not saying she has invented the recordings. I am
17saying that I cannot trust her account of what is in
18them. In order to be able to assess the point that you
19are putting to me, I would need to see an accurate
20transcript of these recordings. You would ask no less if
21you were in the witness box yourself, Mr Irving.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      If we are concerned only with the time the broadcast was
23made.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are not concerned only with the time. I
25am sorry, I am now interrupting you. We are concerned with
26the content because your point, as I understand it, is

.   P-134



 1that in effect this order was in place from 10 a.m.
 2because it was broadcast. That is all very well if indeed
 3the broadcast did say effectively what the order says.
 4That is what the witness is wanting to be reassured about.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the content is referenced on page 277.
 6The broadcast, while it spoke of the "justifiable and
 7comprehensible public indignation of the murder, it
 8strictly forbade all further actions against the Jews and
 9it was repeated at hourly intervals and printed in next
10day's party newspapers", which is how we know the text.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     277 of what?
12 MR IRVING:     My Goebbels biography, I am sorry, my Lord.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would help if I could see the text.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Of the newspaper repetition of the broadcast?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, does that ----
16 MR RAMPTON:     May I suggest item 23 on page 10? I do not know
17if this is right or not. This is sheer guesswork on my
18part. "Rundgruff" which I think is a broadcast.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that might be right, yes.
20 MR IRVING:     Can I, in preference to the recommendation by
21Mr Rampton, ask you to look again at that document in my
22bundle?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am going to ask the witness whether
24he thinks that 23A Mr Rampton just pointed out is, in
25fact, the broadcast. The only problem is it goes out in
26the afternoon.

.   P-135



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, at 4 o'clock.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Oh, that is a reference to that.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can we now look it document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If it will assist, it is the news, the official German
 5news agency. It does not actually say that it is a
 6broadcast.
 7 MR IRVING:     Can I now ask you to look at the document ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we go just quickly through it? Can you
 9give us the gist of it in a sentence?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. Dr Goebbels, let it be known that the justifiable
11anger of the German people over the murder of vom Rath has
12been expressed in a previous -- in last night. In many
13places in the Reich there were acts of revenge against
14Jewish buildings and shops, but there is now the whole,
15the whole population is now strictly ordered not to
16attempt any further demonstrations and actions. The final
17answer to the assassination in Paris will be a legal one".
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Looking at page 277 of Mr Irving's book ----
19 MR IRVING:     It appears to be the same.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- it is plainly a reference to the same
21broadcast, well, the same communication, but it is
22differently timed which makes me ask you what exactly are
23we looking at? Document 23?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that authoritative or not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is an authoritative official circular, "Rundgruff" is a

.   P-136



 1kind of circular call, really, of the official German news
 2agency in Berlin, at 4 o'clock on 10th November -- well,
 3the title, to be precise, says: "On the afternoon of 10th
 4November". Then the footnote in this edition of the
 5document says it is at 4 o'clock.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am sorry, Mr Irving, but that may have
 7clarified that point.
 8 MR IRVING:     Well, it would have clarified it even better if the
 9witness had looked at the document at which you were
10looking at previously, the 10th November, in the little
11bundle I gave you. If you look at the big block of text
12at the bottom, the message from Dr Goebbels?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Wait a minute now. Sorry, I have too many bundles. Which
14collection is this?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The one after the Anordnumg again?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Is that this one?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      With the green ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is in chronological order. 10th November 1938. That
22is the one there. A big block of text?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Beginning at the bottom ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Strengvertraulich", yes?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      [German - documents not provided] "I draw attention to my

.   P-137



 1announcement made today concerning the ending of the
 2anti-Jewish demonstrations and actions" ----
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- which have already been announced via press and
 5radio", is that correct?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      That establishes that this came after the press and radio
 8announcements?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you are prepared to accept, are you, that there had
11been an earlier radio broadcast?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      By Dr Goebbels?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite obviously, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      And the fact that the information on that and the disks
16are referenced by the neo-Nazi extreme right winger
17anti-Semite, Ingrid Weckert, is neither here nor there.
18So you accept, therefore, you are wrong probably to
19challenge my time of 10 a.m.?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, not at all. Where does it say on this document or any
21document that we have seen that it was at 10 a.m.? What
22is your evidence, Mr Irving, for the fact that this went
23out ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      If this source is right about everything else ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      May I just say what I want to say, please? What is your
26evidence, Mr Irving, for saying that this went out at 10

.   P-138



 1a.m.? All you have is a reference to Ingrid Weckert.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Which is a source you are not prepared to accept, although
 3she is right on everything else?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I beg your pardon? I do not think she is at all.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      As far as this particular matter is concerned?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Your reference to that is the broadcast as recounted by
 7Ingrid Weckert at 10 a.m. and I am saying that I have not
 8seen yet any evidence to suggest it was at 10 a.m.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask you this? The Rundgruff that
10goes out at, apparently, 4 o'clock makes an announcement
11in the name of Dr Goebbels?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Can you comment, as a matter of likelihood, as to whether
14if that goes out at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and
15bearing in mind what is going on throughout Germany, it
16would have, in fact, followed an announcement made six
17hours earlier? That is not very well put, that question.
18Do you understand what I am getting at?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I do. It seems somewhat unlikely. It is a long gap.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Because, in effect, they would be sitting on their hands
21for six hours?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     Is it right that the passage I just drew your
25attention to makes reference to the announcements that
26have already been made through press and radio?

.   P-139



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, yes, we have said that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it does not say "just recently made through press and
 3radio"?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Already" it says.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there any reason why they would have sat on their hands
 6all day until 4 p.m.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I cannot think of one.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but you accept that the meeting between Dr Goebbels
 9and Hitler was some time in the morning?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. It seems that they communicate -- that they had two
11communications, one of which, it seems, was probably by
12telephone at some time in the morning, and that is,
13according to the Goebbels diaries, where he says, you
14know, "What to do now, that is the question", and it
15clearly ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you now concede that they did telephone.
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I do not think I have ever said that they did not,
18not in the middle of the night, but in the morning. Here
19we are. Goebbels diary says: "Let the beatings continue
20or stop them. That is now the question." And then he has
21a ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      What is the German for "Let the beatings continue" since
23we are there? "Weiter Schlagen lossen"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would have to see the text, I am afraid. I can look it
25up, if you like?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is really necessary.

.   P-140



 1 MR IRVING:     No, it is unimportant. No. Just a question on the
 2translation again.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Hauen", I think, is it "Weiter Hauen"? That is from
 4memory though.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      So on the balance of probabilities ----
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And then -- can I just say my -----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- if we now string together the sequence of events ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, I have not been able to answer your ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you are talking over Professor
10Evans time and again.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I began speaking before he interrupted.
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am trying to answer your question, Mr Irving. Now, my
13view of the sequence of events is that on the morning of
1410th November there is a conversation, looks like a phone
15conversation, between Hitler and Goebbels, where they
16discuss what to do and ----
17 MR IRVING:     Why do you think it was in the morning?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you stop interrupting, Mr Irving,
19please. Just let the witness complete an answer.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      And they then decide, then Goebbels drafts the order.
21They meet in the Osteria restaurant, probably for lunch,
22and then after that the order is drafted and it is sent
23out in the afternoon. That is my reading of the sequence
24of events.
25 MR IRVING:     The timing is immaterial, is it not?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. The time is not really immaterial. I mean, we know

.   P-141



 1that the pogrom did not start until about 8 o'clock in the
 2morning in Vienna, for example ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      What we can say with certainty ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- that orders were going out from Dalueges at 20 past 6
 5to get the pogrom going so that it was still in full swing
 6in the early hours of the morning.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think I have the -- I am not
 8interrupting; I am just simply telling you that I think
 9I have the point on the timing of the events of 10th.
10 MR IRVING:     The timing is not very important, I appreciate, my
11Lord, but now let me go on to ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we have spent quite a long time on it.
13 MR IRVING:     --- the motivation, that, in other words, at some
14time between midnight and the Osteria meeting, a phone
15call had occurred between Hitler and Goebbels, is that
16right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I do not accept it is as broad a time frame as that.
18This is the ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      I think his Lordship has said that the time is
20unimportant.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- what we are talking -- may I finish my answer,
22Mr Irving? What this is, this is the final order putting
23the stop to the pogrom and saying that, "Now there will be
24legal measures to kind of back it up". It is saying to
25everybody, "Stop", and this really is the order from
26Hitler and Goebbels, agreed between them, saying, "Don't

.   P-142



 1not do anything more of any sort. The whole thing has got
 2to stop".
 3     Now, since orders were going out from Hess, for
 4example, at 2.56 which made it quite clear at that time
 5that the action should, the pogrom should continue, as we
 6have already seen this morning, it is very unlikely that
 7this order to stop it all was issued before 2.56. In
 8addition, there are further orders that go out after 2.56.
 9 MR IRVING:     From where?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      From Daluege, for one, and that there is plenty of
11evidence that this -- many contemporary reports which
12indicate that the pogrom was continuing through the
13daylight hours of the morning of 10th. So I think the
14time frame for this order is some time in the afternoon of
15the 10th, and it looks like, because it refers to a
16previous broadcast which seems to have been made at
174 o'clock, that it is round about 4 o'clock or shortly
18after that. Certainly, the evidence seems to be that then
19although there were, sporadic actions did continue after
20that, that the main action then came to a stop.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Shall we move on to the next aspect?
22 MR IRVING:     This is why you attach importance and not accepting
23the 10 a.m. timing, is that correct?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we are moving on now, Mr Irving.
25 MR IRVING:     Well, my Lord, you interrupted the questions I was
26about to put to him and invited him to continue speaking.

.   P-143



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if it is about the next topic, fine,
 2but if it is not, I really think we have had enough on the
 3sequence of events.
 4 MR IRVING:     So Hitler invited Goebbels to come to him bringing
 5a prepared order stopping everything?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have already said that it looks as if they decided there
 7should be a prepared order in a phone conversation some
 8time in the morning of 10th, that they met in the Osteria
 9restaurant, Goebbels had a drafted order which they then
10agreed would be sent out.
11     I have to say, Mr Irving, one of the reasons why
12this is taking so long is that you are constantly asking
13the same questions again and again and again, and I have
14to give the same answers again and again.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And I am asking you to move on. Please,
16Mr Irving, move on.
17 MR IRVING:     I do not really wish to be lectured by the witness
18on how I conduct my cross-examination.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, take the lecture from me and please,
20please, move on.
21 MR IRVING:     So what dispute do you have with -- and this is
22serious -- the way that I described this particular matter
23then?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know exactly what the dispute and the
25criticism is and I know what your answer to it is,
26Mr Irving, and I am now going to rule that you move to the

.   P-144



 1next topic.
 2 MR IRVING:     Will you look at page 280? You accuse me of not
 3quoting a passage from the diary of Ulrich von Hassell?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry. Can I just clear my desk a bit?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the "My dear Popitz, do you want me to
 6punish the Fuhrer"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, exactly.
 8 MR IRVING:     You state that in a conversation -- I will read the
 9whole passage. I am sorry, I want you to look at page
10283. It is again the Hassell diary. This is the last
11change. Page 293 of the expert report, my Lord. It is
12the Hassell diary that you are referring to in paragraph
132, is it not?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is again concerning the involvement of Hitler and
16Hassell -- this again is hearsay -- Hassell is reporting
17what he is being told by his friend, the Bruckmanns, is
18that right?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      About a visit from Rudolf Hess on December 23rd?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Hess "had left them in no doubt that he had completely
23disapproved of the action against the Jews". He is
24referring to the Night of Broken Glass, is he?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      "He had also reported his views in an energetic matter

.   P-145



 1(sic) to the 'Fuhrer'" ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Manner".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- "and begged him to drop the matter" ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     ... "energetic manner to the 'Fuhrer'".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      ... "manner to the 'Fuhrer' and begged him to drop the
 6matter, but unfortunately completely in vain"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you think he means by "dropping the matter"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I put this passage here because of the sentence you
10left out, Mr Irving, the final sentence: "Hess pointed to
11against as the actual originator", and what you say in
12your book is that "Hess confirmed that in his view
13Goebbels alone was to blame" ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but ----
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- which is a blatant misrepresentation of that sentence.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now will you answer my question?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is why it is there.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      It will speed things up if you answer my question.
19Paragraph 2, you say: "Irving omits all mention of the
20crucial sentence which reports Hess as saying his attempt
21to get Hitler to stop the pogrom had been futile". Is
22that what Hess actually said, what the diary said, "Stop
23the pogrom" or to "drop the matter"?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let us read it again: "He had left them in no doubt that
25he completely disapproved of the action against the Jews;
26he had also reported his energetic matter to the 'Fuhrer'

.   P-146



 1and begged him to drop the matter, but unfortunately
 2completely in vain."
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      [German], is that right?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "the thing".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      The original German?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, "the thing".
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you think he meant by, dis aher, the matter, the
 8thing, the affair?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The action against the Jews.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it not possible that by this time, the end of December,
11he is referring to all the persecution measures that had
12been ordained by the Nazis, the billion Reichs mark fine
13and all the rest of it -- all these petty measures of
14persecution that had been adopted by the Nazis which were
15adding insult to injury, if I can put it like that?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not think so, no. It follows on naturally from the
17notion, what he says about the action against the Jews,
18which you have agreed was the pogrom of 9th/10th November,
19and you still have to explain why you do not quote this
20sentence.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is it not quite obvious that Hess had gone to Hitler
22and upon learning that Hitler and Goring had decided to
23impose this swinging fine on the Jewish community and all
24the other measures, he had put Goring in charge of the
25evacuation or emigration programme, and all these other
26things that had been set in programme by then ----

.   P-147



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is bizarre, Mr Irving.
 2 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is bizarre, is it not?
 4 MR IRVING:     It is not in the least bizarre, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you look at what goes before and what goes
 6after, plainly, surely, you must accept they are talking
 7about the event of Kristallnacht.
 8 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, because you have to have a knowledge
 9of the Nazi Party hierarchy to know that Rudolf Hess's
10signature was under Adolf Hitler's signature on all the
11anti-Jewish measures that had then followed. Rudolf Hess
12had found himself counter signing all these orders,
13including the billion Reichs mark fine and all the
14punitive measures against the Jewish community, and he had
15obviously gone to Hitler and said, "For heaven's sake, why
16don't we drop it? We are just adding insult to injury".
17That is what this conversation is about, and it is
18perverse to translate "sacher" as "pogrom", is it not,
19which is what you have done?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is complete, complete -- well, two things. I do not
21translate it as "pogrom". I say "begged him to drop the
22matter". "Matter" is a reasonable translation for
23"sacher", I think, so I do not translate it as that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am sorry, in paragraph 2 you say: "Irving omits all
25mention of the crucial sentence which reports Hess as
26saying his attempt to get Hitler to stop the pogrom had

.   P-148



 1been futile" ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, there has been a translation, Mr Irving. That is
 3what I am saying there. I am not translating there. It
 4is quite clear that the action against the Jews, as you
 5said yourself, referred to the events, the pogrom, the
 6destruction and murders of the night of 9th to the 10th.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      And you do not see there is any possible alternative
 8interpretation in view of the fact that, as you and I
 9know, you being an expert on the Third Reich, Rudolf Hess,
10as Deputy Fuhrer, counter signed all the orders issued
11against the Jews over the next few days and he obviously
12found it repugnant to do so?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not see any evidence that he did.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr irving, my recommendation is that you move
15on because we can all read what is there.
16 MR RAMPTON:     We can also all read what is on page 281 of the
17Goebbels book which is all about Goebbels' blame for the
18pogrom.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, and he is hardly the originator of the
20criminal proceedings -- the Party court proceedings
21against the perpetrators.
22 MR IRVING:     The translation of "sacher" as "pogrom" which is
23what this witness has done ----
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have asked that question. The
25witness has quite rightly told you it is not a
26translation. He is giving the sense of it. It is not the

.   P-149



 1same thing. Please move on, will you?
 2 MR IRVING:     Page 297. Let us see what kind of spin you can put
 3on this. Line 3 and a half, if I can put like that, at
 4page 297, in other words, the fourth line?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is an entry in the Goebbels diary, is it not?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      133, the entry for November 17th. It is in a book by
 9Dr Reuth?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, 133? Yes, that edition, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you know where Dr Reuth got that entry from?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He got it from you, Mr Irving.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, I donated it to him.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I know that.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      You will notice that the quotation is Goebbels diary.
16Hitler is described as being "in a good mood. Sharply
17against the Jews. Approves my and our policy totally"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you seen the original German of that text?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do quote it there. Do show it to me, Mr Irving. Can
21you refer it to me?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we need to go beyond the footnote?
23 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord, "Billigt ganz meine und unsere
24Politik", is that correct?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is quoted in -- I cite that in my footnote. I try to
26give the original German for all my translations so that

.   P-150



 1you can check it, Mr Irving, and raise objections if you
 2want to.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      I go one stage better than you. I use the original
 4handwritten text because sometimes you can draw
 5conclusions from the way the handwriting is done. If
 6I tell that you the word "meine" is obviously inserted by
 7accident and that he then, as an after thought, had to
 8include "and our", "und unsere", because he could not very
 9well cross out "meine" because that would be a bit of a
10give away, would it not?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, there are several things ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      I made that comment in my Goebbels biography.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I do not want to give a long answer, but, first of all,
14I would have to see a copy of the manuscript to be able
15accept that it is as you say. Secondly, it does not make
16any difference to the statement that Hitler completely
17approves of Goebbels' policy.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      But is it not a bit of a give away that Goebbels starts
19off writing, "He approves my policy" and then he realises
20he has given the game away, so he then adds "and our"
21because he knows that he is going to say in the diary that
22it is Hitler's policy, because he cannot cross out
23"meine". It is quite obvious if you look at the
24handwriting, the way it has been done. Did I not make
25that point in my Goebbels biography which you read?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      At the risk of repeating myself, I cannot accept that

.   P-151



 1until I see the entry and, in any case, it does not seem
 2to me to make a great deal of difference to the statement
 3that Hitler completely totally approved of Goebbels'
 4policy or their policy, what is the huge difference there,
 5that he was sharply against the Jews, [German], in a good
 6mood.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the fact that Dr Goebbels frequently
 8in his diaries stated that Hitler had reached decisions
 9when, in fact, Goebbels had reached the decision for him
10and he then wrote in his diary afterwards that he had the
11complete approval of Hitler for this, because these
12diaries were going to be published?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Give me an example, Mr Irving.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 136 of my biography of Dr Goebbels.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      136?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      From your knowledge of the period of 1932, was Adolf
17Hitler keen to stand in the Vice Presidential election?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, this is a different matter altogether, Mr Irving.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are still talking about the Goebbels diaries, are we
20not?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      And it is the example you asked for.
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Where are we?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Page 100 ----
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I have 132.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      136?

.   P-152



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      136. Paragraph 1? I mean the first big paragraph of two?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, it is the first full paragraph.
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Hindenburg announced on February 15 that he intended to
 5stand again. Taking Hitler's decision for granted,
 6Goebbels began designing election posters. Hitler was
 7still undecided. Hitler then was announced as candidate
 8by Goebbels at a huge mass meeting without having been
 9consulted, found himself railroaded. Writing in his
10diaries Kaiserhof two years later Goebbels claimed that
11Hitler had phoned him after the meeting to express his
12delight that the announcement had gone down so well"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is this not a typical example of Goebbels window dressing?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I am trying to find the footnote here. Right, well,
16I think it is two points, the first point I want to make,
17obviously. Kaiserhof, by that you mean the published
18version called "Von Kaiserhof [German]" of Goebbels diary,
19Goebbels published a substantial chunk of his diaries as a
20book in the 1930s, particularly concerned with the years
21in which the Nazis came to power. That, of course, is a
22very heavily edited and amended version of his private
23diaries. So that really does not tell us anything about
24the status of his private diaries in 1938. No doubt, had
25Goebbels actually published his private diaries in 1938
26during his own lifetime, he would have monkeyed about with

.   P-153



 1them, just as he did those. So I do not think that tells
 2us very much.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you every compared Kaiserhof ----
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You also quote in footnote 35: "According to Vossische
 5Zeitung, February 23rd, Goebbels said", and that is a kind
 6of "The Times" of Germany, it is a very respectable
 7quality paper, "said he was 'authorized' to tell them of
 8Hitler's decision to stand". And the source for the idea
 9that Goebbels is to be blamed for the fait accompli is
10cited here as the so-called "Opposition within the
11NSDAP". That seemed to me a really very thin tissue of
12evidence on which to base ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you ever compared ----
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- this rather far reaching conclusion that Goebbels was
15constantly ascribing to Hitler decisions he had taken
16himself without Hitler actually knowing about them.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you ever compared the Kaiserhof edition, in other
18words, the published edition with the original handwritten
19edition as published now recently?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you evidence for saying that they were monkeyed
22around with?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, yes, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Apart from changing "Hitler" to "Fuhrer" and various
25obvious cosmetic changes? Can you give one example?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Large amounts were left out, of course, lots about

.   P-154



 1Hitler's -- Goebbels' private life were left out.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that monkeying around?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course it is, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would you now go, please, to page 284 ----
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Oh, back again.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- where we come to a more obvious example of what I am
 7getting at? The first line of page 284 of your expert
 8report: "Other evidence supports the diary", you begin
 9this paragraph. "On the afternoon of 10th November, after
10he had reported to Hitler, Goebbels informed the Nazi
11Party chief of Munich-Upper Bavaria that the pogrom was to
12be terminated and added" -- so this is a message, right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      Of the Adjutant to the Gauleiter recording this?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      And he adds: "'The Fuhrer sanctions the measures taken so
17far and declares that he does not disapprove of them'"?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Now what do you infer from the way that has been put in
20that message?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Double negative?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Apart from the grammatical observation?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is pretty clear to me.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you infer that there is a belief in certain quarters
25that Goebbels is alibiing in here, that he is saying that
26he acted on Hitler's behalf? Why would this have been

.   P-155



 1recorded, do you think, in this form?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because Hitler's views were important in the Third Reich,
 3it seems to me.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      So Goebbels has informed the Nazi Party chief of Munich,
 5who would normally have no reason to believe otherwise,
 6and said, "Oh, by the way, everything we did last night is
 7OK. It is in line with what the Fuhrer wanted", and this
 8is not an unusual message, in your view?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I mean, it seems a reasonable thing to say, "The
10Fuhrer sanctions the measures taken so far".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      You do not read into this exactly the same as he is
12putting in his diaries ----
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It puts them, it puts the recipients in the clear as to
14what they had done which they must have been, obviously,
15very worried about since there was a great deal of talk
16about involving the State prosecution and so on, as we
17have seen from the Party tribunal report. There must have
18been a great deal of concern about it amongst those who
19carried them out. After all, these were beatings up,
20murders, massive destruction of property, arson, looting,
21all these sorts of things. So it seems to me important
22that the people who had done this were reassured in the
23eyes of the Nazi leadership that Hitler sanctioned the
24measures.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is a document that you accept at face value without
26the slightest textual criticism or content criticism at

.   P-156



 1all? You do not ask yourself why that odd sentence is in
 2it?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have just given my criticism, as it were.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      In other words, your criticism is no criticism. You
 5accept it at face value?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, criticism in the sense of critique or source
 7criticism when you ask why a document has been issued.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      You do not say to yourself: "This is exactly the same
 9kind of thing as Goebbels writes in his diaries, saying
10'What we did was entirely with the Fuhrer's consent'" and
11you say to yourself, "Why does he write that in his diary
12then?"
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have put that question several
14times. I know the question, I understand your point.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The answer is because it is true.
16 MR IRVING:     Well, page 289, paragraph 3. We are now on the
17meeting on November 12th 1938 in the Reich Air Ministry
18building under the chairmanship of Hermann Goring as head
19of the four year plan. This was the meeting at which the
20punitive measures were discussed and agreed between the
21various ministers. Dr Goebbels is present, is he not?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. You say that Goebbels in his diary writes, "I am
24co-operating splendidly with Goring". Does that strike
25you as being an accurate reflection of the relationship
26between the two on that day and at that time?

.   P-157



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, because the measures which Goring sanctioned were
 2those which Goebbels put forward and which, indeed, had
 3been suggested by Hitler in their meeting at the Osteria
 4restaurant according to Goebbels' earlier diary.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean a whitewash?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, these are the -- sorry, my Lord.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      I am not quite sure what we are talking about.
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      What we are talking about here are the economic measures
 9which on 12th November this conference was held to impose
10all the economic measures, a huge fine preventing the Jews
11from getting any insurance payments for the damage caused,
12and then a whole series of further measures about which
13I quote on page 290 about banning them from being in
14various public places, trains and all the rest of it.
15That is what we are talking about. There is a legal
16wrapping up.
17     This is exactly what Goebbels says, as we see
18when he says in the kind of closing, the message to "Shut
19it all down, stop the actions, we are now going to take
20the legal road", and this is the legal road that he is
21talking about.
22 MR IRVING:     Now we get back to the Goebbels diary where
23Goebbels describes this meeting in the most glowing terms
24of cordial relationship between him and Goring, would that
25be a fair description?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He says, "I am cooperating splendidly with Goring. He's

.   P-158



 1going to crack down on them too. The radical line has
 2won".
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that a fair and accurate reflection of what is
 4contained in the verbatim transcript of that meeting?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is a -- it is a very accurate summary of what
 6transpired at the meeting, that is to say, that Goebbels'
 7-- that Goring was persuaded, if he needed persuading,
 8that there should be a crack down in the legal and
 9economic sense on the Jews, as suggested by Hitler in the
10Osteria restaurant put forward by Goebbels.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the fact that Goring was livid with
12Goebbels for this pogrom that he had started because of
13the costs that it had inflicted on the German economy
14which he was now going to have to make good and the damage
15to the broken glass that they were going to have spend
16foreign currency on, and the insurance costs that the
17German insurance companies were going to have to meet?
18Are you familiar with those passages in that meeting?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of course I am. I quote them in the next paragraph,
20Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the fact that Goering sneered and
22said, what we need here is a little bit of public
23enlightenment? What was that a reference to?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Mr Irving, I am not saying----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you answer the question, please? What was that a
26reference to?

.   P-159



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, I am not saying ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you answer the question, please?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not saying ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you answer the question, please? What is "public
 5enlightenment" a reference to?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am not saying, Mr Irving, that there were no minor
 7disagreements between the two. I refer to these in
 8paragraph 4 on page 289 to 90. I am not claiming that
 9Goring and Goebbels were bosom pals. The relationships
10between the leading people in that gang of ruffians were,
11as one would expect, not particularly polite or loving or
12courteous. Nevertheless, the fact is that his statement,
13"I am cooperating splendidly with Goring. He is going to
14crack down on them too. The radical line has won", is
15absolutely correct. That is what happened. Goring says,
16as I quote, "I would have preferred it if you had beaten
17200 Jews to death and had not destroyed such valuable
18property". Nice of Hermann to say that. "Once the
19property was damaged, however", I go on, "Goring ensured
20that the meeting took maximum financial advantage of the
21events for the Nazi state". I quote a long example for
22this disgusting collection of people.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you were going to quote a long example, would it not
24have been better to quote an example of the outrage that
25Goring expressed at Goebbels for having inflicted this
26economic disaster on Germany at this time in their

.   P-160



 1fortunes ----
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You quote them to me. I refer to it. I make it quite
 3clear that Goring says that he had rather that the
 4property had not been destroyed.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If we are really going to spend time on this,
 6Mr Irving, I think you ought to put what outrage it was
 7that Goring expressed.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this witness has claimed -- am I right,
 9witness, have you read the whole transcript of this
10meeting, such as it exists?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, this is the Nuremberg document.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is it right that the transcript is not complete, that it
13is like every ten pages missing?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You will have to show me that, I am afraid.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a well-known fact about this transcript, is it not?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I will not accept your----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, did you hear what I said? It was
18that, if you are suggesting that Goring expressed outrage,
19it would be -- I do not ask you to go to the document,
20just say what it was you say he said.
21 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will remember that I three
22times asked the witness to answer a question, which is
23what is the reference to public enlightenment?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. That is a reference to Goebbels.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, are you paying any attention to
26the question I just asked you? What was it that Goring

.   P-161



 1said that you say was an expression of outrage on his
 2part?
 3 MR IRVING:     I will be a bit more full in that question then.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not full. It is a question of being
 5specific. If we are going to spend time on this. I think
 6this is a tiny point myself.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is, except the fact that he says that I have
 8commented that this diary entry was written with less than
 9total honesty. It was a diary entry suggesting glowing
10relations between these two Nazi gangsters.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got the point, Mr Irving.
12 MR IRVING:     It is quite obvious from the transcript, which this
13expert witness has read, that exactly the opposite is true
14that in fact they were at each other's throats throughout
15the meeting.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is why I asked you, and this is the
17fourth time I have asked you, to put to the witness in
18general terms what it was that Goring said which you said
19amounts to outrage on his part.
20 MR IRVING:     Is it right that Goring expressed outrage at the
21fact that the Reichskristallnacht, for which he held
22Goebbels responsible, had inflicted colossal economic
23damage on the German economy by virtue of the insurance
24damages, the damage to the plate glass windows that had to
25be purchased now with hard currency from Belgium, the
26damage to the German international prestige and so on, and

.   P-162



 1he made no secret of his dismay and he sneered at
 2Goebbels, what we need here is some public enlightenment,
 3which is a reference to Goebbels' full title as
 4Reichsminister of propaganda and public enlightenment, is
 5that correct?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is perfectly correct, Mr Irving. Let me point out who
 7had to pay for all this damage as a result of this
 8meeting. It was the victims themselves who had to pay.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      That not the point of the question.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It was the Jews who had to pay.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      The point of the question is that you said that----
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is exactly the proposal that was worked out by
13Goebbels and Hitler at the Ostrea restaurant, and whatever
14quibbling and cavilling and nasty remarks, sneers that
15Goring made against Goebbels, that is the outcome of the
16meeting. That to me is "splendid co-operation". I cite
17on page 290 a lengthy extract of the kind of disputes that
18they had. It is quite clear that they were not
19particularly fond of each other.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is true, is it not, that you also suppressed the
21extracts which show anything but cordial relations between
22the two in that meeting?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not at all.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have asked that question very many
25times. I really think this is such a tiny point.
26 MR IRVING:     I have closed my file, my Lord, because we are now

.   P-163



 1going to move on to the chain of evidence, which is a
 2useful way of spending the remaining hour of this
 3afternoon, I think.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What are we going to move on to?
 5 MR IRVING:     The chain of documents, the chain of evidence. It
 6is complete, apart from the Schlegelberger document, which
 7is bundle D. Witness, just so you know what the purpose
 8of the remaining cross-examination is about, as you are
 9aware and his Lordship is aware, I have maintained that
10there is a chain of documents of high integrity which
11indicate Adolf Hitler intervening, on a greater or smaller
12scale, on behalf of the Jews rather than against them.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "The best friend the Jews ever had in the Third Reich" is
14your phrase, I think.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where shall I put this, just so that I know
16where its home is going to be? Miss Rogers always answers
17this question.
18 MS ROGERS:     The J files. There should be a J2. I am afraid
19I do not know which tab we are up to.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Probably 10, I think.
21 MR IRVING:     Now, Professor Evans, if you wish to challenge the
22provenance of any of these documents, please do not
23hesitate to say so and indicate if you think it is not a
24genuine document, or that it has in some way been tampered
25with or distorted or manipulated. Is the first document
26dated August 20th 1935? I am going to go through these as

.   P-164



 1rapidly as I can, my Lord.
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you just run your eye over it very rapidly, does this
 4indicate that Hitler has ordered that individual actions
 5against Jews are on no account to take place and will be
 6severely punished?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes. Individual actions or isolated
 8actions against Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      Committed by members of the Nazi party?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Or other organizations and so on, or anybody provokes them
11or whatever is going to be treated very severely, that is
12right. This is August 1935, that is right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is actually issued by the Reichsminister of the
14Interior.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is a very interesting example of how Hitler did
16indeed sometimes step in to try and regain control over
17anti-Semitic actions when he thought that they were
18occurring in a way that was piecemeal and not actually
19steered from the centre. Of course, this is part of the
20lead up to the infamous Nuremberg laws a few weeks later,
21which then, in a very characteristic way of the way the
22Third Reich operated, introduced a legal means, an ordered
23means of disadvantaging and persecuting the Jews in place
24of these individual and rather violent actions. It is an
25exact parallel, well, not exact but a certain parallel
26there with the relationship between the pogrom of the 9th

.   P-165



 1and 10th November and with the legal measures introduced
 2on the 12th.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we continue by looking at the document and say, does
 4it continue by saying that anybody who does take part in
 5individual actions against Jews or instigates them will
 6have to be in the future treated as a provocator, a rebel
 7and an enemy of the state?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "I please request you from now on ruthlessly to take
10action against any such operations or means to keep law
11and order and security and so on"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is a well known document.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is a well known document, is it?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      So I do not really need to waste the court's time with it?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, absolutely.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not assume that I have ever seen it
18before?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You made your point, Mr Irving.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      I have made my point?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I accept that this is a document. You need not go
22on about it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we turn to 5th February 1936: On account of the
24murder of the Swiss party chief or representative Wilhelm
25Gustlov, what happened to Gustlov? He was assassinated,
26was he not, by a deranged assassin? Is that correct?

.   P-166



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think so, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      There were dangers of anti-Semitic outbursts in Germany,
 3and has Hitler ordered in this document there to be no
 4kind of excesses?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes. 1936 was a year in which the Nazis
 6were particularly concerned about their international
 7reputation because of the Olympic games coming up Berlin,
 8and the winter Olympics as well.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      You mention the Olympic Games of course. Are you aware of
10the fact that Hitler specifically ordered that Jews and
11blacks were to be allowed to take part and they were not
12to be subjected to any kind of indignities?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I am not aware of Jewish athletes running for the
14Germans.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      But it was not just the Germans taking part, were they?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, that is right. As I said, he was concerned about the
17international reputation of Germany.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean black people from African
19countries.
20 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon.
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, they would be people like Jesse Owens.
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Jesse Owens, my Lord, the black American runner, Hitler's
23demonstrably leftie.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point you are making is that Hitler did
25not just make it an all white Olympics?
26 MR IRVING:     He ordered they were not to be subjected to any

.   P-167



 1kind of indignities or any of the things that one might
 2have expected, and there is such a document in the file.
 3The last paragraph of that document is possibly worth
 4looking at. Does it say, "It remains reserved to the
 5Fuhrer now as ever, to decide what policy is going to be
 6adopted from case to case"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Exactly the point, yes. No individual party comrade may
 8pursue a policy on his own initiative. That is exactly
 9the point. That is what this is all about.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      The next document is 28th July 1937.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      That Hitler as Fuhrer Reichschancellor has from time to
13time himself bent the rules a bit to allow people whose
14blood was not pure Aryan to remain within the party and
15remain in full office. As I say, these documents are
16sometimes of great magnitude and sometimes of minor
17importance, but they are documents and they all tend in
18the same direction. Is that roughly the burden of that?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It is all about Hitler's ability to sort of rule who
20is Aryan or not, really, or to make exceptions from the
21Aryan paragraphs of the party in the case of individual
22party members.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Whatever exactly that means.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the case of Field Marshal Milsch?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-168



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was he half Jewish?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is right.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      His father was Anton Milsch, who was a Jewish apothecary
 4and he rose to the rank of Field Marshal.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. The Nazis never really decided exactly what to do
 6with half Jews, or so-called Jews of mixed blood. It was
 7a constant problem for them, as you might expect in such
 8an absurd racist ideology, where you draw the line. It is
 9impossible to draw lines.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you now turn the page, we now come to a page which does
11not really belong in this file but it is there. This is
12in fact the page of extracts copied from the original
13unpublished memoirs of von Below, is that right?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      On which I based my own description, as opposed to the
161980 book. These are the 1947 handwritten memoirs of von
17Below.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, I will accept that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. There is the reference there. I could not find it
20previously and there it is.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you type this up yourself, Mr Irving?
23 MR IRVING:     Back in 1964, yes, my Lord.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You typed this up yourself?
25 MR IRVING:     I sat in his home in Dusseldorf and typed it up,
26yes.

.   P-169



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      At least you have three dots there. I find this a very
 2dubious document.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      You find it a dubious document?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. I do not necessarily -- we have already been through
 5von Below, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you are going to say you find it a dubious document,
 7you ought to say why.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair point.
 9 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point you have just made is a fair point.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not the original document.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      You said it is a dubious document. Why?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because it is not the original. It is Mr Irving's notes
14on it, I think, or Mr Irving's account of it, with gaps.
15That is the first thing. Secondly, of course, I do not
16believe von Below. He had very good reason to lie. We
17have been through that before.
18 MR IRVING:     There is quite a lot of people today whom you do
19not believe, are there not?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not nearly as many people as you do not believe,
21Mr Irving. You said that you do not believe any of the
22survivors of the Holocaust, they are all suffering from
23mass delusion.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      We do not believe the survivors of the Holocaust who made
25quite obvious mistakes, but there are tens of thousands of
26others whom we have not heard a word from.

.   P-170



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have not seen you give credence to one single Holocaust
 2survivor in all your writings, Mr Irving. All you do is
 3pour scorn on them.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can we proceed now to the transcript of the reception of
 5Chvalkovsky?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Page number?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      We are skipping the two that we have already looked at.
 8This is January 21st 1939.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      They are not numbered pages. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is a printed document, a record taken by Walter
11Haevel, who was a Foreign Ministry official. Is it right
12that Hitler begins by saying, "in January 1939 the Juden
13Viorden Biunst Vernichtert". What does he mean by that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I have to read. This is in reported speech, is it not?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is the subjunctive.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He is saying the Jews ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Would be ----
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I guess, are, I am trying to find what he would have said
21in the original.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am slightly lost.
23 MR IRVING:     It is the very first sentence.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Chvalkovsky, who is he?
25 MR IRVING:     Czech foreign minister, my Lord.
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. At that time there was still a Czecho and a Slovakio

.   P-171



 1with a hyphen between them. Correct me if I am wrong.
 2I think he saying the Jews are being destroyed, literally
 3are being annihilated, in Germany effectively with us.
 4"On 9th November 1918, the Jews had not done the 9th
 5November 1918 for nothing, this day would be avenged but
 6in Czechoslovakia the Jews were still poisoning the people
 7today". That is the first sentence there.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am sure his Lordship appreciates why, just look at that
 9very first sentence.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Do you want to go on, vernichtert?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      I do not really want to look at the rest of the document.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us stick with the questioning at the
13moment. What is the question?
14 MR IRVING:     The first sentence is, Juden viorden biunst
15vernichtert, that is the Fuhrer speaking in the
16subjunctive, the Jews are being or were being destroyed,
17our Jews are being destroyed. He uses the word
18vernichtert?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Annihilated.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      What does he mean by that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think he probably -- what date is this? 21st January
221939. I think there he means economically.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Economically?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the word vernichtert does not necessarily mean murdered
26or exterminated then? It can mean something else?

.   P-172



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. You have to look at the context and the time. At
 2this time in the 1930s I do not think it means that
 3necessarily.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does this go to show that Hitler was
 5pro-semitic, if I can use that term?
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, going through these 2,000 documents last
 7night I came across these and I thought it proper to put
 8them into this bundle and bring them to your Lordship's
 9attention in this manner.
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But he does say in the next sentence, which is really why
11I quoted him, Mr Irving, by way of explanation that Hitler
12blamed the Jews in his sort of paranoid ideology for the
13defeat of Germany and the revolution of 9th November 1918,
14and as he says here that this day would be avenged. So in
15the future he is saying it would be avenged. So it is not
16exactly a pro-semitic document, is it?
17 MR IRVING:     Now we turn the page perhaps.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am just wondering if ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      If you turn the page to page 2 of that document, the first
20paragraph, is it right to say that from this time onwards
21for two or three years Adolf Hitler was talking about a
22geographical solution, he wanted to deport them, out of
23sight out of mind?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, we have been through this ending up with the
25Madagascar solution, this is what he says here.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      The first paragraph of this says, and I translate: "The

.   P-173



 1Fuhrer points to the possibility that the States who are
 2interested in this should find or take some spot in the
 3world and put the Jews there, and that these Anglo-Saxon
 4humanitarian weeping people states should then say: Here
 5they are, either they are going to hunger or put your
 6final words into practice"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, not quite, Mr Irving. I think that is wrong. [German
 8spoken].
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      "You have to say to them", that is correct?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      So, it is to say to them, yes. So, States which are
11interested in getting rid of their Jews should pick out
12any tiny spot in the world, flecks, a spot of dust really,
13a tiny island, and saying: Here you are, either starve to
14death or put your many speeches in these Anglo-Saxon ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      So in his nasty Nazi way he is still talking about the
16geographical solution; there is no talk about liquidation
17here, is there?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in 1939.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Starve to death" does not seem to me a particularly nice
20thing to say.
21 MR IRVING:     Is this five or six days before Adolf Hitler made
22his famous speech in the Reichstag, on January 30th 1939,
23nine days?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      His prophecy, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      His famous prophecy saying that if they start a new world
26war ----

.   P-174



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- it will end with their destruction, vernichtung?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He already makes another prophecy we see in the first as
 4sentence of this extract: "On 9th November 1918 the Jews
 5had not done that in vein. This day would be avenged".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, but it is correct that Hitler uses the same kind of
 7terminology in that famous speech to which he then later
 8refers so often, is that correct?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn the page now. We are now in August 1940,
11because not very much happens, does it? The emigration
12continues until the end of 1939, is that right?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      About how many Jews actually emigrate from Germany?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      About half the Jewish population.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you including Austria, two thirds altogether, about
17200,000 out of 300,000?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is about 200 to 250,000 is it not?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Did most of the emigration begin after the night of broken
20glass?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No. A lot did. It began in 1933 and it kind of went in
22waves. But there was certainly a major emigration after
23November 1938, because the situation had quite clearly
24changed so much for the worse.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      These two notes now are dated August 3rd 1940. They are
26from my card index, but they refer to a meeting that he

.   P-175



 1had with Hitler, Otto Abetz. Who was Otto Abetz?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You have to tell me I am afraid.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Otto Abetz was the German ambassador in France in Paris,
 4would you accept that?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sure, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      That he visited Hitler and on August 3rd 1940 he had a
 7meeting with Hitler, and the first document does it show
 8Otto Abetz swearing an affidavit saying that he had talked
 9with the Fuhrer about the Jewish problem, and then follows
10the quotation: "He said to me that he wanted to solve the
11Jewish question generally for Europe, and in fact by a
12clause in the peace agreement, the peace treaty"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      "In which he made a condition of the vanquished countries,
15the defeated countries, that they agreed to transport
16their Jewish citizens outside Europe", is that right?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, exactly.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      So again it is a geographical solution he is talking
19about?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Quite right, yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can take this quite rapidly because you
22are pushing at an open door.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not understand where this is going. Nobody
24on this side of the court has suggested anything else up
25to 1941, and not even then until late 1941 do we get into
26murder on systematic scale.

.   P-176



 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is exactly why I said you can take this
 2quite quickly.
 3 MR IRVING:     We are taking it at enormous speed, my Lord.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Let us keep going then.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      In that case we will skip the second file. We are now in
 615th November 1941.
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Right.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is apparently a retype by the Nuremberg authorities
 9of a presumably rather damaged or illegible original, a
10letter addressed to the Minister for the Occupied Eastern
11Territories by somebody in the Baltic States, the
12Reichskommissar, the Office of the Reichskommissar for the
13Ostland, stating: "I have forbidden the Jewish executions
14in Liebau because it was quite unbearable or irresponsible
15for them to be carried out in the manner that they were
16being carried out".
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Irresponsible, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Irresponsible. "I asked to be informed whether your
19question of October 31st is to be interpreted as a
20directive" ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Your enquiry". "Your enquiry".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Your enquiry of October 31st is to be interpreted as a
23directive that all the Jews in the Baltic are to be
24liquidated. Is this to be done without regard to their
25age and race and to our economic interest or to economic
26interests? For example, the Wehrmacht's expert skilled

.   P-177



 1workers in the arms factories"?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this indicate -- then the final paragraph: "Neither
 4from the directives on the Jewish problem in the brown
 5file nor other decrees allow me to assume that there is
 6such a directive"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this indicate that at the very highest level in the
 9Baltic there was no indication by October 31st or November
1015th 1941, rather, of any kind that they were floundering,
11they did not know what on earth was going on and what they
12should be doing and what they should not be doing?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not very clear who this is from or to. Can you just
14remind.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      It is from the Reichskommissar.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The Reichsminister, that is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      To the Reichsminister for the Occupied Eastern Territories
18who was Rosenberg, was it not?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right. Who is the Reichskommissar?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      The Reichskommissar for the Ostland was, I believe,
21Lohse. If this a genuine document, and it appears to be a
22Nuremberg document, then from this rather fragmentary
23document we can conclude that on November 15th 1941 at
24least there was no kind of directive from above as to what
25was to happen with the Jews being sent out there, and the
26man who is the asking the questions is saying: "What are

.   P-178



 1we supposed to be doing?"
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is not quite so. He is says he has not been able to
 3find one in his brown file.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes, which appears to have some kind of great importance.
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      You also left out a sentence [German spoken].
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      It says that it is quite a laudable task cleansing the
 7Eastern Ostland of Jews, but if we are going to do it we
 8have to do it in a way that it does not damage our
 9economic interests?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes. There is a great deal or a
11considerable amount of argument about the economic
12responsibility.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      The fact that I rely on is that apparently there is brown
14file which appears to contain directives from top level,
15and he has delved into that file and cannot find any kind
16instructions at all?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, for all the total liquidation, as he says,
18of all Jews in the Osland in the Eastern territories,
19without any exceptions, and particularly without reference
20to economic interests, and there is a good deal of
21discussion, you find references in the Himmler
22appointments and telephone diaries, for example, to the
23discussions that went on about what should be done about
24Jews who were working, for example, in armaments
25industries, you see references here. So what he is really
26saying is: "Do we have to kill these people too? We must

.   P-179



 1surely square this perfectly acceptable cleansing", as he
 2puts it, "of the Osland, Juden, this cleansing of the
 3eastland of Jews, that is all right, but it must be
 4economically OK".
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      His Lordship will appreciate the reason that I attach
 6importance to this is the absence even at this date of any
 7order, systematic order, shall we put it like that. He
 8has looked for a directive, he has looked for a decree,
 9there is nothing there, and so he is asking up the proper
10channels, saying: "What should we be doing?"
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      There is no legal decree, that is right. "Alas" is a
12legal decree.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      My Lord, I do not propose putting to this witness the
14documents on the November 30th 1941 phone call, because we
15have been over that in very great detail, Himmler to
16Heydrich, transport of Jews from Berlin not to be
17liquidated, and the intercepts which then followed.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is not necessarily Himmler to Heydrich, is it, because
19we do not know from these who phoned whom?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, a conversation between Himmler and Heydrich.
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      "Oustenbunke" of course is not necessarily from Hitler's
22bunker because there were quite a large number of bunkers
23in that Wolffschansser. Apart from those two points,
24I think we have been over that very thoroughly.
25 MR IRVING:     I am seeking his Lordship's guidance on this.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you do not need to go over that again.

.   P-180



 1 MR IRVING:     I will go straightforward, therefore, to July 1942.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     May I say this? Your Lordship might be helped,
 3I do not know -- Professor Evans' evidence on this is
 4perfectly clear, that both these file notes of Himmler
 5have been deliberately misrepresented by Mr Irving. He
 6gives his reasons for that in his report. I am a little
 7concerned that Mr Irving should think, he avoids that
 8confrontation simply by passing it by.
 9 MR IRVING:     That would be a different matter then which I would
10then come back to. I think this is properly the right way
11to do it, my Lord, that we will skip at this time as being
12part of the chain, but on the question of the relevance of
13these documents, these specific documents, we will take in
14our stride when we deal with the pages in the report.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Eventually, sorry, Mr Rampton, go on.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It was not so much the relevance of the particular
17documents. It is, first of all, their transcription.
18 MR IRVING:     These are different issues, of course, are they
19not?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and also once they have been properly
21transcribed their true interpretation or what I might say
22their fair objective interpretation. I think those are
23probably two questions which are too important to be
24bypassed.
25 MR IRVING:     We can deal with it here perhaps.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am expecting at some stage, and

.   P-181



 1I think there are about ten of them or at any rate the way
 2I see it there are about ten of them, criticisms made by
 3Professor Evans of your historiography. They are fairly
 4sort of clear cut separate topics. Mr Irving, I am not
 5absolutely certain but I think Mr Rampton is right that
 6keine liquidierung is one of them.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes, we have been over it exhaustively.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I am not sure you have
 9cross-examined Professor Evans about it.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes, if it will advance the matter.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can certainly cross-examine shortly, and
12I am encouraging you to do that, but I do not think skip
13it altogether.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, my questions are very short. It is the
15other half of the cross-examination that takes the time.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am saying is you do not need to ask a
17lot of short questions on any of these topics, but I must
18hear you put your case.
19 MR IRVING:     Very well.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not say you have to do it now because
21you may want to carry on with the exercise you are
22embarked on at the moment, but you cannot just skip the
23specific topics on which you are criticised by Professor
24Evans.
25 MR IRVING:     I will deal with it now. Professor Evans, will you
26look at the telephone conversation of November 30th 1941?

.   P-182



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you have two versions of it there, the typescript
 3version followed by the facsimile?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      The typescript version is my own very amateurish attempt
 6about 15 years ago. What we need is on the facsimile. We
 7can agree, can we not, that this is record kept by
 8Heinrich Himmler in handwriting of his telephone
 9conversations, can we?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      That it is headed with the word "Wolffschansser"?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was that the name of Hitler's headquarters?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the following line "from the train"?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      And then in a similar kind of layout three or four lines
18further down "from the bunker"?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]      Underneath that we have the words 1330 SS Oberguppenfuhrer
21Heydrich in Prague or Prague?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can I have a copy of the Himmler Dienstager book edition,
23would that be possible please? That is it. Right. Yes?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this show that at 1330 he had a telephone
25conversation with Heydrich?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-183



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does the diary which you have now just been handed, the
 2appointment book, indicate that for about an hour or two
 3that morning he worked?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it would seem -- yes, that is right.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Gute arbeit"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      From 12 until 13 ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      -- He saw an SS officer and then he worked?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      During that work do you think it is possible that he would
12have telephoned people or received telephone calls or
13actually met people?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would not have thought so. I would have thought
15"gearbeit" just simply means sat down and did papers,
16because when he telephones people it appears in his
17telephone log, and usually when he meets people that
18appears in his appointments diary. So I would take
19"gearbeit" as meaning he just sat down at his desk and
20signed forms or wrote stuff or whatever, read.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you think that when he arrived by train in Hitler's
22headquarters he would not receive, he would not inform
23Hitler that he had arrived in some way?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would imagine, no, because he had a lunch appointment
25with Hitler at 2.30, so Hitler must have known he was
26coming.

.   P-184



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there an indication of what was discussed between
 2Himmler and Heydrich at 1.30 p.m.?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is on the right-hand column, is it not?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the first line translated: "Arrest Dr Jakelius"?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      In the second line: "Alleged or apparent son Molotov"?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      The third line: "Jew transport from Berlin"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      Full stop. Is that a full stop there?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, in the edition it is. Here it is too, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the next line: "No liquidation"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      What interpretation do you put on the last two lines, Jew
15transports from Berlin and no liquidation?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That it was agreed between Heydrich and Himmler on the
17phone that the transport of Jews which had left on 27th
18November from Berlin to Riga should not be killed.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      Had there been previous conversations between those two
20parties about such matters?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not that I am aware of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn back from that book to ----
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But it may be wrong.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- to 17th November. It is on page 265.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is there a telephone conversation at about the same time

.   P-185



 1between the same two people which contains the two lines
 2"getting rid of the Jews"?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      The previous line: Conditions in the generalgouvernenent?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      So they did talk about this kind of thing more than once?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Oh, yes. I thought you meant an order not to liquidate.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      On the following day, on December 1st, before we go back
 9to 30th, is there a telephone conversation again between
10them?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am sorry it is not clear that "Beseitigung der Juden"
12means ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]      Getting rid of?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- means killing, does it?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      Well, getting rid of is ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, getting rid of, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- a neutral way of putting it.
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]      On December 1st 1941 is there a telephone conversation
20between Himmler and Heydrich on page 280 at 1.15 p.m. of
21which the second topic is: "Executions in Riga"?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do we know that the train load of Jews from Berlin was
24actually full of Jews who were executed in Riga?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      Who do you think ordered there should be no liquidation of

.   P-186



 1the Jews on that particular train, if that is the
 2inference we can draw?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I would imagine it is Himmler, because he was entitled to
 4give orders to Heydrich and not the other way round.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes. Why would he have ordered the train load of Jews
 6from Berlin not to be liquidated?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Because at this time there had been no general decision to
 8kill Jews who had been transported from Berlin, and
 9because this is at a time when the killing of the local
10Jews who had been herded into the ghetto in Riga was being
11managed, was being carried out. They were being shot in
12their totality in fact over these few days at the end of
13November, beginning of December, and this transport of
14Jews from Berlin landed in the middle of this and was shot
15as well.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Was this a matter of life and death, this telephone call?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      For the Jews, certainly.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Yes.
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But I think, to answer your question, if I may, the reason
20is because this would be very alarming to those Jews who
21were still in Berlin and still in Germany. Rumour would
22get back. It was a very public kind of going on and this
23was not desired at the present moment. Indeed subsequent
24to this for some months transports of Jews from Berlin to
25the East why not shot.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is pure speculation on your part about the need not

.   P-187



 1to cause alarm among the remaining Jews in Berlin, is that
 2right?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, it is not pure speculation. It refers to another
 4document which it is the Bruns' document which you know,
 5which has been discussed.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does that refer to alarm in Berlin?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That says, if I recall rightly, that, here we are, this is
 8Bruns saying that someone showed him a piece of paper that
 9sanctioned the shootings; they just had to be carried out
10less conspicuously in the future.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that not because they do not want to cause alarm in the
12local city, on the East, in Minsk or in Riga or wherever?
13Would not be the reason for that?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, because these are Jews from Berlin. They carried on
15shooting the Jews in Riga.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Why did he make this telephone call from the bunker in
17Hitler's headquarters? Why did he not make it from the
18train? Is there any significance in that fact? He made
19the previous two telephone calls from the train, and yet
20this was a phone call, would you agree, as a matter of
21life and death he makes from Hitler's bunker?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, as I say, we do not know whether it was Himmler who
23called Heydrich or the other way round. That is one of
24the problems with the phone log, it does not say who
25phoned whom. So it may well have been that Heydrich
26phoned up Himmler to let him know what was going on and a

.   P-188



 1decision was made as a result of that. It is also
 2possible that the SS man he had seen previously, Gunter
 3Dalequin, from 12.00 to 1.00, who was reporting about the
 4travelling he had done on the East in the SS Political
 5Division and the Totenkopf Division who are concentration
 6camp guards, that he might have informed Himmler.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Have you any evidence that Gunter Dalequin in fact was
 8reporting back from the Baltic countries? Were those
 9divisions based in the Baltic or were they in fact on the
10Eastern Front?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It is difficult to say or difficult to say who could have
12told him. One of the problems with this log, as you know,
13is that it is very brief and rather cryptic. So one has
14to use conjectures here a little bit.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]      The information ----
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But that is certainly possible if one imagines why that
17happened. It seems to be the case that previous
18transports of Jews from Berlin had been shot and that this
19one that alarm was being raised in Himmler's and
20Heydrich's minds about this.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      In Himmler's and Heydrich's minds?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      But it is totally irrelevant the fact that this
24conversation did not take place because Himmler got to
25Hitler's bunker?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It does not say Hitler's bunker. It says "aus dem Bunker"

.   P-189



 1and there are I think 29 bunkers on that site, ten in a
 2circle. I actually have a plan here of the bunkers which
 3illustrates that example.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you tell us what date that plan is?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This is from 1944, the second one. The first one is from
 6the whole covering the period 1941 to 1944.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you aware of the fact that the bomb that exploded
 8under Hitler's table on July 20th was at first taken to be
 9the work of the local building men building lots more
10bunkers at the Fuhrer's headquarters?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is the case.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      So the Fuhrer's headquarters had original existed in the
13middle of 1941 from the Barbarossa, was of a much more
14modest scale, is that right?
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry. Well, obviously it grew over the years, but you
16are not presenting evidence to say that this is from the
17Fuhrer bunker. Indeed, as he says later on, he has a
18midday meal with the Fuhrer, and then from 4 o'clock to
198 o'clock, gearbeit, it worked, and it seems likely to me
20that he would work at his own desk or at the desk of his
21adjutant Wolff in his bunker. I mean even in 1941 I do
22not think there is just one bunker there.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      So you take refuge in the fact that this may not have been
24Hitler's bunker at the Wolf's lair that Himmler was
25phoning from?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I am saying you do not have any evidence to show that it

.   P-190



 1was in Hitler's bunker.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]      Right, and it would be perverse to assume that it was, is
 3that what you are saying?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think it is going well beyond the evidence, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      What about on the balance of probabilities?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Balance of probabilities, not.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      If he has come here to ----
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      If he is working, gearbeit.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]      If he has come here to see Hitler and these important
10phone calls take place from bunker at Hitler's
11headquarters?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      But you yourself have said that Hitler's bunker was rather
13small, so it is difficult to think that Himmler had a kind
14of permanent desk there to work at. Surely he went into
15his own quarters or his those of his adjutant with Hitler
16to do this work.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      On December 1st there is another telephone conversation
18which we just looked at about the executions in Riga, is
19that right?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is that reference to these executions, in your opinion?
22Had there been any other executions on December 1st apart
23from these 5,000?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      I think that is the last one, is it not? I am trying to
25find this.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      December 1st, it is on page 280, line 8 approximately.

.   P-191



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Execution in Riga, yes. This probably refers to the one
 2the day before.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      Are you familiar with the background of that second
 4telephone call or conversation?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Do put it to me, Mr Irving.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      Can you turn, therefore, to the next items, turn the page
 7until you come to an item headed on the top right "PRO
 8file".
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      HW16/32?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      That is right.
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      This is a translation, and you can look either at the
13original German three pages later and it is item 24, of an
14intercept by the British decoders of a coded message from
15Himmler's staff to the chief murderer in Riga, SS
16Oberguppenfuhrer Jackelm?
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does it say: "The Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler summons you to
19him for a conference on December 4th"?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      "Please state when you will arrive here and by what means
22you will be travelling on account of being fetched"?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]      Is the immediately following telegram from Himmler himself
25to the same man?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.

.   P-192



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      Does this one say: "The Jews being outplaced to the
 2Ostland are to be dealt with only in accordance with the
 3guidelines laid down by myself and or by the
 4Reichssicherheitsbeamter on my orders. I would punish
 5arbitrarily and disobedient acts"?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you think this is a reference to the arbitrary and
 8disobedient execution of these Berlin Jews?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes. It wants to make sure that that does not happen
10again, which indeed it does not for some months.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do we see then a few days later on December 4th, we have
12to turn back a few page I am afraid, the actual visit by
13Jackelm? It is headed on the top right-hand corner in
14handwriting page 350.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      Right down at the bottom of that page we find Jackelm, he
17is actually twice on that page. Halfway up the page his
18name is there but it is crossed out, somebody else has
19taken his slot?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      Then at 2130 SS Oberguppenfuhrer Jackelm ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is right.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      --- has this no doubt rather uncomfortable meeting with
24the chief of the SS?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]      What do you suspect happened there? Can you look at the

.   P-193



 1right? Does is say Judenfrager?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, that is right. I expect he was told off.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]      He was told off. Is that not an extraordinary episode, in
 4your opinion?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, no, I do not think we disagree about it, Mr Irving.
 6A train load of Berlin -- Jews are being deported from
 7Berlin to the East, and it does not seem to have been the
 8intention at this time to have to kill them. A few train
 9loads were killed, and Himmler stepped in and stopped it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      And for several months there were no more killings, is
11that right?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of German Jews?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Of German Jews transported to the East.
14 MR IRVING:     Yes, I am sorry.
15 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Four days after this of course on 8th December all the
16rest of the Jews in the Riga ghetto were killed by
17Jackelm, on Jackelm's order. So presumably when he
18discussed this with Himmler on the 4th, Judenfrager, he
19must also have discussed that too. Himmler must have said
20"Go ahead, kill all the rest of the Jews in the Riga
21ghetto".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]      Do you attach any importance at all to the fact that
23Himmler had this epiphany, if I can put it like, while in
24Hitler's bunker or at least at Hitler's headquarters?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Well, as I say, I do not think there is any evidence that
26he was in Hitler's bunker.

.   P-194



 1 Q. [Mr Irving]      But he was definitely in Hitler's headquarters, was he
 2not?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He was Hitler's headquarters. The interview with Jackelm
 4was conducted in Himmler's own place.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]      We have seen from that rather fragmentary typed message of
 6November 15th 1941, the Nuremberg document, that there was
 7nothing in the brown file; he found no directives which
 8would indicate what to do with the Jews who were there or
 9who were arriving, and he asked for a directive. So it
10appears there was system ----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Can I just date that again? That is on the 15th.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      November 15th.
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      November 15th, that is right, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      He says that he has looked in the brown file and he cannot
15find anything: "Please tell me what we are supposed to be
16doing with the Jews?"
17 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is rather different.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]      In what way is it different, in your view?
19 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      The Himmler, Jackelm, Heydrich series of exchanges just
20deals with transports of Jews from Berlin.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]      But does this not ----
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      This deals with a slightly different matter of the
23economic advisability or otherwise of killing all the Jews
24in the Ostland.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]      But do you agree that this message, the November 15th
26message you are looking at, says that there are no

.   P-195



 1directives whatsoever on what to do with the Jews which
 2would cover killing them, in effect?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      He cannot find any in the brown file, no.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]      So this is quite an important episode, is it not, November
 51941, December 1941, as far as the Baltic States are
 6concerned, which highlights the fact that there were no
 7directives from above at that time. The killings had
 8begun, evidently on the initiative of the local people, on
 9a huge scale. When Hitler's headquarters learned about it
10or when Himmler at Hitler's headquarters learned about it,
11he issued immediate orders stopping it and reprimanding
12the one who was doing it?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      No, because you are drawing a false link between these two
14documents. The order issued by Himmler and the rapping of
15Jackelm over the knuckles is concerned simply with the
16killing of transports of Jews from Berlin. As I have
17said, four days after his meeting with Jackelm in which he
18told him off for this, Jackelm, presumably with Himmler's
19full approval, killed all the rest of the Jews in the Riga
20ghetto. The killing of Jews in Eastern Europe, who were,
21as it were, already there, continued on a large scale. It
22was uninterrupted.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      From this you can agree with us, can you not, that there
24was a distinction made in the Nazis' minds between the
25value of German Jews or European Jews and the native
26Russian Jews? It was open season on the Russian Jews,

.   P-196



 1whereas at this time there was still no order, and in fact
 2no permission for the German European Jews to be killed?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      At this point that does seem to be the case, yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, do you wish to ask any questions on those
 5particular documents?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. You do not any longer suggest I think,
 7Mr Irving, that this is an instruction which applied to
 8anything other than that particular transport, do you?
 9 MR IRVING:     It very clearly laid down the ground rules, that
10transports like this of European or German Jews were not
11to be liquidated.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had thought you accepted earlier on that
13you had misread the singular as being plural.
14 MR IRVING:     Clearly, if the liquidation of this transport of
15Jews was not to happen but did happen and the one who did
16it got hauled over the coals, then that massage held for
17any subsequent transports, and they did not need to keep
18on repeating the orders, the same as your Lordship does
19not have to keep telling me to be brief.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you agree with that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, the actual document says quite clearly that this
22particular transport of Jews from Berlin should not be
23killed, and that is all it said. It does not permit of
24the interpretation saying that no Jews at all are to be
25killed or that no Jews being transported at any time have
26to be killed.

.   P-197



 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]      Do you take the view that it applies to all transports of
 2German Jews?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Not that particular one, but it seems to me that one can
 4read out the from consequence that transports of Jews from
 5Berlin were not ----
 6 MR IRVING:     Or from the Reich?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      --- killed, from the Reich were not killed subsequently,
 8that this was the policy for the following few months.
 9That does not of course ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But those were the guidelines laid down by
11Himmler?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
13 MR IRVING:     In the absence of the guidelines lines in the brown
14file or in any other colour filed, this kind of emergency
15took place by code message?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      It would seem to be the case.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I sense you are about to move on
18to another topic. I have a fear I am going to have to
19say -- how long are you going to take on your next topic?
20 MR IRVING:     I will be one more document.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, fine, but I have rise early as I think
22I mentioned.
23 MR IRVING:     As you mentioned, my Lord, but I am anxious to make
24progress.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, so I am.
26 MR IRVING:     6th July 1942. This is one paragraph.

.   P-198



 1 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Sorry, where is this?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is in your clip, is it?
 3 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, I have it.
 4 MR IRVING:     The Reichforschungsrat was the government level,
 5scientific co-ordination agency, is correct, the Reichs
 6research agency or council?
 7 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]      Will you take it that this is the constituent assembly or
 9the founding meeting of that particular body in July 1942
10over which Hermann Goring is presiding?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      That is what it purports to be, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]      And that the source at the foot at the page is Milch
13documents which are bound volumes of transcripts of these
14meetings which were originally in the British Air Ministry
15archives?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]      I am just going to draw your attention to the indented
18paragraph. They are talking about the persecution of
19Jewish scientists and the damage this is doing to the
20German war effort. Goring says, and I am going to
21translate this: "I put this to the Fuhrer himself now"?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      "We have kept one more Jew in Vienna for two years and
24another one in the field of photography because they were,
25they had certain things that we needed and which we could,
26which would absolutely advance our cause at this time. It

.   P-199



 1would be madness to say here 'he's got to go'. He might
 2have been a great researcher, a fantastic brain, but he
 3had a Jewish wife and so he cannot be at the technical
 4university", and so on?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      "The Fuhrer has in this case in the field of art right
 7down to operetta level made exceptions in order to keep
 8things as they are"?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]      "So, all the more is he likely to or will he agree to
11exceptions there and give permission where we are dealing
12with really big research projects or researchers"?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, great researchers.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]      My question is quite simply, does this show one more
15example of Adolf Hitler intervening on whatever scale to
16prevent ugly things happening to Jews of a particular
17value, if I can put it like that?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Yes, it is a very small scale. He mentions I think we
19have got one Jew, we kept one Jew in Vienna and another in
20photography because they have things that we want. So it
21is on a very small scale. I do not think anybody has ever
22disputed that there were individual exceptions.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]      This invites one further question which will make sense of
24this clip at this point. Have you seen documents of this
25quality, in other words, direct, non-hearsay documents, in
26the other sense, Adolf Hitler saying: "Kill this

.   P-200



 1researcher, get rid of him, he is a Jew. I don't want him
 2around the place. Liquidate that train load of Jews", in
 3other words, the exact opposite of these documents?
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]      Oh, I see, Hitler, as it were, commanding in writing the
 5killing of individual Jews.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]      No, just documents of this quality with specific,
 7explicit, unchallenged authenticity, documents of
 8integrity, but just saying exactly the same kind of thing
 9but with a minus sign instead of a plus sign, if I can put
10it like that?
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Not in such a precise way referring to individuals, but of
12course there is a large quantity of evidence from the
13table talk of Goebbels' diaries and other places which
14attests to Hitler's murderous intentions and policies and
15views towards the Jews, his murderous anti-Semitism.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]      You will have noticed that I have left the table talk out
17of this particular clip because they can be taken one way
18or the other depending on frequently and how you translate
19them. So I thought we would just pick on specific
20documents and verbatim transcripts and intercept signals.
21     My Lord, I have come to the end of today's
22matter.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you very much. 10.30 tomorrow.
24 < (The witness stood down).
25(The court adjourned until the following day)
26

.   P-201



  

http://www.hdot.org/fa/trial/transcripts/day21/pages6-10/view/printall
accessed 12 March 2013